[B-Greek] Redundant idioms?
Blue Meeksbay
bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com
Fri Sep 17 14:18:42 EDT 2010
Hi Carl,
Your rendering makes more sense than just understanding it as *together.* I was
curious and so I checked almost 30 different versions of this verse and only one
understood it in the same way as you suggest.
Without fail, most do not render the phrase in the verse at all, apparently
getting the sense of *together* from the verb, or if they are getting it from
the phrase, rendering it only by the word *together.*
Moulton- Milligan says the following on the phrase –
The phrase ἐπὶτὸαὐτό, as in Ac 115, 247, is perpetually recurring, especially in
accounts, where it represents an addition sum, “together,” “in all,” e.g. P Tebt
I. 1420 (B.C. 114) ἀξίαςἐπὶτὸαὐτὸχα(λκοῦ) (ταλάντου) α¯, “of which the total
value is one talent of copper” (Edd.), P Fay 1026 (c. A.D. 105) γί(νονται)
ἐπὶτὸαὐτὸ(ὀβολοὶ) τ®π®α®, and P Oxy IV. 71614 (A.D. 186) where one-sixth of a
slave owned by one man and a half owned by two others are reckoned as
τὸἐπὶτὸαὐτὸδίμοι@ρ]ονμέρος, “together two-thirds”: also the Messenian inscr.
Syll 65366 (B.C. 91) ἐγδιδόντεςἄντεδοκεῖσυνφέρονεἶμενἐ@πὶ] τὸαὐτὸπάντατὰθύματα.
For the possibility that in Ac 247 the phrase = “greatly” in accordance with
another meaning of the Aramaic word which lay behind Luke’s translation, see
Torrey’s Harvard study on The Composition and Date of Acts (Milford, 1916), p.
10 ff.
I suppose most understand the phrase as the sum of all the Pharisees together.
However, I think you take is more spot on.
Apparently, this phrase is also understood differently in I Cor. 11:20. The NET
understands a take similar to your suggestion for Matt. 22:34, while the NIV
either ignores it altogether, or translates it as *together.*
SUNERCOMENWN OUN hUMWN EPI TO AUTO OUK ESTIN KURIAKON DEIPNON FAGEIN• 1
CORINTHIANS 11:20
Now when you come together *at the same place*, you are not really eating the
Lord's Supper. (NET)
When you come together, it is not the Lord's Supper you eat, (NIV)
Apparently, there is not a consensus as to how this construction should
handled; however, it does seem, sometimes, when the verb carries the same sense
as the idiom, it makes more sense to consider the phrase a bit more literally,
indicating either location, as you suggest, or, in some cases, purpose.
Regards,
Blue Harris
________________________________
From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
To: Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Fri, September 17, 2010 8:47:11 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Redundant idioms?
On Sep 17, 2010, at 10:35 AM, Blue Meeksbay wrote:
> Hello to all–
>
> In studying the phrase EPI TO AUTO, I understand it is considered an idiom, by
> many, meaning *together.* However, that idiomatic meaning becomes redundant
> when it is used in a verse that already has a verb carrying the same
>connotation
>
> of *together.* In such a case it seems the phrase might be understood in a more
>
> literal manner.
>
> We also have idioms in English that can be used either way. For instance, one
> might say, *The little boy, sitting in the living room at the family reunion,
> had ants in his pants.* In this case we would understand *ants in his pants* as
>
> an idiom meaning, to be agitated, or restless.
>
> However, if we use the same phrase in a sentence with a verb carrying the same
> sense as the idiom, we would be more than likely to understand the idiom in a
> literal sense. For instance, *The little boy, who was agitated in the living
> room, had ants in his pants.* In other words, he really had ants in his
pants!
>
> This brings me to my main question, *Could a Greek writer sometimes change an
> idiom into a literal phrase by simply including a verb carrying the connotation
>
> of the idiom, thereby showing the reader that the phrase should be understood
>in
>
> a more literal sense?* (I say sometimes, because I realize the author might be
> using the phrase emphatically, as in Acts 4:26).
>
> Here is an example of what I mean in Matt. 22:34 –
>
> MATTHEW 22:34 hOI DE FARISAIOI AKOUSANTES hOTI EFIMWSEN TOUS SADDOUKAIOUS
> SUNHCQHSAN EPI TO AUTO,
>
> Without a literal understanding, we do not know the goal of their getting
> together. With a more literal understanding, we now understand the purpose of
> their getting together. They are gathering together again for same purpose that
>
> was expressed in verse 15, that being, a conspiracy to find a way to trap Jesus
>
> in his words.
>
> TOTE POREUQENTES hOI FARISAIOI SUMBOULION ELABON hOPWS AUTON PAGIDEUSWSIN EN
> LOGWi. MAT 22:15
>
> (Then the Pharisees went and counseled together how they might trap Him in what
>
> He said.) NASB
>
> Therefore, in verse 34, EPI TO AUTO would be understood in a more literal
>sense
>
> and not the simple idiom *together.*
>
> (But the Pharisees, having heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence,
> gathered themselves together *for the same thing.*)
>
> Or, to put it into an expanded paraphrase,
>
> (But the Pharisees, having heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, got
> together again for the same purpose, that being, to find a way to trap him in
> his words).
>
> The tip off to the reader becomes a verb carrying the same sense as the idiom.
> Am I *splitting hairs* in this observation?
You may well be doing just that.
I wonder whether all usages of EPI TO AUTO aren't being lumped together without
good reason. BDAG seems to draw some distinction between usages of the phrase,
s.v. EPI:
β. ἐ. τὸ αὐτό at the same place, together (Ps.-X., Respublica Athen. [The
Old Oligarch] 2, 2; Pla., Rep. 329a; SIG 736, 66 [92 BC]. In pap=‘in all’: PTebt
14, 20 [114 BC]; PFay 102, 6.—2 Km 2:13; En 100:2) εἶναι ἐ. τὸ αὐτό be together
Lk 17:35; Ac 1:15; 2:1, 44. In 1 Cor 7:5 it is a euphemistic expr. for sexual
union. κατοικεῖν ἐ. τὸ αὐτό live in the same place (Dt 25:5) Hm 5, 1, 4. Also w.
verbs of motion (Sus 14 Theod.) συνέρχεσθαι ἐ. τὸ αὐτό come together to the same
place 1 Cor 11:20; 14:23; cp. B 4:10 (Just., A I, 67, 3 συνέλευσις γίνεται).
συνάγεσθαι (Phlegon of Tralles [Hadr.]: 257 fgm. 36 III 9 Jac.; PsSol 2:2;
TestJob 28:5 Jos., Bell. 2, 346) Mt 22:34; Ac 4:26 (Ps 2:2); 1 Cl 34:7. ἐ. τὸ
αὐτὸ μίγνυσθαι be mixed together Hm 10, 3, 3. προσετίθει ἐ. τὸ αὐτό added to
their number Ac 2:47.
This suggests that Mt 22.34 isn't "come together together" but "come together to
the same place."
Greek does commonly use a compounded verb together with a prepositional phrase
employing the same adverbial preposition, e.g. συνήχθησαν σὺν αὐτοῖ (SUNHCQHSAN
SUN AUTOIS] or ἐξῆλθεν ἐκ τῆς οἰκιας [EXHLQEN EK THS OIKIAS]. If SUNAGESQAI EPI
TO AUTO and SUNERCESQAI EPI TO AUTO are in fact redundant, it doesn't really
seem particularly remarkable in the Greek.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
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