[B-Greek] Names of Jesus Songs (in Greek)
Louis Sorenson
llsorenson at hotmail.com
Wed Sep 29 21:32:44 EDT 2010
Hello all,
Some of the problems one has when trying to compose something in Greek, is to know if their composition mirrors NT Greek usage. How does one know? One of the more touchy lines in the Jesus medley is "Beautiful Saviour".
How could such a simple line be problematic? Savior (Σωτήρ) is a simple word choice. But how about is beautiful? The verb is can either be represented by the article "the Saviour _beautiful" or by a verb "is," most probably either estin 'εστιν' or uparxei 'υπαρχει.' But of course, the word in English meaning 'beautiful' could be one of countless Greek words. The primary choices I considered are:
ωραιος WRAIOS as in "the Gate called Beautiful"
καλός KALOS meaning good, noble, attractive, beautiful
ἀγαθός AGAQOS meaning morally good, just, workable, useful, ktl
There are not a lot of sources for calling Jesus "Beautiful" as in the standard English definition of 'Beautiful,' meaning physically attractive, which is what the adjective καλος has as a primary meaning. Epictetus uses ὁ καλός / ἡ καλός as a good-looking young man or woman.
So a person trying to write ancient Greek, he/she needs to look at patterns which occur in ancient Greek literature. The TLG program (using the Diogenes interface) allows a person to find if certain structures are used. I use it frequently.
I considered
εὔκαλος -η -ον (a late adjective of ευ and καλος): listed in LSJ but not found by Diogenes
εὖ καλός found 46 times in some form/gender, but many occurances do not represent this structure
δὴ καλος found nine times in all Greek literature -- (from what I remember of the search)
καλος δη never found in Greek literature
So it seems to me my εὖ καλός or δὴ καλός misses matching the Greek idiom. There is something which I, as a modern English student of Greek, am missing. So how does one best say "Jesus (is) Beautiful" in song? I'm sure members could give me about 25 different options.
The whole discussion reminds me of the MasterCard commercial about "Priceless". I'm sure the apostle Paul could help me here, but if he is not around, how about a couple of well-read NT enthusiasts give me the right word/phrase?
It's only when you start comparing phrase to phrase when you start to decide what phrase might be wrong or right for a given meaning. This kind of decision-making is what is involved with interpreters saying "This phrase means this". But one can only make such a brave statement, unless there are a significant number of citations of such a phrase. The apax legomena ἅπαξ λεγόμενοι (Words only occurring once in NT Greek literature) leave a person stranded when trying to 'pin down the meaning of an unfamiliar Greek word."
Lexicons such as Louw-Nida's Semantic Domains of the Greek New Testament are very valuable in such searches. All I can surmise is that until I have a much better grasp on the range of such word usages in the NT, I cannot be dogmatic about much of anything. All I can do is observe and make observations. Perhaps when I'm 100+ years of age, I can stretch my neck out -- but until then, I'm willing to learn from everyone.
So ΤΙ ΦΡΟΝΕΙΣ; τί φρονεῖς;
Louis Sorenson (want-a-be songwriter)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 17:42:34 -0700
From: lightmanmark at yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Names of Jesus Songs (in Greek)
To: vstancu at clicknet.ro; llsorenson at hotmail.com; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org; greekstudy at nxport.com
Very nicely done, Vasile. I like the tune and that's a cool effect you have going there.
Mark L
FWSFOROS MARKOS
From: Vasile STANCU <stancu at mail.dnttm.ro>
To: Louis Sorenson <llsorenson at hotmail.com>; B-Greek List mail to all <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>; greekstudy at nxport.com
Sent: Wed, September 29, 2010 1:51:42 PM
Subject: Re:
[B-Greek] Names of Jesus Songs (in Greek)
I have given it a try:
http://web.clicknet.ro/vasile.stancu/greaca_audio_files/IHSOUS.mp3
Vasile Stancu
-----Original Message-----
From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Louis Sorenson
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 2:58 AM
To: B-Greek List mail to all; greekstudy at nxport.com
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Names of Jesus Songs (in Greek)
Hello all,
The audio of me trying to sing the medley can be found at http://www.letsreadgreek.com/songs/namesofjesus/namesofjesus_vocal.mp3. (caviat emptor)!
A question:
Does ὁ μεθ' ἡμῶν θεός O MEQ HMWN QEOS mean the same as μεθ' ἡμῶν ὁ θεός MEQ' HMWN O QEOS ? (a translation of the Hebrew I'mmanu El) The with-us God versus God is with us? Is there really any difference?
The use of the indefinite article is one of the last things that the learner of English learns. I think the use of the article (and it's nuances) is one of the last things a student of Greek masters, I think. Most of the little nuances go over the heads of those who read Greek daily, until someone points it out to them.
Anyone who is not Greek will constantly project the structure of their native language upon any composition. The only solution (methinks) is to read Greek
voraciously. Perhaps someone has some great ideas on how to master the Greek article?
Louis Sorenson
From: llsorenson at hotmail.com
To: greekstudy at nxport.com; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Names of Jesus Songs (in Greek)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 12:34:49 -0500
Hello all,
As some may know, I use songs to help me learn Greek. I've created a translation of some of the modern praise songs about the Names of Jesus songs and have woven them into a medley. There is no audio as of yet, but if you want to give a try, I'd love it hear someone other than me sing it. The four songs are all chained together. They
are
Jesus Name above All
Names, Naida Hearn, 1974, CCLI 21291
Emmanuel, Bob McGee, 1976 CCLI 12949
Jesus Messiah, Chris Tomlin et al., 2008 CCLI 9183443
How Majestic is Your Name, Michael W. Smith, 1981 CCLI 26007
Most beginning grammars I know of don't put the names of Jesus all in one place - but many songs do. You can find the songfold at www.letsreadgreek.com/songs/namesofjesus/NamesofJesusSongfold.pdf
As always, the songfold has the Koine Greek translation, English official text, English back-translation of the Greek, vocabulary, Scripture citations, and Grammar pointers. It's designed to be printed on legal size paper (8.5 inches by 14), folded and carried with you.
Give it a try. There is no complicated grammar -- it's like reading the Linear B tablets. Pretty straightforward
once you get it -- kind of a laundry list.
Louis Sorenson
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