[B-Greek] Gnomic Subjunctive Aorist? (was Aorist Subjunctive in 1 Jn 1:9)
=)
p1234567891 at gmail.com
Wed Apr 6 23:15:29 EDT 2011
Dear Alastair,
Oh if you were concerned with just how to render the Greek into English,
then for Matt 6:14-15 I certainly agree that the closest representative of
"ean afhte" is "if you forgive", however we should note that translation is
not exactly what we are concerned with. As another point to note, I do
believe "ean" causes the subjunctive verb to drop its tense, becoming
something like the infinitive, inasmuch as "ean afhte" is, as Carl
mentioned, similar to "ei an afhte" which is approximately "if you shall
forgive", which is why I said being an aorist does not mean the same thing
in different constructions. Anyway, Matt 6:12 in the Byzantine text-type
says "ws kai hmeis afiemen" so I never saw what you meant in the first place
until I looked at the NU text haha.. Perhaps the scribes saw no difference
between the present and aorist (for this particular context), thus the
variants.
Regards,
David Lim
On 7 April 2011 08:14, Alastair Haines <afhaines at tpg.com.au> wrote:
> Thank you David and Carl for your answers.
>
> David, yours are broadly the same as I would offer myself.
> Carl, I think your answer really hits the nail on the head.
>
> "As for why an aorist is translated into Engish as a Present tense [in this
> particular case], I think the simple reason is that English has no Aorist
> tense, but the Present tense in English has much broader range of usage."
>
> Indeed, the original questions that prompted this thread boil down to the
> modest challenge the Greek Aorist presents to readers whose habits of
> thought are based on the English verbal system. Greek writers had a somewhat
> different set of verbal markings and set of conventions for using those
> markings than we do in English.
>
> The Greek Aorist is the Greek Aorist; it is neither the English Preterite,
> nor the English Simple Present, disguised, as it were, in Greek morphology.
>
> Other issues have arisen in the course of the discussion, but Mark's
> comment, if I understood it correctly, addresses this same core point Carl
> makes here. A range of terminology exists to label "uses of the Aorist",
> which can make it look like the Greek Aorist had an exotic diversity of
> idiosyncratic meanings; but the reality is that these uses were perfectly
> natural to the native speakers, given the relationships between the
> conventional understandings of the inflections of their verbal system.
>
> I think I may have inadvertently triggered a little confusion rather than
> aiding clarity in the discussion by using the term "gnomic" in regard to the
> Greek Aorist, since the term has well-established and specific reference to
> the reverse of the so-called "Historic Present", viz. the "Gnomic Aorist".
> However, the term also has a broader reference, both in older Greek
> Grammars, and in current linguistic typology. I'm comfortable with both uses
> of the term, but I've learned that it should probably be used with more
> care, depending on audience context. I could probably have expressed my
> observations better by using terms like "omnitemporal" (following Porter) or
> "generic" (following many).
>
> Terminology aside, the original question concerned three aorists in the
> Lord's Prayer and commentary.
> Mt 6:12 ... AFHKAMEN
> (A) Forgive us as we forgive (omnitemporal) or
> (B) As we forgave or (C) As we have forgiven?
> I think (A).
> MT 6:14-15 (x2) EAN [GAR/DE MH] AFHTE ...
> (A) If you have forgiven or (B) If you forgave or
> (C) If you will forgive or (D) If you forgive (omnitemporal)?
> I think (D).
> I'm not exactly sure there was any disagreement about the sense intended by
> the Greek, just about terminology for the explanation. I'm happy to settle
> for Professor Conrad's explanation: the main thing is the English Simple
> Present, with its broad range of meaning, covers the sense of the Greek
> Aorist in the context of these examples, irrespective of whatever technical
> name we may use or dream up to label such cases.
>
> alastair
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Conrad" <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
> To: "=)" <p1234567891 at gmail.com>
> Cc: "Alastair Haines" <haines at alastairs.com>; "B-Greek List" <
> b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 10:14 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Gnomic Subjunctive Aorist? (was Aorist Subjunctive
> in 1 Jn 1:9)
>
>
>
> On Apr 5, 2011, at 11:58 PM, =) <p1234567891 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Alastair,
>>
>>
>> Alright, I will give my answers to your questions then. =)
>>
>> Why does the text have a future tense hARPASAI? Because "[he] will plunder
>> his house" after "[he] binds the strong [one]", just as the phrase "kai
>> tote" implies. Clearly "the strong [one]" is singular and not plural, so
>> it
>> is not impossible but unlikely to refer to "the strong [ones]" in general.
>>
>> Why not a *perfect* instead of the aorist DHSHi? Because subjunctives
>> usually come in aorist form, as Mark Lightman also pointed out. In other
>> words what we call tense of the verb (present, aorist, perfect...) may be
>> constrained by what we call the mood (indicative, subjunctive), and may
>> not
>> be independent "parameters" of the verb. It is almost natural for "ean" to
>> be followed by either a present or aorist subjunctive, so they do not have
>> exactly the same meaning as the indicative counterparts (even if they once
>> had).
>>
>> Why does the NASB translate both into the English *present*? I am not
>> interested in what people translate the words as, especially since each
>> translation has its own features and flaws. I think we are instead
>> interested in what the author originally meant, which may not be anything
>> more than an indefinite possibility.
>>
>
> EAN (ἐὰν) originated in crasis (vocalic mingling) of εἰ and ἀν (EI and AN).
>
> As for why an aorist is translated into Engish as a Present tense, I think
> the simple reason is that English has no Aorist tense, but the Present
> tense
> in English has much broader range of usage.
>
>
>
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>
>
>
>
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