[B-Greek] Tranlsating the Imperative: John 4:7
Carl Conrad
cwconrad2 at mac.com
Thu Apr 7 05:42:18 EDT 2011
On Apr 6, 2011, at 11:58 PM, Barry H. wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stephen Baldwin" <stbaldwi at hotmail.com>
> To: "B- Greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 11:03 PM
> Subject: [B-Greek] Tranlsating the Imperative: John 4:7
>
>
>
>> Ladies and Gentlemen:
>
> Sir... :) Commentaria vide infra:
>
>> e.g.
>> NASB: 7There came a woman of Samaria to draw water. Jesus said to her,
>> "Give Me a drink."
>> NIV: 7 When a Samaritan woman came to draw water, Jesus said to her, “Will
>> you give me a drink?”
>> Greek: DOS MOI PEIN
>
>> Whilst the essence of the sentence remains the same, [Jesus asks for a
>> drink], the way in which Jesus asks, transmits quite a different tone
>> between the translations, at least to the English reader. The text is the
>> same -- there appear to be no variants. It is a straightforward aorist
>> imperative.
>
>> None of my commentaries deal with this point.
>> BDF (SS387) says that the imperative is not confined to commands but also
>> requests/concessions
> Smyth (SS1835a) says something similar.
>> Both fail to help me [much] in identifying the different flavours.
>
>> AT Robertson [yes Mr. FWS -- he was promoted to Greek work due to the lack
>> of tornados, and another desperate attempt to get my money's worth from my
>> purchase ;-)] page 947[c] is slightly more helpful but not a lot.
>> I almost forgot Wallace (until about to SEND this email) who is the most
>> useful and who acknowledges the problem. Page 488 he says how difficult it
>> is to communicate tone in a written language. He gives the impression of
>> trying to categorise ever so neatly the different uses -- but I'm not sure
>> he succeeds entirely.
>
>> So the question is, how does one identify correctly, the tone of an
>> occurrence of the imperative? Indeed: Is it even possible?
>> Does the verb form [aorist in this case] play a role? Is it simply a
>> question of context? I got to wonder whether the response of the woman
>> gives a clue. She uses AITEW [PWS...EMOU...AITEIS] but this can take a soft
>> [ask] or a stern [demand] meaning...the context of the conversation as a
>> whole implies a request rather than a somewhat brusque command...
>
>> What would be the "normal" polite way of asking for something? I believe
>> that in several modern European languages, a simple imperative carries with
>> it no negative tonal connotations when asking for something...same for NT
>> Greek?
>
>> I'd be interested in your views...
>
> In a word, Stephen, context. The grammars are right -- the imperative may
> be used literal commands from a superior to an inferior, of requests between
> equals for a an inferior to a superior, including prayer. The precise same
> form is used in the Lord's Prayer, DOS from DIDWMI, if that fact helps you
> make a determination.
For all the effort undertaken to consult the Greek grammars, this really doesn't
seem to be a question about Greek grammar but about English translation. I
wonder how the people over at B-Translation would deal with it. The problem
with expressions of the imperative is that they are like euphemisms in that
they are endeavors to soften the harshness of a command. I remember as a
child just old enough to run chores for my betters being asked/told, "Wouldn't
you like to go fetch me a loaf of bread?" Having heard such polite commands
often enough, I once replied, "No, I wouldn't like to do it, but I'll do it for
your sake."
We've had these discussions in this forum many times with regard to the
third-person imperatives such as hAGIASQHTW TO ONOMA SOU, the
question being raised along the lines of "Why are we asking for God's
permission for His name to be hallowed?" Well, of course we aren't. It's
just quite simply a fact that "let" is used as an auxiliary in imperative
expressions in English just as "lassen" in German, "laisser" in French,
"sinere" in Latin, and ἀφίημι/ἀφίω [AFIHMI/AFIW] in ancient Greek.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
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