[B-Greek] σύν SUN: opposite meanings
Daniel Buck
bucksburg at yahoo.com
Tue Apr 26 15:16:10 EDT 2011
So, the consensus seem to be that LSJM is wrong in listing a definition for SUN
as "excluding, apart from" supported by the examples given.
Looking at this definition's NT examples:
1) Luke 20:1 "Came to him the chief priests and the scribes σὺν the elders"
The elders were excluded from the sets of chief priests and scribes, but
included with those sets in the set of those who came to Jesus; joining things
which can be separated. It is possible to crucify all the elders without
crucifying any chief priests and scribes. Or, is it possible that the set of
elders intersected with the other two sets and Luke was specifying that the set
of those who came to Jesus included members of all three sets, beyond any
intersections of the sets?
2) Galatians 5:24 "Christ's have crucified the flesh σὺν the passions and the
lusts (thereof)"
The passions and lusts are not exclusive of the flesh itself, which, like them,
is intangible; joining things which cannot really be separated. It is not
possible to crucify the flesh without crucifying its passions and lusts. Or is
(thereof) exegetical, pinning down this meaning of SUN without the grammar
requiring it?
It seems as if one first has to come to an independent conclusion about the
possible intersections of the groups being joined by SUN before one can conclude
whether SUN is joining intersecting or non-intersecting sets. Therefore, one's
translation of SUN must be predicated on one's exegesis of the
interrelationship(s) between the parties thus joined.
Daniel Buck
________________________________
From: Randall Buth <randallbuth at gmail.com>
>My question is, what are the contextual clues that indicate whether SUN
means "including" or "excluding?">
The problem is looking too much at the English text and not
enough at the Greek.
The first contextual clue is SYN. It groups "with" and includes
and does not mean 'excludes'. The SYN would need to group
something with the 'outgroup' in order to "exclude".
See Luk 20.1 and Gal 5.24, the examples that LSJM give.
Randall Buth
From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
Your example doen't really mean "excluding." It is "six men with me for a
seventh"
ἐγὼ δέ γʼ ἀνδρας ἕξ ἐμοὶ συν ἑβδόμῳ
EGW DE G' ANDRAS hEC EMOI SUN hEBDOMWi
I must confess that I have a little problem with some of this. I suppose I need
to read some more Aeschylus.
george
________________________________
LSJM
9. excluding, apart from, plus, "--" six with (but not including) me the
seventh, A. Th.283; “--” Arist.HA 490a32; “--” D. 27.61; “--” together with . .
, PEnteux.32.7, cf. 89.9 (iii B.C.); “--” Ev.Luc.20.1, cf. Ep.Gal.5.24
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