[B-Greek] Analysis of middle-passive forms (was "John 11:4 and the Middle/Passive of DOXAZW")

Albert Pietersma albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
Mon Feb 28 21:05:38 EST 2011


Hi, Tim,
As I recall Taylor does not focus particularly on the LXX. Moreover,  
the Greek of the LXX does come up for discussion from time to time, as  
the archives will show. Just keep lurking and you will no doubt see it  
being discussed again.
Al
On Feb 28, 2011, at 7:03 PM, Tim Mclay wrote:

> I've been lurking a bit and just noticed this discussion. I can't  
> remember where
> they are published but Bernard Taylor has written a couple of  
> articles in whch
> he argues that the so-called deponents all have a middle force. He  
> is mlore
> known in LXX circles, but it is interesting that I don't see much on  
> the XX when
> it is biblical Greek as well. Is there ever much discussion?
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
> To: Mark Lightman <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>
> Cc: B Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Sat, February 19, 2011 1:53:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Analysis of middle-passive forms (was "John  
> 11:4 and the
> Middle/Passive of DOXAZW")
>
>
> On Feb 19, 2011, at 11:36 AM, Mark Lightman wrote:
>
>> Hi, Carl, thanks.  Those are all helpful comments.
>>
>> I guess I would just say that, for me, the most PRACTICAL  
>> APPLICATION of your
>> ideas on voice are:
>>
>> 1.  If you see a passive, whether MAI SAI TAI or QHN QHS QH, don't  
>> just assume
>
>> that it is a passive.  See if you can find some "middle" force.  If  
>> not, then
>> fine, construe it as a passive.  I think Bryant should be applauded  
>> for trying
>
>> this out with John 11:4, even if he turns out to be wrong.
>>
>> 2.  If you see a verb that people call deponent, don't assume it is  
>> just an
>> active.  See if you can find some "middle" force.
>
>>
>> Further deponent sayeth naught.
>
> All I have sought to do in my work on ancient Greek Voice is to  
> challenge
> some misconceptions (the notion of deponency, the notion that  
> "passive"
> verbs have "active" functions, the notion that -QH- endings indicate
> a passive sense unless the verb is irregular ("deponent"). I haven't  
> tried
> to lay down any new rules and I continue to believe that voice usage  
> in
> ancient Greek is a complex matter. Ultimately it is the verbs oneself
> and their idiosyncrasies that one must know rather intimately so as to
> listen to them when one encounters them in one's reading. Grammar
> and its rules don't really have much to do with reading and Greek
> well; grammar is useful only for texts that one has already basically
> understood, to clarify HOW they mean what they mean.
>
>> Now, I understand why you misunderstood me, but when I said that  
>> Jesus breaks
>> the rules of grammar I meant to say nothing about his own diction.   
>> What I
>> meant
>>
>> was that statements ABOUT Jesus by his followers break the rules of  
>> grammar
>> because, since  He is seen to be, among others things,  both God  
>> and man by his
>>
>> followers, ordinary logic, among other things, doesn't apply.  I  
>> don't want to
>
>> get into this right now, but just wanted to make this clear.  I  
>> said nothing
>> about Jesus' own grammatical abilities because I don't know  
>> anything about
>> this.  (Not that that has stopped me before.  :)
>
> And here I would contend, as I think George would also, that I  
> misunderstood
> you because you didn't really say what you meant to say. Jesus spoke  
> in
> riddles -- AINIGMATA, PARABOLAI -- but that doesn't mean we should
> do so.
>
>
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>
>
>
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—
Albert Pietersma PhD
21 Cross Street,
Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8
Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
Homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm




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