[B-Greek] Thread closed: 1 John 4:2 and 2 John 7
Carl Conrad
cwconrad2 at mac.com
Sat Jan 1 07:01:09 EST 2011
I'm going to call a final halt to this ongoing thread. The interpretative
propositions have been more than adequately set forth and have been
more than adequately rejected by some and affirmed by others. My
initial warning against bringing theological implications to bear upon
understanding of the Greek texts involved has been ignored. Let's
start the new year without any more of this discussion, please.
Carl W. Conrad
Co-Chair, B-Greek List
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
On Jan 1, 2011, at 5:34 AM, Leonard Jayawardena wrote:
> From: kwonbbl at gmail.com
> Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 14:29:04 -0500
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1 John 4:2 and 2 John 7
> To: leonardj at live.com
> CC: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 4:37 AM, Leonard Jayawardena <leonardj at live.com> wrote:
>>
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> <clipped>
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>> LJ: On the contrary, I think that that comment does have much merit. The interpretation "Every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ as come in the flesh, is of God," does suggest that Jesus Christ had a pre-incarnate existence as "Jesus Christ." In the way I understand 4:2, "Every spirit that confesses Jesus as Christ come in the flesh, is of God," Christ pre-exists Jesus and become incarnate in him. As I explained in a previous post, Christ existed in the minds of the people of God as their eagerly awaited saviour and in their scriptures and that Christ "came" to this world as Jesus. ....
>
> <clipped>
>
>
> Thanks Leonard again for your clarifying the issue.
>
> Since you phrased well everything I wanted to say more or to correct myself - nothing much more to say.
>
> Except a small point to point out about this passage you wrote.
>
> You said: JC had a pre-incarnate existence as "Jesus Christ". I would have it to say rather: JC had a pre-incarnate existence as "Christ", understanding fully well that Logos = pre-incarnate Christ, not much with Jesus the human being we encounter in the history.
>
> Oun Kwon
>
> LJ: You may not have understood what I said accurately. I wrote:
>
> "The interpretation 'Every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ as come in the flesh, is of God,' does suggest that Jesus Christ had a pre-incarnate existence as 'Jesus Christ.'"
>
> The translation "Every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ as come in the flesh, is of God" is option (2) in the NET note. In option (2), hOMOLOGEW is contrued with an object-complement double accusative, as in my interpretation, except that in this interterpretation the direct object is IHSOUN CRISTON and the complement is EN SARKI ELHLUQOTA ("Jesus Christ as come in the flesh"). In this translation, there is a suggestion that Jesus Christ had a pre-existence as "Jesus Christ." (In contrast, in my interpretation, Jesus has a pre-existence only as ''Christ.")
>
> I have already explained this point in a previous post and reproduce the relevant part:
>
> Quote
>
> Compare with also Christ' statement in Mt. 17:12, LEGW DE hUMIN hOTI HLIAS HDH HLQEN KAI OUK EPEGNWSAN AUTON, referring to John the Baptist. The Elijah in question existed in the OT prophecies (Malachi 4:5) and he "came" (HLQEN, the same verb as in 1 John 4:2 and 2 John 7) in the form of John the Baptist. The Elijah of OT prophecies pre-existed John the Baptist. Consider also John 1:14, KAI hO LOGOS SARX EGENETO KAI ESKHNWSEN EN hHMIN, from the same pen as 1 John 4:2. However you choose to understand hO LOGOS in John 1:14, clearly it (or he) pre-existed Jesus and became incarnate in him.
>
> Unquote
>
>
> Both Elijah and Logos pre-existed John the Baptist and Jesus, respectively, as "Elijah" (in the prophecy in Malachi) and "Logos" (as LOGOS QEOU in Numbers 3:20 [LXX], compare with Rev. 19:13ff for this interpretation of Jesus as "the word of God"). (On the other hand, if your theology is more traditional, you may wish to understand that Jesus as the second person of the trinity existed as "Logos.") On the analogy of these passages, the statement "Jesus Christ as come in the flesh" or "Jesus Christ has come in the flesh" imply that Jesus had a pre-existence as "Jesus Christ," i.e., that in his pre-incarnate existence he bore the name "Jesus Christ." Of course, I myself do not accept this translation, but this is one of the embarrasing implications of this particular translation, which its advocates may want to reject.
>
> Leonard Jayawardena
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