[B-Greek] SIKELOS OMFAKIZETAI What kind of middle?
George F Somsel
gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Tue Jan 4 21:23:25 EST 2011
Actually, the person who said that was Max Müller, and it wasn't about language
but about religion. He was sort of the founder of the sociology of religions
idea.
george
gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.
- Jan Hus
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________________________________
From: Mark Lightman <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>
To: Vasile Stancu <stancu.c.vasile at gmail.com>
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Tue, January 4, 2011 6:46:56 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] SIKELOS OMFAKIZETAI What kind of middle?
Vasile wrote
<As an alternative method of study, why not study other
languages (that are currently spoken) like Romanian, where there are
three voices, active, passive and reflexive. The latter one is very
much similar to the Greek middle.>
Hi, Vasile,
You raise a legitimate methodological question, one about which people of good
will are likely to disagree. I think it was Wittengstein who said about
languages "he who knows one knows none." Or maybe Whitehead said this about
religions. Either way, it is the basis for the modern dogma that knowledge can
be obtained through comparative study.
The flip side is that Greek, like certain other things, is sui generis and can
only be understood on its own terms. Knowledge of Greek, according to this
view, can only be obtained by going deeper inside Greek itself.
Mark L
Φωσφορος
FWSFOROS MARKOS
________________________________
From: Vasile Stancu <stancu.c.vasile at gmail.com>
To: Mark Lightman <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>
Cc: Stephen Carlson <stemmatic at gmail.com>; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Tue, January 4, 2011 1:52:19 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] SIKELOS OMFAKIZETAI What kind of middle?
There is a proverb in some of our villages in Romania which reads
something like, 'Well, you have done a business like Pista with the
vinegar'. ('Pista' is a Hungarian diminutive masculine name - very
common in some places). Suppose this proverb were discovered after
2000 years: there are good chances that nobody would understand its
meaning if there was no testimony on that by somebody who lived in
those times. Now, this is my testimony for the reseachers 2000 years
from now: Pista found out that vinegar may be obtained from wine, so
he started a 'new business': he transformed all the wine he had in the
cellar into vinegar in the hope that he would make good money out of
that. His neighbours learned about Pista's new enterprise and assigned
his experience to anything that was a bad business. And now this
proverbs applies to anything which is unprofitable business.
It might be (this time I am joking...) that our Sicilian guy just
found that he could make pickles, for instance, of the grapes, and not
only wine, so he decided to harvest the grapes while good-sour.
Vasile Stancu
P.S. On middles, I believe that there could hardly be a definition -
however extensive - that encompasses all possible meanings and facets
of it. As an alternative method of study, why not study other
languages (that are currently spoken) like Romanian, where there are
three voices, active, passive and reflexive. The latter one is very
much similar to the Greek middle. We have, for instance, a verb for
'laugh'; but also a middle for of it - something like 'laugh oneself'.
However, for 'smile' we only have the active - no middle. Then
sometimes one says angrily to another who happened to have laughed at
him: 'Why are you laughing yourself?' Then the other says, jokingly,
'I did not laugh myself; I just smiled myself...' How to explain such
details apealing to such formulas as 'in his own interest', or 'for
himself'? Cannot, I guess... But using middles in so many examples
that can be found in other languages (like Romanian), would widen
one's mind on that, without having to apeal to all those funny
categories that have been defined, which prove, at times, to be quite
limited.
2011/1/4 Mark Lightman <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>:
> Thanks, Carl and Stephen.
>
> I think I understand the proverb better now. To produce sour grapes for
> oneself, for one's own interest, is comic paradox and it is not surprising
that
> the middle is found only here. The proverb in the form quoted in LSJ has an
> ellipsis, κλεψας KLEYAS or the like, so the Sicilian, having stolen something
> worthless, finds himself with sour grapes, which he himself produced, but
for
> naught.
>
> One is tempted to call this the comic middle. The only other example which
> comes to mind is the cuckold, of whom it is said, even though he is male,
> γαμεῖται GAMEITAI.
>
>
>
>
>
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> Mark L
>
>
>
> FWSFOROS MARKOS
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
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