[B-Greek] PAS and POLUS
Mark Lightman
lightmanmark at yahoo.com
Tue Jan 18 11:30:38 EST 2011
I had heard of the notion that POLUS for PAS is an established semiticism, but
did not know about how the article could affect the construction. Nor did I
know about Zerwick's "rule."
I would argue that Mark 10:45 violates Zerwick's rule, because I do think POLLWN
does means PANTWN here. But we know that the article can be ommitted with
prepositions where we would expect it without.
By the way, how would one say "Context is King" is Koine?
Mark L
FWSFOROS MARKOS
________________________________
From: James Ernest <j.d.ernest at bc.edu>
To: B-GREEK list <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Tue, January 18, 2011 8:33:23 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] PAS and POLUS
Yep--Zerwick is right on. (Not sure what "your book" means--I wish it were
my book!)
For the Latinless, Mario is quoting Zerwick, who says, roughly: HOI POLLOI
here = "all" (cf. 18). In semitic idiom, HOI POLLOI does not imply
opposition to "all"; so "many" can be understood as referring to the "all,"
who are many.
What I was trying to suggest was that HOI POLLOI could be understood in
terms of the preceding PAS; but further, that PAS in this Pauline context
cannot necessarily be equated without further ado with whatever "all" may
mean in the context of the contemporary interests of Sam's interlocutors.
Incidentally, Zerwick provides no support for the aforequoted rule (PAS with
article = ALL, without article = MANY), so I still don't know there that
came from, but no matter. My intent wasn't to single out Mario for a
bashing, just to express wonder at how these things crop up and spread
around, and to voice once again, for the benefit of any newbies on the list
who might be misled by such a "rule," the caveat, often raised here by
others, that theological, hermeneutical, and exegetical problems raised by
or touched on by particular texts are generally not subject to easy solution
through facile rules (which are often bogus anyway) or even competent
lexicography. Let's see, how to say in Latin . . . would that be "Contextus
rex"?
James Ernest
On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 9:47 AM, Mario Trinchero
<mariotrinchero at gmail.com>wrote:
> Hi James
> do you know Max Zerwick S.I.
> and your book Analysis Philologica Novi Testamenti Graeci?
>
> pag 344
> ad romanos 5:19
> οἱ πολλοί hic = omnes (cf 18); semitice in οἱ πολλοί non subauditur oppos.
> ad "omnes",
> ideo "multi" intellegi possunt omnes, qui multi sunt (cf Matt 20;28)
>
> Mario Trinchero
>
>
>
> 2011/1/18 James Ernest <j.d.ernest at bc.edu>
>
>> > PAS with article = ALL
>> > without article = MANY
>>
>> Really? Who made that rule? (Rules like this always remind me of Lucy's
>> "little-known facts." When Charlie Brown asks her how, if they're
>> little-known, she comes to know them. "I make 'em up.")
>>
>> > the argument was made that because 'many' does not mean 'all', then
>> > the use of POLUS in Romans 5:19 necessarily limits the scope of PAS in
>> v. 18.
>>
>> You could just as plausibly say that the scope of POLUS (which in a
>> one-versus-many context could quite naturally imply "all") is limited by
>> the
>> preceding PAS: "all" always has a frame of reference (all what? or all
>> who?)
>> Doesn't the Adam/Christ discussion in Romans 5 occur in the context of a
>> Jews/all-humanity discussion in the epistle as a whole?
>>
>> I don't know what "all" means in the context of the conversation that
>> prompted the initial post. If it's an argument about universalism (in the
>> sense of the salvation of every individual human), I don't think Paul is
>> addressing that question here. If you want to address it, Sam, you'll have
>> to do so in the context of a larger exegetical, hermeneutical, and
>> theological project. Lexicon entries and rules about articles (especially
>> bogus rules) won't help you (or, in this case, your opponents).
>>
>> James Ernest
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>
>
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