From: John E Montanez (JEMontanez@email.msn.com)
Date: Sun Oct 08 2000 - 18:38:44 EDT
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Hello,</span></font><font
size=3 color=black><span style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
size=3 color=black><span style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>I have never
posted anything to this list before because I am only a beginner in Greek.<span
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>I have been reading what all of you
post here on a regular basis for quite a few months now and I respect and
admire your expertise.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>I have a question
about the following that I need your help with. <span style="mso-spacerun:
yes"> </span>I know that 1 John 5:7-8 is controversial theologically.<span
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>My question only has to do with grammar
though, so I think it is appropriate for this list.<span style="mso-spacerun:
yes"> </span>I would really like to know your opinion.<span
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span></span></font><font size=3 color=black><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
size=3 color=black><span style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>HOTI TREIS EISIN
HOI MARTUROUNTES (EN TO OURANO, HO PATER, HO LOGOS, KAI TO HAGION PNEUMA; KAI
HOUTOI HOI TREIS HEN EISI. </span></font><font size=3 color=black><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
size=3 color=black><span style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>KAI TREIS EISIN HOI
MARTUROUTES EN TE GE) TO PNEUMA, KAI TO HUDOR, KAI TO HAIMA; KAI HOI TREIS EIS
TO HEN EISIN.</span></font><font size=3 color=black><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
size=3 color=black><span style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>I am not asking
that you get involved in any theological implications.<span
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>I am just interested in whether or not the
above is grammatically correct if the part in parenthesis is left out as in the
following.</span></font><font size=3 color=black><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
size=3 color=black><span style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>HOTI TREIS EISIN
HOI MARTUROUNTES</span></font><font size=3 color=black><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
size=3 color=black><span style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>TO PNEUMA, KAI
TO HUDOR, KAI TO HAIMA; KAI HOI TREIS EIS TO HEN EISIN.</span></font><font
size=3 color=black><span style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
size=3 color=black><span style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
size=3 color=black><span style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>I am being told in
an article by Robert Louis Dabney (1871) that, in the above, “if the part in
parenthesis is left out then “the masculine article, numeral, and participle,
oi treij marturountej, are made to agree directly with three neuters - an
insuperable and very bald grammatical difficulty. <span style="mso-spacerun:
yes"> </span>But if the disputed words are allowed to stand, they agree
directly with the two masculines and one neuter noun - o Pater (o Logoj (kai to
agion Pneuma - where, according to a well-known rule of syntax, the masculines
among the group control the gender over a neuter connected with them. Then the
occurrence of the masculines treij marturountej in the eighth verse agreeing
with the neuters</span></font><font size=3><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt'>,<font color=black><span style='color:black'> </span></font>p<font
color=black><span style='color:black'>neuma</span></font>,<font color=black><span
style='color:black'> udor</span></font>,<font color=black><span
style='color:black'> and aima may be accounted for by the </span></font></span></font><font
size=3 color=black><span style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:13.5pt;
color:black'>power of attraction, so well known in Greek syntax,</span></font><font
size=3 color=black><span style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'> and by the fact that the </span></font><font size=3><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt'>p<font color=black><span
style='color:black'>neuma, the leading noun of this second group, and next to
the adjectives, has just had a species of masculiness superinduced upon it by
its previous position in the masculine group.”</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
size=3 color=black><span style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Others are
telling me that there is no such rule in Greek grammar.<span
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>Please tell me if this rule of syntax exists
and if there is such a thing as power of attraction.</span></font><font size=3
color=black><span style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
size=3 color=black><span style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Thank you,</span></font><font
size=3 color=black><span style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>John E
Montanez-Lopez</span></font><font size=3 color=black><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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