From: Richard Ghilardi (qodeshlayhvh@juno.com)
Date: Mon Dec 31 2001 - 15:46:54 EST
Dear Carl and b-greekers,
MK 6:22 -- EISELQOUSHS THS QUGATROS AUTHS [AUTOU] hHRWiDIADOS KAI
ORCHSAMENHS HRESEN TWi hHRWiDHi...
[Conrad]
I'd say the evidence supports exactly what I would have expected: that
AUTOS as an intensive pronoun normally PRECEDES the substantive which it
governs, even if it may not uncommonly FOLLOW upon a personal pronoun;
there is nothing problematic with AUTHS THS hHRWDIADOS as a genitive
phrase meaning "of Herodias herself."
I would agree that the Greek is awkward--the long string of genitives
dependent upon other genitives--but the Byzantine text you're looking at
is nevertheless intelligible and grammatically sound to mean: "and when
the daughter of Herodias herself entered ..."
[Ghilardi]
I agree that the Greek is intelligible and grammatically sound, but I'm
still unsure what exactly AUTHS intensifies. Is it THS hHRWDIADOS, or THS
QUGATROS or THS QUGATROS THS hHRWDIADOS? It's medial position would seem
to indicate the third alternative.
[Conrad]
I don't quite understand the third alternative; certainly it's
conceivable
that it's a simple 3rd person pronoun qualifying THS QUGATROS: "her
daughter", but then to whom does AUTHS refer? Are we to read it with THS
hHRWDIADOS as appositional to the pronoun AUTHS ("of her, Herodias"),
that seems to me even more awkward than what we now have, and as the
position of an intensive immediately preceding an arthrough proper name
is perfectly normal Greek, why are we looking to explain difficile per
difficilius? Are you eager to justify the Byzantine text over against the
critical text... ?
[Ghilardi]
To answer your last question first: Simply, no. QEOS hO DIKAIWN! Rom 8:33
I have never given a thought (much less expression) to the notion that
AUTHS might be "a simple 3rd person pronoun". I have been maintaining
that AUTHS is an intensive pronoun right along. Your splendid break-down
of the intensive use does indeed show, in the preponderance of cases,
that the pronoun precedes the noun it intensifies. But in some cases, it
follows. So I suggest that because AUTHS is found between THS QUGATROS
and THS hHRWiDIADOS it does not merely intensify THS hHRWiDIADOS, as you
think, but the entire phrase, THS QUGATROS THS hHRWiDIADOS. Why should
Herodias ALONE be highlighted in this context? Does not the emphasis
rather fall on "the DAUGHTER of Herodias" and at the same time on "the
daughter of HERODIAS"? Thus, the medial position of the intensive pronoun
AUTHS. I would render it thus:
"When the very daughter of Herodias entered..."
But this doesn't seem significantly different from your translation:
"When the daughter of Herodias herself entered..."
Since the simple personal possessive pronoun is out of the question, I
don't see any "difficile per difficilius" involved here.
I don't know why, Carl, we so often misunderstand each other. I'm not
naive enough to think it's wholly due to the nature of the medium.
Yours in His grace,
Richard Ghilardi -- qodeshlayhvh@juno.com
New Haven, CT USA
Nibai kaurno hwaiteis gadriusando in airtha gaswiltith,
silbo ainata aflifnith: ith jabai gaswiltith, manag akran bairith.
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