Re: Syn. Apoc. (Political Upheaval)

From: Paul Dixon - Ladd Hill Bible Church (
Date: Mon Sep 04 1995 - 12:37:16 EDT

Bruce et al,

        Mt 24:29-30 is a reference to Joel 2:31. You say the tote of Mt
24:30 may or may not indicate chronological sequence. Yet, the Joel
passage seems to stress just such a sequence, "the sun will be darkened
... before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes." It seems that
the identification of chronological sequence is exactly the point.
        In other words, "immediately after the tribulation of those
days," an obvious reference to the completion of the great tribulation
spoken of in verse 21, then the Joel prophesy is fulfilled when the sun
is darkened, the moon turned into blood, etc. All this must be easily
and certainly identifiable, otherwise it loses its force altogether.
Following this (tote) is the coming of the Son of Man when He sends His
angels with a great trumpet and gather the elect together from the four
winds. Most correctly envision here, not the coming of the Lord with
wrath and judgement in AD 70, but as the visible and personal return of
the Lord and the rapture of the church.
        Paul Dixon

On Mon, 4 Sep 1995, Bruce Terry wrote:

> On Tue, 29 Aug 1995, Jan Haugland wrote (combining two messages):
> >> A: v. 29 Transition from the desolation of Jerusalem ("after those
> >> days")
> >
> >"*Immediately* after the tribulation of those days", again referring to the
> >siege on Jerusalem.
> >
> >> B: vv. 30-33 Coming of the Son of Man
> >
> >This shift is not possible either. Verse 30 begins with "then" [=tote], so it
> >refers directly to the preceding words. These dramatic celestial events (I hope
> >this is an audience where I don't have to point out that these are well-used
> >symbols in the OT) would be *the* sign of the coming of Christ. THEN he would
> >come.
> And replying to Philip Graber, Jan wrote:
> >If Matthew was written after the destruction of Jerusalem, we have him making
> >Jesus look very silly in stating that "Immediately after the tribulation of
> >those days" (24:29) -- the siege on Jerusalem (v15,16) -- the Son of Man will
> >come on the clouds with power and glory (v30), if indeed, He did not come.
> I freely grant the presence of the word EUQEWS "immeditately" in this text, a
> word which has proven a stumbling block to many interpreters. It is the
> presence of this word that causes people to say that this discourse is either
> all talking about the second coming (a common understanding in dispensational
> circles) or all about the destruction of Jerusalem (a less frequent but
> definitely there understanding among those who are strongly anti-
> dispensational; Tasker also takes this position in his Tyndale commentary; it
> is difficult for me to say whether there are anti-dispensational motivations
> behind his position).
> The unifying of this passage into one theme is commonly based on a cursory
> reading of verses 29 and 30. The text does NOT say, "Immediately after the
> tribulation of those days, the Son of man will come," as people commonly read
> it. It says that immediately after those days there will be signs in sun,
> moon, and stars--language which Jan in other posts has correctly understood as
> OT idiom for political upheaval. The coming of the Son of man would be TOTE
> "then," either during this time of political upheaval, or next in time
> following the political upheaval. The meaning of TOTE is really unimportant
> here since the length of time of the political upheaval is not specified. It
> could be one year or 3000 in duration as far as the text is concerned. I
> suppose it is a matter of faith, rather than scholarship, on my part that I
> think we are still in that period.
> ********************************************************************************
> Bruce Terry E-MAIL:
> Box 8426, ACU Station Phone: 915/674-3759
> Abilene, Texas 79699 Fax: 915/674-3769
> ********************************************************************************

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