From: Domenico LEMBO (email@example.com)
Date: Mon Sep 23 1996 - 11:05:31 EDT
Dale M. Wheeler wrote
D. Lembo wrote:
>No.What hEWS hOU compresses is not hEWS TOU XRONOU (KAIROU) hWi but hEWS
>TOUTOU (EKEINOU) hWi, where the neuter pronoun TOUTO (EKEINO) replaces the
>masc. noun, i.e. we have not ellipsis but (stronger and simpler) deixis.
>The mere neuter (= "point") for a masc./fem./neuter noun like XRONOS,
>KAIROS, hEMERA etc. is common in Greek. For instance, in hEWS TOU NUN (Mt
>24.21) TOU NUN is the gen. of TO NUN (neuter), not of TOU NUN
>XRONOU/KAIROU (masculine) minus XRONOU/KAIROU.
I agree that TOUTO/EKEINO is the other option, but what I'm wondering, as
Carl Conrad mentioned in his post, is whether there are any example of the
entire phrase anywhere, before it became a compressed idiomatic usage; I
don't seem to be able to find any in any tools or texts I've checked so
far. I also agree with what Don Wilkins said and have the "gut level"
feeling (now there's a receipe for disaster :-) ) that the hOU is acting
like TOUTO in this case and is a neuter substitute referring back to a
"whatever" case noun phrase, a not uncommon situation--since BAGD doesn't
give any specific passages to demonstrate their choice of neuter for hOU,
I'd guess that they are operating under the same assumption.
I also considered the hEWS TOU NUN uses, but decided that they weren't
clear enough evidence, since one could argue that the neuter article is
simply being used to substantize the adverb (a common phenomenon).
From what I've seen so far in trying to chase this, the evidence is at best
ambiguous; I'd sure appreciate seeing any passages anyone might run into
which could shed some specific light on this problem. Thanks for the
One more (last !!!!) time...
After some more digging, the data seems to point to the suggestion of D.
Lembo, namely that what's missing is TOUTOU not XRONOU/KAIROU; and TOUTOU,
it seems to me, would more likely be Neut than Masc. Here's what I found...
Smyth makes the following observations:
"Herodotus has ES hO, hEWS hOU, ES hOU _until_..." Para 2383C.N.
"Demonstrative adverbs in the principal clause often correspond to the
relative conjunctions, as... hEWS...TEWS (MEXRI TOUTOU)..." Para 2384.
Demosthenes writes (De Corona, para 48 [18,48; Loeb Demonsthenes vol II, p.
MEXRI TOUTOU LASQENHS FILOS WNOMAZETO, hEWS PROUDWKEN OLUNQON...
He repeats the same phrase two more times.
Solon writes (Book i: Elegies 13,35 [Loeb Greek Elegies and Iambus I, p.
128]; though I think this is less applicable because of the obvious
antecedant of TOUTOU.):
hH DHN H TAUTHN DOCAN hEKASTOS EXEI  PRIN TI PAQEIN: TOTE D' AUTIK'
ODURETAI ACRI DE TOUTOU XASKONTES KOUFAIS ELPISI TERPOMEQA...
What think ye, mates ?????
I've been bumped off the list and have missed digest 389 and 390, until
Carl W. Conrad kindly forwarded me his copy. So I am reading just now what
Dale M. Wheeler wrote in reply. Let me add, then, some minor comments.
It is *not* true that "the evidence is at best ambiguous". I'd say it is
very clear. When we examine "hEWS hOU", we can be sure that it derives not
from "hEWS TOU XRONOU (KAIROU) hWi" but from "hEWS TOUTOU (EKEINOU) hWi".
We only need to look at a common phrase like "MEXRI TOUTOU (TOUDE)" (Hdt.
II 99.1; Thuc. I 71.4; etc.). The only ambiguity of "TOUTOU" is the
morphological one. In theory it could equally be either the genitive of
"TOUTO" or the genitive of "OUTOS". But the two so called options are not
equal at all. *Nobody* could seriously imagine here "TOUTOU" as masculine.
It cannot but be neuter. *Logically* it is tantamount to "TOUTOU TOU XRONOU
(KAIROU)". *Literally* it is the genitive of "TOUTO". There is no possibile
ellipsis of "TOU XRONOU (KAIROU)". Why are the two options not evenly
matched? Because in normal Greek usage "TOUTOU" can be meant as a masculine
only when it is clearly referred to a man (or male animal) or anaphorically
to something expressed by a masc. noun. Otherwise it is, as a rule, the
genitive of "TOUTO". One cannot understand the rich plasticity and the
multiform usage of the neuter in Greek if we only look at English. The
usage of "THIS" is not near as wide as the usage of "TOUTO" in Greek.
Domenico LEMBO Universita' di Napoli
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