Re: Dative in John 4:23

From: H. Fred Nofer (
Date: Wed Mar 12 1997 - 15:29:09 EST

On Tue, 11 Mar 1997 21:58:14 -0800 (PST) Micheal Palmer
<> writes:
>At 9:25 PM +0900 3/11/97, Andrew Kulikovsky wrote:


>PNEUMATI and ALHQEIAi are both dative because they are the objects of
>preposition EN (which must always be dative).

>The prepositional phrase EN PNEUMATI KAI ALHQEIAi does seem be used to
>state the means by which the worshiper will worship (or the way in
>the worshiper will worship), but that does not mean that PNEUMATI and
>ALHQEIAi are instrumental datives of means. They are dative simply
>they are the objects of EN (which *must* always be dative regardless
>of how
>they function semantically), not because of their meaning in this
>Micheal W. Palmer
>Religion & Philosophy
>Meredith College


I appreciate your focusing on the basic case of PNEUMATI and ALHQEIAI
following the EN, but I must be missing something. Maybe it is because
of viewing case from a different perspective, but isn't the purpose of
parsing to gain an accurate translation? If so, then isn't it necessary
to go beyond form to function? To translate accurately, one must
identify the function of the dative: locative dative, instrumental
dative, etc. (I really prefer the eight case system where function is
more obviously identified beyond form, but I "date" myself). Andrew, I
believe had already identified these as datives. I quote, "Now, the
question I have is what kind of dative...." But maybe I am missing your
point, Micheal, but IMHO simply parsing these as datives seems to be
begging the question.

Best regards,

* H. Fred Nofer, Th.D "XARITI QEOU" *
* Pastor, Faith Bible Church *
* P. O. Box 33425
* Reno, NV 89533 e-mail: *


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