RE: EIMI and Time (for the second year)

From: Williams, Wes (Wes.Williams@echostar.com)
Date: Fri Jul 11 1997 - 20:07:53 EDT


Dear Dale,

Thanks for the clarifying feedback and I appreciate hearing from you as
I know I will learn something or have my wits aptly challenged. I
confess that I tried to find you in "WHO b-greek" before posting the
question re: NIV but I could not find you. I would like to explore with
you the reasons you give.

You wrote:

>>(1) John tends to use ARXH to refer to pre-temporal existence (cmp.,
the Johnannine references in the section of BAGD with John 1:1 to the
other uses; eg., John 8:44), <<

I took your suggestion and researched BAGD. I am under the impression
that time of a particular "beginning" comes from context (i.e. the
beginning of What? The particular "what" coming from context) and I
believe BAGD supports this, although I freely admit that I am puzzled by
a term BAGD uses. BAGD refers to "beginning" in 'an absolute sense' but
then cites scriptures like Matt 19:4 in support. But I would not hold
that the creation of man was an 'absolute' beginning, rather, it was a
particular moment in the timeline (e.g. the creation of the heavens and
the earth and other things preceeding the creation of man). As a result,
I am not sure what BAGD means when they refer to an 'absolute (abs.)
sense.' I wonder if the word that would better describe what they intend
is an 'abstract' (abs.) sense? (They define "abs." as "absolute")

In John, for example, we have ...

1 John 1:1 hO HN AP ARCHS (that which was from the beginning). BAGD
suggests this "beginning" as 'the historical beginning of Christianity,'
c. the first century C.E, and not pre Genesis 1:1.

We also have...
1 John 3:11 hAUTH ESTIN hH AGGELIA hHN HKOUSATE AP ARCHS, hINA AGAPWMEN
ALLHLOU
NIV This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love
one another.

Here the "beginning" is the beginning of when they became Christians, is
it not? Certainly this is not a pre-temporal (i.e. pre-Genesis 1:1)
beginning.

As for the John 1:1a ARCHS, I am not overly dogmatic as to my position
but I do hold to one of two possibilities that I consider reasonable,
one of which I lean to more heavily than the other, which is:
1) The "beginning" echoes Genesis 1:1 LXX; EN ARCHi EPOIHSEN hO QEOS TON
OURANON KAI THN GHN.
During the period of creation of heavens and earth the Word was with the
One with whom he is said to be and certainly the Word predates the
physical creation.

As for the discussion of "time" beginning with Gen 1:1 or as a measure
of "forwardness" between two events that may have occurred before the
Gen 1:1 event, I will leave for another day.

Would this not also be a reasonable possibility? I think so. Yet I
rarely see this explored in Commentaries. I am hesitant to speculate
much beyond Genesis 1:1.

Thanks again,
Wes Williams

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Dale M. Wheeler [SMTP:dalemw@teleport.com]
>Sent: Thursday, July 10, 1997 2:47 PM
>To: b-greek@virginia.edu
>Subject: RE: EIMI and Time (for the second year)

>Wes Williams wrote:

>Dear Rolf,
>
> You wrote:
>>(1) I view HN in John 1:1 as only indicating the existence (a
>>state) of the Word in "the beginning" and there are no
lexical,
>>grammatical or syntacical reasons justifying the conclusion
that
>>the Word is eternal. Do you agree?
>
>You raise a question that I too have pondered after reading the
NIV
>Bible Commentary on John 1:1, which emphasizes that HN means
eternal
>past here....<snip>

        Hi Wes !

        I think that you'll find that the more careful commentators
choose
        HN to refer to pre-temporal existence *not* because EIMI
automatically
        means that (which, of course, it doesn't, as you pointed out
with the
        John 2:1 example), but because: (1) John tends to use ARXH to
refer
        to pre-temporal existence (cmp., the Johnannine references in
the
        section of BAGD with John 1:1 to the other uses; eg., John
8:44),
        (2) the contrast between EIMI and GINOMAI in vv 1-14, and (3)
        the picture painted of Jesus and the Father PROS one another
evidently
        pre-time and outside of our Time/Space/History.



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