Fwd: Re: The Third Heaven

From: Carl W. Conrad (cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu)
Date: Sat Jun 13 1998 - 06:48:57 EDT

>Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 15:13:39 +0800
>X-Sender: scox@chinaonline.com.cn.net
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>To: eweiss@gte.net
>From: Steven Cox <scox@chinaonline.com.cn.net>
>Subject: Re: The Third Heaven
>Cc: cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu, jonathan@texcel.no
> Hi Eric
> I've heard the below mentioned interpretation below,
> with supporting reference from counting the uses of
> OURANOS in 2Peter 3:5~13, and hence to the time travel
> idea for Paul (is this influenced also by E=mc2?)
> However.... given the context of IICo12:2 is related
> to the more traditional Jewish faction in 11:22~23
> maybe we should look to more traditional Jewish
> sources for Paul's language rather than attempt to
> fit the words into 2Peter.
> EWS TRITOU OURANOU has a wealth of refs in BAGD,
> of which the most relevant is Apoc Moses 37 where
> TRITOS OURANOS and PARADEISOS are linked. This is
> a related to a theme of Jewish apocalyptic literature
> where "tours of heaven" were so popular that most of
> the famous OT figures got given the trip courtesy of
> archangel and part-time tour guide Michael.
> My theory (for the little that it is worth) is that the
> PSEUDOAPOSTOLOI in Corinth were claiming they had been
> on a tour so Paul hit back with a description of his
> own vision 14 years previously. But the whole passage
> is so laced with sarcasm it is not easy to untangle.
> By the way I just love the way NIV renders TWN hUPERLIAN
> APOSTOLOWN in 11:5 as "Superapostles". Very cool.
> I'll dig out the Apoc Moses quote and post it.
> Cheers
> Steven
> PS: hARPAZW doesn't imply height does it? That would be
> be *AN*ARPAZW TOIS ONUXIN as in Aristophanes' Vespae 17.
>At 21:03 98/06/12 -0500, Eric Weiss wrote:
>>In a book I read recently the author states (referring to Paul's
>>statement in II Corinthians 12:2 about being caught up to the third
>>heaven - hARPAGENTA ... hEWS TRITOU OURANOU) that "the first heaven was
>>before the fall of man," "the second heaven is the spiritual realm
>>during the reign of evil upon the earth" (i.e., now), and "the third
>>heaven is when the love and domain of the Father will again prevail over
>>the earth through the King."
>>I had always interpreted Paul's statement to mean third in terms of
>>levels or heights - or even to mean (hyperbole) "the heaven of heavens"
>>- but I had NEVER interpreted it to mean third in terms of time. I'd
>>think that the verb hARPAZW (in 12:2 a participle, but in 12:4 the
>>simple indicative - hHRPAGH EIS TON PARADEISON) followed first by hEWS
>>then EIS would seem to support that the apostle was taken up to the
>>LEVEL of "the third heaven" rather than taken FORWARD IN TIME to the
>>time of (or to see the time of) "the third heaven" (even if Paul was
>>"snatched/caught away in a vision or trance" to see future things).
>>"Eric S. Weiss"
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