Date: Tue Nov 10 1998 - 01:14:57 EST

In a message dated 11/9/98 1:55:57 PM Pacific Standard Time, writes:

<< Whoa...
 Are you saying that PRWTOTOKOS in Colossians 1:15 means PRWTOTOKOS with
respect to the "sons of God" found in the Job passages you cite? If so,
 what is the evidence for your view? >>

I am saying that Jesus is PRWTOTOKOS with respect to KTISIS, which includes
the sons of God in Job, Psalms and Genesis. These are spirit sons of God, like
Jesus. The sons of God, according to Job 38:7, preexisted the creation of the
heavens and the earth. They, along with Jesus, are the only ones referred to
as God's heavenly sons. So how else am I supposed to take it? What other
beings should I put between the LOGOS and the creation of physical beings?

 makes it quite clear that Jesus is the firstborn with respect to PASHS
 KTISEWS (all of creation). Certainly, these "sons of God" in Job are not
 "all of creation". >>

No, but they are part of it. Since they are God's heavenly sons, Jesus
precedes them in terms of temporal priority, as he does the rest of the
KTISIS, naturally.

<< You suggest that the "sons of God" in Job are the angels. I do not know one
 way or another, but if Colossians wanted to say that Jesus was the
 PRWTOTOKOS of the angels, it could have said so, instead of saying

Jonathan, the angels are part of KTISIS, for they, too, draw their life from
God, and are thus creations. What basis do you have for excluding the sons of
God from KTISIS? Who else could the sons of God in the OT be, but angels?

Greg Stafford

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