RE: Ephesians ~ Generic Dative and Periphrastic Pefect

From: Bill Ross (wross@farmerstel.com)
Date: Mon Apr 26 1999 - 11:21:50 EDT


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<DIV><SPAN class=190154214-26041999></SPAN>{<SPAN class=190154214-26041999><FONT
color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><FONT size=3><FONT color=#000000
face="Times New Roman">Carl</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;}</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>On the other hand, in the unquestionably authentic letters of Paul I've
found several good instances of the periphrastic perfect or pluperfect; here are
a few of them:<BR><BR><U>Rom</U> 13:1, where Paul speaks of authorities to which
one must be subject. OU GAR ESTIN EXOUSIA EI MH hUPO QEOU, and those that do
exist (hAI DE OUSAI), he says, hUPO QEOU TETAGMENAI EISIN. This is a
periphrastic third-plural perfect passive.<SPAN class=190154214-26041999><FONT
color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=190154214-26041999></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=190154214-26041999>{Bill}</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=190154214-26041999>Ironically, this is also an example of ESTIN as a
"stand-alone" verb! This is exactly how George wants to read this
construction:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=190154214-26041999></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=190154214-26041999>"Not
ARE authorities except by God, and those that do exist, by God having been
established ARE." (or, "Are, having been established by
God").</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=190154214-26041999></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=190154214-26041999>This
would parallel George's reading: "In Grace you ARE, having been saved by
faith."</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=190154214-26041999></SPAN><SPAN class=190154214-26041999><FONT
color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=190154214-26041999><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>The
other examples do prove the normalcy of the form.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=190154214-26041999><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial
size=2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=190154214-26041999><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial
size=2>{Bill}</FONT>&nbsp;</SPAN><BR>&gt;As to George's assertion that ESTE is a
stand alone verb, in the sense of<SPAN class=190154214-26041999><FONT
color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>&nbsp; </FONT></SPAN>"you exist," that is how I
first read it, since the context has Paul showing<BR>in this passage that the
Church is God's new creation:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Eph 2:<BR>&gt;10 For we are his
workmanship, **created** in Christ Jesus unto good works,<SPAN
class=190154214-26041999><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>&nbsp;
</FONT></SPAN>which God hath before ordained that we should walk in
them.<BR><SPAN class=190154214-26041999><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial
size=2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=190154214-26041999>{Carl}&nbsp;</SPAN><BR>In Eph 2:10 AUTOU GAR
ESMEN POIHMA. ESMEN is hardly a "stand-alone" verb, it takes a predicate
nominative, namely POIHMA AUTOU.<SPAN class=190154214-26041999><FONT
color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=190154214-26041999></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=190154214-26041999><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial
size=2>{Bill}</FONT>&nbsp;</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=190154214-26041999></SPAN><FONT size=2><FONT
color=#0000ff><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=190154214-26041999>&nbsp;I&nbsp;was
not citing 2:10 to show ESMEN as a "stand-alone" verb, but to show that&nbsp;the
context of the passage was that the&nbsp;Church&nbsp;was a miracle by God,
not&nbsp;an accomplishment of&nbsp;men. &nbsp;The word I was calling attention
to was KTISQENTES.</SPAN><BR><SPAN
class=190154214-26041999>&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT face=Arial><SPAN
class=190154214-26041999>{Carl}&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT><BR>I hope that
I have shown that.&nbsp;<FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=190154214-26041999>&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=190154214-26041999>&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=190154214-26041999><FONT
color=#000000 face="Times New Roman" size=3>{Bill}</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=190154214-26041999>Thank you for your ever diligent, patient
instruction. I don't believe that you have proven that ESTE must of necessity be
linked to SESWiSMENOI, since it can stand alone, and you have proved that ESTE
can serve as a "stand-alone" verb as George holds. Further, it does appear less
frequent to put ESTE before the verb than after. Hence, I don't see how the
grammar, which supports both readings, can preclude either one.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=190154214-26041999></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=190154214-26041999>And both are true:</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=190154214-26041999></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=190154214-26041999>"By/In grace you have been saved through
faith"</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=190154214-26041999></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=190154214-26041999>and</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=190154214-26041999></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=190154214-26041999>"By/In grace you are, having been saved
through faith."</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=190154214-26041999></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=190154214-26041999>Did I
miss anything that makes one conclusively incorrect??</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=190154214-26041999></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=190154214-26041999>By the
way, one additional reason that I prefer the second reading is that it does not
have to be read as a parenthesis, and it contributes to the thrust of the
passage. I find the disjointed approach unnerving. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=190154214-26041999></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=190154214-26041999>Bill
Ross</SPAN></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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