From: Steven Craig Miller (scmiller@www.plantnet.com)
Date: Thu Dec 23 1999 - 14:32:15 EST
<x-flowed>To: George Goolde, Carl W. Conrad, et al.,
CWC: << One could say, "I was," but I think that "I am" captures the
paradoxical sense that the statement presents. If one is willing to
sacrifice the structure of the Greek and reformulate the content, I think
one might write, "My existence antedates the birth of Abraham." Come to
think of it, that reformulation fits the old observation (which is at least
partly true, as anyone who has had to memorize Greek verb paradigms is well
aware) that English tends to express major notions with nouns while Greek
tends to express major ideas with verbs. >>
SCM: << Perhaps, but EGW EIMI is just a common phrase which often in both
Classical Greek and the NT simply means nothing more than "I am he"
(assuming a male speaker). There is nothing in the Grammar of this Greek
text which necessarily demands understanding this text to suggests
pre-existence. One could just as easily interpret this passage to mean
(something like): "before Abraham was, I was appointed to this task"
(literally: "Before Abraham was, I am he"). On the other hand, I will
concede the fact that the phrase PRIN ABRAAM GENESQAI makes understanding
the text somewhat difficult. Exactly what was before Abraham? Your
interpretation assumes that it was the individual or person of Jesus which
preexisted before Abraham. My interpretation merely assumes that the
appointment of the person Jesus for God's task preexisted before Abraham. >>
GG: << Which shows that we all have theological presuppositions which
sometimes color our understanding of the Greek text. >>
I fully concur. Since, after all, everything can be considered to be a
"theological presupposition." For example, should a person eat sausage or
hot dogs? Someone who is Torah-observant would hold that eating sausage or
hot dogs was an abomination unto God. Someone not Torah-observant might not
care either way. Each can be said to have a "theological presupposition" as
to what God requires of humanity. In Lutheran theology (and perhaps in
other theologies as well) there is a category called "adiaphora," which
refers to "indifferent things," which are neither commanded, nor forbidden,
by God. But even here, assuming that somethings are "adiaphora" and other
are not is also a "theological presupposition."
But despite the fact that everything can be considered to be a "theological
presupposition," we can still ask ourselves which interpretations of
scripture better reflect the Greek text. The problem I have with Dr.
Conrad's interpretation of John 8:58 is that he seems to be taking a
present tense EIMI and interpreting it as a historical present. Perhaps I'm
mistaken, but it seems to me that there is no real evidence (elsewhere) of
the present tense of EIMI being used in this manner. Where as my
interpretation of this passage interprets EIMI as a present tense.
It would perhaps be an understatement for me to suggest that Dr. Conrad's
knowledge of Greek far exceeds my own. And I have a deep respect for him
both as a person and a scholar. But on such issues as this, it does not
seem unreasonable for one to ask for substantiation. Although I live across
the Mississippi, in the state of Illinois, I subscribe to the motto of the
great state of Missouri, "Show me." Daniel B. Wallace, in his "Greek
Grammar Beyond the Basics" (1996), writes:
<< A proper syntactical approach must be based on legitimate, undisputed
examples >> (530n47).
I am more than willing to change my mind on this issue when legitimate and
undisputed examples are presented supporting the notion that the present
tense of EIMI was used in ancient Greek as a historical present, or if it
can be shown how I've misunderstood things here. But until then, it seems
to me that suggesting that my interpretation also contains "theological
presuppositions" is fairly meaningless, or at least moot, since each and
every interpretation must contain "theological presuppositions" of one sort
or another.
-Steven Craig Miller
Alton, Illinois (USA)
scmiller@www.plantnet.com
Disclaimer: "I'm just a simple house-husband (with no post-grad degree),
what do I know?"
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