Date: Sun Mar 05 2000 - 16:09:25 EST

In a message dated 3/4/2000 4:21:19 PM, writes:

<< Either way there appears to be two kinds of PISTEUW: that which is
believed in vain, which is held fast, and by which one is saved; and
that which is believed in vain, which is not held fast, and by which one
is not saved. >>

To which Charles Powell says:

<<I agree, but my point is that in such a case, either noticia, assensia,
both are defective, and not simply fiducia. The development of PISTEUW
suggests a development of noticia, assensia, and fiducia, but does not
suggest it is defective, but simply not yet fully developed. This is true
both the disciples and those who believe in John 12, even though they
the Pharisees. They eventually come out of the closet in John 19,
in the same narrative that Peter denies Christ.>>

and Paul Dixon responds:

According to Jn 20:8-9 the first time it is said that a disciple
EPISTEUSEN is when John saw the empty tomb. I refer to one
of the original 12 apostles, not to the larger group of disciples,
some of whom turned away from Christ in Jn 6, but even there,
I am not sure it says they believed.

It may be that the two kinds of belief in John's Gospel refers to
not an immature belief later developed into a mature one, but
to a belief never associated with regeneration versus a belief
necessarily associated with it.

Paul Dixon

B-Greek home page:
You are currently subscribed to b-greek as: []
To unsubscribe, forward this message to
To subscribe, send a message to

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.4 : Sat Apr 20 2002 - 15:41:00 EDT