Re: Hebrews: Clouds, Author

From: Jeffrey B. Gibson (
Date: Sat May 27 2000 - 16:04:14 EDT

Bill Ross wrote:

> <Ben>
> IMHO the confusion arises because the NEFOS MARTURWN are considered by some
> as a "*crowd of Spectators*", watching from some sort of heavenly viewing
> platform on a fleecy white NEFOS...
> <Bill>
> So also is there confusion when Jesus is spoken of as the "author and
> finisher of our faith". This verse speaks of Christ as the ultimate example
> of faith - "the quintessential Faith-Man," not the manipulator of our
> faculties. (ie: there is no article before "faith" and he is the "Prince"
> not "author") so He is the "Prince of Faith".
> Also while we're on the subject of "author of our faith" I made a discovery
> that I've never aired on B-Greek, so I guess I ought to let the dogs
> loose...
> Rom 12:3 (KJV)
> "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you,
> not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think
> soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the **measure** of faith."
> I hold that the word "measure" (METRON) is not being used to denote a
> quantity of faith, but a measuring **device**. In other words, God has given
> to all a faithometer. Hence, we are not to measure inaccurately (too high or
> too low). Then he gives examples:
> Rom 12:6 (KJV)
> "Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us,
> whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;"
> I think the above should read "if prophecy, [it should be measured] in
> consistency to the faith".
> So all of the gifts are to measured by the right measuring stick.

Two responses. First, I wonder if this "discovery" is not eisegesis. Can you cite
**any** evidence from any piece of Greek literature or any Greek inscription
contemporary with the NT in which the words in question are used with the meaning you
think they have? Indeed, do you actually ever check the Lexicons to see if your
"discoveries" have any chance of being correct, or the Grammars or the commentaries to
see if syntactically they are even remotely possible?

Second, is there some reason why you keep doing your exegesis of the Greek text on the
basis of an (outdated) English translation?

> As to clouds, I just happen to have read this description of them as
> "bottles of heaven" and thought I'd pass it on for no particular reason,
> just cause it appeals to my poetic sensibilities...
> Job 38:37 (KJV)
> "Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of
> heaven,"
> Can you picture someone trying to put lids on all of the jars dumping on
> them? I wrote a song once with this image. It is available for free download
> on my web page (the song is called O California).

I find this impossible mainly because of your assumption that when the KJV translators
used the word "bottle", they meant what you now take the word to mean when you read
or hear it. But in Elizabethan English, "bottle" was used an an equivalent to

So once again you have illustrated the danger and the difficulties of trying to
exegete a Greek text on the basis of a translation of it.

Would it be too much to ask that you cease doing so?


Jeffrey Gibson
Jeffrey B. Gibson
7423 N. Sheridan Road #2A
Chicago, Illinois 60626

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