[b-greek] RE: Greek idioms

From: Paul Zellmer (pzellmer@sc.rr.com)
Date: Mon Mar 26 2001 - 18:21:41 EST


Mike,

I'd be interested in seeing your source of the warning nature of the paint.
I know of various cultures where graves which are above ground are painted
white as a sign of continued care for the dead. But I have never run across
any work, scholarly or not, that proposes what you state to be a fact for
the first century Jews. In fact, I rather doubt it, since the
characteristic that is emphasized concerning the tombs is that they are
hWRAIOS, "beautiful." I agree, though, that the phrase is not an idiom,
while it is used as an image (simile) in the passage you cite. Imagery is
not necessarily idiom.

As for your "translation," the use of "warning," even if your stated reason
for the paint is indeed true, is incorporating a footnote type explanation
into the text. We are not talking translation theory on this list, but I
would not allow it to pass in that form in the translation work in which I
am involved. If an explanation is absolutely necessary, rather than give
room to the possibility that non-warning white is distinct from warning
white, I would have the translators use "tombs painted white as a warning
sign." However, I'm not quite sure if there is enough significance to this
added information to move it out of a separate commentary into the the text.
"Whited tombs" or "tombs made white" seem adequate for the point that is
made in this passage.

I also find your "foregone conclusion" to be off the mark for AMHN AMHN, at
least in my dialect of English. Unless it is misleading in some way, a
translation should keep the element of truth that is found in the root,
whereas conclusion implies logic, which carries a different tenor. If you
feel that the reader will not correctly see the significance to the
grammatical doubling, then perhaps "It is for a fact true that ..." might be
a more accurate translation. Again, though, most English dialects have been
so flavored by biblical influence over the years that I sincerely doubt that
"Truly, truly" does not bear all the necessary baggage to convey the correct
thought in translation.

You asked for our thoughts. HTH.

Paul Zellmer

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Sangrey [mailto:msangrey@BlueFeltHat.org]
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2001 12:22 PM
To: Biblical Greek
Cc: wleman@netzero.net
Subject: [b-greek] Greek idioms



I'd like to know what others think of these idioms:

TAFOIS KEKONIAMENOIS: "tombs whited" (see Mat. 23:27), I always
assumed that tombs were NOT painted white and that Jesus was saying
the Scribes and Pharisees were just like what it would be like if
people actually DID paint tombs white. Well, I learned yesterday
the tombs WERE painted white and the reason was identical to why we,
at least in the US, paint certain things `warning yellow'. It was
a signal to the eyes to `steer clear'. In other words, the outward
show of righteousness appears as a warning to others of the death
which "lives" within.

I'm not sure I would call this an idiom. I would translate, though,
as `tombs painted warning white'.

AMHN AMHN: "truly, truly". I don't think this quite captures what
is being said. It seems to me to be more along the lines of "It is
a foregone conclusion that..."
--
Mike Sangrey
msangrey@BlueFeltHat.org
Landisburg, Pa.
                        "The first one last wins."
            "A net of highly cohesive details reveals the truth."



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