From: Dave Washburn (firstname.lastname@example.org)
Date: Wed Apr 25 2001 - 15:50:26 EDT
> I will speak about Matthew 16 and the Rock imagery.
> > >
> > >Which verses? Mark 16 is unfinished or lost from 16:9 on and appended
> > >with a non-Markan ending (several versions). John 21 is also an appendix
> > >not part of the original.
> > >
> > >Jack
> > >
> > The specific verses and words weren't mentioned, that is what I was
> > asking about (I think you've confused Matthew and Mark here). From what
> > Randall Buth wrote it seems it's about the words 'love' and 'rock', but
> > he also says this WOULD have been possible in Hebrew or Aramaic. Can
> > someone clearly explain exactly what the word-play is and why it 'may'
> > only be possible in Greek?
> Yes, I had Mark on the brain from doing a study of the GoT and the Markan
> Matthew 16:18
> KAGW DE SOI LEGW hOTI SU EI PETROS KAI EPI TAUTH TH PETRA
> And I also to you say that you are PETER and on this
> hOIKODOMHSW MOU THN EKKLHSIAN
> I will build my assembly
> The Greek "word play" (something I am not so sure about) is between the
> PETROS (stone) and the PETRA (ROCK).
Yes. This has been recognized for centuries.
> In Aramaic, it would have been something like:
> attah KEFA hu we'al KEFA den ebnyeh qehali
> you are a ROCK and on this ROCK I will BUILD (from stone) my assembly
> The word for "build" is from EBEN (build as in a mason) and its root is BANA
> This is, IMO, the intended word play. "You are a rock and on this rock I
> will build an assembly out of ROCK"
I don't see how this is a word play. BANA in both languages
simply means "build," not necessarily specifically out of stone. It's
used in Gen 11:4 of building the Babel tower, where we are told
they made mud bricks because there wasn't any stone. So I don't
see a word play between KEFA and BANA here. A word play of
the type under discussion involves creative use of similar-sounding
words, something that doesn't happen in the suggested
Hebrew/Aramaic rendering of this statement.
> This particular word play works in both Aramaic AND Hebrew (ebeneh eth
> odathi) but
> NOT in Greek. The putative GREEK word play is between PETROS and PETRA
> but my opinion is this is an artifact of difficult translation from Semitic
> to Greek with
> the use of a masculine suffix.
I don't follow you here. What masculine suffix? The two are both
common Greek terms, the one meaning a stone, the other a
boulder (though I agree that by NT times the lines may have been
blurred, as happened with a lot of words).
> The Semitic word play makes a lot more sense to me, particularly when I
> think of
> an Aramaic parallel in the Odes of Solomon (22:12):
I suppose it's everyone's prerogative to say "this makes more
sense to me," so I'll exercise my own and say that the Greek pun
makes much more sense to me than a purported word play
between KEFA and BANA.
> "And the foundation of everything is thy ROCK and upon it thou hast built
> thy kingdom......."
> I am convinced..along with many scholars, that Jesus' native tongue was
I agree. But we also know Greek was the trade language of the
Roman Empire, Judea and Galilee included.
> but Aramaic or Hebrew, the Semitic construction makes more sense than the
> Greek. This does not mean that Matthew was autographed in Aramaic or Hebrew
> and the Greek is a translation. It merely means that the Greek of Yeshuine
> sayings material
> is translational from his original Semitic voice. Quite frankly, I do not
> think the Matthean
> scribe was competent in either Aramaic or Hebrew.
I tend to disagree about the source. If, as seems likely, most
tradesmen were conversant in both languages, I see no reason that
Jesus couldn't have switched from one to the other to suit his own
purposes. We have direct examples of his speaking Aramaic in
the gospels, so I hardly think there's a question as to whether he
spoke Aramaic. The question revolves around Greek and whether
he and his followers were bilingual.
"You just keep thinking, Butch. That's what you're good at."
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