[b-greek] Re: JOH 16,23

From: Al Jacobson (abj@the-bridge.net)
Date: Tue May 01 2001 - 09:11:20 EDT


Jay

Context works with grammar here(or with syntax, to be more precise) and I
think that in this instance context becomes essential. For example, I am
looking at the verse in the Nestle Aland 26th Edition (Logos Library). The
verses say:

AMHN AMHN LEGW hUMIN AN TI AITHSHTE TON PATERA EN TW ONOMATI MOU DWSEI
hUMIN. EWS ARTI OUK HTHSATE OUDEN EN TW ONOMATI MOU, AITEITE KAI LHMYESQE
hINA hH XARA hUMWN Hi PEPLHRWMENH

If EN TW ONOMATI MOU went with DWSEI hUMIN, then I would not expect to find
it in the next sentence with HTHSATE OUDEN. Moreover, I would expect to
find it (at least in some variants) in the last clause quoted (e.g. LYMYESQE
EN TW ONOMATI MOU, or something like that).

So, if I may translate: Truly truly I say to you, if you should ask the
Father anything in my name, He will give to you. Until now you have asked
nothing in my name. Ask and you shall receive that your joy be fulfilled
(made full).

My point is: Why should verse 24 say "until now you have asked nothing IN
MY NAME" (emphasis added), if originally the EN TW ONOMATI MOU went with the
DWSEI, instead of with AN TI AITHSHTE? And I would also expect to find at
least a variant (by some pedantic scribe) in the next verse saying (I will
translate): "Ask and you shall receive in my name, that your joy be
fulfilled."

So, given the way the EN TW ONOMATI MOU is used in these verses, confirms to
me that the phrase goes with the asking, not the giving. I'm doing this
hastily now, but in the back of my mind something suggests that there are
probably other verses in John that would confirm this. But I'll leave it to
you to confirm or confound me on that.

Hope this is the kind of discussion you were asking for.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jay Anthony Adkins [mailto:Jadkins26438@cs.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 3:54 AM
To: Biblical Greek
Subject: [b-greek] Re: JOH 16,23


> John N. Lupia
> 501 North Avenue B-1
> Elizabeth, New Jersey 07208-1731 USA
> JLupia2@excite.com
>
>
> TO : Jay Anthony Adkins
>
> b-greek@franklin.oit.unc.edu
>
> Regarding the TR and Papyri , the text consulted was: W. L. Elliot & D.C.
> Parker, The Gospel According to St. John (American & British Committees
> IGNTP) Vol. One: The Papyri. (Leiden, 1995)
> This is the best source for the TR in John in print..
>
> IMHO, the best English translation of that portion of the passage AN TI
> AITHSHTE TON PATERA EN TW ONOMATI MOU DWSEI hUMIN you have in mind is:
> "whatever you ask the Father in my name He will give you"
>
> I hope this helps clarify things.
>
> Peace in Christ,
> JOHN

No, not really John. I appreciate your attempt to help and I agree with
your translation based purely on contextual grounds, however, I was really
hoping someone might explain the grammatical grounds that the
prepositional phrase EN TW ONOMATI MOU should modify the asking as opposed
to the giving as in some translations (NASB, RSV, ASV, etc.). Is this
difference based on purely word order and the placement of the
prepositional phrase? The NRSV which I have quoted a couple of times
seems to indicate this.

John 16:23 (NRSV) On that day you will ask nothing of me. {Or [will ask me
no question]} Very truly, I tell you, if you ask anything of the Father in
my name, he will give it to you. {Other ancient authorities read Father,
he will give it to you in my name]}

Lacking any further information, I suppose that context is again the key
grammatical rule in play here and that word order is merely a supporting
help. If someone would or could confirm that, my confidence would be much
greater than it presently is. Otherwise, I am hard pressed to understand
why placing DWSEI hUMIN in front of EN TW ONOMATI MOU (as some variants
do) would cause some to change their translation.

Again, thank you for the textual critical information.

Sola Gratia,
        Jay Adkins
Always Under Grace!

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