[b-greek] But what about prepositions-Genitive

From: virgilsalvage1 (virgilsalvage1@msn.com)
Date: Wed May 23 2001 - 20:00:45 EDT

To Randall and all....

  To my statement...
genitive case is a load carrying case, capable of carrying much more weight
and content than the accusative case. It only has to extend. Or the dative
case...it speaks of something being personified, representing if you will.
While the genitive case out of necessity of assigning "kind" must be
speaking of some "reality" that has occurred, or in the above presented
example....thought to and was persuaded as having occurred.<".....

  You responded....
"Possibly exactly opposite the the above quote about the genitive,

the genitive case is LESS TRANSITIVE than the accusative, it carries

less weight and less content than the accusative.

When compared, the genitive is 'partial' to the accusative's 'whole'.

We may be talking about two different matters. When I speak of the load or
weight that the genitive carries to it's nearby substantive or whatever it
is giving specification to; that is, the fact that it is speaking of the
GENOS of that something nearby.... I am saying that the content and the
"genre" that the genitive speaks of, is of more import than the transitivity
that is indicated as being between the verb and the accusative.

    What I mean is this: If we are writing about a load of apples that was
transported to the Saturday Market, the transitiveness of this statement is
quite high. It's the apples. It's the market.

   However if we make a statement that George Stewart raised " crop apples
with apples in the genitive case( assuming we are speaking Greek ) then what
I am proposing is that a Greek speaker would use the genitive because to him
he is thinking about, impressed by, and it is not escaping him concerning
what it means to have such a thing as an apple tree, soil, seed, proper
weather, growth in the apple tree branches with leaves on the branches, then
buds, the appearance of the little apples, the continuance of the season,
more growth, new shape color, more time, harvest approaching...Now, apples !
Wonderful, sweet, nutritious and thereby life-giving apples. This is crop
(apples--genitive case) It speaks of distinction. Distinction that cannot
come to be without something more significant happening than what is
represented by the relationship between verb and accusative. The genitive
case speaks of process. That's why, I believe the verb EGHGERTAI "raised" is
perfect indicative passive. This speaks of process. And, even more so I
believe, carrying more weight of import that is...is the genitive phrase "EK
NEKRWN" For the raising that was being thought of here to be an "out from
that which is characterized by the dead kind.....well, that doesn't just
happen. There has to be something or someone behind it and that someone or
something behind it has to be moving the process along, and thereby bringing
it to be. What is indicated here is that the "some" that believed this to be
real concerning John the Baptist, had come to this conclusion as a result of
very careful consideration. They were convinced. The genitive shows this the
most, it seems to me.

    Randall, you then suggested...."For Luke's meaning at 9.7b, I suggest
that you focus on the
verb and its idiomatic meaning with certain prepositions
and you'll be safe.

   To this I say...respectfully; I don't want to be safe. I want to
understand the genitive case also and discover what it brings to the meaning
in Luke 9:7b

Virgil Newkirk
Salt Lake City, Utah

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