[b-greek] Re: John 17:25

From: Harold R. Holmyard III (hholmyard@ont.com)
Date: Mon May 28 2001 - 14:52:28 EDT

Dear Michael,

You write:

>Harold Holmyard wrote:

>>In BAGD, under KAI, at I.6, there is mention of KAI to introduce contrasts
>where there are two KAI's, yielding "although" . . ."yet." That is what the
>context in John 17:25 suggests.

>MH: I don't think this does fit, because I don't see this contrast as being
>between the two KAIs but between the first KAI and the EGW DE.
>I suppose you could translate:

>"Righteous Father, although the world did not know you, (yet) I knew you

>But to my mind this doesn't quite convey the TONE of what Jesus is saying
>here. That idea would more likely be expressed with a MEN ... DE

HH: You are right. I apologize for claiming that the two KAI situation fit
here in John 17:25, since the next conjunction is a DE. Yet the DE
conjunction, as you observe, seems to be adversative here. I notice that
KAI preceding a participle can also have the sense of "although" according
to LSJ at KAI, B.9. So the KAI with DE situation may be close enough to the
KAI with KAI situation to carry the same sense. Also, the following KAI is
joining the disciples' knowing with that of Jesus' knowing. So their
knowing would partake of the adversative quality of His knowing. You are
right that I meant the "yet" to precede Jesus' knowing.

HH: Your idea of "yes" seems good, but I do not see the lexicons offering
that idea. In Hebrew the similar "waw" conjunction may sometimes be
translated as "yes." See Waltke and O'Connor's _Biblical Hebrew Syntax_,
652-53, where they discuss the "emphatic waw" translated as "yea." But
"waw" may be a more multi-purpose word than KAI.

                                Harold Holmyard
                                Dallas, TX

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