From: virgilsalvage1 (firstname.lastname@example.org)
Date: Wed May 30 2001 - 05:20:11 EDT
On Tues May 29nth at 17:36 Glenn Blank referring to...
his having written,
>Question # 2..2) Is the notion of process generally indicated in other
>occurrences of the
>> genitive in NTG?
> Glenn, to this I would say....absolutely ! The genitive case is more
>that adjectival. A.T. Robertson says..." It is the case of
>specification...speaking to " kind of ".
Then....On: Sat, 26 May 2001 14:46:46 -0600, Glenn wrote...
"I agree, Virgil, that the genitive indicates specification, whether "kind
of," as in supplying the attributes of the head noun to which the genitive
noun is attached, or "source of," as in where the referent of the head noun
comes from, or "part of," as in what group is the referent of the head noun
associated with. But that does not imply that the genitive case is more
than specification. In fact, that is *precisely* what adjectives do -- they
specify. Nor does it imply that the genitive case encodes process.
Hello again Glenn...,
Since the genitive case is for indicating that the reality that now exists
in some noun;.... that is, the reality that the noun is representing;.....
is going to be able in "some substantial and real way" to assign and
transfer that reality to the substantive nearby, I think...disqualifies the
genitive case itself from indicating source. The genitive case itself
indicates "kind". The word APO in the genitive case, however...does the very
specific job of describing something that is characterized by being "from"
"source" if you will. The genitive case indicates
specification...characterization....kind, not source. And for something to
be part of something it only needs to be referred to as part of something.
To use the genitive case to indicate part of....would require that the "part
of" was characterized by being part of....the part of ! Where we have what
some would refer to as the partitive genitive.... is I believe; an unknowing
shifting of the focus from the "something" that the part of is from...to the
For example: Some would refer to Mark 12:2c as a partitive genitive.
Speaking of part of. That is not what is indicated at all. APO TOU KARPOU
....the servant was not sent to get "part of" the fruit. The servant was
sent to get what was characterized by "coming from" what was characterized
by "fruit"( the focus of the genitive case here is the reality of what was
supposed to be there and it was supposed to be fruit!) Not some! And this
"from" and "fruit" was to be characterized by...what was TOU
AMPELWNOS...characterized by the vineyard. The man that sent the servant
wanted fruit...not some.
You then said..."But that does not imply that the genitive case is more
than specification." Glenn since this refers I think to my first paragraph
above...did you perhaps mean to write..."the genitive case is more than
adjectival ?" If that's so, I would reply, yes, the genitive case IS more
than adjectival. The reason I would say that, is that adjectives do not
"grant specification", they can only "describe" or point to certain
properties or qualities as pertains to a noun. Adjectives do not
specify...that is speak of the transference of kind to something like the
genitive can indicate.
Glenn, you then said..."Nor does it imply that the genitive case encodes
Glenn...this cannot be correct. Any noun in the genitive case did not just
"in an instant" come out of nowhere. For a person...place...or thing to be
spoken of some kind of process had to have taken place for the
person...place...or thing...to have existence.
E.G. AMPELWNOS....The vineyard was started...cared
days..weeks...years...seasons. Yes, for there to be a vineyard in the
genitive case there is a very real process required to bring it to be
something that can be referred to in the genitive case. UION TOU ANQRWPOU...
Man came to be by a significant and substantial and practical
process....thereby bringing about the possibility that there could then be
the process that brought about to be UION TOU ANQRWPOU.
Referring to another part of the previous message you said...
"If I understand you correctly, Virgil, you are saying that every time the
genitive construction occurs, it is referring to something which in the real
world has to involve a process, and therefore, the genitive case signifies
>I'm really just in the beginning of looking into these matters, however I
>somewhat confident that wherever there is a genitive construction, you will
>find these priniciples at work, I believe. I would welcome looking at any
>genitive consruction to see if this is so. I expect it to be.
Yes, of course. It would *have* to be the case. Because *everything* in
the real world involves a process, regardless of what grammatical
construction is used to refer to it. Whether the writer uses a genitive
case, a dative case, an accusative case, a nominative case, or a vocative
case, the case can be made that the actual event itself involves a process.
Hence, your hypothesis is meaninglessly unfalsifiable.
Glenn....this is anything but meaningless. What you have stated in most
of the paragraph above is amazing and wonderful. Our looking into and
considering all these matters "should" mainly result in our being cognizant
of and always appreciating and thus benefiting by thinking about and being
aware of these processes; whether they be verbal, noun related, case related
or whatever. This is wonderful. We need to think about it ! Not just go
through the motions and exercises so that we have all the categories and
labels filed neatly away in our frames of references. This is what Greek is
mainly about. Listen to C.M. Bowra from his book "The Greek
Experience"....page 171: "Because their sharp eyes were trained on the
visual arts and took pleasure in noticing "details," the Greeks were
naturally keen observers and regarded observation as a human activity which
called for no apology. Without it no important questions could be either
posed or answered, and because it was natural to them, it stirred their
intelligence and their speculations."
I did not state any of the propositions above for the reason of
presenting something that was meaninglessly unfalsifiable. I have proferred
these things because they have import, impact, and significance. Nothing
more and definitely...nothing less.
Salt Lake City, Utah
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