From: Chet Creider (firstname.lastname@example.org)
Date: Sun Sep 09 2001 - 19:14:45 EDT
> >c. "Grundmann's suggestion that he prayed to himself rather than to
> >God is too sophisticated." [I agree with Marshall's conclusion but not
> >with his reason; I think it is not likely, given the context or perhaps
> >given almost any context, that he would pray to himself -- CAC]
> I don't think it's a matter of the PRAYER being addressed to himself, but
> of the SPEAKING/SPEECH ACT being directed to himself.
This is certainly plausible. See below.
> >The 3rd edition has an extensive discussion of PROS and cites the phrase
> >in Luke 18:11 under sense 3, subsense g. Sense 3 is the familiar "movement
> >or orientation toward s.o./s.t." and subsense g is "by, at, near". However,
> >the actual gloss given for the phrase in Luke is "he uttered a prayer to
> >himself". This strikes me as not likely given that the verb is PROSHUCETO.
> >There is another subsense in BDAG to sense 3, subsense e: "with reference/
> >regard to", "about". This sense seems most plausible to me in that it
> >matches most closely what the Pharisee does, namely, pray about himself.
> I think that BDAG has been slightly misrepresented here: I read
> (substituting Arabic for the Greek lower-case subsections):
> (3) w. acc. "marker of movement or orientation toward someone/something;
> (a) of going;
> (b) of sending;
> (c) of motion generally;
> (d) of leading, guiding;
> (e) of saying speaking;
> (f) of asking, praying: DEOMAI Acts 8:24;
> EUCOMAI cf. 2 Macc 9:13; 2 Cor 13:7;
> PROSEUCOMAI; Also after nouns like DEHSIS,
> LOGOS et al Rom 10:1, 2 Cor 1:18 al.
Please correct me if I am not correct, but I don't think I've misrepresented
BDAG. All of (a) through (f) are subsenses of BDAG's "circled a" :
3 ...marker of movement or orientation toward someone/someth.--"circled a"
(then follow sub-sub-senses alpha through zeta -- your (a) through (f).
Iver and I were referring to "circled g", starting at the bottom the
first column of p.875 and not having any greek-letter sub-sub-senses.
> It does seem to me that sense (f) is really an extension of sense (e),
> particularly inasmuch as LOGOS PROS QEON is used (Rom 10:1) of prayer to
> Consequently, and especially in view of the frequency of Luke's usage of
> PROS + pronoun with verbs of speaking or address, it seems to me that the
> easiest way to understand TAUTA PROS hEAUTON PROSHUCETO is that the
> Pharisee may well have intended and hoped that God would hear his words (he
> does, after all, use hO QEOS, the common nom. for vocative, in his opening
> words, hO QEOS, EUCARISTW SOI hOTI OUK EIMI hWSPER hOI LOIPOI TWN ANQRWPWN)
> direct his prayer to God), but he directs the speech, the spoken words TO
> Back to Grundmann's suggestion cited above, "that he prayed to himself
> rather than to God", I think it's not so much that he didn't address the
> words of his prayer to God as that he spoke aloud the words of the prayer
> TO HIMSELF.
All of this is perfectly plausible and perhaps more plausible than my
own suggestion as it makes use of a more central meaning of PROS.
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