[b-greek] Re: Luke 18:11 -- analysis of Carl Conrad

From: Chet Creider (creider@csd.uwo.ca)
Date: Sun Sep 09 2001 - 19:14:45 EDT

> >c. "Grundmann's suggestion that he prayed to himself rather than to
> >God is too sophisticated." [I agree with Marshall's conclusion but not
> >with his reason; I think it is not likely, given the context or perhaps
> >given almost any context, that he would pray to himself -- CAC]
> I don't think it's a matter of the PRAYER being addressed to himself, but
> of the SPEAKING/SPEECH ACT being directed to himself.
This is certainly plausible. See below.

> >BDAG:
> >
> >The 3rd edition has an extensive discussion of PROS and cites the phrase
> >in Luke 18:11 under sense 3, subsense g. Sense 3 is the familiar "movement
> >or orientation toward s.o./s.t." and subsense g is "by, at, near". However,
> >the actual gloss given for the phrase in Luke is "he uttered a prayer to
> >himself". This strikes me as not likely given that the verb is PROSHUCETO.
> >
> >There is another subsense in BDAG to sense 3, subsense e: "with reference/
> >regard to", "about". This sense seems most plausible to me in that it
> >matches most closely what the Pharisee does, namely, pray about himself.
> I think that BDAG has been slightly misrepresented here: I read
> (substituting Arabic for the Greek lower-case subsections):
> (3) w. acc. "marker of movement or orientation toward someone/something;
> (a) of going;
> (b) of sending;
> (c) of motion generally;
> (d) of leading, guiding;
> (e) of saying speaking;
> (f) of asking, praying: DEOMAI Acts 8:24;
> EUCOMAI cf. 2 Macc 9:13; 2 Cor 13:7;
> PROSEUCOMAI; Also after nouns like DEHSIS,
> LOGOS et al Rom 10:1, 2 Cor 1:18 al.
Please correct me if I am not correct, but I don't think I've misrepresented
BDAG. All of (a) through (f) are subsenses of BDAG's "circled a" :

3 ...marker of movement or orientation toward someone/someth.--"circled a"

(then follow sub-sub-senses alpha through zeta -- your (a) through (f).

Iver and I were referring to "circled g", starting at the bottom the
first column of p.875 and not having any greek-letter sub-sub-senses.

> It does seem to me that sense (f) is really an extension of sense (e),
> particularly inasmuch as LOGOS PROS QEON is used (Rom 10:1) of prayer to
> God.
> Consequently, and especially in view of the frequency of Luke's usage of
> PROS + pronoun with verbs of speaking or address, it seems to me that the
> easiest way to understand TAUTA PROS hEAUTON PROSHUCETO is that the
> Pharisee may well have intended and hoped that God would hear his words (he
> does, after all, use hO QEOS, the common nom. for vocative, in his opening
> direct his prayer to God), but he directs the speech, the spoken words TO
> Back to Grundmann's suggestion cited above, "that he prayed to himself
> rather than to God", I think it's not so much that he didn't address the
> words of his prayer to God as that he spoke aloud the words of the prayer

All of this is perfectly plausible and perhaps more plausible than my
own suggestion as it makes use of a more central meaning of PROS.


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