[b-greek] Re: Lk 18:13; TWi hAMARTWLWi

From: Harry W. Jones (hjbluebird@aol.com)
Date: Sun Dec 02 2001 - 06:06:24 EST


Dear Steven,

Well I thought that your position on this was "Par Excellence" but
when you said that wasn't you position I then went back over all
your posts trying to determine your true position. But I really
couldn't determine your position from your posts. Also I couldn't
determine Carl's position. The good news is that I believe I know
Carlton position.

I have been trying to determine why almost all of my translations
use "a sinner" in translation. I believe now I understand why. They
take TWi hAMARTWLWi as attributing sinfulness to MOI thereby making the
tax collector a sinner. So I have reached my goal at last and I'm
finally happy after having gone over so many bumpy roads to get there.
Now I can go back to my reading through Wallace.

Best Regards,
Harry Jones

> On Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 09:11 PM, Harry W. Jones wrote:
>
> > Dear Steven,
> >
> > After looking up hAMARTWLWi in BAGD 2000 3ed it seems more likely
> > to me that TWi hAMARTWLWi is attributive to MOI and is in the
> > third attributive position.
>
> Well, I guess we can add this to the long list of conclusions you have
> already reached. I can only hope for your sake you run out of reference
> works soon, before your tree runs out of limbs. :-)
>
> Seriously, though, let's deal with this latest revision:
>
> (1) hAMARTWLOS is used 47 times in the NT. According to Accordance, in
> 38 of these instances, it is substantival, and in only 9 cases is it
> adjectival (in those 38 instances Accordance actually tags hAMARTWLOS as
> a noun). I think 9 is high, but I'm trying to be as fair as possible. So
> hAMARTWLOS in the NT is far more likely to be a substantive than an
> adjective.
>
> (2) Note the construction personal pronoun-article-noun (13 times not
> counting Luke 18.13, which Accordance also tags as a noun: Mark 7.6;
> Luke 11.39,42-43,46,52; 12.4; Acts 4.11; 1 Cor 4.9; Eph 2.11; 3.1; 4.1;
> 2 Tim. 1.8). By the very nature of things, the article-noun
> constructions in these verses cannot be attributive. They must be
> appositive. This is important to remember as we move to the next point.
>
> (3) As far as I can tell, the construction personal
> pronoun-article-adjective occurs 5 times in the NT (Luke 6.24; John
> 6.70; Rom 15.1; Gal 6.1; Eph 3.8; as I said, Accordance tags hAMARTWLWi
> in Luke 18.13 as a noun). Keeping in mind the analogy of personal
> pronoun-article-noun above, I think we can see that understanding the
> adjectives in these cases as substantival is not only perfectly
> natural, but preferable. And, again keeping in mind the analogy, I think
> taking them attributively involves thinking in English rather than
> Greek. I can't think of one good reason why we should understand any of
> these as attributive, especially with the analogy afforded us by the
> construction with nouns above.
>
> (4) Taking TWi hAMARTWLWi (and all the above adjectives) as attributive
> is, in my opinion, just plain awkward compared to taking it as an
> appositive. "To the sinful me" seems to me just as awkward in Greek as
> it is in English. When you apply this to the above examples it is
> equally awkward ("the twelve yous," John 6.70; "to the least of all
> saints me," Eph 3.8). It seems much more natural to take these as
> substantival adjectives in apposition. And that this involves thinking
> in Greek (I can hear the objection already) is supported, as I have
> already said, by the analogy of the personal pronouns with the
> appositive nouns.
> =============
>
> Steven Lo Vullo
> Madison, WI

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