[b-greek] Re: John 3:8

From: c stirling bartholomew (cc.constantine@worldnet.att.net)
Date: Tue Dec 04 2001 - 20:36:25 EST


on 12/4/01 3:00 PM, Denny A Diehl wrote:

> Denny Diehl to David Fox,
>
>> I have a query concerning John 3:8,
>>
>> TO PNEUMA hOPOU QELEI PNEI, KAI THN FWNHN AUTOU AKOUEIS,
>> ALL' OUK OIDAS POQEN ERCETAI KAI POU hUPAGEI hOUTWS ESTIN
>> PAS hO GEGENNHMENOS EK TOU PNEUMATOS.
>>
>> Most tranlations put, 'The wind blows where it wishes etc.' whereas
>> Jay Green in his MKJV has, 'The Spirit breathes where He desires etc.'
>> Apparently John Wycliff translated it the same as Green.
>
> Several years ago I noted several translations of Jn 3:8:
>
> "The Spirit brethith where he wole, and herist his vois,
> but thou wost not, fro whennis he commeth, ne
> whidir he goith; So is each man that is borun of the
> Spirit." -Wyclif @ 1375AD
>
> "The wynde bloweth where it listeth and thou hearest
> his sounde: butt thou canst not tell whence it commeth
> and whither he goeth. So is every man that is boren of
> the sprete." -Tyndale @ 1525AD
>
> From the time of Tyndale (Bishops Bible, King James, etc.) have
> translated PNEUMA ... PNEI as Wind blows. But notice also the
> Roman Catholic Rheims-Douay @ 1582AD
>
> "The Spirit breathes where he will; and thou hearest his
> voice, but thou knowest not whence he commeth and
> whither he goeth: so is every one that is borne of the
> Spirit."
>
>> It makes it harder when PNEUMA and PNEI both have double meanings.
>
> As far as I know the only place in the NT other than perhaps Jn 3:8
> where PNEUMA is translated by wind is Heb 1:7
>
> "Who makes His angels winds..."
>
> being a quote from
>
> "He makes the winds His messengers"
> -Psm 104:4
>
> Is there another "wind" translation of PNEUMA in the NT?

David and Denny,

I checked PNEUMA & wind using the RSV and found only Jn 3:8. So if using the
RSV the answer is no. However doing the same search with the LXX and the RSV
the following citations were found. Note that the LXX isn't the basis for
the RSV which is translated from the MT, but there will be some examples
here worth looking at anyway.

Gen. 8:1 Ex. 15:10 Num. 11:31 1Kings 18:45 1Kings 19:11 2Kings 3:17 Job 1:19
Job 8:2 Job 15:2 Job 30:15 Psa. 11:6 Psa. 48:7 Psa. 78:39 Psa. 103:16 Psa.
104:4 Psa. 107:25 Psa. 147:18 Psa. 148:8 Eccl. 1:6 Eccl. 1:14 Eccl. 1:17
Eccl. 2:11 Eccl. 2:17 Eccl. 2:26 Eccl. 4:4 Eccl. 4:6 Eccl. 4:16 Eccl. 6:9
Is. 7:2 Is. 11:15 Is. 26:18 Is. 27:8 Jer. 4:11 Jer. 4:12 Jer. 49:32 Ezek.
1:4 Ezek. 5:2 Ezek. 13:11 Ezek. 27:26 Hos. 4:19 Hos. 12:1 Amos 4:13 Jonah
1:4 Jonah 4:8 Mic. 2:11 Hab. 1:11 Zech. 5:9

As Carl has pointed out already, translating the first half of this as Jay
Green did destroys the figure of speech. Perhaps we can forgive Wyclif* for
this but Jay Green has no excuse.

greetings

clay


--
Clayton Stirling Bartholomew
Three Tree Point
P.O. Box 255 Seahurst WA 98062

*Wyclif being the founder of SIL he probably was doing a dynamic equivalence
translation, no? :-)))


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