From: c stirling bartholomew (email@example.com)
Date: Sun Feb 03 2002 - 13:52:06 EST
Iver, in his first post on 1Thes 5:10 discounted the LXX use of KAQEUDW.
Nobody challenged him on this at the time, but someone should have. Let's
just take a look at Dan 12:2 in context.
Dan. 12:1-3 Old Greek
DAN. 12:1 KAI KATA THN WRAN EKEINHN PARELEUSETAI MICAHL O AGGELOS O MEGAS O
ESTHKWS EPI TOUS UIOUS TOU LAOU SOU EKEINH H HMERA QLIYEWS OIA OUK EGENHQH
AF OU EGENHQHSAN EWS THS HMERAS EKEINHS KAI EN EKEINH TH HMERA UYWQHSETAI
PAS O LAOS OS AN EUREQH EGGEGRAMMENOS EN TW BIBLIW
12:2 KAI POLLOI TWN KAQEUDONTWN EN TW PLATEI THS GHS ANASTHSONTAI OI MEN EIS
ZWHN AIWNION OI DE EIS ONEIDISMON OI DE EIS DIASPORAN KAI AISCUNHN AIWNION
12:3 KAI OI SUNIENTES FANOUSIN WS FWSTHRES TOU OURANOU KAI OI KATISCUONTES
TOUS LOGOUS MOU WSEI TA ASTRA TOU OURANOU EIS TON AIWNA TOU AIWNOS
Dan. 12:1-3 Theod.
DAN. 12:1 KAI EN TW KAIRW EKEINW ANASTHSETAI MICAHL O ARCWN O MEGAS O
ESTHKWS EPI TOUS UIOUS TOU LAOU SOU KAI ESTAI KAIROS QLIYEWS QLIYIS OIA OU
GEGONEN AF OU GEGENHTAI EQNOS EPI THS GHS EWS TOU KAIROU EKEINOU KAI EN TW
KAIRW EKEINW SWQHSETAI O LAOS SOU PAS O EUREQEIS GEGRAMMENOS EN TH BIBLW
DAN. 12:2 KAI POLLOI TWN KAQEUDONTWN EN GHS CWMATI EXEGERQHSONTAI OUTOI EIS
ZWHN AIWNION KAI OUTOI EIS ONEIDISMON KAI EIS AISCUNHN AIWNION
DAN. 12:3 KAI OI SUNIENTES EKLAMYOUSIN WS H LAMPROTHS TOU STEREWMATOS KAI
APO TWN DIKAIWN TWN POLLWN WS OI ASTERES EIS TOUS AIWNAS KAI ETI
Now, having read both the OG and Theod. versions of this is there anyone
that wants to try and argue that KAQEUDW is NOT being used as a metaphor for
death in this context?
Old Gk: TWN KAQEUDONTWN EN TW PLATEI THS GHS
Theod: TWN KAQEUDONTWN EN GHS
both use KAQEUDW as a metaphor for death. The metaphor is made more obvious
by naming GH as the place of KAQEUDW, because only in trench warfare do
living men generally sleep in the earth. But this use of GH does not in any
manner weaken the status of KAQEUDW as a metaphor for death. KAQEUDW is
describing a STATE, so we have a STATE = STATE metaphor. GH is describing
the place, not the STATE.
Furthermore the semantic context in which this metaphor is used in Dan 12:2
is very closely connected with 1Thes 5:10. The issue is the the resurrection
at the parousia.
The SLEEP=DEATH metaphor is very well established with use of another word
KOIMAW. Lots of examples in LXX & GNT. The classic passage on this is found
in Jn 11:11 and context where Jesus explains the metaphor to his disciples.
This KOIMAW metaphor is used several times in 1thes 4:13-15 and for that
reason it can be considered and ACTIVE metaphor in the context of 1Thes
5:10. Being an ACTIVE metaphor, the switch to a semi synonym KAQEUDW in
IThes 5:10 should not give anyone heart burn.
Iver's argument would, if carried out consistently lead to concordant
translation. Of course Iver is a good linguist and he wouldn't dream of
doing a concordant translation.
I think we see here that F.Danker and Louw & Nida have done their homework
on KAQEUDW in 1Thes 5:10.
Iver and Moon in this thread remind me of a two man rope team half way up
Willis Wall* (Mt. Rainier). Iver has just free climbed a 40 foot lead,
anchored below by a Chinaurd R.U.R.P** firmly hammered into volcanic pumice.
Iver's left foot has just slipped . . .
Clayton Stirling Bartholomew
Three Tree Point
P.O. Box 255 Seahurst WA 98062
OFF TOPIC explanation of the last paragraph:
*Willis Wall is a mostly vertical 4,000ft face composed of pumice and ice on
the North side of Mt. Rainier between Curtis Ridge and Liberty Ridge. Back
in the days when I was climbing (late 70's) Willis Wall was considered a
suicide route because of the ice fall and rock fall. Blocks of ice the size
of aircraft carriers break off and fall over this face.
** Chinaurd R.U.R.P. (Realize Ultimate Reality Piton) was at one time the
smallest piton used for rock climbing. It was about the size of a razor
blade but thicker.
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