From: Carl W. Conrad (firstname.lastname@example.org)
Date: Wed Mar 13 2002 - 16:47:45 EST
At 4:23 PM -0500 3/13/02, Mike Sangrey wrote:
>I've gotten a few off-list replies, and I appreciate them. But I can
>see from those replies that the point of my question is somewhat
>missed. I'm asking a deeper question.
>In English, if I negate a progressive form, especially if the verb is
>already inherently progressive (like `go', `walk', `run'; unlike `die',
>`stop', `slap'), the entire action becomes perfective. "I'm not
>walking" means I'm in a STATE of "not walking". It seems to me it
>doesn't quite mean "I'm currently doing the activity of `not walking'."
>In other words, in English, at least with certain verbs, when you negate
>a progressive, you get something that looks kinda perfective.
I, for one, don't understand this formulation any more than I understood it
originally. It sounds to me like it's wholly a matter of some abstract
linguistic theory and doesn't reflect standard usage of these verbs.
"I am not walking" certainly doesn't mean to me, "I'm in a STATE of 'not
walking'", but takes its sense from the context in which it appears; it may
be a response to a question, "How are you goint to get to the concert
tonight?" Or it may be a response to a question, "Are you waiting for a
ride?" ("Yes, if I can get one, I certainly am not walking."
>This issue is made more difficult since in English, when I say, "I'm
>going" or "I'm not going" I also convey intention. This is unlike when
>I say, "I'm walking" or "I'm not slapping." So, in English, when I say
>"I'm not going" I'm not only negating the action of going, but I'm also
>negating the intention. This is problematic when translating this
>sentence. It may have also been problematic for the Greek since there
>appears to be a textual issue. For everyone's information some
>manuscripts have OUPW for OUK.
The text you originally cited does in fact have OUPW--or do you mean has
OUPW ANABAINW instead of OUK ANABAINW--yes, I see that there is that
variant in p66; but that still doesn't seem to me to alter the situation:
"I'm not going yet because my time hasn't yet come round."
I'm still, yet, and again having a problem figuring out where you're coming
(walking?) from with this question.
>Also, John 21:17 has a negated perfective ANABAINW and a progressive
>Furthermore, first person aorists appear to be "I went" and I can't
>imagine a way of meaning a punctiliar present `going' in the first
>person. Though it works in a second person imperative: "you go".
>So, my question has to do with whether the negation of 1st person
>present ANABAINW reflects the sense of "not presently doing the action
>of going." Sort of a "I"m currently not going."
>On Wed, 2002-03-13 at 14:24, Mike Sangrey wrote:
>> John 7:8
>> hUMEIS ANABHTE EIS THN hEORTHN: EGW OUK ANABAINW EIS THN hEORTHN
>> TAUTHN, hOTI hO EMOS KAIROS OUPW PEPLHRWTAI.
>> I noticed the second ANABAINW is present tense while the first is
>> aorist. In English we can't say, "you go up to the feast, I not go up
>> to this feast." I suspect that one CAN say that in Greek and therefore
>> there is a distinction in tense here. What I'm wondering is this: is
>> the sense of this sentence along the lines of:
>> You go up to the feast; I'm not presently going up to this feast
>> since I have some things I need to complete.
>> If it's translated as "you go up...I'm not going up..." the sense of the
>> second verb is actually more perfective in English than I think the
>> Greek conveys. Here, the English means, "I'm not now, nor ever, going
>> up." But the Greek isn't perfective, it's imperfective, being in the
>> present tense.
>> Does this make sense? What are your thoughts?
>> Thank you a head of time for your feedback.
> "The first one last wins."
> "A net of highly cohesive details reveals the truth."
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Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
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