Dear b-greekers, I hate to disagree with such sharp guys as MH, HH, and HWJ, to say nothing of HAWM, but I must side with Bengel and Ebrard on this one. [Holmyard] In BAGD, under KAI, at I.6, there is mention of KAI to introduce contrasts where there are two KAI's, yielding "although" . . ."yet." That is what the context in John 17:25 suggests. [Haggett] I don't think this does fit, because I don't see this contrast as being between the two KAIs but between the first KAI and the EGW DE. I suppose you could translate: "Righteous Father, although the world did not know you, (yet) I knew you ..." But to my mind this doesn't quite convey the TONE of what Jesus is saying here. That idea would more likely be expressed with a MEN ... DE construction. [Ghilardi] John doesn't like MEN...DE contrastive. He uses it far less than any other major NT writer. In fact, it never appears in his letters or Revelation and only 4 times in his gospel -- 10:41; 16:22; 19:32f; 20:30f. Instead, he employs the Semitic construction KAI...KAI in 6:36; 15:24 and 17:25. This structure may also be found in Ac 23:3; Lk 5:36 and Mk 9:22. I got these references from the article in BAGD mentioned by HH. In light of the above, we cannot say with MH that <> but rather that John is just as likely to use either construction. I agree that there is a contrast between the first KAI and the EGW DE, but this contrast is subordinate and parenthetical to the contrast between the two KAI's. So I would render the verse like this: "Righteous Father, THE WORLD does not know you, (though I know you), and yet THESE do know that you sent me." The parallel with v. 11 would suggest this take on v. 25: 25) KAI hO KOSMOS SE OUK EGNW, EGW DE SE EGNWN, KAI hOUTOI EGNWSAN hOTI SU ME APESTEILAS 11) KAI OUKETI EIMI EN TWi KOSMWi, KAI AUTOI EN TWi KOSMWi EISIN I would render v. 11 as: "I am no longer in the world, and yet THEY are in the world." The only major structural difference between the two vss. is the intervening DE clause in v. 25. John shows us the parenthetical nature of this clause by using a postpositive conjunction that is weaker than KAI. Grammatically, the DE clause is unecessary. The verse makes good sense without it, as does v. 11. But logically, the DE clause is needed because Jesus' knowledge of the Father is the link between the disciples' knowledge of Jesus and his mission and their knowledge of the Father. (I say this knowing that logic has had a bad rap on this list lately.) In other words: Because Jesus knows the Father and because the disciples know Jesus the disciples know the Father (as the world does not know Him) through the mission of Jesus. I believe that the above interpretation is entirely in keeping with the TONE of this prayer. cf vss. 11, 14, 16, 18, 23. Yours in His grace, Richard Ghilardi -- qodeshlayhvh@juno.com New Haven, CT USA Nibai kaurno hwaiteis gadriusando in airtha gaswiltith, silbo ainata aflifnith: ith jabai gaswiltith, manag akran bairith. ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. --- B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek You are currently subscribed to b-greek as: [jwrobie@mindspring.com] To unsubscribe, forward this message to leave-b-greek-327Q@franklin.oit.unc.edu To subscribe, send a message to subscribe-b-greek@franklin.oit.unc.edu