From steve.carton@retrievalsystems.com Wed Apr  4 06:30:54 2007
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="Boundary_(ID_Yd1QrCueto3kHO/BNy0frQ)"
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 09:30:49 -0400
From: Steve Carton <steve.carton@retrievalsystems.com>
Subject: RE: Processing DIS 29500 (OOXML)
In-reply-to: 
 <OF72E0954C.A744A7DB-ON852572B3.0047F963-852572B3.0049E1E2@lotus.com>
To: robert_weir@us.ibm.com, patrick@durusau.net
Cc: Dave Welsh <dave.welsh@microsoft.com>,
        Doug Mahugh <Doug.Mahugh@microsoft.com>,
        Frank Farance <frank@farance.com>, Jerry Smith <jerry.smith@disa.mil>,
        Jon Bosak <jon.bosak@sun.com>,
        "Levine, Leonard F CIV DISA GES-E" <Leonard.Levine@disa.mil>,
        "Price, Lynne" <lprice@ix.netcom.com>,
        "Mason, James David (MXM)" <masonjd@y12.doe.gov>,
        Norm Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com>, Rex Jaeschke <rex@RexJaeschke.com>,
        Richard Barber <Richard.Barber@mindjet.com>,
        Ron Silletti <silletti@us.ibm.com>,
        Tim Schoechle <timothy@schoechle.org>
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5
Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
Thread-topic: Processing DIS 29500 (OOXML)
Thread-index: Acd2vPV+k0KPglZJQtig7ZAkfUuZ1AAAGh7Q
X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296
X-MS-Has-Attach: 
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--Boundary_(ID_Yd1QrCueto3kHO/BNy0frQ)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

I wonder -- would a BLOG style of communication/interaction be
appropriate here?
 
Steve

________________________________

From: robert_weir@us.ibm.com [mailto:robert_weir@us.ibm.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 9:27 AM
To: patrick@durusau.net
Cc: Dave Welsh; Doug Mahugh; Frank Farance; Jerry Smith; Jon Bosak;
Levine, Leonard F CIV DISA GES-E; Price, Lynne; Mason, James David
(MXM); Norm Walsh; Rex Jaeschke; Richard Barber; Ron Silletti; Steve
Carton; Tim Schoechle
Subject: Re: Processing DIS 29500 (OOXML)



A lot to think of here. 

To your list I'd add a private web page or ftp site for posting large
documents, such as related ISO standards, or even the DIS 29500
materials linked to in this ballot, which I understand is different than
the version submitted to JTC1 originally.   So we all need access to the
current materials. 

As for public comments, we definitely should think about how to do this
efficiently.  I know that other NB's were inundated with comments, often
to their business or personal email addresses.  If we can avoid the
chaos while at the same time being responsive to the public, this would
be preferred.  Whether we want it or not, public comments will come.
The question is whether we want to take steps now to make this a more
orderly process? 

Are you able to get to ISO_CommentsTemplate.zip, which is the template
for entering comments?  I'd recommend that we submit our final comments
in ODF if possible.  We can map the data model of the template to
conventions for the email comments, such as your "pd:1:11.3.1
Alternative Format Import Part" example, and generate the ODF document
automatically from the email comments. 

-Rob 
___________________________

Rob Weir
Software Architect
Workplace, Portal and Collaboration Software
IBM Software Group

email: robert_weir@us.ibm.com
phone: 1-978-399-7122
blog: http://www.robweir.com/blog/ 



Patrick Durusau <patrick@durusau.net> 

04/04/2007 08:29 AM 
Please respond to
patrick@durusau.net


To
Frank Farance <frank@farance.com>, Jon Bosak <jon.bosak@sun.com>,
"Price, Lynne" <lprice@ix.netcom.com>, Dave Welsh
<dave.welsh@microsoft.com>, Doug Mahugh <Doug.Mahugh@microsoft.com>, Rex
Jaeschke <rex@RexJaeschke.com>, Steve Carton
<steve.carton@retrievalsystems.com>, Jerry Smith <jerry.smith@disa.mil>,
Norm Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com>, Richard Barber
<Richard.Barber@mindjet.com>, Robert Weir <robert_weir@us.ibm.com>,
"Levine, Leonard F CIV DISA GES-E" <Leonard.Levine@disa.mil>, Tim
Schoechle <timothy@schoechle.org>, "Mason, James David (MXM)"
<masonjd@y12.doe.gov>, Ron Silletti <silletti@us.ibm.com> 
cc
Subject
Processing DIS 29500 (OOXML)

	




Greetings!

As I noted in my post yesterday, we have until June 17, 2007 to prepare 
the recommended position on DIS 29500.

Having slept on it I have some more specific suggestions on how we 
should proceed.

1. Obviously we need a mail reflector for V1 members. I will talk to 
Frank Farance about this but I do have a question:

Should we have a public archive of our discussions?

My personal opinion is yes since the ISO standards process is supposed 
to be "transparent." I take that to mean that the discussions in that 
process should be available to anyone who wants to see them.

2. Do we need a public list for the submission of comments from members 
of the public?

OASIS has such lists and I can attest that they have been helpful any 
number of times in finding bugs in standards.

I am less certain that we need an email list in the traditional sense 
because feelings are running high enough on all sides to make an open 
list too much traffic to be useful.

On the other hand, a widely publicized webpage for comments that forces 
choice of a part and section, so that the comments can be automatically 
sorted could be really useful. I don't have any illusions about our 
committee being able to review every nook and cranny of DIS 29500.

The results from such a webpage should be public for the same reasons as

the proposed discussion list for the committee.

3. Comments by V1 Members

I have reviewed the membership list and at least at this point we all 
appear to have unique initials.

My suggestion on comments is that we use the subject line to contain our

initials, followed by a colon, followed by the part, colon and then the 
section number and heading of the portion of OOXML we are commenting on.

Thus,

pd:1:11.3.1 Alternative Format Import Part

That will be very helpful in terms of marshalling all the comments and 
responses on a particular section for discussion.

I don't have a definitive date on the OOXML topic map that my handlers 
are preparing under my direction and I don't want to wait until that is 
certain one way or the other to setup mechanisms for our discussions. If

the software proves useful for the committee, we can always import any 
data we have generated by that point anyway.

4. Processing comments and developing the US recommended position

I think we need a two-stage process for the development of the US 
recommended position.

a. We need to process the comments and decide if we accept the comments,

without deciding on what impact any particular comment has on the 
ultimate recommended position. That will enable us to develop a basis on

which to formulate our ultimate position.

b. After processing of our comments, then we use those comments as the 
basis for our recommendation on the US position.

5. Sharing V1 comments with other NBs.

The formulation of the recommended US position may or may not include 
comments. However, I would like to suggest that as we develop our 
position on particular comments, I would like to share those with other 
NBs. Given the size and complexity of the proposal, being aware of our 
comments may cause other NBs to develop comments on areas that we have 
not had time to consider.

6. Evaluation and adoption of comments

I really don't know how many comments we are going to generate as V1 
members nor how many comments will appear from members of the public.

There are several ways we can process the comments.

Although I distrust wikis, it might not be a bad idea to post the 
comments to a wiki where only V1 members could vote and we can both 
comment as well as indicate our vote of yes or no on each issue. From 
what I understand of Drupal, it has the ability to control who votes and

to show the results of the votes.

In the absence of the soon to appear topic map software that might be a 
better processing model than what I have suggested above.

Noting that in any event I will have to use the INCITS comment template 
to prepare whatever comments are accepted by the committee to be 
included with the ballot results reflecting our ultimate position.

I am not opposed to having weekly teleconferences, say on Fridays, to 
discuss a given set of comments.

7. Recommendation (yes, you were looking for this part)

I suspect that as we near the end of the process we are going to need a 
face to face meeting to go over the final set of comments accepted by 
the committee and to develop our recommendation.

Not knowing how many comments we will accept or the nature of those 
comments, it is hard for me to say how long such a meeting would last.

I do think that we need to have teleconferencing facilities so any 
members who cannot physically attend can be present for the meeting.

Noting that the ballot is due on 17 June 2007, might we consider having 
a face to face starting on the 14th or 15th of June?

By that point we should have a set of comments that have been agreed 
upon by V1 and I assume that we will want to refine those and develop 
our final recommendation.

Thoughts? Comments?

Hope everyone is having a great day!

Patrick

-- 
Patrick Durusau
Patrick@Durusau.net
Chair, V1 - Text Processing: Office and Publishing Systems Interface
Co-Editor, ISO 13250, Topic Maps -- Reference Model
Member, Text Encoding Initiative Board of Directors, 2003-2005

Topic Maps: Human, not artificial, intelligence at work! 





--Boundary_(ID_Yd1QrCueto3kHO/BNy0frQ)
Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=us-ascii">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.6000.16414" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=091103013-04042007><FONT face=Arial 
color=#0000ff size=2>I wonder -- would a BLOG style of communication/interaction 
be appropriate here?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=091103013-04042007><FONT face=Arial 
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=091103013-04042007><FONT face=Arial 
color=#0000ff size=2>Steve</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> robert_weir@us.ibm.com 
[mailto:robert_weir@us.ibm.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, April 04, 2007 9:27 
AM<BR><B>To:</B> patrick@durusau.net<BR><B>Cc:</B> Dave Welsh; Doug Mahugh; 
Frank Farance; Jerry Smith; Jon Bosak; Levine, Leonard F CIV DISA GES-E; Price, 
Lynne; Mason, James David (MXM); Norm Walsh; Rex Jaeschke; Richard Barber; Ron 
Silletti; Steve Carton; Tim Schoechle<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Processing DIS 
29500 (OOXML)<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>A lot to think of here.</FONT> 
<BR><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>To your list I'd add a private web page or 
ftp site for posting large documents, such as related ISO standards, or even the 
DIS 29500 materials linked to in this ballot, which I understand is different 
than the version submitted to JTC1 originally. &nbsp; So we all need access to 
the current materials.</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>As for public 
comments, we definitely should think about how to do this efficiently. &nbsp;I 
know that other NB's were inundated with comments, often to their business or 
personal email addresses. &nbsp;If we can avoid the chaos while at the same time 
being responsive to the public, this would be preferred. &nbsp;Whether we want 
it or not, public comments will come. &nbsp;The question is whether we want to 
take steps now to make this a more orderly process?</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT 
face=sans-serif size=2>Are you able to get to ISO_CommentsTemplate.zip, which is 
the template for entering comments? &nbsp;I'd recommend that we submit our final 
comments in ODF if possible. &nbsp;We can map the data model of the template to 
conventions for the email comments, such as your "pd:1:11.3.1 Alternative Format 
Import Part" example, and generate the ODF document automatically from the email 
comments.</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>-Rob</FONT> <BR><FONT 
face=sans-serif size=2>___________________________<BR><BR>Rob Weir<BR>Software 
Architect<BR>Workplace, Portal and Collaboration Software<BR>IBM Software 
Group<BR><BR>email: robert_weir@us.ibm.com<BR>phone: 1-978-399-7122<BR>blog: 
http://www.robweir.com/blog/</FONT> <BR><BR><BR>
<TABLE width="100%">
  <TBODY>
  <TR vAlign=top>
    <TD width="40%"><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><B>Patrick Durusau 
      &lt;patrick@durusau.net&gt;</B> </FONT>
      <P><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>04/04/2007 08:29 AM</FONT> 
      <TABLE border=1>
        <TBODY>
        <TR vAlign=top>
          <TD bgColor=white>
            <DIV align=center><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>Please respond 
            to<BR>patrick@durusau.net</FONT></DIV></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></P>
    <TD width="59%">
      <TABLE width="100%">
        <TBODY>
        <TR vAlign=top>
          <TD>
            <DIV align=right><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>To</FONT></DIV>
          <TD><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>Frank Farance 
            &lt;frank@farance.com&gt;, Jon Bosak &lt;jon.bosak@sun.com&gt;, 
            "Price, Lynne" &lt;lprice@ix.netcom.com&gt;, Dave Welsh 
            &lt;dave.welsh@microsoft.com&gt;, Doug Mahugh 
            &lt;Doug.Mahugh@microsoft.com&gt;, Rex Jaeschke 
            &lt;rex@RexJaeschke.com&gt;, Steve Carton 
            &lt;steve.carton@retrievalsystems.com&gt;, Jerry Smith 
            &lt;jerry.smith@disa.mil&gt;, Norm Walsh &lt;ndw@nwalsh.com&gt;, 
            Richard Barber &lt;Richard.Barber@mindjet.com&gt;, Robert Weir 
            &lt;robert_weir@us.ibm.com&gt;, "Levine, Leonard F CIV DISA GES-E" 
            &lt;Leonard.Levine@disa.mil&gt;, Tim Schoechle 
            &lt;timothy@schoechle.org&gt;, "Mason, James David (MXM)" 
            &lt;masonjd@y12.doe.gov&gt;, Ron Silletti 
            &lt;silletti@us.ibm.com&gt;</FONT> 
        <TR vAlign=top>
          <TD>
            <DIV align=right><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>cc</FONT></DIV>
          <TD>
        <TR vAlign=top>
          <TD>
            <DIV align=right><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>Subject</FONT></DIV>
          <TD><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>Processing DIS 29500 
        (OOXML)</FONT></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR>
      <TABLE>
        <TBODY>
        <TR vAlign=top>
          <TD>
          <TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><BR><BR><TT><FONT 
size=2>Greetings!<BR><BR>As I noted in my post yesterday, we have until June 17, 
2007 to prepare <BR>the recommended position on DIS 29500.<BR><BR>Having slept 
on it I have some more specific suggestions on how we <BR>should 
proceed.<BR><BR>1. Obviously we need a mail reflector for V1 members. I will 
talk to <BR>Frank Farance about this but I do have a question:<BR><BR>Should we 
have a public archive of our discussions?<BR><BR>My personal opinion is yes 
since the ISO standards process is supposed <BR>to be "transparent." I take that 
to mean that the discussions in that <BR>process should be available to anyone 
who wants to see them.<BR><BR>2. Do we need a public list for the submission of 
comments from members <BR>of the public?<BR><BR>OASIS has such lists and I can 
attest that they have been helpful any <BR>number of times in finding bugs in 
standards.<BR><BR>I am less certain that we need an email list in the 
traditional sense <BR>because feelings are running high enough on all sides to 
make an open <BR>list too much traffic to be useful.<BR><BR>On the other hand, a 
widely publicized webpage for comments that forces <BR>choice of a part and 
section, so that the comments can be automatically <BR>sorted could be really 
useful. I don't have any illusions about our <BR>committee being able to review 
every nook and cranny of DIS 29500.<BR><BR>The results from such a webpage 
should be public for the same reasons as <BR>the proposed discussion list for 
the committee.<BR><BR>3. Comments by V1 Members<BR><BR>I have reviewed the 
membership list and at least at this point we all <BR>appear to have unique 
initials.<BR><BR>My suggestion on comments is that we use the subject line to 
contain our <BR>initials, followed by a colon, followed by the part, colon and 
then the <BR>section number and heading of the portion of OOXML we are 
commenting on. <BR>Thus,<BR><BR>pd:1:11.3.1 Alternative Format Import 
Part<BR><BR>That will be very helpful in terms of marshalling all the comments 
and <BR>responses on a particular section for discussion.<BR><BR>I don't have a 
definitive date on the OOXML topic map that my handlers <BR>are preparing under 
my direction and I don't want to wait until that is <BR>certain one way or the 
other to setup mechanisms for our discussions. If <BR>the software proves useful 
for the committee, we can always import any <BR>data we have generated by that 
point anyway.<BR><BR>4. Processing comments and developing the US recommended 
position<BR><BR>I think we need a two-stage process for the development of the 
US <BR>recommended position.<BR><BR>a. We need to process the comments and 
decide if we accept the comments, <BR>without deciding on what impact any 
particular comment has on the <BR>ultimate recommended position. That will 
enable us to develop a basis on <BR>which to formulate our ultimate 
position.<BR><BR>b. After processing of our comments, then we use those comments 
as the <BR>basis for our recommendation on the US position.<BR><BR>5. Sharing V1 
comments with other NBs.<BR><BR>The formulation of the recommended US position 
may or may not include <BR>comments. However, I would like to suggest that as we 
develop our <BR>position on particular comments, I would like to share those 
with other <BR>NBs. Given the size and complexity of the proposal, being aware 
of our <BR>comments may cause other NBs to develop comments on areas that we 
have <BR>not had time to consider.<BR><BR>6. Evaluation and adoption of 
comments<BR><BR>I really don't know how many comments we are going to generate 
as V1 <BR>members nor how many comments will appear from members of the 
public.<BR><BR>There are several ways we can process the 
comments.<BR><BR>Although I distrust wikis, it might not be a bad idea to post 
the <BR>comments to a wiki where only V1 members could vote and we can both 
<BR>comment as well as indicate our vote of yes or no on each issue. From 
<BR>what I understand of Drupal, it has the ability to control who votes and 
<BR>to show the results of the votes.<BR><BR>In the absence of the soon to 
appear topic map software that might be a <BR>better processing model than what 
I have suggested above.<BR><BR>Noting that in any event I will have to use the 
INCITS comment template <BR>to prepare whatever comments are accepted by the 
committee to be <BR>included with the ballot results reflecting our ultimate 
position.<BR><BR>I am not opposed to having weekly teleconferences, say on 
Fridays, to <BR>discuss a given set of comments.<BR><BR>7. Recommendation (yes, 
you were looking for this part)<BR><BR>I suspect that as we near the end of the 
process we are going to need a <BR>face to face meeting to go over the final set 
of comments accepted by <BR>the committee and to develop our 
recommendation.<BR><BR>Not knowing how many comments we will accept or the 
nature of those <BR>comments, it is hard for me to say how long such a meeting 
would last.<BR><BR>I do think that we need to have teleconferencing facilities 
so any <BR>members who cannot physically attend can be present for the 
meeting.<BR><BR>Noting that the ballot is due on 17 June 2007, might we consider 
having <BR>a face to face starting on the 14th or 15th of June?<BR><BR>By that 
point we should have a set of comments that have been agreed <BR>upon by V1 and 
I assume that we will want to refine those and develop <BR>our final 
recommendation.<BR><BR>Thoughts? Comments?<BR><BR>Hope everyone is having a 
great day!<BR><BR>Patrick<BR><BR>-- <BR>Patrick 
Durusau<BR>Patrick@Durusau.net<BR>Chair, V1 - Text Processing: Office and 
Publishing Systems Interface<BR>Co-Editor, ISO 13250, Topic Maps -- Reference 
Model<BR>Member, Text Encoding Initiative Board of Directors, 
2003-2005<BR><BR>Topic Maps: Human, not artificial, intelligence at work! 
<BR><BR><BR></FONT></TT><BR></BODY></HTML>

--Boundary_(ID_Yd1QrCueto3kHO/BNy0frQ)--

