From masonjd@y12.doe.gov Fri May 25 13:51:40 2007 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 16:50:27 -0400 From: "Mason, James David (MXM)" Subject: RE: FW: Request for Interpretation on INCITS TC Rules w.r.t a TAG's ability to share info with the general public In-reply-to: To: Steve Carton , jon.bosak@sun.com, robert_weir@us.ibm.com, rexjaeschke@hotmail.com, dave.welsh@microsoft.com, doug.mahugh@microsoft.com, eduardo.gutentag@sun.com, frank@farance.com, jerry.smith@disa.mil, ktrainor@ligent.net, leonard.levine@disa.mil, lprice@txstruct.com, ndw@nwalsh.com, patrick@durusau.net, richard.barber@mindjet.com, timothy@schoechle.org X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Thread-topic: FW: Request for Interpretation on INCITS TC Rules w.r.t a TAG's ability to share info with the general public Thread-index: AceeLBoQe7M9gHWkRAS1+B9JaKkOXgAAwZ0AADdvlgA= X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 May 2007 20:50:27.0100 (UTC) FILETIME=[52CEEDC0:01C79F0E] The only long-term objection from the ISO perspective is an IPR one: ISO claims copyright on standards once they get to DIS level. The long-time background of this is that many of the NBs were also publishing houses, and their main source of income was the sale of standards. (Remember that ISO and the NBs work in many fields besides IT, and not everyone is so online oriented as the folks in JTC1 and SC34 in particular.) So they try to control the distribution of standards. They'll sell you a copy of SGML for 230 Swiss Francs (or of the defunct ODIF for 202 CHF). Most of us have gotten used to the model in W3C, OASIS, and the like, where everything is free and online. When SC34 finishes a standard, we have to make a special effort to keep it that way in ISO, for example by indicating that ODF belongs to OASIS and not ISO, so we can post ISO/IEC 23600 online. Even so, they keep trying to sell paper copies of our stuff: RELAX NG (19757-2) is out there for sale at 126 CHF. Maybe some day they'll update their business model, but in the mean time they try to keep us from putting too much else out to view. But our working papers are something else. No copyright. We can make our discussions as public as we please, and for 26 years V1 has been very public. Jim Mason -----Original Message----- From: Steve Carton [mailto:steve.carton@retrievalsystems.com] Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 2:13 PM To: jon.bosak@sun.com; robert_weir@us.ibm.com; rexjaeschke@hotmail.com; dave.welsh@microsoft.com; doug.mahugh@microsoft.com; eduardo.gutentag@sun.com; frank@farance.com; jerry.smith@disa.mil; ktrainor@ligent.net; leonard.levine@disa.mil; lprice@txstruct.com; Mason, James David (MXM); ndw@nwalsh.com; patrick@durusau.net; richard.barber@mindjet.com; timothy@schoechle.org Subject: RE: FW: Request for Interpretation on INCITS TC Rules w.r.t a TAG's ability to share info with the general public What is the argument against full public disclosure? -----Original Message----- From: jon.bosak@sun.com [mailto:jon.bosak@sun.com] Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 1:47 PM To: robert_weir@us.ibm.com; rexjaeschke@hotmail.com; dave.welsh@microsoft.com; doug.mahugh@microsoft.com; eduardo.gutentag@sun.com; frank@farance.com; jerry.smith@disa.mil; jon.bosak@sun.com; ktrainor@ligent.net; leonard.levine@disa.mil; lprice@txstruct.com; masonjd@y12.doe.gov; ndw@nwalsh.com; patrick@durusau.net; richard.barber@mindjet.com; Steve Carton; timothy@schoechle.org Subject: Re: FW: Request for Interpretation on INCITS TC Rules w.r.t a TAG's ability to share info with the general public I have read the relevant INCITS directives, and I have read every message on this list relating to public visibility of V1 work. I can see no reference to any INCITS policy that would bar the publication of *any* email posted in these discussions. I see a request from Rex to INCITS looking for some policy that could be used to keep these discussions secret, and I see Lynn Barra of INCITS not finding one. But I don't see anything that would prevent me or any other V1 member from sharing the content of these discussions with the public. V1 does not now have, and in the 12 years I've been a member never has had, a policy of secrecy in its deliberations. It does not now operate, and in the 12 years I've been a member never has operated, in a restricted mode. I therefore consider every message exchanged in these discussions appropriate for public distribution. To repeat what I said to this group 17 May: I want it clearly understood that I personally intend to share with the public anything that I think it in the public interest for the public to know -- including anything exchanged via email in this group. The standards promulgated by the agencies involved in this work can and sometimes do have the force of law. The public good requires that the process by which such standards are created be open to view. If people believe that what they have to say in this forum won't stand the light of day, they shouldn't say it. In the interest of everyone involved, therefore, I think it would be wise of the group to expose the complete record of its discussions in order to guarantee fair and complete reporting unfiltered by anyone's particular bias. Jon ================================================================== Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 10:47:01 +0200 From: robert_weir@us.ibm.com Subject: Re: FW: Request for Interpretation on INCITS TC Rules w.r.t a TAG's ability to share info with the general public To: Rex Jaeschke Cc: "'Dave Welsh'" , "'Doug Mahugh'" , "'Eduardo Gutentag'" , "'Frank Farance'" , "'Jerry Smith'" , "'Jon Bosak'" , "'Kevin Trainor'" , "'Levine, Leonard F CIV DISA GES-E'" , "'Lynne A. Price'" , "'Mason, James David (MXM)'" , "'Norm Walsh'" , patrick@durusau.net, "'Richard Barber'" , "'Steve Carton'" , "'Tim Schoechle'" Just so it is clear to everyone, I intend to post all of the comments I personally submit to V1 to my personal web site. I will also solicit public comments on them, including people who may have the audacity to live in other countries. In the end my comments are my words and I see nothing in the INCITS agreement that grants INCITS exclusive rights to them. Password protect my document for V1 purposes if you see necessary, but I'll be posting the original, unprotected. Of course, I'll represent these as being my own thoughts, and not necessarily representing the views of INCITS or V1. Regards, -Rob ___________________________ Rob Weir Software Architect Workplace, Portal and Collaboration Software IBM Software Group email: robert_weir@us.ibm.com phone: 1-978-399-7122 blog: http://www.robweir.com/blog/