From owner-incits-v1@incits-v1.org Sun Jun 24 14:46:44 2007
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Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 17:46:00 -0400
From: robert_weir@us.ibm.com
Subject: RE: INCITS-V1: NamingDIS29500-Durasau-12
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Office Open XML is commonly misstated as Open Office XML, where Open
Office is the name of a product that competes directly against MS Office.
I've given numerous examples of actual confusion caused by this choice of
name. I've also cited the precedent of C++/CLI where just last year
another Ecma Fast Track with a similarly confusing name, a confusion which
Ecma also refused to address when it was raised in the contradiction
period, leading to the ultimate defeat of that Fast Track. So commenting
on the name of a standard, by this precedent, is clearly in scope for JTC1
NB reviews of Fast Track submissions.
I would not presume that we as V1 name the standard ourselves. LOX was
suggested in jest. But I do propose (or actually second the proposal)
that we submit a comment requesting that Ecma change the name of the
standard to one which is not confused with existing technologies.
-Rob
___________________________
Rob Weir
Software Architect
Workplace, Portal and Collaboration Software
IBM Software Group
email: robert_weir@us.ibm.com
phone: 1-978-399-7122
blog: http://www.robweir.com/blog/
owner-incits-v1@incits-v1.org wrote on 06/24/2007 05:07:50 PM:
> Hi Rob?
>
> On May 24th, Patrick said:
> > But, we are all adults, or at least of legal age, so even given the
> > history that some of the members of V1 "enjoy", I think we can be
civil.
> >
> > That is not meant to suggest that anyone should not feel free to say
> > whatever they like, but be aware that some comments are less likely to
> > produce useful responses than others.
>
> Will the change of a name really make this a better (or worse)
> standard for the US?
>
> I would argue that suggesting we rename from OOXML to LOX is not
> only demeaning to members of this committee that are actively creating
*new
> * document formats (i.e. Xinnovation) built on OOXML but also to the
> publisher of OOXML (i.e. ECMA).
>
> OOXML is distinctly different enough from ODF (having only one word
> the same) for us ?civilized? beings to distinguish.
>
> I believe in our last meeting, the argument was made, by you, that
> we should not be considering ?current market factors? as a way to
> determine a standard. And yet your research, below, is clearly based
> on ?current market factors?.
>
> Also on May 24th, Rob (yes, you) said (referring to ?home field
advantage?):
> > In any case, I have no interest in that kind of tactic.
>
> Are you comments below just a different kind of tactic or are they
> meant to add some kind of value to the integrity if this committee?s
> comments? If they are meant to add value, can you please help me and
> this committee understand how submitting a comment that suggests we
> rename the standard to the initials of a common flavor of cream
> cheese will in any way contribute to making this a better standard.
>
> Have an awesome day!
>
> Cheers,
> -Stephen
>
> From: owner-incits-v1@incits-v1.org
[mailto:owner-incits-v1@incits-v1.org]
> On Behalf Of robert_weir@us.ibm.com
> Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 3:06 PM
> To: incits-v1@incits-v1.org
> Subject: Re: INCITS-V1: NamingDIS29500-Durasau-12
>
>
>
> >
> > What *does* move me to agree that the name "Office Open XML"
> > should be changed is that it is designed to cause confusion with
> > OpenOffice, a leading open-source ODF application. It is not the
> > purpose of the standards we work on to cause confusion, and
> > certainly not to deliberately cause confusion. The name should be
> > changed to something that avoids this confusion rather than
> > actively promoting it.
> >
> > Jon
> >
>
> I'd second that. I've done some research in this area to see how
> often the name of the standard is misstated as "Open Office XML".
> This is happening everywhere, and by doing so is causing user
> confusion as well as diluting the value of the Open Office
> trademark. For examples, query Google for "Ecma Open Office XML" or
> "Microsoft Open Office XML". You should get zero hits for these
> phrases, but instead you get hundreds of hits, from the press, from
> analysts, even from Microsoft.
>
> I've updated my analysis of this problem here: http://www.robweir.
> com/blog/2007/01/amusing-but-still-confusing.html
>
> I'd like to see us submit a comment requesting a name change. Maybe
> "Legacy Office XML" or LOX.
>
> -Rob
>
> ___________________________
>
> Rob Weir
> Software Architect
> Workplace, Portal and Collaboration Software
> IBM Software Group
>
> email: robert_weir@us.ibm.com
> phone: 1-978-399-7122
> blog: http://www.robweir.com/blog/
--Boundary_(ID_ylOmroXI3FsaMSY0eAag2Q)
Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Office Open XML is commonly misstated
as Open Office XML, where Open Office is the name of a product that competes
directly against MS Office. I've given numerous examples of actual
confusion caused by this choice of name. I've also cited the precedent
of C++/CLI where just last year another Ecma Fast Track with a similarly
confusing name, a confusion which Ecma also refused to address when it
was raised in the contradiction period, leading to the ultimate defeat
of that Fast Track. So commenting on the name of a standard, by
this precedent, is clearly in scope for JTC1 NB reviews of Fast Track submissions.
I would not presume that we as V1 name
the standard ourselves. LOX was suggested in jest. But I do
propose (or actually second the proposal) that we submit a comment requesting
that Ecma change the name of the standard to one which is not confused
with existing technologies.
-Rob
___________________________
Rob Weir
Software Architect
Workplace, Portal and Collaboration Software
IBM Software Group
email: robert_weir@us.ibm.com
phone: 1-978-399-7122
blog: http://www.robweir.com/blog/
owner-incits-v1@incits-v1.org wrote on 06/24/2007
05:07:50 PM:
> Hi Rob…
>
> On May 24th, Patrick said:
> > But, we are all adults, or at least of legal
age, so even given the
> > history that some of the members of V1 "enjoy", I think
we can be civil.
> >
> > That is not meant to suggest that anyone should not feel free
to say
> > whatever they like, but be aware that some comments are less
likely to
> > produce useful responses than others.
>
> Will the change of a name really make this a
better (or worse)
> standard for the US?
>
> I would argue that suggesting we rename from
OOXML to LOX is not
> only demeaning to members of this committee that are actively creating
*new
> * document formats (i.e. Xinnovation) built on OOXML but also to the
> publisher of OOXML (i.e. ECMA).
>
> OOXML is distinctly different enough from ODF
(having only one word
> the same) for us “civilized” beings to distinguish.
>
> I believe in our last meeting, the argument was
made, by you, that
> we should not be considering “current market factors” as a way to
> determine a standard. And yet your research, below, is clearly based
> on “current market factors”.
>
> Also on May 24th, Rob (yes, you) said (referring
to “home field advantage”):
> > In any case, I have no interest in that
kind of tactic.
>
> Are you comments below just a different kind
of tactic or are they
> meant to add some kind of value to the integrity if this committee’s
> comments? If they are meant to add value, can you please help me and
> this committee understand how submitting a comment that suggests we
> rename the standard to the initials of a common flavor of cream
> cheese will in any way contribute to making this a better standard.
>
> Have an awesome day!
>
> Cheers,
> -Stephen
>
> From: owner-incits-v1@incits-v1.org [mailto:owner-incits-v1@incits-v1.org]
> On Behalf Of robert_weir@us.ibm.com
> Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 3:06 PM
> To: incits-v1@incits-v1.org
> Subject: Re: INCITS-V1: NamingDIS29500-Durasau-12
>
>
>
> >
> > What *does* move me to agree that the name "Office Open
XML"
> > should be changed is that it is designed to cause confusion with
> > OpenOffice, a leading open-source ODF application. It is
not the
> > purpose of the standards we work on to cause confusion, and
> > certainly not to deliberately cause confusion. The name
should be
> > changed to something that avoids this confusion rather than
> > actively promoting it.
> >
> > Jon
> >
>
> I'd second that. I've done some research in this area to see
how
> often the name of the standard is misstated as "Open Office XML".
> This is happening everywhere, and by doing so is causing user
> confusion as well as diluting the value of the Open Office
> trademark. For examples, query Google for "Ecma Open Office
XML" or
> "Microsoft Open Office XML". You should get zero hits
for these
> phrases, but instead you get hundreds of hits, from the press, from
> analysts, even from Microsoft.
>
> I've updated my analysis of this problem here: http://www.robweir.
> com/blog/2007/01/amusing-but-still-confusing.html
>
> I'd like to see us submit a comment requesting a name change. Maybe
> "Legacy Office XML" or LOX.
>
> -Rob
>
> ___________________________
>
> Rob Weir
> Software Architect
> Workplace, Portal and Collaboration Software
> IBM Software Group
>
> email: robert_weir@us.ibm.com
> phone: 1-978-399-7122
> blog: http://www.robweir.com/blog/
--Boundary_(ID_ylOmroXI3FsaMSY0eAag2Q)--