From - Sun Oct 13 15:32:45 2002
X-UIDL: 322730638
X-Mozilla-Status: 1003
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A6D871D300E2; Sun, 13 Oct 2002 15:17:44 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A6D6875600C6; Sun, 13 Oct 2002 15:17:42 -0400
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id SW4S4Y47; Sun, 13 Oct 2002 15:17:12 -0400
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Sun Oct 13 15:21:59 2002 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 0806 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sun, 13 Oct 2002 15:17:18 -0400
Received: from 216.136.130.22 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Sun, 13 Oct 2002 15:17:17 -0400
Received: from [12.84.236.226] by web21203.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 13 Oct
          2002 12:17:07 PDT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID:  <20021013191707.22615.qmail@web21203.mail.yahoo.com>
Date:         Sun, 13 Oct 2002 12:17:07 -0700
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Dale Wilson <nosliwelad@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its head)
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <037401c27249$bc5f3390$ee903a42@jeffu9jv0ylyde>
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@[209.42.192.246]>
X-UIDL: 322730638
Status: U

Jeff and Lawrence,

Jeff wrote:
> Under the new USDA guidelines for compost practices, fully in effect
> by Oct 21, 2002, compost teas are no longer allowed or recognized as
> organic for foodstuffs production.

>> What a travesty of justice and perversion of
>> science...

Lawrence wrote:
>> Until the public recognizes the need to preserve the best farmland
in
>> the regions local to where they
>> live and work in order to ensure that farmers have prime soil in
>> which they can grow fresh, nutritious,
>> healthy and clean food...

Am I missing something here?  Isn't this about technical aspects of
making compost tea?

Here is the core of what I read from the Task Force recommendations
that Jeff posted:

"Recommendation: Compost teas if used in contact with crops less than
120 days before harvest must be made from high quality compost
described above and not prepared with addition of supplemental
nutrients such as sugars, molasses or other readily available
(soluble) carbon sources."

Based on what the research found, the recommendation doesn't sound
unreasonable.  I don't think they were *prohibiting* "compost teas",
but trying to make their use safer.  Don't you think it is possible
(given the variability of compost) that an inexperienced operator could
brew up highly pathogenic stuff by making what amounts to a nutrient
broth and inoculating it with low quality compost?

Dale


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
http://faith.yahoo.com

.

From - Sun Oct 13 16:02:45 2002
X-UIDL: 322730639
X-Mozilla-Status: 1011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AD635D3E00EC; Sun, 13 Oct 2002 15:45:39 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AD60DA7D0052; Sun, 13 Oct 2002 15:45:36 -0400
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id SW4S4ZJ4; Sun, 13 Oct 2002 15:45:20 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 0820 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sun, 13 Oct 2002 15:45:29 -0400
Received: from 205.158.62.78 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Sun, 13 Oct 2002 15:45:29 -0400
Received: (qmail 2784 invoked from network); 13 Oct 2002 19:45:15 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO jeffu9jv0ylyde)
          (jeff:gardener.com?iname.com@66.58.144.238) by
          205-158-62-78.outblaze.com with SMTP; 13 Oct 2002 19:45:15 -0000
References:  <20021013191707.22615.qmail@web21203.mail.yahoo.com>
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106
Message-ID:  <007701c272f1$34afdaa0$ee903a42@jeffu9jv0ylyde>
Date:         Sun, 13 Oct 2002 11:46:20 -0800
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Jeff Lowenfels <jeff@GARDENER.COM>
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its head)
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@[209.42.192.246]>
X-UIDL: 322730639
Status: U

Dale doesn't think the compost tea rule of the NOSB is unreasonable.

Sure, Dale, it looks reasonable, but first, the inexperience person wouldn't
be making compost tea under your description. Compost by the definition of
the NOSB rules has to be made properly with out pathogens. So why go after
those who want to add sugars to increase beneficial bacteria?

Second, there was NO research....nothing that was peer reviewed, at least.
The studies that were apparently relied upon were flawed and not peer
reviewed. This whole issue of compost tea rules is a political one and I am
becoming convinced it is because certain people, some of whom are on this
list, want to take down Dr. Elaine Ingham. One had the nerve to call those
who follow her work, a cult.......There is some real jealousy here and it
has manifested itself in a senseless rule that can only increase the
reliance on pesticides, fungicides and chemical fertilizers. Too bad.
Academics can be such assholes and do so much damage.

The idea behind  aerobic compost teas is to get the organisms in the compost
to multiply and quickly and in greater numbers than traditional methods. The
process works. The aeration kills any e. coli should there be any in the
compost  due to "inexperienced persons."  The USDA is way out of line on
this one and  IMHO, the rule won't stand.

However, this still doesn't help the NOSP. It is DOA.....

Cheers,

Jeff

.

From - Sun Oct 13 16:29:59 2002
X-UIDL: 322730640
X-Mozilla-Status: 1011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A494682600DE; Sun, 13 Oct 2002 16:16:20 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A492641200B8; Sun, 13 Oct 2002 16:16:18 -0400
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id SW4S4ZSG; Sun, 13 Oct 2002 16:15:59 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 0831 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sun, 13 Oct 2002 16:16:08 -0400
Received: from 216.158.94.14 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Sun, 13 Oct 2002 16:16:08 -0400
Received: from HOME [63.81.228.149] by dragonbbs.com (SMTPD32-7.10) id
          A0AF18A90126; Sun, 13 Oct 2002 15:59:43 -0400
References:  <20021013191707.22615.qmail@web21203.mail.yahoo.com> 
             <007701c272f1$34afdaa0$ee903a42@jeffu9jv0ylyde>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00D3_01C272D3.E6F2C150"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
X-RBL-Warning: DSN: Not supporting null originator (DSN)
X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Declude JunkMail (www.declude.com) for spam.
Message-ID:  <00d601c272f5$70352400$7be4513f@HOME>
Date:         Sun, 13 Oct 2002 16:16:35 -0400
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Perry Clutts <addy@DRAGONBBS.COM>
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its head)
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@[209.42.192.246]>
X-UIDL: 322730640
Status: U

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_00D3_01C272D3.E6F2C150
Content-Type: text/plain;
        charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Jeff (others),

>Second, there was NO research....nothing that was peer reviewed, at =
least.
>The studies that were apparently relied upon were flawed and not peer
>reviewed.=20

I understand the research showed that e-coli was grown in aerobic =
compost tea that had molasses added. I thought e-coli was an anaerobic =
organism. Can anyone explain how the e-coli was able to grow in the =
aerobic conditions?=20

I agree with you Jeff.. that the compost rules (turning and temperature) =
were to make certain there is no e-coli present. If the e-coli was not =
present in the compost, where did it come from? Is the researcher on =
this list or does anyone know who it is? How about a copy of the paper =
on the Internet?

thanks,
Perry





------=_NextPart_000_00D3_01C272D3.E6F2C150
Content-Type: text/html;
        charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2719.2200" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#fdfbdb>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Narrow">Jeff (others),</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Narrow"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Narrow">
<DIV>&gt;Second, there was NO research....nothing that was peer =
reviewed, at=20
least.<BR>&gt;The studies that were apparently relied upon were flawed =
and not=20
peer<BR>&gt;reviewed. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I understand the research showed that e-coli was grown in aerobic =
compost=20
tea that had molasses added. I thought e-coli was an anaerobic organism. =
Can=20
anyone explain how&nbsp;the e-coli was able to grow in the aerobic =
conditions?=20
</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I agree with you Jeff.. that the compost rules (turning and =
temperature)=20
were to make certain there is no e-coli present. If the e-coli was not =
present=20
in the compost, where&nbsp;did it come from? Is the researcher on this =
list or=20
does anyone know who it is? How about a copy of the paper on the =
Internet?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>thanks,</DIV>
<DIV>Perry</DIV></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Narrow"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Narrow"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Narrow"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Narrow"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_00D3_01C272D3.E6F2C150--

.

From - Sun Oct 13 16:29:59 2002
X-UIDL: 322730641
X-Mozilla-Status: 1011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A583C32100C4; Sun, 13 Oct 2002 16:20:22 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A58381000AC; Sun, 13 Oct 2002 16:20:19 -0400
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id SW4S4Z9A; Sun, 13 Oct 2002 16:19:48 -0400
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Sun Oct 13 16:24:35 2002 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 0840 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sun, 13 Oct 2002 16:19:54 -0400
Received: from 209.42.192.250 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Sun, 13 Oct 2002 16:19:53 -0400
Received: from intrex.net [209.42.230.67] by intrex.net with ESMTP
          (SMTPD32-5.05) id A561DB180052; Sun, 13 Oct 2002 16:19:45 -0400
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1)
            Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <20021013191707.22615.qmail@web21203.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Declude-Sender: lfl@intrex.net [209.42.230.67]
Message-ID:  <3DAA0159.9040200@intrex.net>
Date:         Sun, 13 Oct 2002 16:27:21 -0700
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@INTREX.NET>
Organization: http://market-farming.com  --  Venaura Farm
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its head)
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@[209.42.192.246]>
X-UIDL: 322730641
Status: U

Dale Wilson wrote:
> Jeff and Lawrence,
> Jeff wrote:
>>Under the new USDA guidelines for compost practices, fully in effect
>>by Oct 21, 2002, compost teas are no longer allowed or recognized as
>>organic for foodstuffs production.
>>>What a travesty of justice and perversion of
>>>science...
> Lawrence wrote:
>>>Until the public recognizes the need to preserve the best farmland
>>>in the regions local to where they live and work in order to ensure that
 >>>farmers have prime soil in which they can grow fresh, nutritious,
>>>healthy and clean food...

> Am I missing something here?  Isn't this about technical aspects of
> making compost tea?

I was trying to illustrate the situation many small farmers seeking to sell locally
have been facing, increasingly over the years as farmland gets replaced by crackerbox
housing developments and impersonal shopping malls. The NOP compost regulations are
one of many reasons small growers will not seek organic certification and thus be deprived
of their fair share of the marketplace, one they have earned over many decades.
It looks like a vertically integrated effort to drive them out of business,
with the help of the NOP,  and remove all traces of what was once a thriving American industry
from the countryside.
Look at the corrrosive effects drugs have had on rural life and rural economies -
Consider the degenerate culture that has followed this intrusion into the lives of people
who were and in some cases still are the backbone of this country. Wall St., corporate management
and dividends are not the whole picture. Look at all the costs involved.
Mexican workers on corporate farms instead of families running their own operations
with outside help from neighboring farms.

> Here is the core of what I read from the Task Force recommendations
> that Jeff posted:
>
> "Recommendation: Compost teas if used in contact with crops less than
> 120 days before harvest must be made from high quality compost
> described above and not prepared with addition of supplemental
> nutrients such as sugars, molasses or other readily available
> (soluble) carbon sources."
>
> Based on what the research found, the recommendation doesn't sound
> unreasonable.  I don't think they were *prohibiting* "compost teas",
> but trying to make their use safer.  Don't you think it is possible
> (given the variability of compost) that an inexperienced operator could
> brew up highly pathogenic stuff by making what amounts to a nutrient
> broth and inoculating it with low quality compost?

Interesting you would intimate that some certified organic farmers might perform
their duties in such a sloppy and irresponsible way and that those farms might
even think of allowing "an inexperienced operator" to have access to such critical
materials processing.

My original point stands, if there's no ecoli (the bad strain) in the compost
then there will be none in the enriched tea, no matter what nutrients are added
to it during the brewing.

Don't you think any farmer going to the trouble to get organic certification would be
acutely aware of the potential for generating harmful pathogens in compost and compost tea
to be used on their crops to be sold to their customers? The safety of their products
would be the one thing they would be the most concerned with. I think that by the time
they see it as economically feasable to seek organic certification that their skill
levels and business acumen would have developed to a high state.

--
L.F.London
lfl@intrex.net
http://market-farming.com
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/pcwiki/index.php/london

.

From - Sun Oct 13 17:22:46 2002
X-UIDL: 322730644
X-Mozilla-Status: 1011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A2524514002C; Sun, 13 Oct 2002 17:14:58 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A24EC84B0040; Sun, 13 Oct 2002 17:14:54 -0400
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id SW4S472A; Sun, 13 Oct 2002 17:13:35 -0400
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Sun Oct 13 17:18:23 2002 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 0870 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sun, 13 Oct 2002 17:13:42 -0400
Received: from 202.248.37.208 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Sun, 13 Oct 2002 17:13:41 -0400
Received: from [192.168.0.2] by mail500.nifty.com (8.12.6/3.7W-07/15/02) with
          ESMTP id g9DLDHur009772 for <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Mon, 14
          Oct 2002 06:13:17 +0900
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Sender: wildcard%journeytoforever.org@mail.itsamac.com
References: <20021013191707.22615.qmail@web21203.mail.yahoo.com>
            <3DAA0159.9040200@intrex.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Message-ID:  <v04210112b9cf8b986034@[192.168.0.2]>
Date:         Mon, 14 Oct 2002 06:11:08 +0900
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Keith Addison <keith@JOURNEYTOFOREVER.ORG>
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its head)
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <3DAA0159.9040200@intrex.net>
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@[209.42.192.246]>
X-UIDL: 322730644
Status: U

Hi Lawrence, Dale and all

>Dale Wilson wrote:
>>Jeff and Lawrence,
>>Jeff wrote:
>>>Under the new USDA guidelines for compost practices, fully in effect
>>>by Oct 21, 2002, compost teas are no longer allowed or recognized as
>>>organic for foodstuffs production.
>>>>What a travesty of justice and perversion of
>>>>science...
>>Lawrence wrote:
>>>>Until the public recognizes the need to preserve the best farmland
>>>>in the regions local to where they live and work in order to ensure that
> >>>farmers have prime soil in which they can grow fresh, nutritious,
>>>>healthy and clean food...
>
>>Am I missing something here?  Isn't this about technical aspects of
>>making compost tea?
>
>I was trying to illustrate the situation many small farmers seeking
>to sell locally
>have been facing, increasingly over the years as farmland gets
>replaced by crackerbox
>housing developments and impersonal shopping malls. The NOP compost
>regulations are
>one of many reasons small growers will not seek organic
>certification and thus be deprived
>of their fair share of the marketplace, one they have earned over
>many decades.
>It looks like a vertically integrated effort to drive them out of business,
>with the help of the NOP,  and remove all traces of what was once a
>thriving American industry
>from the countryside.
>Look at the corrrosive effects drugs have had on rural life and
>rural economies -
>Consider the degenerate culture that has followed this intrusion
>into the lives of people
>who were and in some cases still are the backbone of this country.
>Wall St., corporate management
>and dividends are not the whole picture. Look at all the costs involved.
>Mexican workers on corporate farms instead of families running their
>own operations
>with outside help from neighboring farms.
>
>>Here is the core of what I read from the Task Force recommendations
>>that Jeff posted:
>>
>>"Recommendation: Compost teas if used in contact with crops less than
>>120 days before harvest must be made from high quality compost
>>described above and not prepared with addition of supplemental
>>nutrients such as sugars, molasses or other readily available
>>(soluble) carbon sources."
>>
>>Based on what the research found, the recommendation doesn't sound
>>unreasonable.  I don't think they were *prohibiting* "compost teas",
>>but trying to make their use safer.  Don't you think it is possible
>>(given the variability of compost) that an inexperienced operator could
>>brew up highly pathogenic stuff by making what amounts to a nutrient
>>broth and inoculating it with low quality compost?
>
>Interesting you would intimate that some certified organic farmers
>might perform
>their duties in such a sloppy and irresponsible way and that those farms might
>even think of allowing "an inexperienced operator" to have access to
>such critical
>materials processing.
>
>My original point stands, if there's no ecoli (the bad strain) in the compost
>then there will be none in the enriched tea, no matter what
>nutrients are added
>to it during the brewing.
>
>Don't you think any farmer going to the trouble to get organic
>certification would be
>acutely aware of the potential for generating harmful pathogens in
>compost and compost tea
>to be used on their crops to be sold to their customers? The safety
>of their products
>would be the one thing they would be the most concerned with. I
>think that by the time
>they see it as economically feasable to seek organic certification
>that their skill
>levels and business acumen would have developed to a high state.

It's a basic and noxious assumption of this type of bureaucratism
(and of corporatism) that people are not competent to look after
themselves, not capable of getting it right on their own, have to be
told what to do and not left with any other choice. We must obey our
patriarchs. And hence the appalling deskilling of our societies - our
grandfathers were far more capable and competent than we are. Hence
too, in the extreme form, the example we've just been given of North
Korea. The opposite of that example, in a nation that was left in a
very similar position, is the amazing growth of organic agriculture
in Cuba. Groups of American farmers have been visiting Cuba and
returning not only impressed but inspired by the organic revolution
there. Not just Americans. Cuba also seems to put paid to the idea
that fossil fuels are a basic requirement of food production.

Best

Keith Addison
Journey to Forever

>--
>L.F.London
>lfl@intrex.net
>http://market-farming.com
>http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/pcwiki/index.php/london

.

From - Mon Oct 14 01:42:49 2002
X-UIDL: 322730664
X-Mozilla-Status: 1011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A69F258B0032; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 01:31:11 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A69B4DFA008E; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 01:31:07 -0400
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id SW4SV1CD; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 01:29:40 -0400
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Mon Oct 14 01:33:47 2002 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 1047 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 14 Oct 2002 01:29:05 -0400
Received: from 213.55.2.205 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 01:29:05 -0400
Received: from default (unknown [210.23.209.173]) by mail.gn.apc.org (Postfix)
          with ESMTP id EB53E14B62B for <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Mon, 14
          Oct 2002 06:28:51 +0100 (BST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Priority: normal
References: <3DAA0159.9040200@intrex.net>
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Content-description: Mail message body
Message-ID:  <3DAAB32B.6540.3D6B5@localhost>
Date:         Mon, 14 Oct 2002 12:06:03 +0800
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Roberto Verzola <rverzola@GN.APC.ORG>
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its head)
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <v04210112b9cf8b986034@[192.168.0.2]>
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@[209.42.192.246]>
X-UIDL: 322730664
Status: U

Cuba is a contradiction. Together with their organic program, they
seem to be pursuing GE technology very aggressively. This may
imply that they are going organic because they're forced to do so
by the lack of agro-chemicals.

Roberto


> Korea. The opposite of that example, in a nation that was left in a
> very similar position, is the amazing growth of organic agriculture
> in Cuba. Groups of American farmers have been visiting Cuba and
> returning not only impressed but inspired by the organic revolution
> there. Not just Americans. Cuba also seems to put paid to the idea
> that fossil fuels are a basic requirement of food production.
>
> Best
>
> Keith Addison
> Journey to Forever
>

.

From - Mon Oct 14 12:38:30 2002
X-UIDL: 322730681
X-Mozilla-Status: 1011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A0FF29E0154; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 12:29:51 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A0FCD960007C; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 12:29:48 -0400
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id SW4SVZAT; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 12:29:32 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 1690 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 14 Oct 2002 12:29:41 -0400
Received: from 216.136.175.8 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 12:29:41 -0400
Received: from [12.31.96.58] by web21206.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 14 Oct
          2002 09:29:31 PDT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID:  <20021014162931.86563.qmail@web21206.mail.yahoo.com>
Date:         Mon, 14 Oct 2002 09:29:31 -0700
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Dale Wilson <nosliwelad@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its head)
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <v04210112b9cf8b986034@[192.168.0.2]>
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@[209.42.192.246]>
X-UIDL: 322730681
Status: U

Keith and Lawrence,

I wrote:
>>>Based on what the research found, the recommendation doesn't sound
>>>unreasonable.  I don't think they were *prohibiting* "compost
>>> teas", but trying to make their use safer.

Lawrence (?) wrote:
>> Don't you think any farmer going to the trouble to get organic
>> certification would be acutely aware of the potential for
>> generating harmful pathogens in compost and compost tea
>> to be used on their crops to be sold to their customers?

Keith wrote:
> It's a basic and noxious assumption of this type of bureaucratism
> (and of corporatism) that people are not competent to look after
> themselves, not capable of getting it right on their own, have to be
> told what to do and not left with any other choice. We must obey our
> patriarchs.

In my gut I agree with you.  I don't like the bureaucratization and
professionalization of everything.  However, the (probably skewed)
perception of food-borne risk among the public will drive the compost
issue, just like it drove pasteurization and addition of sorbic acid to
commercial apple cider (I can't stand the taste of "cider" nowadays).
People will go to any bureaucratic length because they are so
risk-averse.  Personally I don't think that adding mollassas to compost
juice to get a microbial boost is likely to be an important hazard.

But isn't it possible to live with the recommendations?
1. Only use high quality compost
2. Don't add carbohydrate substrates if applied within 120 DOH

> And hence the appalling deskilling of our societies - our
> grandfathers were far more capable and competent than we are.

Being a generalist and do-it-yourselfer, you won't get any argument
from me on this.  But I'm not sure details of compost tea manufacture
are that relevant to this pervasive trend.  Anyone who makes compost
tea of any sort probably doesn't fall into the "deskilled" group!

Dale

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
http://faith.yahoo.com

.

From - Sat Oct 19 13:47:36 2002
X-UIDL: 322730994
X-Mozilla-Status: 1011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A6AC40FB013C; Sat, 19 Oct 2002 13:30:20 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A6971F3F003C; Sat, 19 Oct 2002 13:29:59 -0400
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VFM8CXYV; Sat, 19 Oct 2002 13:27:06 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 8222 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sat, 19 Oct 2002 13:27:17 -0400
Received: from 207.217.120.123 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f)
          with TCP; Sat, 19 Oct 2002 13:27:17 -0400
Received: from sdn-ap-001neomahp0244.dialsprint.net ([63.186.0.244]
          helo=maincomputer) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim
          3.33 #1) id 182xNQ-0005EH-00 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU; Sat, 19
          Oct 2002 10:27:04 -0700
References:  <20021013191707.22615.qmail@web21203.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Message-ID:  <00b901c27793$26af0f60$0100a8c0@maincomputer>
Date:         Sat, 19 Oct 2002 11:15:40 -0600
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Greg and April <gregandapril@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its head)
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322730994
Status: U

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dale Wilson" <nosliwelad@YAHOO.COM>
To: <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 13:17
Subject: [SANET-MG] Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its head)


>
> Am I missing something here?  Isn't this about technical aspects of
> making compost tea?
>
> Here is the core of what I read from the Task Force recommendations
> that Jeff posted:
>
> "Recommendation: Compost teas if used in contact with crops less than
> 120 days before harvest must be made from high quality compost
> described above and not prepared with addition of supplemental
> nutrients such as sugars, molasses or other readily available
> (soluble) carbon sources."
>
> Based on what the research found, the recommendation doesn't sound
> unreasonable.  I don't think they were *prohibiting* "compost teas",
> but trying to make their use safer.  Don't you think it is possible
> (given the variability of compost) that an inexperienced operator could
> brew up highly pathogenic stuff by making what amounts to a nutrient
> broth and inoculating it with low quality compost?
>

Are you forgetting that many crops are harvested under a 120 days?  Beans
70-90, Cantaloupe 60-90, Celery 115-135, Collards 75-80, Corn 62-94,
Cucumbers 50-70, Kale 60-70, Lettuce 40-83, Peas 55-78, Potatoes 100-120,
Squash 80-115, Tomatoes 52-90.  I don't see how anyone could fallow the
"recomendation", and still use compost tea to best effect, if at all.

Greg H.

Greg H.

.

From - Mon Oct 21 09:09:26 2002
X-UIDL: 322731076
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A8B2A46A0108; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 08:53:06 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A88111890210; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 08:52:17 -0400
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VFM8D614; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 08:52:08 -0400
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Mon Oct 21 08:56:54 2002 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 9028 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 21 Oct 2002 08:52:01 -0400
Received: from 216.136.130.18 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 08:52:01 -0400
Received: from [12.31.96.58] by web21202.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 21 Oct
          2002 05:51:48 PDT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID:  <20021021125148.37463.qmail@web21202.mail.yahoo.com>
Date:         Mon, 21 Oct 2002 05:51:48 -0700
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Dale Wilson <nosliwelad@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its head)
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <00b901c27793$26af0f60$0100a8c0@maincomputer>
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731076
Status: U

Greg,

>> "Recommendation: Compost teas if used in contact with crops less
>> than 120 days before harvest must be made from high quality compost
>> described above and not prepared with addition of supplemental
>> nutrients such as sugars, molasses or other readily available
>> (soluble) carbon sources."

> Are you forgetting that many crops are harvested under a 120 days?
> I don't see how anyone could fallow the "recomendation", and still
> use compost tea to best effect, if at all.

The recommendation would permit the use of compost tea made from high
quality compost any time, right up to harvest, as long as no soluble
exogenous food source is added.

I guess what you are really saying is that compost tea does not work
unless one adds sugar, or something like it, to the juice before
application.  Is that true?

Dale

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/

.

From - Mon Oct 21 11:49:32 2002
X-UIDL: 322731087
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AFDC17DC01D6; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 11:40:12 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AFBE13A5021A; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 11:39:42 -0400
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VFM81GLL; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 11:39:17 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 9303 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 21 Oct 2002 11:39:29 -0400
Received: from 207.217.120.22 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 11:39:29 -0400
Received: from sdn-ap-027neomahp0499.dialsprint.net ([65.178.209.245]
          helo=maincomputer) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim
          3.33 #1) id 183eeC-0003vw-00 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU; Mon, 21
          Oct 2002 08:39:16 -0700
References:  <20021021125148.37463.qmail@web21202.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Message-ID:  <009701c27916$6994dc40$f5d1b241@maincomputer>
Date:         Mon, 21 Oct 2002 09:27:47 -0600
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Greg and April <gregandapril@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its head)
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731087
Status: U

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dale Wilson" <nosliwelad@YAHOO.COM>
To: <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 06:51
Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its
head)


> Greg,
>
> >> "Recommendation: Compost teas if used in contact with crops less
> >> than 120 days before harvest must be made from high quality compost
> >> described above and not prepared with addition of supplemental
> >> nutrients such as sugars, molasses or other readily available
> >> (soluble) carbon sources."
>
>
> The recommendation would permit the use of compost tea made from high
> quality compost any time, right up to harvest, as long as no soluble
> exogenous food source is added.
>
> I guess what you are really saying is that compost tea does not work
> unless one adds sugar, or something like it, to the juice before
> application.  Is that true?
>

Alcohol ( diluted ) is a soluble carbon source, but, I don't see it as
adding to microbial activity, and it is easier for plants ( the ones that
can use it ) to up take it as a carbon source when high temps are involved.

Greg H.

.

From - Mon Oct 21 12:46:00 2002
X-UIDL: 322731092
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AD63B17400E0; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 12:37:55 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AD696DF0244; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 12:38:01 -0400
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VFM8124G; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 12:37:35 -0400
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Mon Oct 21 12:41:51 2002 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 9386 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 21 Oct 2002 12:36:57 -0400
Received: from 205.158.62.78 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 12:36:57 -0400
Received: (qmail 22186 invoked from network); 21 Oct 2002 16:36:41 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO jeffu9jv0ylyde)
          (jeff:gardener.com?iname.com@66.58.144.238) by
          205-158-62-78.outblaze.com with SMTP; 21 Oct 2002 16:36:41 -0000
References:  <20021021125148.37463.qmail@web21202.mail.yahoo.com>
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106
Message-ID:  <01a901c27920$2e23aec0$ee903a42@jeffu9jv0ylyde>
Date:         Mon, 21 Oct 2002 08:37:39 -0800
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Jeff Lowenfels <jeff@GARDENER.COM>
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its head)
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731092
Status: U

The idea behind compost tea is to increase the numbers of bacteria and
fungi, protozoa etc in the tea in a short time....say 24 to 36 hours.
Aeration and sugars increase bacterial counts.

One exception is tea made with NATURAL compost....We have such compost here
in Alaska. It is made over 10,000 years and has no manures, pesticides,
fungicides etc......and one of the highest counts of diversified bacteria
you can get.....up to 35,000 different kinds in a table spoon......You can
contact me off line if you want to buy some for tea brewers and remain
organic even if you use the tea within a day of sales......

Still, despite my business, the NOSB rule against sugar makes NO sense......

Cheers,

Jeff Lowenfels

.

From - Mon Oct 21 14:55:48 2002
X-UIDL: 322731104
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id ABB34D5C00E4; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 14:47:15 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id ABACFCF0282; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 14:47:08 -0400
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VFM81RTK; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 14:46:42 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 9655 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 21 Oct 2002 14:46:54 -0400
Received: from 216.136.175.253 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f)
          with TCP; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 14:46:54 -0400
Received: from [12.31.96.58] by web21210.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 21 Oct
          2002 11:46:40 PDT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID:  <20021021184640.12230.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com>
Date:         Mon, 21 Oct 2002 11:46:40 -0700
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Dale Wilson <nosliwelad@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its head)
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <009701c27916$6994dc40$f5d1b241@maincomputer>
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731104
Status: U

Greg,

>> I guess what you are really saying is that compost tea does not
>> work unless one adds sugar, or something like it, to the juice
>> before application.  Is that true?

> Alcohol ( diluted ) is a soluble carbon source, but, I don't see it
> as adding to microbial activity, and it is easier for plants ( the
> ones that can use it ) to up take it as a carbon source when high
> temps are involved.

I thought they were talking mainly about adding food sources for
microorganisms.  Alcohol can be a food for some microbes, but sugar is
better in general.  The idea behind addition of soluble food and
aeration is to induce multiplication of the (presumably) beneficial
microbes in the tea.  These would then be more effective at colonizing
and displacing pathogenic organisms from the plant surface, and/or
inducing systemic acquired resistance in the plant.

Back to my question. Is it really true that compost tea only works when
it is spiked with a food source and aerated before application?

If that is really how it works, a safer approach might be to get a
little culture tube of the right bacteria and use that to inoculate a
batch of sugar water and inorganic salts, aerate it and grow up a
tremendous crop of exactly the species you want.  I have done this with
biocontrol bacteria and it is very easy to do.

Dale

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/

.

From - Mon Oct 21 15:59:27 2002
X-UIDL: 322731115
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AAAE177A0140; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 15:51:10 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AAA9FEB027C; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 15:51:05 -0400
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VFM81W46; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 15:50:45 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 9704 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 21 Oct 2002 15:50:57 -0400
Received: from 149.168.11.11 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 15:40:56 -0400
Received: from ncsu.edu (hertford.ces.state.nc.us [207.4.227.68]) by
          ns.its.state.nc.us (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8+dfr) with ESMTP id PAA12990; Mon,
          21 Oct 2002 15:40:40 -0400 (EDT)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.4 sun4m)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <20021021184640.12230.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com>
            <3DB44FA1.4090907@pacificcoast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID:  <3DB45836.B3A25955@ncsu.edu>
Date:         Mon, 21 Oct 2002 15:40:38 -0400
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Byron Simonds <byron_simonds@NCSU.EDU>
Organization: North Carolina Cooperative Extension
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its head)
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731115
Status: U

>From reading Organic Gardening and Farming as well as Mother Earth News,
I thought the idea behind compost and manure "teas" were to leach out
the soluable nutrients in H2O in order to give a quick response from an
application to plants. Also there was work which showed some disease
suppression to compost tea sprays.

When did the addition on sugars come into play?

Heide Hermary wrote:
>
> Isn't that what EM is about, basically?
> Heide
>
> Dale Wilson wrote:
>
> >If that is really how it works, a safer approach might be to get a
> >little culture tube of the right bacteria and use that to inoculate a
> >batch of sugar water and inorganic salts, aerate it and grow up a
> >tremendous crop of exactly the species you want.  I have done this with
> >biocontrol bacteria and it is very easy to do.
> >
> >Dale
> >
> >__________________________________________________
> >Do you Yahoo!?
> >Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
> >http://webhosting.yahoo.com/
> >
> >
> >
> >

--
Byron Simonds
E-Mail  :Byron_Simonds@ncsu.edu
Phone   : (252) 358-7822
Fax       : (252) 358-7880

.

From - Mon Oct 21 16:04:41 2002
X-UIDL: 322731116
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AAF4149A0032; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 15:52:20 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AAEB755024E; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 15:52:11 -0400
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VFM81XAZ; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 15:51:53 -0400
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Mon Oct 21 15:56:33 2002 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 9756 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 21 Oct 2002 15:51:39 -0400
Received: from 205.158.62.78 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 15:51:39 -0400
Received: (qmail 23156 invoked from network); 21 Oct 2002 19:51:25 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO jeffu9jv0ylyde)
          (jeff:gardener.com?iname.com@209.112.209.169) by
          205-158-62-78.outblaze.com with SMTP; 21 Oct 2002 19:51:25 -0000
References:  <20021021184640.12230.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com>
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106
Message-ID:  <003001c2793b$6f4d1830$9865fea9@jeffu9jv0ylyde>
Date:         Mon, 21 Oct 2002 11:52:48 -0800
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Jeff Lowenfels <jeff@GARDENER.COM>
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its head)
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731116
Status: U

The idea behind the aeration and the nutrients is to rapidly increase
populations of bacterial and fungi.  You could inoculate a test tube and add
water and sugars, but the idea is for a lay person to be able to increase
the power of their own compost....not the power, but the "spread." It is
hard to cover a lawn with compost, but real easy to cover it with a compost
spray.....

Again, with Alaska Humus, you don't need bacterial food. The aeration alone
does the trick.

As for Alcohol, it kills plants and beneficial microbes.

Cheers,
Jeff L

.

From - Mon Oct 21 16:04:52 2002
X-UIDL: 322731117
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AB3E14E40032; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 15:53:34 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AB35768024E; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 15:53:25 -0400
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VFM81XZJ; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 15:52:27 -0400
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Mon Oct 21 15:57:14 2002 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 9763 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 21 Oct 2002 15:52:21 -0400
Received: from 205.158.62.78 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 15:52:21 -0400
Received: (qmail 23427 invoked from network); 21 Oct 2002 19:52:07 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO jeffu9jv0ylyde)
          (jeff:gardener.com?iname.com@209.112.209.169) by
          205-158-62-78.outblaze.com with SMTP; 21 Oct 2002 19:52:07 -0000
References: <20021021184640.12230.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com> 
            <3DB44FA1.4090907@pacificcoast.net>
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106
Message-ID:  <003b01c2793b$886b4d00$9865fea9@jeffu9jv0ylyde>
Date:         Mon, 21 Oct 2002 11:53:29 -0800
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Jeff Lowenfels <jeff@GARDENER.COM>
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its head)
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731117
Status: U

The problem with EM is that it only has limited diversity of microbes.

.

From - Mon Oct 21 23:24:13 2002
X-UIDL: 322731122
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A29D24AD0036; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 16:25:01 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A267C690250; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 16:24:07 -0400
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VFM81ZKJ; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 16:23:45 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 9826 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 21 Oct 2002 16:23:57 -0400
Received: from 64.4.23.66 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 16:23:57 -0400
Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon,
          21 Oct 2002 13:23:43 -0700
Received: from 152.1.24.181 by lw15fd.law15.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 21
          Oct 2002 20:23:43 GMT
X-Originating-IP: [152.1.24.181]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Oct 2002 20:23:43.0972 (UTC)
                       FILETIME=[C0864240:01C2793F]
Message-ID:  <F66CybyF9ew0y8DJcnU0000aba2@hotmail.com>
Date:         Mon, 21 Oct 2002 16:23:43 -0400
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Joel Gruver <jgruv@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its head)
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731122
Status: U

Hello to all,

I am wondering if anyone has actually experienced increased efficacy of
compost teas after culturing the teas with additives and aeration.

The reason I am a little skeptical is that the great maturity of soil
microorganisms (>95%) are unculturable using all known types of media (let
alone something very simple like glucose).

The addition of sugar and aeration will certainly increase the **total***
microbial population in a tea... however this increase will be selective...
you will shift the microbial community structure of your tea toward microbes
that are highly responsive to sugar and aeration... analogous to shifting a
diverse herbal ley to just a few grass species by fertilizing heavily with
N.

I wonder if this community shift is desireable in terms of optimizing the
disease suppressive (or other beneficial) effect of the tea.

I do not have much personal experience with compost teas and have not yet
done a lit review... but... the soil ecologist in me is skeptical.

If any of you have done on-farm comparisons or replicated research
investigating the compost tea "augmentation" metods that are currently
gaining in popularity, please share your experiences.

Joel

Joel Gruver
Dept of Soil Science
NC State University
jgruv@hotmail.com

>From: Jeff Lowenfels <jeff@GARDENER.COM>
>Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
><SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
>To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
>Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its
>head)
>Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 08:37:39 -0800
>
>The idea behind compost tea is to increase the numbers of bacteria and
>fungi, protozoa etc in the tea in a short time....say 24 to 36 hours.
>Aeration and sugars increase bacterial counts.
>
>One exception is tea made with NATURAL compost....We have such compost here
>in Alaska. It is made over 10,000 years and has no manures, pesticides,
>fungicides etc......and one of the highest counts of diversified bacteria
>you can get.....up to 35,000 different kinds in a table spoon......You can
>contact me off line if you want to buy some for tea brewers and remain
>organic even if you use the tea within a day of sales......
>
>Still, despite my business, the NOSB rule against sugar makes NO
>sense......
>
>Cheers,
>
>Jeff Lowenfels


_________________________________________________________________
Get a speedy connection with MSN Broadband.  Join now!
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp

.

From - Mon Oct 21 23:24:13 2002
X-UIDL: 322731123
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A58A3E7E003E; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 16:37:30 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A5826209003E; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 16:37:22 -0400
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VFM815CY; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 16:37:09 -0400
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Mon Oct 21 16:42:09 2002 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 9837 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 21 Oct 2002 16:37:15 -0400
Received: from 207.217.120.120 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f)
          with TCP; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 16:37:15 -0400
Received: from sdn-ap-001neomahp0372.dialsprint.net ([63.186.1.118]
          helo=maincomputer) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp
          (Exim 3.33 #1) id 183jIK-0002Ur-00 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 21 Oct 2002 13:37:01 -0700
References:  <20021021184640.12230.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Message-ID:  <002c01c2793f$ff0344a0$7601ba3f@maincomputer>
Date:         Mon, 21 Oct 2002 14:25:26 -0600
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Greg and April <gregandapril@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its head)
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731123
Status: U

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dale Wilson" <nosliwelad@YAHOO.COM>
To: <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 12:46
Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its
head)


>
> I thought they were talking mainly about adding food sources for
> microorganisms.  Alcohol can be a food for some microbes, but sugar is
> better in general.  The idea behind addition of soluble food and
> aeration is to induce multiplication of the (presumably) beneficial
> microbes in the tea.  These would then be more effective at colonizing
> and displacing pathogenic organisms from the plant surface, and/or
> inducing systemic acquired resistance in the plant.
>
> Back to my question. Is it really true that compost tea only works when
> it is spiked with a food source and aerated before application?
>
> If that is really how it works, a safer approach might be to get a
> little culture tube of the right bacteria and use that to inoculate a
> batch of sugar water and inorganic salts, aerate it and grow up a
> tremendous crop of exactly the species you want.  I have done this with
> biocontrol bacteria and it is very easy to do.
>

But then it is not "organic" is it.

When you get right down to it, a compost tea can be used in different ways,
and the way you plan on using it controls how it is made and the way the
nutrients in it, gets into the plant.

One way to use it, is as a foliar spray/drench, in this way the nutrients
are taken up thru the stoma in the leaves. This method it is not about
increasing the bacteria at all, but getting the soluble nutrients out of the
compost and into the plant directly.  And it is as simple as soak the
compost for a few hours, strain and apply.

Another way to use a compost tea, is to put it down around the roots to jump
start the bacteria in that area, and hence increase the nutrient uptake from
the root zone, but, the "tea" can splash up onto the foliage and/or
(depending on the plant) the edible part.

Take your pick, they both have pluses and minuses.

With ether method, you should not have any problems with pathogens as long
as people remember to rinse/wash the food before eating, after all, do you
go and eat right after going to the bathroom without washing?

Personally, I use dried molasses directly on/in my compost pile. When I have
an over abundance of N material, and I start to smell the ammonia, I
sprinkle a handful or two of the molasses in the dampest part for the
compost and mix in a couple of days I check and repeat if necessary.


Greg H.

.

From - Mon Oct 21 23:24:13 2002
X-UIDL: 322731124
X-Mozilla-Status: 0013
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A7BB5CBE00E4; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 16:46:51 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A7B491D020A; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 16:46:44 -0400
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VFM8159C; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 16:46:24 -0400
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Mon Oct 21 16:51:11 2002 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 9851 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 21 Oct 2002 16:46:18 -0400
Received: from 205.158.62.78 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 16:46:17 -0400
Received: (qmail 9996 invoked from network); 21 Oct 2002 20:46:04 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO jeffu9jv0ylyde)
          (jeff:gardener.com?iname.com@209.112.209.169) by
          205-158-62-78.outblaze.com with SMTP; 21 Oct 2002 20:46:04 -0000
References:  <F66CybyF9ew0y8DJcnU0000aba2@hotmail.com>
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106
Message-ID:  <005001c27943$119a74a0$9865fea9@jeffu9jv0ylyde>
Date:         Mon, 21 Oct 2002 12:47:25 -0800
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Jeff Lowenfels <jeff@GARDENER.COM>
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its head)
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731124
Status: U

Joel, there is a whole list serve of folks who have had positive and
demonstrable experiences. I, for one, have done lots of testing on my lawn
and gardens, with control areas etc.  if you go to Yahoo groups you will
find one on compost teas and can garner that information.

Also, we grow fungi as well as bacteria.....

Jeff L

.

From - Mon Oct 21 23:24:14 2002
X-UIDL: 322731125
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A7F7D28100E0; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 16:47:51 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A7F26448003C; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 16:47:46 -0400
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VFM816PH; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 16:47:11 -0400
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Mon Oct 21 16:51:58 2002 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 9856 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 21 Oct 2002 16:47:04 -0400
Received: from 205.158.62.78 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 16:47:04 -0400
Received: (qmail 10257 invoked from network); 21 Oct 2002 20:46:50 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO jeffu9jv0ylyde)
          (jeff:gardener.com?iname.com@209.112.209.169) by
          205-158-62-78.outblaze.com with SMTP; 21 Oct 2002 20:46:50 -0000
References: <20021021184640.12230.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com>           
            <3DB44FA1.4090907@pacificcoast.net>  <3DB45836.B3A25955@ncsu.edu>
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106
Message-ID:  <006501c27943$2d66b270$9865fea9@jeffu9jv0ylyde>
Date:         Mon, 21 Oct 2002 12:48:10 -0800
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Jeff Lowenfels <jeff@GARDENER.COM>
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its head)
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731125
Status: U

Manure teas are not compost teas. Two different things.

.

From - Mon Oct 21 23:24:14 2002
X-UIDL: 322731126
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A997D6D01EA; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 16:54:47 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A992D5C0186; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 16:54:42 -0400
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VFM817FL; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 16:54:27 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 9871 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 21 Oct 2002 16:54:39 -0400
Received: from 207.217.120.120 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f)
          with TCP; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 16:54:39 -0400
Received: from sdn-ap-001neomahp0372.dialsprint.net ([63.186.1.118]
          helo=maincomputer) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp
          (Exim 3.33 #1) id 183jZB-0006oe-00 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 21 Oct 2002 13:54:26 -0700
References:  <20021021184640.12230.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com> 
             <003001c2793b$6f4d1830$9865fea9@jeffu9jv0ylyde>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Message-ID:  <005701c27942$6e81d4c0$7601ba3f@maincomputer>
Date:         Mon, 21 Oct 2002 14:42:53 -0600
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Greg and April <gregandapril@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its head)
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731126
Status: U

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Lowenfels" <jeff@GARDENER.COM>
To: <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 13:52
Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its
head)


>
> As for Alcohol, it kills plants and beneficial microbes.
>

If used in high concentrations it will, but, in diluted form, it can be
applied to the ground or as a foliar spray and many plants particularly
those belonging to the C4 group, will use it as a carbon source, when they
would other wise be unable to up take CO2 on days when the heat has caused
them to close the stoma.

Greg H.

.

From - Mon Oct 21 23:24:15 2002
X-UIDL: 322731130
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AC533BE2003C; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 20:31:15 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AC4D13E90228; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 20:31:09 -0400
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VFM8FBJC; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 20:30:49 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 9952 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 21 Oct 2002 20:31:02 -0400
Received: from 64.4.23.50 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 20:31:02 -0400
Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon,
          21 Oct 2002 17:30:49 -0700
Received: from 152.1.139.117 by lw15fd.law15.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 22
          Oct 2002 00:30:48 GMT
X-Originating-IP: [152.1.139.117]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Oct 2002 00:30:49.0152 (UTC)
                       FILETIME=[45053400:01C27962]
Message-ID:  <F50AdA31pHy82G4nzBY0000a3e2@hotmail.com>
Date:         Mon, 21 Oct 2002 20:30:48 -0400
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Joel Gruver <jgruv@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its head)
Comments: cc: smdevine@unity.ncsu.edu, shuijin_hu@ncsu.edu
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731130
Status: U

Hello Jeff,

I do not doubt that increasing the community of beneficial microorganisms on
leaf surfaces will often improve plant performance.
Several years ago I fortuitously discovered an article in a forestry journal
(American Forests?) that discussed phyllosphere ecology in a very clear and
captivating way. I was teaching an agroecology class at the time and I gave
the article to my students as an assigned reading.

What I am skeptical about is the benefit of increasing microbial populations
in compost teas using sugar, molasses, nutrient solutions, or aeration...

As I wrote earlier (but perhaps obscured my meaning with a typo),
the great **majority** of soil microorganisms (>95%) are unculturable using
all known types of media (let alone something very simple like glucose). Why
does selective enhancement of the "greedy"/r selected species improve the
performance of a compost tea ?

As Dale implied with his question about applying cultures of known
biocontrol species, the # of bacteria or fungi applied per square inch of
crop leaf surfaces should be less important than the species composition of
compost teas. Your goal is to promote colonization of leaf surfaces with
persistent phyllosphere adapted micoroorganisms that have the desired
effects of disease suppression and plant growth promotion, right ??.

I want to know if people have found that compost teas work better after they
have been supplemented (with sugar, nutrients, oxygen...).

Joel

Joel Gruver
Dept of Soil Science
NC State University
jgruv@hotmail.com
(919) 515 4270

_________________________________________________________________
Internet access plans that fit your lifestyle -- join MSN.
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp

.

From - Mon Oct 21 23:39:23 2002
X-UIDL: 322731134
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A64C6948006C; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 23:30:20 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A646133E0212; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 23:30:14 -0400
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VFM8FDZS; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 23:30:00 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 10027 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 21 Oct 2002 23:30:12 -0400
Received: from 209.42.192.250 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 23:30:12 -0400
Received: from intrex.net [209.42.230.67] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
          (SMTPD32-5.05) id A6395560270; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 23:30:01 -0400
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1)
            Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <F66CybyF9ew0y8DJcnU0000aba2@hotmail.com>
            <005001c27943$119a74a0$9865fea9@jeffu9jv0ylyde>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Declude-Sender: lfl@intrex.net [209.42.230.67]
Message-ID:  <3DB4F240.6060700@intrex.net>
Date:         Mon, 21 Oct 2002 23:37:52 -0700
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@INTREX.NET>
Organization: http://market-farming.com  --  Venaura Farm
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its head)
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731134
Status: U

Jeff Lowenfels wrote:
> Joel, there is a whole list serve of folks who have had positive and
> demonstrable experiences. I, for one, have done lots of testing on my lawn
> and gardens, with control areas etc.  if you go to Yahoo groups you will
> find one on compost teas and can garner that information.
>
> Also, we grow fungi as well as bacteria.....

Is it true that the fungi are equally if not more important, ultimately,
that the bacteria cultured in compost tea. The latest SoilFoodWeb
newsletter implies that the sheer mass of fungi generated that further multiply
when in the soil is extremely important for soil health and soil improvement.
Is addition of molasses or the like vital for culturing the fungi or does it
benefit just the bacteria or both?




--
L.F.London
lfl@intrex.net
http://market-farming.com
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/pcwiki/index.php/london

.

From - Tue Oct 22 08:48:16 2002
X-UIDL: 322731155
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A49D74DC0140; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 08:29:20 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A499A6D50042; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 08:29:13 -0400
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VFM8FLWH; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 08:28:56 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 10256 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Tue, 22 Oct 2002 08:29:09 -0400
Received: from 216.136.130.22 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 08:29:08 -0400
Received: from [12.31.96.58] by web21203.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 22 Oct
          2002 05:28:55 PDT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID:  <20021022122855.20753.qmail@web21203.mail.yahoo.com>
Date:         Tue, 22 Oct 2002 05:28:55 -0700
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Dale Wilson <nosliwelad@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its head)
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <F50AdA31pHy82G4nzBY0000a3e2@hotmail.com>
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731155
Status: U

Hi Joel, jeff and Greg,

Joel wrote:
> I do not doubt that increasing the community of beneficial
> microorganisms on
> leaf surfaces will often improve plant performance...

Compost and manure are complex and diverse materials and they are
beneficial in many ways.  But people who use compost "tea" to control
diseases are probably getting benefit by altering leaf surface flora.

> What I am skeptical about is the benefit of increasing microbial
> populations in compost teas using sugar, molasses, nutrient
> solutions, or aeration...

Well, if you add sugar and aerate compost leak water, SOMETHING is
going to grow like wildfire, and it will probably be some sort of
bacteria or yeast.  Maybe positive responses from these "teas" are
non-specific reactions to large amounts of sub-pathogenic microbial
pressure on the plant.  Maybe there are antibiotics involved.  It is
probably a very hit-or-miss game.

> As I wrote earlier (but perhaps obscured my meaning with a typo),
> the great **majority** of soil microorganisms (>95%) are unculturable
> using all known types of media (let alone something very simple like
> glucose). Why does selective enhancement of the "greedy"/r selected
> species improve the performance of a compost tea ?

What is going on may be very simple.  Probably there is some abundant,
culturable yeast or bacteria in many composts, and this is what takes
off on when they add sugar and air.  There must be some literature on
the manipulation of leaf surface flora using biocontrol agents.  I
don't have time to search right now.

> As Dale implied with his question about applying cultures of known
> biocontrol species, the # of bacteria or fungi applied per square
> inch of crop leaf surfaces should be less important than the species
> composition of compost teas.

I don't know, maybe it is a mass-action kind of thing.  It would be
very valuable to take samples of successfully brewed compost tea and
perform dilution plating to see what is in there.  Someone must have
done this.

> I want to know if people have found that compost teas work better
> after they
> have been supplemented (with sugar, nutrients, oxygen...).

Yeah, It would be nice to get comments from someone with hands-on
experience with compost tea.

Dale

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/

.

From - Tue Oct 22 18:46:08 2002
X-UIDL: 322731164
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A43B8DF10050; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 17:33:47 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A43618220258; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 17:33:42 -0400
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNSD6LHJ; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 17:38:35 -0400
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Tue Oct 22 17:38:31 2002 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 11597 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Tue, 22 Oct 2002 17:33:35 -0400
Received: from 157.182.140.80 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 17:33:35 -0400
Received: from Kotcon.CAF.WVU.EDU (br504a1.caf.wvu.edu [157.182.39.119]) by
          scooter.wvu.edu (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g9MLWoV07741 for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 17:32:50 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jkotcon@gwpop.wvu.edu
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
X-MailScanner: Found to be clean
Message-ID:  <1.5.4.32.20021022213538.009a44a0@gwpop.wvu.edu>
Date:         Tue, 22 Oct 2002 17:35:38 -0400
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         James Kotcon <jkotcon@WVU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its head)
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731164
Status: U

        Soil microbiologists today typically are using estimates of 99 to
99.9 % of bacterial species in soil are not culturable "using standard
methods" (95 % is an underestimate).  Standard agar plate techniques appear
to give a biased and incomplete view of bacterial diversity in soil,
compared to the diversity observed with molecular DNA methods.  Species
diversity in composts is often observed to be much lower than in soil with
higher proportions of the species being culturable, probably due to the fact
that composts are rich nutrient media favoring bacteria that grow on rich
media, while soil is generally a carbon-poor medium, except for short
periods immediately after incorporation of composts, manure, crop residues,
or other organic matter sources.  Even though composts may have higher
numbers of total CELLS per gram, soils typically contain thousands of
SPECIES per gram, while composts typically contain only a few hundred
species per gram.
JBK


At 02:59 PM 10/22/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>Jeff Lowenfels wrote:
>> I am not sure Joel is right about 95% of soil bacteria not being
>> culturable......you mean you can't grow them in a petri dish? Where do you
>> get this statistic?
>>
>> I have my teas tested frequently and have seen the numbers. The biodiversity
>> is amazing and if that is only 5 % then so be it......though, again, I doubt
>> the percentage.... I would suggest Joel get in touch with
>
>Dr. Elaine Ingham
>Soil Foodweb, Incorporated
>info@soilfoodweb.com
>http://www.soilfoodweb.com/phpweb/
>
>or Dr.Eric Nelsonn (Cornell) to answer his questions.
>
>-
>See: GreenReleaf Novozymes
>http://www.bi-chem.com/green_releaf/professional/tech_info/tech_info_backgr
d.htm
> From their website:
>"Soil bacteria also manufacture a suite of trigger compounds that are
attractive
>to other soil microbes and when present in the rhizosphere this consortium of
>microbes can be extremely beneficial to plants. Plus, when beneficial bacteria
>colonize the root surface they can often help exclude pathogenic microbes from
>gaining access to the roots. Interestingly, when plants are grown under sterile
>conditions they often do not thrive as well as when the full microbial
community
>is present."
>
>--
>L.F.London
>lfl@intrex.net
>http://market-farming.com
>

*****
Jim Kotcon
304-293-3911 ext. 2230 (office)
304-293-2872 (fax)
304-594-3322 (home)
West Virginia University
Division of Plant and Soil Sciences
401 Brooks Hall, P. O. Box 6058
Morgantown, WV 26506

.

From - Tue Oct 22 19:24:13 2002
X-UIDL: 322731173
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A4C093D30050; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 18:44:16 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A4BABDFF0042; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 18:44:10 -0400
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNSD6MT5; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 18:48:39 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 11609 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Tue, 22 Oct 2002 18:43:45 -0400
Received: from 213.165.64.20 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 18:43:44 -0400
Received: (qmail 7999 invoked by uid 0); 22 Oct 2002 22:43:29 -0000
Received: from dup-200-64-189-33.prodigy.net.mx (HELO dir-gral) (200.64.189.33)
          by mail.gmx.net (mp007-rz3) with SMTP; 22 Oct 2002 22:43:29 -0000
X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.61) Personal
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
References: <1.5.4.32.20021022213538.009a44a0@gwpop.wvu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID:  <34935035062.20021022174259@gmx.net>
Date:         Tue, 22 Oct 2002 17:42:59 -0600
Reply-To:     Douglas Hinds <cedecor@gmx.net>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Douglas Hinds <cedecor@GMX.NET>
Organization: CeDeCoR, A. C.
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its head)
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.20021022213538.009a44a0@gwpop.wvu.edu>
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731173
Status: U

Hello James & other saneters following this interesting thread
(which I haven't had the time to to do very closely myself. I do
have a strong philosophical interest in accounting for this
phenomena however).

James stated:

JK> Soil microbiologists today typically are using estimates of 99
JK> to 99.9 % of bacterial species in soil are not culturable "using
JK> standard methods" (95 % is an underestimate). Standard agar
JK> plate techniques appear to give a biased and incomplete view of
JK> bacterial diversity in soil, compared to the diversity observed
JK> with molecular DNA methods.

If life is a contextual event, that makes sense. Take something out
of context and you lose it. It's like breaking a seed apart. If you
take it out of context, you not only disconnect it from it's source
of sustenance, you disconnect it from it's meaning for living.

JK> Species diversity in composts is often observed to be much lower
JK> than in soil with higher proportions of the species being
JK> culturable, probably due to the fact that composts are rich
JK> nutrient media favoring bacteria that grow on rich media, while
JK> soil is generally a carbon-poor medium, except for short periods
JK> immediately after incorporation of composts, manure, crop
JK> residues, or other organic matter sources.

JK> Even though composts may have higher numbers of total CELLS per
JK> gram, soils typically contain thousands of SPECIES per gram,
JK> while composts typically contain only a few hundred species per
JK> gram.

JK> JBK

For the sake of discussion, I will assume the above is true and
attempt to interpret it.

If human beings are shepherds and cultivators, stronger bonds are
established with the plants and animals associated with humans, by
choice on our end and by nature on theirs.

Cultivated crops consist of only those plants found in nature
that provide most for human survival or use. (Since GM crops are not
found in nature, those abominations would be discussed further here
at this time).

Agriculture recreates and extends select natural environments that
are suitable for plant growth.

Irrigated farming extends the conditions favoring growth beyond the
rainy season and the river & stream banks and lakefront shores.

Organic matter is also found in nature, just as a rotting fruit
feeds it's own seed in order help get it started.

Organic agriculture recreates and extends natural (and naturally
integrated) conditions much more precisely than conventional
agriculture does.

Sugars are not found in nature in an isolated form (honey may well
come closest, but the natural context for honey is not in the soil.
By the same token, molasses too is found in a contained context and
in any case, is derived from boiling the sap contained within
another organism which on decomposing naturally, yields a very
different composition.

In view of the above, the use of sugar and molasses in compost teas
is both too artificial and too out of context for organic
agriculture AND for successfully promoting the growth of the kind of
compatible and complementary soil microorganism populations that
Lawrence, Dale, Elaine Ingham and others refer to.

I suspect that the symbiotic and synergic interrelationships between
those microorganisms and the soil biosphere they jointly create is
much more significant than sheer (and possibly disconnected) numbers
of organisms as an indicator of soil fertility.

IOW, compatible and complementary relationships (compatible and
complementary with each other and with our own needs and
capabilities) are what count on this planet, rather diverse but
competing numbers of species.

The above may well contain a lesson for the internal working of
human society, as well.

Douglas

.

From - Tue Oct 22 15:47:22 2002
X-UIDL: 322731161
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A62A9938003C; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 15:25:30 -0400
Received: from nt-web [128.227.242.140] by smtp.intrex.net
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A625A20029C; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 15:25:25 -0400
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Tue Oct 22 14:56:46 2002 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 11032 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Tue, 22 Oct 2002 14:51:51 -0400
Received: from 209.42.192.250 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 14:51:50 -0400
Received: from intrex.net [209.42.230.67] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
          (SMTPD32-5.05) id AE361C570208; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 14:51:34 -0400
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1)
            Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <20021022122855.20753.qmail@web21203.mail.yahoo.com>
            <004f01c279e5$773fd960$ee903a42@jeffu9jv0ylyde>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Declude-Sender: lfl@intrex.net [209.42.230.67]
Message-ID:  <3DB5CA40.4090407@intrex.net>
Date:         Tue, 22 Oct 2002 14:59:28 -0700
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@INTREX.NET>
Organization: http://market-farming.com  --  Venaura Farm
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its head)
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.140]
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.140]
X-Note: Total weight is 4. HELOBOGUS
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731161
Status: U

Jeff Lowenfels wrote:
> I am not sure Joel is right about 95% of soil bacteria not being
> culturable......you mean you can't grow them in a petri dish? Where do you
> get this statistic?
>
> I have my teas tested frequently and have seen the numbers. The biodiversity
> is amazing and if that is only 5 % then so be it......though, again, I doubt
> the percentage.... I would suggest Joel get in touch with

Dr. Elaine Ingham
Soil Foodweb, Incorporated
info@soilfoodweb.com
http://www.soilfoodweb.com/phpweb/

or Dr.Eric Nelsonn (Cornell) to answer his questions.

-
See: GreenReleaf Novozymes
http://www.bi-chem.com/green_releaf/professional/tech_info/tech_info_backgrd.htm
 From their website:
"Soil bacteria also manufacture a suite of trigger compounds that are attractive
to other soil microbes and when present in the rhizosphere this consortium of
microbes can be extremely beneficial to plants. Plus, when beneficial bacteria
colonize the root surface they can often help exclude pathogenic microbes from
gaining access to the roots. Interestingly, when plants are grown under sterile
conditions they often do not thrive as well as when the full microbial community
is present."

--
L.F.London
lfl@intrex.net
http://market-farming.com

.

From - Tue Oct 22 19:56:41 2002
X-UIDL: 322731179
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AF06A6520034; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 19:28:06 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AF01F0A0254; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 19:28:01 -0400
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNSD6NMY; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 19:32:59 -0400
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Tue Oct 22 19:32:25 2002 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 11618 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Tue, 22 Oct 2002 19:27:29 -0400
Received: from 203.59.3.36 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 19:27:29 -0400
Received: (qmail 20987 invoked from network); 22 Oct 2002 23:22:33 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO dmflkwfouhswsa) (203.59.203.202) by
          mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 22 Oct 2002 23:22:35 -0000
References: <1.5.4.32.20021022213538.009a44a0@gwpop.wvu.edu> 
            <34935035062.20021022174259@gmx.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Message-ID:  <00c701c27a21$718e3610$8acb3bcb@dmflkwfouhswsa>
Date:         Wed, 23 Oct 2002 07:19:16 +0800
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         David Menne <menne@IINET.NET.AU>
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its head)
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731179
Status: U

I believe there is a great truth here, in that whatever "food" is provided
for a microbial brew should provide [apart from sufficient and balanced
elements to satisfy the microbial equivalents of the Laws of von Liebig and
Voisin - plus  healthful tonic components such as Vit C, Vit E, Vits B etc];
the NATURAL food suite they would normally be feeding off.

Maybe the compost used in any tea should include more than the odd
smattering of rotted root material.

Next task : see if any patterns exist between plant and root compositions
[obviously chlorophyll !]; and in their composted products. [I always
thought roots were fairly rich in the sugars banned by the regulations -
does this mean - because of their sugar contents, their use (eg waste beets
fed to brews) too might also face Official Banishment ?]


David Menne : http://www.plantsfood.com

"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we
created them" - Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

"Only the small secrets need to be protected. The big ones are kept secret
by public incredulity" - Marshall McLuhan (1911-1980)


>
> Sugars are not found in nature in an isolated form (honey may well
> come closest, but the natural context for honey is not in the soil.
> By the same token, molasses too is found in a contained context and
> in any case, is derived from boiling the sap contained within
> another organism which on decomposing naturally, yields a very
> different composition.
>
> In view of the above, the use of sugar and molasses in compost teas
> is both too artificial and too out of context for organic
> agriculture AND for successfully promoting the growth of the kind of
> compatible and complementary soil microorganism populations that
> Lawrence, Dale, Elaine Ingham and others refer to.
>
> I suspect that the symbiotic and synergic interrelationships between
> those microorganisms and the soil biosphere they jointly create is
> much more significant than sheer (and possibly disconnected) numbers
> of organisms as an indicator of soil fertility.
>

.

From - Tue Oct 22 19:56:42 2002
X-UIDL: 322731181
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A3B592950036; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 19:48:05 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A3AFB3C028C; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 19:47:59 -0400
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNSD6N8W; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 19:52:30 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 11621 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Tue, 22 Oct 2002 19:47:36 -0400
Received: from 213.165.64.20 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 19:47:35 -0400
Received: (qmail 11439 invoked by uid 0); 22 Oct 2002 23:47:20 -0000
Received: from dup-200-64-189-33.prodigy.net.mx (HELO dir-gral) (200.64.189.33)
          by mail.gmx.net (mp019-rz3) with SMTP; 22 Oct 2002 23:47:20 -0000
X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.61) Personal
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
References: <1.5.4.32.20021022213538.009a44a0@gwpop.wvu.edu>
            <34935035062.20021022174259@gmx.net>
            <00c701c27a21$718e3610$8acb3bcb@dmflkwfouhswsa>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID:  <122938864468.20021022184648@gmx.net>
Date:         Tue, 22 Oct 2002 18:46:48 -0600
Reply-To:     Douglas Hinds <cedecor@gmx.net>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Douglas Hinds <cedecor@GMX.NET>
Organization: CeDeCoR, A. C.
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its head)
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <00c701c27a21$718e3610$8acb3bcb@dmflkwfouhswsa>
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731181
Status: U

Hello David & other saneters following this thread,

You added to the great truth and ending by asked a good question:

DM> I believe there is a great truth here, in that whatever "food"
DM> is provided for a microbial brew should provide ... the NATURAL
DM> food suite they would normally be feeding off.

Or a little more concentrated (enriched) w/o altering the balance of
the envelope.

DM> Maybe the compost used in any tea should include more than the odd
DM> smattering of rotted root material.

The source of the raw materials being composted varies greatly from place to
place.

DM> Next task : see if any patterns exist between plant and root compositions
DM> [obviously chlorophyll !];

Roots don't need chlorophyll, leaves do.

DM> and in their composted products. [I always thought roots were
DM> fairly rich in the sugars banned by the regulations

The sugars contained in roots are in a balanced form in combination
with the plants living tissues, rather than the concentrated result
of an industrial process.

DM> - does this mean - because of their sugar contents, their use
DM> (eg waste beets fed to brews) too might also face Official
DM> Banishment ?]

Sugar cane waste is one of the principle sources of both bacterial
and vermicompost made in tropical and subtropical areas and AFAIK no
problems with organic certification have arisen.

The bacteria or earthworms feeding on the raw plant material
transform it into compost, which is not the same as adding sugar or
molasses to compost teas (which is the reverse - it's going
backwards in time, and adds the concentrated industrial product
rather than the original organic residues).

Douglas

--

.

From - Wed Oct 23 14:06:28 2002
X-UIDL: 322731246
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A3E3CD401CC; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 12:52:51 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A3E98400240; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 12:52:57 -0400
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNSD7L9M; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 12:57:28 -0400
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Wed Oct 23 12:52:13 2002 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 12985 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Wed, 23 Oct 2002 12:52:26 -0400
Received: from 213.165.64.20 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 12:52:25 -0400
Received: (qmail 6758 invoked by uid 0); 23 Oct 2002 16:52:07 -0000
Received: from dup-200-64-189-74.prodigy.net.mx (HELO dir-gral) (200.64.189.74)
          by mail.gmx.net (mp006-rz3) with SMTP; 23 Oct 2002 16:52:07 -0000
X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.61) Personal
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
References: <20021023142129.33950.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID:  <821000350046.20021023115134@gmx.net>
Date:         Wed, 23 Oct 2002 11:51:34 -0600
Reply-To:     Douglas Hinds <cedecor@gmx.net>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Douglas Hinds <cedecor@GMX.NET>
Organization: CeDeCoR, A. C.
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its head)
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <20021023142129.33950.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com>
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731246
Status: U

Hi Dale & other saneters following this interesting thread,

Dale responded to my saying:

>> If life is a contextual event, that makes sense. Take something out
>> of context and you lose it. It's like breaking a seed apart. If you
>> take it out of context,

Adding to that: A seed is an organism or the beginning of one. As
such, it's parts are integrated in relation to single goal - that of
being a plant. The function of each part converges with the rest so
that in the context of soil, nutrients, humidity & sunlight etc. the
plant will grow. Breaking a seed apart prevents it from performing
the function it was created for in the context mentioned above.

>> you not only disconnect it from it's source of sustenance, you
>> disconnect it from it's meaning for living.

DW> The essence of evolution is the taking of things out of context and
DW> creation of new contexts.  This is how agriculture evolved.

Your "taking of things out of context and creation of new contexts"
sounds a lot like my "extending the contextual envelope" analogy.
In order to determine which is a more accurate description of a
given situation, answering the following questions may be helpful:

To what extent is the new context an extension of the old, to what
extent is it different, and what is the significance inherent to or
implied by those similarities and differences?

DW> As a parallel, this is how harvester ants evolved. I am sure you
DW> see them all the time in your region, clipping leaves and
DW> carrying them down into their nest,

That is correct. They are highly destructive. They'll strip a tree
of every leaf, if you let them. I've depopulated entire colonies
however by bathing and dancing with (on) them. It takes them a
while to regenerate but it's a lot of work.

DW> where they inoculate them with a unique fungal monoculture to
DW> cultivate for food.

They frequently harvest a crop planted by someone else to create
their own. If we analyze that we see that the relationship they
sustain with the providing plant (i.e. a peach tree) is highly
unsustainable. In relation to our own efforts (i.e. planting the
peach tree for other ends) the leaf cutting ants are a pest, period.

DW> Both the ants and the fungus have mutually taken each other out
DW> of old contexts, and created a life-system, a new context.

Dale, I see your point. My point is that I don't identify or
sympathize with leaf cutting ants or their way of doing things. The
relationships sustained with those they deal with is conflictive to
an unnecessary and unwarranted degree - and that's why we kill them.
(That's the complementary action they provoke).

DW> The reason that human innovation is seen as unnatural is that
DW> deep down, people [some people - DH] view humans as outside
DW> nature. But humans really are part of nature.

Of course.

>> Cultivated crops consist of only those plants found in nature
>> that provide most for human survival or use. (Since GM crops are not
>> found in nature, those abominations would be discussed further here
>> at this time).

>> Agriculture recreates and extends select natural environments that
>> are suitable for plant growth.

DW> This is entirely analogous to what the compost-tea-brewers (and indeed
DW> compost-makers, beer-makers, bakers, etc.) are doing.  They are taking
DW> naturally occuring microbial processes and placing them in new
DW> "artifical" contexts suitable for the growth of a very small number of
DW> species.

We agree that a multiplicity of contexts are possible, but not all
are compatible. I suggested that adding sugar and molasses to
compost teas may not be compatible (appropriate) in relation to
the standards governing organic agriculture since last Monday.
I also suggest why.

Context and environment can be considered interchangeable terms here
and contexts can overlap. Looking at compost itself as en
environment (for microorganisms) compatible with other environments
(such as organic food production) I also suggested that the
environmental change resulting from the addition of sugar and
molasses to compost teas may not be compatible with the growth of
microorganisms that predominate in compost (as per the quote by
Elaine Ingham contained in the post I responded to), if the dominant
presence of those microorganisms is due to the capability of
forming symbiotic and synergetic relationship with each other and
the plant (crop) itself they possess.

IOW, it seemed to me that the addition of sugar and molasses to
compost teas may not be compatible with the GOALS of organic
agriculture (soil improvement, as well as crop production), since
NUMBERS of microorganism is less significant than QUALITY of
microorganisms, if microorganisms that engage in and are capable of
forming symbiotic and synergetic relationship with each other and
the plant (crop) itself are indeed what we want. (I sure do).

>> Sugars are not found in nature in an isolated form (honey may well
>> come closest, but the natural context for honey is not in the soil.
>> By the same token, molasses too is found in a contained context and
>> in any case, is derived from boiling the sap contained within
>> another organism which on decomposing naturally, yields a very
>> different composition.

DW> This is all a matter of scale.  All these things are found in nature,
DW> but at different concentrations and spatial scales.  Just as cropping
DW> systems provide a rich environment for the culture of a few off-beat
DW> plant species,

And often add to the presence of plant pests.

DW> microbial processing grows a few species of fungi or bacteria to
DW> accomplish certain goals (like making a drug, leavening bread,
DW> or controlling a plant disease.

Which is not to say that adding sugar &/or molasses to compost teas
will provide results that we could define as good. I suggest we
ground our terms in specific examples (i.e. leaf cutting ants or
peach trees etc.).

>> In view of the above, the use of sugar and molasses in compost teas
>> is both too artificial and too out of context for organic
>> agriculture AND for successfully promoting the growth of the kind of
>> compatible and complementary soil microorganism populations that
>> Lawrence, Dale, Elaine Ingham and others refer to.

DW> I think it is unproductive to be dogmatic about such things.

Dale, there's no dogma here. The only dogma is the need to define
goals and define the results obtains from determined practices and
try to identify or account for the cause, to define the principles
involved.

DW> People develop methods to get the job done (just like harvester
DW> ants).

Which are pests, by my criteria.

DW> Some of these compost-tea methods may be very useful.

Useful for what purpose? MY purpose here is to emphasize the need
for defining goals and determining whether those goals have been
fulfilled in the best possible way.

DW> Things that seem "unnatural", eventually are perceived as
DW> "natural" when your system has evolved to fill the niche. In
DW> other words, the merits and costs of some new technology have to
DW> be judged on a basis other than "naturalness" IMO. "Natural" is
DW> just too slippery a word.

I maintain that the "nature" of different ways of dealing with the
"nature" you refer to (a general term) can and should be defined, in
terms of the objective stated, results obtained and means employed.

>> I suspect that the symbiotic and synergic interrelationships between
>> those microorganisms and the soil biosphere they jointly create is
>> much more significant than sheer (and possibly disconnected) numbers
>> of organisms as an indicator of soil fertility.

DW> But we are really talking about the leaf surface of a particular crop
DW> for a short time, a small portion of time and space.  If a grower can
DW> control a devastating disease using a highly "artificial" compost tea,
DW> why not do it?  Unless the practice can be shown to be dangerous in
DW> some way.

Agreed. But this needs to be researched and defined. And that is one
of the areas in which you have specific capabilities. All I have
stated in this thread are postulations of principle. Now we need to
examine and apply them to specific applications. (I do have some in
mind that jive with what Lawrence and others posted, relating to
phyto-hormones and antibiotic production by beneficial bacteria and
fungus, among other soil microorganisms - I don't have time to dig
them out at the moment though. I will later).

>> IOW, compatible and complementary relationships (compatible and
>> complementary with each other and with our own needs and
>> capabilities) are what count on this planet, rather diverse but
>> competing numbers of species.

DW> Words like "compatible" and "complementary" are very relative and
DW> scale-sensitive.

They been defined in specific instances such as those described by
Elaine Ingham that Lawrence quoted. Please don't infer that I have
no specific instance in mind, just because I don't cite one. I'd
rather you asked for an example rather than claim I am generalizing.
The words themselves have an accepted meaning. Rather than reject
the use of them, we need to refer to specific situations in order
tot determine whether or not we agree regarding a given, specific
application of the terms.

DW> In the context of human evolution, your statement could be taken
DW> to negate all of agriculture, a recent and environmentally
DW> destructive innovation.

At this point in time, human beings are without-a-doubt the most
destructive pest the planet has ever known, and at this point in
time, the planet would be much better off if human beings were
removed from it. However, human beings are not without a still
unrealized potential (on a planetary scale) to do good, and many on
this list are probably doing just that to the extent they can at
present.

>> The above may well contain a lesson for the internal working of
>> human society, as well.

DW> Douglas, I really think we agree on a lot of underlying values.  I
DW> agree we need more complementarity and working together in human
DW> society.

Definitely. I see no conflict in our positions. On the contrary, we
all have much to gain by working with and learning from each other.

Douglas

BTW: by putting two hyphens and a space then hitting <enter> after
your signature, the yahoo.com propaganda won't appear on a reply to
your letter (like this):

--

.

From - Wed Oct 23 15:18:35 2002
X-UIDL: 322731265
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AC3D3D90036; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:36:45 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AC431A370272; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:36:51 -0400
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNSD7RFD; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:41:07 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 13068 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:36:11 -0400
Received: from 205.158.62.78 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:36:11 -0400
Received: (qmail 17454 invoked from network); 23 Oct 2002 18:35:57 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO jeffu9jv0ylyde)
          (jeff:gardener.com?iname.com@209.112.209.169) by
          205-158-62-78.outblaze.com with SMTP; 23 Oct 2002 18:35:57 -0000
References: <20021023142129.33950.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com> 
            <821000350046.20021023115134@gmx.net>
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106
Message-ID:  <003d01c27ac3$3a4691f0$9865fea9@jeffu9jv0ylyde>
Date:         Wed, 23 Oct 2002 10:37:22 -0800
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Jeff Lowenfels <jeff@GARDENER.COM>
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its head)
Comments: To: Douglas Hinds <cedecor@gmx.net>
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731265
Status: U

It is great how this thing has ranged, but the issue is whether using sugars
to increase bacterial biomass in compost teas is inconsistent with Organic
methods. Adding beneficial bacteria and fungi, protozoa and in some cases
nematodes to the soil surely has to be considered within the scope as
Organic.    It is exactly analogous to putting mulch down or compost to a
lesser degree.

The only issue is does it cause E. coli to grow...... a conclusion the NOSB
reached as a result of what many of us believe were flawed studies based on
personal agendas.... there were supposed two, not reported and not peer
reviewed.

Again, adding fungi, bacteria and protozoa is clearly organic. It is what we
all do when we mulch and apply compost. THE  ISSUE IS E COLI AND BAD
SCIENCE. AND NOT IF SUGARS ARE FOUND IN NATURE.....

     Jeff L

.

From - Wed Oct 23 21:18:58 2002
X-UIDL: 322731271
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A6EA1FA501DA; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 16:30:34 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A6E4F78028C; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 16:30:28 -0400
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNSD7X24; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 16:29:27 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 13180 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Wed, 23 Oct 2002 16:29:40 -0400
Received: from 207.69.200.246 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 16:29:39 -0400
Received: from sdn-ap-016watacop0264.dialsprint.net ([63.191.225.10]
          helo=decou.mindspring.com) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net with esmtp
          (Exim 3.33 #1) id 184S84-0007bq-00 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Wed, 23 Oct 2002 16:29:25 -0400
X-Sender: ddecou@pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
References: <20021023142129.33950.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com>
            <821000350046.20021023115134@gmx.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Message-ID:  <5.1.0.14.0.20021023132236.00a6fa60@pop.mindspring.com>
Date:         Wed, 23 Oct 2002 13:31:54 -0700
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Dave DeCou <ddecou@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its head)
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <003d01c27ac3$3a4691f0$9865fea9@jeffu9jv0ylyde>
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731271
Status: U

At 11:37 AM 10/23/02, you wrote:
>It is great how this thing has ranged, but the issue is whether using sugars
>to increase bacterial biomass in compost teas is inconsistent with Organic
>methods. Adding beneficial bacteria and fungi, protozoa and in some cases
>nematodes to the soil surely has to be considered within the scope as
>Organic.    It is exactly analogous to putting mulch down or compost to a
>lesser degree.
>
>The only issue is does it cause E. coli to grow...... a conclusion the NOSB
>reached as a result of what many of us believe were flawed studies based on
>personal agendas.... there were supposed two, not reported and not peer
>reviewed.

Although I cannot deal with the details of the decisions made here I
believe that it is important to recognize that the NOSB (National Organic
Standards Board) (an appointed Board coming from out of the industry) makes
recommendations to the NOP (National Organic Program) (a portion of the
AMS, in the USDA). The NOSB does not make decisions for the NOP, unless it
is a straightforward "Materials" issue, this is the only realm which the
NOSB has a large degree of control. By law all materials on the "National
Lists" must be placed there initially by the NOSB, after that the USDA can
remove something but it can not add anything.
I believe that the NOP has made these decisions about compost and compost
teas. Since the "Final Rule" had to be passed by the Office of Management
and Budget, I suspect that some political horse trading went down at the
organic farmers' expense. Do not expect logic to always prevail in these
things, no matter how right you might be.


>Again, adding fungi, bacteria and protozoa is clearly organic. It is what we
>all do when we mulch and apply compost. THE  ISSUE IS E COLI AND BAD
>SCIENCE. AND NOT IF SUGARS ARE FOUND IN NATURE.....
>
>      Jeff L

Yours,
Dave DeCou

.

From - Wed Oct 23 21:19:07 2002
X-UIDL: 322731274
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A28C9DB6003E; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 17:20:12 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A27F245F027A; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 17:19:59 -0400
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNSD7YZL; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 17:19:25 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 13257 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Wed, 23 Oct 2002 17:19:38 -0400
Received: from 213.165.64.20 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 17:19:38 -0400
Received: (qmail 21233 invoked by uid 0); 23 Oct 2002 21:19:22 -0000
Received: from dup-200-64-189-74.prodigy.net.mx (HELO dir-gral) (200.64.189.74)
          by mail.gmx.net (mp004-rz3) with SMTP; 23 Oct 2002 21:19:22 -0000
X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.61) Personal
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
References: <20021023142129.33950.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com>
            <821000350046.20021023115134@gmx.net>
            <003d01c27ac3$3a4691f0$9865fea9@jeffu9jv0ylyde>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID:  <421016386984.20021023161851@gmx.net>
Date:         Wed, 23 Oct 2002 16:18:51 -0600
Reply-To:     Douglas Hinds <cedecor@gmx.net>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Douglas Hinds <cedecor@GMX.NET>
Organization: CeDeCoR, A. C.
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its head)
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <003d01c27ac3$3a4691f0$9865fea9@jeffu9jv0ylyde>
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731274
Status: U

Hello Jeff & other saneters following this thread,

In response to Jeff Lowenfels at gardener.com's message sent
Wednesday, October 23, 2002:

JL> It is great how this thing has ranged, but the issue is whether
JL> using sugars to increase bacterial biomass in compost teas is
JL> inconsistent with Organic methods.

It's also about why adding sugar and / or molasses is or isn't
inconsistent with the USDA's organic regulatory framework.

JL> Adding beneficial bacteria and fungi, protozoa and in some cases
JL> nematodes to the soil surely has to be considered within the
JL> scope as Organic.

As I understand it, the issue is not about adding beneficial
bacteria and fungi, protozoa and in some cases nematodes to the
soil. The the issue is about adding adding sugar and / or molasses
to compost teas.

JL> It is exactly analogous to putting mulch down or compost to a
JL> lesser degree.

Obviously, some disagree.

JL> The only issue is does it cause E. coli to grow...... a
JL> conclusion the NOSB reached as a result of what many of us
JL> believe were flawed studies based on personal agendas.... there
JL> were supposed two, not reported and not peer reviewed.

You have no agenda?

JL> Again, adding fungi, bacteria and protozoa is clearly organic.
JL> It is what we all do when we mulch and apply compost. THE ISSUE
JL> IS E COLI AND BAD SCIENCE. AND NOT IF SUGARS ARE FOUND IN
JL> NATURE.....

Thank you for providing your opinion of what THE issue is or isn't.
It will certainly be taken into account.

Douglas

.

From - Wed Oct 23 21:19:07 2002
X-UIDL: 322731274
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A28C9DB6003E; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 17:20:12 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A27F245F027A; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 17:19:59 -0400
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNSD7YZL; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 17:19:25 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 13257 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Wed, 23 Oct 2002 17:19:38 -0400
Received: from 213.165.64.20 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 17:19:38 -0400
Received: (qmail 21233 invoked by uid 0); 23 Oct 2002 21:19:22 -0000
Received: from dup-200-64-189-74.prodigy.net.mx (HELO dir-gral) (200.64.189.74)
          by mail.gmx.net (mp004-rz3) with SMTP; 23 Oct 2002 21:19:22 -0000
X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.61) Personal
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
References: <20021023142129.33950.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com>
            <821000350046.20021023115134@gmx.net>
            <003d01c27ac3$3a4691f0$9865fea9@jeffu9jv0ylyde>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID:  <421016386984.20021023161851@gmx.net>
Date:         Wed, 23 Oct 2002 16:18:51 -0600
Reply-To:     Douglas Hinds <cedecor@gmx.net>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Douglas Hinds <cedecor@GMX.NET>
Organization: CeDeCoR, A. C.
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its head)
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <003d01c27ac3$3a4691f0$9865fea9@jeffu9jv0ylyde>
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731274
Status: U

Hello Jeff & other saneters following this thread,

In response to Jeff Lowenfels at gardener.com's message sent
Wednesday, October 23, 2002:

JL> It is great how this thing has ranged, but the issue is whether
JL> using sugars to increase bacterial biomass in compost teas is
JL> inconsistent with Organic methods.

It's also about why adding sugar and / or molasses is or isn't
inconsistent with the USDA's organic regulatory framework.

JL> Adding beneficial bacteria and fungi, protozoa and in some cases
JL> nematodes to the soil surely has to be considered within the
JL> scope as Organic.

As I understand it, the issue is not about adding beneficial
bacteria and fungi, protozoa and in some cases nematodes to the
soil. The the issue is about adding adding sugar and / or molasses
to compost teas.

JL> It is exactly analogous to putting mulch down or compost to a
JL> lesser degree.

Obviously, some disagree.

JL> The only issue is does it cause E. coli to grow...... a
JL> conclusion the NOSB reached as a result of what many of us
JL> believe were flawed studies based on personal agendas.... there
JL> were supposed two, not reported and not peer reviewed.

You have no agenda?

JL> Again, adding fungi, bacteria and protozoa is clearly organic.
JL> It is what we all do when we mulch and apply compost. THE ISSUE
JL> IS E COLI AND BAD SCIENCE. AND NOT IF SUGARS ARE FOUND IN
JL> NATURE.....

Thank you for providing your opinion of what THE issue is or isn't.
It will certainly be taken into account.

Douglas

.

From - Wed Oct 23 12:58:13 2002
X-UIDL: 322731224
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A0D2D0DE0038; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 10:23:14 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A0D215C70234; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 10:23:14 -0400
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNSD7AYS; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 10:26:40 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 12295 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Wed, 23 Oct 2002 10:21:44 -0400
Received: from 216.136.175.253 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f)
          with TCP; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 10:21:43 -0400
Received: from [12.31.96.58] by web21210.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 23 Oct
          2002 07:21:29 PDT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID:  <20021023142129.33950.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com>
Date:         Wed, 23 Oct 2002 07:21:29 -0700
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Dale Wilson <nosliwelad@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its head)
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <34935035062.20021022174259@gmx.net>
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731224
Status: U

Hi Douglas,

James wrote:
> JK> Soil microbiologists today typically are using estimates of 99
> JK> to 99.9 % of bacterial species in soil are not culturable "using
> JK> standard methods" (95 % is an underestimate)....

Douglas wrote:
> If life is a contextual event, that makes sense. Take something out
> of context and you lose it. It's like breaking a seed apart. If you
> take it out of context, you not only disconnect it from it's source
> of sustenance, you disconnect it from it's meaning for living.

The essence of evolution is the taking of things out of context and
creation of new contexts.  This is how agriculture evolved.  As a
parallel, this is how harvester ants evolved.  I am sure you see them
all the time in your region, clipping leaves and carrying them down
into their nest, where they inoculate them with a unique fungal
monoculture to cultivate for food.  Both the ants and the fungus have
mutually taken each other out of old contexts, and created a
life-system, a new context.

The reason that human innovation is seen as unnatural is that deep
down, people view humans as outside nature.  But humans really are part
of nature.

> Cultivated crops consist of only those plants found in nature
> that provide most for human survival or use. (Since GM crops are not
> found in nature, those abominations would be discussed further here
> at this time).

> Agriculture recreates and extends select natural environments that
> are suitable for plant growth.

This is entirely analogous to what the compost-tea-brewers (and indeed
compost-makers, beer-makers, bakers, etc.) are doing.  They are taking
naturally occuring microbial processes and placing them in new
"artifical" contexts suitable for the growth of a very small number of
species.

> Sugars are not found in nature in an isolated form (honey may well
> come closest, but the natural context for honey is not in the soil.
> By the same token, molasses too is found in a contained context and
> in any case, is derived from boiling the sap contained within
> another organism which on decomposing naturally, yields a very
> different composition.

This is all a matter of scale.  All these things are found in nature,
but at different concentrations and spatial scales.  Just as cropping
systems provide a rich environment for the culture of a few off-beat
plant species, microbial processing grows a few species of fungi or
bacteria to accomplish certain goals (like making a drug, leavening
bread, or controlling a plant disease.

> In view of the above, the use of sugar and molasses in compost teas
> is both too artificial and too out of context for organic
> agriculture AND for successfully promoting the growth of the kind of
> compatible and complementary soil microorganism populations that
> Lawrence, Dale, Elaine Ingham and others refer to.

I think it is unproductive to be dogmatic about such things.  People
develop methods to get the job done (just like harvester ants).  Some
of these compost-tea methods may be very useful.  Things that seem
"unnatural", eventually are perceived as "natural" when your system has
evolved to fill the niche.  In other words, the merits and costs of
some new technology have to be judged on a basis other than
"naturalness" IMO.  "Natural" is just too slippery a word.

> I suspect that the symbiotic and synergic interrelationships between
> those microorganisms and the soil biosphere they jointly create is
> much more significant than sheer (and possibly disconnected) numbers
> of organisms as an indicator of soil fertility.

But we are really talking about the leaf surface of a particular crop
for a short time, a small portion of time and space.  If a grower can
control a devastating disease using a highly "artificial" compost tea,
why not do it?  Unless the practice can be shown to be dangerous in
some way.

> IOW, compatible and complementary relationships (compatible and
> complementary with each other and with our own needs and
> capabilities) are what count on this planet, rather diverse but
> competing numbers of species.

Words like "compatible" and "complementary" are very relative and
scale-sensitive.  In the context of human evolution, your statement
could be taken to negate all of agriculture, a recent and
environmentally destructive innovation.

> The above may well contain a lesson for the internal working of
> human society, as well.

Douglas, I really think we agree on a lot of underlying values.  I
agree we need more complementarity and working together in human
society.

Dale


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/

.

From - Tue Oct 22 21:58:50 2002
X-UIDL: 322731194
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A0598EBF0038; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:50:17 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A04FC3CF0042; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:50:10 -0400
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNSD6PYL; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:54:09 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 11636 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:49:13 -0400
Received: from 209.42.192.250 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:49:13 -0400
Received: from intrex.net [209.42.230.67] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
          (SMTPD32-5.05) id A00CC3C60042; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:49:00 -0400
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1)
            Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <1.5.4.32.20021022213538.009a44a0@gwpop.wvu.edu>           
            <34935035062.20021022174259@gmx.net>           
            <00c701c27a21$718e3610$8acb3bcb@dmflkwfouhswsa>
            <122938864468.20021022184648@gmx.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID:  <3DB62C14.1090009@intrex.net>
Date:         Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:56:52 -0700
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@INTREX.NET>
Organization: http://market-farming.com  --  Venaura Farm
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its head)
Comments: To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org,
          organic-gardening@lists.ibiblio.org, marketfarming@lists.ibiblio.org
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731194
Status: U

[exerpted from the SFI, Inc., Soil Foodweb Newsletter, August 2002
archived at:
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/pcwiki/pcwikiufu/August2002Ezine.txt]
<><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Dr. Elaine Ingham
Soil Foodweb, Incorporated
info@soilfoodweb.com
http://www.soilfoodweb.com/phpweb/
AUGUST 2002 EZINE
<><><><><><><><><><><><><>
What is the Soil Foodweb?

"What is soil? · Bedrock weathered into parent material, or the sand, silt and
clay fractions. These fractions
hold the minerals, typically measured as CEC, or cation-exchange capacity.  The
minerals held in the sand,
silt and clay are NOT plant available and  must be processed by bacteria and
fungi, protozoa, nematodes or
microarthropods to become plant available. ·    Organic matter, which is food to
feed the organisms. ·
Bacteria, fungi, protozoa, nematodes, microarthropods. ·        Soil aggregates
are built by the bacteria,
fungi, protozoa, nematodes and microarthropods using organic matter and the
sand, silt, clay.

The least productive soils in the world are those with the least amount of
organic matter and the least
complex food webs, which mean the fewest numbers and diversity of soil
organisms.  The least productive soils
will be nearly 100% bacterial.  The fungal component increases directly as
system productivity increases.

The most productive soils are those with the greatest amount of organic matter
used by BENEFICIAL bacteria,
fungi, protozoa, nematodes and microarthropods to build soil structure.  The
most productive soils in the
world are 100 to 1000 times more fungal than bacterial.  There is more fungal
biomass present in an old
growth forest than there is biomass in trees!  The most productive soils have
more bacteria than less
productive soils, but the fungi far outweigh bacteria in the most productive
systems.

What is the soil foodweb? The soil foodweb is the set of bacteria, fungi,
protozoa, nematodes,
microarthopods, earthworms, and other critters in soil, which use the litter
material dropped to the soil by
the plants and the roots and the root exudates released by the plants.

The exact composition of the foodweb changes at each stage of succession.  You
need to know what your plants
require in terms of the ratio of fungi to bacteria in soil, protozoa and
nematodes, microarthropods, in order
to set up nutrient cycling and nutrient availability correct for the plant.

The benefits of having a healthy soil foodweb are: ·    Retention of nutrients
in the soil instead of
leaching (stop using fertilizers) ·     Prevention of erosion (soil aggregation
keeps things tied down,
slopes don’t slide) ·   Disease suppression and prevention (stop using
pesticides) ·    Decompose toxic
materials in your soil ·        Increase plant growth by having the proper plant
growth hormones made by the
biology in the soil ·   Build soil structure (reduce watering by 50% over the
course of 1 to 2 years,
increase water infiltration into the soil and reduce erosion because water moves
the soil instead of running
over the surface)

Compost is an excellent way to replace the life in your soil, but applying solid
material to large areas, or
transporting solids long distances from a source of GOOD aerobic compost can be
expensive.  Compost tea
requires very little compost (15 - 20 pounds for make 500 gallons of tea in 24
hours) to make large amounts
of tea, and since the organisms grow (yes, fungi grow in the tea, if you make
conditions right).   Fungi are
strict aerobes, and so if tea becomes anaerobic at all, fungi will be attacked
and killed by the anaerobic
bacteria.

What is the foliar foodweb? The foliar foodweb is the set of organisms, similar
to the soil foodweb, on the
foliage of your plant.  The plant leaf, blossoms, stems, etc. release exudates,
just like the roots, to feed
these organisms and keep a protective layer around the plant so disease can’t
attack, and nutrients will be
cycled correctly for the plant.

Improving the activity of the biology on leaf surfaces increases the carbon
dioxide in the leaf surface
layer, which increases the length of time the plant stomates are open.  This
increases the nutrient uptake
that can occur.  Of course, in drought conditions, this doesn’t happen.

Compost tea replaces these organisms in the soil and on the foliage.  Active
organisms are required in tea so
they will stick to leaf, branch, blossom and bark surfaces.

What is Compost Tea? A water extract of aerobic compost (can be thermal, vermi-
or static produced) that
contains the soluble nutrients, the bacteria, fungi, protozoa, and nematodes
which were in the compost.

All compost teas should be aerobic when applied or you run the risk of killing
the plant parts to which the
tea is applied.  Anaerobic tea or compost will contain alcohol, phenols, organic
acids, and proteins that are
very toxic to plant tissue.

It is necessary to have the ENTIRE foodweb to gain ALL the potential benefits of
compost tea.

Bacteria in tea: ·      Compete with and inhibit a few disease-causing organisms
·      Cover surfaces so
some of the bad guys can’t find food, can’t infect the plant surfaces, and
uptake of micronutrients is
enhanced ·      Certain bacterial species are especially desirable in certain
conditions because they
decompose pesticides, sequester heavy metals, help fungi remove thatch, improve
mycorrhizal colonization,
repel insects. ·        Certain bacterial species produce materials that kill
specific species of root-
feeding nematodes ·     Retain nutrients in their biomass ·     Improve soil
structure by building micro-
aggregates

Fungi in tea: · Compete with and inhibit most fungal disease-causing organisms ·
        Cover surfaces so
most of the bad guys can’t find food, can’t infect the plant surfaces, and
uptake of micronutrients is
enhanced ·      Certain fungal species are especially desirable since they
attack maggots, aphids, plant-
sucking insects, caterpillars, potato beetle, mosquito larvae, etc. ·   Retain
nutrients in their biomass ·
Improve soil structure by building macro-aggregates

Protozoa in tea: ·      Consume bacteria and some fungi ·       Indicate
anaerobic conditions when ciliate
numbers are high ·      Release nitrogen, phosphorus, sulfur and other nutrients
in plant-available forms

Nematodes in tea: ·     Consume bacteria, fungi, protozoa and other nematodes. ·
        Certain species of
nematodes are especially desirable, since they carry bacteria that attack wire
worm, root-grubs, maggots,
cranefly larvae, weevil larvae. ·       Other nematodes specifically prefer to
consume root-feeding nematodes"

.

From - Thu Oct 24 19:28:49 2002
X-UIDL: 322731339
X-Mozilla-Status: 1011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AF375EC60066; Thu, 24 Oct 2002 19:16:07 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AF321BE90278; Thu, 24 Oct 2002 19:16:02 -0400
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNSD9JQP; Thu, 24 Oct 2002 19:15:29 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 14758 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Thu, 24 Oct 2002 19:15:41 -0400
Received: from 152.163.225.98 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Thu, 24 Oct 2002 19:05:41 -0400
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-r02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id
          d.15e.162a6691 (30950) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Thu, 24 Oct
          2002 19:05:21 -0400 (EDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="part1_15e.162a6691.2ae9d6b0_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows AU sub 10503
Message-ID:  <15e.162a6691.2ae9d6b0@aol.com>
Date:         Thu, 24 Oct 2002 19:05:20 EDT
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Compost Tea
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731339
Status: U

--part1_15e.162a6691.2ae9d6b0_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

There have been questions about the National Organic Program regs on compost
tea, so let me offer some perspective.

The National Organics Standard Board appointed the Compost Task Force to
write the regs on compost.  The task force was also given the task of writing
the compost tea regulations.

Apparently, the Compost Task Force chairperson, Eric Sideman, called two
people, Wil Brinton, and Pat Milner, and on the basis of their opinions,
wrote the regs on compost tea.  Initially, the recommendation said that
sugar, molasses, barley malt and soluble carbon materials could not be used
in compost tea, because E. coli would grow if these materials were in the
tea.

Why was this reg put together?  Where did that come from?  Is it meaningful?


First of all, who are Wil Brinton and Pat Milner?  Wil had given up on 3-week
anaerobic compost teas  because he could never get rid of the E. coli.  Pat
Milner has never made compost tea, that I am aware, but had funded two
studies on compost tea.  The studies were performed at the USDA lab in
Albany, CA by a student of Dr. Subbarao's,  whose background is in the
pharmaceutical industry, and the second study was done by BBC Labs, run by
Ms. Vicki Bess, who has a Master's degree in microbiology.  Neither has
experience with 24-hour compost tea.

Dr. Subbarao's student, Brian Duffy, took E. coli-containing organic matter
(compost can't have E. coli under the USDA NOP regs, so it wasn't finished
compost.  And according to the source of the "pre-compost material", it
wasn't finished compost).  The E. coli-containing material was placed in
flasks, the flasks sealed and incubated for 24 hours.  E. coli was detected
in the material they sprayed on plants the following days.

This study has nothing to do with compost tea.  No compost tea maker is
sealed shut.  No one makes tea that way.  There is absolutely no evidence
here that aerobic compost tea could cause a problem.  This was a study that
was a waste of tax-payers' money.

BBC Labs took the same E. coli containing material, put it in a Growing
Solutions machine that always goes anaerobic in the basket during the tea
making process, added sugars, molasses, and barley malt, and found E. coli
growing in the 24 hour brew.

First, the "compost" contained E. coli.  Second, this particular tea machine
always goes anaerobic in the basket, and thus sets the stage for the growth
of E. coli, because the E. coli can out-compete the aerobic, beneficial
organisms when oxygen is low.  Third, the addition of sugar, molasses, barley
malt probably got the bacteria growing so rapidly that they used up oxygen
which helped the E. coli out-compete other organisms.

The paper published by BBC Labs in Biocycle (not a peer-reviewed journal) had
data on temperature and oxygen.  The temperatures cited ranged from 21 to 27
C.  The oxygen concentrations reported by Ms. Bess were between 10.1 to 10.9
mg oxygen per liter.

It is NOT POSSIBLE to have these levels of oxygen in water at the
temperatures cited.  Consider too that the elevation of Tempe, Arizona means
the oxygen concentration is even more impossible.  Check the maximum
concentration of oxygen in water on the US Geological Survey website.   These
concentrations are NOT POSSIBLE at these temperatures and elevations.  Unless
the air was pressurized, and there is no mention of that in the paper.  Water
holds less oxygen as temperature, or elevation, increase.

I contend that Ms. Bess did not in fact measure oxygen in the tea brew that
BBC Labs reported on.  The oxygen data were probably from work done by the
manufacturer, in Oregon, in the winter, at basically sea level.  The oxygen
data fit Oregon winter conditions.

There are no data to support Bess' contention that the tea stayed aerobic
through the whole brew cycle.  But there's no way to know, actually, because
they could not have measured the oxygen on the tea run where E. coli
occurred.

Thus, the "data" on which the Compost Task Force based their recommendation
were flawed.  With or without sugar, molasses or soluble carbon materials,
there was no evidence that E. coli would occur in tea.  All our data indicate
that as long as tea is kept aerobic and numbers of bacteria and fungi are
high and actively growing, no E. coli will be detected, or only at very low
levels.  All tea machines that get good fungal growth must remain aerobic.

I have been told that Vicki Bess says that the Growing Solutions tea maker
"super-saturates" the water with oxygen.  If that was true, then E. coli
would not have been detected, because E.coli cannot withstand highly
oxidizing conditions.   In fact, no one I know who owns the Growing Solutions
tea maker has obtained the high oxygen concentrations that the manufacturer
shows on the web site.

There's a serious discrepancy here.  Until someone else can repeat the same
results, i.e., show the tea maker stayed aerobic through the tea brew, and E.
coli was still in high numbers at the end of the brew, this study has to be
viewed as not scientifically sound.

Ms .Bess says that she has data showing that E. coli grows in aerobic
conditions.  E. coli can grow in aerobic conditions in the LAB, where we grow
the organism in very specific conditions that allow E. coli to grow in
aerobic conditions.  If there are a reasonable number of aerobic organisms
present, E. coli will be out-competed for food and space.  Protozoa in the
tea will consume E. coli.  In aerobic conditions, with high numbers of
competitors, predators and inhibitory compounds produced, E. coli does not
survive.

If E. coli did grow in aerated conditions found in sewage treatment plants,
E. coli would be everywhere, on everything.  But it is not, so clearly,
aerobic conditions, with lots of competitive, inhibitory and consuming
organisms present, will take out the E. coli.

Why do we get concerned about E. coli?  Because if E. coli is present, it
means there is contamination by fecal material where sooner or later there
will be a human pathogen present, and then we have disease.  So, E. coli is
an indicator of a problem, not something to go nuts about.  There's a
problem, work to fix it.

Pathogenic E. coli is not likely to occur if healthy animals are making the
manure.  It is much more reasonable to make a regulation about the kind of
manure that can be used, that testing of the compost has to be done to
document no E. coli, or that the tea brew has to stay fully aerobic so E.
coli is taken out than say all compost tea is dangerous.

Do we have data showing that E. coli does not survive in aerobic conditions?
Yes.  We submitted that data to several people who were at the NOSB meeting.
Did they present that data?  Not that I'm aware.

A week before the NOSB meeting, Wil Brinton sent an e-mail to the
compost_tea@yahoogroups.com list serve.  He basically told us about the deal
he had tried to make to keep compost tea in the NOP rules.  The ruling about
sugars came from him, apparently.  If that rule had been adopted, we would
not have been able to put compost in the compost tea, because compost
contains soluble carbon materials.

So, it was a non-choice.  That poorly written, not-supported-by-the-data
recommendation had to be removed.  But what was it replaced by?

Wil Brinton apparently decided that compost and worm compost tea cannot be
used on foodstuffs because of the possible danger that E. coli may be
present.  But there is no evidence to say there is a danger with properly
made compost tea.  All they had to put in a regulation was that compost tea
made from compost without E. coli present in the compost was acceptable.  If
made with E. coli-containing materials, the tea had to be kept aerated, and
have plenty of competing bacteria, fungi and protozoa.  We have documented
the reduction in E. coli, and thus in any human pathogen, in properly made
compost tea.

For the NOSB to accept a recommendation based on incorrect studies, studies
to peer-reviewed, not published in any scientifically peer-reviewed journal,
using only one poorly designed tea machine, or sealed glass flasks, is just
unbelievable.   The data on sugars causing E. coli to grow in aerated tea is
silly.  The data in the paper clearly show that the oxygen data are not
correct.  It is very likely that the tea did not stay aerobic.

We have repeated a number of studies showing that E. coli does not survive in
aerated tea with adequate competitive life.   Starting with "composted"
manure with an average number of 44,000 E. coli per gram of manure, the E.
coli present at the end of an incubation with molasses and kelp in the brew,
was 2.7 E. coli per ml of tea.

This is less than E. coli levels allowed in irrigation water, and irrigation
can be done up to the time you pick your crop.  Why is organic agriculture
being held to a higher standard than conventional crops?

The development process for National Organic Program regulations has been
poor.   The people appointed to write the recommendations did not do their
jobs in a number of cases.  A conversation with two people who don't have
expertise on 24 hour compost tea wrote the regulations?  The Compost Task
Force should have researched the conditions that allow E. coli to grow, and
should have known that anaerobic, or reduced oxygen conditions, are required
for E. coli to grow and survive.  Aeration result in the death of E. coli.
High oxygen concentrations kill E. coli.  Talk to sewage treatment people.

We were almost saddled with a really stupid regulation about no sugar in tea.
 Then instead of doing their job once the first objection to the lack of
science forced them to rescind the recommendation, they wrote a regulation
that compost tea can't be used because of the fear of E. coli.

I can put manure in coffee makers, and make a brown liquid that looks like
coffee.  Is anyone suggesting that coffee makers should be dis-allowed
because someone could be stupid and put the wrong stuff in a coffee maker?

Of course not.  The regulations should be written to state the conditions
that allow safe compost tea to be made.  Aerobic through the whole brew
cycle.  Lots of good aerobic bacteria, fungi and protozoa growing to compete
with, inhibit and consume the E. coli.
That gets rid of the E. coli and human pathogens.

If there is no E. coli in the starting materials, then why say there's a
danger of E. coli.  At least compost tea made with non-manure materials
should have been allowed.

But no, no tea at all can be used.

Anyone else feel like there's a hidden agenda here?

Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
Director of Research, Soil Foodweb New York
President, Soil Foodweb Institute, Lismore, Australia
Director of Quality Assurance, Soil Foodweb Europe, The Netherlands

--part1_15e.162a6691.2ae9d6b0_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=4 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">There have been questions about the National Organic Program regs on compost tea, so let me offer some perspective.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
The National Organics Standard Board appointed the Compost Task Force to write the regs on compost.&nbsp; The task force was also given the task of writing the compost tea regulations.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Apparently, the Compost Task Force chairperson, Eric Sideman, called two people, Wil Brinton, and Pat Milner, and on the basis of their opinions, wrote the regs on compost tea.&nbsp; Initially, the recommendation said that sugar, molasses, barley malt and soluble carbon materials could not be used in compost tea, because E. coli would grow if these materials were in the tea. <BR>
<BR>
Why was this reg put together?&nbsp; Where did that come from?&nbsp; Is it meaningful?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
First of all, who are Wil Brinton and Pat Milner?&nbsp; Wil had given up on 3-week anaerobic compost teas&nbsp; because he could never get rid of the E. coli.&nbsp; Pat Milner has never made compost tea, that I am aware, but had funded two studies on compost tea.&nbsp; The studies were performed at the USDA lab in Albany, CA by a student of Dr. Subbarao's,&nbsp; whose background is in the pharmaceutical industry, and the second study was done by BBC Labs, run by Ms. Vicki Bess, who has a Master's degree in microbiology.&nbsp; Neither has experience with 24-hour compost tea. <BR>
<BR>
Dr. Subbarao's student, Brian Duffy, took E. coli-containing organic matter (compost can't have E. coli under the USDA NOP regs, so it wasn't finished compost.&nbsp; And according to the source of the "pre-compost material", it wasn't finished compost).&nbsp; The E. coli-containing material was placed in flasks, the flasks sealed and incubated for 24 hours.&nbsp; E. coli was detected in the material they sprayed on plants the following days.<BR>
<BR>
This study has nothing to do with compost tea.&nbsp; No compost tea maker is sealed shut.&nbsp; No one makes tea that way.&nbsp; There is absolutely no evidence here that aerobic compost tea could cause a problem.&nbsp; This was a study that was a waste of tax-payers' money.<BR>
<BR>
BBC Labs took the same E. coli containing material, put it in a Growing Solutions machine that always goes anaerobic in the basket during the tea making process, added sugars, molasses, and barley malt, and found E. coli growing in the 24 hour brew.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
First, the "compost" contained E. coli.&nbsp; Second, this particular tea machine always goes anaerobic in the basket, and thus sets the stage for the growth of E. coli, because the E. coli can out-compete the aerobic, beneficial organisms when oxygen is low.&nbsp; Third, the addition of sugar, molasses, barley malt probably got the bacteria growing so rapidly that they used up oxygen which helped the E. coli out-compete other organisms.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
The paper published by BBC Labs in Biocycle (not a peer-reviewed journal) had data on temperature and oxygen.&nbsp; The temperatures cited ranged from 21 to 27 C.&nbsp; The oxygen concentrations reported by Ms. Bess were between 10.1 to 10.9 mg oxygen per liter.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
It is NOT POSSIBLE to have these levels of oxygen in water at the temperatures cited.&nbsp; Consider too that the elevation of Tempe, Arizona means the oxygen concentration is even more impossible.&nbsp; Check the maximum concentration of oxygen in water on the US Geological Survey website.&nbsp;&nbsp; These concentrations are NOT POSSIBLE at these temperatures and elevations.&nbsp; Unless the air was pressurized, and there is no mention of that in the paper.&nbsp; Water holds less oxygen as temperature, or elevation, increase.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
I contend that Ms. Bess did not in fact measure oxygen in the tea brew that BBC Labs reported on.&nbsp; The oxygen data were probably from work done by the manufacturer, in Oregon, in the winter, at basically sea level.&nbsp; The oxygen data fit Oregon winter conditions.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
There are no data to support Bess' contention that the tea stayed aerobic through the whole brew cycle.&nbsp; But there's no way to know, actually, because they could not have measured the oxygen on the tea run where E. coli occurred.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Thus, the "data" on which the Compost Task Force based their recommendation were flawed.&nbsp; With or without sugar, molasses or soluble carbon materials, there was no evidence that E. coli would occur in tea.&nbsp; All our data indicate that as long as tea is kept aerobic and numbers of bacteria and fungi are high and actively growing, no E. coli will be detected, or only at very low levels.&nbsp; All tea machines that get good fungal growth must remain aerobic.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
I have been told that Vicki Bess says that the Growing Solutions tea maker "super-saturates" the water with oxygen.&nbsp; If that was true, then E. coli would not have been detected, because E.coli cannot withstand highly oxidizing conditions.&nbsp;&nbsp; In fact, no one I know who owns the Growing Solutions tea maker has obtained the high oxygen concentrations that the manufacturer shows on the web site.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
There's a serious discrepancy here.&nbsp; Until someone else can repeat the same results, i.e., show the tea maker stayed aerobic through the tea brew, and E. coli was still in high numbers at the end of the brew, this study has to be viewed as not scientifically sound.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Ms .Bess says that she has data showing that E. coli grows in aerobic conditions.&nbsp; E. coli can grow in aerobic conditions in the LAB, where we grow the organism in very specific conditions that allow E. coli to grow in aerobic conditions.&nbsp; If there are a reasonable number of aerobic organisms present, E. coli will be out-competed for food and space.&nbsp; Protozoa in the tea will consume E. coli.&nbsp; In aerobic conditions, with high numbers of competitors, predators and inhibitory compounds produced, E. coli does not survive. <BR>
<BR>
If E. coli did grow in aerated conditions found in sewage treatment plants, E. coli would be everywhere, on everything.&nbsp; But it is not, so clearly, aerobic conditions, with lots of competitive, inhibitory and consuming organisms present, will take out the E. coli.<BR>
<BR>
Why do we get concerned about E. coli?&nbsp; Because if E. coli is present, it means there is contamination by fecal material where sooner or later there will be a human pathogen present, and then we have disease.&nbsp; So, E. coli is an indicator of a problem, not something to go nuts about.&nbsp; There's a problem, work to fix it.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Pathogenic E. coli is not likely to occur if healthy animals are making the manure.&nbsp; It is much more reasonable to make a regulation about the kind of manure that can be used, that testing of the compost has to be done to document no E. coli, or that the tea brew has to stay fully aerobic so E. coli is taken out than say all compost tea is dangerous.<BR>
<BR>
Do we have data showing that E. coli does not survive in aerobic conditions?&nbsp; Yes.&nbsp; We submitted that data to several people who were at the NOSB meeting.&nbsp; Did they present that data?&nbsp; Not that I'm aware.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
A week before the NOSB meeting, Wil Brinton sent an e-mail to the compost_tea@yahoogroups.com list serve.&nbsp; He basically told us about the deal he had tried to make to keep compost tea in the NOP rules.&nbsp; The ruling about sugars came from him, apparently.&nbsp; If that rule had been adopted, we would not have been able to put compost in the compost tea, because compost contains soluble carbon materials.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
So, it was a non-choice.&nbsp; That poorly written, not-supported-by-the-data recommendation had to be removed.&nbsp; But what was it replaced by?<BR>
<BR>
Wil Brinton apparently decided that compost and worm compost tea cannot be used on foodstuffs because of the possible danger that E. coli may be present.&nbsp; But there is no evidence to say there is a danger with properly made compost tea.&nbsp; All they had to put in a regulation was that compost tea made from compost without E. coli present in the compost was acceptable.&nbsp; If made with E. coli-containing materials, the tea had to be kept aerated, and have plenty of competing bacteria, fungi and protozoa.&nbsp; We have documented the reduction in E. coli, and thus in any human pathogen, in properly made compost tea.<BR>
<BR>
For the NOSB to accept a recommendation based on incorrect studies, studies to peer-reviewed, not published in any scientifically peer-reviewed journal, using only one poorly designed tea machine, or sealed glass flasks, is just unbelievable.&nbsp;&nbsp; The data on sugars causing E. coli to grow in aerated tea is silly.&nbsp; The data in the paper clearly show that the oxygen data are not correct.&nbsp; It is very likely that the tea did not stay aerobic.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
We have repeated a number of studies showing that E. coli does not survive in aerated tea with adequate competitive life.&nbsp;&nbsp; Starting with "composted" manure with an average number of 44,000 E. coli per gram of manure, the E. coli present at the end of an incubation with molasses and kelp in the brew, was 2.7 E. coli per ml of tea.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
This is less than E. coli levels allowed in irrigation water, and irrigation can be done up to the time you pick your crop.&nbsp; Why is organic agriculture being held to a higher standard than conventional crops?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
The development process for National Organic Program regulations has been poor.&nbsp;&nbsp; The people appointed to write the recommendations did not do their jobs in a number of cases.&nbsp; A conversation with two people who don't have expertise on 24 hour compost tea wrote the regulations?&nbsp; The Compost Task Force should have researched the conditions that allow E. coli to grow, and should have known that anaerobic, or reduced oxygen conditions, are required for E. coli to grow and survive.&nbsp; Aeration result in the death of E. coli.&nbsp; High oxygen concentrations kill E. coli.&nbsp; Talk to sewage treatment people.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
We were almost saddled with a really stupid regulation about no sugar in tea.&nbsp; Then instead of doing their job once the first objection to the lack of science forced them to rescind the recommendation, they wrote a regulation that compost tea can't be used because of the fear of E. coli.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
I can put manure in coffee makers, and make a brown liquid that looks like coffee.&nbsp; Is anyone suggesting that coffee makers should be dis-allowed because someone could be stupid and put the wrong stuff in a coffee maker?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Of course not.&nbsp; The regulations should be written to state the conditions that allow safe compost tea to be made.&nbsp; Aerobic through the whole brew cycle.&nbsp; Lots of good aerobic bacteria, fungi and protozoa growing to compete with, inhibit and consume the E. coli.&nbsp; <BR>
That gets rid of the E. coli and human pathogens.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
If there is no E. coli in the starting materials, then why say there's a danger of E. coli.&nbsp; At least compost tea made with non-manure materials should have been allowed.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
But no, no tea at all can be used.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Anyone else feel like there's a hidden agenda here?&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Elaine Ingham<BR>
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.<BR>
Director of Research, Soil Foodweb New York<BR>
President, Soil Foodweb Institute, Lismore, Australia<BR>
Director of Quality Assurance, Soil Foodweb Europe, The Netherlands</FONT></HTML>

--part1_15e.162a6691.2ae9d6b0_boundary--

.

From - Fri Oct 25 02:02:08 2002
X-UIDL: 322731360
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A537FAAF0030; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 01:23:03 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A53113500252; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 01:22:57 -0400
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNSD9P2Y; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 01:22:47 -0400
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Fri Oct 25 01:22:40 2002 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 15020 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Fri, 25 Oct 2002 01:22:50 -0400
Received: from 152.163.225.101 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f)
          with TCP; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 01:22:50 -0400
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-r05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id
          d.160.162a07cb (18707) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Fri, 25 Oct
          2002 01:22:32 -0400 (EDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="part1_160.162a07cb.2aea2f18_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows AU sub 10503
Message-ID:  <160.162a07cb.2aea2f18@aol.com>
Date:         Fri, 25 Oct 2002 01:22:32 EDT
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731360
Status: U

--part1_160.162a07cb.2aea2f18_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

For those of you interested in learning about the microbiology of compost
teas, you might want to read the Compost Tea Brewing Manual, from Soil
Foodweb Inc. in Corvallis, OR.

With respect to organisms in tea, white sugar is rarely used, as it selects
for ess-than-wonderful species of bacteria.  Blackstrap molasses with no
sulfur, is more common, since it contains a much wider diversity of sugars,
along with a bit of fungal food.

Fish emulsion is a good food to grow some very diverse bacteria, and improves
several groups of quite beneficial bacteria.  But more important than these
additives are the soluble materials that come out of the compost.  They
enhance the growth of quite a few beneficial species of bacteria.

We need to be careful that we are discussing AEROBIC compost, not putrefying
organic matter.  Species diversity is quite limited in putrefying materials.
And unfortunately, that is the material often mistaken for compost by
academics who don't know what real compost is.

By definition, composting is an aerobic process, producing microbial biomass,
some metabolic wastes and carbon dioxide.  Anaerobic digestion leaves a good
25 to 50% of the carbon present as organic matter - stinky, smelly organic
matter in many cases.

So, aerobic, ok?  If you have aerobic conditions, then you have MANY species
of microorganisms, up to as many as 25,000 unique DNA sequences from a gram
of compost.
We use morphological methods as well, and have come up with as many as 20,000
unique morphological types of bacteria and fungi in a gram of compost as
well.

Plate counts don't even get you close to that, because, as Joel Gruver points
out, most of the organisms in soil, or compost or compost tea can't grow on
lab media.  We don't know the mix of foods, temperatures and
moistures/humidities they need to grow.  Thus using plate count approaches is
nonsensical for assessing numbers or species diversity in environmental
samples.  To grow an organism for whom you know their growth conditions, then
that's a different story.  But we only know this for a few species of
bacteria and fungi.

Aeration in tea is needed to set up conditions that select against human
pathogens (which require reduced or low oxygen conditions), against plant
pathogens such a Pythium and Phytopthora, Rhizoctonia and Fusarium, which do
better in oxygen reduced conditions.  Reduced oxygen allows these diseases to
be competitive, while in fully aerobic conditions, they cannot out-compete or
inhibit anyone else growing.  That's why compacted soils have so many disease
problems.  The diseases are being helped out by the soil conditions.

The added foods help to grow some very beneficial species, at least species
that researchers tout as beneficial.  We see many fluorescent pseudomonads
which produce the desired growth hormones, bacillus species that result in
repulsion of many insect pests, nitrogen fixing bacterial species, and the
species of bacteria that are especially good at decomposing recalcitrant
carbon compounds, and pesticides enhanced as a result of the added foods.

Diversity of the kinds of carbon is important.

But simple occupation of space is critical too.  If there is no space for the
disease spore to reach the leaf surface, there is much less likelihood of
disease.  If the leaf surface is covered, then all the infection sites are
occupied.  If the leaf surface is covered, then all the foods the plant
produces are used by the protective layer, and there is no food to grow the
pathogen.  So, multiple mechanisms of control.  Let us not rely on just one.


All the species possible, completely covering the leaf, blossom, bark, etc.
We have some astounding results in protecting plants against disease, both on
the leaf surface and the root surface.

So, yes, teas work better with aeration (suppress and get rid of the disease
organisms), with the right foods (grow just the good guys), and with
nutrients.  But often the added nutrients are really for the plant.  As the
organisms grow on the leaf surface, they respire, and that elevated carbon
dioxide causes the stomates to open, and the nutrients move into the plant
more rapidly, for a longer time.  Some impressive greening up as a result.
Temperature is of course important, as is water, and other nutrients not
limiting, but given those being ok, plants can show marked improvements.

I hope this helps explain what is going on with 24 hour compost tea.  These
are not slimy, smelly 3-week brews but they are 24 hour, aerobic tea brews.
Cleaning the machine is extremely critical.  Control of the quality of the
tea maker is important.   Testing is necessary.  No human pathogens in the
compost!  Quality products in, quality out.

Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc, Corvallis OR
President, Soil Foodweb Institute, Lismore, Australia
Affiliate Faculty, Southern Cross University
Director of Research, Soil Foodweb New York
Director of Quality Assurance, Soil Foodweb Europe
(I was assistant and then associate professor at Oregon State University for
nearly 15 years, but last December decided to go full time with SFI.)

--part1_160.162a07cb.2aea2f18_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=4 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">For those of you interested in learning about the microbiology of compost teas, you might want to read the Compost Tea Brewing Manual, from Soil Foodweb Inc. in Corvallis, OR.<BR>
<BR>
With respect to organisms in tea, white sugar is rarely used, as it selects for ess-than-wonderful species of bacteria.&nbsp; Blackstrap molasses with no sulfur, is more common, since it contains a much wider diversity of sugars, along with a bit of fungal food.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Fish emulsion is a good food to grow some very diverse bacteria, and improves several groups of quite beneficial bacteria.&nbsp; But more important than these additives are the soluble materials that come out of the compost.&nbsp; They enhance the growth of quite a few beneficial species of bacteria. <BR>
<BR>
We need to be careful that we are discussing AEROBIC compost, not putrefying organic matter.&nbsp; Species diversity is quite limited in putrefying materials.&nbsp; And unfortunately, that is the material often mistaken for compost by academics who don't know what real compost is.<BR>
<BR>
By definition, composting is an aerobic process, producing microbial biomass, some metabolic wastes and carbon dioxide.&nbsp; Anaerobic digestion leaves a good 25 to 50% of the carbon present as organic matter - stinky, smelly organic matter in many cases..&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
So, aerobic, ok?&nbsp; If you have aerobic conditions, then you have MANY species of microorganisms, up to as many as 25,000 unique DNA sequences from a gram of compost.&nbsp; <BR>
We use morphological methods as well, and have come up with as many as 20,000 unique morphological types of bacteria and fungi in a gram of compost as well.<BR>
<BR>
Plate counts don't even get you close to that, because, as Joel Gruver points out, most of the organisms in soil, or compost or compost tea can't grow on lab media.&nbsp; We don't know the mix of foods, temperatures and moistures/humidities they need to grow.&nbsp; Thus using plate count approaches is nonsensical for assessing numbers or species diversity in environmental samples.&nbsp; To grow an organism for whom you know their growth conditions, then that's a different story.&nbsp; But we only know this for a few species of bacteria and fungi.<BR>
<BR>
Aeration in tea is needed to set up conditions that select against human pathogens (which require reduced or low oxygen conditions), against plant pathogens such a Pythium and Phytopthora, Rhizoctonia and Fusarium, which do better in oxygen reduced conditions.&nbsp; Reduced oxygen allows these diseases to be competitive, while in fully aerobic conditions, they cannot out-compete or inhibit anyone else growing.&nbsp; That's why compacted soils have so many disease problems.&nbsp; The diseases are being helped out by the soil conditions. <BR>
<BR>
The added foods help to grow some very beneficial species, at least species that researchers tout as beneficial.&nbsp; We see many fluorescent pseudomonads which produce the desired growth hormones, bacillus species that result in repulsion of many insect pests, nitrogen fixing bacterial species, and the species of bacteria that are especially good at decomposing recalcitrant carbon compounds, and pesticides enhanced as a result of the added foods.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Diversity of the kinds of carbon is important.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
But simple occupation of space is critical too.&nbsp; If there is no space for the disease spore to reach the leaf surface, there is much less likelihood of disease.&nbsp; If the leaf surface is covered, then all the infection sites are occupied.&nbsp; If the leaf surface is covered, then all the foods the plant produces are used by the protective layer, and there is no food to grow the pathogen.&nbsp; So, multiple mechanisms of control.&nbsp; Let us not rely on just one.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
All the species possible, completely covering the leaf, blossom, bark, etc.&nbsp; We have some astounding results in protecting plants against disease, both on the leaf surface and the root surface. <BR>
<BR>
So, yes, teas work better with aeration (suppress and get rid of the disease organisms), with the right foods (grow just the good guys), and with nutrients.&nbsp; But often the added nutrients are really for the plant.&nbsp; As the organisms grow on the leaf surface, they respire, and that elevated carbon dioxide causes the stomates to open, and the nutrients move into the plant more rapidly, for a longer time.&nbsp; Some impressive greening up as a result.&nbsp; Temperature is of course important, as is water, and other nutrients not limiting, but given those being ok, plants can show marked improvements.<BR>
<BR>
I hope this helps explain what is going on with 24 hour compost tea.&nbsp; These are not slimy, smelly 3-week brews but they are 24 hour, aerobic tea brews.&nbsp; Cleaning the machine is extremely critical.&nbsp; Control of the quality of the tea maker is important.&nbsp;&nbsp; Testing is necessary.&nbsp; No human pathogens in the compost!&nbsp; Quality products in, quality out.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Elaine Ingham<BR>
President, Soil Foodweb Inc, Corvallis OR<BR>
President, Soil Foodweb Institute, Lismore, Australia<BR>
Affiliate Faculty, Southern Cross University<BR>
Director of Research, Soil Foodweb New York<BR>
Director of Quality Assurance, Soil Foodweb Europe<BR>
(I was assistant and then associate professor at Oregon State University for nearly 15 years, but last December decided to go full time with SFI.)<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_160.162a07cb.2aea2f18_boundary--

.

From - Thu Oct 24 19:28:49 2002
X-UIDL: 322731339
X-Mozilla-Status: 1013
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AF375EC60066; Thu, 24 Oct 2002 19:16:07 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AF321BE90278; Thu, 24 Oct 2002 19:16:02 -0400
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNSD9JQP; Thu, 24 Oct 2002 19:15:29 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 14758 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Thu, 24 Oct 2002 19:15:41 -0400
Received: from 152.163.225.98 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Thu, 24 Oct 2002 19:05:41 -0400
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-r02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id
          d.15e.162a6691 (30950) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Thu, 24 Oct
          2002 19:05:21 -0400 (EDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="part1_15e.162a6691.2ae9d6b0_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows AU sub 10503
Message-ID:  <15e.162a6691.2ae9d6b0@aol.com>
Date:         Thu, 24 Oct 2002 19:05:20 EDT
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Compost Tea
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731339
Status: U

--part1_15e.162a6691.2ae9d6b0_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

There have been questions about the National Organic Program regs on compost
tea, so let me offer some perspective.

The National Organics Standard Board appointed the Compost Task Force to
write the regs on compost.  The task force was also given the task of writing
the compost tea regulations.

Apparently, the Compost Task Force chairperson, Eric Sideman, called two
people, Wil Brinton, and Pat Milner, and on the basis of their opinions,
wrote the regs on compost tea.  Initially, the recommendation said that
sugar, molasses, barley malt and soluble carbon materials could not be used
in compost tea, because E. coli would grow if these materials were in the
tea.

Why was this reg put together?  Where did that come from?  Is it meaningful?


First of all, who are Wil Brinton and Pat Milner?  Wil had given up on 3-week
anaerobic compost teas  because he could never get rid of the E. coli.  Pat
Milner has never made compost tea, that I am aware, but had funded two
studies on compost tea.  The studies were performed at the USDA lab in
Albany, CA by a student of Dr. Subbarao's,  whose background is in the
pharmaceutical industry, and the second study was done by BBC Labs, run by
Ms. Vicki Bess, who has a Master's degree in microbiology.  Neither has
experience with 24-hour compost tea.

Dr. Subbarao's student, Brian Duffy, took E. coli-containing organic matter
(compost can't have E. coli under the USDA NOP regs, so it wasn't finished
compost.  And according to the source of the "pre-compost material", it
wasn't finished compost).  The E. coli-containing material was placed in
flasks, the flasks sealed and incubated for 24 hours.  E. coli was detected
in the material they sprayed on plants the following days.

This study has nothing to do with compost tea.  No compost tea maker is
sealed shut.  No one makes tea that way.  There is absolutely no evidence
here that aerobic compost tea could cause a problem.  This was a study that
was a waste of tax-payers' money.

BBC Labs took the same E. coli containing material, put it in a Growing
Solutions machine that always goes anaerobic in the basket during the tea
making process, added sugars, molasses, and barley malt, and found E. coli
growing in the 24 hour brew.

First, the "compost" contained E. coli.  Second, this particular tea machine
always goes anaerobic in the basket, and thus sets the stage for the growth
of E. coli, because the E. coli can out-compete the aerobic, beneficial
organisms when oxygen is low.  Third, the addition of sugar, molasses, barley
malt probably got the bacteria growing so rapidly that they used up oxygen
which helped the E. coli out-compete other organisms.

The paper published by BBC Labs in Biocycle (not a peer-reviewed journal) had
data on temperature and oxygen.  The temperatures cited ranged from 21 to 27
C.  The oxygen concentrations reported by Ms. Bess were between 10.1 to 10.9
mg oxygen per liter.

It is NOT POSSIBLE to have these levels of oxygen in water at the
temperatures cited.  Consider too that the elevation of Tempe, Arizona means
the oxygen concentration is even more impossible.  Check the maximum
concentration of oxygen in water on the US Geological Survey website.   These
concentrations are NOT POSSIBLE at these temperatures and elevations.  Unless
the air was pressurized, and there is no mention of that in the paper.  Water
holds less oxygen as temperature, or elevation, increase.

I contend that Ms. Bess did not in fact measure oxygen in the tea brew that
BBC Labs reported on.  The oxygen data were probably from work done by the
manufacturer, in Oregon, in the winter, at basically sea level.  The oxygen
data fit Oregon winter conditions.

There are no data to support Bess' contention that the tea stayed aerobic
through the whole brew cycle.  But there's no way to know, actually, because
they could not have measured the oxygen on the tea run where E. coli
occurred.

Thus, the "data" on which the Compost Task Force based their recommendation
were flawed.  With or without sugar, molasses or soluble carbon materials,
there was no evidence that E. coli would occur in tea.  All our data indicate
that as long as tea is kept aerobic and numbers of bacteria and fungi are
high and actively growing, no E. coli will be detected, or only at very low
levels.  All tea machines that get good fungal growth must remain aerobic.

I have been told that Vicki Bess says that the Growing Solutions tea maker
"super-saturates" the water with oxygen.  If that was true, then E. coli
would not have been detected, because E.coli cannot withstand highly
oxidizing conditions.   In fact, no one I know who owns the Growing Solutions
tea maker has obtained the high oxygen concentrations that the manufacturer
shows on the web site.

There's a serious discrepancy here.  Until someone else can repeat the same
results, i.e., show the tea maker stayed aerobic through the tea brew, and E.
coli was still in high numbers at the end of the brew, this study has to be
viewed as not scientifically sound.

Ms .Bess says that she has data showing that E. coli grows in aerobic
conditions.  E. coli can grow in aerobic conditions in the LAB, where we grow
the organism in very specific conditions that allow E. coli to grow in
aerobic conditions.  If there are a reasonable number of aerobic organisms
present, E. coli will be out-competed for food and space.  Protozoa in the
tea will consume E. coli.  In aerobic conditions, with high numbers of
competitors, predators and inhibitory compounds produced, E. coli does not
survive.

If E. coli did grow in aerated conditions found in sewage treatment plants,
E. coli would be everywhere, on everything.  But it is not, so clearly,
aerobic conditions, with lots of competitive, inhibitory and consuming
organisms present, will take out the E. coli.

Why do we get concerned about E. coli?  Because if E. coli is present, it
means there is contamination by fecal material where sooner or later there
will be a human pathogen present, and then we have disease.  So, E. coli is
an indicator of a problem, not something to go nuts about.  There's a
problem, work to fix it.

Pathogenic E. coli is not likely to occur if healthy animals are making the
manure.  It is much more reasonable to make a regulation about the kind of
manure that can be used, that testing of the compost has to be done to
document no E. coli, or that the tea brew has to stay fully aerobic so E.
coli is taken out than say all compost tea is dangerous.

Do we have data showing that E. coli does not survive in aerobic conditions?
Yes.  We submitted that data to several people who were at the NOSB meeting.
Did they present that data?  Not that I'm aware.

A week before the NOSB meeting, Wil Brinton sent an e-mail to the
compost_tea@yahoogroups.com list serve.  He basically told us about the deal
he had tried to make to keep compost tea in the NOP rules.  The ruling about
sugars came from him, apparently.  If that rule had been adopted, we would
not have been able to put compost in the compost tea, because compost
contains soluble carbon materials.

So, it was a non-choice.  That poorly written, not-supported-by-the-data
recommendation had to be removed.  But what was it replaced by?

Wil Brinton apparently decided that compost and worm compost tea cannot be
used on foodstuffs because of the possible danger that E. coli may be
present.  But there is no evidence to say there is a danger with properly
made compost tea.  All they had to put in a regulation was that compost tea
made from compost without E. coli present in the compost was acceptable.  If
made with E. coli-containing materials, the tea had to be kept aerated, and
have plenty of competing bacteria, fungi and protozoa.  We have documented
the reduction in E. coli, and thus in any human pathogen, in properly made
compost tea.

For the NOSB to accept a recommendation based on incorrect studies, studies
to peer-reviewed, not published in any scientifically peer-reviewed journal,
using only one poorly designed tea machine, or sealed glass flasks, is just
unbelievable.   The data on sugars causing E. coli to grow in aerated tea is
silly.  The data in the paper clearly show that the oxygen data are not
correct.  It is very likely that the tea did not stay aerobic.

We have repeated a number of studies showing that E. coli does not survive in
aerated tea with adequate competitive life.   Starting with "composted"
manure with an average number of 44,000 E. coli per gram of manure, the E.
coli present at the end of an incubation with molasses and kelp in the brew,
was 2.7 E. coli per ml of tea.

This is less than E. coli levels allowed in irrigation water, and irrigation
can be done up to the time you pick your crop.  Why is organic agriculture
being held to a higher standard than conventional crops?

The development process for National Organic Program regulations has been
poor.   The people appointed to write the recommendations did not do their
jobs in a number of cases.  A conversation with two people who don't have
expertise on 24 hour compost tea wrote the regulations?  The Compost Task
Force should have researched the conditions that allow E. coli to grow, and
should have known that anaerobic, or reduced oxygen conditions, are required
for E. coli to grow and survive.  Aeration result in the death of E. coli.
High oxygen concentrations kill E. coli.  Talk to sewage treatment people.

We were almost saddled with a really stupid regulation about no sugar in tea.
 Then instead of doing their job once the first objection to the lack of
science forced them to rescind the recommendation, they wrote a regulation
that compost tea can't be used because of the fear of E. coli.

I can put manure in coffee makers, and make a brown liquid that looks like
coffee.  Is anyone suggesting that coffee makers should be dis-allowed
because someone could be stupid and put the wrong stuff in a coffee maker?

Of course not.  The regulations should be written to state the conditions
that allow safe compost tea to be made.  Aerobic through the whole brew
cycle.  Lots of good aerobic bacteria, fungi and protozoa growing to compete
with, inhibit and consume the E. coli.
That gets rid of the E. coli and human pathogens.

If there is no E. coli in the starting materials, then why say there's a
danger of E. coli.  At least compost tea made with non-manure materials
should have been allowed.

But no, no tea at all can be used.

Anyone else feel like there's a hidden agenda here?

Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
Director of Research, Soil Foodweb New York
President, Soil Foodweb Institute, Lismore, Australia
Director of Quality Assurance, Soil Foodweb Europe, The Netherlands

--part1_15e.162a6691.2ae9d6b0_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=4 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">There have been questions about the National Organic Program regs on compost tea, so let me offer some perspective.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
The National Organics Standard Board appointed the Compost Task Force to write the regs on compost.&nbsp; The task force was also given the task of writing the compost tea regulations.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Apparently, the Compost Task Force chairperson, Eric Sideman, called two people, Wil Brinton, and Pat Milner, and on the basis of their opinions, wrote the regs on compost tea.&nbsp; Initially, the recommendation said that sugar, molasses, barley malt and soluble carbon materials could not be used in compost tea, because E. coli would grow if these materials were in the tea. <BR>
<BR>
Why was this reg put together?&nbsp; Where did that come from?&nbsp; Is it meaningful?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
First of all, who are Wil Brinton and Pat Milner?&nbsp; Wil had given up on 3-week anaerobic compost teas&nbsp; because he could never get rid of the E. coli.&nbsp; Pat Milner has never made compost tea, that I am aware, but had funded two studies on compost tea.&nbsp; The studies were performed at the USDA lab in Albany, CA by a student of Dr. Subbarao's,&nbsp; whose background is in the pharmaceutical industry, and the second study was done by BBC Labs, run by Ms. Vicki Bess, who has a Master's degree in microbiology.&nbsp; Neither has experience with 24-hour compost tea. <BR>
<BR>
Dr. Subbarao's student, Brian Duffy, took E. coli-containing organic matter (compost can't have E. coli under the USDA NOP regs, so it wasn't finished compost.&nbsp; And according to the source of the "pre-compost material", it wasn't finished compost).&nbsp; The E. coli-containing material was placed in flasks, the flasks sealed and incubated for 24 hours.&nbsp; E. coli was detected in the material they sprayed on plants the following days.<BR>
<BR>
This study has nothing to do with compost tea.&nbsp; No compost tea maker is sealed shut.&nbsp; No one makes tea that way.&nbsp; There is absolutely no evidence here that aerobic compost tea could cause a problem.&nbsp; This was a study that was a waste of tax-payers' money.<BR>
<BR>
BBC Labs took the same E. coli containing material, put it in a Growing Solutions machine that always goes anaerobic in the basket during the tea making process, added sugars, molasses, and barley malt, and found E. coli growing in the 24 hour brew.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
First, the "compost" contained E. coli.&nbsp; Second, this particular tea machine always goes anaerobic in the basket, and thus sets the stage for the growth of E. coli, because the E. coli can out-compete the aerobic, beneficial organisms when oxygen is low.&nbsp; Third, the addition of sugar, molasses, barley malt probably got the bacteria growing so rapidly that they used up oxygen which helped the E. coli out-compete other organisms.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
The paper published by BBC Labs in Biocycle (not a peer-reviewed journal) had data on temperature and oxygen.&nbsp; The temperatures cited ranged from 21 to 27 C.&nbsp; The oxygen concentrations reported by Ms. Bess were between 10.1 to 10.9 mg oxygen per liter.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
It is NOT POSSIBLE to have these levels of oxygen in water at the temperatures cited.&nbsp; Consider too that the elevation of Tempe, Arizona means the oxygen concentration is even more impossible.&nbsp; Check the maximum concentration of oxygen in water on the US Geological Survey website.&nbsp;&nbsp; These concentrations are NOT POSSIBLE at these temperatures and elevations.&nbsp; Unless the air was pressurized, and there is no mention of that in the paper.&nbsp; Water holds less oxygen as temperature, or elevation, increase.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
I contend that Ms. Bess did not in fact measure oxygen in the tea brew that BBC Labs reported on.&nbsp; The oxygen data were probably from work done by the manufacturer, in Oregon, in the winter, at basically sea level.&nbsp; The oxygen data fit Oregon winter conditions.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
There are no data to support Bess' contention that the tea stayed aerobic through the whole brew cycle.&nbsp; But there's no way to know, actually, because they could not have measured the oxygen on the tea run where E. coli occurred.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Thus, the "data" on which the Compost Task Force based their recommendation were flawed.&nbsp; With or without sugar, molasses or soluble carbon materials, there was no evidence that E. coli would occur in tea.&nbsp; All our data indicate that as long as tea is kept aerobic and numbers of bacteria and fungi are high and actively growing, no E. coli will be detected, or only at very low levels.&nbsp; All tea machines that get good fungal growth must remain aerobic.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
I have been told that Vicki Bess says that the Growing Solutions tea maker "super-saturates" the water with oxygen.&nbsp; If that was true, then E. coli would not have been detected, because E.coli cannot withstand highly oxidizing conditions.&nbsp;&nbsp; In fact, no one I know who owns the Growing Solutions tea maker has obtained the high oxygen concentrations that the manufacturer shows on the web site.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
There's a serious discrepancy here.&nbsp; Until someone else can repeat the same results, i.e., show the tea maker stayed aerobic through the tea brew, and E. coli was still in high numbers at the end of the brew, this study has to be viewed as not scientifically sound.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Ms .Bess says that she has data showing that E. coli grows in aerobic conditions.&nbsp; E. coli can grow in aerobic conditions in the LAB, where we grow the organism in very specific conditions that allow E. coli to grow in aerobic conditions.&nbsp; If there are a reasonable number of aerobic organisms present, E. coli will be out-competed for food and space.&nbsp; Protozoa in the tea will consume E. coli.&nbsp; In aerobic conditions, with high numbers of competitors, predators and inhibitory compounds produced, E. coli does not survive. <BR>
<BR>
If E. coli did grow in aerated conditions found in sewage treatment plants, E. coli would be everywhere, on everything.&nbsp; But it is not, so clearly, aerobic conditions, with lots of competitive, inhibitory and consuming organisms present, will take out the E. coli.<BR>
<BR>
Why do we get concerned about E. coli?&nbsp; Because if E. coli is present, it means there is contamination by fecal material where sooner or later there will be a human pathogen present, and then we have disease.&nbsp; So, E. coli is an indicator of a problem, not something to go nuts about.&nbsp; There's a problem, work to fix it.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Pathogenic E. coli is not likely to occur if healthy animals are making the manure.&nbsp; It is much more reasonable to make a regulation about the kind of manure that can be used, that testing of the compost has to be done to document no E. coli, or that the tea brew has to stay fully aerobic so E. coli is taken out than say all compost tea is dangerous.<BR>
<BR>
Do we have data showing that E. coli does not survive in aerobic conditions?&nbsp; Yes.&nbsp; We submitted that data to several people who were at the NOSB meeting.&nbsp; Did they present that data?&nbsp; Not that I'm aware.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
A week before the NOSB meeting, Wil Brinton sent an e-mail to the compost_tea@yahoogroups.com list serve.&nbsp; He basically told us about the deal he had tried to make to keep compost tea in the NOP rules.&nbsp; The ruling about sugars came from him, apparently.&nbsp; If that rule had been adopted, we would not have been able to put compost in the compost tea, because compost contains soluble carbon materials.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
So, it was a non-choice.&nbsp; That poorly written, not-supported-by-the-data recommendation had to be removed.&nbsp; But what was it replaced by?<BR>
<BR>
Wil Brinton apparently decided that compost and worm compost tea cannot be used on foodstuffs because of the possible danger that E. coli may be present.&nbsp; But there is no evidence to say there is a danger with properly made compost tea.&nbsp; All they had to put in a regulation was that compost tea made from compost without E. coli present in the compost was acceptable.&nbsp; If made with E. coli-containing materials, the tea had to be kept aerated, and have plenty of competing bacteria, fungi and protozoa.&nbsp; We have documented the reduction in E. coli, and thus in any human pathogen, in properly made compost tea.<BR>
<BR>
For the NOSB to accept a recommendation based on incorrect studies, studies to peer-reviewed, not published in any scientifically peer-reviewed journal, using only one poorly designed tea machine, or sealed glass flasks, is just unbelievable.&nbsp;&nbsp; The data on sugars causing E. coli to grow in aerated tea is silly.&nbsp; The data in the paper clearly show that the oxygen data are not correct.&nbsp; It is very likely that the tea did not stay aerobic.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
We have repeated a number of studies showing that E. coli does not survive in aerated tea with adequate competitive life.&nbsp;&nbsp; Starting with "composted" manure with an average number of 44,000 E. coli per gram of manure, the E. coli present at the end of an incubation with molasses and kelp in the brew, was 2.7 E. coli per ml of tea.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
This is less than E. coli levels allowed in irrigation water, and irrigation can be done up to the time you pick your crop.&nbsp; Why is organic agriculture being held to a higher standard than conventional crops?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
The development process for National Organic Program regulations has been poor.&nbsp;&nbsp; The people appointed to write the recommendations did not do their jobs in a number of cases.&nbsp; A conversation with two people who don't have expertise on 24 hour compost tea wrote the regulations?&nbsp; The Compost Task Force should have researched the conditions that allow E. coli to grow, and should have known that anaerobic, or reduced oxygen conditions, are required for E. coli to grow and survive.&nbsp; Aeration result in the death of E. coli.&nbsp; High oxygen concentrations kill E. coli.&nbsp; Talk to sewage treatment people.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
We were almost saddled with a really stupid regulation about no sugar in tea.&nbsp; Then instead of doing their job once the first objection to the lack of science forced them to rescind the recommendation, they wrote a regulation that compost tea can't be used because of the fear of E. coli.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
I can put manure in coffee makers, and make a brown liquid that looks like coffee.&nbsp; Is anyone suggesting that coffee makers should be dis-allowed because someone could be stupid and put the wrong stuff in a coffee maker?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Of course not.&nbsp; The regulations should be written to state the conditions that allow safe compost tea to be made.&nbsp; Aerobic through the whole brew cycle.&nbsp; Lots of good aerobic bacteria, fungi and protozoa growing to compete with, inhibit and consume the E. coli.&nbsp; <BR>
That gets rid of the E. coli and human pathogens.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
If there is no E. coli in the starting materials, then why say there's a danger of E. coli.&nbsp; At least compost tea made with non-manure materials should have been allowed.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
But no, no tea at all can be used.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Anyone else feel like there's a hidden agenda here?&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Elaine Ingham<BR>
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.<BR>
Director of Research, Soil Foodweb New York<BR>
President, Soil Foodweb Institute, Lismore, Australia<BR>
Director of Quality Assurance, Soil Foodweb Europe, The Netherlands</FONT></HTML>

--part1_15e.162a6691.2ae9d6b0_boundary--

.

From - Wed Oct 23 15:18:35 2002
X-UIDL: 322731265
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AC3D3D90036; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:36:45 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AC431A370272; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:36:51 -0400
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNSD7RFD; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:41:07 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 13068 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:36:11 -0400
Received: from 205.158.62.78 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:36:11 -0400
Received: (qmail 17454 invoked from network); 23 Oct 2002 18:35:57 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO jeffu9jv0ylyde)
          (jeff:gardener.com?iname.com@209.112.209.169) by
          205-158-62-78.outblaze.com with SMTP; 23 Oct 2002 18:35:57 -0000
References: <20021023142129.33950.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com> 
            <821000350046.20021023115134@gmx.net>
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106
Message-ID:  <003d01c27ac3$3a4691f0$9865fea9@jeffu9jv0ylyde>
Date:         Wed, 23 Oct 2002 10:37:22 -0800
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Jeff Lowenfels <jeff@GARDENER.COM>
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its head)
Comments: To: Douglas Hinds <cedecor@gmx.net>
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731265
Status: U

It is great how this thing has ranged, but the issue is whether using sugars
to increase bacterial biomass in compost teas is inconsistent with Organic
methods. Adding beneficial bacteria and fungi, protozoa and in some cases
nematodes to the soil surely has to be considered within the scope as
Organic.    It is exactly analogous to putting mulch down or compost to a
lesser degree.

The only issue is does it cause E. coli to grow...... a conclusion the NOSB
reached as a result of what many of us believe were flawed studies based on
personal agendas.... there were supposed two, not reported and not peer
reviewed.

Again, adding fungi, bacteria and protozoa is clearly organic. It is what we
all do when we mulch and apply compost. THE  ISSUE IS E COLI AND BAD
SCIENCE. AND NOT IF SUGARS ARE FOUND IN NATURE.....

     Jeff L

.

From - Tue Oct 22 16:01:47 2002
X-UIDL: 322731162
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A9A6D1D01F0; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 15:40:22 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A9788DC7003C; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 15:39:36 -0400
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNSD6CS0; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 15:39:29 -0400
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Tue Oct 22 15:44:20 2002 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 11207 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Tue, 22 Oct 2002 15:39:25 -0400
Received: from 216.136.175.165 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f)
          with TCP; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 15:39:24 -0400
Received: from [12.31.96.58] by web21207.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 22 Oct
          2002 12:39:10 PDT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID:  <20021022193910.10532.qmail@web21207.mail.yahoo.com>
Date:         Tue, 22 Oct 2002 12:39:10 -0700
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Dale Wilson <nosliwelad@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its head)
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <004f01c279e5$773fd960$ee903a42@jeffu9jv0ylyde>
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731162
Status: U

Jeff,

> I have my teas tested frequently and have seen the numbers.

What species (or genera) predominate?

Dale

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/

.

From - Tue Oct 22 15:47:22 2002
X-UIDL: 322731161
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A62A9938003C; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 15:25:30 -0400
Received: from nt-web [128.227.242.140] by smtp.intrex.net
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A625A20029C; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 15:25:25 -0400
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Tue Oct 22 14:56:46 2002 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 11032 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Tue, 22 Oct 2002 14:51:51 -0400
Received: from 209.42.192.250 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 14:51:50 -0400
Received: from intrex.net [209.42.230.67] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
          (SMTPD32-5.05) id AE361C570208; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 14:51:34 -0400
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1)
            Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <20021022122855.20753.qmail@web21203.mail.yahoo.com>
            <004f01c279e5$773fd960$ee903a42@jeffu9jv0ylyde>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Declude-Sender: lfl@intrex.net [209.42.230.67]
Message-ID:  <3DB5CA40.4090407@intrex.net>
Date:         Tue, 22 Oct 2002 14:59:28 -0700
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@INTREX.NET>
Organization: http://market-farming.com  --  Venaura Farm
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its head)
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.140]
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.140]
X-Note: Total weight is 4. HELOBOGUS
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731161
Status: U

Jeff Lowenfels wrote:
> I am not sure Joel is right about 95% of soil bacteria not being
> culturable......you mean you can't grow them in a petri dish? Where do you
> get this statistic?
>
> I have my teas tested frequently and have seen the numbers. The biodiversity
> is amazing and if that is only 5 % then so be it......though, again, I doubt
> the percentage.... I would suggest Joel get in touch with

Dr. Elaine Ingham
Soil Foodweb, Incorporated
info@soilfoodweb.com
http://www.soilfoodweb.com/phpweb/

or Dr.Eric Nelsonn (Cornell) to answer his questions.

-
See: GreenReleaf Novozymes
http://www.bi-chem.com/green_releaf/professional/tech_info/tech_info_backgrd.htm
 From their website:
"Soil bacteria also manufacture a suite of trigger compounds that are attractive
to other soil microbes and when present in the rhizosphere this consortium of
microbes can be extremely beneficial to plants. Plus, when beneficial bacteria
colonize the root surface they can often help exclude pathogenic microbes from
gaining access to the roots. Interestingly, when plants are grown under sterile
conditions they often do not thrive as well as when the full microbial community
is present."

--
L.F.London
lfl@intrex.net
http://market-farming.com

.

From - Tue Oct 22 21:58:50 2002
X-UIDL: 322731194
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A0598EBF0038; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:50:17 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A04FC3CF0042; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:50:10 -0400
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNSD6PYL; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:54:09 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 11636 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:49:13 -0400
Received: from 209.42.192.250 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:49:13 -0400
Received: from intrex.net [209.42.230.67] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
          (SMTPD32-5.05) id A00CC3C60042; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:49:00 -0400
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1)
            Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <1.5.4.32.20021022213538.009a44a0@gwpop.wvu.edu>           
            <34935035062.20021022174259@gmx.net>           
            <00c701c27a21$718e3610$8acb3bcb@dmflkwfouhswsa>
            <122938864468.20021022184648@gmx.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID:  <3DB62C14.1090009@intrex.net>
Date:         Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:56:52 -0700
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@INTREX.NET>
Organization: http://market-farming.com  --  Venaura Farm
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its head)
Comments: To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org,
          organic-gardening@lists.ibiblio.org, marketfarming@lists.ibiblio.org
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731194
Status: U

[exerpted from the SFI, Inc., Soil Foodweb Newsletter, August 2002
archived at:
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/pcwiki/pcwikiufu/August2002Ezine.txt]
<><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Dr. Elaine Ingham
Soil Foodweb, Incorporated
info@soilfoodweb.com
http://www.soilfoodweb.com/phpweb/
AUGUST 2002 EZINE
<><><><><><><><><><><><><>
What is the Soil Foodweb?

"What is soil? · Bedrock weathered into parent material, or the sand, silt and
clay fractions. These fractions
hold the minerals, typically measured as CEC, or cation-exchange capacity.  The
minerals held in the sand,
silt and clay are NOT plant available and  must be processed by bacteria and
fungi, protozoa, nematodes or
microarthropods to become plant available. ·    Organic matter, which is food to
feed the organisms. ·
Bacteria, fungi, protozoa, nematodes, microarthropods. ·        Soil aggregates
are built by the bacteria,
fungi, protozoa, nematodes and microarthropods using organic matter and the
sand, silt, clay.

The least productive soils in the world are those with the least amount of
organic matter and the least
complex food webs, which mean the fewest numbers and diversity of soil
organisms.  The least productive soils
will be nearly 100% bacterial.  The fungal component increases directly as
system productivity increases.

The most productive soils are those with the greatest amount of organic matter
used by BENEFICIAL bacteria,
fungi, protozoa, nematodes and microarthropods to build soil structure.  The
most productive soils in the
world are 100 to 1000 times more fungal than bacterial.  There is more fungal
biomass present in an old
growth forest than there is biomass in trees!  The most productive soils have
more bacteria than less
productive soils, but the fungi far outweigh bacteria in the most productive
systems.

What is the soil foodweb? The soil foodweb is the set of bacteria, fungi,
protozoa, nematodes,
microarthopods, earthworms, and other critters in soil, which use the litter
material dropped to the soil by
the plants and the roots and the root exudates released by the plants.

The exact composition of the foodweb changes at each stage of succession.  You
need to know what your plants
require in terms of the ratio of fungi to bacteria in soil, protozoa and
nematodes, microarthropods, in order
to set up nutrient cycling and nutrient availability correct for the plant.

The benefits of having a healthy soil foodweb are: ·    Retention of nutrients
in the soil instead of
leaching (stop using fertilizers) ·     Prevention of erosion (soil aggregation
keeps things tied down,
slopes don’t slide) ·   Disease suppression and prevention (stop using
pesticides) ·    Decompose toxic
materials in your soil ·        Increase plant growth by having the proper plant
growth hormones made by the
biology in the soil ·   Build soil structure (reduce watering by 50% over the
course of 1 to 2 years,
increase water infiltration into the soil and reduce erosion because water moves
the soil instead of running
over the surface)

Compost is an excellent way to replace the life in your soil, but applying solid
material to large areas, or
transporting solids long distances from a source of GOOD aerobic compost can be
expensive.  Compost tea
requires very little compost (15 - 20 pounds for make 500 gallons of tea in 24
hours) to make large amounts
of tea, and since the organisms grow (yes, fungi grow in the tea, if you make
conditions right).   Fungi are
strict aerobes, and so if tea becomes anaerobic at all, fungi will be attacked
and killed by the anaerobic
bacteria.

What is the foliar foodweb? The foliar foodweb is the set of organisms, similar
to the soil foodweb, on the
foliage of your plant.  The plant leaf, blossoms, stems, etc. release exudates,
just like the roots, to feed
these organisms and keep a protective layer around the plant so disease can’t
attack, and nutrients will be
cycled correctly for the plant.

Improving the activity of the biology on leaf surfaces increases the carbon
dioxide in the leaf surface
layer, which increases the length of time the plant stomates are open.  This
increases the nutrient uptake
that can occur.  Of course, in drought conditions, this doesn’t happen.

Compost tea replaces these organisms in the soil and on the foliage.  Active
organisms are required in tea so
they will stick to leaf, branch, blossom and bark surfaces.

What is Compost Tea? A water extract of aerobic compost (can be thermal, vermi-
or static produced) that
contains the soluble nutrients, the bacteria, fungi, protozoa, and nematodes
which were in the compost.

All compost teas should be aerobic when applied or you run the risk of killing
the plant parts to which the
tea is applied.  Anaerobic tea or compost will contain alcohol, phenols, organic
acids, and proteins that are
very toxic to plant tissue.

It is necessary to have the ENTIRE foodweb to gain ALL the potential benefits of
compost tea.

Bacteria in tea: ·      Compete with and inhibit a few disease-causing organisms
·      Cover surfaces so
some of the bad guys can’t find food, can’t infect the plant surfaces, and
uptake of micronutrients is
enhanced ·      Certain bacterial species are especially desirable in certain
conditions because they
decompose pesticides, sequester heavy metals, help fungi remove thatch, improve
mycorrhizal colonization,
repel insects. ·        Certain bacterial species produce materials that kill
specific species of root-
feeding nematodes ·     Retain nutrients in their biomass ·     Improve soil
structure by building micro-
aggregates

Fungi in tea: · Compete with and inhibit most fungal disease-causing organisms ·
        Cover surfaces so
most of the bad guys can’t find food, can’t infect the plant surfaces, and
uptake of micronutrients is
enhanced ·      Certain fungal species are especially desirable since they
attack maggots, aphids, plant-
sucking insects, caterpillars, potato beetle, mosquito larvae, etc. ·   Retain
nutrients in their biomass ·
Improve soil structure by building macro-aggregates

Protozoa in tea: ·      Consume bacteria and some fungi ·       Indicate
anaerobic conditions when ciliate
numbers are high ·      Release nitrogen, phosphorus, sulfur and other nutrients
in plant-available forms

Nematodes in tea: ·     Consume bacteria, fungi, protozoa and other nematodes. ·
        Certain species of
nematodes are especially desirable, since they carry bacteria that attack wire
worm, root-grubs, maggots,
cranefly larvae, weevil larvae. ·       Other nematodes specifically prefer to
consume root-feeding nematodes"

.

From - Wed Oct 23 14:06:28 2002
X-UIDL: 322731246
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A3E3CD401CC; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 12:52:51 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A3E98400240; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 12:52:57 -0400
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNSD7L9M; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 12:57:28 -0400
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Wed Oct 23 12:52:13 2002 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 12985 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Wed, 23 Oct 2002 12:52:26 -0400
Received: from 213.165.64.20 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 12:52:25 -0400
Received: (qmail 6758 invoked by uid 0); 23 Oct 2002 16:52:07 -0000
Received: from dup-200-64-189-74.prodigy.net.mx (HELO dir-gral) (200.64.189.74)
          by mail.gmx.net (mp006-rz3) with SMTP; 23 Oct 2002 16:52:07 -0000
X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.61) Personal
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
References: <20021023142129.33950.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID:  <821000350046.20021023115134@gmx.net>
Date:         Wed, 23 Oct 2002 11:51:34 -0600
Reply-To:     Douglas Hinds <cedecor@gmx.net>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Douglas Hinds <cedecor@GMX.NET>
Organization: CeDeCoR, A. C.
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its head)
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <20021023142129.33950.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com>
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731246
Status: U

Hi Dale & other saneters following this interesting thread,

Dale responded to my saying:

>> If life is a contextual event, that makes sense. Take something out
>> of context and you lose it. It's like breaking a seed apart. If you
>> take it out of context,

Adding to that: A seed is an organism or the beginning of one. As
such, it's parts are integrated in relation to single goal - that of
being a plant. The function of each part converges with the rest so
that in the context of soil, nutrients, humidity & sunlight etc. the
plant will grow. Breaking a seed apart prevents it from performing
the function it was created for in the context mentioned above.

>> you not only disconnect it from it's source of sustenance, you
>> disconnect it from it's meaning for living.

DW> The essence of evolution is the taking of things out of context and
DW> creation of new contexts.  This is how agriculture evolved.

Your "taking of things out of context and creation of new contexts"
sounds a lot like my "extending the contextual envelope" analogy.
In order to determine which is a more accurate description of a
given situation, answering the following questions may be helpful:

To what extent is the new context an extension of the old, to what
extent is it different, and what is the significance inherent to or
implied by those similarities and differences?

DW> As a parallel, this is how harvester ants evolved. I am sure you
DW> see them all the time in your region, clipping leaves and
DW> carrying them down into their nest,

That is correct. They are highly destructive. They'll strip a tree
of every leaf, if you let them. I've depopulated entire colonies
however by bathing and dancing with (on) them. It takes them a
while to regenerate but it's a lot of work.

DW> where they inoculate them with a unique fungal monoculture to
DW> cultivate for food.

They frequently harvest a crop planted by someone else to create
their own. If we analyze that we see that the relationship they
sustain with the providing plant (i.e. a peach tree) is highly
unsustainable. In relation to our own efforts (i.e. planting the
peach tree for other ends) the leaf cutting ants are a pest, period.

DW> Both the ants and the fungus have mutually taken each other out
DW> of old contexts, and created a life-system, a new context.

Dale, I see your point. My point is that I don't identify or
sympathize with leaf cutting ants or their way of doing things. The
relationships sustained with those they deal with is conflictive to
an unnecessary and unwarranted degree - and that's why we kill them.
(That's the complementary action they provoke).

DW> The reason that human innovation is seen as unnatural is that
DW> deep down, people [some people - DH] view humans as outside
DW> nature. But humans really are part of nature.

Of course.

>> Cultivated crops consist of only those plants found in nature
>> that provide most for human survival or use. (Since GM crops are not
>> found in nature, those abominations would be discussed further here
>> at this time).

>> Agriculture recreates and extends select natural environments that
>> are suitable for plant growth.

DW> This is entirely analogous to what the compost-tea-brewers (and indeed
DW> compost-makers, beer-makers, bakers, etc.) are doing.  They are taking
DW> naturally occuring microbial processes and placing them in new
DW> "artifical" contexts suitable for the growth of a very small number of
DW> species.

We agree that a multiplicity of contexts are possible, but not all
are compatible. I suggested that adding sugar and molasses to
compost teas may not be compatible (appropriate) in relation to
the standards governing organic agriculture since last Monday.
I also suggest why.

Context and environment can be considered interchangeable terms here
and contexts can overlap. Looking at compost itself as en
environment (for microorganisms) compatible with other environments
(such as organic food production) I also suggested that the
environmental change resulting from the addition of sugar and
molasses to compost teas may not be compatible with the growth of
microorganisms that predominate in compost (as per the quote by
Elaine Ingham contained in the post I responded to), if the dominant
presence of those microorganisms is due to the capability of
forming symbiotic and synergetic relationship with each other and
the plant (crop) itself they possess.

IOW, it seemed to me that the addition of sugar and molasses to
compost teas may not be compatible with the GOALS of organic
agriculture (soil improvement, as well as crop production), since
NUMBERS of microorganism is less significant than QUALITY of
microorganisms, if microorganisms that engage in and are capable of
forming symbiotic and synergetic relationship with each other and
the plant (crop) itself are indeed what we want. (I sure do).

>> Sugars are not found in nature in an isolated form (honey may well
>> come closest, but the natural context for honey is not in the soil.
>> By the same token, molasses too is found in a contained context and
>> in any case, is derived from boiling the sap contained within
>> another organism which on decomposing naturally, yields a very
>> different composition.

DW> This is all a matter of scale.  All these things are found in nature,
DW> but at different concentrations and spatial scales.  Just as cropping
DW> systems provide a rich environment for the culture of a few off-beat
DW> plant species,

And often add to the presence of plant pests.

DW> microbial processing grows a few species of fungi or bacteria to
DW> accomplish certain goals (like making a drug, leavening bread,
DW> or controlling a plant disease.

Which is not to say that adding sugar &/or molasses to compost teas
will provide results that we could define as good. I suggest we
ground our terms in specific examples (i.e. leaf cutting ants or
peach trees etc.).

>> In view of the above, the use of sugar and molasses in compost teas
>> is both too artificial and too out of context for organic
>> agriculture AND for successfully promoting the growth of the kind of
>> compatible and complementary soil microorganism populations that
>> Lawrence, Dale, Elaine Ingham and others refer to.

DW> I think it is unproductive to be dogmatic about such things.

Dale, there's no dogma here. The only dogma is the need to define
goals and define the results obtains from determined practices and
try to identify or account for the cause, to define the principles
involved.

DW> People develop methods to get the job done (just like harvester
DW> ants).

Which are pests, by my criteria.

DW> Some of these compost-tea methods may be very useful.

Useful for what purpose? MY purpose here is to emphasize the need
for defining goals and determining whether those goals have been
fulfilled in the best possible way.

DW> Things that seem "unnatural", eventually are perceived as
DW> "natural" when your system has evolved to fill the niche. In
DW> other words, the merits and costs of some new technology have to
DW> be judged on a basis other than "naturalness" IMO. "Natural" is
DW> just too slippery a word.

I maintain that the "nature" of different ways of dealing with the
"nature" you refer to (a general term) can and should be defined, in
terms of the objective stated, results obtained and means employed.

>> I suspect that the symbiotic and synergic interrelationships between
>> those microorganisms and the soil biosphere they jointly create is
>> much more significant than sheer (and possibly disconnected) numbers
>> of organisms as an indicator of soil fertility.

DW> But we are really talking about the leaf surface of a particular crop
DW> for a short time, a small portion of time and space.  If a grower can
DW> control a devastating disease using a highly "artificial" compost tea,
DW> why not do it?  Unless the practice can be shown to be dangerous in
DW> some way.

Agreed. But this needs to be researched and defined. And that is one
of the areas in which you have specific capabilities. All I have
stated in this thread are postulations of principle. Now we need to
examine and apply them to specific applications. (I do have some in
mind that jive with what Lawrence and others posted, relating to
phyto-hormones and antibiotic production by beneficial bacteria and
fungus, among other soil microorganisms - I don't have time to dig
them out at the moment though. I will later).

>> IOW, compatible and complementary relationships (compatible and
>> complementary with each other and with our own needs and
>> capabilities) are what count on this planet, rather diverse but
>> competing numbers of species.

DW> Words like "compatible" and "complementary" are very relative and
DW> scale-sensitive.

They been defined in specific instances such as those described by
Elaine Ingham that Lawrence quoted. Please don't infer that I have
no specific instance in mind, just because I don't cite one. I'd
rather you asked for an example rather than claim I am generalizing.
The words themselves have an accepted meaning. Rather than reject
the use of them, we need to refer to specific situations in order
tot determine whether or not we agree regarding a given, specific
application of the terms.

DW> In the context of human evolution, your statement could be taken
DW> to negate all of agriculture, a recent and environmentally
DW> destructive innovation.

At this point in time, human beings are without-a-doubt the most
destructive pest the planet has ever known, and at this point in
time, the planet would be much better off if human beings were
removed from it. However, human beings are not without a still
unrealized potential (on a planetary scale) to do good, and many on
this list are probably doing just that to the extent they can at
present.

>> The above may well contain a lesson for the internal working of
>> human society, as well.

DW> Douglas, I really think we agree on a lot of underlying values.  I
DW> agree we need more complementarity and working together in human
DW> society.

Definitely. I see no conflict in our positions. On the contrary, we
all have much to gain by working with and learning from each other.

Douglas

BTW: by putting two hyphens and a space then hitting <enter> after
your signature, the yahoo.com propaganda won't appear on a reply to
your letter (like this):

--

.

From - Wed Oct 23 15:18:35 2002
X-UIDL: 322731265
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AC3D3D90036; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:36:45 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AC431A370272; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:36:51 -0400
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNSD7RFD; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:41:07 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 13068 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:36:11 -0400
Received: from 205.158.62.78 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:36:11 -0400
Received: (qmail 17454 invoked from network); 23 Oct 2002 18:35:57 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO jeffu9jv0ylyde)
          (jeff:gardener.com?iname.com@209.112.209.169) by
          205-158-62-78.outblaze.com with SMTP; 23 Oct 2002 18:35:57 -0000
References: <20021023142129.33950.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com> 
            <821000350046.20021023115134@gmx.net>
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106
Message-ID:  <003d01c27ac3$3a4691f0$9865fea9@jeffu9jv0ylyde>
Date:         Wed, 23 Oct 2002 10:37:22 -0800
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Jeff Lowenfels <jeff@GARDENER.COM>
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas (was: NOSB loses its head)
Comments: To: Douglas Hinds <cedecor@gmx.net>
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731265
Status: U

It is great how this thing has ranged, but the issue is whether using sugars
to increase bacterial biomass in compost teas is inconsistent with Organic
methods. Adding beneficial bacteria and fungi, protozoa and in some cases
nematodes to the soil surely has to be considered within the scope as
Organic.    It is exactly analogous to putting mulch down or compost to a
lesser degree.

The only issue is does it cause E. coli to grow...... a conclusion the NOSB
reached as a result of what many of us believe were flawed studies based on
personal agendas.... there were supposed two, not reported and not peer
reviewed.

Again, adding fungi, bacteria and protozoa is clearly organic. It is what we
all do when we mulch and apply compost. THE  ISSUE IS E COLI AND BAD
SCIENCE. AND NOT IF SUGARS ARE FOUND IN NATURE.....

     Jeff L

.

From - Thu Oct 24 19:28:49 2002
X-UIDL: 322731339
X-Mozilla-Status: 1013
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AF375EC60066; Thu, 24 Oct 2002 19:16:07 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AF321BE90278; Thu, 24 Oct 2002 19:16:02 -0400
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNSD9JQP; Thu, 24 Oct 2002 19:15:29 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 14758 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Thu, 24 Oct 2002 19:15:41 -0400
Received: from 152.163.225.98 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Thu, 24 Oct 2002 19:05:41 -0400
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-r02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id
          d.15e.162a6691 (30950) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Thu, 24 Oct
          2002 19:05:21 -0400 (EDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="part1_15e.162a6691.2ae9d6b0_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows AU sub 10503
Message-ID:  <15e.162a6691.2ae9d6b0@aol.com>
Date:         Thu, 24 Oct 2002 19:05:20 EDT
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Compost Tea
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731339
Status: U

--part1_15e.162a6691.2ae9d6b0_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

There have been questions about the National Organic Program regs on compost
tea, so let me offer some perspective.

The National Organics Standard Board appointed the Compost Task Force to
write the regs on compost.  The task force was also given the task of writing
the compost tea regulations.

Apparently, the Compost Task Force chairperson, Eric Sideman, called two
people, Wil Brinton, and Pat Milner, and on the basis of their opinions,
wrote the regs on compost tea.  Initially, the recommendation said that
sugar, molasses, barley malt and soluble carbon materials could not be used
in compost tea, because E. coli would grow if these materials were in the
tea.

Why was this reg put together?  Where did that come from?  Is it meaningful?


First of all, who are Wil Brinton and Pat Milner?  Wil had given up on 3-week
anaerobic compost teas  because he could never get rid of the E. coli.  Pat
Milner has never made compost tea, that I am aware, but had funded two
studies on compost tea.  The studies were performed at the USDA lab in
Albany, CA by a student of Dr. Subbarao's,  whose background is in the
pharmaceutical industry, and the second study was done by BBC Labs, run by
Ms. Vicki Bess, who has a Master's degree in microbiology.  Neither has
experience with 24-hour compost tea.

Dr. Subbarao's student, Brian Duffy, took E. coli-containing organic matter
(compost can't have E. coli under the USDA NOP regs, so it wasn't finished
compost.  And according to the source of the "pre-compost material", it
wasn't finished compost).  The E. coli-containing material was placed in
flasks, the flasks sealed and incubated for 24 hours.  E. coli was detected
in the material they sprayed on plants the following days.

This study has nothing to do with compost tea.  No compost tea maker is
sealed shut.  No one makes tea that way.  There is absolutely no evidence
here that aerobic compost tea could cause a problem.  This was a study that
was a waste of tax-payers' money.

BBC Labs took the same E. coli containing material, put it in a Growing
Solutions machine that always goes anaerobic in the basket during the tea
making process, added sugars, molasses, and barley malt, and found E. coli
growing in the 24 hour brew.

First, the "compost" contained E. coli.  Second, this particular tea machine
always goes anaerobic in the basket, and thus sets the stage for the growth
of E. coli, because the E. coli can out-compete the aerobic, beneficial
organisms when oxygen is low.  Third, the addition of sugar, molasses, barley
malt probably got the bacteria growing so rapidly that they used up oxygen
which helped the E. coli out-compete other organisms.

The paper published by BBC Labs in Biocycle (not a peer-reviewed journal) had
data on temperature and oxygen.  The temperatures cited ranged from 21 to 27
C.  The oxygen concentrations reported by Ms. Bess were between 10.1 to 10.9
mg oxygen per liter.

It is NOT POSSIBLE to have these levels of oxygen in water at the
temperatures cited.  Consider too that the elevation of Tempe, Arizona means
the oxygen concentration is even more impossible.  Check the maximum
concentration of oxygen in water on the US Geological Survey website.   These
concentrations are NOT POSSIBLE at these temperatures and elevations.  Unless
the air was pressurized, and there is no mention of that in the paper.  Water
holds less oxygen as temperature, or elevation, increase.

I contend that Ms. Bess did not in fact measure oxygen in the tea brew that
BBC Labs reported on.  The oxygen data were probably from work done by the
manufacturer, in Oregon, in the winter, at basically sea level.  The oxygen
data fit Oregon winter conditions.

There are no data to support Bess' contention that the tea stayed aerobic
through the whole brew cycle.  But there's no way to know, actually, because
they could not have measured the oxygen on the tea run where E. coli
occurred.

Thus, the "data" on which the Compost Task Force based their recommendation
were flawed.  With or without sugar, molasses or soluble carbon materials,
there was no evidence that E. coli would occur in tea.  All our data indicate
that as long as tea is kept aerobic and numbers of bacteria and fungi are
high and actively growing, no E. coli will be detected, or only at very low
levels.  All tea machines that get good fungal growth must remain aerobic.

I have been told that Vicki Bess says that the Growing Solutions tea maker
"super-saturates" the water with oxygen.  If that was true, then E. coli
would not have been detected, because E.coli cannot withstand highly
oxidizing conditions.   In fact, no one I know who owns the Growing Solutions
tea maker has obtained the high oxygen concentrations that the manufacturer
shows on the web site.

There's a serious discrepancy here.  Until someone else can repeat the same
results, i.e., show the tea maker stayed aerobic through the tea brew, and E.
coli was still in high numbers at the end of the brew, this study has to be
viewed as not scientifically sound.

Ms .Bess says that she has data showing that E. coli grows in aerobic
conditions.  E. coli can grow in aerobic conditions in the LAB, where we grow
the organism in very specific conditions that allow E. coli to grow in
aerobic conditions.  If there are a reasonable number of aerobic organisms
present, E. coli will be out-competed for food and space.  Protozoa in the
tea will consume E. coli.  In aerobic conditions, with high numbers of
competitors, predators and inhibitory compounds produced, E. coli does not
survive.

If E. coli did grow in aerated conditions found in sewage treatment plants,
E. coli would be everywhere, on everything.  But it is not, so clearly,
aerobic conditions, with lots of competitive, inhibitory and consuming
organisms present, will take out the E. coli.

Why do we get concerned about E. coli?  Because if E. coli is present, it
means there is contamination by fecal material where sooner or later there
will be a human pathogen present, and then we have disease.  So, E. coli is
an indicator of a problem, not something to go nuts about.  There's a
problem, work to fix it.

Pathogenic E. coli is not likely to occur if healthy animals are making the
manure.  It is much more reasonable to make a regulation about the kind of
manure that can be used, that testing of the compost has to be done to
document no E. coli, or that the tea brew has to stay fully aerobic so E.
coli is taken out than say all compost tea is dangerous.

Do we have data showing that E. coli does not survive in aerobic conditions?
Yes.  We submitted that data to several people who were at the NOSB meeting.
Did they present that data?  Not that I'm aware.

A week before the NOSB meeting, Wil Brinton sent an e-mail to the
compost_tea@yahoogroups.com list serve.  He basically told us about the deal
he had tried to make to keep compost tea in the NOP rules.  The ruling about
sugars came from him, apparently.  If that rule had been adopted, we would
not have been able to put compost in the compost tea, because compost
contains soluble carbon materials.

So, it was a non-choice.  That poorly written, not-supported-by-the-data
recommendation had to be removed.  But what was it replaced by?

Wil Brinton apparently decided that compost and worm compost tea cannot be
used on foodstuffs because of the possible danger that E. coli may be
present.  But there is no evidence to say there is a danger with properly
made compost tea.  All they had to put in a regulation was that compost tea
made from compost without E. coli present in the compost was acceptable.  If
made with E. coli-containing materials, the tea had to be kept aerated, and
have plenty of competing bacteria, fungi and protozoa.  We have documented
the reduction in E. coli, and thus in any human pathogen, in properly made
compost tea.

For the NOSB to accept a recommendation based on incorrect studies, studies
to peer-reviewed, not published in any scientifically peer-reviewed journal,
using only one poorly designed tea machine, or sealed glass flasks, is just
unbelievable.   The data on sugars causing E. coli to grow in aerated tea is
silly.  The data in the paper clearly show that the oxygen data are not
correct.  It is very likely that the tea did not stay aerobic.

We have repeated a number of studies showing that E. coli does not survive in
aerated tea with adequate competitive life.   Starting with "composted"
manure with an average number of 44,000 E. coli per gram of manure, the E.
coli present at the end of an incubation with molasses and kelp in the brew,
was 2.7 E. coli per ml of tea.

This is less than E. coli levels allowed in irrigation water, and irrigation
can be done up to the time you pick your crop.  Why is organic agriculture
being held to a higher standard than conventional crops?

The development process for National Organic Program regulations has been
poor.   The people appointed to write the recommendations did not do their
jobs in a number of cases.  A conversation with two people who don't have
expertise on 24 hour compost tea wrote the regulations?  The Compost Task
Force should have researched the conditions that allow E. coli to grow, and
should have known that anaerobic, or reduced oxygen conditions, are required
for E. coli to grow and survive.  Aeration result in the death of E. coli.
High oxygen concentrations kill E. coli.  Talk to sewage treatment people.

We were almost saddled with a really stupid regulation about no sugar in tea.
 Then instead of doing their job once the first objection to the lack of
science forced them to rescind the recommendation, they wrote a regulation
that compost tea can't be used because of the fear of E. coli.

I can put manure in coffee makers, and make a brown liquid that looks like
coffee.  Is anyone suggesting that coffee makers should be dis-allowed
because someone could be stupid and put the wrong stuff in a coffee maker?

Of course not.  The regulations should be written to state the conditions
that allow safe compost tea to be made.  Aerobic through the whole brew
cycle.  Lots of good aerobic bacteria, fungi and protozoa growing to compete
with, inhibit and consume the E. coli.
That gets rid of the E. coli and human pathogens.

If there is no E. coli in the starting materials, then why say there's a
danger of E. coli.  At least compost tea made with non-manure materials
should have been allowed.

But no, no tea at all can be used.

Anyone else feel like there's a hidden agenda here?

Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
Director of Research, Soil Foodweb New York
President, Soil Foodweb Institute, Lismore, Australia
Director of Quality Assurance, Soil Foodweb Europe, The Netherlands

--part1_15e.162a6691.2ae9d6b0_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=4 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">There have been questions about the National Organic Program regs on compost tea, so let me offer some perspective.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
The National Organics Standard Board appointed the Compost Task Force to write the regs on compost.&nbsp; The task force was also given the task of writing the compost tea regulations.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Apparently, the Compost Task Force chairperson, Eric Sideman, called two people, Wil Brinton, and Pat Milner, and on the basis of their opinions, wrote the regs on compost tea.&nbsp; Initially, the recommendation said that sugar, molasses, barley malt and soluble carbon materials could not be used in compost tea, because E. coli would grow if these materials were in the tea. <BR>
<BR>
Why was this reg put together?&nbsp; Where did that come from?&nbsp; Is it meaningful?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
First of all, who are Wil Brinton and Pat Milner?&nbsp; Wil had given up on 3-week anaerobic compost teas&nbsp; because he could never get rid of the E. coli.&nbsp; Pat Milner has never made compost tea, that I am aware, but had funded two studies on compost tea.&nbsp; The studies were performed at the USDA lab in Albany, CA by a student of Dr. Subbarao's,&nbsp; whose background is in the pharmaceutical industry, and the second study was done by BBC Labs, run by Ms. Vicki Bess, who has a Master's degree in microbiology.&nbsp; Neither has experience with 24-hour compost tea. <BR>
<BR>
Dr. Subbarao's student, Brian Duffy, took E. coli-containing organic matter (compost can't have E. coli under the USDA NOP regs, so it wasn't finished compost.&nbsp; And according to the source of the "pre-compost material", it wasn't finished compost).&nbsp; The E. coli-containing material was placed in flasks, the flasks sealed and incubated for 24 hours.&nbsp; E. coli was detected in the material they sprayed on plants the following days.<BR>
<BR>
This study has nothing to do with compost tea.&nbsp; No compost tea maker is sealed shut.&nbsp; No one makes tea that way.&nbsp; There is absolutely no evidence here that aerobic compost tea could cause a problem.&nbsp; This was a study that was a waste of tax-payers' money.<BR>
<BR>
BBC Labs took the same E. coli containing material, put it in a Growing Solutions machine that always goes anaerobic in the basket during the tea making process, added sugars, molasses, and barley malt, and found E. coli growing in the 24 hour brew.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
First, the "compost" contained E. coli.&nbsp; Second, this particular tea machine always goes anaerobic in the basket, and thus sets the stage for the growth of E. coli, because the E. coli can out-compete the aerobic, beneficial organisms when oxygen is low.&nbsp; Third, the addition of sugar, molasses, barley malt probably got the bacteria growing so rapidly that they used up oxygen which helped the E. coli out-compete other organisms.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
The paper published by BBC Labs in Biocycle (not a peer-reviewed journal) had data on temperature and oxygen.&nbsp; The temperatures cited ranged from 21 to 27 C.&nbsp; The oxygen concentrations reported by Ms. Bess were between 10.1 to 10.9 mg oxygen per liter.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
It is NOT POSSIBLE to have these levels of oxygen in water at the temperatures cited.&nbsp; Consider too that the elevation of Tempe, Arizona means the oxygen concentration is even more impossible.&nbsp; Check the maximum concentration of oxygen in water on the US Geological Survey website.&nbsp;&nbsp; These concentrations are NOT POSSIBLE at these temperatures and elevations.&nbsp; Unless the air was pressurized, and there is no mention of that in the paper.&nbsp; Water holds less oxygen as temperature, or elevation, increase.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
I contend that Ms. Bess did not in fact measure oxygen in the tea brew that BBC Labs reported on.&nbsp; The oxygen data were probably from work done by the manufacturer, in Oregon, in the winter, at basically sea level.&nbsp; The oxygen data fit Oregon winter conditions.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
There are no data to support Bess' contention that the tea stayed aerobic through the whole brew cycle.&nbsp; But there's no way to know, actually, because they could not have measured the oxygen on the tea run where E. coli occurred.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Thus, the "data" on which the Compost Task Force based their recommendation were flawed.&nbsp; With or without sugar, molasses or soluble carbon materials, there was no evidence that E. coli would occur in tea.&nbsp; All our data indicate that as long as tea is kept aerobic and numbers of bacteria and fungi are high and actively growing, no E. coli will be detected, or only at very low levels.&nbsp; All tea machines that get good fungal growth must remain aerobic.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
I have been told that Vicki Bess says that the Growing Solutions tea maker "super-saturates" the water with oxygen.&nbsp; If that was true, then E. coli would not have been detected, because E.coli cannot withstand highly oxidizing conditions.&nbsp;&nbsp; In fact, no one I know who owns the Growing Solutions tea maker has obtained the high oxygen concentrations that the manufacturer shows on the web site.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
There's a serious discrepancy here.&nbsp; Until someone else can repeat the same results, i.e., show the tea maker stayed aerobic through the tea brew, and E. coli was still in high numbers at the end of the brew, this study has to be viewed as not scientifically sound.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Ms .Bess says that she has data showing that E. coli grows in aerobic conditions.&nbsp; E. coli can grow in aerobic conditions in the LAB, where we grow the organism in very specific conditions that allow E. coli to grow in aerobic conditions.&nbsp; If there are a reasonable number of aerobic organisms present, E. coli will be out-competed for food and space.&nbsp; Protozoa in the tea will consume E. coli.&nbsp; In aerobic conditions, with high numbers of competitors, predators and inhibitory compounds produced, E. coli does not survive. <BR>
<BR>
If E. coli did grow in aerated conditions found in sewage treatment plants, E. coli would be everywhere, on everything.&nbsp; But it is not, so clearly, aerobic conditions, with lots of competitive, inhibitory and consuming organisms present, will take out the E. coli.<BR>
<BR>
Why do we get concerned about E. coli?&nbsp; Because if E. coli is present, it means there is contamination by fecal material where sooner or later there will be a human pathogen present, and then we have disease.&nbsp; So, E. coli is an indicator of a problem, not something to go nuts about.&nbsp; There's a problem, work to fix it.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Pathogenic E. coli is not likely to occur if healthy animals are making the manure.&nbsp; It is much more reasonable to make a regulation about the kind of manure that can be used, that testing of the compost has to be done to document no E. coli, or that the tea brew has to stay fully aerobic so E. coli is taken out than say all compost tea is dangerous.<BR>
<BR>
Do we have data showing that E. coli does not survive in aerobic conditions?&nbsp; Yes.&nbsp; We submitted that data to several people who were at the NOSB meeting.&nbsp; Did they present that data?&nbsp; Not that I'm aware.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
A week before the NOSB meeting, Wil Brinton sent an e-mail to the compost_tea@yahoogroups.com list serve.&nbsp; He basically told us about the deal he had tried to make to keep compost tea in the NOP rules.&nbsp; The ruling about sugars came from him, apparently.&nbsp; If that rule had been adopted, we would not have been able to put compost in the compost tea, because compost contains soluble carbon materials.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
So, it was a non-choice.&nbsp; That poorly written, not-supported-by-the-data recommendation had to be removed.&nbsp; But what was it replaced by?<BR>
<BR>
Wil Brinton apparently decided that compost and worm compost tea cannot be used on foodstuffs because of the possible danger that E. coli may be present.&nbsp; But there is no evidence to say there is a danger with properly made compost tea.&nbsp; All they had to put in a regulation was that compost tea made from compost without E. coli present in the compost was acceptable.&nbsp; If made with E. coli-containing materials, the tea had to be kept aerated, and have plenty of competing bacteria, fungi and protozoa.&nbsp; We have documented the reduction in E. coli, and thus in any human pathogen, in properly made compost tea.<BR>
<BR>
For the NOSB to accept a recommendation based on incorrect studies, studies to peer-reviewed, not published in any scientifically peer-reviewed journal, using only one poorly designed tea machine, or sealed glass flasks, is just unbelievable.&nbsp;&nbsp; The data on sugars causing E. coli to grow in aerated tea is silly.&nbsp; The data in the paper clearly show that the oxygen data are not correct.&nbsp; It is very likely that the tea did not stay aerobic.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
We have repeated a number of studies showing that E. coli does not survive in aerated tea with adequate competitive life.&nbsp;&nbsp; Starting with "composted" manure with an average number of 44,000 E. coli per gram of manure, the E. coli present at the end of an incubation with molasses and kelp in the brew, was 2.7 E. coli per ml of tea.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
This is less than E. coli levels allowed in irrigation water, and irrigation can be done up to the time you pick your crop.&nbsp; Why is organic agriculture being held to a higher standard than conventional crops?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
The development process for National Organic Program regulations has been poor.&nbsp;&nbsp; The people appointed to write the recommendations did not do their jobs in a number of cases.&nbsp; A conversation with two people who don't have expertise on 24 hour compost tea wrote the regulations?&nbsp; The Compost Task Force should have researched the conditions that allow E. coli to grow, and should have known that anaerobic, or reduced oxygen conditions, are required for E. coli to grow and survive.&nbsp; Aeration result in the death of E. coli.&nbsp; High oxygen concentrations kill E. coli.&nbsp; Talk to sewage treatment people.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
We were almost saddled with a really stupid regulation about no sugar in tea.&nbsp; Then instead of doing their job once the first objection to the lack of science forced them to rescind the recommendation, they wrote a regulation that compost tea can't be used because of the fear of E. coli.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
I can put manure in coffee makers, and make a brown liquid that looks like coffee.&nbsp; Is anyone suggesting that coffee makers should be dis-allowed because someone could be stupid and put the wrong stuff in a coffee maker?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Of course not.&nbsp; The regulations should be written to state the conditions that allow safe compost tea to be made.&nbsp; Aerobic through the whole brew cycle.&nbsp; Lots of good aerobic bacteria, fungi and protozoa growing to compete with, inhibit and consume the E. coli.&nbsp; <BR>
That gets rid of the E. coli and human pathogens.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
If there is no E. coli in the starting materials, then why say there's a danger of E. coli.&nbsp; At least compost tea made with non-manure materials should have been allowed.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
But no, no tea at all can be used.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Anyone else feel like there's a hidden agenda here?&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Elaine Ingham<BR>
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.<BR>
Director of Research, Soil Foodweb New York<BR>
President, Soil Foodweb Institute, Lismore, Australia<BR>
Director of Quality Assurance, Soil Foodweb Europe, The Netherlands</FONT></HTML>

--part1_15e.162a6691.2ae9d6b0_boundary--

.

From - Fri Oct 25 02:02:08 2002
X-UIDL: 322731360
X-Mozilla-Status: 1011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A537FAAF0030; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 01:23:03 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A53113500252; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 01:22:57 -0400
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNSD9P2Y; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 01:22:47 -0400
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Fri Oct 25 01:22:40 2002 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 15020 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Fri, 25 Oct 2002 01:22:50 -0400
Received: from 152.163.225.101 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f)
          with TCP; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 01:22:50 -0400
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-r05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id
          d.160.162a07cb (18707) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Fri, 25 Oct
          2002 01:22:32 -0400 (EDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="part1_160.162a07cb.2aea2f18_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows AU sub 10503
Message-ID:  <160.162a07cb.2aea2f18@aol.com>
Date:         Fri, 25 Oct 2002 01:22:32 EDT
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731360
Status: U

--part1_160.162a07cb.2aea2f18_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

For those of you interested in learning about the microbiology of compost
teas, you might want to read the Compost Tea Brewing Manual, from Soil
Foodweb Inc. in Corvallis, OR.

With respect to organisms in tea, white sugar is rarely used, as it selects
for ess-than-wonderful species of bacteria.  Blackstrap molasses with no
sulfur, is more common, since it contains a much wider diversity of sugars,
along with a bit of fungal food.

Fish emulsion is a good food to grow some very diverse bacteria, and improves
several groups of quite beneficial bacteria.  But more important than these
additives are the soluble materials that come out of the compost.  They
enhance the growth of quite a few beneficial species of bacteria.

We need to be careful that we are discussing AEROBIC compost, not putrefying
organic matter.  Species diversity is quite limited in putrefying materials.
And unfortunately, that is the material often mistaken for compost by
academics who don't know what real compost is.

By definition, composting is an aerobic process, producing microbial biomass,
some metabolic wastes and carbon dioxide.  Anaerobic digestion leaves a good
25 to 50% of the carbon present as organic matter - stinky, smelly organic
matter in many cases.

So, aerobic, ok?  If you have aerobic conditions, then you have MANY species
of microorganisms, up to as many as 25,000 unique DNA sequences from a gram
of compost.
We use morphological methods as well, and have come up with as many as 20,000
unique morphological types of bacteria and fungi in a gram of compost as
well.

Plate counts don't even get you close to that, because, as Joel Gruver points
out, most of the organisms in soil, or compost or compost tea can't grow on
lab media.  We don't know the mix of foods, temperatures and
moistures/humidities they need to grow.  Thus using plate count approaches is
nonsensical for assessing numbers or species diversity in environmental
samples.  To grow an organism for whom you know their growth conditions, then
that's a different story.  But we only know this for a few species of
bacteria and fungi.

Aeration in tea is needed to set up conditions that select against human
pathogens (which require reduced or low oxygen conditions), against plant
pathogens such a Pythium and Phytopthora, Rhizoctonia and Fusarium, which do
better in oxygen reduced conditions.  Reduced oxygen allows these diseases to
be competitive, while in fully aerobic conditions, they cannot out-compete or
inhibit anyone else growing.  That's why compacted soils have so many disease
problems.  The diseases are being helped out by the soil conditions.

The added foods help to grow some very beneficial species, at least species
that researchers tout as beneficial.  We see many fluorescent pseudomonads
which produce the desired growth hormones, bacillus species that result in
repulsion of many insect pests, nitrogen fixing bacterial species, and the
species of bacteria that are especially good at decomposing recalcitrant
carbon compounds, and pesticides enhanced as a result of the added foods.

Diversity of the kinds of carbon is important.

But simple occupation of space is critical too.  If there is no space for the
disease spore to reach the leaf surface, there is much less likelihood of
disease.  If the leaf surface is covered, then all the infection sites are
occupied.  If the leaf surface is covered, then all the foods the plant
produces are used by the protective layer, and there is no food to grow the
pathogen.  So, multiple mechanisms of control.  Let us not rely on just one.


All the species possible, completely covering the leaf, blossom, bark, etc.
We have some astounding results in protecting plants against disease, both on
the leaf surface and the root surface.

So, yes, teas work better with aeration (suppress and get rid of the disease
organisms), with the right foods (grow just the good guys), and with
nutrients.  But often the added nutrients are really for the plant.  As the
organisms grow on the leaf surface, they respire, and that elevated carbon
dioxide causes the stomates to open, and the nutrients move into the plant
more rapidly, for a longer time.  Some impressive greening up as a result.
Temperature is of course important, as is water, and other nutrients not
limiting, but given those being ok, plants can show marked improvements.

I hope this helps explain what is going on with 24 hour compost tea.  These
are not slimy, smelly 3-week brews but they are 24 hour, aerobic tea brews.
Cleaning the machine is extremely critical.  Control of the quality of the
tea maker is important.   Testing is necessary.  No human pathogens in the
compost!  Quality products in, quality out.

Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc, Corvallis OR
President, Soil Foodweb Institute, Lismore, Australia
Affiliate Faculty, Southern Cross University
Director of Research, Soil Foodweb New York
Director of Quality Assurance, Soil Foodweb Europe
(I was assistant and then associate professor at Oregon State University for
nearly 15 years, but last December decided to go full time with SFI.)

--part1_160.162a07cb.2aea2f18_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=4 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">For those of you interested in learning about the microbiology of compost teas, you might want to read the Compost Tea Brewing Manual, from Soil Foodweb Inc. in Corvallis, OR.<BR>
<BR>
With respect to organisms in tea, white sugar is rarely used, as it selects for ess-than-wonderful species of bacteria.&nbsp; Blackstrap molasses with no sulfur, is more common, since it contains a much wider diversity of sugars, along with a bit of fungal food.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Fish emulsion is a good food to grow some very diverse bacteria, and improves several groups of quite beneficial bacteria.&nbsp; But more important than these additives are the soluble materials that come out of the compost.&nbsp; They enhance the growth of quite a few beneficial species of bacteria. <BR>
<BR>
We need to be careful that we are discussing AEROBIC compost, not putrefying organic matter.&nbsp; Species diversity is quite limited in putrefying materials.&nbsp; And unfortunately, that is the material often mistaken for compost by academics who don't know what real compost is.<BR>
<BR>
By definition, composting is an aerobic process, producing microbial biomass, some metabolic wastes and carbon dioxide.&nbsp; Anaerobic digestion leaves a good 25 to 50% of the carbon present as organic matter - stinky, smelly organic matter in many cases..&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
So, aerobic, ok?&nbsp; If you have aerobic conditions, then you have MANY species of microorganisms, up to as many as 25,000 unique DNA sequences from a gram of compost.&nbsp; <BR>
We use morphological methods as well, and have come up with as many as 20,000 unique morphological types of bacteria and fungi in a gram of compost as well.<BR>
<BR>
Plate counts don't even get you close to that, because, as Joel Gruver points out, most of the organisms in soil, or compost or compost tea can't grow on lab media.&nbsp; We don't know the mix of foods, temperatures and moistures/humidities they need to grow.&nbsp; Thus using plate count approaches is nonsensical for assessing numbers or species diversity in environmental samples.&nbsp; To grow an organism for whom you know their growth conditions, then that's a different story.&nbsp; But we only know this for a few species of bacteria and fungi.<BR>
<BR>
Aeration in tea is needed to set up conditions that select against human pathogens (which require reduced or low oxygen conditions), against plant pathogens such a Pythium and Phytopthora, Rhizoctonia and Fusarium, which do better in oxygen reduced conditions.&nbsp; Reduced oxygen allows these diseases to be competitive, while in fully aerobic conditions, they cannot out-compete or inhibit anyone else growing.&nbsp; That's why compacted soils have so many disease problems.&nbsp; The diseases are being helped out by the soil conditions. <BR>
<BR>
The added foods help to grow some very beneficial species, at least species that researchers tout as beneficial.&nbsp; We see many fluorescent pseudomonads which produce the desired growth hormones, bacillus species that result in repulsion of many insect pests, nitrogen fixing bacterial species, and the species of bacteria that are especially good at decomposing recalcitrant carbon compounds, and pesticides enhanced as a result of the added foods.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Diversity of the kinds of carbon is important.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
But simple occupation of space is critical too.&nbsp; If there is no space for the disease spore to reach the leaf surface, there is much less likelihood of disease.&nbsp; If the leaf surface is covered, then all the infection sites are occupied.&nbsp; If the leaf surface is covered, then all the foods the plant produces are used by the protective layer, and there is no food to grow the pathogen.&nbsp; So, multiple mechanisms of control.&nbsp; Let us not rely on just one.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
All the species possible, completely covering the leaf, blossom, bark, etc.&nbsp; We have some astounding results in protecting plants against disease, both on the leaf surface and the root surface. <BR>
<BR>
So, yes, teas work better with aeration (suppress and get rid of the disease organisms), with the right foods (grow just the good guys), and with nutrients.&nbsp; But often the added nutrients are really for the plant.&nbsp; As the organisms grow on the leaf surface, they respire, and that elevated carbon dioxide causes the stomates to open, and the nutrients move into the plant more rapidly, for a longer time.&nbsp; Some impressive greening up as a result.&nbsp; Temperature is of course important, as is water, and other nutrients not limiting, but given those being ok, plants can show marked improvements.<BR>
<BR>
I hope this helps explain what is going on with 24 hour compost tea.&nbsp; These are not slimy, smelly 3-week brews but they are 24 hour, aerobic tea brews.&nbsp; Cleaning the machine is extremely critical.&nbsp; Control of the quality of the tea maker is important.&nbsp;&nbsp; Testing is necessary.&nbsp; No human pathogens in the compost!&nbsp; Quality products in, quality out.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Elaine Ingham<BR>
President, Soil Foodweb Inc, Corvallis OR<BR>
President, Soil Foodweb Institute, Lismore, Australia<BR>
Affiliate Faculty, Southern Cross University<BR>
Director of Research, Soil Foodweb New York<BR>
Director of Quality Assurance, Soil Foodweb Europe<BR>
(I was assistant and then associate professor at Oregon State University for nearly 15 years, but last December decided to go full time with SFI.)<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_160.162a07cb.2aea2f18_boundary--

.

From - Fri Oct 25 21:14:03 2002
X-UIDL: 322731416
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A7B1A37A0066; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 18:37:37 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A7ACF7A1003C; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 18:37:32 -0400
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNSD0R4R; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 18:37:27 -0400
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Fri Oct 25 18:37:22 2002 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 16176 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Fri, 25 Oct 2002 18:37:31 -0400
Received: from 64.12.136.161 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 18:37:31 -0400
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-m06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id
          d.99.2eada4f3 (4184) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Fri, 25 Oct
          2002 18:37:12 -0400 (EDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="part1_99.2eada4f3.2aeb2198_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows AU sub 10503
Message-ID:  <99.2eada4f3.2aeb2198@aol.com>
Date:         Fri, 25 Oct 2002 18:37:12 EDT
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Wild farming
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731416
Status: U

--part1_99.2eada4f3.2aeb2198_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

We work with thousands of acres of potato in Montana, Idaho, Washington and
Oregon, and have reduced costs from $240 per acre to $125 per acre, while
increasing yields from 5 to 20% (well, this year in some places yields were
100% higher, because the conventional potato fields were lost to Rhizoctonia,
while the sustainable fields made normal yields).  We usually improve storage
life as well.

We work with carrot growers, with wheat growers, grape growers, lettuce,
corn, turf, you name it, and reduce costs by reducing pesticide inputs and
fertilizer inputs.  We don't always improve yields, or the nutritional value
of the crop, but quite often that also occurs.  So, when you want to move
away from toxic chemical inputs, and still be successful, we'd be happy to
work with you.

Elaine Ingham
Soil Foodweb Inc.
www.soilfoodweb.com
541-752-5066

--part1_99.2eada4f3.2aeb2198_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=4 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">We work with thousands of acres of potato in Montana, Idaho, Washington and Oregon, and have reduced costs from $240 per acre to $125 per acre, while increasing yields from 5 to 20% (well, this year in some places yields were 100% higher, because the conventional potato fields were lost to Rhizoctonia, while the sustainable fields made normal yields).&nbsp; We usually improve storage life as well.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
We work with carrot growers, with wheat growers, grape growers, lettuce, corn, turf, you name it, and reduce costs by reducing pesticide inputs and fertilizer inputs.&nbsp; We don't always improve yields, or the nutritional value of the crop, but quite often that also occurs.&nbsp; So, when you want to move away from toxic chemical inputs, and still be successful, we'd be happy to work with you.<BR>
<BR>
Elaine Ingham<BR>
Soil Foodweb Inc.<BR>
www.soilfoodweb.com<BR>
541-752-5066</FONT></HTML>

--part1_99.2eada4f3.2aeb2198_boundary--

.

From - Sun Oct 27 18:33:00 2002
X-UIDL: 322731527
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A3C080D4009C; Sun, 27 Oct 2002 18:16:16 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A3BA32900228; Sun, 27 Oct 2002 18:16:10 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNS1ANB3; Sun, 27 Oct 2002 18:16:00 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 17017 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sun, 27 Oct 2002 18:16:07 -0500
Received: from 216.136.130.18 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Sun, 27 Oct 2002 18:16:07 -0400
Received: from [65.128.144.38] by web21202.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 27 Oct
          2002 15:15:51 PST
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID:  <20021027231551.38137.qmail@web21202.mail.yahoo.com>
Date:         Sun, 27 Oct 2002 15:15:51 -0800
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Dale Wilson <nosliwelad@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas
Comments: cc: Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <160.162a07cb.2aea2f18@aol.com>
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731527
Status: U

Elaine,

> If you have aerobic conditions, then you have MANY
> species of microorganisms, up to as many as 25,000 unique DNA
> sequences from a gram of compost.
> We use morphological methods as well, and have come up with as many
> as 20,000 unique morphological types of bacteria and fungi
> in a gram of compost as well.

> Plate counts don't even get you close to that, because, as Joel
> Gruver points out, most of the organisms in soil, or compost or
> compost tea can't grow on lab media.

But don't you think that after you leach into water, add molassas, and
aerate for a while you end up with a much simpler community?  Adding a
soluble carbon source in a liquid culture is akin to a lab medium.  I
don't mean to criticize the method, I just think it is simpler than
compost per se, and that plate counts might be a useful GC tool.

> The added foods help to grow some very beneficial species, at least
> species that researchers tout as beneficial.  We see many fluorescent
> pseudomonads which produce the desired growth hormones, bacillus
> species that result in repulsion of many insect pests, nitrogen
> fixing bacterial species...
> But simple occupation of space is critical too.  If there is no space
> for the disease spore to reach the leaf surface, there is much less
> likelihood of disease...
> I hope this helps explain what is going on with 24 hour compost tea

Sounds good!  If you had to guess, which species do you think are most
important in a good compost tea for disease control?  It might be
possible to add small amounts of something, like adjust the pH, SO2,
iron, or a bit of benzakonium chloride, to tip the tea ecology one way
or another.

Dale

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/

.

From - Sun Oct 27 19:15:44 2002
X-UIDL: 322731529
X-Mozilla-Status: 0013
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AFB2219B0066; Sun, 27 Oct 2002 19:07:14 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AFA92B2A025A; Sun, 27 Oct 2002 19:07:05 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNS1AN5T; Sun, 27 Oct 2002 19:06:55 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 17023 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sun, 27 Oct 2002 19:07:02 -0500
Received: from 205.188.157.35 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Sun, 27 Oct 2002 19:07:02 -0400
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-d03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id
          d.196.fb983bf (4004); Sun, 27 Oct 2002 19:06:45 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="part1_196.fb983bf.2aedd995_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows AU sub 10503
Message-ID:  <196.fb983bf.2aedd995@aol.com>
Date:         Sun, 27 Oct 2002 19:06:45 EST
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas
Comments: cc: info@soilfoodweb.com
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731529
Status: U

--part1_196.fb983bf.2aedd995_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi Dale -

> You wrote:
> But don't you think that after you leach into water, add molassas, and
> aerate for a while you end up with a much simpler community?  Adding a
> soluble carbon source in a liquid culture is akin to a lab medium.  I
> don't mean to criticize the method, I just think it is simpler than
> compost per se, and that plate counts might be a useful GC tool.
>

I have data on this.  We see that all the species in compost will be
extracted (it is not a leaching process in 24 hour compost tea) into the tea.
 If you have limited species diversity in the compost, you have limited
species diversity in the tea.  High diversity in the compost, high diversity
in the tea.

But not all the individuals in the compost get extracted into the tea.  So
diversity in the tea isn't the same as diversity in the compost, but species
richness is.

The food resources in the tea come from all the soluble nutrients and food
resources in the compost, and there's a huge complexity there, not just the
food resources you add, like a simple sugar.  You are merely selecting for a
group of highly beneficial bacteria or fungi by adding an additional food
resource.

That's why testing is necessary to determine which set of beneficial bacteria
and fungi are being enhanced by addition of any food resource.  But plate
counts don't even begin to give you those answers about numbers or diversity.


We did a comparison set of plate counts, and also did direct counts, and
morphological counts.  The plate counts gave 12 species of bacteria per gram
of soil.   Six different media were used.  A total of about 30 different
species on 6 different media.  The molecular approach suggested 25,000
species, morphological analysis using direct counts gave us 20,000 different
species (extrapolated from looking at 10 different fields and determining how
many new species were observed in each field).  The molecular approach is the
way to do this work, but it's much too expensive right now.

Plate counts?  Bio-log plates?  Sorry.  They don't even begin to get a handle
on what is in soil, or compost, or compost tea.

We have a series of tests, including enzyme testing, GC work, and specific
extractants that allow us to find whether the beneficial fungi and bacteria
we know how to culture are present in a sample, and in how great numbers.
We'll be offering that starting Nov 1 on the SFI website
(www.soilfoodweb.com)

The only difference between compost and compost tea is that the non-soluble
substrates start in the compost.  So, yes, the food resources in the tea are
lower than in compost, but every species in the compost is extracted into the
tea.

Do all those species survive in tea?  If you don't feed organisms the right
foods, they tend to go to sleep and then die.  No different than people.  So,
24 hour, aerobic compost tea adds the whole diversity of organisms back into
the soil, or onto the leaf surfaces.  And they have enough food during that
short time period to stay viable.

Addition of tea or compost to soil or leaf surfaces can be a huge benefit to
both places, especially if your soil or leaf surfaces have been negatively
impacted by pesticides or salts (better known as fertilizers).


> If you had to guess, which species do you think are most
> important in a good compost tea for disease control?  It might be
> possible to add small amounts of something, like adjust the pH, SO2,
> iron, or a bit of benzakonium chloride, to tip the tea ecology one way
> or another.
>
> Dale
>

We're looking at something like 25,000 unique bacterial DNA strands in a gram
of good aerobic, highly diverse plant organic matter compost.  We don't even
have names for well over 99% of these species.   They are just numbers on the
DNA sequence list.  What does each species do?  How do you culture them?
Which ones are the ones that plant exudates feed?

Too many questions to begin talking about which ones are actually the
important ones.  To some extent, right now, we just have to let the plant do
the choosing, because its exudates feed the beneficial organisms on the leaf,
or root, surfaces.

We can assay for the beneficial bacteria and fungi we know about, but how
much of the beneficial community do we  know nothing about?

And yet, we are missing many of the beneficial species we do know about in
our agricultural soils.  Soil scientists often tell me that the bacteria and
fungi just "return to the soil - rapidly".  But they don't.  The residues in
soil, the continued plowing, the lack of organic matter in ag soil, all
contribute to even the few beneficial species we know about not being in most
ag soils.

We need to put them back.  Compost and compost tea are excellent ways to do
that.  Commercial inocula of the beneficials are useful - inocula from
companies like Helena Chemical Co, Organica Biotech Inc, Agri-Energy, EM, and
so on.  They all help.

Do we need to tip the ecology one way or another?  Sure, but which way does
addition of SO2 push you?  Beneficial to the plants you want, or beneficial
to weeds?  We don't know.   There's some work to do.  We need to educate the
public about the possibilities.

Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.

--part1_196.fb983bf.2aedd995_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=4 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Hi Dale - <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">You wrote: <BR>
But don't you think that after you leach into water, add molassas, and<BR>
aerate for a while you end up with a much simpler community?&nbsp; Adding a<BR>
soluble carbon source in a liquid culture is akin to a lab medium.&nbsp; I<BR>
don't mean to criticize the method, I just think it is simpler than<BR>
compost per se, and that plate counts might be a useful GC tool.<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=4 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">I have data on this.&nbsp; We see that all the species in compost will be extracted (it is not a leaching process in 24 hour compost tea) into the tea.&nbsp; If you have limited species diversity in the compost, you have limited species diversity in the tea.&nbsp; High diversity in the compost, high diversity in the tea.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
But not all the individuals in the compost get extracted into the tea.&nbsp; So diversity in the tea isn't the same as diversity in the compost, but species richness is.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
The food resources in the tea come from all the soluble nutrients and food resources in the compost, and there's a huge complexity there, not just the food resources you add, like a simple sugar.&nbsp; You are merely selecting for a group of highly beneficial bacteria or fungi by adding an additional food resource.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
That's why testing is necessary to determine which set of beneficial bacteria and fungi are being enhanced by addition of any food resource.&nbsp; But plate counts don't even begin to give you those answers about numbers or diversity.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
We did a comparison set of plate counts, and also did direct counts, and morphological counts.&nbsp; The plate counts gave 12 species of bacteria per gram of soil.&nbsp;&nbsp; Six different media were used.&nbsp; A total of about 30 different species on 6 different media.&nbsp; The molecular approach suggested 25,000 species, morphological analysis using direct counts gave us 20,000 different species (extrapolated from looking at 10 different fields and determining how many new species were observed in each field).&nbsp; The molecular approach is the way to do this work, but it's much too expensive right now.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Plate counts?&nbsp; Bio-log plates?&nbsp; Sorry.&nbsp; They don't even begin to get a handle on what is in soil, or compost, or compost tea.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
We have a series of tests, including enzyme testing, GC work, and specific extractants that allow us to find whether the beneficial fungi and bacteria we know how to culture are present in a sample, and in how great numbers.&nbsp; We'll be offering that starting Nov 1 on the SFI website&nbsp; (www.soilfoodweb.com)&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
The only difference between compost and compost tea is that the non-soluble substrates start in the compost.&nbsp; So, yes, the food resources in the tea are lower than in compost, but every species in the compost is extracted into the tea. <BR>
<BR>
Do all those species survive in tea?&nbsp; If you don't feed organisms the right foods, they tend to go to sleep and then die.&nbsp; No different than people.&nbsp; So, 24 hour, aerobic compost tea adds the whole diversity of organisms back into the soil, or onto the leaf surfaces.&nbsp; And they have enough food during that short time period to stay viable.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Addition of tea or compost to soil or leaf surfaces can be a huge benefit to both places, especially if your soil or leaf surfaces have been negatively impacted by pesticides or salts (better known as fertilizers).&nbsp; <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">If you had to guess, which species do you think are most<BR>
important in a good compost tea for disease control?&nbsp; It might be<BR>
possible to add small amounts of something, like adjust the pH, SO2,<BR>
iron, or a bit of benzakonium chloride, to tip the tea ecology one way<BR>
or another.<BR>
<BR>
Dale<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=4 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
We're looking at something like 25,000 unique bacterial DNA strands in a gram of good aerobic, highly diverse plant organic matter compost.&nbsp; We don't even have names for well over 99% of these species.&nbsp;&nbsp; They are just numbers on the DNA sequence list.&nbsp; What does each species do?&nbsp; How do you culture them?&nbsp; Which ones are the ones that plant exudates feed?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Too many questions to begin talking about which ones are actually the important ones.&nbsp; To some extent, right now, we just have to let the plant do the choosing, because its exudates feed the beneficial organisms on the leaf, or root, surfaces.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
We can assay for the beneficial bacteria and fungi we know about, but how much of the beneficial community do we&nbsp; know nothing about?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
And yet, we are missing many of the beneficial species we do know about in our agricultural soils.&nbsp; Soil scientists often tell me that the bacteria and fungi just "return to the soil - rapidly".&nbsp; But they don't.&nbsp; The residues in soil, the continued plowing, the lack of organic matter in ag soil, all contribute to even the few beneficial species we know about not being in most ag soils.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
We need to put them back.&nbsp; Compost and compost tea are excellent ways to do that.&nbsp; Commercial inocula of the beneficials are useful - inocula from companies like Helena Chemical Co, Organica Biotech Inc, Agri-Energy, EM, and so on.&nbsp; They all help.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Do we need to tip the ecology one way or another?&nbsp; Sure, but which way does addition of SO2 push you?&nbsp; Beneficial to the plants you want, or beneficial to weeds?&nbsp; We don't know.&nbsp;&nbsp; There's some work to do.&nbsp; We need to educate the public about the possibilities.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Elaine Ingham<BR>
President, Soil Foodweb Inc. </FONT></HTML>

--part1_196.fb983bf.2aedd995_boundary--

.

From - Mon Oct 28 15:59:13 2002
X-UIDL: 322731583
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 04000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A3697B400A0; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 13:35:21 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A35529780208; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 13:35:01 -0500
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNS1BC62; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 13:34:04 -0500
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Mon Oct 28 13:33:46 2002 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 17479 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 28 Oct 2002 13:33:51 -0500
Received: from 209.42.192.250 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 13:33:51 -0400
Received: from intrex.net [209.42.230.69] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
          (SMTPD32-5.05) id A2DE1CD5028C; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 13:33:02 -0500
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1)
            Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <196.fb983bf.2aedd995@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID:  <3DBDAE9D.1030708@intrex.net>
Date:         Mon, 28 Oct 2002 13:39:41 -0800
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@INTREX.NET>
Organization: http://market-farming.com  --  Venaura Farm
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731583
Status: U

Is 24 hour compost tea efective in controlling fruit tree diseases (i.e.
fireblight, cedar apple rust, etc.)? Since it is cheap and easy to make
in large quantities one could cover an orchard easily with the appropriate spray
equipment or just set up an overhead sprinkler system and introduce the 24HCT
into the irrigation water.

--
L.F.London
lfl@intrex.net
http://market-farming.com
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/pcwiki/index.php/london

.

From - Mon Oct 28 15:59:19 2002
X-UIDL: 322731595
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A0939F380032; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 14:31:31 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A08E36DB0228; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 14:31:26 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNS1BG89; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 14:31:18 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 17548 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 28 Oct 2002 14:31:24 -0500
Received: from 205.188.157.37 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 14:31:24 -0400
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id
          d.7a.2f8f3543 (4552) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Mon, 28 Oct
          2002 14:30:58 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="part1_7a.2f8f3543.2aeeea72_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows AU sub 10503
Message-ID:  <7a.2f8f3543.2aeeea72@aol.com>
Date:         Mon, 28 Oct 2002 14:30:58 EST
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731595
Status: U

--part1_7a.2f8f3543.2aeeea72_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

We have been working with compost tea makers preventing disease such as apple
scab, leaf curl, anthracnose, and a number of foliar feeding insects.

We have done mildew control for a couple years in vineyards, this is a
scientific study, and we have one more year to go to finish up.  Then we'll
publish the results.  Been working well!

I can direct you to a number of orchard folks who are having good control, if
you want.  We need more replicated scientific studies in orchards in the US,
and I would dearly love to get some done.  The SARE grants are good places to
get some grower grants.

There are a number of researchers at Washington State University that tried
compost tea early on orchards, but they did not make decent tea.  They even
had the tea tested sometimes, but could never reach the quality control
standards we have shown are necessary.  But they still bad-mouth compost tea
as not working.  Sigh.  And these are scientists?

But there are much better machines to make compost tea out on the market now.


If I could work with you on documenting the benefits of compost tea, I would
love to talk!

Elaine Ingham
info@soilfoodweb.com

--part1_7a.2f8f3543.2aeeea72_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=4 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">We have been working with compost tea makers preventing disease such as apple scab, leaf curl, anthracnose, and a number of foliar feeding insects.<BR>
<BR>
We have done mildew control for a couple years in vineyards, this is a scientific study, and we have one more year to go to finish up.&nbsp; Then we'll publish the results.&nbsp; Been working well!<BR>
<BR>
I can direct you to a number of orchard folks who are having good control, if you want.&nbsp; We need more replicated scientific studies in orchards in the US, and I would dearly love to get some done.&nbsp; The SARE grants are good places to get some grower grants.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
There are a number of researchers at Washington State University that tried compost tea early on orchards, but they did not make decent tea.&nbsp; They even had the tea tested sometimes, but could never reach the quality control standards we have shown are necessary.&nbsp; But they still bad-mouth compost tea as not working.&nbsp; Sigh.&nbsp; And these are scientists?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
But there are much better machines to make compost tea out on the market now.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
If I could work with you on documenting the benefits of compost tea, I would love to talk!<BR>
<BR>
Elaine Ingham<BR>
info@soilfoodweb.com</FONT></HTML>

--part1_7a.2f8f3543.2aeeea72_boundary--

.

From - Mon Oct 28 15:59:21 2002
X-UIDL: 322731602
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id ACECE6B7005C; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 15:24:12 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id ACE513E20256; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 15:24:05 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNS1BL4K; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 15:23:51 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 17635 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 28 Oct 2002 15:23:56 -0500
Received: from 205.188.157.40 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 15:23:56 -0400
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-d08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id
          d.f5.244a6f67 (4552) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Mon, 28 Oct
          2002 15:23:28 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="part1_f5.244a6f67.2aeef6c0_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows AU sub 10503
Message-ID:  <f5.244a6f67.2aeef6c0@aol.com>
Date:         Mon, 28 Oct 2002 15:23:28 EST
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731602
Status: U

--part1_f5.244a6f67.2aeef6c0_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi JBK -

The Compost Tea Brewing Manual contains the standards we have seen as
providing teas which everytime suppress foliar diseases.  The necessary
conditions are discussed in the manual.  The data on which we base our
standards are in the Tea manual, available from www.soilfoodweb.com

Critics of our data say that fungi don't grow in tea, but that's only when
their machines don't extract fungi, or the fungi are killed because the
aeration is lacking in the tea.  By adding too high a concentration of food
for the organisms into the tea, the bacteria and fungi can grow so rapidly
that they use up the oxygen in the water.  And it can be any food, from humic
acid to white sugar, that gets rapid growth, uses the oxygen in the water
more rapidly than oxygen can be replaced, and results in anaerobic conditions
on the tea, and thus allows E. coli to be able to out-compete competitors,
inhibitors and organisms that consume E. coli and other pathogens.

We are in the process today of running three replicated samples from one
compost pile, doing total and active bacterial biomass, total and active
fungal biomass, protozoan numbers and ID to family, and nematode numbers and
ID to genus/species.   We done work like this often, and have alot of data on
compost quality.  That's where our standards come from.  Lots of testing, and
relating the results to plant growth.

The work in the tomato blight problem exemplifies this, and as soon as I have
the paper finished and off to the journal, I'll send a preprint to you.

OK?  Any other questions, please ask.  Or give me a call if you'd rather.
Check our website, www.soilfoodweb.com

Elaine



--part1_f5.244a6f67.2aeef6c0_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=4 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Hi JBK - <BR>
<BR>
The Compost Tea Brewing Manual contains the standards we have seen as providing teas which everytime suppress foliar diseases.&nbsp; The necessary conditions are discussed in the manual.&nbsp; The data on which we base our standards are in the Tea manual, available from www.soilfoodweb.com<BR>
<BR>
Critics of our data say that fungi don't grow in tea, but that's only when their machines don't extract fungi, or the fungi are killed because the aeration is lacking in the tea.&nbsp; By adding too high a concentration of food for the organisms into the tea, the bacteria and fungi can grow so rapidly that they use up the oxygen in the water.&nbsp; And it can be any food, from humic acid to white sugar, that gets rapid growth, uses the oxygen in the water more rapidly than oxygen can be replaced, and results in anaerobic conditions on the tea, and thus allows E. coli to be able to out-compete competitors, inhibitors and organisms that consume E. coli and other pathogens.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
We are in the process today of running three replicated samples from one compost pile, doing total and active bacterial biomass, total and active fungal biomass, protozoan numbers and ID to family, and nematode numbers and ID to genus/species.&nbsp;&nbsp; We done work like this often, and have alot of data on compost quality.&nbsp; That's where our standards come from.&nbsp; Lots of testing, and relating the results to plant growth.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
The work in the tomato blight problem exemplifies this, and as soon as I have the paper finished and off to the journal, I'll send a preprint to you.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
OK?&nbsp; Any other questions, please ask.&nbsp; Or give me a call if you'd rather.&nbsp; Check our website, www.soilfoodweb.com<BR>
<BR>
Elaine<BR>
<BR>
 </FONT></HTML>

--part1_f5.244a6f67.2aeef6c0_boundary--

.

From - Tue Oct 29 02:39:10 2002
X-UIDL: 322731653
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A8855CE1007C; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 02:28:05 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A87E2157028C; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 02:27:58 -0500
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNS1BZAW; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 02:27:54 -0500
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Tue Oct 29 02:27:51 2002 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 17810 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Tue, 29 Oct 2002 02:27:56 -0500
Received: from 202.54.15.75 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 02:27:55 -0400
Received: from nde.vsnl.net.in (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nde.vsnl.net.in
          (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0ED93F842 for <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>;
          Tue, 29 Oct 2002 12:55:18 +0530 (IST)
Received: from ([61.0.34.20]) by del5 (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall Unix); Tue,
          29 Oct 2002 12:55:20 +0530 (IST)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47  (WinNT; I)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <7a.2f8f3543.2aeeea72@aol.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="------------052490E2EFAB8CA259584CF0"
Message-ID:  <3DBE1AD7.6DD60735@nde.vsnl.net.in>
Date:         Tue, 29 Oct 2002 10:51:27 +0530
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Maple Organics <tamra@NDE.VSNL.NET.IN>
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731653
Status: U

--------------052490E2EFAB8CA259584CF0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

We have been working with something similar to compost teas. We are
using EM Technology along with aromatic plant leaves, fruits and even
roots to make FPE (Fermented plant extracts) which is carried out in
completely anaerobic environment.

The process is quite simple. We ferment aromatic matter with EM &
molasses in a plastic jar or can. Half the container is filled with
aromatic substances like neem, aloe, stinging nettles etc and 5%
molasses & 5% EM is added. The rest is filled with good quality water.
The whole thing is shaken up considerably and left in a corner.

Every day we open the lid for a few seconds to let off the gas
formation. After the gas stops getting made (which usually happens after
6-7 days) we sift out the liquid and dilute with water (1:1,000) and
spray on the plants before sun rise or after sun set.

This is a proactive spray and is used by us right from the sapling
stage.

Regards,
Sanjay


Elaine Ingham wrote:

> We have been working with compost tea makers preventing disease such
> as apple scab, leaf curl, anthracnose, and a number of foliar feeding
> insects.
>
> We have done mildew control for a couple years in vineyards, this is a
> scientific study, and we have one more year to go to finish up.  Then
> we'll publish the results.  Been working well!
>
> I can direct you to a number of orchard folks who are having good
> control, if you want.  We need more replicated scientific studies in
> orchards in the US, and I would dearly love to get some done.  The
> SARE grants are good places to get some grower grants.
>
> There are a number of researchers at Washington State University that
> tried compost tea early on orchards, but they did not make decent
> tea.  They even had the tea tested sometimes, but could never reach
> the quality control standards we have shown are necessary.  But they
> still bad-mouth compost tea as not working.  Sigh.  And these are
> scientists?
>
> But there are much better machines to make compost tea out on the
> market now.
>
> If I could work with you on documenting the benefits of compost tea, I
> would love to talk!
>
> Elaine Ingham
> info@soilfoodweb.com

--------------052490E2EFAB8CA259584CF0
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
We have been working with something similar to compost teas. We are using
EM Technology along with aromatic plant leaves, fruits and even roots to
make FPE (Fermented plant extracts) which is carried out in completely
anaerobic environment.
<p>The process is quite simple. We ferment aromatic matter with EM &amp;
molasses in a plastic jar or can. Half the container is filled with aromatic
substances like neem, aloe, stinging nettles etc and 5% molasses &amp;
5% EM is added. The rest is filled with good quality water. The whole thing
is shaken up considerably and left in a corner.
<p>Every day we open the lid for a few seconds to let off the gas formation.
After the gas stops getting made (which usually happens after 6-7 days)
we sift out the liquid and dilute with water (1:1,000) and spray on the
plants before sun rise or after sun set.
<p>This is a proactive spray and is used by us right from the sapling stage.
<p>Regards,
<br>Sanjay
<br>&nbsp;
<p>Elaine Ingham wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><font face="Arial"><font size=+1>We have been working
with compost tea makers preventing disease such as apple scab, leaf curl,
anthracnose, and a number of foliar feeding insects.</font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=+1>We have done mildew control for a couple
years in vineyards, this is a scientific study, and we have one more year
to go to finish up.&nbsp; Then we'll publish the results.&nbsp; Been working
well!</font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=+1>I can direct you to a number of orchard
folks who are having good control, if you want.&nbsp; We need more replicated
scientific studies in orchards in the US, and I would dearly love to get
some done.&nbsp; The SARE grants are good places to get some grower grants.</font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=+1>There are a number of researchers at
Washington State University that tried compost tea early on orchards, but
they did not make decent tea.&nbsp; They even had the tea tested sometimes,
but could never reach the quality control standards we have shown are necessary.&nbsp;
But they still bad-mouth compost tea as not working.&nbsp; Sigh.&nbsp;
And these are scientists?</font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=+1>But there are much better machines
to make compost tea out on the market now.</font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=+1>If I could work with you on documenting
the benefits of compost tea, I would love to talk!</font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=+1>Elaine Ingham</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=+1>info@soilfoodweb.com</font></font></blockquote>
</html>

--------------052490E2EFAB8CA259584CF0--

.

From - Tue Oct 29 23:56:00 2002
X-UIDL: 322731718
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A8F8497A00C0; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:25:44 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A8F3407C0228; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:25:39 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNS1CV20; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:25:38 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 18380 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:25:42 -0500
Received: from 64.12.136.8 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:25:42 -0400
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-m05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id
          d.f.11c337f (4568) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Tue, 29 Oct
          2002 18:25:21 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="part1_f.11c337f.2af072db_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows AU sub 10503
Message-ID:  <f.11c337f.2af072db@aol.com>
Date:         Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:25:15 EST
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: compost tea makers
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731718
Status: U

--part1_f.11c337f.2af072db_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi folks-

There are machines that cost much less, and are more effective at extracting
and growing ALL the organisms you need in tea, than the one that Frank spoke
about.  I won't even mention that company as making tea machines anymore,
because they don't make compost tea machines.  They make bacteria tea
machines; their machines don't do an adequate job of extracting and growing
fungi, protozoa or nematodes.  Given the predilection of that machine to go
anaerobic during the tea brew, it might be safer to just buy an inoculum of
bacteria from a company like EM, or Organica, or Helena, or Agri-Energy,
or... well, the list is quite long.

There is a 5 gal machine from KIS (www.simplici-tea.com) for $99. that
extracts bacteria, fungi, protozoa and nematodes - all the organisms you need
- and the soluble nutrients from the compost quite well.  The data for the
latest improvements are not on their website yet, but the machines are
producing great tea.  It takes just a pound or so of compost to make 5 gal,
which is enough to put on 1 acre (you put the 5 gal of tea into the amount of
water needed to spray out on the acre, make sure the water is chlorine-free).

Alaska Giant (www.alaskagiant.com) makes a 1 gal tea maker for $40, and a 5
gal tea maker for $80.  Again, both very good tea makers, make great teas,
with good fungi.  Both good choices.  They have a starter mix as well.

EPM (100 gal and 500 gal sizes) makes GREAT tea makers, and they have a 22
gal machine coming out soon.  Their website is www.composttea.com   They also
sell the fungi that take out many root-feeding pests, as well as foliar
insects.

Wormgold has just released a tea machine, not on their web site yet, so stay
tuned.  Nice, low-profile, easy to clean, sizes 50 to 200 gal.

Earthworks makes 35 and 85 gal sizes (www.soilfirst.com).  Really great
fungal and bacterial biomass.

James Sottilo makes tea makers to order.  JAMSOT@aol.com

There are many tea makers on the market, for reasonable prices, that extract
the organisms just fine, and let them grow without worry of the tea becoming
anaerobic.

The foods the machine manufacturers make match the needs of their machines,
or if you want some really great compost and activator, try Hendrikus
Schraven's website, hendrikus.com.  They make some super foods for the
organisms.

And try some of the special bacterial and fungal inocula available - just a
pinch in the tea, and grow the good guys yourself.  Don't put in too much, if
they grow too fast, they use up all the air in the tea, and that's when you
grow not-so-good bacteria, like E. coli and other human pathogens.

It is not that difficult to do a good job.  You need to have care, true, but
don't be scared off.

Or find a tea center near you, and buy the tea from a professional.  Check
the SFI web site for the names of reputable tea centers near you.

Elaine Ingham


--part1_f.11c337f.2af072db_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=4 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Hi folks- <BR>
<BR>
There are machines that cost much less, and are more effective at extracting and growing ALL the organisms you need in tea, than the one that Frank spoke about.&nbsp; I won't even mention that company as making tea machines anymore, because they don't make compost tea machines.&nbsp; They make bacteria tea machines; their machines don't do an adequate job of extracting and growing fungi, protozoa or nematodes.&nbsp; Given the predilection of that machine to go anaerobic during the tea brew, it might be safer to just buy an inoculum of bacteria from a company like EM, or Organica, or Helena, or Agri-Energy, or... well, the list is quite long.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
There is a 5 gal machine from KIS (www.simplici-tea.com) for $99. that extracts bacteria, fungi, protozoa and nematodes - all the organisms you need - and the soluble nutrients from the compost quite well.&nbsp; The data for the latest improvements are not on their website yet, but the machines are producing great tea.&nbsp; It takes just a pound or so of compost to make 5 gal, which is enough to put on 1 acre (you put the 5 gal of tea into the amount of water needed to spray out on the acre, make sure the water is chlorine-free).<BR>
<BR>
Alaska Giant (www.alaskagiant.com) makes a 1 gal tea maker for $40, and a 5 gal tea maker for $80.&nbsp; Again, both very good tea makers, make great teas, with good fungi.&nbsp; Both good choices.&nbsp; They have a starter mix as well.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
EPM (100 gal and 500 gal sizes) makes GREAT tea makers, and they have a 22 gal machine coming out soon.&nbsp; Their website is www.composttea.com&nbsp;&nbsp; They also sell the fungi that take out many root-feeding pests, as well as foliar insects. <BR>
<BR>
Wormgold has just released a tea machine, not on their web site yet, so stay tuned.&nbsp; Nice, low-profile, easy to clean, sizes 50 to 200 gal.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Earthworks makes 35 and 85 gal sizes (www.soilfirst.com).&nbsp; Really great fungal and bacterial biomass. <BR>
<BR>
James Sottilo makes tea makers to order.&nbsp; JAMSOT@aol.com<BR>
<BR>
There are many tea makers on the market, for reasonable prices, that extract the organisms just fine, and let them grow without worry of the tea becoming anaerobic.<BR>
<BR>
The foods the machine manufacturers make match the needs of their machines, or if you want some really great compost and activator, try Hendrikus Schraven's website, hendrikus.com.&nbsp; They make some super foods for the organisms.<BR>
<BR>
And try some of the special bacterial and fungal inocula available - just a pinch in the tea, and grow the good guys yourself.&nbsp; Don't put in too much, if they grow too fast, they use up all the air in the tea, and that's when you grow not-so-good bacteria, like E. coli and other human pathogens. <BR>
<BR>
It is not that difficult to do a good job.&nbsp; You need to have care, true, but don't be scared off.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Or find a tea center near you, and buy the tea from a professional.&nbsp; Check the SFI web site for the names of reputable tea centers near you.&nbsp; <BR>
&nbsp; <BR>
Elaine Ingham</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"> <BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_f.11c337f.2af072db_boundary--

.

From - Tue Oct 29 23:56:02 2002
X-UIDL: 322731724
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A121B0910140; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 21:17:05 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A11BA5690042; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 21:16:59 -0500
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNS1CZFY; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 21:16:39 -0500
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Tue Oct 29 21:16:36 2002 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 18452 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Tue, 29 Oct 2002 21:16:39 -0500
Received: from 64.12.136.161 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 21:16:39 -0400
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-m06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id
          d.190.fd8b9af (4184) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Tue, 29 Oct
          2002 21:16:19 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="part1_190.fd8b9af.2af09af3_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows AU sub 10503
Message-ID:  <190.fd8b9af.2af09af3@aol.com>
Date:         Tue, 29 Oct 2002 21:16:19 EST
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: compost tea makers
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731724
Status: U

--part1_190.fd8b9af.2af09af3_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi Mike -

Yes, really good soil would be fine to put in a compost tea maker.  If soil
contains a good food web of all the organisms needed, soil can serve to make
compost tea (hum, that would be soil tea then, right?).

Or use a compost made without manure.  Use nitrogen-fixing leguminous plant
material in the compost instead of manure.

Which is why the USDA Compost Task Force recommendations were so silly.
Since we objected to not being able to use sugar, molasses or soluble carbon
materials because - oh fear! - these materials might result in E. coli growth
(which is silly, high energy carbon materials don't cause E. coli to grow,
the presence of E. coli, and the right conditions, specifically lack of
adequate oxygen - allow E. coli to win in competition for the foods), then
the Compost Task Force leader threatened to make a recommendation that no
compost tea could be used at all.

Luckily, that wasn't the actual recommendation made to the NOSB.  The actual
recommendation was that compost tea could not be used on foodstuffs because
of the fear of E. coli.

But composts not made from manure aren't likely to have E. coli.

Manure-based compost can also be pathogen free, so why limit even
manure-based compost if it can be documented to be pathogen-free?

Some soils could contain E. coli, so, if unsure, test to make sure.

But, the upshot of all this right now is that perhaps the NOSB will ignore
the recommendation from the Compost Task Force.  Maybe they'll use the wisdom
we all hope they have.

They received another recommendation, from OMRI, that basically said, if the
materials going into the product are OMRI approved, then the product is
certified organic.

Compost tea is OMRI approved.   All the starting materials in compost tea
used on an organic farm should certified organic.

This is the recommendation I heard about late last fall - gosh, almost a year
ago!  A year ago, I figured the NOP would not be a problem, because OMRI had
it under control.

Part of the reason for this being the correct ruling is the tradition of
using compost tea since the Roman days.  Cato discusses making a liquid that
sounds very much like compost tea (ok, they used slave's blood as a food
resource, but we can leave out that part).

Might we want to work out the exact conditions that prevent E. coli from
growing in tea?  Yes.  And we'll publish that data when we get the testing
done.

No one wants to be in danger of growing human pathogens.  But we need to be
less insanely afraid.  E. coli doesn't survive the aerobic world, unless
something is very not-normal.

Why did we go down this track of insanity?  Because a few people at the USDA
are nuts about the danger of E. coli.  They seem to feel that anything ever
touched by E. coli may re-grow E. coli.

If that were true, none of us could drink any water that ever passed through
a sewage treatment plant.  Everything you eat probably came in contact with
something that had E. coli once upon a time.

But E. coli doesn't survive in the normal aerobic world.  Human pathogens die
when they get eaten.  They will be out-competed or inhibited in the fully
aerobic world.

Thank goodness that by setting up the right conditions, human pathogens can't
survive.

Make sure you set up those conditions that select against E. coli in your
compost and your compost tea machines.  Just PLEASE be aware of so-called
compost tea machines  that don't make compost tea.

Beware of those machines that don't maintain aerobic conditions.  If the air
bubbles can't get into the basket, the inside of the basket goes anaerobic,
and guess what can grow?  Not sure?  Measure it with a dissolved oxygen
probe.

That's what standards are for.  The Compost Tea Manual has the standards
necessary to assure that human pathogens, most plant pathogens, root-feeding
nematodes
and weeds (in heated compost) are not problems in compost tea, or compost.

Fear is not necessary.  Sane, logical, thoughtful, science-based information
is necessary.

Good science, not studies based on someone wanting to show there can be a
problem, are needed.  All the tea makers need to be tested, not just one that
can't maintain oxygen in the machine and allows E. coli to grow.

If you mess around with the conditions enough, and ignore the basic
parameters of how the product is actually made, you can always demonstrate a
problem.

I can take a coffee maker and use it to make a brown liquid that looks like
coffee, but will kill you.  Should we take coffee makers off the market
because someone can do stupid, inappropriate things with them?

That's what the Compost Task Force decided, based on poorly done studies
where the people involved clearly have no idea how to calibrate an oxygen
probe.

Let's hope the people on the NOSB are bright enough to see through the, ah,
manure.

Elaine Ingham

--part1_190.fd8b9af.2af09af3_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=4 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Hi Mike - <BR>
<BR>
Yes, really good soil would be fine to put in a compost tea maker.&nbsp; If soil contains a good food web of all the organisms needed, soil can serve to make compost tea (hum, that would be soil tea then, right?).&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Or use a compost made without manure.&nbsp; Use nitrogen-fixing leguminous plant material in the compost instead of manure. <BR>
<BR>
Which is why the USDA Compost Task Force recommendations were so silly.&nbsp; Since we objected to not being able to use sugar, molasses or soluble carbon materials because - oh fear! - these materials might result in E. coli growth (which is silly, high energy carbon materials don't cause E. coli to grow, the presence of E. coli, and the right conditions, specifically lack of adequate oxygen - allow E. coli to win in competition for the foods), then the Compost Task Force leader threatened to make a recommendation that no compost tea could be used at all.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Luckily, that wasn't the actual recommendation made to the NOSB.&nbsp; The actual recommendation was that compost tea could not be used on foodstuffs because of the fear of E. coli. <BR>
<BR>
But composts not made from manure aren't likely to have E. coli.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Manure-based compost can also be pathogen free, so why limit even manure-based compost if it can be documented to be pathogen-free?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Some soils could contain E. coli, so, if unsure, test to make sure.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
But, the upshot of all this right now is that perhaps the NOSB will ignore the recommendation from the Compost Task Force.&nbsp; Maybe they'll use the wisdom we all hope they have.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
They received another recommendation, from OMRI, that basically said, if the materials going into the product are OMRI approved, then the product is certified organic.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Compost tea is OMRI approved.&nbsp;&nbsp; All the starting materials in compost tea used on an organic farm should certified organic.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
This is the recommendation I heard about late last fall - gosh, almost a year ago!&nbsp; A year ago, I figured the NOP would not be a problem, because OMRI had it under control.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Part of the reason for this being the correct ruling is the tradition of using compost tea since the Roman days.&nbsp; Cato discusses making a liquid that sounds very much like compost tea (ok, they used slave's blood as a food resource, but we can leave out that part). <BR>
<BR>
Might we want to work out the exact conditions that prevent E. coli from growing in tea?&nbsp; Yes.&nbsp; And we'll publish that data when we get the testing done.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
No one wants to be in danger of growing human pathogens.&nbsp; But we need to be less insanely afraid.&nbsp; E. coli doesn't survive the aerobic world, unless something is very not-normal.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Why did we go down this track of insanity?&nbsp; Because a few people at the USDA are nuts about the danger of E. coli.&nbsp; They seem to feel that anything ever touched by E. coli may re-grow E. coli. <BR>
<BR>
If that were true, none of us could drink any water that ever passed through a sewage treatment plant.&nbsp; Everything you eat probably came in contact with something that had E. coli once upon a time.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
But E. coli doesn't survive in the normal aerobic world.&nbsp; Human pathogens die when they get eaten.&nbsp; They will be out-competed or inhibited in the fully aerobic world.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Thank goodness that by setting up the right conditions, human pathogens can't survive.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Make sure you set up those conditions that select against E. coli in your compost and your compost tea machines.&nbsp; Just PLEASE be aware of so-called compost tea machines&nbsp; that don't make compost tea.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Beware of those machines that don't maintain aerobic conditions.&nbsp; If the air bubbles can't get into the basket, the inside of the basket goes anaerobic, and guess what can grow?&nbsp; Not sure?&nbsp; Measure it with a dissolved oxygen probe.<BR>
<BR>
That's what standards are for.&nbsp; The Compost Tea Manual has the standards necessary to assure that human pathogens, most plant pathogens, root-feeding nematodes <BR>
and weeds (in heated compost) are not problems in compost tea, or compost.<BR>
<BR>
Fear is not necessary.&nbsp; Sane, logical, thoughtful, science-based information is necessary.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Good science, not studies based on someone wanting to show there can be a problem, are needed.&nbsp; All the tea makers need to be tested, not just one that can't maintain oxygen in the machine and allows E. coli to grow.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
If you mess around with the conditions enough, and ignore the basic parameters of how the product is actually made, you can always demonstrate a problem.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
I can take a coffee maker and use it to make a brown liquid that looks like coffee, but will kill you.&nbsp; Should we take coffee makers off the market because someone can do stupid, inappropriate things with them?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
That's what the Compost Task Force decided, based on poorly done studies where the people involved clearly have no idea how to calibrate an oxygen probe.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Let's hope the people on the NOSB are bright enough to see through the, ah, manure.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Elaine Ingham</FONT></HTML>

--part1_190.fd8b9af.2af09af3_boundary--

.

From - Tue Oct 29 23:56:00 2002
X-UIDL: 322731718
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A8F8497A00C0; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:25:44 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A8F3407C0228; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:25:39 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNS1CV20; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:25:38 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 18380 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:25:42 -0500
Received: from 64.12.136.8 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:25:42 -0400
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-m05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id
          d.f.11c337f (4568) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Tue, 29 Oct
          2002 18:25:21 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="part1_f.11c337f.2af072db_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows AU sub 10503
Message-ID:  <f.11c337f.2af072db@aol.com>
Date:         Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:25:15 EST
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: compost tea makers
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731718
Status: U

--part1_f.11c337f.2af072db_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi folks-

There are machines that cost much less, and are more effective at extracting
and growing ALL the organisms you need in tea, than the one that Frank spoke
about.  I won't even mention that company as making tea machines anymore,
because they don't make compost tea machines.  They make bacteria tea
machines; their machines don't do an adequate job of extracting and growing
fungi, protozoa or nematodes.  Given the predilection of that machine to go
anaerobic during the tea brew, it might be safer to just buy an inoculum of
bacteria from a company like EM, or Organica, or Helena, or Agri-Energy,
or... well, the list is quite long.

There is a 5 gal machine from KIS (www.simplici-tea.com) for $99. that
extracts bacteria, fungi, protozoa and nematodes - all the organisms you need
- and the soluble nutrients from the compost quite well.  The data for the
latest improvements are not on their website yet, but the machines are
producing great tea.  It takes just a pound or so of compost to make 5 gal,
which is enough to put on 1 acre (you put the 5 gal of tea into the amount of
water needed to spray out on the acre, make sure the water is chlorine-free).

Alaska Giant (www.alaskagiant.com) makes a 1 gal tea maker for $40, and a 5
gal tea maker for $80.  Again, both very good tea makers, make great teas,
with good fungi.  Both good choices.  They have a starter mix as well.

EPM (100 gal and 500 gal sizes) makes GREAT tea makers, and they have a 22
gal machine coming out soon.  Their website is www.composttea.com   They also
sell the fungi that take out many root-feeding pests, as well as foliar
insects.

Wormgold has just released a tea machine, not on their web site yet, so stay
tuned.  Nice, low-profile, easy to clean, sizes 50 to 200 gal.

Earthworks makes 35 and 85 gal sizes (www.soilfirst.com).  Really great
fungal and bacterial biomass.

James Sottilo makes tea makers to order.  JAMSOT@aol.com

There are many tea makers on the market, for reasonable prices, that extract
the organisms just fine, and let them grow without worry of the tea becoming
anaerobic.

The foods the machine manufacturers make match the needs of their machines,
or if you want some really great compost and activator, try Hendrikus
Schraven's website, hendrikus.com.  They make some super foods for the
organisms.

And try some of the special bacterial and fungal inocula available - just a
pinch in the tea, and grow the good guys yourself.  Don't put in too much, if
they grow too fast, they use up all the air in the tea, and that's when you
grow not-so-good bacteria, like E. coli and other human pathogens.

It is not that difficult to do a good job.  You need to have care, true, but
don't be scared off.

Or find a tea center near you, and buy the tea from a professional.  Check
the SFI web site for the names of reputable tea centers near you.

Elaine Ingham


--part1_f.11c337f.2af072db_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=4 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Hi folks- <BR>
<BR>
There are machines that cost much less, and are more effective at extracting and growing ALL the organisms you need in tea, than the one that Frank spoke about.&nbsp; I won't even mention that company as making tea machines anymore, because they don't make compost tea machines.&nbsp; They make bacteria tea machines; their machines don't do an adequate job of extracting and growing fungi, protozoa or nematodes.&nbsp; Given the predilection of that machine to go anaerobic during the tea brew, it might be safer to just buy an inoculum of bacteria from a company like EM, or Organica, or Helena, or Agri-Energy, or... well, the list is quite long.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
There is a 5 gal machine from KIS (www.simplici-tea.com) for $99. that extracts bacteria, fungi, protozoa and nematodes - all the organisms you need - and the soluble nutrients from the compost quite well.&nbsp; The data for the latest improvements are not on their website yet, but the machines are producing great tea.&nbsp; It takes just a pound or so of compost to make 5 gal, which is enough to put on 1 acre (you put the 5 gal of tea into the amount of water needed to spray out on the acre, make sure the water is chlorine-free).<BR>
<BR>
Alaska Giant (www.alaskagiant.com) makes a 1 gal tea maker for $40, and a 5 gal tea maker for $80.&nbsp; Again, both very good tea makers, make great teas, with good fungi.&nbsp; Both good choices.&nbsp; They have a starter mix as well.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
EPM (100 gal and 500 gal sizes) makes GREAT tea makers, and they have a 22 gal machine coming out soon.&nbsp; Their website is www.composttea.com&nbsp;&nbsp; They also sell the fungi that take out many root-feeding pests, as well as foliar insects. <BR>
<BR>
Wormgold has just released a tea machine, not on their web site yet, so stay tuned.&nbsp; Nice, low-profile, easy to clean, sizes 50 to 200 gal.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Earthworks makes 35 and 85 gal sizes (www.soilfirst.com).&nbsp; Really great fungal and bacterial biomass. <BR>
<BR>
James Sottilo makes tea makers to order.&nbsp; JAMSOT@aol.com<BR>
<BR>
There are many tea makers on the market, for reasonable prices, that extract the organisms just fine, and let them grow without worry of the tea becoming anaerobic.<BR>
<BR>
The foods the machine manufacturers make match the needs of their machines, or if you want some really great compost and activator, try Hendrikus Schraven's website, hendrikus.com.&nbsp; They make some super foods for the organisms.<BR>
<BR>
And try some of the special bacterial and fungal inocula available - just a pinch in the tea, and grow the good guys yourself.&nbsp; Don't put in too much, if they grow too fast, they use up all the air in the tea, and that's when you grow not-so-good bacteria, like E. coli and other human pathogens. <BR>
<BR>
It is not that difficult to do a good job.&nbsp; You need to have care, true, but don't be scared off.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Or find a tea center near you, and buy the tea from a professional.&nbsp; Check the SFI web site for the names of reputable tea centers near you.&nbsp; <BR>
&nbsp; <BR>
Elaine Ingham</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"> <BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_f.11c337f.2af072db_boundary--

.

From - Tue Oct 29 23:56:02 2002
X-UIDL: 322731724
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A121B0910140; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 21:17:05 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A11BA5690042; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 21:16:59 -0500
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNS1CZFY; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 21:16:39 -0500
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Tue Oct 29 21:16:36 2002 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 18452 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Tue, 29 Oct 2002 21:16:39 -0500
Received: from 64.12.136.161 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 21:16:39 -0400
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-m06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id
          d.190.fd8b9af (4184) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Tue, 29 Oct
          2002 21:16:19 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="part1_190.fd8b9af.2af09af3_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows AU sub 10503
Message-ID:  <190.fd8b9af.2af09af3@aol.com>
Date:         Tue, 29 Oct 2002 21:16:19 EST
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: compost tea makers
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731724
Status: U

--part1_190.fd8b9af.2af09af3_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi Mike -

Yes, really good soil would be fine to put in a compost tea maker.  If soil
contains a good food web of all the organisms needed, soil can serve to make
compost tea (hum, that would be soil tea then, right?).

Or use a compost made without manure.  Use nitrogen-fixing leguminous plant
material in the compost instead of manure.

Which is why the USDA Compost Task Force recommendations were so silly.
Since we objected to not being able to use sugar, molasses or soluble carbon
materials because - oh fear! - these materials might result in E. coli growth
(which is silly, high energy carbon materials don't cause E. coli to grow,
the presence of E. coli, and the right conditions, specifically lack of
adequate oxygen - allow E. coli to win in competition for the foods), then
the Compost Task Force leader threatened to make a recommendation that no
compost tea could be used at all.

Luckily, that wasn't the actual recommendation made to the NOSB.  The actual
recommendation was that compost tea could not be used on foodstuffs because
of the fear of E. coli.

But composts not made from manure aren't likely to have E. coli.

Manure-based compost can also be pathogen free, so why limit even
manure-based compost if it can be documented to be pathogen-free?

Some soils could contain E. coli, so, if unsure, test to make sure.

But, the upshot of all this right now is that perhaps the NOSB will ignore
the recommendation from the Compost Task Force.  Maybe they'll use the wisdom
we all hope they have.

They received another recommendation, from OMRI, that basically said, if the
materials going into the product are OMRI approved, then the product is
certified organic.

Compost tea is OMRI approved.   All the starting materials in compost tea
used on an organic farm should certified organic.

This is the recommendation I heard about late last fall - gosh, almost a year
ago!  A year ago, I figured the NOP would not be a problem, because OMRI had
it under control.

Part of the reason for this being the correct ruling is the tradition of
using compost tea since the Roman days.  Cato discusses making a liquid that
sounds very much like compost tea (ok, they used slave's blood as a food
resource, but we can leave out that part).

Might we want to work out the exact conditions that prevent E. coli from
growing in tea?  Yes.  And we'll publish that data when we get the testing
done.

No one wants to be in danger of growing human pathogens.  But we need to be
less insanely afraid.  E. coli doesn't survive the aerobic world, unless
something is very not-normal.

Why did we go down this track of insanity?  Because a few people at the USDA
are nuts about the danger of E. coli.  They seem to feel that anything ever
touched by E. coli may re-grow E. coli.

If that were true, none of us could drink any water that ever passed through
a sewage treatment plant.  Everything you eat probably came in contact with
something that had E. coli once upon a time.

But E. coli doesn't survive in the normal aerobic world.  Human pathogens die
when they get eaten.  They will be out-competed or inhibited in the fully
aerobic world.

Thank goodness that by setting up the right conditions, human pathogens can't
survive.

Make sure you set up those conditions that select against E. coli in your
compost and your compost tea machines.  Just PLEASE be aware of so-called
compost tea machines  that don't make compost tea.

Beware of those machines that don't maintain aerobic conditions.  If the air
bubbles can't get into the basket, the inside of the basket goes anaerobic,
and guess what can grow?  Not sure?  Measure it with a dissolved oxygen
probe.

That's what standards are for.  The Compost Tea Manual has the standards
necessary to assure that human pathogens, most plant pathogens, root-feeding
nematodes
and weeds (in heated compost) are not problems in compost tea, or compost.

Fear is not necessary.  Sane, logical, thoughtful, science-based information
is necessary.

Good science, not studies based on someone wanting to show there can be a
problem, are needed.  All the tea makers need to be tested, not just one that
can't maintain oxygen in the machine and allows E. coli to grow.

If you mess around with the conditions enough, and ignore the basic
parameters of how the product is actually made, you can always demonstrate a
problem.

I can take a coffee maker and use it to make a brown liquid that looks like
coffee, but will kill you.  Should we take coffee makers off the market
because someone can do stupid, inappropriate things with them?

That's what the Compost Task Force decided, based on poorly done studies
where the people involved clearly have no idea how to calibrate an oxygen
probe.

Let's hope the people on the NOSB are bright enough to see through the, ah,
manure.

Elaine Ingham

--part1_190.fd8b9af.2af09af3_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=4 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Hi Mike - <BR>
<BR>
Yes, really good soil would be fine to put in a compost tea maker.&nbsp; If soil contains a good food web of all the organisms needed, soil can serve to make compost tea (hum, that would be soil tea then, right?).&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Or use a compost made without manure.&nbsp; Use nitrogen-fixing leguminous plant material in the compost instead of manure. <BR>
<BR>
Which is why the USDA Compost Task Force recommendations were so silly.&nbsp; Since we objected to not being able to use sugar, molasses or soluble carbon materials because - oh fear! - these materials might result in E. coli growth (which is silly, high energy carbon materials don't cause E. coli to grow, the presence of E. coli, and the right conditions, specifically lack of adequate oxygen - allow E. coli to win in competition for the foods), then the Compost Task Force leader threatened to make a recommendation that no compost tea could be used at all.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Luckily, that wasn't the actual recommendation made to the NOSB.&nbsp; The actual recommendation was that compost tea could not be used on foodstuffs because of the fear of E. coli. <BR>
<BR>
But composts not made from manure aren't likely to have E. coli.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Manure-based compost can also be pathogen free, so why limit even manure-based compost if it can be documented to be pathogen-free?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Some soils could contain E. coli, so, if unsure, test to make sure.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
But, the upshot of all this right now is that perhaps the NOSB will ignore the recommendation from the Compost Task Force.&nbsp; Maybe they'll use the wisdom we all hope they have.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
They received another recommendation, from OMRI, that basically said, if the materials going into the product are OMRI approved, then the product is certified organic.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Compost tea is OMRI approved.&nbsp;&nbsp; All the starting materials in compost tea used on an organic farm should certified organic.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
This is the recommendation I heard about late last fall - gosh, almost a year ago!&nbsp; A year ago, I figured the NOP would not be a problem, because OMRI had it under control.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Part of the reason for this being the correct ruling is the tradition of using compost tea since the Roman days.&nbsp; Cato discusses making a liquid that sounds very much like compost tea (ok, they used slave's blood as a food resource, but we can leave out that part). <BR>
<BR>
Might we want to work out the exact conditions that prevent E. coli from growing in tea?&nbsp; Yes.&nbsp; And we'll publish that data when we get the testing done.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
No one wants to be in danger of growing human pathogens.&nbsp; But we need to be less insanely afraid.&nbsp; E. coli doesn't survive the aerobic world, unless something is very not-normal.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Why did we go down this track of insanity?&nbsp; Because a few people at the USDA are nuts about the danger of E. coli.&nbsp; They seem to feel that anything ever touched by E. coli may re-grow E. coli. <BR>
<BR>
If that were true, none of us could drink any water that ever passed through a sewage treatment plant.&nbsp; Everything you eat probably came in contact with something that had E. coli once upon a time.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
But E. coli doesn't survive in the normal aerobic world.&nbsp; Human pathogens die when they get eaten.&nbsp; They will be out-competed or inhibited in the fully aerobic world.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Thank goodness that by setting up the right conditions, human pathogens can't survive.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Make sure you set up those conditions that select against E. coli in your compost and your compost tea machines.&nbsp; Just PLEASE be aware of so-called compost tea machines&nbsp; that don't make compost tea.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Beware of those machines that don't maintain aerobic conditions.&nbsp; If the air bubbles can't get into the basket, the inside of the basket goes anaerobic, and guess what can grow?&nbsp; Not sure?&nbsp; Measure it with a dissolved oxygen probe.<BR>
<BR>
That's what standards are for.&nbsp; The Compost Tea Manual has the standards necessary to assure that human pathogens, most plant pathogens, root-feeding nematodes <BR>
and weeds (in heated compost) are not problems in compost tea, or compost.<BR>
<BR>
Fear is not necessary.&nbsp; Sane, logical, thoughtful, science-based information is necessary.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Good science, not studies based on someone wanting to show there can be a problem, are needed.&nbsp; All the tea makers need to be tested, not just one that can't maintain oxygen in the machine and allows E. coli to grow.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
If you mess around with the conditions enough, and ignore the basic parameters of how the product is actually made, you can always demonstrate a problem.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
I can take a coffee maker and use it to make a brown liquid that looks like coffee, but will kill you.&nbsp; Should we take coffee makers off the market because someone can do stupid, inappropriate things with them?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
That's what the Compost Task Force decided, based on poorly done studies where the people involved clearly have no idea how to calibrate an oxygen probe.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Let's hope the people on the NOSB are bright enough to see through the, ah, manure.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Elaine Ingham</FONT></HTML>

--part1_190.fd8b9af.2af09af3_boundary--

.

From - Wed Oct 30 23:43:19 2002
X-UIDL: 322731812
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A24325B700F6; Wed, 30 Oct 2002 23:32:03 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A237CE0E003E; Wed, 30 Oct 2002 23:31:51 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNS11AHB; Wed, 30 Oct 2002 23:31:42 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 19220 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Wed, 30 Oct 2002 23:31:43 -0500
Received: from 202.54.15.75 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Wed, 30 Oct 2002 23:31:43 -0400
Received: from nde.vsnl.net.in (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nde.vsnl.net.in
          (Postfix) with ESMTP id 196A23FFD1 for <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>;
          Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:59:04 +0530 (IST)
Received: from ([203.200.91.79]) by del5 (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall Unix);
          Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:59:05 +0530 (IST)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47  (WinNT; I)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID:  <3DC0B220.469DB96C@nde.vsnl.net.in>
Date:         Thu, 31 Oct 2002 10:01:28 +0530
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Maple Organics <tamra@NDE.VSNL.NET.IN>
Subject: Compost teas
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731812
Status: U

Edna,

It is well known that EM Technology is being widely used to treat
wastewater. Apart from reducing the BOD, COD etc it also reduces the
Coliform count. This means that both E. Coli and Salmonella populations
are reduced by as much as 80%. This also happens as EM reduces the pH
count in wastewater owing to Lactobacillus and Photosynthetic microbes.
They produce amino acids and other enzymes which control the pH.
Coliforms do not survive in low pH.

I have not tried to combine compost teas with EM, but it could be a good
idea to give it a shot and get lab tests carried out (both chemical and
biological) for the same.

Sanjay

.

From - Tue Oct 29 00:39:10 2002
X-UIDL: 322731648
X-Mozilla-Status: 1003
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AB9A8EFD003C; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 00:24:42 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AB9330A5025A; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 00:24:35 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNS1BWVZ; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 00:24:34 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 17799 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Tue, 29 Oct 2002 00:24:39 -0500
Received: from 202.54.15.75 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 00:24:39 -0400
Received: from nde.vsnl.net.in (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nde.vsnl.net.in
          (Postfix) with ESMTP id C71213F851 for <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>;
          Tue, 29 Oct 2002 10:51:20 +0530 (IST)
Received: from ([61.0.36.146]) by del5 (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall Unix); Tue,
          29 Oct 2002 10:52:00 +0530 (IST)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47  (WinNT; I)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID:  <3DBE18F2.781469C0@nde.vsnl.net.in>
Date:         Tue, 29 Oct 2002 10:43:22 +0530
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Maple Organics <tamra@NDE.VSNL.NET.IN>
Subject: WILD FARMING
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731648
Status: U

I have been following this thread about wild farming & would like to
share the work we are doing in Uttaranchal, a newly born State in India.
The farming practices in the mountains is very different and completely
depends on the natural resources, particularly the forest.

Due to this interdependence, we are advocating organic farming with the
support of the Uttaranchal government. The extension is being done by
converting the villages into Bio-villages. Complete information can be
provided to any one who might like to know about the same. We would also
welcome any suggestions or ideas that anyone can share with us.

The farming practices in the hill region of Uttaranchal presents some
interesting facts which must be kept in mind if any for of developmental
activities are to be designed.

It is a fact that the topography of Uttaranchal presents slopy lands
with poor soil depth and fragile eco-system. The farmers evolved through
centuries of informal experimentation a system of agriculture, which was
most suitable. Its main feature was conserving the natural resources of
soil via live stock dung and forest vegetation. Over a period of time,
however, the sustainability of the system was eroded owing to an
increase in human & livestock population.

The interdependence of various eco-systems is very evident. It is
perhaps already known that hill farming follows a unique farming system
in which people, water, habits, individual holdings, live stocks, common
lands (forest and grazing lands) are integrated with each other. It is
impossible to focus on just one system to bring about any development.
To bring about any meaningful development, it is imperative that the
whole system is broken down into small segments and then each segment is
approached individually, keeping the overall goal in mind. For this
purpose, various systems have been broken down into two distinct groups:
These groups could be called Human Activity and Natural Resources
respectively. They are:

                Human Activity        Natural Resources

                 Agriculture              Reserve Forest
                 Horticulture             Grazing lands
                 Animal Husbandry
                 Agro-forestry

In the mountains, unlike the plains Natural Resources are price less as
they effect the very essence of Human Activity.

The approach needs to be integrated and not compartmentalized to bring
about development. It has been experienced that Farmers, who adopted one
factor, abandoned it and reverted back to their traditional methods as a
result.

Fodder accounts for nearly 70% of livestock rearing cost. Availability
is a problem. It is supplemented with fresh leaves, which the village
women get from far off places. Fodder is being imported into the
mountains from the plains as well. This needs to be stopped and fodder
needs to be either grown or grazing areas increased scientifically.

>From some statistics and research available, it is seen that:

About 8 hectares of Reserve forest is needed to support approximately 1
hectare of land and 1 hectare of Reserve forest gives approximately 33
quintals of compost.

Earlier, there were huge Oak forests and social forestry (Bhimal,
bamboo, Bakain, mulberry etc) which have got depleted over a period of
time. Now mainly Pine trees could be seen in most forests. The loss of
broad leaves of the Oak and loss of green fodder resulted in lower
availability of biomass needed for rain fed region. Pine needles takes
time to decompose. Raw Pine needle compost resulted in the growth of
white grub insects which was harmful for farming.

Factors, which effect savings and investment – ability to save, will to
save and motivation to save, are lacking. There has been no Capital
formation except in terms of livestock and compact holdings in a few
areas. There is a need to identify technological, institutional and
resource management strategies, which will help in generating cash
income at farmer level and reduce drudgery of women, without degrading
the eco-system further.

Regards,
Sanjay Aggarwal

.

From - Tue Oct 29 02:39:10 2002
X-UIDL: 322731653
X-Mozilla-Status: 0013
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A8855CE1007C; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 02:28:05 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A87E2157028C; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 02:27:58 -0500
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNS1BZAW; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 02:27:54 -0500
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Tue Oct 29 02:27:51 2002 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 17810 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Tue, 29 Oct 2002 02:27:56 -0500
Received: from 202.54.15.75 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 02:27:55 -0400
Received: from nde.vsnl.net.in (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nde.vsnl.net.in
          (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0ED93F842 for <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>;
          Tue, 29 Oct 2002 12:55:18 +0530 (IST)
Received: from ([61.0.34.20]) by del5 (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall Unix); Tue,
          29 Oct 2002 12:55:20 +0530 (IST)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47  (WinNT; I)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <7a.2f8f3543.2aeeea72@aol.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="------------052490E2EFAB8CA259584CF0"
Message-ID:  <3DBE1AD7.6DD60735@nde.vsnl.net.in>
Date:         Tue, 29 Oct 2002 10:51:27 +0530
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Maple Organics <tamra@NDE.VSNL.NET.IN>
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731653
Status: U

--------------052490E2EFAB8CA259584CF0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

We have been working with something similar to compost teas. We are
using EM Technology along with aromatic plant leaves, fruits and even
roots to make FPE (Fermented plant extracts) which is carried out in
completely anaerobic environment.

The process is quite simple. We ferment aromatic matter with EM &
molasses in a plastic jar or can. Half the container is filled with
aromatic substances like neem, aloe, stinging nettles etc and 5%
molasses & 5% EM is added. The rest is filled with good quality water.
The whole thing is shaken up considerably and left in a corner.

Every day we open the lid for a few seconds to let off the gas
formation. After the gas stops getting made (which usually happens after
6-7 days) we sift out the liquid and dilute with water (1:1,000) and
spray on the plants before sun rise or after sun set.

This is a proactive spray and is used by us right from the sapling
stage.

Regards,
Sanjay


Elaine Ingham wrote:

> We have been working with compost tea makers preventing disease such
> as apple scab, leaf curl, anthracnose, and a number of foliar feeding
> insects.
>
> We have done mildew control for a couple years in vineyards, this is a
> scientific study, and we have one more year to go to finish up.  Then
> we'll publish the results.  Been working well!
>
> I can direct you to a number of orchard folks who are having good
> control, if you want.  We need more replicated scientific studies in
> orchards in the US, and I would dearly love to get some done.  The
> SARE grants are good places to get some grower grants.
>
> There are a number of researchers at Washington State University that
> tried compost tea early on orchards, but they did not make decent
> tea.  They even had the tea tested sometimes, but could never reach
> the quality control standards we have shown are necessary.  But they
> still bad-mouth compost tea as not working.  Sigh.  And these are
> scientists?
>
> But there are much better machines to make compost tea out on the
> market now.
>
> If I could work with you on documenting the benefits of compost tea, I
> would love to talk!
>
> Elaine Ingham
> info@soilfoodweb.com

--------------052490E2EFAB8CA259584CF0
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
We have been working with something similar to compost teas. We are using
EM Technology along with aromatic plant leaves, fruits and even roots to
make FPE (Fermented plant extracts) which is carried out in completely
anaerobic environment.
<p>The process is quite simple. We ferment aromatic matter with EM &amp;
molasses in a plastic jar or can. Half the container is filled with aromatic
substances like neem, aloe, stinging nettles etc and 5% molasses &amp;
5% EM is added. The rest is filled with good quality water. The whole thing
is shaken up considerably and left in a corner.
<p>Every day we open the lid for a few seconds to let off the gas formation.
After the gas stops getting made (which usually happens after 6-7 days)
we sift out the liquid and dilute with water (1:1,000) and spray on the
plants before sun rise or after sun set.
<p>This is a proactive spray and is used by us right from the sapling stage.
<p>Regards,
<br>Sanjay
<br>&nbsp;
<p>Elaine Ingham wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><font face="Arial"><font size=+1>We have been working
with compost tea makers preventing disease such as apple scab, leaf curl,
anthracnose, and a number of foliar feeding insects.</font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=+1>We have done mildew control for a couple
years in vineyards, this is a scientific study, and we have one more year
to go to finish up.&nbsp; Then we'll publish the results.&nbsp; Been working
well!</font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=+1>I can direct you to a number of orchard
folks who are having good control, if you want.&nbsp; We need more replicated
scientific studies in orchards in the US, and I would dearly love to get
some done.&nbsp; The SARE grants are good places to get some grower grants.</font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=+1>There are a number of researchers at
Washington State University that tried compost tea early on orchards, but
they did not make decent tea.&nbsp; They even had the tea tested sometimes,
but could never reach the quality control standards we have shown are necessary.&nbsp;
But they still bad-mouth compost tea as not working.&nbsp; Sigh.&nbsp;
And these are scientists?</font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=+1>But there are much better machines
to make compost tea out on the market now.</font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=+1>If I could work with you on documenting
the benefits of compost tea, I would love to talk!</font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=+1>Elaine Ingham</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=+1>info@soilfoodweb.com</font></font></blockquote>
</html>

--------------052490E2EFAB8CA259584CF0--

.

From - Thu Oct 31 13:35:19 2002
X-UIDL: 322731858
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A5533A170150; Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:24:19 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A54E44DF0212; Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:24:14 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNS11W6W; Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:24:03 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 20135 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:24:05 -0500
Received: from 128.227.242.250 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f)
          with TCP; Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:24:05 -0400
Received: by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55)
          id <VNS11W6R>; Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:24:03 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-ID:  <6D9F17809993D31198B100508B6201610C53AD38@nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu>
Date:         Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:24:02 -0500
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         "Andy Clark, SAN Coordinator" <san@SARE.ORG>
Subject: Effects of nitrogen additions on soil carbon
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731858
Status: U

SANET:

An article of interest appeared in Nature.  More information about the
on-line Nature magazine below this abstract.

See the full article by going to=20
http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=3D/nature/journal/v419/n=
6910/a
bs/nature01136_fs.html

Andy


Nature 419, 915 - 917 (2002); doi:10.1038/nature01136=20
=20

Variable effects of nitrogen additions on the stability and turnover
of soil carbon

JASON C. NEFF*?, ALAN R. TOWNSEND??=A7, GERD GLEIXNER, SCOTT J. =
LEHMAN=A7,
JOCELYN TURNBULL=A7 &
WILLIAM D. BOWMAN?

* Earth Surface Processes Team, Geologic Division, US Geological =
Survey, MS
980, Denver Federal Center, Denver, Colorado 80225, USA
? Environmental, Population and Organismic Biology, University of =
Colorado
at Boulder, Boulder, Colorado 80309, USA
=A7 Institute for Arctic and Alpine Research, University of Colorado at
Boulder, Boulder, Colorado 80309, USA
  Max Planck Institute for Biogeochemistry, Jena, Germany
? These authors contributed equally to this work

Correspondence and requests for materials should be addressed to J. N.
(e-mail: jneff@usgs.gov).


Soils contain the largest near-surface reservoir of terrestrial carbon =
and
so knowledge of the factors controlling soil
carbon storage and turnover is essential for understanding the changing
global carbon cycle. The influence of climate
on decomposition of soil carbon has been well documented, but there =
remains
considerable uncertainty in the
potential response of soil carbon dynamics to the rapid global increase =
in
reactive nitrogen (coming largely from
agricultural fertilizers and fossil fuel combustion). Here, using 14C, =
13C
and compound-specific analyses of soil
carbon from long-term nitrogen fertilization plots, we show that =
nitrogen
additions significantly accelerate
decomposition of light soil carbon fractions (with decadal turnover =
times)
while further stabilizing soil carbon
compounds in heavier, mineral-associated fractions (with multidecadal =
to
century lifetimes). Despite these changes
in the dynamics of different soil pools, we observed no significant =
changes
in bulk soil carbon, highlighting a
limitation inherent to the still widely used single-pool approach to
investigating soil carbon responses to changing
environmental conditions. It remains to be seen if the effects observed
here-caused by relatively high, short-term
fertilizer additions-are similar to those arising from lower, long-term
additions of nitrogen to natural ecosystems
from atmospheric deposition, but our results suggest nonetheless that
current models of terrestrial carbon cycling do
not contain the mechanisms needed to capture the complex relationship
between nitrogen availability and soil
carbon storage.


Nature - Table of Contents
Now available at http://www.nature.com/nature/

Visit Nature online to browse the content of the current issue,
including articles, letters to Nature, brief communications
and web extras.

Please note that you need to be a subscriber to enjoy full text
access to Nature online. To purchase a subscription, please visit
http://www.nature.com/nature/subscribe/

Nature Contents: 31 October 2002 Volume 419 No. 6910
(c) 2002 Nature Publishing group=20

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

.

From - Sun Nov 03 05:58:32 2002
X-UIDL: 322732018
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id ADE46B99013E; Sun, 03 Nov 2002 05:43:48 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id ADD11E980062; Sun, 03 Nov 2002 05:43:29 -0500
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNS1GWQ9; Sun, 3 Nov 2002 05:43:39 -0500
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Sun Nov 03 05:42:59 2002 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 21763 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sun, 3 Nov 2002 05:42:56 -0500
Received: from 213.55.2.205 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Sun, 3 Nov 2002 05:42:56 -0400
Received: from default (unknown [210.23.208.119]) by mail.gn.apc.org (Postfix)
          with ESMTP id 71BBB14B620 for <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Sun,  3
          Nov 2002 10:42:35 +0000 (GMT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Content-description: Mail message body
Message-ID:  <3DC56B67.12748.49947B9@localhost>
Date:         Sun, 3 Nov 2002 18:31:03 +0800
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Roberto Verzola <rverzola@GN.APC.ORG>
Subject: E.coli
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732018
Status: U

Can someone pls explain why E.coli is considered a pathogen?
Doesn't it exist naturally in our gut? How can it be harmful? Aren't
they in fact an essential part of our gut ecology?

I know that the presence of E.coli is considered an indication of
fecal contamination, because the E.coli in our gut also appear in
human waste. So, a high E.coli count in water means fecal
contamination. But that doesn't make E.coli itself a pathogen, does
it?

Roberto Verzola
Philippines

.

From - Sun Nov 03 08:08:33 2002
X-UIDL: 322732020
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id ACF98E6A0040; Sun, 03 Nov 2002 07:56:28 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id ACFA61950042; Sun, 03 Nov 2002 07:56:26 -0500
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNS1GYBJ; Sun, 3 Nov 2002 07:55:38 -0500
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Sun Nov 03 07:55:34 2002 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 22038 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sun, 3 Nov 2002 07:55:31 -0500
Received: from 129.100.2.63 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Sun, 3 Nov 2002 07:55:30 -0400
Received: from femail.its.uwo.ca (hurdle.its.uwo.ca [129.100.2.108]) by
          pony.its.uwo.ca (8.12.6/8.12.0) with ESMTP id gA3CtC96017310 for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Sun, 3 Nov 2002 07:55:12 -0500 (EST)
Received: from uwo.ca (hs7-21.onemeg.uwo.ca [129.100.7.21]) by
          femail.its.uwo.ca (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gA3Ct1I6001916 for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Sun, 3 Nov 2002 07:55:03 -0500 (EST)
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1)
            Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <3DC56B67.12748.49947B9@localhost>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID:  <3DC51CA3.2040508@uwo.ca>
Date:         Sun, 3 Nov 2002 07:54:59 -0500
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         jcummins <jcummins@UWO.CA>
Subject: Re: E.coli
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732020
Status: U

Hi Roberto,
You are making a very good point about the bacterium E. coli, however,
the press have taken to using the term E. coli for E. coli strain
0157:H7 the very toxic human killer. That strain is carried by farm
animals ,mainly cows, who show no symptoms but can cause human death
from exposure to water, poorly cooked meat or fruits and vegetables
exposed to fresh manure or runoff from pastures. In Ontario a community
water supply was poisoned leading to about seven deaths and thousands
seriously injured many of the children will face kidney transplant as
they age. Most community water must be monitored for fecal coliforms
(see below) a water pollution indicator while E. coli itself is
frequently monitored but is frequently elevated in dug wells (rather
than drilled wells). E coli free of strain o157:H7 is not normally a
threat but should be fixed with a dose of household bleach to the well.
Hope that helps, Cheers, Joe
http://www.epa.gov/maia/html/fecal.html
Fecal Coliform

What are Fecal Coliforms?
Fecal coliforms are bacteria that live in the digestive tract of
warm-blooded animals (humans, pets, farm animals, and wildlife) and are
excreted in the feces. In themselves, fecal coliforms generally do not
pose a danger to people or animals but they indicate the presence of
other disease-causing bacteria, such as those that cause typhoid,
dysentery, hepatitis A, and cholera.

Unlike fecal coliforms, disease-causing bacteria generally do not
survive long enough in the water, outside the body of animals, to be
detected. This makes their direct monitoring difficult. So scientists
and public health officials consider the presence of fecal coliforms an
indicator of disease bacteria in the water.

Why Should We Be Concerned?
Fecal coliforms and disease-causing bacteria live in water. We drink
water, bathe and swim in water, and eat fish who live in water. Storm
DrainThe filter-feeding nature of organisms such as oysters, clams, and
mussels can result in the bioaccumulation of bacteria, protozoa, and
viruses. The bacteria concentrated in the shellfish by this method of
feeding are not harmful to the shellfish, but can be harmful to people
that consume the shellfish, especially when eaten raw. Uncooked
contaminated shellfish can result in a variety of diseases ranging from
a mild food poisoning (Vibrio parahaemolyticus) to the more severe
cholera (Vibrio cholerae; no cases reported in the U.S. since 1991), or
paralytic shellfish poisoning (due to a toxin produced by algae and
associated with red tide).

Fecal contamination can arise from sources such as combined sewer
overflows, leaking septic tanks, sewer malfunction, contaminated storm
drains, animal feedlots, and other sources. Rainfall is frequently
associated with increased abundance of fecal coliforms in water due to
stormwater runoff.

These bacteria are important indicators for the health of recreational,
drinking, and shellfishing waters. Fecal coliforms are sampled and
tested for in surface and ground water (drinking water, lakes, rivers,
and ponds) as well as estuaries and ocean waters (shell fishing beds,
beaches, boating areas). Both abundance and frequency of detection can
be used as an indication of the level of contamination.

The persistent presence of fecal coliforms can lead to Boil Water
Advisories from local utilities, beach closures, and/or shellfish bans.
Beyond the public health-related impact, the economic cost to the
community due to Boil Water Advisories or shellfishing bans can be
considerable. Another important reason for monitoring fecal coliforms is
the importance of human health in areas of active shellfishing.

What are we doing in MAIA?
Since fecal coliforms are an indicator of fecal contamination in
drinking water and recreational areas (lakes, rivers, ponds, estuaries,
and ocean waters), federal and state standards have been implemented to
monitor fecal coliform levels within each state. If coliform levels are
exceeded, corrective action is taken immediately and public notice is
given. In addition, the USEPA has instituted the Section 319 National
Monitoring Program, which includes sampling for fecal coliforms. This
work has been completed within various watersheds, including those
located in North Carolina and Pennsylvania.

A joint federal, state, and shellfish industry cooperative program, the
National Shellfish Sanitation Program (NSSP) enforces regulatory
requirements, which monitors fecal coliform levels (and other
contaminants of concern) in an effort to ensure dependable shellfish to
the public. Many state programs, including the Virginia Department of
Health's Office of Water Program (VDH OWP) Department of Shellfish
Sanitation (DSS), also enforce these NSSP requirements. This is
completed through state shoreline surveys and sampling programs, which
test specifically for fecal coliforms. Some states, including New
Jersey, have even implemented statewide mandatory beach protection
programs. These programs include testing for fecal coliforms. In the
event that the fecal coliform standard is exceeded, New Jersey has
implemented mandatory closure requirements for affected locations.

What can I do?

     * Properly maintain your septic system, pump it out regularly, and
replace it when necessary.
     * If possible, convert from a septic system to a municipal sewer
system.
     * Pick up pet waste and flush it down the toilet. Municipal sewer
systems treat sewage.
     * Use fencing to control the access of farm animals to rivers and
streams.
     * Properly store and manage manure.


Roberto Verzola wrote:
> Can someone pls explain why E.coli is considered a pathogen?
> Doesn't it exist naturally in our gut? How can it be harmful? Aren't
> they in fact an essential part of our gut ecology?
>
> I know that the presence of E.coli is considered an indication of
> fecal contamination, because the E.coli in our gut also appear in
> human waste. So, a high E.coli count in water means fecal
> contamination. But that doesn't make E.coli itself a pathogen, does
> it?
>
> Roberto Verzola
> Philippines
>

.

From - Sun Nov 03 08:08:33 2002
X-UIDL: 322732020
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id ACF98E6A0040; Sun, 03 Nov 2002 07:56:28 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id ACFA61950042; Sun, 03 Nov 2002 07:56:26 -0500
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNS1GYBJ; Sun, 3 Nov 2002 07:55:38 -0500
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Sun Nov 03 07:55:34 2002 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 22038 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sun, 3 Nov 2002 07:55:31 -0500
Received: from 129.100.2.63 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Sun, 3 Nov 2002 07:55:30 -0400
Received: from femail.its.uwo.ca (hurdle.its.uwo.ca [129.100.2.108]) by
          pony.its.uwo.ca (8.12.6/8.12.0) with ESMTP id gA3CtC96017310 for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Sun, 3 Nov 2002 07:55:12 -0500 (EST)
Received: from uwo.ca (hs7-21.onemeg.uwo.ca [129.100.7.21]) by
          femail.its.uwo.ca (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gA3Ct1I6001916 for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Sun, 3 Nov 2002 07:55:03 -0500 (EST)
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1)
            Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <3DC56B67.12748.49947B9@localhost>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID:  <3DC51CA3.2040508@uwo.ca>
Date:         Sun, 3 Nov 2002 07:54:59 -0500
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         jcummins <jcummins@UWO.CA>
Subject: Re: E.coli
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732020
Status: U

Hi Roberto,
You are making a very good point about the bacterium E. coli, however,
the press have taken to using the term E. coli for E. coli strain
0157:H7 the very toxic human killer. That strain is carried by farm
animals ,mainly cows, who show no symptoms but can cause human death
from exposure to water, poorly cooked meat or fruits and vegetables
exposed to fresh manure or runoff from pastures. In Ontario a community
water supply was poisoned leading to about seven deaths and thousands
seriously injured many of the children will face kidney transplant as
they age. Most community water must be monitored for fecal coliforms
(see below) a water pollution indicator while E. coli itself is
frequently monitored but is frequently elevated in dug wells (rather
than drilled wells). E coli free of strain o157:H7 is not normally a
threat but should be fixed with a dose of household bleach to the well.
Hope that helps, Cheers, Joe
http://www.epa.gov/maia/html/fecal.html
Fecal Coliform

What are Fecal Coliforms?
Fecal coliforms are bacteria that live in the digestive tract of
warm-blooded animals (humans, pets, farm animals, and wildlife) and are
excreted in the feces. In themselves, fecal coliforms generally do not
pose a danger to people or animals but they indicate the presence of
other disease-causing bacteria, such as those that cause typhoid,
dysentery, hepatitis A, and cholera.

Unlike fecal coliforms, disease-causing bacteria generally do not
survive long enough in the water, outside the body of animals, to be
detected. This makes their direct monitoring difficult. So scientists
and public health officials consider the presence of fecal coliforms an
indicator of disease bacteria in the water.

Why Should We Be Concerned?
Fecal coliforms and disease-causing bacteria live in water. We drink
water, bathe and swim in water, and eat fish who live in water. Storm
DrainThe filter-feeding nature of organisms such as oysters, clams, and
mussels can result in the bioaccumulation of bacteria, protozoa, and
viruses. The bacteria concentrated in the shellfish by this method of
feeding are not harmful to the shellfish, but can be harmful to people
that consume the shellfish, especially when eaten raw. Uncooked
contaminated shellfish can result in a variety of diseases ranging from
a mild food poisoning (Vibrio parahaemolyticus) to the more severe
cholera (Vibrio cholerae; no cases reported in the U.S. since 1991), or
paralytic shellfish poisoning (due to a toxin produced by algae and
associated with red tide).

Fecal contamination can arise from sources such as combined sewer
overflows, leaking septic tanks, sewer malfunction, contaminated storm
drains, animal feedlots, and other sources. Rainfall is frequently
associated with increased abundance of fecal coliforms in water due to
stormwater runoff.

These bacteria are important indicators for the health of recreational,
drinking, and shellfishing waters. Fecal coliforms are sampled and
tested for in surface and ground water (drinking water, lakes, rivers,
and ponds) as well as estuaries and ocean waters (shell fishing beds,
beaches, boating areas). Both abundance and frequency of detection can
be used as an indication of the level of contamination.

The persistent presence of fecal coliforms can lead to Boil Water
Advisories from local utilities, beach closures, and/or shellfish bans.
Beyond the public health-related impact, the economic cost to the
community due to Boil Water Advisories or shellfishing bans can be
considerable. Another important reason for monitoring fecal coliforms is
the importance of human health in areas of active shellfishing.

What are we doing in MAIA?
Since fecal coliforms are an indicator of fecal contamination in
drinking water and recreational areas (lakes, rivers, ponds, estuaries,
and ocean waters), federal and state standards have been implemented to
monitor fecal coliform levels within each state. If coliform levels are
exceeded, corrective action is taken immediately and public notice is
given. In addition, the USEPA has instituted the Section 319 National
Monitoring Program, which includes sampling for fecal coliforms. This
work has been completed within various watersheds, including those
located in North Carolina and Pennsylvania.

A joint federal, state, and shellfish industry cooperative program, the
National Shellfish Sanitation Program (NSSP) enforces regulatory
requirements, which monitors fecal coliform levels (and other
contaminants of concern) in an effort to ensure dependable shellfish to
the public. Many state programs, including the Virginia Department of
Health's Office of Water Program (VDH OWP) Department of Shellfish
Sanitation (DSS), also enforce these NSSP requirements. This is
completed through state shoreline surveys and sampling programs, which
test specifically for fecal coliforms. Some states, including New
Jersey, have even implemented statewide mandatory beach protection
programs. These programs include testing for fecal coliforms. In the
event that the fecal coliform standard is exceeded, New Jersey has
implemented mandatory closure requirements for affected locations.

What can I do?

     * Properly maintain your septic system, pump it out regularly, and
replace it when necessary.
     * If possible, convert from a septic system to a municipal sewer
system.
     * Pick up pet waste and flush it down the toilet. Municipal sewer
systems treat sewage.
     * Use fencing to control the access of farm animals to rivers and
streams.
     * Properly store and manage manure.


Roberto Verzola wrote:
> Can someone pls explain why E.coli is considered a pathogen?
> Doesn't it exist naturally in our gut? How can it be harmful? Aren't
> they in fact an essential part of our gut ecology?
>
> I know that the presence of E.coli is considered an indication of
> fecal contamination, because the E.coli in our gut also appear in
> human waste. So, a high E.coli count in water means fecal
> contamination. But that doesn't make E.coli itself a pathogen, does
> it?
>
> Roberto Verzola
> Philippines
>

.

From - Sun Nov 03 08:08:32 2002
X-UIDL: 322732019
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AC7E7B5A0142; Sun, 03 Nov 2002 07:54:22 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AC7C617D0042; Sun, 03 Nov 2002 07:54:20 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNS1GXWZ; Sun, 3 Nov 2002 07:53:32 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 22034 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sun, 3 Nov 2002 07:53:29 -0500
Received: from 209.226.175.40 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Sun, 3 Nov 2002 07:53:29 -0400
Received: from windows98 ([65.94.128.148]) by tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net
          (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with SMTP id
          <20021103125311.HSPO23285.tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net@windows98> for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Sun, 3 Nov 2002 07:53:11 -0500
References:  <3DC56B67.12748.49947B9@localhost>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Message-ID:  <001e01c28339$6d1bace0$6501a8c0@sympatico.ca>
Date:         Sun, 3 Nov 2002 08:02:21 -0500
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Frank Teuton <fteuton@SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: E.coli
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732019
Status: U

Hi Robert,

See

http://people.ku.edu/~jbrown/ecoli.html

http://www.bact.wisc.edu/Bact330/lectureecoli

http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~mow/chap15.html

http://www.epa.gov/safewater/ecoli.html

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dbmd/diseaseinfo/escherichiacoli_g.htm

http://www.about-ecoli.com/main.html

http://www.about-ecoli.com/page5.htm

These last two sites are maintained by a law firm that does tort work, with
food contamination cases being a specialty.

'Nuff said.

Frank Teuton


----- Original Message -----
From: "Roberto Verzola" <rverzola@GN.APC.ORG>
To: <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 5:31 AM
Subject: [SANET-MG] E.coli


> Can someone pls explain why E.coli is considered a pathogen?
> Doesn't it exist naturally in our gut? How can it be harmful? Aren't
> they in fact an essential part of our gut ecology?
>
> I know that the presence of E.coli is considered an indication of
> fecal contamination, because the E.coli in our gut also appear in
> human waste. So, a high E.coli count in water means fecal
> contamination. But that doesn't make E.coli itself a pathogen, does
> it?
>
> Roberto Verzola
> Philippines
>

.

From - Sun Nov 03 08:48:32 2002
X-UIDL: 322732021
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A5A52CA40098; Sun, 03 Nov 2002 08:33:25 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A5A366AF003E; Sun, 03 Nov 2002 08:33:23 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNS1GYW4; Sun, 3 Nov 2002 08:33:28 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 22041 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sun, 3 Nov 2002 08:33:25 -0500
Received: from 209.226.175.52 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Sun, 3 Nov 2002 08:33:25 -0400
Received: from windows98 ([65.94.128.148]) by tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net
          (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with SMTP id
          <20021103133306.BPJX14232.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@windows98> for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Sun, 3 Nov 2002 08:33:06 -0500
References:  <3DC56B67.12748.49947B9@localhost> 
             <001e01c28339$6d1bace0$6501a8c0@sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Message-ID:  <002701c2833f$013f5020$6501a8c0@sympatico.ca>
Date:         Sun, 3 Nov 2002 08:35:17 -0500
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Frank Teuton <fteuton@SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: E.coli
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732021
Status: U

One more addition, listing the various strains of potentially pathogenic
E.coli :

http://web.bham.ac.uk/bcm4ght6/path/path.html


----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Teuton" <fteuton@SYMPATICO.CA>
To: <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 8:02 AM
Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] E.coli


> Hi Robert,
>
> See
>
> http://people.ku.edu/~jbrown/ecoli.html
>
> http://www.bact.wisc.edu/Bact330/lectureecoli
>
> http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~mow/chap15.html
>
> http://www.epa.gov/safewater/ecoli.html
>
> http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dbmd/diseaseinfo/escherichiacoli_g.htm
>
> http://www.about-ecoli.com/main.html
>
> http://www.about-ecoli.com/page5.htm
>
> These last two sites are maintained by a law firm that does tort work,
with
> food contamination cases being a specialty.
>
> 'Nuff said.
>
> Frank Teuton
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roberto Verzola" <rverzola@GN.APC.ORG>
> To: <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
> Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 5:31 AM
> Subject: [SANET-MG] E.coli
>
>
> > Can someone pls explain why E.coli is considered a pathogen?
> > Doesn't it exist naturally in our gut? How can it be harmful? Aren't
> > they in fact an essential part of our gut ecology?
> >
> > I know that the presence of E.coli is considered an indication of
> > fecal contamination, because the E.coli in our gut also appear in
> > human waste. So, a high E.coli count in water means fecal
> > contamination. But that doesn't make E.coli itself a pathogen, does
> > it?
> >
> > Roberto Verzola
> > Philippines
> >
>

.

From - Sun Nov 03 22:28:57 2002
X-UIDL: 322732065
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A5E98237013C; Sun, 03 Nov 2002 22:13:45 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A5E97AA6003E; Sun, 03 Nov 2002 22:13:45 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNS1HDW7; Sun, 3 Nov 2002 22:13:53 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 0141 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sun, 3 Nov 2002 22:13:50 -0500
Received: from 213.55.2.205 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Sun, 3 Nov 2002 22:13:50 -0500
Received: from default (unknown [210.23.216.70]) by mail.gn.apc.org (Postfix)
          with ESMTP id 8171314B695 for <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Mon,  4
          Nov 2002 03:13:25 +0000 (GMT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Content-description: Mail message body
Message-ID:  <3DC653AF.25993.162775D@localhost>
Date:         Mon, 4 Nov 2002 11:02:07 +0800
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Roberto Verzola <rverzola@GN.APC.ORG>
Subject: E.coli
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732065
Status: U

My thanks to Joe Cummins and Frank Teuton for the E.coli
explanation.

So far, this is what I've learned:

- most of hundreds of E.coli strains are harmless (in fact, we need
the E.coli inside our gut because they produce some vitamins for
us)

- a few strains are harmful, and the one which has received the
most coverage recently is the O157:H7 strain, which causes a form
of diarrhea which can be fatal.

- the presence of E.coli in water is used as *indicator*. While the
E.coli itself may not be harmful, its presence implies possible fecal
contamination of the water. Such fecal contamination means other
contaminants -- this time pathogenic -- may also be present.

- E.coli is both aerobic and anaerobic (ie, it can survive in either
environment); this seems to contradict recent exchanges on Sanet
re compost teas which implied that aeration kills E.coli. Apparently
not. Can Elaine Ingram clarify this?

- E.coli has been the most common target of bacterial genetic
engineering. ie, all kinds of genes and plasmids have been inserted
into E.coli. Another question for Joe Cummins: is it possible that
these genetic manipulations created the pathogenic strains of
E.coli?

Regards to all,

Roberto Verzola
Philippines

.

From - Sun Nov 03 23:48:57 2002
X-UIDL: 322732070
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AA444377003A; Sun, 03 Nov 2002 23:40:36 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AA3C2EE30210; Sun, 03 Nov 2002 23:40:28 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNS1HFNY; Sun, 3 Nov 2002 23:40:36 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 0157 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sun, 3 Nov 2002 23:40:33 -0500
Received: from 129.100.2.63 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Sun, 3 Nov 2002 23:40:33 -0500
Received: from femail.its.uwo.ca (hurdle.its.uwo.ca [129.100.2.108]) by
          pony.its.uwo.ca (8.12.6/8.12.0) with ESMTP id gA44eD96013034 for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Sun, 3 Nov 2002 23:40:14 -0500 (EST)
Received: from uwo.ca (hs7-21.onemeg.uwo.ca [129.100.7.21]) by
          femail.its.uwo.ca (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gA44e8I6005436 for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Sun, 3 Nov 2002 23:40:10 -0500 (EST)
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1)
            Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <3DC653AF.25993.162775D@localhost>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID:  <3DC5FA27.1000209@uwo.ca>
Date:         Sun, 3 Nov 2002 23:40:07 -0500
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         jcummins <jcummins@UWO.CA>
Subject: Re: E.coli
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732070
Status: U

Hi Roberto,
In reply to your question as to whether or not E coli 0157:H7 and the
other verotoxin toxin strains acquired the toxin gene by laboratory
genetic engineering. There has been serious discussion in the literature
debating that point. There is evidence that the verotoxin genes can be
transmitted born on a transducing bacteriaphage (meaning that the toxin
genes may be transmitted between bacteria on a virus). It seems most
likely that the transfer of the toxin genes is a natural phenomenon and
one amplified by growing problem of the proximity of farm animals and
people, feedlot fattening of range cattle in the corn county has created
a lot of poop near fruit and vegetable farms and near main municipal wells.
The people made ill have bloody diarrhea but most of those killed or
crippled suffer kidney and later other organ damage from the verotoxin.
It has been claimed that the pasture or feedlot  run off of the bacteria
can be greatly reduced by adding the plastic , polyacrylamide, to the
pasture soil.
Hope this discussion helps, Cheers, Joe

Roberto Verzola wrote:
> My thanks to Joe Cummins and Frank Teuton for the E.coli
> explanation.
>
> So far, this is what I've learned:
>
> - most of hundreds of E.coli strains are harmless (in fact, we need
> the E.coli inside our gut because they produce some vitamins for
> us)
>
> - a few strains are harmful, and the one which has received the
> most coverage recently is the O157:H7 strain, which causes a form
> of diarrhea which can be fatal.
>
> - the presence of E.coli in water is used as *indicator*. While the
> E.coli itself may not be harmful, its presence implies possible fecal
> contamination of the water. Such fecal contamination means other
> contaminants -- this time pathogenic -- may also be present.
>
> - E.coli is both aerobic and anaerobic (ie, it can survive in either
> environment); this seems to contradict recent exchanges on Sanet
> re compost teas which implied that aeration kills E.coli. Apparently
> not. Can Elaine Ingram clarify this?
>
> - E.coli has been the most common target of bacterial genetic
> engineering. ie, all kinds of genes and plasmids have been inserted
> into E.coli. Another question for Joe Cummins: is it possible that
> these genetic manipulations created the pathogenic strains of
> E.coli?
>
> Regards to all,
>
> Roberto Verzola
> Philippines
>

.

From - Mon Nov 04 05:39:00 2002
X-UIDL: 322732077
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AA8A235C00BE; Mon, 04 Nov 2002 05:23:06 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AA8A47440062; Mon, 04 Nov 2002 05:23:06 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNS1H25X; Mon, 4 Nov 2002 05:23:10 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 0028 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 4 Nov 2002 05:23:07 -0500
Received: from 152.163.225.101 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Mon, 4 Nov 2002 05:23:07 -0500
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-r05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id
          d.118.1a2ceb37 (16633) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Mon, 4 Nov
          2002 05:22:41 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="part1_118.1a2ceb37.2af7a470_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows AU sub 10503
Message-ID:  <118.1a2ceb37.2af7a470@aol.com>
Date:         Mon, 4 Nov 2002 05:22:40 EST
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: E.coli
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732077
Status: U

--part1_118.1a2ceb37.2af7a470_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Ok, let's go over this again.

E. coli out-competes other organisms only in reduced oxygen conditions.  If
E. coli actually could out-compete aerobic organisms, then it would NOT be
useful as an indicator of human pathogens.  Human pathogens require the
conditions in human digestive systems in order to grow - lack of oxygen is
important.  Can you grow Salmonella aerobically?  Sure, in the lab.  But for
Salmonella to survive and grow in food, to give food poisoning problems, the
temperature of the food has to be warm enough, but not too warm, which means
oxygen in the food is limited AND competing organisms are limited.

PLEASE, understand that microbiologists are missing the point when they say
that E. coli can grow aerobically.  It does happen, but ONLY IF competing
aerobic organisms are not present.  Very particular growth conditions are
required.  You must select against the growth of other aerobic organisms.
So, in the lab, the right temperature, rich medium, often antibiotics, and NO
SIGNIFICANT NUMBERS OF COMPETING BACTERIA are all required to grow E. coli in
fully aerobic conditions.

That's what most laboratory, not-familiar-with-the-real-world,
work-with-only-one-species-at-a-time microbiologists don't understand.
Competition is important in the real world.

If you want, you can ask whoever is saying E. coli grows aerobically where
their scientific data are, and I'll be happy to point out where they are
missing the point.

The head of the composting program at the USDA  in Beltsville visited me once
and mentioned an experience where composted manure was tested and E. coli was
not detected.  They put the compost out into a field, and a few days later
detected E. coli.  This person used that example to say that E.coli can come
back to life in compost.

Really?  Ask the appropriate question:  Were there E. coli in the field soil
BEFORE they added the compost?  No answer to that question when I asked it.
I have never seen that paper published either, although I must admit to not
particularly looking for it.  It may have gotten past reviewers who don't
know much about holistic systems.

Here's another example - We take cultures of E. coli and dump them in soil.
If the soil has a healthy foodweb, you will not detect E. coli in 24 hours.
Ah, but if the soil is not healthy, and lacks good structure, you can detect
E. coli for many days.

It's the NORMAL life that is important.  If there are no competitors, no
consumers, no inhibitors, then E. coli may do ok.

Think about your hands.  Every time you visit the bathroom, you potentially
pick up E. coli.  But you aren't swarming with E. coli.  Washing your hands?
But that's just soap, why would that kill E. coli?  You have lots and lots of
bacteria and some fungi on your skin surfaces, and they compete with, inhibit
and consume E .coli.  Only if you are sick, and something severely disrupts
the foods your skin puts out to feed the beneficial bacteria and fungi, will
E. coli be able to survive, and maybe even grow.

If E. coli survived as well in aerobic conditions as it does in anaerobic, E.
coli would not be useful as an indicator of human pathogens.  What would kill
E. coli in the real world, if it could grow just as well aerobically as it
does in reduced oxygen conditions in your digestive system? E. coli would be
everywhere, but it isn't.

Why?

Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
www.soilfoodweb.com

--part1_118.1a2ceb37.2af7a470_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">Ok, let's go over this again.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
E. coli out-competes other organisms only in reduced oxygen conditions.&nbsp; If E. coli actually could out-compete aerobic organisms, then it would NOT be useful as an indicator of human pathogens.&nbsp; Human pathogens require the conditions in human digestive systems in order to grow - lack of oxygen is important.&nbsp; Can you grow Salmonella aerobically?&nbsp; Sure, in the lab.&nbsp; But for Salmonella to survive and grow in food, to give food poisoning problems, the temperature of the food has to be warm enough, but not too warm, which means oxygen in the food is limited AND competing organisms are limited.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
PLEASE, understand that microbiologists are missing the point when they say that E. coli can grow aerobically.&nbsp; It does happen, but ONLY IF competing aerobic organisms are not present.&nbsp; Very particular growth conditions are required.&nbsp; You must select against the growth of other aerobic organisms.&nbsp; So, in the lab, the right temperature, rich medium, often antibiotics, and NO SIGNIFICANT NUMBERS OF COMPETING BACTERIA are all required to grow E. coli in fully aerobic conditions. <BR>
<BR>
That's what most laboratory, not-familiar-with-the-real-world, work-with-only-one-species-at-a-time microbiologists don't understand.&nbsp; Competition is important in the real world.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
If you want, you can ask whoever is saying E. coli grows aerobically where their scientific data are, and I'll be happy to point out where they are missing the point.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
The head of the composting program at the USDA&nbsp; in Beltsville visited me once and mentioned an experience where composted manure was tested and E. coli was not detected.&nbsp; They put the compost out into a field, and a few days later detected E. coli.&nbsp; This person used that example to say that E.coli can come back to life in compost.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Really?&nbsp; Ask the appropriate question:&nbsp; Were there E. coli in the field soil BEFORE they added the compost?&nbsp; No answer to that question when I asked it.&nbsp; <BR>
I have never seen that paper published either, although I must admit to not particularly looking for it.&nbsp; It may have gotten past reviewers who don't know much about holistic systems.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Here's another example - We take cultures of E. coli and dump them in soil.&nbsp; If the soil has a healthy foodweb, you will not detect E. coli in 24 hours.&nbsp; Ah, but if the soil is not healthy, and lacks good structure, you can detect E. coli for many days.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
It's the NORMAL life that is important.&nbsp; If there are no competitors, no consumers, no inhibitors, then E. coli may do ok.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Think about your hands.&nbsp; Every time you visit the bathroom, you potentially pick up E. coli.&nbsp; But you aren't swarming with E. coli.&nbsp; Washing your hands?&nbsp; But that's just soap, why would that kill E. coli?&nbsp; You have lots and lots of bacteria and some fungi on your skin surfaces, and they compete with, inhibit and consume E .coli.&nbsp; Only if you are sick, and something severely disrupts the foods your skin puts out to feed the beneficial bacteria and fungi, will E. coli be able to survive, and maybe even grow. <BR>
<BR>
If E. coli survived as well in aerobic conditions as it does in anaerobic, E. coli would not be useful as an indicator of human pathogens.&nbsp; What would kill E. coli in the real world, if it could grow just as well aerobically as it does in reduced oxygen conditions in your digestive system? E. coli would be everywhere, but it isn't.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Why?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Elaine Ingham<BR>
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.<BR>
www.soilfoodweb.com</FONT></HTML>

--part1_118.1a2ceb37.2af7a470_boundary--

.

From - Mon Nov 04 07:59:01 2002
X-UIDL: 322732078
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AC6556880080; Mon, 04 Nov 2002 07:47:36 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AC661C440270; Mon, 04 Nov 2002 07:47:34 -0500
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNS1HK83; Mon, 4 Nov 2002 07:47:47 -0500
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Mon Nov 04 07:47:30 2002 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 0308 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 4 Nov 2002 07:47:25 -0500
Received: from 217.172.181.24 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Mon, 4 Nov 2002 07:47:25 -0500
Received: from lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (p5084106A.dip.t-dialin.net [80.132.16.106])
          by berlin024.server4free.de (8.11.3/) with ESMTP id gA4Cl8J05540 for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Mon, 4 Nov 2002 13:47:09 +0100
Received: from wiegand (wiegand.lufa-sp.vdlufa.de [192.168.1.37]) by
          lufa-sp.vdlufa.de (8.9.3/8.9.3/SuSE Linux 8.9.3-0.1) with ESMTP id
          NAA29961 for <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Mon, 4 Nov 2002 13:45:58
          +0100
Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12aDE)
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
Message-ID:  <200211041245.NAA29961@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de>
Date:         Mon, 4 Nov 2002 13:45:58 +0100
Reply-To:     wiegand@lufa-speyer.de
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Klaus Wiegand <wiegand@LUFA-SPEYER.DE>
Organization: LUFA Speyer
Subject: Re: E.coli
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <118.1a2ceb37.2af7a470@aol.com>
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732078
Status: U

On 4 Nov 02, at 5:22, Elaine Ingham wrote:

>Ok, let's go over this again.

>PLEASE, understand that microbiologists are missing the point
>when they say that E. coli can grow aerobically.

please understand, that soil scientists are missing the point, when
they say the E. coli cannot grow aerobically.

a) ever heard of escherichia switching to mixed-acid-production
(lactic/butryl/acetic and some others) under aerobic conditions ?
b) ever seen them them grow in tatar (minced meat) in a kitchen,
where mother will not die from asphyxation ?
c) ever wondered, why they grow perfectly well on almost any
growth medium like conkey, mda or pda in petri-dishes with these
nice special knobs on the bottom (for air supply) ?
d) one of the major site of nosocomial infection  (30% of all
infections) are pneumonias. hardly the proclaimed anaerobic
conditions you assume.

general rule of thumb is, that e. coli will survive up to 9 months in
soil contaminated with them by sewage or sewage sludge (agricola
or ovid life science should give appropriate results)


>So, in the lab, the right temperature, rich medium, often
>antibiotics, and NO SIGNIFICANT NUMBERS OF COMPETING
>BACTERIA are all required to grow E. coli in
>fully aerobic conditions.

uhhuhh, we find them quite often in cheap foodstuff (when MBM
was still allowed, we found them regularely in 70% of mixtures
containing MBM)  with the usual aerobic colony counts of 10 ^8 to
10 ^9 / gr - incubation in usual temperature chambers (overgrown in
foodstuff with colony numbers above). simple pretesting by vicam,
our experienced technicians have a success rate of about 90%
counterchecked by serology.


>If you want, you can ask whoever is saying E. coli grows
>aerobically where their scientific data are, and I'll be happy to point out where they are
>missing the point.


done by this mail. questions see above under a) to d)





klaus

.

From - Mon Nov 04 11:39:01 2002
X-UIDL: 322732085
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AED7885E013C; Mon, 04 Nov 2002 11:22:47 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AED511D40294; Mon, 04 Nov 2002 11:22:45 -0500
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNS1HWCV; Mon, 4 Nov 2002 11:22:03 -0500
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Mon Nov 04 11:22:00 2002 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 0699 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 4 Nov 2002 11:21:55 -0500
Received: from 152.163.225.101 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Mon, 4 Nov 2002 11:21:55 -0500
Received: from Aquatfs@aol.com by imo-r05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id
          d.68.28263e33 (16781) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Mon, 4 Nov
          2002 11:21:33 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="part1_68.28263e33.2af7f88d_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10641
Message-ID:  <68.28263e33.2af7f88d@aol.com>
Date:         Mon, 4 Nov 2002 11:21:33 EST
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Aquatfs@AOL.COM
Subject: Pathogens: problem of the cause or cause of the problem
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732085
Status: U

--part1_68.28263e33.2af7f88d_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 11/3/2002 9:00:42 PM Pacific Standard Time,
LISTSERV@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU writes:


> E.coli has been the most common target of bacterial genetic
> engineering. ie, all kinds of genes and plasmids have been inserted
> into E.coli. Another question for Joe Cummins: is it possible that
> these genetic manipulations created the pathogenic strains of
> E.coli?
>

This brings up the interesting debate between Pasteur and Bechamp: how
important is the environment in the propagation of pathogens? If a growth
medium (human, animal, plant, soil, etc.) manifests pathogens, is this the
result of contamination from external sources and/or the result of amenable
growth conditions? Do pathogens and microorganisms in general evolve of their
own accord or respond to changes in the growing environment? While
manipulation of microorganisms can result in the creation of new strains, it
is important to remember that they need a suitable environment to grow in. I
would suggest that the corruption of farming and animal husbandry practices
has resulted in an environment that is currently more suitable for pathogens.

As Albrecht would have emphasized, it is not the invader that we must worry
about, but the condition of the host. I will stick my neck out and suggest
that the old adage that garbage in equals garbage out applies very well to
food production. Albrecht's biotic pyramid with soil at the base and humans
at the apex (no implication of superiority, refers only to the food chain)
suggests that  growth is a process and very dependent on the inputs. While
pathogens can be an input, there are many other variables that define the
environment and whether pathogens can propagate.

The greatest issue at this juncture is whether pathogens are "endemic" and
the "natural" consequence of farming and animal husbandry; or whether they
are the consequence of misguided farming and animal husbandry practices. I
believe that the latter to be true. Inferior practices can lead to the
propagation and susceptibility of soils, plants, and animals to pathogens. I
would even suggest that superior practices can lead to the protection from
pathogens. You can''t grow water lilies in the sand.

Alan Ismond, P.Eng.
Aqua-Terra Consultants

--part1_68.28263e33.2af7f88d_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">In a message dated 11/3/2002 9:00:42 PM Pacific Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">E.coli has been the most common target of bacterial genetic<BR>
engineering. ie, all kinds of genes and plasmids have been inserted<BR>
into E.coli. Another question for Joe Cummins: is it possible that<BR>
these genetic manipulations created the pathogenic strains of<BR>
E.coli?<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
This brings up the interesting debate between Pasteur and Bechamp: how important is the environment in the propagation of pathogens? If a growth medium (human, animal, plant, soil, etc.) manifests pathogens, is this the result of contamination from external sources and/or the result of amenable growth conditions? Do pathogens and microorganisms in general evolve of their own accord or respond to changes in the growing environment? While manipulation of microorganisms can result in the creation of new strains, it is important to remember that they need a suitable environment to grow in. I would suggest that the corruption of farming and animal husbandry practices has resulted in an environment that is currently more suitable for pathogens.<BR>
<BR>
As Albrecht would have emphasized, it is not the invader that we must worry about, but the condition of the host. I will stick my neck out and suggest that the old adage that garbage in equals garbage out applies very well to food production. Albrecht's biotic pyramid with soil at the base and humans at the apex (no implication of superiority, refers only to the food chain) suggests that&nbsp; growth is a process and very dependent on the inputs. While pathogens can be an input, there are many other variables that define the environment and whether pathogens can propagate.<BR>
<BR>
The greatest issue at this juncture is whether pathogens are "endemic" and the "natural" consequence of farming and animal husbandry; or whether they are the consequence of misguided farming and animal husbandry practices. I believe that the latter to be true. Inferior practices can lead to the propagation and susceptibility of soils, plants, and animals to pathogens. I would even suggest that superior practices can lead to the protection from pathogens. You can''t grow water lilies in the sand.<BR>
<BR>
Alan Ismond, P.Eng.<BR>
Aqua-Terra Consultants</FONT></HTML>

--part1_68.28263e33.2af7f88d_boundary--

.

From - Mon Nov 04 13:19:02 2002
X-UIDL: 322732100
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A7D669EC003A; Mon, 04 Nov 2002 13:09:26 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A7CF93890042; Mon, 04 Nov 2002 13:09:19 -0500
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNS1H9GQ; Mon, 4 Nov 2002 13:08:35 -0500
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Mon Nov 04 13:08:32 2002 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 1427 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 4 Nov 2002 13:08:27 -0500
Received: from 209.226.175.53 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Mon, 4 Nov 2002 13:08:27 -0500
Received: from windows98 ([65.94.128.148]) by tomts9-srv.bellnexxia.net
          (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with SMTP id
          <20021104180808.TPQI8707.tomts9-srv.bellnexxia.net@windows98>; Mon, 4
          Nov 2002 13:08:08 -0500
References:  <200211041245.NAA29961@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Message-ID:  <000f01c2842e$924431e0$6501a8c0@sympatico.ca>
Date:         Mon, 4 Nov 2002 13:18:24 -0500
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Frank Teuton <fteuton@SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: E.coli
Comments: To: wiegand@lufa-speyer.de
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732100
Status: U

Hi Klaus,

Elaine's point is one you missed completely. She knows that E. coli can grow
under aerobic conditions, but only when suitable competition and predation
is lacking.

Using www.google.com I did a bit of searching for 'E.coli survival soil' and
found some interesting morsels:

www.research.teagasc.ie/vteceurope/S+Gprog/boltonsg.html

" In general, sterile distilled water promoted the survival of the organism.
At 15°C in the laboratory, for example, a 1.5 log10 cfu/ml reduction was
observed after 31 days when the initial inoculum level was 3 log10 cfu/ml.
This contrasts with the disappearance of the organism in farm water after 10
days under the same conditions."

.......

"Wang and Doyle (1998), in studies on the survival of a mixture of five
E.coli O157 strains in municipal, reservoir and lake water, recorded
survival times of approximately 50 to 80 days. Rice et al. (1992) made
similar findings. These contrast with the results reported in this paper,
which suggest the organism declines more rapidly and may be undetectable in
as short a period of time as 7 days. Such inconsistencies in survival data
for E.coli O157 may be due to differing microflora in the water samples. "

Hold onto that thought, Klaus, and consider Elaine's full contention:
[aerobic growth of E.coli] " It does happen, but ONLY IF competing aerobic
organisms are not present."

And:

"Here's another example - We take cultures of E. coli and dump them in soil.
If the soil has a healthy foodweb, you will not detect E. coli in 24 hours.
Ah, but if the soil is not healthy, and lacks good structure, you can detect
E. coli for many days.  "

So, the range for E.coli survival in soils is contingent on the presence or
absence of a healthy foodweb, per Dr Ingham.

It has long been known that unfinished compost can be reinoculated with
pathogens and fecal coliforms and generate regrowth of those organisms.
Finished compost will not support regrowth. The reason for that is that a
competitive microflora is established in finished compost during the
mesophilic ('curing') phase that controls pathogenic organisms.

It has also been known, but only recently demonstrated repeatedly in the
lab, that vermicomposting brings about rapid destruction of bacterial
pathogens and indicators. This happens around room temperature, unlike
thermophilic composting, and involves the remediation of pathogens and
installation of a competitive microflora happening simultaneously. The exact
mechanisms through which Salmonella, E.coli and other such organisms are
destroyed are not thoroughly understood, but the fact that they are
destroyed is well established. Vermicompost will  not support pathogen
regrowth.

It thus follows that while a 'compost tea' made from underprocessed manure
containing a substantial population of E.coli might indeed lack the
competitive microflora to inhibit pathogen regrowth, which is one
explanation of the Bess study,
a 'compost tea' made from good vermicompost or compost which has a low E.
coli count to start with, plus the inhibitory microbial consortia present,
can logically be expected to behave as Dr Ingham asserts.

Dr Ingham herself suggests that Bess's study reported faulty DO levels, and
that the system must have dipped into the anaerobic zone for the kind of E.
coli growth she obtained to occur. An alternative explanation is one of
microbial absence, the lack of the competitive organisms needed to control
E. coli.

Bess's study does underscore the need for high quality compost in the making
of compost tea for fresh fruit and produce. She demonstrated at least that a
poor compost in a system that looked, and even measured, as aerobic, was
able to generate E.coli growth when fed certain nutrients.

However, this does not refute Dr Ingham's claim that a good quality compost,
with no or low E.coli counts to start with, would not support E.coli growth
in a properly managed compost tea environment.

Her point, if I understood her well, is that in an anaerobic situation E.
coli growth was quite possible due to the inhibition of the normally
controlling aerobes, but that in an aerobic environment with a full foodweb
present, E. coli will not only not increase, but be substantially reduced.

If you can pull yourself out of your cognitive dissonance and deal with the
assertion that is actually being put forward, perhaps we can get somewhere
with this discussion.

http://www.dmu.ac.uk/~jamesa/learning/dissonance.htm

Frank Teuton



----- Original Message -----
From: "Klaus Wiegand" <wiegand@LUFA-SPEYER.DE>
To: <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 7:45 AM
Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] E.coli


> On 4 Nov 02, at 5:22, Elaine Ingham wrote:
>
> >Ok, let's go over this again.
>
> >PLEASE, understand that microbiologists are missing the point
> >when they say that E. coli can grow aerobically.
>
> please understand, that soil scientists are missing the point, when
> they say the E. coli cannot grow aerobically.
>
> a) ever heard of escherichia switching to mixed-acid-production
> (lactic/butryl/acetic and some others) under aerobic conditions ?
> b) ever seen them them grow in tatar (minced meat) in a kitchen,
> where mother will not die from asphyxation ?
> c) ever wondered, why they grow perfectly well on almost any
> growth medium like conkey, mda or pda in petri-dishes with these
> nice special knobs on the bottom (for air supply) ?
> d) one of the major site of nosocomial infection  (30% of all
> infections) are pneumonias. hardly the proclaimed anaerobic
> conditions you assume.
>
> general rule of thumb is, that e. coli will survive up to 9 months in
> soil contaminated with them by sewage or sewage sludge (agricola
> or ovid life science should give appropriate results)
>
>
> >So, in the lab, the right temperature, rich medium, often
> >antibiotics, and NO SIGNIFICANT NUMBERS OF COMPETING
> >BACTERIA are all required to grow E. coli in
> >fully aerobic conditions.
>
> uhhuhh, we find them quite often in cheap foodstuff (when MBM
> was still allowed, we found them regularely in 70% of mixtures
> containing MBM)  with the usual aerobic colony counts of 10 ^8 to
> 10 ^9 / gr - incubation in usual temperature chambers (overgrown in
> foodstuff with colony numbers above). simple pretesting by vicam,
> our experienced technicians have a success rate of about 90%
> counterchecked by serology.
>
>
> >If you want, you can ask whoever is saying E. coli grows
> >aerobically where their scientific data are, and I'll be happy to point
out where they are
> >missing the point.
>
>
> done by this mail. questions see above under a) to d)
>
>
>
>
>
> klaus

.

From - Mon Nov 04 16:09:21 2002
X-UIDL: 322732125
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AED011F600C2; Mon, 04 Nov 2002 15:55:44 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AEC21CA8029E; Mon, 04 Nov 2002 15:55:30 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNS12F01; Mon, 4 Nov 2002 15:55:49 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 1522 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 4 Nov 2002 15:55:44 -0500
Received: from 152.163.225.103 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Mon, 4 Nov 2002 15:55:44 -0500
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-r07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id
          d.1a1.b296e32 (4552) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Mon, 4 Nov
          2002 15:55:24 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="part1_1a1.b296e32.2af838bc_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows AU sub 10503
Message-ID:  <1a1.b296e32.2af838bc@aol.com>
Date:         Mon, 4 Nov 2002 15:55:24 EST
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: E. coli examples all anaerobic
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732125
Status: U

--part1_1a1.b296e32.2af838bc_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Let's go through your conditions and consider the concentration of oxygen IN
THE MATERIALS where the E. coli is growing.

Think things through.
-----------------
> a) ever heard of escherichia switching to mixed-acid-production
> (lactic/butryl/acetic and some others) under aerobic conditions ?
>
This occurs only when the growth of the organisms in the material reduces
oxygen concentration to where these organic acids can be produced.  The
conditions allowing these anaerobic metabolic pathways to operate are only
produced when oxygen is less than what we would consider aerobic
concentrations.

b) ever seen them them grow in tatar (minced meat) in a kitchen,
>
> where mother will not die from asphyxation ?

Ah, but the mother did not have her head in the tatar sauce.  In the tatar
sauce, the organisms growing in the minced meat used up the oxygen, and
reduced oxygen concentration below that point where the normal, aerobic
organisms out-compete E. coli.  The rich medium is one where E. coli will
grow very well, and keep oxygen concentrations low once coliform growth
starts.

You have to look at the oxygen in the tatar sauce, not in the room where the
mother was breathing.

This is what I mean, you aren't paying attention to the atmosphere where the
organisms are growing.  Think things through.

> c) ever wondered, why they grow perfectly well on almost any
> growth medium like conkey, mda or pda in petri-dishes with these
> nice special knobs on the bottom (for air supply) ?
>
Why is it that we grow these bacteria on these specific plate media?  Because
they are selective for E. coli, they prevent the growth of competing aerobic
bacteria.

Are you just not aware of why these specific media are used for the growth of
these organisms?

Why is it that such a limited set of organisms grow on these plates?  Because
the temperature, moisture, specific food resources, selective compounds in
these media allow only the coliforms to grow.  So, yes, as I said before,
under specific selective conditions in the lab, where we prevent the
competitors, inhibitors and consumers of the coliforms to grow, they can grow
aerobically.

Nothing at all like the real world.

d) one of the major site of nosocomial infection  (30% of all
>
> infections) are pneumonias. hardly the proclaimed anaerobic
> conditions you assume.
>

Excuse me, what's going on in a lung filled with fluid?  Oxygen does not
diffuse through fluid rapidly.  Oxygen concentrations are reduced.  That's
why these conditions allow these infections.

And please note, pneumonia bacteria are NOT - repeat - not E. coli.


> general rule of thumb is, that e. coli will survive up to 9 months in
> soil contaminated with them by sewage or sewage sludge (agricola
> or ovid life science should give appropriate results)
>
Exactly my point.  Soil contaminated by sewage.  Is this healthy soil?

Duh.

Is soil contaminated by sewage sludge something you would be able to grow
healthy plants in?

No.  And so, you are describing exactly the conditions where oxygen is
limited, and therefore, E. coli can survive and grow.

So, think about what you are saying.

EVERY instance that you are trying to say proves your point, in fact, proves
mine.

If you limit oxygen, if you allow rapid bacterial growth in a rich medium,
oxygen will be reduced below aerobic levels.  E. coli will grow.

People in wineries don't die of asphyxiation - even though the wine in the
barrels is anaerobic.  Come on, think about what you are saying.

E. coli does not survive in aerobic conditions (you have to check to know the
oxygen concentration) WITH - and don't forget this part please - WITH
competing, inhibitory, and consuming aerobic organisms also growing.

I am glad though, that you finally spoke up.  It is not honest of people to
go about making comments that I don't know what I'm talking about, without
ever speaking to me.

Any microbiologist with any understanding of the conditions that allow E.
coli to grow should be able to help you understand.

People who have no comprehension of real world conditions, or who don't think
about what's going with oxygen, and with the kinds of organisms that grow
under various conditions, will be fearful and terrified of E. coli.

Hysteria and fear are not needed.  Logic, a sound understanding of
conditions, a thorough knowledge of what is going on in the environment, is
required.

First principles. Just go back to first principles. What are the conditions
that allow E. coli to grow.  If you make the conditions inhospitable for E.
coli, then it will not grow.


Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
www.soilfoodweb.com



--part1_1a1.b296e32.2af838bc_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">Let's go through your conditions and consider the concentration of oxygen IN THE MATERIALS where the E. coli is growing. <BR>
<BR>
Think things through. <BR>
-----------------<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">a) ever heard of escherichia switching to mixed-acid-production<BR>
(lactic/butryl/acetic and some others) under aerobic conditions ?<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">This occurs only when the growth of the organisms in the material reduces oxygen concentration to where these organic acids can be produced.&nbsp; The conditions allowing these anaerobic metabolic pathways to operate are only produced when oxygen is less than what we would consider aerobic concentrations.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">b) ever seen them them grow in tatar (minced meat) in a kitchen,<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
where mother will not die from asphyxation ?</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0"><BR>
Ah, but the mother did not have her head in the tatar sauce.&nbsp; In the tatar sauce, the organisms growing in the minced meat used up the oxygen, and reduced oxygen concentration below that point where the normal, aerobic organisms out-compete E. coli.&nbsp; The rich medium is one where E. coli will grow very well, and keep oxygen concentrations low once coliform growth starts. <BR>
<BR>
You have to look at the oxygen in the tatar sauce, not in the room where the mother was breathing.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
This is what I mean, you aren't paying attention to the atmosphere where the organisms are growing.&nbsp; Think things through. <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">c) ever wondered, why they grow perfectly well on almost any<BR>
growth medium like conkey, mda or pda in petri-dishes with these<BR>
nice special knobs on the bottom (for air supply) ?<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">Why is it that we grow these bacteria on these specific plate media?&nbsp; Because they are selective for E. coli, they prevent the growth of competing aerobic bacteria.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Are you just not aware of why these specific media are used for the growth of these organisms?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Why is it that such a limited set of organisms grow on these plates?&nbsp; Because the temperature, moisture, specific food resources, selective compounds in these media allow only the coliforms to grow.&nbsp; So, yes, as I said before, under specific selective conditions in the lab, where we prevent the competitors, inhibitors and consumers of the coliforms to grow, they can grow aerobically.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Nothing at all like the real world.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">d) one of the major site of nosocomial infection&nbsp; (30% of all<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
infections) are pneumonias. hardly the proclaimed anaerobic<BR>
conditions you assume.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0"><BR>
Excuse me, what's going on in a lung filled with fluid?&nbsp; Oxygen does not diffuse through fluid rapidly.&nbsp; Oxygen concentrations are reduced.&nbsp; That's why these conditions allow these infections. <BR>
<BR>
And please note, pneumonia bacteria are NOT - repeat - not E. coli.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">general rule of thumb is, that e. coli will survive up to 9 months in<BR>
soil contaminated with them by sewage or sewage sludge (agricola<BR>
or ovid life science should give appropriate results)<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">Exactly my point.&nbsp; Soil contaminated by sewage.&nbsp; Is this healthy soil?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Duh.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Is soil contaminated by sewage sludge something you would be able to grow healthy plants in?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
No.&nbsp; And so, you are describing exactly the conditions where oxygen is limited, and therefore, E. coli can survive and grow. <BR>
<BR>
So, think about what you are saying.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
EVERY instance that you are trying to say proves your point, in fact, proves mine.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
If you limit oxygen, if you allow rapid bacterial growth in a rich medium, oxygen will be reduced below aerobic levels.&nbsp; E. coli will grow. <BR>
<BR>
People in wineries don't die of asphyxiation - even though the wine in the barrels is anaerobic.&nbsp; Come on, think about what you are saying.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
E. coli does not survive in aerobic conditions (you have to check to know the oxygen concentration) WITH - and don't forget this part please - WITH competing, inhibitory, and consuming aerobic organisms also growing.<BR>
<BR>
I am glad though, that you finally spoke up.&nbsp; It is not honest of people to go about making comments that I don't know what I'm talking about, without ever speaking to me.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Any microbiologist with any understanding of the conditions that allow E. coli to grow should be able to help you understand.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
People who have no comprehension of real world conditions, or who don't think about what's going with oxygen, and with the kinds of organisms that grow under various conditions, will be fearful and terrified of E. coli.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Hysteria and fear are not needed.&nbsp; Logic, a sound understanding of conditions, a thorough knowledge of what is going on in the environment, is required. <BR>
<BR>
First principles. Just go back to first principles. What are the conditions that allow E. coli to grow.&nbsp; If you make the conditions inhospitable for E. coli, then it will not grow.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Elaine Ingham<BR>
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.<BR>
www.soilfoodweb.com</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0"><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_1a1.b296e32.2af838bc_boundary--

.

From - Mon Nov 04 16:09:31 2002
X-UIDL: 322732126
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AF4981E700CE; Mon, 04 Nov 2002 15:57:45 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AF3B3758025C; Mon, 04 Nov 2002 15:57:31 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNS12GB2; Mon, 4 Nov 2002 15:57:41 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 1525 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 4 Nov 2002 15:57:36 -0500
Received: from 64.12.136.163 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Mon, 4 Nov 2002 15:57:36 -0500
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-m08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id
          d.118.1a32176b (4552) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Mon, 4 Nov
          2002 15:57:11 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="part1_118.1a32176b.2af83927_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows AU sub 10503
Message-ID:  <118.1a32176b.2af83927@aol.com>
Date:         Mon, 4 Nov 2002 15:57:11 EST
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: E. coli - one more example
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732126
Status: U

--part1_118.1a32176b.2af83927_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


In a message dated 11/4/2002 4:47:52 AM Pacific Standard Time,
wiegand@LUFA-SPEYER.DE writes:
>
> uhhuhh, we find them quite often in cheap foodstuff (when MBM
> was still allowed, we found them regularely in 70% of mixtures
> containing MBM)  with the usual aerobic colony counts of 10 ^8 to
> 10 ^9 / gr - incubation in usual temperature chambers (overgrown in
> foodstuff with colony numbers above). simple pretesting by vicam,
> our experienced technicians have a success rate of about 90%
> counterchecked by serology.
>

And what was the oxygen concentration in the cheap foodstuffs?

And wait a minute on the "aerobic plate counts".  There is EVERY probability
that the organisms that grew on that aerobic plate were present as SPORES in
the food you were talking about.

Can you find DNA of other organisms in foods with E. coli growing?  Sure.
I'm not disputing that.  But, if the conditions in the food were too low in
oxygen concentrations for them to grow, they weren't growing and competing
with the E. coli IN THE FOOD.

That's the problem with plate counts - you have no idea of the metabolic
condition of the organisms in the original habitat once they grow on a plate.
 You have no clue.

Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
www.soilfoodweb.com


--part1_118.1a32176b.2af83927_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0"><BR>
In a message dated 11/4/2002 4:47:52 AM Pacific Standard Time, wiegand@LUFA-SPEYER.DE writes:<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
uhhuhh, we find them quite often in cheap foodstuff (when MBM<BR>
was still allowed, we found them regularely in 70% of mixtures<BR>
containing MBM)&nbsp; with the usual aerobic colony counts of 10 ^8 to<BR>
10 ^9 / gr - incubation in usual temperature chambers (overgrown in<BR>
foodstuff with colony numbers above). simple pretesting by vicam,<BR>
our experienced technicians have a success rate of about 90%<BR>
counterchecked by serology.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0"><BR>
And what was the oxygen concentration in the cheap foodstuffs?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
And wait a minute on the "aerobic plate counts".&nbsp; There is EVERY probability that the organisms that grew on that aerobic plate were present as SPORES in the food you were talking about.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Can you find DNA of other organisms in foods with E. coli growing?&nbsp; Sure.&nbsp; I'm not disputing that.&nbsp; But, if the conditions in the food were too low in oxygen concentrations for them to grow, they weren't growing and competing with the E. coli IN THE FOOD.<BR>
<BR>
That's the problem with plate counts - you have no idea of the metabolic condition of the organisms in the original habitat once they grow on a plate.&nbsp; You have no clue.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Elaine Ingham<BR>
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.<BR>
www.soilfoodweb.com</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_118.1a32176b.2af83927_boundary--

.

From - Mon Nov 04 20:42:32 2002
X-UIDL: 322732157
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AF7B4C120096; Mon, 04 Nov 2002 20:31:39 -0500
Received: from n37.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.105] by smtp.intrex.net
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AF7B3E0F0224; Mon, 04 Nov 2002 20:31:39 -0500
X-eGroups-Return: sentto-7527208-1003-1036459895-lfl=intrex.net@returns.groups.yahoo.com
Received: from [66.218.66.96] by n37.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Nov 2002 01:31:35 -0000
X-Sender: Soilfoodweb@aol.com
X-Apparently-To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 5 Nov 2002 01:31:34 -0000
Received: (qmail 50106 invoked from network); 5 Nov 2002 01:31:34 -0000
Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217)
  by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Nov 2002 01:31:34 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d04.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.36)
  by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Nov 2002 01:31:34 -0000
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com
	by imo-d04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.1b9.8e95ec1 (4410)
	 for <compost_tea@yahoogroups.com>; Mon, 4 Nov 2002 20:31:29 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <1b9.8e95ec1.2af87971@aol.com>
To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows AU sub 10503
From: soilfoodweb@aol.com
X-Yahoo-Profile: soilfoodweb
MIME-Version: 1.0
Mailing-List: list compost_tea@yahoogroups.com; contact compost_tea-owner@yahoogroups.com
Delivered-To: mailing list compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Precedence: bulk
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:compost_tea-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 20:31:29 EST
Subject: Re: [compost_tea] fungi
Reply-To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="part1_1b9.8e95ec1.2af87971_boundary"
X-Declude-Sender: sentto-7527208-1003-1036459895-lfl=intrex.net@returns.groups.yahoo.com [66.218.66.105]
X-Note: Total weight is 2. NOABUSE
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
X-UIDL: 322732157
Status: U

--part1_1b9.8e95ec1.2af87971_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi LF - 

I don't know about quite a few of these - never been tested, or tested by 
someone with a proprietary interest so the data can't be discussed.  

Acadian kelp is Norwegian cold water kelp, isn't it?  Both bacteria and fungi 
are enhanced by cold water kelp high in nutrients.  The Acadian kelp website 
has lots of good information about the trials they've done with the kelp.  
Also, kelp adds nutrients that can be taken up by the foliage, and by roots.  


The following materials are going to depend greatly on the precise set of 
food resources present, and there are changes in quality with time or season. 
 Variability is to be expected.

> Crab waste granulated - meat products are likely to push rapid bacterial 
> growth.
                                    Careful with oxygen concentration.> 
> Flaked alfalfa meal - High nitrogen, so add if your plants need the N.
> Blood meal - High nitrogen, and a very rich food resource, so watch oxygen 
> use.
> Fish waste granulated - go back to Bob Norsen's experience with fish - 
> careful of
                                     oxygen!> 
> 
Probably more fungal foods than bacterial in the following.  The variation in 
response by the bacteria and fungi probably is directly related to protein 
types in the materials - 
> cornmeal
> corn bran
> wheat bran


The following are minerals.  They are nutrients which the microbes should 
help move into the plant.  You should look at a soil chemistry test to 
determine if you need to add these to your soil, or better yet, do plant 
tissue tests to determine if certain nutrients are actually plant limiting.  
Quite often, the nutrient will seem to be limiting in the soil, but be in 
good concentration in plant tissues.  This is likely to be an 
organism-mediated nutrient uptake mechanism.  But when the nutrient is high 
in soil, but low in the plant tissue, then most likely the biology needed to 
take up the nutrient and supply it to the plant is missing.  Getting the 
biology back into the soil, on the roots, or on the foliage, would be a 
necessary step to get the normal nutrient cycling processes going again.

   greensand> 
> rock phosphate
> rock dusts from quarries

Hope this helps!

Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
www.soilfoodweb.com

--part1_1b9.8e95ec1.2af87971_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>

<FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Hi LF - <BR>
<BR>
I don't know about quite a few of these - never been tested, or tested by someone with a proprietary interest so the data can't be discussed.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Acadian kelp is Norwegian cold water kelp, isn't it?&nbsp; Both bacteria and fungi are enhanced by cold water kelp high in nutrients.&nbsp; The Acadian kelp website has lots of good information about the trials they've done with the kelp.&nbsp; Also, kelp adds nutrients that can be taken up by the foliage, and by roots.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
The following materials are going to depend greatly on the precise set of food resources present, and there are changes in quality with time or season.&nbsp; Variability is to be expected.<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Crab waste granulated - meat products are likely to push rapid bacterial growth.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Careful with oxygen concentration.<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
Flaked alfalfa meal - High nitrogen, so add if your plants need the N.<BR>
Blood meal - High nitrogen, and a very rich food resource, so watch oxygen use.<BR>
Fish waste granulated - go back to Bob Norsen's experience with fish - careful of</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"> oxygen!<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">Probably more fungal foods than bacterial in the following.&nbsp; The variation in response by the bacteria and fungi probably is directly related to protein types in the materials - </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">cornmeal<BR>
corn bran<BR>
wheat bran</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
The following are minerals.&nbsp; They are nutrients which the microbes should help move into the plant.&nbsp; You should look at a soil chemistry test to determine if you need to add these to your soil, or better yet, do plant tissue tests to determine if certain nutrients are actually plant limiting.&nbsp; Quite often, the nutrient will seem to be limiting in the soil, but be in good concentration in plant tissues.&nbsp; This is likely to be an organism-mediated nutrient uptake mechanism.&nbsp; But when the nutrient is high in soil, but low in the plant tissue, then most likely the biology needed to take up the nutrient and supply it to the plant is missing.&nbsp; Getting the biology back into the soil, on the roots, or on the foliage, would be a necessary step to get the normal nutrient cycling processes going again.<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">&nbsp;&nbsp; greensand<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
rock phosphate<BR>
rock dusts from quarries</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Hope this helps!<BR>
<BR>
Elaine Ingham<BR>
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.<BR>
www.soilfoodweb.com</FONT>

<br>
<tt>
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<BR>
compost_tea-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<BR>
<BR>
</tt>
<br>

<br>
<tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms of Service</a>.</tt>
</br>

</HTML>

--part1_1b9.8e95ec1.2af87971_boundary--


.

From - Tue Nov 05 20:48:09 2002
X-UIDL: 322732198
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A8C022C010A; Tue, 05 Nov 2002 14:15:12 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A8F63670142; Tue, 05 Nov 2002 14:16:09 -0500
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WKLFWR7C; Tue, 5 Nov 2002 14:14:47 -0500
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Tue Nov 05 14:14:44 2002 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 2417 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Tue, 5 Nov 2002 14:14:38 -0500
Received: from 205.188.157.41 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Tue, 5 Nov 2002 14:14:38 -0500
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-d09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id
          d.fb.2f5a3746 (4312) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Tue, 5 Nov
          2002 14:14:14 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="part1_fb.2f5a3746.2af97286_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows AU sub 10503
Message-ID:  <fb.2f5a3746.2af97286@aol.com>
Date:         Tue, 5 Nov 2002 14:14:14 EST
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Species diversity
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732198
Status: U

--part1_fb.2f5a3746.2af97286_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

If there are no individuals of a species, or if there are no species present,
the number involved is zero.  You can't have a negative number of species, or
a negative number of individuals.  A "species richness" or a "species
diversity" index that assigns a negative number to species that is present is
mis-leading and inappropriate.  At the very least, an explanation of why a
negative value would be assigned is required.

There is no species diversity or species richness index found in any
introductory text book - certainly not Shannon-Weiner or Simpsons - that
calculate a negative species richness or species diversity for any part of
the community of any set of organisms.

No one in ecology makes the mistake of calling something Species Richness
Diversity.  Species richness is simply the number of species per unit area or
volume.  Species diversity requires knowledge about the number of individuals
of each species per unit area or volume.  Species diversity requires a
knowledge of species richness.  The calculations in text books are either for
species richness or for species diversity.  Do not mix the two up.

To quote researchers at Cornell University, the plate count approach is
"worthless" for assessment of species diversity in environmental samples.
Joel Gruver from North Carolina State University has had his say about the
usefulness of plate counts in assessing species diversity in soil or compost
samples on this list serve already.  Plate counts as an approach to assessing
species diversity in environmental samples are not worth the money you pay
for them.

Can plate count information be useful?  That's a different question.  Plate
counts can be used to assess the number of individuals (colony forming
units), or a "most probable number" of individuals, of certain species, if
you KNOW that the species you want to know about grow in a certain specific
set of conditions that you can reproduce in the laboratory.

Most bacteria or fungi in soil or compost do not grow on any plate medium.
Estimates are that less than 0.1% of the known species of bacteria can grow
on any plate medium.  Even if you run six different media, you can't begin to
get a reasonable assessment of species diversity using plate count
approaches.

There has been some serious mis-information about the number of species of
bacteria and fungi in compost, for example, because people do not understand
that plate counts assess less than 0.1% of the set of species present in the
compost.  People tell me often that compost doesn't have many species of
bacteria or fungi, based on plate count information.

Can we all, from this point on, please, exit this mis-information from our
understanding?  Compost has a huge number of bacterial and fungal species in
it, based on the diversity of starting materials put into the compost, based
on the number of unique DNA sequences that occur in compost, or soil or
compost tea.  Using molecular techniques, we can assess diversity.

Plate counts are NOT APPROPRIATE for assessing numbers of species of bacteria
or fungi in any soil, compost or compost tea.  Plate counts can be useful for
assessing numbers of individuals a few species that we know the conditions
for their growth, but that's about it.

Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
www.soilfoodweb.com

--part1_fb.2f5a3746.2af97286_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">If there are no individuals of a species, or if there are no species present, the number involved is zero.&nbsp; You can't have a negative number of species, or a negative number of individuals.&nbsp; A "species richness" or a "species diversity" index that assigns a negative number to species that is present is mis-leading and inappropriate.&nbsp; At the very least, an explanation of why a negative value would be assigned is required. <BR>
<BR>
There is no species diversity or species richness index found in any introductory text book - certainly not Shannon-Weiner or Simpsons - that calculate a negative species richness or species diversity for any part of the community of any set of organisms.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
No one in ecology makes the mistake of calling something Species Richness Diversity.&nbsp; Species richness is simply the number of species per unit area or volume.&nbsp; Species diversity requires knowledge about the number of individuals of each species per unit area or volume.&nbsp; Species diversity requires a knowledge of species richness.&nbsp; The calculations in text books are either for species richness or for species diversity.&nbsp; Do not mix the two up. <BR>
<BR>
To quote researchers at Cornell University, the plate count approach is "worthless" for assessment of species diversity in environmental samples.&nbsp; Joel Gruver from North Carolina State University has had his say about the usefulness of plate counts in assessing species diversity in soil or compost samples on this list serve already.&nbsp; Plate counts as an approach to assessing species diversity in environmental samples are not worth the money you pay for them.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Can plate count information be useful?&nbsp; That's a different question.&nbsp; Plate counts can be used to assess the number of individuals (colony forming units), or a "most probable number" of individuals, of certain species, if you KNOW that the species you want to know about grow in a certain specific set of conditions that you can reproduce in the laboratory.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Most bacteria or fungi in soil or compost do not grow on any plate medium. Estimates are that less than 0.1% of the known species of bacteria can grow on any plate medium.&nbsp; Even if you run six different media, you can't begin to get a reasonable assessment of species diversity using plate count approaches.<BR>
<BR>
There has been some serious mis-information about the number of species of bacteria and fungi in compost, for example, because people do not understand that plate counts assess less than 0.1% of the set of species present in the compost.&nbsp; People tell me often that compost doesn't have many species of bacteria or fungi, based on plate count information.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Can we all, from this point on, please, exit this mis-information from our understanding?&nbsp; Compost has a huge number of bacterial and fungal species in it, based on the diversity of starting materials put into the compost, based on the number of unique DNA sequences that occur in compost, or soil or compost tea.&nbsp; Using molecular techniques, we can assess diversity.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Plate counts are NOT APPROPRIATE for assessing numbers of species of bacteria or fungi in any soil, compost or compost tea.&nbsp; Plate counts can be useful for assessing numbers of individuals a few species that we know the conditions for their growth, but that's about it.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Elaine Ingham<BR>
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.<BR>
www.soilfoodweb.com</FONT></HTML>

--part1_fb.2f5a3746.2af97286_boundary--

.

From - Tue Nov 05 20:48:14 2002
X-UIDL: 322732199
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A9191CD0082; Tue, 05 Nov 2002 14:16:41 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A95B69500C4; Tue, 05 Nov 2002 14:17:47 -0500
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WKLFWS86; Tue, 5 Nov 2002 14:17:31 -0500
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Tue Nov 05 14:17:29 2002 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 2440 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Tue, 5 Nov 2002 14:17:22 -0500
Received: from 152.163.225.101 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Tue, 5 Nov 2002 14:17:22 -0500
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-r05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id
          d.127.19f44cea (4312) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Tue, 5 Nov
          2002 14:16:55 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="part1_127.19f44cea.2af97327_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows AU sub 10503
Message-ID:  <127.19f44cea.2af97327@aol.com>
Date:         Tue, 5 Nov 2002 14:16:55 EST
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Proper compost
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732199
Status: U

--part1_127.19f44cea.2af97327_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

The definition of properly composted material, when applied to thermal
compost, is that it has reached temperature throughout the material for long
enough that weed seed, human pathogens and most of the plant pathogens and
pests have been killed.  There should be no E. coli in properly composted
material.

If someone SAYS material was properly composted, and the material has E. coli
in it, then it is not properly composted material.  Simple logic.

Most people mean a compost is finished if it has heated and come back down to
ambient temperature.  Does that guarantee that appropriate temperatures were
reached, for long enough, through the whole pile?   Long enough to kill the
E. coli and other human pathogens?

It should mean that.  But if people are calling a compost finished, and the
compost still has E. coli in it, then the compost was not truly finished.
It's still just partially decomposed organic matter.

Because organic matter stands in a pile and heats a bit, does that make it
compost?   No.  Did the composting process get started?  Yes, but it was not
allowed to finish.  If you leave organic matter in a pile long enough, will
it become compost?  Sure, but when do you know when it is "finished"?

There are standards.  Excuses that because it's too expensive to turn, or
monitor, or aerate organic matter properly, and so not remove E. coli fully,
does not mean it's ok to call the material compost.  Because people are not
willing to do a proper job, does not mean that we change the definition of
compost.

Could there be categories of quality in compost?  Yes.  Especially if
composting operations are not doing what is necessary to produce compost that
is completely and correctly processed.

Data showing the amount of E. coli in compost should be necessary, along with
other chemical and biological properties, to document compost quality.

Implementation of standards remains to be seen.  But because someone calls
something good compost does not mean that it is so.  Data are required.
Properly composted material does not contain E. coli.

Does this mean most of the commercially-sold "compost" produced in the US is
not properly composted?   Yes, that's what it means.  Doesn't change the
definition of properly composted material, however.

Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
www.soilfoodweb.com

--part1_127.19f44cea.2af97327_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">The definition of properly composted material, when applied to thermal compost, is that it has reached temperature throughout the material for long enough that weed seed, human pathogens and most of the plant pathogens and pests have been killed.&nbsp; There should be no E. coli in properly composted material.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
If someone SAYS material was properly composted, and the material has E. coli in it, then it is not properly composted material.&nbsp; Simple logic.<BR>
<BR>
Most people mean a compost is finished if it has heated and come back down to ambient temperature.&nbsp; Does that guarantee that appropriate temperatures were reached, for long enough, through the whole pile?&nbsp;&nbsp; Long enough to kill the E. coli and other human pathogens? <BR>
<BR>
It should mean that.&nbsp; But if people are calling a compost finished, and the compost still has E. coli in it, then the compost was not truly finished.&nbsp; It's still just partially decomposed organic matter.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Because organic matter stands in a pile and heats a bit, does that make it compost?&nbsp;&nbsp; No.&nbsp; Did the composting process get started?&nbsp; Yes, but it was not allowed to finish.&nbsp; If you leave organic matter in a pile long enough, will it become compost?&nbsp; Sure, but when do you know when it is "finished"?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
There are standards.&nbsp; Excuses that because it's too expensive to turn, or monitor, or aerate organic matter properly, and so not remove E. coli fully, does not mean it's ok to call the material compost.&nbsp; Because people are not willing to do a proper job, does not mean that we change the definition of compost.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Could there be categories of quality in compost?&nbsp; Yes.&nbsp; Especially if composting operations are not doing what is necessary to produce compost that is completely and correctly processed.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Data showing the amount of E. coli in compost should be necessary, along with other chemical and biological properties, to document compost quality.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Implementation of standards remains to be seen.&nbsp; But because someone calls something good compost does not mean that it is so.&nbsp; Data are required.&nbsp; Properly composted material does not contain E. coli.<BR>
<BR>
Does this mean most of the commercially-sold "compost" produced in the US is not properly composted?&nbsp;&nbsp; Yes, that's what it means.&nbsp; Doesn't change the definition of properly composted material, however.<BR>
<BR>
Elaine Ingham<BR>
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.<BR>
www.soilfoodweb.com</FONT></HTML>

--part1_127.19f44cea.2af97327_boundary--

.

From - Tue Nov 05 20:49:38 2002
X-UIDL: 322732214
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A7EDE190104; Tue, 05 Nov 2002 19:53:01 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A82E43C0068; Tue, 05 Nov 2002 19:54:06 -0500
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WKLFXA9X; Tue, 5 Nov 2002 19:52:29 -0500
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Tue Nov 05 19:52:24 2002 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 2873 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Tue, 5 Nov 2002 19:52:17 -0500
Received: from 205.188.157.37 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Tue, 5 Nov 2002 19:52:17 -0500
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id
          d.1c8.129fb05 (4592) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Tue, 5 Nov
          2002 19:51:55 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="part1_1c8.129fb05.2af9c1ab_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows AU sub 10503
Message-ID:  <1c8.129fb05.2af9c1ab@aol.com>
Date:         Tue, 5 Nov 2002 19:51:55 EST
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Proper compost
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732214
Status: U

--part1_1c8.129fb05.2af9c1ab_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi Roberto -

I am speaking from the USDA organic program point of view.  As Elliot Coleman
just pointed out to me (and he's right), the USDA really pushes thermal
composting.  There are other ways to arrive at the same E. coli-free
conditions, such as cold-composting methods.  At least worm compost has been
recognized this time around in the USDA regs.  That is a good addition.  But
there are other composting methods the USDA still left out.

>From a food safety point-of-view, compost needs to be E. coli free.  For
compost tea purposes, compost needs to be E. coli free.

As I've said before, E. coli is an indicator of the presence of other human
pathogens.  If E. coli is not present, most likely the human pathogens are
not present either, because the human pathogens, like Salmonella, Shigella,
Yersinia and Pasteurella have similar requirements for growth and survival as
E .coli.  If E. coli is present, sooner or later, you will have a human
pathogen present, and the likelihood for disease significant.

The question previously was whether properly composted material would contain
E. coli.  For thermal compost, if the growth of the organisms in the compost
raises the temperature to high enough levels, for long enough, under aerobic
conditions, then E. coli will not remain.  Simple.  How do you document
compost quality?  Testing.

Many people do not understand that the bacteria and fungi growing in organic
matter raise the temperature.  If all you do is physically heat compost, you
don't get the same reduction in E. coli.  This is a biological process.
Competition with aerobic bacteria and fungi, inhibition by other bacteria and
fungi, and consumption of disease-organisms by protozoa and nematodes are all
part of the process of making good compost, getting rid of the pathogens.

If you just steam heat organic matter, you don't get the same benefits of the
growth of the competitive, inhibitory and consuming interactions that happen
when the full food web is present.

So, to document that compost has been properly composted, you have to do the
testing.  But once you know that your mix of starting materials, the
temperatures and the turning that result in a good compost, then you just
have to monitor starting materials and temperature.  Check your end-product
now and again for biology and chemistry.

The thermal method pushed by the current USDA-NOP regs is hot and fast, and
can make "finished" compost in 6 to 8 weeks.  But not everyone wants to do
that.

Can't you make good compost in 5 months without high heat?  Yes.  But that
approach is not included in the NOP regs.

Does that mean long-term, cool compost isn't compost?  No.

How do you know if quality compost has been produced?  Organisms.  Chemistry.
 No E. coli, and all the good guys.

Once you have the process worked out, and can show it works every time, then
you just track temperature.  Do we have the longer process worked out?  We're
working on it.  Will E. coli be removed everytime?  So far so good.  What are
the important components?  The right starting materials, aeration and the
correct organisms.  Turning is not required, if you make the pile right.

This is the approach that Edna wants.  Can we get it certified organic?

If you make your own compost, and you mess up, and you get sick, you won't
sue yourself.  If you sell to other people, and they get sick, you better get
ready to lose your shirt, cause those folks are going to have your hide.

So, the regs really are for people who sell products to other people.  If you
aren't selling things, do you need the USDA regs?

Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
www.soilfoodweb.com

--part1_1c8.129fb05.2af9c1ab_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">Hi Roberto - <BR>
<BR>
I am speaking from the USDA organic program point of view.&nbsp; As Elliot Coleman just pointed out to me (and he's right), the USDA really pushes thermal composting.&nbsp; There are other ways to arrive at the same E. coli-free conditions, such as cold-composting methods.&nbsp; At least worm compost has been recognized this time around in the USDA regs.&nbsp; That is a good addition.&nbsp; But there are other composting methods the USDA still left out. <BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">From a food safety point-of-view, compost needs to be E. coli free.&nbsp; For compost tea purposes, compost needs to be E. coli free.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
As I've said before, E. coli is an indicator of the presence of other human pathogens.&nbsp; If E. coli is not present, most likely the human pathogens are not present either, because the human pathogens, like Salmonella, Shigella, Yersinia and Pasteurella have similar requirements for growth and survival as E .coli.&nbsp; If E. coli is present, sooner or later, you will have a human pathogen present, and the likelihood for disease significant.&nbsp; <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">The question previously was whether properly composted material would contain E. coli.&nbsp; For thermal compost, if the growth of the organisms in the compost raises the temperature to high enough levels, for long enough, under aerobic conditions, then E. coli will not remain.&nbsp; Simple.&nbsp; How do you document compost quality?&nbsp; Testing. <BR>
<BR>
Many people do not understand that the bacteria and fungi growing in organic matter raise the temperature.&nbsp; If all you do is physically heat compost, you don't get the same reduction in E. coli.&nbsp; This is a biological process.&nbsp; Competition with aerobic bacteria and fungi, inhibition by other bacteria and fungi, and consumption of disease-organisms by protozoa and nematodes are all part of the process of making good compost, getting rid of the pathogens.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
If you just steam heat organic matter, you don't get the same benefits of the growth of the competitive, inhibitory and consuming interactions that happen when the full food web is present.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
So, to document that compost has been properly composted, you have to do the testing.&nbsp; But once you know that your mix of starting materials, the temperatures and the turning that result in a good compost, then you just have to monitor starting materials and temperature.&nbsp; Check your end-product now and again for biology and chemistry.<BR>
<BR>
The thermal method pushed by the current USDA-NOP regs is hot and fast, and can make "finished" compost in 6 to 8 weeks.&nbsp; But not everyone wants to do that.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Can't you make good compost in 5 months without high heat?&nbsp; Yes.&nbsp; But that approach is not included in the NOP regs.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Does that mean long-term, cool compost isn't compost?&nbsp; No.<BR>
<BR>
How do you know if quality compost has been produced?&nbsp; Organisms.&nbsp; Chemistry.&nbsp; No E. coli, and all the good guys.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Once you have the process worked out, and can show it works every time, then you just track temperature.&nbsp; Do we have the longer process worked out?&nbsp; We're working on it.&nbsp; Will E. coli be removed everytime?&nbsp; So far so good.&nbsp; What are the important components?&nbsp; The right starting materials, aeration and the correct organisms.&nbsp; Turning is not required, if you make the pile right.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
This is the approach that Edna wants.&nbsp; Can we get it certified organic?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
If you make your own compost, and you mess up, and you get sick, you won't sue yourself.&nbsp; If you sell to other people, and they get sick, you better get ready to lose your shirt, cause those folks are going to have your hide.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
So, the regs really are for people who sell products to other people.&nbsp; If you aren't selling things, do you need the USDA regs?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Elaine Ingham<BR>
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.<BR>
www.soilfoodweb.com</FONT></HTML>

--part1_1c8.129fb05.2af9c1ab_boundary--

.

From - Tue Nov 05 21:57:31 2002
X-UIDL: 322732219
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A275CBD00DC; Tue, 05 Nov 2002 21:46:13 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A2B5EA8014A; Tue, 05 Nov 2002 21:47:17 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WKLFX1S8; Tue, 5 Nov 2002 21:47:25 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 2909 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Tue, 5 Nov 2002 21:47:19 -0500
Received: from 64.4.23.148 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with TCP;
          Tue, 5 Nov 2002 21:47:19 -0500
Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue,
          5 Nov 2002 18:47:00 -0800
Received: from 152.1.121.213 by lw15fd.law15.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 06
          Nov 2002 02:46:58 GMT
X-Originating-IP: [152.1.121.213]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Nov 2002 02:47:00.0414 (UTC)
                       FILETIME=[C7AB15E0:01C2853E]
Message-ID:  <F148Mec58NYdCI1J1DK000131ef@hotmail.com>
Date:         Tue, 5 Nov 2002 21:46:58 -0500
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Joel Gruver <jgruv@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Species diversity
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732219
Status: U

Hello to all,

Elaine Ingham wrote:

>Plate counts are NOT APPROPRIATE for assessing numbers of species of
> >bacteria or fungi in any soil, compost or compost tea.  Plate counts >can
>be useful for assessing numbers of individuals a few species that >we know
>the conditions for their growth, but that's about it.

I agree with the first statement, however I hesitate to be as critical  as
Elaine concerning the use of plate counts to evaluate the quality of compost
teas.

Even though plate counts only represent a tiny fraction of the biodiversity
in soil/compost, they may have good predictive value withrespect to the
disease suppression and plant growth promotion effects of compost teas.

Consider routine soil testing... the extraction/analysis methods used in
routine soil testing are not designed to measure the total quantities of
nutrients contained in soil... rather they measure relatively soluble pools
of soil nutrients that have experimentally been determined (through
extensive field testing) to be strongly predictive of crop response to
fertilizer.

Do plate counts have value in predicting the functional value of    compost
teas ? I have not seen the data but Joel Reiten seems to think so... I
expect that the Xanthamonas article he refered to in his recent post may
present evidence of the predictive value of plate counts.

Do microscopy methods have value in predicting the functional value of
compost teas ? I don't know... Perhaps Elaine can recommend an article which
reports a significant relationship between direct counts and the function
value of compost teas.

Joel

Joel Gruver
Dept of Soil Science
NC State University
jgruv@hotmail.com




_________________________________________________________________
Choose an Internet access plan right for you -- try MSN!
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp

.

From - Tue Nov 05 23:27:31 2002
X-UIDL: 322732221
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A7701886012E; Tue, 05 Nov 2002 23:15:47 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A7ABFB1014A; Tue, 05 Nov 2002 23:16:43 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WKLFXGJR; Tue, 5 Nov 2002 23:16:57 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 2918 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Tue, 5 Nov 2002 23:16:50 -0500
Received: from 152.163.225.99 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Tue, 5 Nov 2002 23:16:50 -0500
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-r03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id
          d.29.3083b121 (3866) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Tue, 5 Nov
          2002 23:16:28 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="part1_29.3083b121.2af9f19b_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows AU sub 10503
Message-ID:  <29.3083b121.2af9f19b@aol.com>
Date:         Tue, 5 Nov 2002 23:16:27 EST
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Species diversity
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732221
Status: U

--part1_29.3083b121.2af9f19b_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi Joel -

The data we have is written up in the Compost Tea Brewing Manual.  There is a
clear predictive value between direct assessment and ability to prevent
disease.  When 70% or more of the leaf surface is covered with compost tea
organisms (at least 5% of the coverage has to be fungal), we have been able
to prevent colonization of the leaf surface by any foliar pathogen.

We see the same thing when it comes to roots.

We also see a great deal of usefulness in direct counts for assessing which
organisms are present, right now, in tea, or soil, or compost.  We can
discern which as ACTIVE, and performing a function, right now.

Plate counts cannot differentiate between spores and dormant stages, and
things that are alive and active now.  Spores and dormant stages germinate
and grow during the several day time period it takes for the colonies to get
large enough to count.

Extraction of a soluble nutrient from soil isn't like assessing diversity or
trying to predict whether a bacterium will suppress disease.  The connection
between nitrate and plant uptake and response is easy to see, because nitrate
is so soluble and so mobile.  But this isn't the case for P, for example.  Or
Fe.   Most likely, many of the bacteria and fungi that have beneficial
effects on plants are not culturable.

Mycorrhizal fungi, for example, cannot be cultured on any plate medium.  That
seems a huge set of beneficial organisms that are completely missed by plate
counts.  Mycorrhizal fungi play very important roles in both plant uptake and
 in disease suppression.  They are not included in any plate assessment.

There are many instances that a nutrient is present in soil, and yet the
plant tissues remain low in that nutrient.  Just because we can extract it
does not mean the plant will be able to take it up.

Dr. Eric Nelson has mentioned a paper coming out that shows that the pathogen
inhibition method means nothing when it comes to predictability of disease
inhibition in soil samples.  There was no relationship between inhibition on
plates and inhibition in soil.  I'm waiting patiently to see it in print.

But it makes sense that there isn't any real relationship.  The interaction
between a pathogen growing on a plate in the lab, and organisms in the tea,
growing on a plate, bears no relationship to how either the pathogen or the
set of tea organisms will grow in soil, on the leaf surface, on the bark or
blossom.

The ways that organisms respond in artificial lab conditions is nothing like
the way they behave in the field.  So, how predictive can lab trials be?

Now, in the case of trying to detect whether Xanthomonas is present before or
after application of compost tea, that's a different story.  We know the
conditions that allow Xanthomonas to grow on plates,  And in this instance,
plate counts can be useful at detecting whether the tea has reduced the
disease-causing organisms.

I think I made the usefulness of plate counts for that sort of approach clear
in my previous post.  But using plate counts to assess diversity?  No way.

Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
www.soilfoodweb.com

--part1_29.3083b121.2af9f19b_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">Hi Joel - <BR>
<BR>
The data we have is written up in the Compost Tea Brewing Manual.&nbsp; There is a clear predictive value between direct assessment and ability to prevent disease.&nbsp; When 70% or more of the leaf surface is covered with compost tea organisms (at least 5% of the coverage has to be fungal), we have been able to prevent colonization of the leaf surface by any foliar pathogen. <BR>
<BR>
We see the same thing when it comes to roots.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
We also see a great deal of usefulness in direct counts for assessing which organisms are present, right now, in tea, or soil, or compost.&nbsp; We can discern which as ACTIVE, and performing a function, right now.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Plate counts cannot differentiate between spores and dormant stages, and things that are alive and active now.&nbsp; Spores and dormant stages germinate and grow during the several day time period it takes for the colonies to get large enough to count.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Extraction of a soluble nutrient from soil isn't like assessing diversity or trying to predict whether a bacterium will suppress disease.&nbsp; The connection between nitrate and plant uptake and response is easy to see, because nitrate is so soluble and so mobile.&nbsp; But this isn't the case for P, for example.&nbsp; Or Fe.&nbsp;&nbsp; Most likely, many of the bacteria and fungi that have beneficial effects on plants are not culturable.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Mycorrhizal fungi, for example, cannot be cultured on any plate medium.&nbsp; That seems a huge set of beneficial organisms that are completely missed by plate counts.&nbsp; Mycorrhizal fungi play very important roles in both plant uptake and&nbsp; in disease suppression.&nbsp; They are not included in any plate assessment. <BR>
<BR>
There are many instances that a nutrient is present in soil, and yet the plant tissues remain low in that nutrient.&nbsp; Just because we can extract it does not mean the plant will be able to take it up. <BR>
<BR>
Dr. Eric Nelson has mentioned a paper coming out that shows that the pathogen inhibition method means nothing when it comes to predictability of disease inhibition in soil samples.&nbsp; There was no relationship between inhibition on plates and inhibition in soil.&nbsp; I'm waiting patiently to see it in print.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
But it makes sense that there isn't any real relationship.&nbsp; The interaction between a pathogen growing on a plate in the lab, and organisms in the tea, growing on a plate, bears no relationship to how either the pathogen or the set of tea organisms will grow in soil, on the leaf surface, on the bark or blossom.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
The ways that organisms respond in artificial lab conditions is nothing like the way they behave in the field.&nbsp; So, how predictive can lab trials be?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Now, in the case of trying to detect whether Xanthomonas is present before or after application of compost tea, that's a different story.&nbsp; We know the conditions that allow Xanthomonas to grow on plates,&nbsp; And in this instance, plate counts can be useful at detecting whether the tea has reduced the disease-causing organisms.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
I think I made the usefulness of plate counts for that sort of approach clear in my previous post.&nbsp; But using plate counts to assess diversity?&nbsp; No way.<BR>
<BR>
Elaine Ingham<BR>
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.<BR>
www.soilfoodweb.com</FONT></HTML>

--part1_29.3083b121.2af9f19b_boundary--

.

From - Wed Nov 06 08:47:32 2002
X-UIDL: 322732235
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AB17D3AA0116; Wed, 06 Nov 2002 08:37:27 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AB55B970090; Wed, 06 Nov 2002 08:38:29 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WKLFX3Q2; Wed, 6 Nov 2002 08:38:22 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 3267 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Wed, 6 Nov 2002 08:38:16 -0500
Received: from 64.4.23.10 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with TCP;
          Wed, 6 Nov 2002 08:38:15 -0500
Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed,
          6 Nov 2002 05:37:56 -0800
Received: from 152.1.121.213 by lw15fd.law15.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 06
          Nov 2002 13:37:55 GMT
X-Originating-IP: [152.1.121.213]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Nov 2002 13:37:56.0508 (UTC)
                       FILETIME=[B6EA15C0:01C28599]
Message-ID:  <F10ed9VlLfYs3JgCJwu0001066a@hotmail.com>
Date:         Wed, 6 Nov 2002 08:37:55 -0500
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Joel Gruver <jgruv@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Species diversity
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732235
Status: U

Hello Elaine,

As I stated in my previous post, I completely agree that plate counts are
not a very useful research method for evaluating total or active microbial
biodiversity.

My point is that for routine testing purposes (i.e. which require  rapid and
cheap methods) I think that a plate count method may have value for routine
assessment of the functional value of compost teas.
This is my hypothesis. I have not personally tested this hypothesis.
Hopefully any labs using plate count methods to evaluate the quality of of
compost teas have tested this hypothesis.

You wrote:

>The connection between nitrate and plant uptake and response is easy >to
>see, because nitrate is so soluble and so mobile.

This is not accurate... very few soil testing labs analyze (routinely) for
nitrate because the relationship between levels of nitrate in soil samples
(collected before the growing season) and crop response is normally very
weak. There are some exceptions such as PSNT (where samples are collected
immediately before a rapid phase of plant growth) and also in arid regions.

>But this isn't the case for P, for example.

There is plenty of evidence that routine soil tests for P frequently have
good ability to predict crop response to P inputs.

The Melich 3 (and other extractants used commonly for routine soil testing)
do not extract the exact pools of P (or other nutrients) that are used by
crops during a subsequent growing season. The Melich 3 extractant simply
extracts a quantity of P that consistently allows prediction of need or lack
of need for additional P.

Just as routine tests for soil nutrients have value despite not revealing
the full range of pools of nutrients that may be accessible by crops (or the
mechanisms by which these pools are accessed), I am suggesting that a
routine test of compost teas (using plate counts)
may have predictive value despite only presenting a small window into the
biodiversity of compost.

>Mycorrhizal fungi, for example, cannot be cultured on any plate medium.
>That seems a huge set of beneficial organisms that are completely missed by
>plate counts.

This is not true - the literature contains lots of evidence that that plate
culture of ectomycorrhizae is possible and is a useful scientific method.

Joel

_________________________________________________________________
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963

.

From - Wed Nov 06 12:57:40 2002
X-UIDL: 322732257
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A4E71FA50118; Wed, 06 Nov 2002 12:44:07 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A5261280009C; Wed, 06 Nov 2002 12:45:10 -0500
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WKLFX5VM; Wed, 6 Nov 2002 12:44:38 -0500
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Wed Nov 06 12:44:35 2002 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 3539 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Wed, 6 Nov 2002 12:44:28 -0500
Received: from 205.188.157.34 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Wed, 6 Nov 2002 12:44:28 -0500
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-d02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id
          d.33.2fceeaf5 (4552) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Wed, 6 Nov
          2002 12:44:02 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="part1_33.2fceeaf5.2afaaee2_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows AU sub 10503
Message-ID:  <33.2fceeaf5.2afaaee2@aol.com>
Date:         Wed, 6 Nov 2002 12:44:02 EST
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Methods for assessing compost tea quality
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732257
Status: U

--part1_33.2fceeaf5.2afaaee2_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sorry, Joel, you were correct.  I was thinking of endomycorrhiza, since I was
focused on row crop plants.

So, now I'm confused about why you brought up extractable nutrients as a good
model for testing compost teas.

If in fact there is little correlation between what can be extracted and
plant growth, then why would the incredibly tiny portion of the actual
species diversity that you can get from plate counts be expected to give you
useful information?

Extraction of the soluble pools of inorganic nutrients from soil gets a high
percentage of those pools.  But if the correlation between the measured
nutrient concentration them and plant growth is not all that clear, as I
think you just objected back to me.

Why is that an argument, then, to suggest that we could use assessment of the
few species of bacteria that grow on plates to be representative of whether a
compost tea is going to be successful as suppressing disease?

I think you in fact argued against the use of plate count approaches.  If we
do a good job of extracting most of a nutrient from soil, and that still
isn't a good way to assess if plants will benefit from that nutrient, why
would an assay, that barely gives us much understanding of the whole
community give us any understanding of the ability of that tea to influence
plant growth?

There are no data showing that plate count information relates to benefits to
plants, as least that I'm aware.  Maybe the experiment that J Reiten will
give us data to show the relationship, but at least so far, there are no data
to show any relationship.

On the other hand, let me summarize an experiment we have finished and are
writing up for publication.  We had ten randomly drawn tomato plants that had
been in a greenhouse where blight was taking over.  So, all ten plants had
equal chance to be infected, and all the plants in the greenhouse succumbed
to blight in the next week.  These ten plants were split randomly into two
groups.  Five plants were treated with Compost Tea #1, and five with compost
tea #2.

Plate counts showed no significant difference between the two treatments.

All five plants treated with tea #1 died of blight within the next week.
None of the plants treated with tea #2 died, and we picked tomato from those
plants for a long time.  We repeated this test, essentially with field grown
tomato at Sunbow Farms.

What was the difference between tea #1 and tea #2?

Direct counts showed us the difference.  Tea #1 had high numbers of bacteria,
no fungi, no protozoa, no beneficial nematodes.  Tea #2 had high bacterial
numbers, good fungal biomass and activity, good protozoan numbers, and some
beneficial nematodes.

Tea #1, sprayed on the plants with the same sprayer as used for tea #2, only
covered 27% of the leaf surfaces with bacteria and bacteria alone.  Tea #2
covered 87% the leaf surfaces with bacteria and 5% with fungi.

So, which way of assessing tea quality do you want to use?

Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
www.soilfoodweb.com

--part1_33.2fceeaf5.2afaaee2_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">Sorry, Joel, you were correct.&nbsp; I was thinking of endomycorrhiza, since I was focused on row crop plants.<BR>
<BR>
So, now I'm confused about why you brought up extractable nutrients as a good model for testing compost teas.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
If in fact there is little correlation between what can be extracted and plant growth, then why would the incredibly tiny portion of the actual species diversity that you can get from plate counts be expected to give you useful information?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Extraction of the soluble pools of inorganic nutrients from soil gets a high percentage of those pools.&nbsp; But if the correlation between the measured nutrient concentration them and plant growth is not all that clear, as I think you just objected back to me.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Why is that an argument, then, to suggest that we could use assessment of the few species of bacteria that grow on plates to be representative of whether a compost tea is going to be successful as suppressing disease?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
I think you in fact argued against the use of plate count approaches.&nbsp; If we do a good job of extracting most of a nutrient from soil, and that still isn't a good way to assess if plants will benefit from that nutrient, why would an assay, that barely gives us much understanding of the whole community give us any understanding of the ability of that tea to influence plant growth? <BR>
<BR>
There are no data showing that plate count information relates to benefits to plants, as least that I'm aware.&nbsp; Maybe the experiment that J Reiten will give us data to show the relationship, but at least so far, there are no data to show any relationship.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, let me summarize an experiment we have finished and are writing up for publication.&nbsp; We had ten randomly drawn tomato plants that had been in a greenhouse where blight was taking over.&nbsp; So, all ten plants had equal chance to be infected, and all the plants in the greenhouse succumbed to blight in the next week.&nbsp; These ten plants were split randomly into two groups.&nbsp; Five plants were treated with Compost Tea #1, and five with compost tea #2.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Plate counts showed no significant difference between the two treatments.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
All five plants treated with tea #1 died of blight within the next week.&nbsp; None of the plants treated with tea #2 died, and we picked tomato from those plants for a long time.&nbsp; We repeated this test, essentially with field grown tomato at Sunbow Farms.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
What was the difference between tea #1 and tea #2?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Direct counts showed us the difference.&nbsp; Tea #1 had high numbers of bacteria, no fungi, no protozoa, no beneficial nematodes.&nbsp; Tea #2 had high bacterial numbers, good fungal biomass and activity, good protozoan numbers, and some beneficial nematodes.<BR>
<BR>
Tea #1, sprayed on the plants with the same sprayer as used for tea #2, only covered 27% of the leaf surfaces with bacteria and bacteria alone.&nbsp; Tea #2 covered 87% the leaf surfaces with bacteria and 5% with fungi.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
So, which way of assessing tea quality do you want to use?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Elaine Ingham<BR>
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.<BR>
www.soilfoodweb.com</FONT></HTML>

--part1_33.2fceeaf5.2afaaee2_boundary--

.

From - Wed Nov 06 14:37:36 2002
X-UIDL: 322732260
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id ACF415A035A; Wed, 06 Nov 2002 14:26:44 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id ACEA10510062; Wed, 06 Nov 2002 14:26:34 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WKLFX94Z; Wed, 6 Nov 2002 14:25:59 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 3579 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Wed, 6 Nov 2002 14:25:52 -0500
Received: from 64.4.23.71 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with TCP;
          Wed, 6 Nov 2002 14:25:52 -0500
Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed,
          6 Nov 2002 11:25:32 -0800
Received: from 152.1.121.213 by lw15fd.law15.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 06
          Nov 2002 19:25:32 GMT
X-Originating-IP: [152.1.121.213]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Nov 2002 19:25:32.0809 (UTC)
                       FILETIME=[463D0F90:01C285CA]
Message-ID:  <F71794N1xUZeNcltUC7000254c3@hotmail.com>
Date:         Wed, 6 Nov 2002 14:25:32 -0500
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Joel Gruver <jgruv@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Methods for assessing compost tea quality
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732260
Status: U

Hello Elaine,

The routine soil tests for P and K currently performed by public and private
testing labs have an excellent track record as predictors of plant response
to P and K inputs. These tests are only measuring a small amount of the
total P and K in soil. Routine soil tests for extractable N are generally
not performed because of the lack of predicative ability of these tests.

If there is little relationship betwen plate counts of compost teas and the
disease suppression and plant growth promotion effects of compost teas, then
plate culture should *not* be used for evalating the quality of compost
teas. The same thing stands true for microscopy methods.

In addition to being predictive, methods used for routine testing need to be
cheap and rapid. Is there a method for evaluating compost tea currently in
use that meets all 3 of these criteria ?

You wrote:

>Tea #1, sprayed on the plants with the same sprayer as used for tea >#2,
>only covered 27% of the leaf surfaces with bacteria and bacteria >alone.
>Tea #2 covered 87% the leaf surfaces with bacteria and 5% with >fungi.

Do you have an explanation for why Tea #1 was much less effective in
providing "coverage" of leaf surfaces than Tea #2 ? You indicated that both
teas contained high levels of bacteria.

How does your lab measure leaf surface coverage ? Considering that
microorganisms rarely cover more than 5-10 % of root surfaces (I think this
is generally accepted in the literature), 80 % coverage of foliar surfaces
seems very high...

Let me close by saying that I really appreciate your efforts as well as the
efforts of other members of the vangaurd of practical soil food web
management.

Skepticism (concerning compost teas and other novel agricultural
technologies) is my professional responsibility... I am actually very
optimistic about the future of compost based technologies for promoting crop
root and foliar health.

Joel

Joel Gruver
Dept of Soil Science
NC State University
jgruv@hotmail.com
(919) 515 - 4270

_________________________________________________________________
STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

.

From - Wed Nov 06 17:53:17 2002
X-UIDL: 322732265
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A38BAF9006E; Wed, 06 Nov 2002 17:11:23 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A3879AA00DA; Wed, 06 Nov 2002 17:11:19 -0500
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WKLFYGW4; Wed, 6 Nov 2002 17:10:45 -0500
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Wed Nov 06 17:10:41 2002 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 3958 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Wed, 6 Nov 2002 17:10:33 -0500
Received: from 152.163.225.102 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Wed, 6 Nov 2002 17:10:33 -0500
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-r06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id
          d.64.27cc0c79 (4320) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Wed, 6 Nov
          2002 17:10:00 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="part1_64.27cc0c79.2afaed38_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows AU sub 10503
Message-ID:  <64.27cc0c79.2afaed38@aol.com>
Date:         Wed, 6 Nov 2002 17:10:00 EST
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Methods for assessing compost tea quality
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732265
Status: U

--part1_64.27cc0c79.2afaed38_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi Joel -

You asked:
In addition to being predictive, methods used for routine testing need to be
cheap and rapid. Is there a method for evaluating compost tea currently in
use that meets all 3 of these criteria ?

Total and active bacteria, and total and active fungi take about 20 minutes
per sample to assess.

We have documented the food web required in the tea in order to see disease
suppression - those results are written up in the Compost Tea Brewing Manual,
in a format that most growers can easily comprehend (not a scientific paper
write-up).

To obtain nutrient retention in the soil, bacteria and fungi are necessary.
To have normal nutrient cycling, protozoa and nematodes (not the
root-feeders, but the beneficial nematodes) are required.

To build soil structure, organic matter, improve water retention, aeration,
ALL the organisms are required.

So, we have the methods to assess all those organisms.  Are they present in
your soil, in the compost, or in the compost tea?  Without the biology
present, we know these broad functions will not happen.

When you talk about functional groups in the soil, it is as if you think that
organisms that grow on plate as active in the soil.

They are not.  Thus, as a method to assess function, plate counts are
pitiful.

As a method to determine whether a functional group exist in soil, again,
plate counts are pitiful, because 99% of the individuals that might be able
to perform a function do not grow on that plate.

If you want to know function, do any enzyme test.  Then you know how much of
that function is being performed right now.

But enzyme analysis doesn't help you to know how much that function will be
maintained.  You can be predictive only if you know the number of active
organisms performing that function now, and in ten minutes, and in an hour,
etc.  Plate counts don't allow you to do that.  Most of the organisms that
grow on any plate are dormant forms, spores, that were not active in the
soil, or compost, or tea.

You wrote:
> Do you have an explanation for why Tea #1 was much less effective in
> providing "coverage" of leaf surfaces than Tea #2 ? You indicated that both
> teas contained high levels of bacteria.

Tea #1 contained just bacteria,  The number of ACTIVE bacteria, as assessed
by FDA staining, was lower in tea #1 than in tea #2.  Fewer bacteria "stuck"
to the leaves (27% coverage), since they were not active at the time of
application to the leaf surfaces.  Tea #1 was made with a different compost
than the second tea.  Tea #1 had no fungi.

Tea #2 had more active bacteria, had good active fungi as well.   More of the
organisms stayed on the leaf surface.

> How does your lab measure leaf surface coverage ? Considering that
> microorganisms rarely cover more than 5-10 % of root surfaces (I think this
> is generally accepted in the literature), 80 % coverage of foliar surfaces
> seems very high...
>
We measure organisms on leaf surfaces by looking at the organisms on the leaf
surface.  We stain them, so we can see them against the background of the
leaf.  The staining procedure takes about 3 minutes, and then we can see if
they are present, and how much of the leaf surface is covered.

> Let me close by saying that I really appreciate your efforts as well as the
> efforts of other members of the vangaurd of practical soil food web
> management.
>
> Skepticism (concerning compost teas and other novel agricultural
> technologies) is my professional responsibility... I am actually very
> optimistic about the future of compost based technologies for promoting
> crop
> root and foliar health.
>

I appreciate the skepticism, as long as you remain convince-able when the
data are in front of you.  There are a number of researchers who dismiss new
approaches because they don't have "enough" data.  To dismiss something
without at least testing it, and testing it fairly, has undermined the image
of researcher in the US.


Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
www.soilfoodweb.com

--part1_64.27cc0c79.2afaed38_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Hi Joel - <BR>
<BR>
You asked:<BR>
In addition to being predictive, methods used for routine testing need to be<BR>
cheap and rapid. Is there a method for evaluating compost tea currently in<BR>
use that meets all 3 of these criteria ?<BR>
<BR>
Total and active bacteria, and total and active fungi take about 20 minutes per sample to assess.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
We have documented the food web required in the tea in order to see disease suppression - those results are written up in the Compost Tea Brewing Manual, in a format that most growers can easily comprehend (not a scientific paper write-up). <BR>
<BR>
To obtain nutrient retention in the soil, bacteria and fungi are necessary.&nbsp; To have normal nutrient cycling, protozoa and nematodes (not the root-feeders, but the beneficial nematodes) are required.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
To build soil structure, organic matter, improve water retention, aeration, ALL the organisms are required. <BR>
<BR>
So, we have the methods to assess all those organisms.&nbsp; Are they present in your soil, in the compost, or in the compost tea?&nbsp; Without the biology present, we know these broad functions will not happen.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
When you talk about functional groups in the soil, it is as if you think that organisms that grow on plate as active in the soil.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
They are not.&nbsp; Thus, as a method to assess function, plate counts are pitiful. <BR>
<BR>
As a method to determine whether a functional group exist in soil, again, plate counts are pitiful, because 99% of the individuals that might be able to perform a function do not grow on that plate.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
If you want to know function, do any enzyme test.&nbsp; Then you know how much of that function is being performed right now.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
But enzyme analysis doesn't help you to know how much that function will be maintained.&nbsp; You can be predictive only if you know the number of active organisms performing that function now, and in ten minutes, and in an hour, etc.&nbsp; Plate counts don't allow you to do that.&nbsp; Most of the organisms that grow on any plate are dormant forms, spores, that were not active in the soil, or compost, or tea. <BR>
<BR>
You wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Do you have an explanation for why Tea #1 was much less effective in<BR>
providing "coverage" of leaf surfaces than Tea #2 ? You indicated that both<BR>
teas contained high levels of bacteria.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">Tea #1 contained just bacteria,&nbsp; The number of ACTIVE bacteria, as assessed by FDA staining, was lower in tea #1 than in tea #2.&nbsp; Fewer bacteria "stuck" to the leaves (27% coverage), since they were not active at the time of application to the leaf surfaces.&nbsp; Tea #1 was made with a different compost than the second tea.&nbsp; Tea #1 had no fungi.<BR>
<BR>
Tea #2 had more active bacteria, had good active fungi as well.&nbsp;&nbsp; More of the organisms stayed on the leaf surface. <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">How does your lab measure leaf surface coverage ? Considering that<BR>
microorganisms rarely cover more than 5-10 % of root surfaces (I think this<BR>
is generally accepted in the literature), 80 % coverage of foliar surfaces<BR>
seems very high...<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">We measure organisms on leaf surfaces by looking at the organisms on the leaf surface.&nbsp; We stain them, so we can see them against the background of the leaf.&nbsp; The staining procedure takes about 3 minutes, and then we can see if they are present, and how much of the leaf surface is covered.&nbsp; <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Let me close by saying that I really appreciate your efforts as well as the<BR>
efforts of other members of the vangaurd of practical soil food web<BR>
management.<BR>
<BR>
Skepticism (concerning compost teas and other novel agricultural<BR>
technologies) is my professional responsibility... I am actually very<BR>
optimistic about the future of compost based technologies for promoting crop<BR>
root and foliar health.<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">I appreciate the skepticism, as long as you remain convince-able when the data are in front of you.&nbsp; There are a number of researchers who dismiss new approaches because they don't have "enough" data.&nbsp; To dismiss something without at least testing it, and testing it fairly, has undermined the image of researcher in the US.&nbsp; <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">Elaine Ingham<BR>
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.<BR>
www.soilfoodweb.com</FONT></HTML>

--part1_64.27cc0c79.2afaed38_boundary--

.

From - Thu Nov 07 01:49:25 2002
X-UIDL: 322732285
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AE0D43480104; Wed, 06 Nov 2002 23:37:36 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AE033EE008A; Wed, 06 Nov 2002 23:37:23 -0500
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WKLFYN2R; Wed, 6 Nov 2002 23:37:38 -0500
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Wed Nov 06 23:37:36 2002 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 4064 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Wed, 6 Nov 2002 23:37:27 -0500
Received: from 213.55.2.205 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Wed, 6 Nov 2002 23:37:27 -0500
Received: from default (unknown [210.23.208.13]) by mail.gn.apc.org (Postfix)
          with ESMTP id C805914B5B9 for <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Thu,  7
          Nov 2002 04:37:04 +0000 (GMT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Content-description: Mail message body
Message-ID:  <3DCA5BA1.9373.51A8E@localhost>
Date:         Thu, 7 Nov 2002 12:25:05 +0800
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Roberto Verzola <rverzola@GN.APC.ORG>
Subject: Re: Proper compost
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <1c8.129fb05.2af9c1ab@aol.com>
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732285
Status: U

Hello Elaine. Thank you for your excellent explanations on E.coli
and compost teas. I still have a question about your point below:

> From a food safety point-of-view, compost needs to be E. coli free. For compost tea purposes,
> compost needs to be E. coli free.
>
> As I've said before, E. coli is an indicator of the presence of other human pathogens. If E. coli is
> not present, most likely the human pathogens are not present either, because the human pathogens,
> like Salmonella, Shigella, Yersinia and Pasteurella have similar requirements for growth and
> survival as E .coli. If E. coli is present, sooner or later, you will have a human pathogen present,
> and the likelihood for disease significant.

It seems to me that to require E.coli testing of compost for it to be
considered organic sets an even *higher* safety standard than
testing for the presence of pathogens themselves (like O157:H7,
Salmonella, etc.). As you said, E.coli is simply an indicator, not a
pathogen itself (except a few strains), and that it simply indicates
conditions favorable to the emergence/growth of pathogens. So,
this standard disqualifies from organic certification a compost, not
because it contains pathogens, but because its contains conditions
similar to those which may be favorable to pathogens. This seems
to be a more restrictive standard.

Is this an accurate interpretation of the requirement for E.coli
testing of organic compost?

Roberto Verzola
Philippines

.

From - Thu Nov 07 01:49:26 2002
X-UIDL: 322732287
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A1A842A300F6; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 01:01:15 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A19B38C00B2; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 01:00:59 -0500
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WKLFY35P; Thu, 7 Nov 2002 01:00:44 -0500
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Thu Nov 07 01:00:40 2002 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 4108 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Thu, 7 Nov 2002 01:00:32 -0500
Received: from 64.12.136.8 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with TCP;
          Thu, 7 Nov 2002 01:00:32 -0500
Received: from Aquatfs@aol.com by imo-m05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id
          d.16.27ebdf62 (3310) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Thu, 7 Nov
          2002 00:55:56 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="part1_16.27ebdf62.2afb5a6b_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10641
Message-ID:  <16.27ebdf62.2afb5a6b@aol.com>
Date:         Thu, 7 Nov 2002 00:55:55 EST
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Aquatfs@AOL.COM
Subject: Defining Compost and Teas
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732287
Status: U

--part1_16.27ebdf62.2afb5a6b_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I have been following the discussion of how to identify whether compost and
teas are "good" or "bad". Should we focus on the ingredients, the process,
the end product, or all of the above? I suspect that different permutations
and combinations of ingredients and composting methods may give the same
results, and the same combinations may give seemingly different results. I
find that the raw materials are generally not adequately defined. Manure is a
description that can cover a broad range of materials (with and without
pathogens and contaminants), as can crop residues (ditto). I have all too
often seen composting used as a garbage disposal or a means of bioremediating
undesirables.

In the broader context, using Steiner's concept of the farm as a potentially
closed system, the cycles between the farm soil, crops, and animals must be
considered, as must all the inputs and farming and husbandry methods. There
should be a symbiosis between the waste from animals and crops that return to
the soil to produce more crops and animal feed, and subsequent waste for the
compost operation. Would it be necessary to micromanage (pun intended) a farm
that operates as a synergistic organism?

Alan Ismond, P.Eng.
Aqua-Terra Consultants

--part1_16.27ebdf62.2afb5a6b_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">I have been following the discussion of how to identify whether compost and teas are "good" or "bad". Should we focus on the ingredients, the process, the end product, or all of the above? I suspect that different permutations and combinations of ingredients and composting methods may give the same results, and the same combinations may give seemingly different results. I find that the raw materials are generally not adequately defined. Manure is a description that can cover a broad range of materials (with and without pathogens and contaminants), as can crop residues (ditto). I have all too often seen composting used as a garbage disposal or a means of bioremediating undesirables.<BR>
<BR>
In the broader context, using Steiner's concept of the farm as a potentially closed system, the cycles between the farm soil, crops, and animals must be considered, as must all the inputs and farming and husbandry methods. There should be a symbiosis between the waste from animals and crops that return to the soil to produce more crops and animal feed, and subsequent waste for the compost operation. Would it be necessary to micromanage (pun intended) a farm that operates as a synergistic organism?<BR>
<BR>
Alan Ismond, P.Eng.<BR>
Aqua-Terra Consultants&nbsp; </FONT></HTML>

--part1_16.27ebdf62.2afb5a6b_boundary--

.

From - Thu Nov 07 15:19:27 2002
X-UIDL: 322732307
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AE2E2CCB007A; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 13:17:18 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AE28C3017E; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 13:17:12 -0500
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WKLFY032; Thu, 7 Nov 2002 13:16:25 -0500
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Thu Nov 07 13:16:22 2002 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 4822 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Thu, 7 Nov 2002 13:16:13 -0500
Received: from 205.188.157.40 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Thu, 7 Nov 2002 13:16:13 -0500
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-d08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id
          d.12c.1ac846d7 (4184) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Thu, 7 Nov
          2002 13:15:52 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="part1_12c.1ac846d7.2afc07d8_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows AU sub 10503
Message-ID:  <12c.1ac846d7.2afc07d8@aol.com>
Date:         Thu, 7 Nov 2002 13:15:52 EST
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Proper compost
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732307
Status: U

--part1_12c.1ac846d7.2afc07d8_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi Roberto -

Did I say that everyone has to test?  Please go back and read my e-mail.

When is it that you would have to test?  If you want to know whether you have
good compost.  In that case, you should test for the FULL FOOD WEB being
present, so you would know that E. coli will be taken care of, if you
maintain oxygen and foods for the beneficials to grow.  Make sure the
chemistry is correct.

However, my recent comments have been in response to the recommendation by
Wil Brinton and the Compost Task Force of the National Organic Standards
Board.  That recommendation stated that compost tea and vermicompost tea
cannot be used on food crops because of the danger of E. coli in the tea
brews.

I agree with you that organic growers should not be subject to standards that
are greater than conventional growers.  I've stated that in previous posts.
So, you really need to go to Wil Brinton, and the Compost Task Force and get
them to explain their recommendation.

My personal attitude about E.coli presence is not that you would be
"de-certified" if you have E. coli in your compost, but that you would need
to begin to work toward finding the source of contamination and removing it,
or changing your production methods to get rid of the E. coli.

We've been monitoring several composts for the last few months.  One compost
started at 44,000 E. coli per gram of "compost" (by my definition, not a
proper compost, right?).

By keeping that compost pile aerobic (pile less than 6 feet high, moisture no
higher than 50%, and NOT turned, because that destroys the aggregate
structure built by the microorganisms growing in the pile), the numbers in
that pile have steadily declined, and now are at an average of 42 E. coli per
gram.  This is well below the regulatory level for CONVENTIONAL growers in
most states, as I understand the regs.

We made tea from the "compost" mentioned above when that compost was high in
E. coli.  We used a 100 gallon Earth Tea Brewer tea maker machine
(www.composttea.com), AND added MOLASSES into the tea brew.  The number of E.
coli in the 24 hour, aerobic compost tea was 2.7 E. coli per ml.  This is
well below irrigation water levels that growers can put on their crops.

So much for those people that say molasses causes a bad set of bacteria to
grow.  The organism/aeration conditions of the brewing process reduced E.
coli to nearly un-detectable levels.

What if there were fewer E. coli per gram in the compost to start with?  In
other studies we have done, E. coli was not-detectable in the tea after 24
hours when using the 100 gallon Earth Tea Brewer.

Do ALL of the compost tea machines on the market right now reduce E. coli in
a 24-hour aerobic tea brew?

Apparently not, since the Growing Solutions 25 gallon compost tea machine
used by BBC Lab had significant levels of E. coli at the end of a 24 hour tea
brewing cycle when using sugar, molasses or barley malt.  Their data have
been published in the papers from May 2002 Biocycle meeting  (please note
that this is not a peer-reviewed scientific journal, so you need to be more
critical of the methods used than you would be for peer-reviewed papers).  I
believe the paper can still be downloaded from the Biocycle website.

BBC Lab claimed that the tea brew maintained aerobic conditions throughout
the production cycle.  But they only present data in their paper for one of
the many tea brews performed.  Either they only monitored oxygen for ONE tea
brew, or they are trying to say that oxygen use remained the SAME for all the
different tea brews they performed.

There is a difference in how the organisms respond to molasses versus white
sugar, or barley malt, or humic acids, or fish.  When we run different food
resources in the tea, we get different oxygen responses.  What happened to
the oxygen data for the other tea brews, if BBC Lab in fact monitored oxygen
in all those runs?  They claim their tea brews stayed well-aerated and that
thus E. coli grows aerobically.  But where are the data to support their
claims?

In fact, if you monitor oxygen, maintain aerobic conditions, and have the
foods to grow the competitive, inhibitory and consuming organisms, E. coli
numbers will be reduced.  At least, with everything that we are doing, that's
what we see.

A note of caution, however.  We just finished a tea run where we started with
STRAIGHT manure, and ok, if you have an outrageous number of E. coli in the
starting materials (in the millions per gram), you can't reduce the E. coli
to even close to safe levels in 24 hours of aeration.

What does that mean for growers?  Don't make MANURE tea and out it on
something you are going to eat anytime in the near future.  But we already
knew that manure isn't compost.

But, we put compost with low numbers of E. coli in the 5 gal KIS tea brewer
(www.simplici-tea.com), and E. coli was undetectable after 12 or 22 hours.

So, we now know that two tea brewers WILL REDUCE E. coli numbers; the Earth
Tea Brewer, and the KIS tea brewer.  We know that the Growing Solutions
machine will NOT reduce E. coli numbers, based on the data that the
manufacturer of the machine claims is correct.

So, the current NOP regs say that you have to perform the composting process
correctly.  If you do, then there is every likelihood that you will drop E.
coli down to reasonable, and perhaps undetectable levels.  So, use properly
composted materials and things should be fine.

Experience says that if you do proper composting, E. coli will be gone.  Then
there's the real world, where less-than-perfect conditions prevail, and
maybe, some E.coli will escape.  Our data are saying that's ok if you have
the right machine, and conditions are maintained correctly.

The NOP regulates the PROCESS.  So, for compost tea, the PROCESS should be
regulated.  Use, or make, compost tea machines that will properly maintain
aeration and the growth of the full food web set of bacteria, fungi and
protozoa.

But, as I said before, what if you want to know FOR CERTAIN?  Then you have
to test.

Did I say everyone has to test?  No.  If you do the process correctly, then
you should be fine.  Tests are necessary if you want to know for certain.

I don't know about you, but I like solid data.

Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
www.soilfoodweb.com

--part1_12c.1ac846d7.2afc07d8_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">Hi Roberto - <BR>
<BR>
Did I say that everyone has to test?&nbsp; Please go back and read my e-mail.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
When is it that you would have to test?&nbsp; If you want to know whether you have good compost.&nbsp; In that case, you should test for the FULL FOOD WEB being present, so you would know that E. coli will be taken care of, if you maintain oxygen and foods for the beneficials to grow.&nbsp; Make sure the chemistry is correct.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
However, my recent comments have been in response to the recommendation by Wil Brinton and the Compost Task Force of the National Organic Standards Board.&nbsp; That recommendation stated that compost tea and vermicompost tea cannot be used on food crops because of the danger of E. coli in the tea brews.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
I agree with you that organic growers should not be subject to standards that are greater than conventional growers.&nbsp; I've stated that in previous posts.&nbsp; So, you really need to go to Wil Brinton, and the Compost Task Force and get them to explain their recommendation.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
My personal attitude about E.coli presence is not that you would be "de-certified" if you have E. coli in your compost, but that you would need to begin to work toward finding the source of contamination and removing it, or changing your production methods to get rid of the E. coli.<BR>
<BR>
We've been monitoring several composts for the last few months.&nbsp; One compost started at 44,000 E. coli per gram of "compost" (by my definition, not a proper compost, right?).&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
By keeping that compost pile aerobic (pile less than 6 feet high, moisture no higher than 50%, and NOT turned, because that destroys the aggregate structure built by the microorganisms growing in the pile), the numbers in that pile have steadily declined, and now are at an average of 42 E. coli per gram.&nbsp; This is well below the regulatory level for CONVENTIONAL growers in most states, as I understand the regs.<BR>
<BR>
We made tea from the "compost" mentioned above when that compost was high in E. coli.&nbsp; We used a 100 gallon Earth Tea Brewer tea maker machine (www.composttea.com), AND added MOLASSES into the tea brew.&nbsp; The number of E. coli in the 24 hour, aerobic compost tea was 2.7 E. coli per ml.&nbsp; This is well below irrigation water levels that growers can put on their crops.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
So much for those people that say molasses causes a bad set of bacteria to grow.&nbsp; The organism/aeration conditions of the brewing process reduced E. coli to nearly un-detectable levels. <BR>
<BR>
What if there were fewer E. coli per gram in the compost to start with?&nbsp; In other studies we have done, E. coli was not-detectable in the tea after 24 hours when using the 100 gallon Earth Tea Brewer.<BR>
<BR>
Do ALL of the compost tea machines on the market right now reduce E. coli in a 24-hour aerobic tea brew?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Apparently not, since the Growing Solutions 25 gallon compost tea machine used by BBC Lab had significant levels of E. coli at the end of a 24 hour tea brewing cycle when using sugar, molasses or barley malt.&nbsp; Their data have been published in the papers from May 2002 Biocycle meeting&nbsp; (please note that this is not a peer-reviewed scientific journal, so you need to be more critical of the methods used than you would be for peer-reviewed papers).&nbsp; I believe the paper can still be downloaded from the Biocycle website.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
BBC Lab claimed that the tea brew maintained aerobic conditions throughout the production cycle.&nbsp; But they only present data in their paper for one of the many tea brews performed.&nbsp; Either they only monitored oxygen for ONE tea brew, or they are trying to say that oxygen use remained the SAME for all the different tea brews they performed.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
There is a difference in how the organisms respond to molasses versus white sugar, or barley malt, or humic acids, or fish.&nbsp; When we run different food resources in the tea, we get different oxygen responses.&nbsp; What happened to the oxygen data for the other tea brews, if BBC Lab in fact monitored oxygen in all those runs?&nbsp; They claim their tea brews stayed well-aerated and that thus E. coli grows aerobically.&nbsp; But where are the data to support their claims?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
In fact, if you monitor oxygen, maintain aerobic conditions, and have the foods to grow the competitive, inhibitory and consuming organisms, E. coli numbers will be reduced.&nbsp; At least, with everything that we are doing, that's what we see.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
A note of caution, however.&nbsp; We just finished a tea run where we started with STRAIGHT manure, and ok, if you have an outrageous number of E. coli in the starting materials (in the millions per gram), you can't reduce the E. coli to even close to safe levels in 24 hours of aeration. <BR>
<BR>
What does that mean for growers?&nbsp; Don't make MANURE tea and out it on something you are going to eat anytime in the near future.&nbsp; But we already knew that manure isn't compost.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
But, we put compost with low numbers of E. coli in the 5 gal KIS tea brewer (www.simplici-tea.com), and E. coli was undetectable after 12 or 22 hours.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
So, we now know that two tea brewers WILL REDUCE E. coli numbers; the Earth Tea Brewer, and the KIS tea brewer.&nbsp; We know that the Growing Solutions machine will NOT reduce E. coli numbers, based on the data that the manufacturer of the machine claims is correct.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
So, the current NOP regs say that you have to perform the composting process correctly.&nbsp; If you do, then there is every likelihood that you will drop E. coli down to reasonable, and perhaps undetectable levels.&nbsp; So, use properly composted materials and things should be fine.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Experience says that if you do proper composting, E. coli will be gone.&nbsp; Then there's the real world, where less-than-perfect conditions prevail, and maybe, some E.coli will escape.&nbsp; Our data are saying that's ok if you have the right machine, and conditions are maintained correctly.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
The NOP regulates the PROCESS.&nbsp; So, for compost tea, the PROCESS should be regulated.&nbsp; Use, or make, compost tea machines that will properly maintain aeration and the growth of the full food web set of bacteria, fungi and protozoa.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
But, as I said before, what if you want to know FOR CERTAIN?&nbsp; Then you have to test.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Did I say everyone has to test?&nbsp; No.&nbsp; If you do the process correctly, then you should be fine.&nbsp; Tests are necessary if you want to know for certain.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
I don't know about you, but I like solid data.<BR>
<BR>
Elaine Ingham<BR>
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.<BR>
www.soilfoodweb.com</FONT></HTML>

--part1_12c.1ac846d7.2afc07d8_boundary--

.

From - Fri Nov 08 22:27:47 2002
X-UIDL: 322732406
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A2A2227F0092; Fri, 08 Nov 2002 20:19:30 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A29324DB003A; Fri, 08 Nov 2002 20:19:15 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WQBJM3AR; Fri, 8 Nov 2002 20:18:56 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 6817 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Fri, 8 Nov 2002 20:19:16 -0500
Received: from 209.226.175.53 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Fri, 8 Nov 2002 20:19:16 -0500
Received: from windows98 ([65.94.128.40]) by tomts9-srv.bellnexxia.net
          (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with SMTP id
          <20021109002240.NQWB8707.tomts9-srv.bellnexxia.net@windows98> for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Fri, 8 Nov 2002 19:22:40 -0500
References:  <5.2.0.9.0.20021108174821.02056750@gwpop.wvu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Message-ID:  <006301c28787$8aaca460$6501a8c0@sympatico.ca>
Date:         Fri, 8 Nov 2002 18:21:57 -0500
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Frank Teuton <fteuton@SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: NOSB minutes on Compost Tea
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732406
Status: U

Excerpts from:

http://www.ams.usda.gov/nosb/OctoberNOSBTranscript101902.pdf

MR. BANDELE: Okay, as far as the other 22
agenda items are concerned, next is the compost tea. I 23
think Barbara mentioned this morning how there are 24
certain things that just keep coming back because 1
people want the right answer, -- that's true. 2
(Laughter) 3
MR. BANDELE: I don't want to go into a long 4
discussion about the reasons why the committee strongly 5
feels that we need to really not give up on this 6
compost tea issue. The decision, as I understand it, 7
was not based on scientific data -- at least scientific 8
data that many of us have seen. So what I'll propose 9
tomorrow as an action item is to reactivate the compost 10
task force with the specific charge to look at the 11
compost tea issue and I'm going to recommend that Eric 12
Sideman (ph) who shared the task force will serve as 13
co-chair along with Dennis Holbrook. So I'll reserve 14
that until tomorrow. 15
CHAIRPERSON CARTER: Okay, Rose. 16
MS. KOENIG: And just for clarification, I 17
guess for Richard and Barbara maybe it'll be a little 18
bit more palatable. Some of the discussion is that -- 19
that according to what is stated on the website, it 20
just nullifies the use of any kind of compost tea and 21
it's argued in the field that many compost tea products 22
don't use manure. And so we want to make sure that the 23
compost task force looks at this again, and at least 24
breaks out the products that would not, in the compost 1
-- they would like to examine all the types of products 2
that would fit within that category, and see if they at 3
least could not be looked at separate entities, because 4
there may be some that are -- it's such a general term 5
within the field, that many of them may not even 6
include manure products, and those especially may not 7
have a problem. That's the background. 8
CHAIRPERSON CARTER: So it's not exactly 9
asking the same question. 10
MS. KOENIG: No, it's not. 11
CHAIRPERSON CARTER: It's a new compost tea. 12
It's compost coffee. 13
MR. BANDELE: I just have a question at this 14
point. I think in one of my discussions with Emily, I 15
think she pointed out that there were several compost 16
tea products that are on recertified at this time. 17
What would be the state of ... 18
(several speak at once.) 19
MR. BANDELE: No I said ... I had a couple 20
conversations with Emily, and she stated that there are 21
a few compost tea formulations that are almost approved 22
at this time. What would be the status of those that 23
have ... approval? 24
MR. MATHEWS: They're not approved. 1
MS. KOENIG: And that was where some of the 2
question lies, because on some products, as I 3
understand, they don't even have -- they just have a 4
plant component, that the compost is actually made out 5
of a plant with no -- 6
CHAIRPERSON CARTER: Okay, then -- Mark and 7
then Barbara. 8
MR. KING: Well, and Barb may go into this, 9
but I guess one of the things that -- and not that I'm 10
a regulatory reviewer -- but compost is a process, and 11
I think that when you put that word in any product, 12
that you lend yourself to certain things, shall we say. 13
So -- and so -- go ahead. 14
MS. ROBINSON: I just want to say it's not -- 15
it's not just -- you focus on manure and that's -- that 16
is an issue, but manure is narrowing the issue. The 17
issue is really pathogens. It's not whether -- and 18
pathogens can be caused -- I'm no scientist, but my 19
understanding is pathogens are not limited just to 20
manure. So that's part of the issue. Now, I also 21
thought that we had decided to tell people that you had 22
to treat compost tea like raw manure. So we're not 23
saying you can't use it, we're saying you've got to use 24
it with those restrictions in terms of time before you 1
apply and harvest from the ground. 2
MR. MATHEWS: That's correct, that's what we 3
did say. 4
PARTICIPANT: ... tea ... 5
MR. MATHEWS: Yes, that's the other thing. 6
Don't call it compost tea. 7
MR. MATHEWS: Plant-based foliar spray. 8
MS. ROBINSON: I mean at the end of the day, 9
see you've got to come back to 205203(C). I can do 10
that too, Rick. Which says that you can't -- which 11
says that no producer should apply things or do things 12
to the soil that da-da-da. So that's the binding 13
constraint that producers operate under. We don't 14
really care where it's coming from, but you can't 15
contaminate the soil or cause increase in pathogens and 16
that sort of thing. 17
MR. MATHEWS: Or a food safety crisis. 18
MS. ROBINSON: Right. 19
MR. MATHEWS: Which kills -- 20
MS. ROBINSON: Or a food safety crisis which 21
would cause devastation in the program overall. This 22
is not a food safety program, and we aren't going 23
there. 24
CHAIRPERSON CARTER: Emily. 1
MS. BROWNROSEN: So let me get this straight. 2
So you're saying it's not allowed because it doesn't 3
meet 203(C). Now our position has been that the 4
compost we review meet the regulation as written for 5
compost, and we require pathogen testing, and we say 6
they do meet 203(C) on the terms of contaminating the 7
crops with pathogens. In order to be on the list they 8
have to have pathogen testing and they have to be 9
composed and reach the temperature and turned five 10
times, and et cetera, the whole nine yards. So when 11
the guidance says it's not eligible to meet 203(C), is 12
that what you meant? Or do you mean to say that it 13
must meet 203(C) to be eligible to be compost tea? Am 14
I talking too fast? 15
MR. MATHEWS: We have said no to compost tea. 16
MS. BROWNROSEN: Right. 17
MR. MATHEWS: If the Board wants to 18
reactivate it -- task force, and come back with 19
additional information, we'll be glad to review it. 20
MS. BROWNROSEN: Okay, because I just thought 21
I heard you say in September -- in September there was 22
some -- Barbara mentioned, I believe, that if they had 23
pathogen testing, that wouldn't be a problem, or if 24
were treated like raw manure it wouldn't be a problem. 1
MR. MATHEWS: I think she just told you not 2
to call it compost tea. 3
MS. ROBINSON: Don't call it compost tea. 4
The problem is that there are people -- 5
CHAIRPERSON CARTER: Use the mike. 6
MS. ROBINSON: The problem is that we know 7
that there could be an inappropriate or an 8
indiscriminate use, or somebody's not paying any 9
attention, and what we wanted to get -- the point we 10
wanted to get across to people is it doesn't matter 11
what you call it, but you can't contaminate the soil or 12
the food. I don't care if you call it marshmallows. I 13
mean it doesn't matter. A soil amendment. It's a soil 14
amendment. 15
MR. MATHEWS: We have said that it could be 16
used in the same way that you would raw manure. But 17
what you have to -- but part of the problem that we 18
have is that for every farmer who is using a 19
manufactured product that went through a real, rigorous 20
process that guaranteed not to be a problem, there's 21
probably a hundred of them out there making it in their 22
own back yard, who are not going through that rigorous 23
testing, and that are the ones who could lead to food 24
safety crisis, and one we want to protect you from. 1
MS. ROBINSON: The only way that we can give 2
certifying agents the ability to ask the questions and 3
enforce the regulations is to say it like this, and 4
basically say -- what we're saying to certifying agents 5
is you have every right to expect that this stuff is 6
being -- whatever it is -- that it's being made 7
appropriately and applied appropriately. That if there 8
are questions in your mind, it should be tested -- that 9
sort of thing. Because -- 10
MS. BROWNROSEN: But they do have the ability 11
to do that? 12
MS. ROBINSON: Yes, certifying agents have 13
that right. They have that ability. Do they not? 14
CHAIRPERSON CARTER: Okay, sounds like a task 15
force issue. Marty, did you have something you needed 16
to add? You were pacing -- 17
MR. MESH: No, I'll wait for the task force. 18

.

From - Sun Nov 10 00:12:20 2002
X-UIDL: 322732446
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 06000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A836215D009A; Sun, 10 Nov 2002 00:01:42 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A810502D00C8; Sun, 10 Nov 2002 00:01:04 -0500
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WQBJM8V4; Sun, 10 Nov 2002 00:00:58 -0500
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Sun Nov 10 00:01:05 2002 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 7276 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sun, 10 Nov 2002 00:00:52 -0500
Received: from 207.217.120.50 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Sun, 10 Nov 2002 00:00:52 -0500
Received: from sdn-ap-001neomahp0135.dialsprint.net ([63.186.0.135]
          helo=earthlink.net) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim
          3.33 #1) id 18AkD0-0007Rw-00 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU; Sat, 09
          Nov 2002 21:00:31 -0800
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID:  <3DCDF858.7EAE1C53@earthlink.net>
Date:         Sat, 9 Nov 2002 23:10:32 -0700
Reply-To:     mrill@earthlink.net
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         mrill <mrill@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: NOSB minutes on Compost Tea
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732446
Status: U

Now I am really confused.  Can anyone clarify the NOSB meeting minute
tidbit extracted in Frank's post?  The interesting conversation about
compost tea on this list has been based, I thought, on a concern about
the NOSB Compost Task Force recommendations against the use of molasses
or other sugars in teas used closer than 120 days til harvest.

But the conversation from this NOSB meeting just a few weeks ago makes
it look like Mr.Mathews and Ms. Robinson -- both NOP staff -- have
decided compost tea can't be used -- unless its treated like manure --
and also, don't call it compost tea.

This is not what I understand the NOSB  task force to have recommended
in May.

Can anyone clarify -- do I just misunderstand the technicalities?  What
does it mean when an NOP staff member says: "We have said no to compost
tea."  Where is this discussion in the minutes?!
thanks, Mrill

--
Mrill Ingram
217 N. Third Street
Madison, WI 53704
mrill@earthlink.net
608-242-1836 (h)
608-265-9023 (w)

.

From - Sun Nov 10 09:32:20 2002
X-UIDL: 322732449
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AA542F4800E8; Sun, 10 Nov 2002 09:16:52 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AA365E1D0090; Sun, 10 Nov 2002 09:16:22 -0500
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WQBJNBTS; Sun, 10 Nov 2002 09:15:54 -0500
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Sun Nov 10 09:16:13 2002 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 7375 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sun, 10 Nov 2002 09:16:00 -0500
Received: from 64.12.136.162 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Sun, 10 Nov 2002 09:15:59 -0500
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-m07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id
          d.ea.30eb72e4 (4446) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sun, 10 Nov
          2002 09:11:11 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="part1_ea.30eb72e4.2affc2fe_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows AU sub 10503
Message-ID:  <ea.30eb72e4.2affc2fe@aol.com>
Date:         Sun, 10 Nov 2002 09:11:10 EST
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: NOSB minutes on Compost Tea
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732449
Status: U

--part1_ea.30eb72e4.2affc2fe_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Let's clarify the different kinds of compost tea that you might be concerned
with, and ones that you don't need to be concerned with.  If I forget a
category, or you see the need to split a category, please chime in  -

First,  if you apply tea made from any source more than 90 to 120 days before
the crop surface would be consumed, there are no worries.

Second, compost tea made from plant-based, no human waste compost.  E. coli
is not present in the starting materials, not present in the compost.  This
category should be of no concern to folks with respect to the human pathogen
question.

Third, compost tea made with food waste material that could have low levels
of E. coli.  E. coli is fairly easily reduced to non-detectable levels with
this type of compost.  Testing might be necessary to document that E. coli is
not present in the final compost material, and that it is then safe to apply
to food plants.

Fourth, manure-based tea is what the E. coli concern is all about.  We can
make compost tea from manure-based compost without any E. coli in the final
tea.  BUT people also manage to make compost tea from manure-based compost
that contains E. coli.

The problem becomes, how do you KNOW that you managed to exit the E. coli
from the tea?  What are the parameters that allow E.coli (and other human
pathogens) to be destroyed?  We have done it, but now we need to understand
what the important factors are in producing these teas routinely.

So, that's where the situation is.  Don't go ballistic about compost tea in
general.  But on plants that you eat without washing the surface of the
material you are going to consume, stay away from compost tea made with
manure-based compost.

Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
www.soilfoodweb.com

--part1_ea.30eb72e4.2affc2fe_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">Let's clarify the different kinds of compost tea that you might be concerned with, and ones that you don't need to be concerned with.&nbsp; If I forget a category, or you see the need to split a category, please chime in&nbsp; - <BR>
<BR>
First,&nbsp; if you apply tea made from any source more than 90 to 120 days before the crop surface would be consumed, there are no worries.<BR>
<BR>
Second, compost tea made from plant-based, no human waste compost.&nbsp; E. coli is not present in the starting materials, not present in the compost.&nbsp; This category should be of no concern to folks with respect to the human pathogen question.<BR>
<BR>
Third, compost tea made with food waste material that could have low levels of E. coli.&nbsp; E. coli is fairly easily reduced to non-detectable levels with this type of compost.&nbsp; Testing might be necessary to document that E. coli is not present in the final compost material, and that it is then safe to apply to food plants.<BR>
<BR>
Fourth, manure-based tea is what the E. coli concern is all about.&nbsp; We can make compost tea from manure-based compost without any E. coli in the final tea.&nbsp; BUT people also manage to make compost tea from manure-based compost that contains E. coli.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
The problem becomes, how do you KNOW that you managed to exit the E. coli from the tea?&nbsp; What are the parameters that allow E.coli (and other human pathogens) to be destroyed?&nbsp; We have done it, but now we need to understand what the important factors are in producing these teas routinely.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
So, that's where the situation is.&nbsp; Don't go ballistic about compost tea in general.&nbsp; But on plants that you eat without washing the surface of the material you are going to consume, stay away from compost tea made with manure-based compost. <BR>
<BR>
Elaine Ingham<BR>
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.<BR>
www.soilfoodweb.com</FONT></HTML>

--part1_ea.30eb72e4.2affc2fe_boundary--

.

From - Sun Nov 10 09:32:20 2002
X-UIDL: 322732449
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AA542F4800E8; Sun, 10 Nov 2002 09:16:52 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AA365E1D0090; Sun, 10 Nov 2002 09:16:22 -0500
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WQBJNBTS; Sun, 10 Nov 2002 09:15:54 -0500
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Sun Nov 10 09:16:13 2002 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 7375 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sun, 10 Nov 2002 09:16:00 -0500
Received: from 64.12.136.162 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Sun, 10 Nov 2002 09:15:59 -0500
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-m07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id
          d.ea.30eb72e4 (4446) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sun, 10 Nov
          2002 09:11:11 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="part1_ea.30eb72e4.2affc2fe_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows AU sub 10503
Message-ID:  <ea.30eb72e4.2affc2fe@aol.com>
Date:         Sun, 10 Nov 2002 09:11:10 EST
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: NOSB minutes on Compost Tea
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732449
Status: U

--part1_ea.30eb72e4.2affc2fe_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Let's clarify the different kinds of compost tea that you might be concerned
with, and ones that you don't need to be concerned with.  If I forget a
category, or you see the need to split a category, please chime in  -

First,  if you apply tea made from any source more than 90 to 120 days before
the crop surface would be consumed, there are no worries.

Second, compost tea made from plant-based, no human waste compost.  E. coli
is not present in the starting materials, not present in the compost.  This
category should be of no concern to folks with respect to the human pathogen
question.

Third, compost tea made with food waste material that could have low levels
of E. coli.  E. coli is fairly easily reduced to non-detectable levels with
this type of compost.  Testing might be necessary to document that E. coli is
not present in the final compost material, and that it is then safe to apply
to food plants.

Fourth, manure-based tea is what the E. coli concern is all about.  We can
make compost tea from manure-based compost without any E. coli in the final
tea.  BUT people also manage to make compost tea from manure-based compost
that contains E. coli.

The problem becomes, how do you KNOW that you managed to exit the E. coli
from the tea?  What are the parameters that allow E.coli (and other human
pathogens) to be destroyed?  We have done it, but now we need to understand
what the important factors are in producing these teas routinely.

So, that's where the situation is.  Don't go ballistic about compost tea in
general.  But on plants that you eat without washing the surface of the
material you are going to consume, stay away from compost tea made with
manure-based compost.

Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
www.soilfoodweb.com

--part1_ea.30eb72e4.2affc2fe_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">Let's clarify the different kinds of compost tea that you might be concerned with, and ones that you don't need to be concerned with.&nbsp; If I forget a category, or you see the need to split a category, please chime in&nbsp; - <BR>
<BR>
First,&nbsp; if you apply tea made from any source more than 90 to 120 days before the crop surface would be consumed, there are no worries.<BR>
<BR>
Second, compost tea made from plant-based, no human waste compost.&nbsp; E. coli is not present in the starting materials, not present in the compost.&nbsp; This category should be of no concern to folks with respect to the human pathogen question.<BR>
<BR>
Third, compost tea made with food waste material that could have low levels of E. coli.&nbsp; E. coli is fairly easily reduced to non-detectable levels with this type of compost.&nbsp; Testing might be necessary to document that E. coli is not present in the final compost material, and that it is then safe to apply to food plants.<BR>
<BR>
Fourth, manure-based tea is what the E. coli concern is all about.&nbsp; We can make compost tea from manure-based compost without any E. coli in the final tea.&nbsp; BUT people also manage to make compost tea from manure-based compost that contains E. coli.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
The problem becomes, how do you KNOW that you managed to exit the E. coli from the tea?&nbsp; What are the parameters that allow E.coli (and other human pathogens) to be destroyed?&nbsp; We have done it, but now we need to understand what the important factors are in producing these teas routinely.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
So, that's where the situation is.&nbsp; Don't go ballistic about compost tea in general.&nbsp; But on plants that you eat without washing the surface of the material you are going to consume, stay away from compost tea made with manure-based compost. <BR>
<BR>
Elaine Ingham<BR>
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.<BR>
www.soilfoodweb.com</FONT></HTML>

--part1_ea.30eb72e4.2affc2fe_boundary--

.

From - Sun Nov 10 23:06:38 2002
X-UIDL: 322732466
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A8092D1200C8; Sun, 10 Nov 2002 21:38:01 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A7D65C2D003E; Sun, 10 Nov 2002 21:37:10 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WQBJN2FJ; Sun, 10 Nov 2002 21:37:01 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 7410 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sun, 10 Nov 2002 21:37:22 -0500
Received: from 152.163.225.98 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Sun, 10 Nov 2002 21:37:22 -0500
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-r02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id
          d.1b9.9351b7a (3657) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sun, 10 Nov
          2002 21:36:56 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="part1_1b9.9351b7a.2b0071c8_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows AU sub 10503
Message-ID:  <1b9.9351b7a.2b0071c8@aol.com>
Date:         Sun, 10 Nov 2002 21:36:56 EST
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: best videos
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732466
Status: U

--part1_1b9.9351b7a.2b0071c8_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

There is a video by a company called Perfect-Blend in Othello Washington that
is pretty good.  Covers soil organisms, chemistry and physics.  Their website
is probably www.perfect-blend.com

There is a "Living Soil" video available from Helena Chemical Co.  (talk to
TPiatkowk@aol.com) I believe they have the US rights to copy and distribute
the Japanese video that we've all seen and enjoy.

Mary Appelhof (www.wormwoman.com) has several videos of soil arthropods and
earthworms that are outstanding.

We have a couple videos of  soil bacteria, fungi and protozoa, although for
training people on lab methods.  We would copy just the critter pictures if
you want.

I'll keep thinking and see if any more come to mind.

Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
www.soilfoodweb.com

--part1_1b9.9351b7a.2b0071c8_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">There is a video by a company called Perfect-Blend in Othello Washington that is pretty good.&nbsp; Covers soil organisms, chemistry and physics.&nbsp; Their website is probably www.perfect-blend.com<BR>
<BR>
There is a "Living Soil" video available from Helena Chemical Co.&nbsp; (talk to TPiatkowk@aol.com) I believe they have the US rights to copy and distribute the Japanese video that we've all seen and enjoy.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Mary Appelhof (www.wormwoman.com) has several videos of soil arthropods and earthworms that are outstanding.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
We have a couple videos of&nbsp; soil bacteria, fungi and protozoa, although for training people on lab methods.&nbsp; We would copy just the critter pictures if you want. <BR>
<BR>
I'll keep thinking and see if any more come to mind.<BR>
<BR>
Elaine Ingham<BR>
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.<BR>
www.soilfoodweb.com</FONT></HTML>

--part1_1b9.9351b7a.2b0071c8_boundary--

.

From - Mon Nov 11 11:57:03 2002
X-UIDL: 322732495
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A329256A00A0; Mon, 11 Nov 2002 10:56:25 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A2FC780700D4; Mon, 11 Nov 2002 10:55:40 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WQBJNSDB; Mon, 11 Nov 2002 10:55:11 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 7571 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 11 Nov 2002 10:55:32 -0500
Received: from 207.69.200.243 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Mon, 11 Nov 2002 10:55:31 -0500
Received: from sdn-ap-015watacop0287.dialsprint.net ([63.191.209.33]
          helo=decou.mindspring.com) by maynard.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp
          (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18BGu4-0002lE-00; Mon, 11 Nov 2002 10:55:09 -0500
X-Sender: ddecou@pop.mindspring.com (Unverified)
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
References: <ea.30eb72e4.2affc2fe@aol.com> <ea.30eb72e4.2affc2fe@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Message-ID:  <5.1.0.14.0.20021111075359.00a32bc0@pop.mindspring.com>
Date:         Mon, 11 Nov 2002 07:58:11 -0800
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Dave DeCou <ddecou@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: NOSB minutes on Compost Tea
Comments: To: Douglas Hinds <cedecor@gmx.net>
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <178103440843.20021110171905@gmx.net>
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732495
Status: U

At 03:19 PM 11/10/02, Douglas Hinds wrote:
>Hello Elaine, Steve & other saneters following this thread,
>
>
>Also interesting was the lack of understanding on this subject by
>those responsible for overseeing the USA's NOP, as demonstrated by
>the NOSB minutes. (Should I say I'm not surprised? Should I say I
>told you so years ago)?

Douglas and everyone - The NOSB does not have oversight of the NOP. It
provides recommendations to the NOP and has most of the control of the
materials list. The NOP's oversight comes from the current administration
with some pressure being exerted by Congress. Decisions by the NOP can have
different sources than the recommendations of the NOSB and often do.


>Douglas

Yours,
Dave DeCou

.

From - Tue Nov 12 23:41:49 2002
X-UIDL: 322732596
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AEA430F010C; Tue, 12 Nov 2002 21:53:24 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AEA63A801CA; Tue, 12 Nov 2002 21:53:26 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WQBJPGLM; Tue, 12 Nov 2002 21:53:16 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 8516 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Tue, 12 Nov 2002 21:53:38 -0500
Received: from 64.12.136.162 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Tue, 12 Nov 2002 21:53:37 -0500
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-m07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id
          d.165.1680a314 (4362) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Tue, 12 Nov
          2002 21:52:01 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="part1_165.1680a314.2b031851_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows AU sub 10503
Message-ID:  <165.1680a314.2b031851@aol.com>
Date:         Tue, 12 Nov 2002 21:52:01 EST
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: compost tea or compost
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732596
Status: U

--part1_165.1680a314.2b031851_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

You might want to go to the Soil Foodweb website, and look at the past issues
of the electronic magazine.  Quite a bit of information on the e-zines.

We also have the Compost Tea Brewing Manual, which has a summary of the
existing peer-reviewed literature, and some of the studies SFI has done.
We're working hard on the question of aeration, food resources in tea that
suppress E. coli, and the other organisms that need to be present to keep E.
coli from being in tea.   Once we have that figured out, we'll publish in the
peer-reviewed literature too.  I just don't like to publish incomplete
information.

Hope this helps.

Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
www.soilfoodweb.com

--part1_165.1680a314.2b031851_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">You might want to go to the Soil Foodweb website, and look at the past issues of the electronic magazine.&nbsp; Quite a bit of information on the e-zines.<BR>
<BR>
We also have the Compost Tea Brewing Manual, which has a summary of the existing peer-reviewed literature, and some of the studies SFI has done.&nbsp; We're working hard on the question of aeration, food resources in tea that suppress E. coli, and the other organisms that need to be present to keep E. coli from being in tea.&nbsp;&nbsp; Once we have that figured out, we'll publish in the peer-reviewed literature too.&nbsp; I just don't like to publish incomplete information.<BR>
<BR>
Hope this helps.<BR>
<BR>
Elaine Ingham<BR>
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.<BR>
www.soilfoodweb.com</FONT></HTML>

--part1_165.1680a314.2b031851_boundary--

.

From - Wed Nov 13 10:51:47 2002
X-UIDL: 322732617
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A13957011C; Wed, 13 Nov 2002 10:35:21 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A1376AF01AC; Wed, 13 Nov 2002 10:35:19 -0500
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WQBJP4MP; Wed, 13 Nov 2002 10:34:08 -0500
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Wed Nov 13 10:34:40 2002 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 8703 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Wed, 13 Nov 2002 10:34:23 -0500
Received: from 216.18.130.7 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Wed, 13 Nov 2002 10:34:22 -0500
Received: from benbrook.nidlink.com (sandpoint-56.imbris.com [216.18.141.56])
          by wind.imbris.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id gADFaJi66938 for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Wed, 13 Nov 2002 07:36:20 -0800 (PST)
X-Sender: benbrook@mail.nidlink.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Message-ID:  <2.2.32.20021113152329.0072a8a8@mail.nidlink.com>
Date:         Wed, 13 Nov 2002 07:23:29 -0800
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Chuck Benbrook <benbrook@HILLNET.COM>
Subject: Compost Tea and Organics
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732617
Status: U

        I have learned much from the ongoing dialogue re compost and compost
tea safety and thank the technical experts for taking the time to walk the
non-microbiologists among us through the issues/science.  I agree there is
much more to learn re how to assure compost safety and that the U.S., for
certain, has underinvested in this promising technology.

        Still, the unresolved scientific and food safety issues surrounding
compost, and especially compost tea, pose a major challenge for not just the
sustainable ag/organic community, but also for FDA/USDA and practising soil
microbiologists.  I appreciate the passion and knowledge Elaine brings to
this issue, and her patience and clarity in many recent posts, but her views
are not universally shared among the relatively small group of scientists
charged with the responsibility of advising the NOP/USDA re how to move
forward with the regulation of compost tea applications under the NOP.  I
have had a chance to discuss the recent work of the compost tea task force
with some of its members and am concerned by the degree to which the work of
the task force has come under attack, from a variety of quarters.

        We all know that some of the most strident enemies of organic
agriculture have latched onto compost safety as an Achilles Heel of organic
farming and that they will misrepresent the views of scientists, government
agencies, the local bartender to make their point and raise concerns.  Of
course they will also fully exploit any disagreements within the organic
community, a process now under way.

        The NOP/USDA, and the compost task force, have to be cautious and
deliberate in moving ahead, and indeed their recent report and decisions
could be regarded as consistent with the precautionary principle.  There
must be a very firm foundation if/when NOP/USDA endorses/permits
applications of compost tea under circumstances that might, even very
occassionally, result in a heightened risk of E. coli contamination.  Anyone
who believes that technology and processes now exist, or can readily be
developed, that would assure food safety following applications of compost
tea should take their case, and data, to the task force and other technical
advisory bodies. But as we muddle toward concensus, the conclusions of these
bodies must be accepted, even when some among us feel they are wrong.
Constructive responses in the face of misguided technical advisory body
conclusions is to assure that the committees in the future are composed of
open-minded people lacking conflicts of interest; are given the background
and data needed to understand the issues they have been asked to review; and
to package/present data and information before the committees in clear and
compelling ways.

        The way the organic community deals with potential compost food
safety challenges will be among the decisive issues shaping consumer
attitudes and interest in seeking out organic food.  I hope everyone with
scientific/technical skills and experience on these issues will find a way
to work cooperatively and together to assure that the pursuit of the disease
control and agronomic benefits of compost is carried out with a degree of
patience, caution, and humility, recognizing that there is much we do not
know and many lessons yet to be learned about the practical control and
application of these technologies in the real world.

        Chuck Benbrook

.

From - Wed Nov 13 14:01:47 2002
X-UIDL: 322732638
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AD841049012C; Wed, 13 Nov 2002 13:44:20 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AD792A70248; Wed, 13 Nov 2002 13:44:09 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WQBJQCMH; Wed, 13 Nov 2002 13:44:01 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 9141 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Wed, 13 Nov 2002 13:44:23 -0500
Received: from 213.165.64.20 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Wed, 13 Nov 2002 13:44:23 -0500
Received: (qmail 17227 invoked by uid 0); 13 Nov 2002 18:43:52 -0000
Received: from dup-200-64-189-5.prodigy.net.mx (HELO dir-gral) (200.64.189.5)
          by mail.gmx.net (mp013-rz3) with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 18:43:51 -0000
X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.61) Personal
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
References: <2.2.32.20021113152329.0072a8a8@mail.nidlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID:  <175346097578.20021113124330@gmx.net>
Date:         Wed, 13 Nov 2002 12:43:30 -0600
Reply-To:     Douglas Hinds <cedecor@gmx.net>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Douglas Hinds <cedecor@GMX.NET>
Organization: CeDeCoR, A. C.
Subject: Re: Compost Tea and Organics
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <2.2.32.20021113152329.0072a8a8@mail.nidlink.com>
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732638
Status: U

Hello Chuck & other saneters following this thread,

In relation to Chuck's post of Wednesday, November 13, 2002:

I will be brief. I agree with everything he said, yet suggest a
different solution.

While the concerns he mentioned are real, this particular issue
(food safety in relation to organic food grown using compost teas)
can and should be resolved by putting a fully operative HACCP system
in place. (HACCP = Hazard Analysis via Critical Control Points).

The presence of a HACCP system should resolve the issue and be taken
into account by those responsible for the NOSB & NOP.

Incidentally, I learned about HACCP from materials sent to me by
Charles Benbrook in 1989, when he was head of the Board on
Agriculture of the National Research Council. The book: "An
Evaluation of the Role of Microbiological Criteria for Foods And
Food Ingredients" (National Academy Press) was one of those sent
(others were related to animal health and disease, as well as food
products of an animal origin). HACCP systems for fruit and
vegetables do exist however.

Designing a functional HACCP for this issue could begin right here.

Does anyone else agree?

Douglas

CB> ... there is much more to learn re how to assure compost safety
CB> and ... the U.S., for certain, has underinvested in this
CB> promising technology.

CB> ... the unresolved scientific and food safety issues surrounding
CB> compost, and especially compost tea, pose a major challenge for
CB> not just the sustainable ag/organic community, but also for
CB> FDA/USDA and practising soil microbiologists. ...I have had a
CB> chance to discuss the recent work of the compost tea task force
CB> with some of its members and am concerned by the degree to which
CB> the work of the task force has come under attack, from a variety
CB> of quarters.

CB> We all know that some of the most strident enemies of organic
CB> agriculture have latched onto compost safety as an Achilles Heel
CB> of organic farming and that they will misrepresent the views of
CB> scientists, government agencies, the local bartender to make
CB> their point and raise concerns. Of course they will also fully
CB> exploit any disagreements within the organic community, a
CB> process now under way.

CB> The NOP/USDA, and the compost task force, have to be cautious
CB> and deliberate in moving ahead, and indeed their recent report
CB> and decisions could be regarded as consistent with the
CB> precautionary principle. There must be a very firm foundation
CB> if/when NOP/USDA endorses/permits applications of compost tea
CB> under circumstances that might, even very occassionally, result
CB> in a heightened risk of E. coli contamination.

CB> Anyone who believes that technology and processes now exist, or
CB> can readily be developed, that would assure food safety
CB> following applications of compost tea should take their case,
CB> and data, to the task force and other technical advisory bodies.

CB> But as we muddle toward concensus, the conclusions of these
CB> bodies must be accepted, even when some among us feel they are
CB> wrong.

CB> Constructive responses in the face of misguided technical
CB> advisory body conclusions is to assure that the committees in
CB> the future are composed of open-minded people lacking conflicts
CB> of interest; are given the background and data needed to
CB> understand the issues they have been asked to review; and to
CB> package/present data and information before the committees in
CB> clear and compelling ways.

CB> The way the organic community deals with potential compost food
CB> safety challenges will be among the decisive issues shaping
CB> consumer attitudes and interest in seeking out organic food. I
CB> hope everyone with scientific/technical skills and experience on
CB> these issues will find a way to work cooperatively and together
CB> to assure that the pursuit of the disease control and agronomic
CB> benefits of compost is carried out with a degree of patience,
CB> caution, and humility, recognizing that there is much we do not
CB> know and many lessons yet to be learned about the practical
CB> control and application of these technologies in the real world.

CB>         Chuck Benbrook

.

From - Thu Nov 14 06:26:05 2002
X-UIDL: 322732672
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A5558AB00C4; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 06:13:25 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A553DEB10024; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 06:13:23 -0500
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WQBJQ4S9; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 06:12:01 -0500
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Thu Nov 14 06:12:36 2002 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 9483 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Thu, 14 Nov 2002 06:12:17 -0500
Received: from 194.109.127.138 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 06:12:17 -0500
Received: from uranus (213-84-241-175.adsl.xs4all.nl [213.84.241.175]) by
          smtpzilla2.xs4all.nl (8.12.0/8.12.0) with ESMTP id gAEBBrHw003525;
          Thu, 14 Nov 2002 12:11:53 +0100 (CET)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Priority: normal
References: <2.2.32.20021113152329.0072a8a8@mail.nidlink.com>
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Content-description: Mail message body
Message-ID:  <3DD38F31.27758.3D9FA0@localhost>
Date:         Thu, 14 Nov 2002 11:55:29 +0100
Reply-To:     wdl@xminy.nl
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         "wdl@xminy.nl" <wdl@XMINY.NL>
Subject: Re: Compost Tea and Organics
Comments: To: Douglas Hinds <cedecor@gmx.net>
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <175346097578.20021113124330@gmx.net>
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732672
Status: U

Douglas,

For once I may disagree with you. I am not too fond of HACCP since the way it acts, it
makes impossible all kind of traditional ways of foodmaking and just favours large
industries. Besides, I do not see a real need. Does the overview by Dr. Ingham not give
sufficient overview of when there is a risk? Her analysis seems to be "haccp" enough to
me.

regards
wytze


On 13 Nov 2002 at 12:43, Douglas Hinds wrote:

Hello Chuck & other saneters following this thread,

In relation to Chuck's post of Wednesday, November 13, 2002:

I will be brief. I agree with everything he said, yet suggest a
different solution.

While the concerns he mentioned are real, this particular issue
(food safety in relation to organic food grown using compost teas)
can and should be resolved by putting a fully operative HACCP system
in place. (HACCP = Hazard Analysis via Critical Control Points).

The presence of a HACCP system should resolve the issue and be taken
into account by those responsible for the NOSB & NOP.

Incidentally, I learned about HACCP from materials sent to me by
Charles Benbrook in 1989, when he was head of the Board on
Agriculture of the National Research Council. The book: "An
Evaluation of the Role of Microbiological Criteria for Foods And
Food Ingredients" (National Academy Press) was one of those sent
(others were related to animal health and disease, as well as food
products of an animal origin). HACCP systems for fruit and
vegetables do exist however.

Designing a functional HACCP for this issue could begin right here.

Does anyone else agree?

Douglas

CB> ... there is much more to learn re how to assure compost safety
CB> and ... the U.S., for certain, has underinvested in this
CB> promising technology.

CB> ... the unresolved scientific and food safety issues surrounding
CB> compost, and especially compost tea, pose a major challenge for
CB> not just the sustainable ag/organic community, but also for
CB> FDA/USDA and practising soil microbiologists. ...I have had a
CB> chance to discuss the recent work of the compost tea task force
CB> with some of its members and am concerned by the degree to which
CB> the work of the task force has come under attack, from a variety
CB> of quarters.

CB> We all know that some of the most strident enemies of organic
CB> agriculture have latched onto compost safety as an Achilles Heel
CB> of organic farming and that they will misrepresent the views of
CB> scientists, government agencies, the local bartender to make
CB> their point and raise concerns. Of course they will also fully
CB> exploit any disagreements within the organic community, a
CB> process now under way.

CB> The NOP/USDA, and the compost task force, have to be cautious
CB> and deliberate in moving ahead, and indeed their recent report
CB> and decisions could be regarded as consistent with the
CB> precautionary principle. There must be a very firm foundation
CB> if/when NOP/USDA endorses/permits applications of compost tea
CB> under circumstances that might, even very occassionally, result
CB> in a heightened risk of E. coli contamination.

CB> Anyone who believes that technology and processes now exist, or
CB> can readily be developed, that would assure food safety
CB> following applications of compost tea should take their case,
CB> and data, to the task force and other technical advisory bodies.

CB> But as we muddle toward concensus, the conclusions of these
CB> bodies must be accepted, even when some among us feel they are
CB> wrong.

CB> Constructive responses in the face of misguided technical
CB> advisory body conclusions is to assure that the committees in
CB> the future are composed of open-minded people lacking conflicts
CB> of interest; are given the background and data needed to
CB> understand the issues they have been asked to review; and to
CB> package/present data and information before the committees in
CB> clear and compelling ways.

CB> The way the organic community deals with potential compost food
CB> safety challenges will be among the decisive issues shaping
CB> consumer attitudes and interest in seeking out organic food. I
CB> hope everyone with scientific/technical skills and experience on
CB> these issues will find a way to work cooperatively and together
CB> to assure that the pursuit of the disease control and agronomic
CB> benefits of compost is carried out with a degree of patience,
CB> caution, and humility, recognizing that there is much we do not
CB> know and many lessons yet to be learned about the practical
CB> control and application of these technologies in the real world.

CB>         Chuck Benbrook

.

From - Thu Nov 14 12:56:06 2002
X-UIDL: 322732691
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A17F18E01AA; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 12:46:39 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A17ABBE0254; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 12:46:34 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WQBJRCA4; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 12:45:57 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 9724 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Thu, 14 Nov 2002 12:46:19 -0500
Received: from 152.163.225.101 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 12:46:19 -0500
Received: from Aquatfs@aol.com by imo-r05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id
          d.d3.1504ef40 (4592) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Thu, 14 Nov
          2002 12:45:44 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="part1_d3.1504ef40.2b053b47_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10641
Message-ID:  <d3.1504ef40.2b053b47@aol.com>
Date:         Thu, 14 Nov 2002 12:45:43 EST
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Aquatfs@AOL.COM
Subject: Compost Tea Safety
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732691
Status: U

--part1_d3.1504ef40.2b053b47_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

The suggestion by Douglas to incorporate HACCP into the production of compost
tea would be a step in the right direction, but may not be the ultimate
answer. There are significant differences between the theory and practice of
HACCP. If HACCP is applied and limited to the boundaries of a production
facility, the system may or may not work. The HACCP system works best if it
is implemented throughout the food chain. Meat processors have HACCP programs
but their suppliers (feedlots) may not. As a consequence, the quality and
microbial contamination of the incoming materials to the meat processing
plant may be very variable. Unless there is a kill step for pathogens (and
even then), the output from the plant will be dependent on the quality of the
incoming materials and the effectiveness of the meat plant's HACCP program.
In short, I am suggesting that we must more closely scrutinize the sources
and quality of materials used to make compost and compost teas. You can't
make a silk purse out of a sow's ear (I think that's the old saying?). For
example, proper composting ensures a reduction in pathogens. Can it achieve a
1 log, 2 log, 5 log, etc reduction? Can the starting pathogen load be high
enough that the expected X log reduction in pathogens leaves a residual load
in the finished product that is of concern?

We focus primarily on the methods used for producing compost teas. I think
that there should be an equal focus on the raw materials used for producing
compost teas. The methods that were used to produce the raw materials used
for making compost and compost teas must be scrutinized. I do not think that
it is possible to create composting and compost tea production systems that
can accommodate an infinite variability in the raw material quality. In
short, the HACCP concept may be useful, but only if it is applied from one
end to the other of the food production system. One of the problems that we
will face with this concept is that we may find a chicken and egg scenario.
In a predominantly non-organic food production system, it may be difficult to
find sufficient quantities of suitable materials to process for organic
farming inputs, especially for large scale organic farms.

Alan Ismond, P.Eng.
Aqua-Terra Consultants

--part1_d3.1504ef40.2b053b47_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">The suggestion by Douglas to incorporate HACCP into the production of compost tea would be a step in the right direction, but may not be the ultimate answer. There are significant differences between the theory and practice of HACCP. If HACCP is applied and limited to the boundaries of a production facility, the system may or may not work. The HACCP system works best if it is implemented throughout the food chain. Meat processors have HACCP programs but their suppliers (feedlots) may not. As a consequence, the quality and microbial contamination of the incoming materials to the meat processing plant may be very variable. Unless there is a kill step for pathogens (and even then), the output from the plant will be dependent on the quality of the incoming materials and the effectiveness of the meat plant's HACCP program. In short, I am suggesting that we must more closely scrutinize the sources and quality of materials used tWe focus primarily on the methods used for producing compost teas. I think that there should be an equal focus on the raw materials used for producing compost teas. The methods that were used to produce the raw materials used for making compost and compost teas must be scrutinized. I do not think that it is possible to create composting and compost tea production systems that can accommodate an infinite variability in the raw material quality. In short, the HACCP concept may be useful, but only if it is applied from one end to the other of the food production system. One of the problems that we will face with this concept is that we may find a chicken and egg scenario. In a predominantly non-organic food production system, it may be difficult to find sufficient quantities of suitable materials to process for organic farming inputs, especially for large scale organic farms.<BR>
<BR>
Alan Ismond, P.Eng.<BR>
Aqua-Terra Consultants</FONT></HTML>

--part1_d3.1504ef40.2b053b47_boundary--

.

From - Thu Nov 14 16:36:08 2002
X-UIDL: 322732713
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A323323C00A8; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:18:27 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A32114A202A2; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:18:25 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WQBJR326; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:18:12 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 10137 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:18:34 -0500
Received: from 213.165.64.20 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:18:33 -0500
Received: (qmail 21596 invoked by uid 0); 14 Nov 2002 21:18:08 -0000
Received: from dup-200-64-240-101.prodigy.net.mx (HELO dir-gral)
          (200.64.240.101) by mail.gmx.net (mp020-rz3) with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002
          21:18:08 -0000
X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.61) Personal
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
References: <d3.1504ef40.2b053b47@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID:  <62441764812.20021114151757@gmx.net>
Date:         Thu, 14 Nov 2002 15:17:57 -0600
Reply-To:     Douglas Hinds <cedecor@gmx.net>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Douglas Hinds <cedecor@GMX.NET>
Organization: CeDeCoR, A. C.
Subject: Re: Compost Tea Safety
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <d3.1504ef40.2b053b47@aol.com>
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732713
Status: U

Hello Alan & other saneters following this interesting thread,

Alan said:

AI> The suggestion by Douglas to incorporate HACCP into the
AI> production of compost tea would be a step in the right
AI> direction, but may not be the ultimate answer. There are
AI> significant differences between the theory and practice of
AI> HACCP.

AI> If HACCP is applied and limited to the boundaries of a
AI> production facility, the system may or may not work. The HACCP
AI> system works best if it is implemented throughout the food
AI> chain.

That is also true of the audit trail used with organic food
production & distribution.

AI> Meat processors have HACCP programs but their suppliers
AI> (feedlots) may not. As a consequence, the quality and microbial
AI> contamination of the incoming materials to the meat processing
AI> plant may be very variable.

AI> Unless there is a kill step for pathogens (and even then), the
AI> output from the plant will be dependent on the quality of the
AI> incoming materials and the effectiveness of the meat plant's
AI> HACCP program.

AI> In short, I am suggesting that we must more closely scrutinize
AI> the sources and quality of materials used to make compost and
AI> compost teas.

AI> You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear (I think that's
AI> the old saying?). For example, proper composting ensures a
AI> reduction in pathogens. Can it achieve a 1 log, 2 log, 5 log,
AI> etc reduction? Can the starting pathogen load be high enough
AI> that the expected X log reduction in pathogens leaves a residual
AI> load in the finished product that is of concern?

So additional research is needed.

AI> We focus primarily on the methods used for producing compost
AI> teas. I think that there should be an equal focus on the raw
AI> materials used for producing compost teas.

AI> The methods that were used to produce the raw materials used
AI> for making compost and compost teas must be scrutinized.

AI> I do not think that it is possible to create composting and
AI> compost tea production systems that can accommodate an infinite
AI> variability in the raw material quality.

AI> In short, the HACCP concept may be useful, but only if it is
AI> applied from one end to the other of the food production system.

Very true.

AI> One of the problems that we will face with this concept is that
AI> we may find a chicken and egg scenario. In a predominantly
AI> non-organic food production system, it may be difficult to find
AI> sufficient quantities of suitable materials to process for
AI> organic farming inputs, especially for large scale organic
AI> farms.

AI> Alan Ismond, P.Eng.
AI> Aqua-Terra Consultants

Unlike ISO standards, HACCP standards are designed specifically for
food. Alan refers to meat, which is in fact the area in which HACCP
has bee applied the most, since the danger of bacteriological
contamination is greatest there.

However, HACCP systems do exist for fruit and vegetable (try running
<"fruit and vegetable"+HACCP> through a search engine) and probably do
for grains also.

I can't take issue with any of what Alan said above. HACCP is a
discipline I intend to study further and suspect that some benefit
will result from doing so.

As for it being "difficult to find sufficient quantities of suitable
materials to process for organic farming inputs" from off-farm
sources, perhaps standards for community based organic input
production can be developed and implemented. The standards will help
drive doing what's necessary.

Written standards may be part of what distinguishes Man from other
organisms (although I can't swear they don't have their own and in
fact suspect they do, probably better ones than ours), so perhaps
well grounded, complete written standards are needed to help put Man
back on track.

Douglas

.

From - Thu Nov 14 16:36:12 2002
X-UIDL: 322732714
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A4D9843027C; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:25:45 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A4D7E2D01AC; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:25:43 -0500
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WQBJRPCF; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:25:36 -0500
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Thu Nov 14 16:26:09 2002 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 10146 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:25:50 -0500
Received: from 213.165.64.20 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:25:50 -0500
Received: (qmail 23081 invoked by uid 0); 14 Nov 2002 21:25:24 -0000
Received: from dup-200-64-240-101.prodigy.net.mx (HELO dir-gral)
          (200.64.240.101) by mail.gmx.net (mp011-rz3) with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002
          21:25:24 -0000
X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.61) Personal
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID:  <80442201578.20021114152514@gmx.net>
Date:         Thu, 14 Nov 2002 15:25:14 -0600
Reply-To:     Douglas Hinds <cedecor@gmx.net>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Comments:     Resent-From: Douglas Hinds <cedecor@gmx.net>
Comments:     Originally-From: Douglas Hinds <cedecor@gmx.net>
From:         Douglas Hinds <cedecor@GMX.NET>
Organization: CeDeCoR, A. C.
Subject: Re: Compost Tea and Organics
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732714
Status: U

Hi wytze & other saneters following this thread,

Responding to your reply sent today, Thursday, November 14, 2002:

wxn> For once I may disagree with you.

I am not a HACCP expert and am certainly interested in learning your
reasons for not liking HACCP.

wxn> I am not too fond of HACCP since the way it acts, it makes
wxn> impossible all kind of traditional ways of foodmaking and just
wxn> favours large industries.

Could you explain that point by point?

(1):- that: "the way it acts, it makes impossible all kind of
      traditional ways of foodmaking", and

2).- that it "just favours large industries".

wxn> Besides, I do not see a real need.

I was relating to the points raised by Dr. Benbrook. Chuck pointed
out that the organic food movement is under fire by corporate
interests in the industries that conventional food production
systems depend on.

He also pointed out that bacterial contamination was the Achilles
Heel of the organic movement (which is logical, since organic food
is relatively free of contamination from the toxic chemical produced
by the corporate interests mentioned above - so what other front can
they attack organic / sustainable / biological / ecological /
alternative agriculture from)?

Did you read Sal's post (and Sal is a long time and very dedicated
organic grower) in which he stated very clearly his rejection of
eating "shit sprayed" food?

So we have a controversy here. Let's look at compost and EM teas. In
the best of cases, compost and EM teas offer three major advantages.
As I understand it:

1).- Compost teas constitute a way to apply the nutritional elements
     compost offers via irrigation or even via a foliar application.

2).- Compost teas contain growth stimulating phytohormones, which
     are produced by beneficial microorganisms contained in compost
     and intentionally concentrated (by feeding them natural sugars)
     in compost teas.

3).- Compost teas also contain antibiotic substances that have
     proven to be effective against pathogens that cause crop
     diseases. These antibiotic substances are produced by the
     same beneficial microorganisms contained in compost and
     intentionally concentrated (by feeding them natural sugars)
     in compost teas that produce the phytohormones.

Conventional agricultural productions systems make war on all living
organisms except the economic crop itself. Conventional agricultural
productions systems are ideally implemented in a sterile soil.
Ideally, the soil is sterilized before planting in these systems.
The concept of irradiated food is based on the same mentality. I
have talked at length to those that produce and sell irradiation
systems and they firmly belive that all food should be and someday
will be irradiated.

For my part, I am convinced that these people are mistaken (if not
totally insane).

Nevertheless,they are responding to real concerns (the existence of
pathogenic microorganisms) that many people do share.

Since organic / sustainable / biological / ecological / alternative
agriculture is based a different principle, a principle that
involves many beneficial organisms, including beneficial
microorganisms, we must somehow distinguish between good and bad
forms of life.

Beyond that, a totally different mindset is called for.

While off-farm input substitution is a legally acceptable means of
qualifying for organic certification, the major benefits of organic
growing are derived when basing one's operation on an organism based
agriculture, which takes into account the full life cycles of all
organisms involved, beginning with the farmer (who begins by
designing the project and ending with the consumer (who converts the
pineapple into energy, constructs needed tissues with it's
nutritional contents, and is motivated by it in subtle yet important
ways).

Those additional participants, whose performance is significant in
relation to the success of this joint venture (involving a diverse
series of organisms) called sustainable (or organic) agriculture,
can include:

A).- The crop itself;

B).- Soil microorganisms, as well as other microorganisms that can
     dwell on the surfaces (and sometimes within the tissues) of (or
     in symbiosis with) the plant,

C).- Other non-microbial inhabitants of the soil (i.e. earthworms);

D).- Birds, insects, mammals or other either beneficial or
     destructive organisms (see below).

E).- Crop disease organisms;

F).- Crop pests (including vectors);

G).- Predators, parasites and pathogens of crop pests and crop
     disease organisms.

H).- Companion crops, which include:

  i).-  Crop Rotations

 ii).-  Green manures

iii).-  Plants that repel pests

 iv).-  Plants that attractant pests

   v).- Plants that attract other beneficial organisms

  vi).- Plants that contain substances that are extracted and applied
        separately for achieving any of the above.

wxn> Does the overview by Dr. Ingham not give sufficient overview of
wxn> when there is a risk?

I don't think it goes far enough, and I think she agrees with that
analysis, as which is why she's doing the work she's doing at
present.

As I understand it (in simplified terms), Elaine claims that making
compost aerobically produces environmental conditions conducive to
the growth of beneficial microorganisms, which in turn, prevent
pathological microorganisms from growing.

I can accept that. However, she herself has stated that we need to
know more about how that occurs. And that is why she continues to do
research directed at investigating and resolving these issues (which
she will publish when done).

wxn> Her analysis seems to be "haccp" enough to me.

Enough? I don't think it addresses the issue raised by Dr. Benbrook.
In order to really GUARANTEE that food raised using compost teas are
REALLY free of pathological microorganisms, we need to test for
them. And that is precisely what Dr. Ingham has recommended for
compost teas made from compost made from materials that included
materials of an animal origin. (As I understood her, she has
recommended either using compost of a vegetable origin or testing
for pathogens).

Let's just look at what HACCP stands for: Hazard (in this case,
pathological microorganisms), Analysis (testing for them &/or taking
steps designed to insure their absence) via Critical Control Points.
I interpret that to mean that the entire operation is analyzed in
order to determine:

1).- At which points are the Hazards (the presence of pathological
     microorganisms in food), are likely to present themselves and
     infiltrate the operation,;

2).- What can be done to minimize that risk (the concept of hazard
     implies a risk - in this case the risk that a product will
     become contaminated by pathological microorganisms);

3).- At what point and in what way can that risk be observed; and

4).- At what point and in what way can that risk be minimized?

I think the concept is valid and should be extended to other
possible sources of contamination, even for organic food production.
For instance, I know a melon grower whose product was contaminated
by ammonia contained in the water used to form a layer of crushed
ice that is commonly applied to the top layer of a load of boxed and
palletized melons. The ammonium probably got in during the ice
making process.

This friend is the largest private (non co-op) melon grower in the
USA. But no business is so big it can't be wiped out by a few deaths
of even a rash of serious illness traced to their food.
Contamination of one's product is the nightmare of even the
strongest competitors, and not just those producing organic food.

HACCP methodology represents an option I intend to look into
further and would appreciate your amplifying on your comments.

Douglas

.

From - Fri Nov 15 11:36:06 2002
X-UIDL: 322732754
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AF8E2BF3009A; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 11:23:42 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AF897469003C; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 11:23:37 -0500
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WQBJSH06; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 11:23:10 -0500
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Fri Nov 15 11:23:45 2002 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 10833 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Fri, 15 Nov 2002 11:23:24 -0500
Received: from 213.46.243.18 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 11:23:24 -0500
Received: from wytzelan.a2000.nl ([24.132.30.100]) by amsfep12-int.chello.nl
          (InterMail vM.5.01.03.06 201-253-122-118-106-20010523) with ESMTP id
          <20021115162301.LYGD1261.amsfep12-int.chello.nl@wytzelan.a2000.nl>;
          Fri, 15 Nov 2002 17:23:01 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c)
Message-ID:  <3DD54621.22222.2E86CC@localhost>
Date:         Fri, 15 Nov 2002 19:08:17 +0100
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         geno@ZAP.A2000.NL
Subject: Re: Compost Tea and Organics
Comments: To: Douglas Hinds <cedecor@gmx.net>
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <80442201578.20021114152514@gmx.net>
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 4. ROUTING
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732754
Status: U

Hello Douglas and others,

We may disagree less than at first thought, it's just i have grown a
little bit allergic to the word haccp. I do not claim to be a haccp
expert either, but I came across haccp since it was developed and
introduced when my little business was active and I saw trouble
was coming with haccp for small companies like mine.
I am not against the risk analysis part of haccp per se. My biggest
problems are with the solutions that are being prescribed and by
the way haccp is implemented. I'll try to explain: to my
understanding it was originally the WHO who asked for a haccp
system including the primary sector, so really from the land to the
plate of the consumer. Quite soon in the political process the
primary production phase was emitted, so haccp would start as
soon as the products came form the land. I agree with what Allen
said about this. It can lead to the situation that a completely
polluted piece of meat is being handled with all kind of extreme
hygiene measures. One has to make sure that this piece of meat
is stored and transported at a certain temperature strictly etc.
Also, certain cleaning materials have to be used and one can't use
organic cleaning materials under haccp. Certain old ways of
producing foods like are no longer allowed under haccp. Here you
have to think for example about smoking foods on certain types of
wood. Some of these old practices (used safely for hundreds, if not
thousands of years) are just not allowed under haccp. You can
also think about foodproducts that use raw ingredients.
So, in the sphere of solutions it is all based on a kind of
conventional chemical-scientific thinking. Concerning the risk
analysis procedure, I think one has to watch out for similar faulty
scientific thinking in defining what are risks.
I do agree with identifying risks and I do agree this should start with
the primary producers. If I get clean, healthy seeds and foods, I do
not need to take all kind of extra measures in order to not produce
contaminated foods. If the eggs I get are healthy, I need to worry
less when I use them raw.
And if they are not I can do what I want and still be not safe. When
my little seedcompany turned in a cateringservice I always used 90-
95% organic ingredients. I never had one problem with
foodpoisining and I know cause I worked in an office where I saw
the people everyday. Only once there was a small incident and that
could be traced back to a non-organic cheese, which was bought
at the market in a week during summer when it was hot. The
person affected appeared to be in bad health also so all in all it was
a very minor incident. I never did haccp but I did observe the
advises given to kitchenexploiters: be careful with meat (separate it)
do not put very hot and very cold foods to close next to each other
and things like that. Now, with haccp, I have a problem. If I would
want to produce foods for some company, most if not all will ask
for haccp certification. For the price alone I could not afford it and
besides, I refuse to be obliged to use chemical cleaning material
when I know organic ones are just fine.
Concerning compost teas, I learned from the inforamtion posted
here that only in specific cases there can be a problem. Also the
way of how to avoid the problem is known. What more do you
need?  Learning more about how a certain process works, after you
know it is a safe process, is not really haccp but just more learning
about how something works. I hope I made a bit clear how I look at
it.

regards
wytze

.

From - Fri Nov 15 17:46:06 2002
X-UIDL: 322732772
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A65DE71C0074; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 17:34:05 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A65B7ED8003C; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 17:34:03 -0500
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WQBJS44Y; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 17:33:46 -0500
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Fri Nov 15 17:34:23 2002 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 11016 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Fri, 15 Nov 2002 17:34:02 -0500
Received: from 213.165.65.60 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 17:34:01 -0500
Received: (qmail 6525 invoked by uid 0); 15 Nov 2002 22:33:35 -0000
Received: from dup-200-64-240-13.prodigy.net.mx (HELO dir-gral) (200.64.240.13)
          by mail.gmx.net (mp023-rz3) with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 22:33:35 -0000
X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.61) Personal
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
References: <3DD54621.22222.2E86CC@localhost>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID:  <48532689734.20021115163321@gmx.net>
Date:         Fri, 15 Nov 2002 16:33:21 -0600
Reply-To:     Douglas Hinds <cedecor@gmx.net>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Douglas Hinds <cedecor@GMX.NET>
Organization: CeDeCoR, A. C.
Subject: Re: Compost Tea and Organics
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <3DD54621.22222.2E86CC@localhost>
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732772
Status: U

Hello wytze & other saneters following this thread,

Friday, November 15, 2002 you said:

w> We may disagree less than at first thought,

I'm glad.

w> it's just i have grown a little bit allergic to the word haccp.

Allergy's stem from hypersensitivity.

w> I do not claim to be a haccp expert either, but I came across
w> haccp since it was developed and introduced when my little
w> business was active and I saw trouble was coming with haccp for
w> small companies like mine.

w> I am not against the risk analysis part of haccp per se. My
w> biggest problems are with the solutions that are being prescribed
w> and by the way haccp is implemented. I'll try to explain:

w> to my understanding it was originally the WHO who asked for a
w> haccp system including the primary sector, so really from the
w> land to the plate of the consumer. Quite soon in the political
w> process the primary production phase was emitted, so haccp would
w> start as soon as the products came form the land. I agree with
w> what Allen said about this. It can lead to the situation that a
w> completely polluted piece of meat is being handled with all kind
w> of extreme hygiene measures.

That to me is very un-HACCP-like way of doing things.

w> One has to make sure that this piece of meat is stored and
w> transported at a certain temperature strictly etc. Also, certain
w> cleaning materials have to be used and one can't use organic
w> cleaning materials under haccp. Certain old ways of producing
w> foods like are no longer allowed under haccp.

In that case, we are going to adapt HACCP principles to our own
criteria. If HACCP can focus on toxic residues (which it can and
should), a better HACCP will be the result. As I understand it,
HACCP is not like ISO, that has to be administered or supervised by
someone in the ISO club; HACCP to me is a discipline that can be
applied by the people who use it.

w> Here you have to think for example about smoking foods on certain
w> types of wood. Some of these old practices (used safely for
w> hundreds, if not thousands of years) are just not allowed under
w> haccp.

Who's HACCP? You are describing a very unenlightened HACCP
implementation.

w> You can also think about food products that use raw ingredients.
w> So, in the sphere of solutions it is all based on a kind of
w> conventional chemical-scientific thinking.

We will do our own risk evaluation and set up a program based on our
own goals.

w> Concerning the risk analysis procedure, I think one has to watch
w> out for similar faulty scientific thinking in defining what are
w> risks. I do agree with identifying risks and I do agree this
w> should start with the primary producers. If I get clean, healthy
w> seeds and foods, I do not need to take all kind of extra measures
w> in order to not produce contaminated foods.

That is true.

w> If the eggs I get are healthy, I need to worry less when I use
w> them raw.

w> And if they are not I can do what I want and still be not safe.

The same is true with milk. Pasteurizing fecal material along with
milk form tubercular cows is not the solution.

w> When my little seed company turned in a catering service I always
w> used 90- 95% organic ingredients. I never had one problem with
w> food poisining and I know cause I worked in an office where I saw
w> the people everyday. Only once there was a small incident and
w> that could be traced back to a non-organic cheese, which was
w> bought at the market in a week during summer when it was hot. The
w> person affected appeared to be in bad health also so all in all
w> it was a very minor incident.

w> I never did haccp but I did observe the advises given to
w> kitchen exploiters: be careful with meat (separate it) do not put
w> very hot and very cold foods to close next to each other and
w> things like that.

It's a rules based method that deals with known threats. It tries to
insure that good practices are developed, and good will mean what WE
intend it to mean.

w> Now, with haccp, I have a problem. If I would want to produce
w> foods for some company, most if not all will ask for haccp
w> certification.

w> For the price alone I could not afford it

You are talking about something administered from someone outside of
your operation. My impression was that HACCP is a discipline anyone
can administer.

w> and besides, I refuse to be obliged to use chemical cleaning
w> material when I know organic ones are just fine.

If the organic ones do the job, that can be demonstrated and
included in your implementation.

w> Concerning compost teas, I learned from the information posted
w> here that only in specific cases there can be a problem. Also the
w> way of how to avoid the problem is known. What more do you need?

First of all, I'm focusing on the properties that compost tea is
said to possess. These properties are provided by microorganisms. I
want to know more about the microorganisms and the substances they
produce. Compost is simply a medium, an environment that's apt for
the growth of these organisms. There may be other ways to cultivate
them. So what I am interested in is cultivating these beneficial
microorganisms and applying them to my propagative material, crops
and the land itself, whether through compost, compost teas or an
inoculant production tank.

Beyond that, remember the melon growers problem I mentioned. Less
industrialized countries have a particular problem when shipping
food to the USA. At whatever point our market share begins to
threaten the major players (the ones with the well known brand
names), we will become potential targets for being smeared for
something that may not even be true.

Running a series of HACCP-like checks will allow us to demonstrate
that our products left our premises and arrived in a state free of
pathogens. This will help defend us against any unwarranted attacks
or intentionally planted contamination.

w> Learning more about how a certain process works, after you know
w> it is a safe process, is not really haccp but just more learning
w> about how something works. I hope I made a bit clear how I look
w> at it.

You had a run in with HACCP implementations that were simply
additional manifestations of the root of the problem.

In that case, if the acronym HACCP has been co-opted the way organic
and ISO have, if we can't adapt it to our own criteria, knowledge
and experience, we'll just call it something else.

Douglas

.

From - Fri Nov 15 20:16:07 2002
X-UIDL: 322732775
X-Mozilla-Status: 0000
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AA4C38DC01CC; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 20:07:24 -0500
Received: from intrex.net [209.42.230.82] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AA4ADF50194; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 20:07:22 -0500
Message-ID: <3DD5C66C.2743897D@intrex.net>
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 20:15:40 -0800
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@intrex.net>
Organization: http://market-farming.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: lfl@intrex.net
Subject: Suppliers/URL's for Mycorrhizae
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
 boundary="------------94C1A934704C545760EBE711"
X-Declude-Sender: lflondon@intrex.net [209.42.230.82]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
X-UIDL: 322732775
Status: U

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------94C1A934704C545760EBE711
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/1998-January/012108.html
-- 
L.F.London 
lfl@intrex.net
http://market-farming.com  
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/pcwiki/index.php/london
--------------94C1A934704C545760EBE711
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii;
 name="012108.html"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline;
 filename="012108.html"
Content-Base: "http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/per
	maculture/1998-January/012108.html"
Content-Location: "http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/per
	maculture/1998-January/012108.html"

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
 <HEAD>
   <TITLE> Suppliers/URL's for Mycorrhizae
   </TITLE>
   <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" >
   <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:steved%40ncatark.uark.edu">
   <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow">
   
   <LINK REL="Previous"  HREF="012104.html">
   <LINK REL="Next"  HREF="012101.html">
 </HEAD>
 <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff">
   <H1>Suppliers/URL's for Mycorrhizae
   </H1>
    <B>Steve Diver
    </B> 
    <A HREF="mailto:steved%40ncatark.uark.edu"
       TITLE="Suppliers/URL's for Mycorrhizae">steved@ncatark.uark.edu
       </A><BR>
    <I>Fri, 16 Jan 1998 00:42:15 +0000</I>
    <P><UL>
        <LI> Previous message: <A HREF="012104.html">Govt &quot;Organic&quot; Stds
</A></li>
        <LI> Next message: <A HREF="012101.html">OFMA and some other issues and opinions (fwd)
</A></li>
         <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> 
              <a href="date.html#12108">[ date ]</a>
              <a href="thread.html#12108">[ thread ]</a>
              <a href="subject.html#12108">[ subject ]</a>
              <a href="author.html#12108">[ author ]</a>
         </LI>
       </UL>
    <HR>  
<!--beginarticle-->
<PRE>========================================= 
1.       Suppliers of Mycorrhizal Inoculant
=========================================
United States: 

Bio-Organics
601 Daily Drive #118
Camarilo, CA  93010
800-604-0444
<A HREF="mailto:don@bio-organics.com">don@bio-organics.com</A>
<A HREF="http://www.bio-organics.com">http://www.bio-organics.com</A>

BioScientific, Inc.
4405 S. Litchfield Rd.
Avondale, AZ  85232
602-932-4588

BioTerra Technologies, Inc.
9491 W. Pioneer Avenue
Las Vegas, NV 89117
702-256-6404 
702-255-2266 Fax
<A HREF="mailto:info@bioterra.com">info@bioterra.com</A>
<A HREF="http://www.bioterra.com/index.htm">http://www.bioterra.com/index.htm</A>

First Fruits, LLC
RD 1, box 156
Triadelphia, WV  26059
888-489-0162

Mikko-Tek Labs
P.O. Box 2120 
Timmons, Ontario
Canada  P4N 7X8
705-268-3536

Plant Health Care
440 William Pitt Way
Pittsburg, PA  15238
800-421-9051
<A HREF="http://www.planthealthcare.com/">http://www.planthealthcare.com/</A>

Premier Enterprises Ltd
326 Main Street
Red Hill, PA  18076
800-424-2554
215-679-4119 Fax

Reforestation Technologies
Reforestation Technologies International
875 Airport Road, Unit R
Monterey, CA 93940
800-784-4769
<A HREF="http://www.reforest.com/">http://www.reforest.com/</A>

Tree of Life Nursery
P.O. Box 736
San Juan Capistrano, CA  92693
714-728-0685
<A HREF="http://www.prtcl.com/tol/products.htm">http://www.prtcl.com/tol/products.htm</A>

Tree Pro
3180 W. 250 North
West Lafayette, IN  47906
800-875-8071
<A HREF="http://www.nlci.com/treepro/">http://www.nlci.com/treepro/</A>

Elsewhere:

Missing Link in The Netherlands
<A HREF="http://www.treemail.nl/missinglink/">http://www.treemail.nl/missinglink/</A>

=======================================
2.  Mycorrhizae Web Sites
=======================================
Dr. Robert G. Linderman's Publications List
<A HREF="http://www.ars-grin.gov/ars/PacWest/Corvallis/hcrl/1lind.htm">http://www.ars-grin.gov/ars/PacWest/Corvallis/hcrl/1lind.htm</A>

Mycorrhizae in Sustainable Agriculture on-line article
<A HREF="http://www.ars-grin.gov/ars/PacWest/Corvallis/hcrl/lind15.htm">http://www.ars-grin.gov/ars/PacWest/Corvallis/hcrl/lind15.htm</A>
    Mycorrhizae in Sustainable Agriculture
    ASA Special Publication No. 54.  1991.
    Preface
    Why Focus on Mycorrhizae?
    Microbes in the Soil
    Mycorrhizae in the Soil
    References
    Edited by G. J. Bethlenfalvay and Robert G. Linderman

Mycorrhizae and Crop Productivity on-line article
<A HREF="http://www.ars-grin.gov/ars/PacWest/Corvallis/hcrl/cropprod.htm">http://www.ars-grin.gov/ars/PacWest/Corvallis/hcrl/cropprod.htm</A>
    Mycorrhizae in Sustainable Agriculture
    ASA Special Publication No. 54.  1991.
    Introduction 
    Mycorrhizae: Colonists of Plant and Soil 
    Agroecology: Mycorrhizae in Natural or Manmade Ecosystems 
    The VAM Plant and Cultural Effects Agrochemicals 
    The VAM Plant and Environmental Effects 
    Life Form and Function: The Legume as a Model in Agrosymbiosis 
    Conclusions 
    References: 
    by Gabor J. Bethlenfalvay

Forest Nursery Diagnostic Lab and Seedling Health 
Monitoring Program/Mycorrhizal Program
<A HREF="http://troy2.fsl.wvnet.edu/nursery/mycor.html">http://troy2.fsl.wvnet.edu/nursery/mycor.html</A>

Mycorrhizal Types -- Nice Summary on Missing Link's page 
<A HREF="http://www.treemail.nl/missinglink/mycorrhi.htm">http://www.treemail.nl/missinglink/mycorrhi.htm</A>

Vesicular-arbuscular (VA) mycorrhizae at Ehime University
<A HREF="http://www.edtech.ed.ehime-u.ac.jp/Vm/Vaminf.html">http://www.edtech.ed.ehime-u.ac.jp/Vm/Vaminf.html</A>

CARIVAM - The Caribbean Mycorrhizal Network
<A HREF="http://users.caribnet.net/~lec/">http://users.caribnet.net/~lec/</A>

Other Mycorrhizal/Mycological Web Sites on CARIVAM
<A HREF="http://users.caribnet.net/~lec/mycsites.html">http://users.caribnet.net/~lec/mycsites.html</A>

Index of /dj/lectures/mycorrhizas/ on Davey Jones' page:
<A HREF="http://lurch.bangor.ac.uk/dj/lectures/mycorrhizas/">http://lurch.bangor.ac.uk/dj/lectures/mycorrhizas/</A>
    High resolution on-line color pictures of cool looking fungi! 

====================================
Send updates to Steve Diver                          1-15-98
<A HREF="mailto:steved@ncatark.uark.edu">steved@ncatark.uark.edu</A> 
====================================


--
<A HREF="mailto:steved@ncatark.uark.edu">steved@ncatark.uark.edu</A>

</PRE>
<!--endarticle-->
    <HR>
    <P><UL>
        <!--threads-->
	<LI> Previous message: <A HREF="012104.html">Govt &quot;Organic&quot; Stds
</A></li>
	<LI> Next message: <A HREF="012101.html">OFMA and some other issues and opinions (fwd)
</A></li>
         <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> 
              <a href="date.html#12108">[ date ]</a>
              <a href="thread.html#12108">[ thread ]</a>
              <a href="subject.html#12108">[ subject ]</a>
              <a href="author.html#12108">[ author ]</a>
         </LI>
       </UL>
</body></html>

--------------94C1A934704C545760EBE711--



.

From - Sat Nov 16 13:43:26 2002
X-UIDL: 322732790
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AA9E83FF01CC; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 10:56:14 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AA96170A025A; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 10:56:06 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WQBJTCRY; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 10:55:47 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 11259 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sat, 16 Nov 2002 10:56:10 -0500
Received: from 152.163.225.105 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 10:56:10 -0500
Received: from Aquatfs@aol.com by imo-r09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id
          d.a.28869a08 (4328) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sat, 16 Nov
          2002 10:55:44 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="part1_a.28869a08.2b07c47f_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10641
Message-ID:  <a.28869a08.2b07c47f@aol.com>
Date:         Sat, 16 Nov 2002 10:55:43 EST
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Aquatfs@AOL.COM
Subject: HACCP "Rules"
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732790
Status: U

--part1_a.28869a08.2b07c47f_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I think that it is important to realize that HACCP, just like Organic, can be
a double edged sword. Buyers and consumers want to know that the food they
are buying is of a certain quality. The problem is in defining:

1. What is quality?
2. What can and can't producers do and use in order to achieve this quality?
3. Who decides on all of the definitions and standards?

Even though you may create and implement a HACCP program to ensure the
quality and safety of raw dairy products, you will have a difficult time
selling these products (in the US). The crux of the matter is that I would
trust a knowledgeable and ethical farmer to set his/her own standards and
methods of operation. But what about the not so enlightened farmer or the
unscrupulous farmer? This is where third party standards may be required.

One side note on whether food producers are allowed to convert poor quality
product into a "safe" product. HACCP is primarily focused on product safety
and not necessarily product quality. As long as you have an adequate kill
step that results in the mandated log reductions in pathogens, you are
considered to be producing a suitable product. Douglas, I respect your view
that safety and quality go hand in hand, but I think that you will find that
the majority of the food production system has separated these attributes.
The government imposed HACCP standards in response to food safety concerns.
Your suggestion to create a new acronym if HACCP does not address quality and
safety could face the same problems encountered in setting the "new organic"
standards. In the end. consumers will need to get closer to the producers of
their food and place their trust in the individual and not the piece of paper
or the certification.

Alan Ismond, P.Eng.
Aqua-Terra Consultants

--part1_a.28869a08.2b07c47f_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">I think that it is important to realize that HACCP, just like Organic, can be a double edged sword. Buyers and consumers want to know that the food they are buying is of a certain quality. The problem is in defining:<BR>
<BR>
1. What is quality?<BR>
2. What can and can't producers do and use in order to achieve this quality?<BR>
3. Who decides on all of the definitions and standards?<BR>
<BR>
Even though you may create and implement a HACCP program to ensure the quality and safety of raw dairy products, you will have a difficult time selling these products (in the US). The crux of the matter is that I would trust a knowledgeable and ethical farmer to set his/her own standards and methods of operation. But what about the not so enlightened farmer or the unscrupulous farmer? This is where third party standards may be required.<BR>
<BR>
One side note on whether food producers are allowed to convert poor quality product into a "safe" product. HACCP is primarily focused on product safety and not necessarily product quality. As long as you have an adequate kill step that results in the mandated log reductions in pathogens, you are considered to be producing a suitable product. Douglas, I respect your view that safety and quality go hand in hand, but I think that you will find that the majority of the food production system has separated these attributes. The government imposed HACCP standards in response to food safety concerns. Your suggestion to create a new acronym if HACCP does not address quality and safety could face the same problems encountered in setting the "new organic" standards.. In the end. consumers will need to get closer to the producers of their food and place their trust in the individual and not the piece of paper or the certification.<BR>
<BR>
Alan Ismond, P.Eng.<BR>
Aqua-Terra Consultants</FONT></HTML>

--part1_a.28869a08.2b07c47f_boundary--

.

From - Sat Nov 16 15:43:18 2002
X-UIDL: 322732801
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A9E1B2BF01B4; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 15:26:09 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A9DFD0C0180; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 15:26:07 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WQBJTFWG; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 15:25:51 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 11315 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sat, 16 Nov 2002 15:26:14 -0500
Received: from 68.6.19.242 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with TCP;
          Sat, 16 Nov 2002 15:26:14 -0500
Received: from sals ([68.6.84.38]) by fed1mtao03.cox.net (InterMail
          vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with ESMTP id
          <20021116202551.QRHC2201.fed1mtao03.cox.net@sals> for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 15:25:51 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C28D6B.0A913220"
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106
Importance: Normal
Message-ID:  <000b01c28dae$18a3a940$26540644@sd.cox.net>
Date:         Sat, 16 Nov 2002 12:23:59 -0800
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         sals <sals3@COX.NET>
Subject: Re: HACCP "Rules"
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <a.28869a08.2b07c47f@aol.com>
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732801
Status: U

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C28D6B.0A913220
Content-Type: text/plain;
        charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

IMHO as a grower and eater of organic food.  If in doubt I leave it out.
that goes for anything they say don't pick for 90 to 120 days or it
might kill u or make u sick.  why would I want to spray something on the
food I grow and eat that if u pick it before the 90 days u get real
sick.  come-on now this is getting to sound more like conventional
growing every day.  when I started growing organic and eating organic I
did it because I was looking for safer food.  The USDA better keep
organic safe if nothing else.  I don't use any shit any more and I don't
use anything that says you have to wait so long before the food is safe
to eat.  what about the grower spraying the stuff can he get sick if he
is spraying something that takes 80 days to be safe.  if one USDA
organic grower grows food that makes folks sick all organic growers will
suffer ..  If folks can say organic is not safer than conventional food
because the USDA lets organic growers use stuff that will make u sick
then all organic growers will suffer.  .  now I use no shit still folks
say organic food is not safer because the organic stuff they use on the
plants is not safe.  well I don't use that stuff but still I have to
suffer because someone is bum raping all organic growers because the
USDA is letting organic growers use unsafe stuff.  If one grower made
folks sick with a USDA organic materials list approve product forget
about it it.     maybe to u folks that want to grow organic just for the
big bucks its ok but if u want to grow safer food for all that eat it
why take the chance with HACCP or whatever.  if in doubt leave it out.
how can u sleep because the USDA says leave it 120 days and it will be
safe.  they  say that about a lot of stuff. If the USDA lets stuff be
used in the USDA organic movement that is not safe I will run from the
word organic.  RUN  and so will all those that buy organic.  Keep
organic safe plus keep organic organic .  that is what the USDA should
be doing.  Most folks that buy organic feel it is safer no matter what
the USDA says so let us not betray their trust in organic food.
-----Original Message-----
From: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
[mailto:SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU] On Behalf Of Aquatfs@AOL.COM
Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 7:56 AM
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Subject: HACCP "Rules"



I think that it is important to realize that HACCP, just like Organic,
can be a double edged sword. Buyers and consumers want to know that the
food they are buying is of a certain quality. The problem is in
defining:

1. What is quality?
2. What can and can't producers do and use in order to achieve this
quality?
3. Who decides on all of the definitions and standards?

Even though you may create and implement a HACCP program to ensure the
quality and safety of raw dairy products, you will have a difficult time
selling these products (in the US). The crux of the matter is that I
would trust a knowledgeable and ethical farmer to set his/her own
standards and methods of operation. But what about the not so
enlightened farmer or the unscrupulous farmer? This is where third party
standards may be required.

One side note on whether food producers are allowed to convert poor
quality product into a "safe" product. HACCP is primarily focused on
product safety and not necessarily product quality. As long as you have
an adequate kill step that results in the mandated log reductions in
pathogens, you are considered to be producing a suitable product.
Douglas, I respect your view that safety and quality go hand in hand,
but I think that you will find that the majority of the food production
system has separated these attributes. The government imposed HACCP
standards in response to food safety concerns. Your suggestion to create
a new acronym if HACCP does not address quality and safety could face
the same problems encountered in setting the "new organic" standards. In
the end. consumers will need to get closer to the producers of their
food and place their trust in the individual and not the piece of paper
or the certification.

Alan Ismond, P.Eng.
Aqua-Terra Consultants


------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C28D6B.0A913220
Content-Type: text/html;
        charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<TITLE>Message</TITLE>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D420025219-16112002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D4>IMHO=20
as a grower and eater of organic food.&nbsp; If in doubt I leave it =
out.&nbsp;=20
that goes for anything they say don't pick for 90 to 120 days or it =
might kill u=20
or make u sick.&nbsp; why would I want to spray something on the food I =
grow and=20
eat that if u pick it before the 90 days u get real sick.&nbsp; come-on =
now this=20
is getting to sound more like conventional growing every day.&nbsp; when =
I=20
started growing organic and eating organic I did it because I was =
looking for=20
safer food.&nbsp; The USDA better keep organic safe if nothing =
else.&nbsp; I=20
don't use any shit any more and I don't use anything that says you have =
to wait=20
so long before the food is safe to eat.&nbsp; what about the grower =
spraying the=20
stuff can he get sick if he is spraying something that takes 80 days to =
be=20
safe.&nbsp; if one USDA organic grower grows food that makes folks sick =
all=20
organic growers will suffer ..&nbsp; If folks can say organic is not =
safer than=20
conventional food because the USDA lets organic growers use stuff that =
will make=20
u sick then all organic growers will suffer.&nbsp; .&nbsp; now I use no =
shit=20
still folks say organic food is not safer because the organic stuff they =
use on=20
the plants is not safe.&nbsp; well I don't use that stuff but still I =
have to=20
suffer because someone&nbsp;is bum raping&nbsp;all organic growers =
because the=20
USDA is letting organic growers use unsafe stuff.&nbsp; If one grower =
made folks=20
sick with a USDA organic materials list approve product forget about it=20
it.&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; maybe to u folks that want to grow organic just =
for the=20
big bucks its ok but if u want to grow safer food for all that eat it =
why take=20
the chance with HACCP or whatever.&nbsp; if in doubt leave it out.&nbsp; =
how can=20
u sleep because the USDA says leave it 120 days and it will be =
safe.&nbsp;=20
they&nbsp; say that about a lot of stuff.&nbsp;If the USDA lets stuff be =
used in=20
the USDA organic movement that is not safe I will run from the word=20
organic.&nbsp; RUN&nbsp; and so will all those that buy organic.&nbsp; =
Keep=20
organic safe plus keep organic organic .&nbsp; that is what the USDA =
should be=20
doing.&nbsp; Most folks that buy organic feel it is safer no matter what =
the=20
USDA says so let us not betray their trust in organic food. =
</FONT></SPAN>
<DIV></DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original =
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group=20
[mailto:SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU] <B>On Behalf Of=20
</B>Aquatfs@AOL.COM<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, November 16, 2002 7:56=20
AM<BR><B>To:</B> SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU<BR><B>Subject:</B> HACCP=20
"Rules"<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT =
face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D0=20
  face=3DArial size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">I think that it is =
important to realize=20
  that HACCP, just like Organic, can be a double edged sword. Buyers and =

  consumers want to know that the food they are buying is of a certain =
quality.=20
  The problem is in defining:<BR><BR>1. What is quality?<BR>2. What can =
and=20
  can't producers do and use in order to achieve this quality?<BR>3. Who =
decides=20
  on all of the definitions and standards?<BR><BR>Even though you may =
create and=20
  implement a HACCP program to ensure the quality and safety of raw =
dairy=20
  products, you will have a difficult time selling these products (in =
the US).=20
  The crux of the matter is that I would trust a knowledgeable and =
ethical=20
  farmer to set his/her own standards and methods of operation. But what =
about=20
  the not so enlightened farmer or the unscrupulous farmer? This is =
where third=20
  party standards may be required.<BR><BR>One side note on whether food=20
  producers are allowed to convert poor quality product into a "safe" =
product.=20
  HACCP is primarily focused on product safety and not necessarily =
product=20
  quality. As long as you have an adequate kill step that results in the =

  mandated log reductions in pathogens, you are considered to be =
producing a=20
  suitable product. Douglas, I respect your view that safety and quality =
go hand=20
  in hand, but I think that you will find that the majority of the food=20
  production system has separated these attributes. The government =
imposed HACCP=20
  standards in response to food safety concerns. Your suggestion to =
create a new=20
  acronym if HACCP does not address quality and safety could face the =
same=20
  problems encountered in setting the "new organic" standards. In the =
end.=20
  consumers will need to get closer to the producers of their food and =
place=20
  their trust in the individual and not the piece of paper or the=20
  certification.<BR><BR>Alan Ismond, P.Eng.<BR>Aqua-Terra =
Consultants</FONT>=20
  </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C28D6B.0A913220--

.

From - Sat Nov 16 17:06:16 2002
X-UIDL: 322732805
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A977E73301C4; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 16:32:39 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A974D5A0294; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 16:32:36 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WQBJTGVR; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 16:32:05 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 11342 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sat, 16 Nov 2002 16:32:28 -0500
Received: from 213.165.64.20 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 16:32:27 -0500
Received: (qmail 10899 invoked by uid 0); 16 Nov 2002 21:32:01 -0000
Received: from dup-200-64-240-197.prodigy.net.mx (HELO dir-gral)
          (200.64.240.197) by mail.gmx.net (mp012-rz3) with SMTP; 16 Nov 2002
          21:32:01 -0000
X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.61) Personal
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
References: <a.28869a08.2b07c47f@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID:  <1925498671.20021116153147@gmx.net>
Date:         Sat, 16 Nov 2002 15:31:47 -0600
Reply-To:     Douglas Hinds <cedecor@gmx.net>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Douglas Hinds <cedecor@GMX.NET>
Organization: CeDeCoR, A. C.
Subject: Re: HACCP "Rules"
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <a.28869a08.2b07c47f@aol.com>
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732805
Status: U

Hello Alan & other saneters following this thread,

In relation to the post Alan sent Saturday, November 16, 2002 about
HACCP "Rules":

AAC> I think that it is important to realize that HACCP, just like Organic, can be
AAC> a double edged sword. Buyers and consumers want to know that the food they
AAC> are buying is of a certain quality. The problem is in defining:

AAC> 1. What is quality?

AAC> 2. What can and can't producers do and use in order to achieve this quality?

AAC> 3. Who decides on all of the definitions and standards?

AAC> Even though you may create and implement a HACCP program to
AAC> ensure the quality and safety of raw dairy products, you will
AAC> have a difficult time selling these products (in the US).

It depends on the state. Some states permit the sale of Certified
Raw Milk for human consumption, some don't. While a state inspector
may drop by every week or two to inspect a milking operation that
pasteurizes their milk, in a Certified Raw Milk operation, a state
inspector will be there EVERY DAY. That's because the certification
means that the milk came from cows that have NO contagious disease
that's transmissible via milk and that the milking and milk was
handled in a hygienic way.

AAC> The crux of the matter is that I would trust a knowledgeable
AAC> and ethical farmer to set his/her own standards and methods of
AAC> operation. But what about the not so enlightened farmer or the
AAC> unscrupulous farmer? This is where third party standards may be
AAC> required.

Some of us are making our own decisions in relation to our own
production, while others of us are responsible for making rules that
others will follow.

AAC> One side note on whether food producers are allowed to convert
AAC> poor quality product into a "safe" product. HACCP is primarily
AAC> focused on product safety and not necessarily product quality.
AAC> As long as you have an adequate kill step that results in the
AAC> mandated log reductions in pathogens, you are considered to be
AAC> producing a suitable product.

Rather than suitable, a product that will not transmit infectious
disease. That is the responsibility of those responsible for public
health.

AAC> Douglas, I respect your view that safety and quality go hand in
AAC> hand,

It will in our system.

AAC> but I think that you will find that the majority of the
AAC> food production system has separated these attributes.

And that is precisely why we are here. That is the reason sanet
exists.

AAC> The government imposed HACCP standards in response to food
AAC> safety concerns. Your suggestion to create a new acronym if
AAC> HACCP does not address quality and safety could face the same
AAC> problems encountered in setting the "new organic" standards.

I suggest implementing HACCP or HACCP-like principles, without
letting ourselves be boxed into a system that fails to recognize our
own fundamental concerns, such as the example Wytze gave. I am in no
way convinced that all HACCP or HACCP-like systems necessarily fall
victim to the the failings of a less then enlightened design team. I
am not worried about the failings that somebody else's poorly
designed HACCP system foisted on those concerned with toxic
chemicals in their food,because we will not make that mistake -
period.

Also, I seriously doubt that we'll need to use a different acronym.
In any case, other systems (with other names) based on HACCP-like
principles have already been put in place: GAP (Good Agricultural
Practices) and MPE (the Model Plan of Excellence) are just two of
the HACCP-like systems put in place to insure food safety
(innocuity).

As far as I'm concerned, the main issue here is the fact that we
need to to be thinking about these issues. We are not stuck with
ANYBODIES ready-made system for the simple reason that TIME HASN'T
STOPPED.

AAC> In the end. consumers will need to get closer to the producers
AAC> of their food and place their trust in the individual and not
AAC> the piece of paper or the certification.

You are confusing two separate issues: It's not the label, it's the
process and the intelligence that went into designing it.

Just to get this back on track, I refer you to my answer to Wytze
(and remember that my suggestion was made in response to the
concerns raised by Chuck Benbrook). This what HACCP means to me:

  Let's just look at what HACCP stands for: Hazard (in this case,
  pathological microorganisms), Analysis (testing for them &/or
  taking steps designed to insure their absence) via Critical
  Control Points. I interpret that to mean that the entire operation
  is analyzed in order to determine:

  1).- At which points are the Hazards (the presence of pathological
       microorganisms [or toxic chemicals] in food), likely to
       present themselves and infiltrate the operation,;

  2).- What can be done to minimize that risk (the concept of hazard
       implies a risk - in this case the risk that a product will
       become contaminated by pathological microorganisms);

  3).- At what point and in what way can that risk be observed; and

  4).- At what point and in what way can that risk be minimized?

  I think the concept is valid and should be extended to other
  possible sources of contamination, even for organic food
  production...

  HACCP methodology represents an option I intend to look into
  further ...

I'll second the point you made about the need to begin at the
beginning and end at the end. By why split hairs in the middle?
(Habit)?

Douglas

.

From - Sat Nov 16 20:23:34 2002
X-UIDL: 322732818
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AD81CB5C01CC; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 20:14:41 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AD7F458B00D2; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 20:14:39 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WQBJTK4G; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 20:14:28 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 11429 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sat, 16 Nov 2002 20:14:51 -0500
Received: from 205.188.157.38 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 20:14:51 -0500
Received: from Aquatfs@aol.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id
          d.12a.1b249ff2 (3964) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sat, 16 Nov
          2002 20:14:22 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="part1_12a.1b249ff2.2b08476e_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10641
Message-ID:  <12a.1b249ff2.2b08476e@aol.com>
Date:         Sat, 16 Nov 2002 20:14:22 EST
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Aquatfs@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: SANET-MG Digest - 15 Nov 2002 to 16 Nov 2002 - Special issue
         (#2002-60)
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732818
Status: U

--part1_12a.1b249ff2.2b08476e_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 11/16/2002 4:12:45 PM Pacific Standard Time,
LISTSERV@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU writes:


> I'll second the point you made about the need to begin at the
> beginning and end at the end. By why split hairs in the middle?

Douglas, I don't mean to split hairs. However, I am concerned that HACCP has
sometimes been used to perpetuate poor quality food. I know that you intend
to use the concept wisely, but from a consumer point of view, it is difficult
to differentiate "good" HACCP from "bad" HACCP. One bone of contention in the
food industry is whether HACCP should be extended beyond the walls of the
plant. One interpretation of HACCP would involve minimizing the levels of
pathogens in the incoming raw materials. Another interpretation would be
based on having a kill step that can accommodate any level of pathogens in
the incoming raw materials. Theoretically, the pathogen levels in the
finished product could be the same. My question is: should consumers prefer
to eat food that was made from materials that were grown pathogen free, or
should they prefer food rendered "safe" through the use of pathogen reducing
technologies such as irradiation? Unless I am wrong, both plants would have
legitimate HACCP plans in place and produce pathogen levels acceptable for
commerce. I also believe that both plants would meet the criteria set forth
in your list of HACCP principles. Finally, the reason I am so picky about the
HACCP concept is that many food plants have legitimized their processing
methods by having a HACCP plan. While the concepts of HACCP are straight
forward, the implementation leaves room for error. The quality of the HACCP
plan is limited by the company's understanding of their process and their
ability to implement the plan. Again, I am not directing this at you and your
intentions. I am concerned that implementing HACCP in the organic food
industry will the same very positive and negative results as in the
mainstream food industry.

Alan Ismond, P.Eng.
Aqua-Terra Consultants

--part1_12a.1b249ff2.2b08476e_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">In a message dated 11/16/2002 4:12:45 PM Pacific Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I'll second the point you made about the need to begin at the<BR>
beginning and end at the end. By why split hairs in the middle?</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Douglas, I don't mean to split hairs. However, I am concerned that HACCP has sometimes been used to perpetuate poor quality food. I know that you intend to use the concept wisely, but from a consumer point of view, it is difficult to differentiate "good" HACCP from "bad" HACCP. One bone of contention in the food industry is whether HACCP should be extended beyond the walls of the plant. One interpretation of HACCP would involve minimizing the levels of pathogens in the incoming raw materials. Another interpretation would be based on having a kill step that can accommodate any level of pathogens in the incoming raw materials. Theoretically, the pathogen levels in the finished product could be the same. My question is: should consumers prefer to eat food that was made from materials that were grown pathogen free, or should they prefer food rendered "safe" through the use of pathogen reducing technologies such as irradiation? Unless I am wrong, both plants would have legitimate HACCP plans in place and produce pAlan Ismond, P.Eng.<BR>
Aqua-Terra Consultants </FONT></HTML>

--part1_12a.1b249ff2.2b08476e_boundary--

.

From - Sat Nov 16 22:09:26 2002
X-UIDL: 322732820
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A0438FE301D0; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 21:34:43 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A041474B00D2; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 21:34:41 -0500
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WQBJTLZG; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 21:33:59 -0500
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Sat Nov 16 21:34:41 2002 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 11441 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sat, 16 Nov 2002 21:34:18 -0500
Received: from 213.165.64.20 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 21:34:18 -0500
Received: (qmail 8776 invoked by uid 0); 17 Nov 2002 02:33:53 -0000
Received: from dup-200-64-189-211.prodigy.net.mx (HELO dir-gral)
          (200.64.189.211) by mail.gmx.net (mp017-rz3) with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002
          02:33:53 -0000
X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.61) Personal
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
References: <12a.1b249ff2.2b08476e@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID:  <18123609937.20021116203338@gmx.net>
Date:         Sat, 16 Nov 2002 20:33:38 -0600
Reply-To:     Douglas Hinds <cedecor@gmx.net>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Douglas Hinds <cedecor@GMX.NET>
Organization: CeDeCoR, A. C.
Subject: Re: SANET-MG Digest - 15 Nov 2002 to 16 Nov 2002 - Special        
         issue (#2002-60)
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <12a.1b249ff2.2b08476e@aol.com>
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732820
Status: U

Hello Alan other saneters following this thread,

You said:

AAC> ... I am concerned that HACCP has sometimes been used to
AAC> perpetuate poor quality food. I know that you intend to use the
AAC> concept wisely, but from a consumer point of view, it is
AAC> difficult to differentiate "good" HACCP from "bad" HACCP.

I wasn't planning on promoting the use of whatever HACCP-like system
is put in place and I doubt that many consumers know what it is. We
just want to be sure that our food isn't contaminated and need to
analyze and act methodically in order to take care of that.

AAC> One bone of contention in the food industry is whether HACCP
AAC> should be extended beyond the walls of the plant.

>From beginning to end.

AAC> One interpretation of HACCP would involve minimizing the levels of
AAC> pathogens in the incoming raw materials.

It should.

AAC> Another interpretation would be based on having a kill step
AAC> that can accommodate any level of pathogens in the incoming raw
AAC> materials.

Not adequate.

AAC> Theoretically, the pathogen levels in the finished product
AAC> could be the same.

Pathogen levels is only part of the story.

AAC> My question is: should consumers prefer to eat food that was
AAC> made from materials that were grown pathogen free, or should
AAC> they prefer food rendered "safe" through the use of pathogen
AAC> reducing technologies such as irradiation?

A rhetorical question. Part of the problem is the fact that not all
consumers are aware of these issues.

AAC> Unless I am wrong, both plants would have legitimate HACCP
AAC> plans in place and produce pathogen levels acceptable for
AAC> commerce.

But not directed to the same consumers.

AAC> I also believe that both plants would meet the criteria set forth
AAC> in your list of HACCP principles.

No, because first you need to know how and where the pathogens are
getting into the system.

AAC> Finally, the reason I am so picky about the HACCP concept is
AAC> that many food plants have legitimized their processing methods
AAC> by having a HACCP plan.

An unconscious, incomplete HACCP plan.

AAC> While the concepts of HACCP are straight forward, the
AAC> implementation leaves room for error.

To error is human. A good HACCP implementation would help minimize
that.

AAC> The quality of the HACCP plan is limited by the company's
AAC> understanding of their process and their ability to implement
AAC> the plan.

That's true of anything.

AAC> Again, I am not directing this at you and your
AAC> intentions. I am concerned that implementing HACCP in the
AAC> organic food industry will the same very positive and negative
AAC> results as in the mainstream food industry.

The organic food industry is not going to do this and OFPA doesn't
require it. However, it represents a valid way to resolve the issue
raised in relation to compost tea and the organic food industry's
Achilles heel.

Douglas

.

From - Sun Nov 17 06:05:28 2002
X-UIDL: 322732844
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A3F777B9003A; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 05:48:23 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A3F0519D00D2; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 05:48:19 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WQBJTPM0; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 05:48:08 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 11615 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sun, 17 Nov 2002 05:48:31 -0500
Received: from 213.55.2.205 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 05:48:31 -0500
Received: from default (unknown [210.23.208.210]) by mail.gn.apc.org (Postfix)
          with ESMTP id 1F6C414B5A8 for <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Sun, 17
          Nov 2002 10:48:05 +0000 (GMT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Content-description: Mail message body
Message-ID:  <3DD7E18F.15666.4C43C@localhost>
Date:         Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:35:59 +0800
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Roberto Verzola <rverzola@GN.APC.ORG>
Subject: GE contamination
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732844
Status: U

All the recent news on GE contamination will make it almost
mandatory in the future to test regularly for contamination. I
presume that the same companies who created the transgenes also
created (and patented) the tests for them. This means that they will
be earning royalties from all those test kits sold. The wider the
contamination (and the more permanent), the more money they'll
make. The more GMOs released, the more types of tests have to
be done. Even after the original GMO has been recalled, tests will
still have to be made, as long as occasional positives turn up. What
a scam...

Roberto Verzola
Philippines

.

From - Sun Nov 17 09:25:28 2002
X-UIDL: 322732848
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A3AE4A3C01EE; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 09:11:58 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A3AACC30190; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 09:11:54 -0500
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WQBJTR15; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 09:10:45 -0500
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Sun Nov 17 09:11:28 2002 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 11763 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sun, 17 Nov 2002 09:11:04 -0500
Received: from 152.163.225.99 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 09:11:04 -0500
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-r03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id
          d.142.2dbf47d (3699) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sun, 17 Nov
          2002 09:10:39 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="part1_142.2dbf47d.2b08fd5e_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows AU sub 10503
Message-ID:  <142.2dbf47d.2b08fd5e@aol.com>
Date:         Sun, 17 Nov 2002 09:10:38 EST
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: HACCP "Rules"
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732848
Status: U

--part1_142.2dbf47d.2b08fd5e_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Let's use some common sense in this discussion about encountering human
pathogens.

The simple solution is to wash your hands, face, etc.   Wash your food before
you eat it.

Most of us wash our hands and our bodies for the simple reason that each time
we go to the toilet, we get E. coli, and any other human pathogen in that
room, transferred to our surfaces.  Humans encounter pathogens all the time.


We deal with that bacterial load in two ways.  By washing them off our
surfaces with soap.  And, by letting competition with the "good guy" bacteria
and fungi  - that grow using the "good guy" bacterial and fungal foods
released with sweat or perspiration - kill the human pathogens.  The "bad
guys" don't survive on a healthy body surface.

Your body surface is aerobic and has competitive bacteria and fungi growing
on it.  Only when you are sick, and your body defenses not what they should
be, can the pathogens win the competition on your body surface.  Or if you
never wash, and certain areas of your body become anaerobic.  Thus the need
for cleanliness in a sick person's presence.

The simple solution for E. coli getting onto crop surfaces is to wash the
surfaces before consumption, or treat with heat adequate to kill the
pathogens.    The heat treatment is generally called cooking.

Please, let some common sense be part of this discussion.  There's a
difference in getting human pathogens on the surfaces of food plants that
might not be washed before being consumed (thus the 90 to 120 day rules), and
getting human pathogens on your surfaces, a hazard that occurs everyday from
a variety of sources.

Everytime you touch a door handle in a public building, or even in your
house, you are probably picking up an enormous load of human pathogens.  So
why not go ballistic about that?  Touching a door handle is much more
hazardous than the bacteria you might get on your body surfaces from spraying
a manure solution, or poorly made compost tea.

The simple solution is to wash your hands.  When applying manure, the simple
solution is to wash the pathogens off yourself and your food before you eat.
Simple, but effective.

Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
www.soilfoodweb.com

--part1_142.2dbf47d.2b08fd5e_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">Let's use some common sense in this discussion about encountering human pathogens.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
The simple solution is to wash your hands, face, etc.&nbsp;&nbsp; Wash your food before you eat it.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Most of us wash our hands and our bodies for the simple reason that each time we go to the toilet, we get E. coli, and any other human pathogen in that room, transferred to our surfaces.&nbsp; Humans encounter pathogens all the time.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
We deal with that bacterial load in two ways.&nbsp; By washing them off our surfaces with soap.&nbsp; And, by letting competition with the "good guy" bacteria and fungi&nbsp; - that grow using the "good guy" bacterial and fungal foods released with sweat or perspiration - kill the human pathogens.&nbsp; The "bad guys" don't survive on a healthy body surface.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Your body surface is aerobic and has competitive bacteria and fungi growing on it.&nbsp; Only when you are sick, and your body defenses not what they should be, can the pathogens win the competition on your body surface.&nbsp; Or if you never wash, and certain areas of your body become anaerobic.&nbsp; Thus the need for cleanliness in a sick person's presence.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
The simple solution for E. coli getting onto crop surfaces is to wash the surfaces before consumption, or treat with heat adequate to kill the pathogens.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The heat treatment is generally called cooking.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Please, let some common sense be part of this discussion.&nbsp; There's a difference in getting human pathogens on the surfaces of food plants that might not be washed before being consumed (thus the 90 to 120 day rules), and getting human pathogens on your surfaces, a hazard that occurs everyday from a variety of sources.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Everytime you touch a door handle in a public building, or even in your house, you are probably picking up an enormous load of human pathogens.&nbsp; So why not go ballistic about that?&nbsp; Touching a door handle is much more hazardous than the bacteria you might get on your body surfaces from spraying a manure solution, or poorly made compost tea.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
The simple solution is to wash your hands.&nbsp; When applying manure, the simple solution is to wash the pathogens off yourself and your food before you eat.&nbsp; Simple, but effective.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Elaine Ingham<BR>
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.<BR>
www.soilfoodweb.com</FONT></HTML>

--part1_142.2dbf47d.2b08fd5e_boundary--

.

From - Mon Nov 18 12:58:30 2002
X-UIDL: 322732893
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AB12B075003C; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 03:55:46 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AB0E280C0042; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 03:55:42 -0500
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WQBJT7D7; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 03:54:56 -0500
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Mon Nov 18 03:55:40 2002 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 11959 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 18 Nov 2002 03:55:16 -0500
Received: from 64.12.136.161 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 03:55:15 -0500
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-m06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id
          d.5b.317d350f (17228) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Mon, 18 Nov
          2002 03:54:49 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="part1_5b.317d350f.2b0a04d8_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows AU sub 10503
Message-ID:  <5b.317d350f.2b0a04d8@aol.com>
Date:         Mon, 18 Nov 2002 03:54:48 EST
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: HACCP "Rules"
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732893
Status: U

--part1_5b.317d350f.2b0a04d8_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Would you rather eat apples sprayed with some toxic chemical to prevent
disease, or sprayed with a compost tea to prevent that plant disease?    If
you forget to wash apples sprayed with the toxic chemical, what effect will
the toxic chemcial have on you?

Will compost tea or the toxic chemical have more detrimental effect on your
health, or your children's health, if you forget to wash the apple before you
eat it?

So, you don't spray your apples with toxic chemical because you have no
disease?  Then you aren't going to spray tea either, are you?  The tea is
applied where you need to apply, for a particular reason.  No disease, no
tea.  Eat away.

But of you have disease for which you apply toxic chemical or tea, wouldn't
it be wiser to wash the apple before eating it?   I really doubt you eat
pesticide-sprayed apples without washing them.

Bird manure contains pathogens.  If birds poop on fruit, you should wash it
before you eat it.  If you are downwind of a dairy manure pile, or a chicken
coop, or an anything containing high numbers of E. coli or other human
pathogens, you should wash your fruit before you eat it.   If there is a
potential source of pathogen, then take precautions.

How long after a bird poops on the fruit until the pathogens are likely gone?
 That's what the 90 to 120 day waiting period is about.  Given time, lots of
air, lots of competing organisms, the "bad bacteria" will be out-competed and
removed.

Addition of beneficial bacteria and fungi to an apple's surface might speed
the process of removing pathogens through competition and consumption.  That
would be some interesting research.  So, maybe applying good compost tea
would result in safer fruit, and less likelihood of contamination.

Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
www.soilfoodweb.com

--part1_5b.317d350f.2b0a04d8_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">Would you rather eat apples sprayed with some toxic chemical to prevent disease, or sprayed with a compost tea to prevent that plant disease?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If you forget to wash apples sprayed with the toxic chemical, what effect will the toxic chemcial have on you?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Will compost tea or the toxic chemical have more detrimental effect on your health, or your children's health, if you forget to wash the apple before you eat it?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
So, you don't spray your apples with toxic chemical because you have no disease?&nbsp; Then you aren't going to spray tea either, are you?&nbsp; The tea is applied where you need to apply, for a particular reason.&nbsp; No disease, no tea.&nbsp; Eat away.<BR>
<BR>
But of you have disease for which you apply toxic chemical or tea, wouldn't it be wiser to wash the apple before eating it?&nbsp;&nbsp; I really doubt you eat pesticide-sprayed apples without washing them. <BR>
<BR>
Bird manure contains pathogens.&nbsp; If birds poop on fruit, you should wash it before you eat it.&nbsp; If you are downwind of a dairy manure pile, or a chicken coop, or an anything containing high numbers of E. coli or other human pathogens, you should wash your fruit before you eat it.&nbsp;&nbsp; If there is a potential source of pathogen, then take precautions.<BR>
<BR>
How long after a bird poops on the fruit until the pathogens are likely gone?&nbsp; That's what the 90 to 120 day waiting period is about.&nbsp; Given time, lots of air, lots of competing organisms, the "bad bacteria" will be out-competed and removed.<BR>
<BR>
Addition of beneficial bacteria and fungi to an apple's surface might speed the process of removing pathogens through competition and consumption.&nbsp; That would be some interesting research.&nbsp; So, maybe applying good compost tea would result in safer fruit, and less likelihood of contamination.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Elaine Ingham<BR>
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.<BR>
www.soilfoodweb.com</FONT></HTML>

--part1_5b.317d350f.2b0a04d8_boundary--

.

From - Tue Nov 19 00:06:21 2002
X-UIDL: 322732920
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A4CD799600E6; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 17:08:13 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A4C93E48003E; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 17:08:09 -0500
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WQBJ4WC6; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 16:28:09 -0500
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Mon Nov 18 16:28:51 2002 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 12542 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 18 Nov 2002 16:28:25 -0500
Received: from 129.186.140.4 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 16:18:25 -0500
Received: from mailout-2.iastate.edu (mailout-2.iastate.edu [129.186.140.2]) by
          mailhub-2.iastate.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA11559 for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 15:17:58 -0600
Received: from ras-c5800-2-53-195.dialup.wisc.edu(128.104.53.195) by
          mailout-2.iastate.edu via csmap id 1816; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 15:08:44
          -0600 (CST)
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Sender: dmayerfe@dmayerfe.mail.iastate.edu
References: <200211170456.gAH4uqea026027@despam-2.iastate.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Message-ID:  <p04310105b9fece2d839f@[128.104.53.177]>
Date:         Mon, 18 Nov 2002 16:12:05 -0600
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Diane Mayerfeld <dmayerfe@IASTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: HACCP
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <200211170456.gAH4uqea026027@despam-2.iastate.edu>
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732920
Status: U

Hello Douglas and others writing about HACCP,

I agree that HACCP could be a beneficial tool and we should not
dismiss it because so far it seems to be co-opted by large scale
industrial food processors.  However, I would caution that extending
the HACCP process to the food production stage will not necessarily
solve that problem.  For example, I have repeatedly heard that HACCP
for pork production would preclude outdoor systems such as pasture or
hoophouse raised pigs because outside sources of infection cannot be
excluded.  Absurd though that may seem to the people on this list,
given the political influence of the confinement pork industry, I
think such rumors need to be taken seriously.  Similarly, it is not
inconceivable to me that HACCP could be (ab)used to prohibit the use
of compost tea, which is where this whole discussion started, I
believe.

Diane Mayerfeld

>
>Date:    Sat, 16 Nov 2002 20:33:38 -0600
>From:    Douglas Hinds <cedecor@GMX.NET>
>Subject: Re: SANET-MG Digest - 15 Nov 2002 to 16 Nov 2002 - Special
>issue (#2002-60)
>
>Hello Alan other saneters following this thread,
>
>You said:
>
>AAC> ... I am concerned that HACCP has sometimes been used to
>AAC> perpetuate poor quality food. I know that you intend to use the
>AAC> concept wisely, but from a consumer point of view, it is
>AAC> difficult to differentiate "good" HACCP from "bad" HACCP.
>
>I wasn't planning on promoting the use of whatever HACCP-like system
>is put in place and I doubt that many consumers know what it is. We
>just want to be sure that our food isn't contaminated and need to
>analyze and act methodically in order to take care of that.
>
>AAC> One bone of contention in the food industry is whether HACCP
>AAC> should be extended beyond the walls of the plant.
>
>From beginning to end.
>
>AAC> One interpretation of HACCP would involve minimizing the levels of
>AAC> pathogens in the incoming raw materials.
>
>It should.
>
>AAC> Another interpretation would be based on having a kill step
>AAC> that can accommodate any level of pathogens in the incoming raw
>AAC> materials.
>
>Not adequate.
>
>AAC> Theoretically, the pathogen levels in the finished product
>AAC> could be the same.
>
>Pathogen levels is only part of the story.
>
>AAC> My question is: should consumers prefer to eat food that was
>AAC> made from materials that were grown pathogen free, or should
>AAC> they prefer food rendered "safe" through the use of pathogen
>AAC> reducing technologies such as irradiation?
>
>A rhetorical question. Part of the problem is the fact that not all
>consumers are aware of these issues.
>
>AAC> Unless I am wrong, both plants would have legitimate HACCP
>AAC> plans in place and produce pathogen levels acceptable for
>AAC> commerce.
>
>But not directed to the same consumers.
>
>AAC> I also believe that both plants would meet the criteria set forth
>AAC> in your list of HACCP principles.
>
>No, because first you need to know how and where the pathogens are
>getting into the system.
>
>AAC> Finally, the reason I am so picky about the HACCP concept is
>AAC> that many food plants have legitimized their processing methods
>AAC> by having a HACCP plan.
>
>An unconscious, incomplete HACCP plan.
>
>AAC> While the concepts of HACCP are straight forward, the
>AAC> implementation leaves room for error.
>
>To error is human. A good HACCP implementation would help minimize
>that.
>
>AAC> The quality of the HACCP plan is limited by the company's
>AAC> understanding of their process and their ability to implement
>AAC> the plan.
>
>That's true of anything.
>
>AAC> Again, I am not directing this at you and your
>AAC> intentions. I am concerned that implementing HACCP in the
>AAC> organic food industry will the same very positive and negative
>AAC> results as in the mainstream food industry.
>
>The organic food industry is not going to do this and OFPA doesn't
>require it. However, it represents a valid way to resolve the issue
>raised in relation to compost tea and the organic food industry's
>Achilles heel.
>
>Douglas
>
>------------------------------
>
>End of SANET-MG Digest - 16 Nov 2002 (#2002-61)
>***********************************************

.

From - Tue Nov 19 00:06:23 2002
X-UIDL: 322732933
X-Mozilla-Status: 0010
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A4A26F6201B4; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 21:40:34 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A4A06BC0286; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 21:40:32 -0500
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WQBJ40CL; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 21:40:15 -0500
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Mon Nov 18 21:41:02 2002 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 12786 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 18 Nov 2002 21:40:36 -0500
Received: from 209.226.175.26 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 21:40:36 -0500
Received: from windows98 ([65.94.129.195]) by tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net
          (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with SMTP id
          <20021119024011.JWNR15547.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@windows98> for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 21:40:11 -0500
References:  <2.2.32.20021113152329.0072a8a8@mail.nidlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Message-ID:  <005a01c28f76$59ff1f40$6501a8c0@sympatico.ca>
Date:         Mon, 18 Nov 2002 20:14:20 -0500
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Frank Teuton <fteuton@SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: Compost Tea and Organics
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732933
Status: U

Dear Dr Benbrook:

I appreciate the tone of your post.

The problem as I see it, is that a task force on compost issues, including
compost tea, was brought together that did not include any of the advocates,
advisors, or practitioners of compost tea making, specifically Dr Ingham and
some of the firms she works with.

I don't pretend to understand the politics of who is in and who is out in
creating these groups, but I do know that when you exclude a group of
stakeholders from a process such as this, then issue a finding which
undermines their work directly, the result is not likely to be a satisfied
and happy bunch of campers.

Any future body formed about the issues of compost tea should certainly
include Dr Ingham or someone who can represent a similar viewpoint.
Furthermore, the group should at least attempt to perform a literature
review, and conduct a sampling of the various commercially produced
products, for both positive and negative aspects.

It should not be difficult to access the underlying research such a group
relies on for its recommendations. Every effort should be made to be open,
to receive and respond to comments, and to clearly state assumptions,
research needs, opinions of various task force members, and the basis of
recommendations and conclusions.

It should also attempt to put these things into clear and simple language so
that farmers and other growers as well as consumers understand what is
known, what is assumed, and what else needs to be done.

Clearly, no one out there has a total, thoroughgoing understanding of all
the details of microbial action in water, soil solution, phyllosphere,
rhizosphere and solid state environments such as drier soils and composting
and vermicomposting environments. Our best researchers, of which Elaine
Ingham is certainly one, admit that we are barely scratching the surface in
terms of knowing who all the actors are, and knowing exactly what each does.

But, as Russel Bulluck used to like to close his posts:

"The soil population is so complex that it manifestly cannot
be dealt with as a whole with any detail by any one person,
and at the same time it plays so important a part in the soil
economy that it must be studied. "
--Sir E. John Russell
The Micro-organisms of the Soil, 1923

Indeed in one of his pithier posts on a closely related topic, Russ lays out
the reality for us:

"Here's the good news and the bad news. . . The good news is that pathogenic
strains of enteric bacteria (such as the dreaded E. coli O157:H7) produce
toxins that require a large energy output, and as such, these organisms are
not normally good competitors in the soil environment (being used to the gut
of cows, the bugs in the soil no longer have a constant and rich nutrient
supply or constant and pleasant 37 degrees C temp). The bad news is that
some
enteric bacteria will likely be found in soil! We don't live in a sterile
environment, but luckily, most of the bacteria in soil (and our food for
that
matter) are not harmful.


Let me say this. . . the food that we eat (be it vegetable, mineral or
animal)
has bacteria on it or in it. That's right, our food has bacteria in it. . .
millions of bacteria. Our skin has bacteria on it, as well as fungi, mites,
some nematodes (likely as not), and other bugs that literally make your skin
crawl (does everyone feel a little itchy now?). Most bacteria and fungi are
not that bad. If they were bad, we'd not be here! "

http://www.sare.org/htdocs/hypermail/html-home/43-html/0129.html

I personally want organic food to be food grown in a living soil, with a
full and active foodweb. That means, yes indeed, there will be millions of
bacteria on it, of a large diversity, and fungi, and other stuff. That
living food is what we all evolved on; it is what we have eaten for
countless millennia.

People who want or need sterile food should either not buy organic food (or
conventional food, either, for that matter) or they should cook the heck out
of everything.

I think the big bugaboo on compost tea down at the NOSB is fear of 0157. I
think every time 0157 is raised as an issue, it should be pointed out that
the big breeders of this pathogen are the CAFOs, especially grainfed cattle
feedlots. It is true that such operations are sufficiently widespread that
0157 could be on everyone's farm, and that suitable precautions should be
taken; see for example:

http://www.cog.ca/efgsummer2000.htm#ecoli

But it is also true that if we really wanted to greatly reduce 0157 in the
environment, we would stop the practice of grainfeeding ruminants. All the
costs associated with this practice are now being borne by the larger
society, including consumers, and organic farmers who are largely not to
blame for it.

However, I think in this context it is quite interesting to expand Elaine's
suggestion, that a compost made from manure containing E. coli would
contain, after it matured to the point of  elimination of this pathogen, the
necessary antagonists to protect crops growing near a CAFO or near fields
where inadequately treated CAFO manures are spread from 0157 infection.

"Addition of beneficial bacteria and fungi to an apple's surface might speed
the process of removing pathogens through competition and consumption.  That
would be some interesting research.  So, maybe applying good compost tea
would result in safer fruit, and less likelihood of contamination."---Elaine
Ingham, letter to SANET, 18 November 2002

Of course, that would require that we had really good tests for 0157 that
could be applied to teas. Such tests seem to be coming online:

http://www.montana.edu/wwwpb/univ/ecoli.html

So, if the Compost Tea Task Force [I'm assuming that's what it will be
called] wants to get more respect, it needs to be open, inclusive, and
demonstrate strong scholarship as well as outreach and education abilities.
Surely the positive potential represented by compost teas deserves a more
thorough hearing, and the issues of quality control further inquiry?

Dr Benbrook, I note at Dr Brinton's site:

http://www.woodsend.org/articles.html?a_uid=1

"For a paper by Charles Benbrook regarding the necessity of this
committee-process, click here Commentary "

I am unable to get the site to open. Can you provide us with your paper
elsewhere, and did you really mean that *this* committee-process was
necessary, or that *a* committee-process was necessary?

Isn't a more inclusive committee-process likely to advance matters better?

Thanks in advance for any further light you can give on this,

Frank Teuton










----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Benbrook" <benbrook@HILLNET.COM>
To: <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 10:23 AM
Subject: [SANET-MG] Compost Tea and Organics


>         I have learned much from the ongoing dialogue re compost and
compost
> tea safety and thank the technical experts for taking the time to walk the
> non-microbiologists among us through the issues/science.  I agree there is
> much more to learn re how to assure compost safety and that the U.S., for
> certain, has underinvested in this promising technology.
>
>         Still, the unresolved scientific and food safety issues
surrounding
> compost, and especially compost tea, pose a major challenge for not just
the
> sustainable ag/organic community, but also for FDA/USDA and practising
soil
> microbiologists.  I appreciate the passion and knowledge Elaine brings to
> this issue, and her patience and clarity in many recent posts, but her
views
> are not universally shared among the relatively small group of scientists
> charged with the responsibility of advising the NOP/USDA re how to move
> forward with the regulation of compost tea applications under the NOP.  I
> have had a chance to discuss the recent work of the compost tea task force
> with some of its members and am concerned by the degree to which the work
of
> the task force has come under attack, from a variety of quarters.
>
>         We all know that some of the most strident enemies of organic
> agriculture have latched onto compost safety as an Achilles Heel of
organic
> farming and that they will misrepresent the views of scientists,
government
> agencies, the local bartender to make their point and raise concerns.  Of
> course they will also fully exploit any disagreements within the organic
> community, a process now under way.
>
>         The NOP/USDA, and the compost task force, have to be cautious and
> deliberate in moving ahead, and indeed their recent report and decisions
> could be regarded as consistent with the precautionary principle.  There
> must be a very firm foundation if/when NOP/USDA endorses/permits
> applications of compost tea under circumstances that might, even very
> occassionally, result in a heightened risk of E. coli contamination.
Anyone
> who believes that technology and processes now exist, or can readily be
> developed, that would assure food safety following applications of compost
> tea should take their case, and data, to the task force and other
technical
> advisory bodies. But as we muddle toward concensus, the conclusions of
these
> bodies must be accepted, even when some among us feel they are wrong.
> Constructive responses in the face of misguided technical advisory body
> conclusions is to assure that the committees in the future are composed of
> open-minded people lacking conflicts of interest; are given the background
> and data needed to understand the issues they have been asked to review;
and
> to package/present data and information before the committees in clear and
> compelling ways.
>
>         The way the organic community deals with potential compost food
> safety challenges will be among the decisive issues shaping consumer
> attitudes and interest in seeking out organic food.  I hope everyone with
> scientific/technical skills and experience on these issues will find a way
> to work cooperatively and together to assure that the pursuit of the
disease
> control and agronomic benefits of compost is carried out with a degree of
> patience, caution, and humility, recognizing that there is much we do not
> know and many lessons yet to be learned about the practical control and
> application of these technologies in the real world.
>
>         Chuck Benbrook
>

.

From - Tue Nov 19 00:06:23 2002
X-UIDL: 322732932
X-Mozilla-Status: 0010
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A32E5CE701AC; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 21:34:25 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A32F11B029A; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 21:34:23 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WQBJ49Z5; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 21:32:54 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 12770 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 18 Nov 2002 21:33:18 -0500
Received: from 213.165.65.60 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 21:33:18 -0500
Received: (qmail 6688 invoked by uid 0); 19 Nov 2002 02:32:52 -0000
Received: from dup-200-64-189-156.prodigy.net.mx (HELO dir-gral)
          (200.64.189.156) by mail.gmx.net (mp006-rz3) with SMTP; 19 Nov 2002
          02:32:52 -0000
X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.61) Personal
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
References: <1bf.14bebcdd.2b0a62a5@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID:  <119111983312.20021118203236@gmx.net>
Date:         Mon, 18 Nov 2002 20:32:36 -0600
Reply-To:     Douglas Hinds <cedecor@gmx.net>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Douglas Hinds <cedecor@GMX.NET>
Organization: CeDeCoR, A. C.
Subject: Re: Pathogens in the Environment
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <1bf.14bebcdd.2b0a62a5@aol.com>
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732932
Status: U

Hello Alan & other saneters following this thread,

In relation to your post of Monday, November 18, 2002 ion which you said:

AI> Once again it is not the pathogens that we should be focusing
AI> on, but the questionable quality of any material that supports
AI> pathogens. ...If the materials that I am using to produce
AI> fertilizers, soil amendments, or growth enhancers support the
AI> growth of pathogens, I am using the wrong materials.

Alan, don't forget about the process. Take milk, for example: aside
from drinking it fresh, you can use it to make any one of a large
variety of fresh and conservable cheeses, yoghurt, kefir or
buttermilk, while the same liquid can fuel the growth of putrefying
bacteria under different circumstances.

As I understand it, that is what Elaine is expressing, and that is
what Elaine is studying in order to explain how, why and when one thing
happens instead of another.

Just as HACCP can be misused (subjected to a shortsighted design
process) so can milk and compostable materials.

Douglas

.

From - Tue Nov 19 13:26:20 2002
X-UIDL: 322732952
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AE3A29B0074; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:08:58 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AE3751130042; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:08:55 -0500
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WQBJVT9Q; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:08:09 -0500
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Tue Nov 19 13:08:56 2002 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 13302 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:08:30 -0500
Received: from 216.136.175.165 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:08:29 -0500
Received: from [12.31.96.58] by web21207.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 19 Nov
          2002 10:08:05 PST
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID:  <20021119180805.82286.qmail@web21207.mail.yahoo.com>
Date:         Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:08:05 -0800
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Dale Wilson <nosliwelad@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Pathogens in the Environment
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <1bf.14bebcdd.2b0a62a5@aol.com>
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732952
Status: U

Alan,

> I am concerned by the seemingly cavalier attitude that it is O.K. to
> introduce pathogens into the food supply and the environment. I must
> disagree with Elaine that washing and cooking will fix the problem.
> Many foods are consumed raw and not cooked.

I think the risks being discussed (human pathogens in food from compost
tea application) are extremely low, so low that idealogy, models and
wild guesses replace facts.  It is not clear that there is a problem at
all.  The organic community should keep on eye on this but not worry
too much about it.

> Once again it is not the pathogens that we should be focusing on, but
> the questionable quality of any material that supports pathogens.
> I find it interesting that Elaine states that humans that are health
> compromised are more likely to support the growth of pathogens. Why
> does this same logic not apply to crops, animals, manure, etc. If the
> materials that I am using to produce fertilizers, soil amendments, or
> growth enhancers support the growth
> of pathogens, I am using the wrong materials.

I think you have an overly rosy view of nature.  Anyway, the organisms
being discussed are not *infecting* the crops or the compost, just
hitching a ride.

Dale

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com

.

From - Thu Nov 21 13:15:46 2002
X-UIDL: 322733050
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AF6B57A0128; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 13:01:15 -0500
Received: from n31.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.99] by smtp.intrex.net
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AF692012029E; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 13:01:13 -0500
X-eGroups-Return: sentto-7527208-1097-1037900880-lfl=intrex.net@returns.groups.yahoo.com
Received: from [66.218.66.96] by n31.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Nov 2002 17:48:01 -0000
X-Sender: jeff@gardener.com
X-Apparently-To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 21 Nov 2002 17:48:00 -0000
Received: (qmail 63371 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2002 17:47:59 -0000
Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216)
  by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Nov 2002 17:47:59 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO smtp1.us4.outblaze.com) (205.158.62.78)
  by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Nov 2002 17:47:59 -0000
Received: (qmail 23388 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2002 17:47:58 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO jeffu9jv0ylyde) (jeff:gardener.com?iname.com@66.58.144.238)
  by 205-158-62-78.outblaze.com with SMTP; 21 Nov 2002 17:47:58 -0000
Message-ID: <001b01c29186$61edba10$ee903a42@jeffu9jv0ylyde>
To: <compost_tea@yahoogroups.com>
References: <OE1638QpWb9oVWzSbuI00018484@hotmail.com>
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106
From: "Jeff Lowenfels" <jeff@gardener.com>
X-Yahoo-Profile: gardenerjeff
MIME-Version: 1.0
Mailing-List: list compost_tea@yahoogroups.com; contact compost_tea-owner@yahoogroups.com
Delivered-To: mailing list compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Precedence: bulk
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:compost_tea-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 08:49:46 -0900
Subject: [compost_tea] CT in The Washington Post
Reply-To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Declude-Sender: sentto-7527208-1097-1037900880-lfl=intrex.net@returns.groups.yahoo.com [66.218.66.99]
X-Note: Total weight is 2. NOABUSE
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
X-UIDL: 322733050
Status: U

 A Cuppa Made of Compost

 By Adrian Higgins
 In a Virginia field, 50 organic gardeners gather around Elaine Ingham for
what is likely to be the weirdest cooking demonstration they have ever seen.

  Ingham's dark, bubbling brew is not from the garden but rather for the
garden. Into a 35-gallon kettle of water she has thrown measured amounts of
dried seaweed and an inky liquid called humic acid.

  "We have got loads of good stuff going into the mix," she says, filling a
nylon sock with screened compost and earthworm castings. Soon, this "tea
bag" is submerged in the water and bombarded by bubbles produced by an air
pump.

  This is neither high cuisine nor dark sorcery, but the latest innovation
in the world of organic gardening and farming.

  Liquid fertilizers made from manures and compost have been around for
centuries. What's new are the bubbling technique and specific ingredients,
which cause the growth of beneficial microbes that displace and even go
after all the bad spores and germs that prey on and kill plants.

  Spray the tonic on the leaves, and the bad bugs have nowhere to land, say
advocates. Pour it on the soil, and you form a protective barrier for the
root zones.

  Enthusiasts say that when used repeatedly, the tonic revitalizes soil and
allows the cultivation of plants without the need for chemical fertilizers
and pesticides.

  Among the testimonials: roses that never get black spot; thick, green
turfgrass; ornamentals of amazing vigor and health -- all without the use of
environmentally harmful chemical fertilizers and pesticides. Organic farmers
are using the tea to repair strawberry fields rendered lifeless by toxic
fumigants. Growers of crops such as potatoes have seen greater yields using
no chemicals. Some are even spraying it from crop dusters, said Ingham, a
soil scientist and consultant to organic farmers. She heads a laboratory
named Soil Foodweb Inc., based in Corvallis, Ore. An early pioneer of the
technology, she is regarded as a leading light in organic gardening and
farming circles.

  Not everybody is convinced.

  "I have a lot of colleagues rather concerned about the hype," said Linda
Chalker-Scott, an associate professor at the Center for Urban Horticulture
at the University of Washington. "We are all waiting for the science behind
the claims."

  Ingham and other scientists who advocate the product say lab tests reveal
three basic beneficial aspects of compost tea: plant nutrients;
biostimulants such as enzymes and amino acids; and beneficial bacteria,
fungi and nematodes (wormlike animals) that suppress disease and may also
fight plant pests.

  Chalker-Scott said Ingham is "an extremely good soil scientist," but her
data have not yet been subjected to sufficient review by other scientists.
One of the problems, said Chalker-Scott, is that every batch of compost tea
seems to produce different results, making it difficult to conduct more
definitive studies that might isolate the merits of one microbe over
another.

 Another concern is that the brewer might inadvertently create a brew
containing E. coli bacteria. Ingham says this is a valid concern but only if
correct steps are not observed. Any compost containing animal manures should
be thoroughly composted at 130 degrees for 10 days.

 Even then, the gardener should make sure that the brew remains aerobic and,
in summer months, reduce the level of molasses to a teaspoon, she said.

 Alternatively, use compost not made with animal manures or use the
earthworm castings, she said. They are sold in bags at garden centers.

 If the scientists are squabbling, gardeners, farmers and manufacturers of
equipment and supplies are forging ahead.

  "When it comes to to things in organic farming, in general the farmers
tend to be quite a few years ahead of the scientists," said Steve Diver, an
agricultural specialist with Appropriate Technology Transfer for Rural
Areas, a nonprofit funded by the U.S. Department of Agriculture that
provides technical advice to small farmers.

  He said the compost teas have yielded remarkable results. When it was used
on a field of bell peppers succumbing to viral disease, usually a death
knell in the vegetable garden, it not only stopped the virus in its tracks
but also allowed infected plants to recover. "This is absolutely
mind-boggling that an organic approach was able to arrest a virus and get
the crop to grow out," he said.

  Diver said if you were to look at a leaf through a microscopic hand lens
you would see hairs so thick that they resemble a jungle. By coating all
those surfaces with compost tea, the good microbes provide a barrier to any
bad ones that want to feed on the plant. "There's no room for them, there's
no food for them, and they are knocked out of the loop," he said.

  Compost tea sprayed at the base of a plant feeds and invigorates a
critical part of the plant called the rhizosphere, he said.

 Gardeners prepared to make a trip to the pet store can make their own
brewing kit using aquarium equipment.

 Ready-made versions, some costing in excess of $1,000 and geared to
commercial customers, are also available. Some manufacturers are getting
into the homeowner market.

 SoilSoup makes a 6.5-gallon brewing kit and has started selling commercial
dispensers to garden centers, where customers can arrive with their own
containers and fill up for a fee. The stations are called SoilSoup Kitchens
(www.soilsoup.com).

  Another company, Keep It Simple Inc., makes a five-gallon kit for the home
gardener (www.simplici-tea.com).

  Ingham, on her Web site, lists and rates brewers (www.soilfoodweb.com). Go
to Research/Resources. Under Articles, see Compost Tea.

  Some machines are more efficient than others, and some don't grow
beneficial fungi, which she considers a key ingredient for disease fighting.

  Mary Robson, an extension agent in Renton, Wash., said that gardeners have
made non-bubbly compost teas for thousands of years for their nutrient
values alone. In the Pacific Northwest, where the brewed article has taken
off among gardeners, "we all want it to work," said Robson. "We don't know
exactly whether, or if, it does. At least, I don't."






To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
compost_tea-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 



.

From - Sat Nov 23 11:02:42 2002
X-UIDL: 322733160
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A3FE6420112; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 10:51:26 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A40D21F50024; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 10:51:41 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WQBJZ8J3; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 10:51:19 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 15955 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sat, 23 Nov 2002 10:51:42 -0500
Received: from 209.226.175.26 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 10:51:42 -0500
Received: from windows98 ([65.94.137.191]) by tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net
          (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with SMTP id
          <20021123155114.LPAK15182.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@windows98> for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 10:51:14 -0500
References:  <000501c29232$aa997900$26540644@sd.cox.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0059_01C292DC.51C1A1E0"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Message-ID:  <005d01c29309$83031040$6501a8c0@sympatico.ca>
Date:         Sat, 23 Nov 2002 10:37:27 -0500
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Frank Teuton <fteuton@SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: compost and compost tea for organic growers
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322733160
Status: U

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C292DC.51C1A1E0
Content-Type: text/plain;
        charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

MessageHi Sal,

Organic growers, and would be growers, and the organic movement, have a =
number of choices in front of them.

One would be to decertify any farm where any amount of any neochemical =
of any kind were found, for example. Result: no more organic farms, we =
are all carrying at least some amount of neochemicals, it is in the wind =
and rain, man...

The other choice would be to allow anything. That would make all farms =
organic, and render the word meaningless again.

The middle path, which is also available in varying degrees, is to =
exclude neochemical contamination as much as is reasonably feasible, and =
try to expand a pragmatic organic sector to allow more and more farmers =
to stop using chemicals and 'go organic'. That may not be pure as the =
driven snow (which is not as pure as it used to be) but it would be the =
way to go for the sake of the planet, microbial diversity, carbon =
sequestration and all the rest, eh?

Let's say we have a compost with 3 ppm of chlordane in it. (That's in =
the spectrum for what was found in thermophilic New Jersey composts, =
btw.) Now we send that compost off to someone like Phil Fredericks, who =
recomposts it to get rid of the chlordane. Now Phil's compost can be =
used on the yards where the chlordane still is in New Jersey, and help =
get rid of it. Perhaps if we made a compost tea out of this compost, =
aiming for fungal growth, we might be able to accomplish this kind of =
bioremediation with compost tea as well.

That's an example of a contaminated feedstock being properly composted =
and yielding a decontaminated, and decontaminating, compost.

OTOH, as far as I know nobody knows what to do to bioremediate =
clopyralid, that herbicide that is able to affect plant growth at levels =
as low as 1 ppb. Compost containing clopyralid should not be accepted =
for organic growing, and so far it has resisted being remediated.

GMOs offer similar complexity. Some GMO materials break down readily and =
do not appear in the finished compost, others do not, and are still =
present at the time the compost is supposed to be mature.

The rule forbids contamination, but what sort of enforcement and testing =
is required?

If we define organic too narrowly, transition will never occur. If too =
broadly, it becomes meaningless.

People who have a marked need for organic foods with as little a load of =
xenobiotic materials as possible will generally look for local growers =
whose land has never been sprayed. Compare that to someone working a =
piece of land carrying a substantial load of recalcitrant chemicals =
(chlordane, DDT, etc) that has just finished transition of three years. =
A chemically sensitive person may be able to tell the difference between =
crops from these two kinds of farms.

Sal, I have read Our Stolen Future and I know the dose is not always the =
poison. I know we have to be properly diligent about keeping chemicals =
out of our food, our soil, and ourselves.

I also know that we can't hold up the transition process for every and =
any molecule that could be present, any more than we can ask for =
detailed information on each and every microbe in a ton of compost.

So, what standards are you proposing? What levels of which chemicals =
would be low enough, in the finished compost, to be acceptable?

Don't set them at zero, though, because no one on the planet can meet =
that.

I sympathize with you for not being able to use material with one tenth =
of one per cent biocide, but that is 1000 ppm, right? Think finished =
compost is likely to have 1000 ppm of any biocide in it? If it did, it =
wouldn't be OMRI acceptable, I would think.

I agree that it is exasperating sometimes trying to be organic in a =
polluted world. And I agree we have to keep watching and demanding to =
know what the rules are, what the standards are.

But we can't be organic puritans. Not on this planet, not in this =
century, anyway.

Frank Teuton


  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: sals=20
  To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU=20
  Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 9:23 AM
  Subject: [SANET-MG] compost and compost tea for organic growers


  The OMIRI Annotation is what had me worried.  talking about what =
organic growers can use for compost and manure .   it said "Acceptable =
feedstock's include animal manure by-products of the processing of =
agricultural commodities ad source separated yard debris or clean green =
.  this is what worries.  I don't see how organic growers can use this =
stuff and still call themselves organic.  no only do you have to worry =
about ecoili ,mad cow,hoof and mouth and who know what else but also =
growth hormones, rat poison,fly bait , insecticides,pesticides, =
herbicides  GMOs and everything else organic growers are not supposed to =
use .  how can the USDA say by-products from non organic animal manure =
and by products and yard debris can be used on organic farms.  are =
organic farms the trash yard for the USDA .  does the USDA care about =
all the non organic stuff that comes in with this .  how can the farmer =
know or anyone for that matter what the inert ingredients are in this =
stuff?  I think the USDA is not doing a very good job of keeping organic =
organic if this shit is acceptable.  Help can someone explain this to =
me.  That's why I don't feel making a tea out of this and spraying this =
on the food is organic.  I mean CCOF told me I could not use a product =
on time that had 1 tenth of one percent of biocide in it and now they =
say this shit is acceptable.  its all big business now and its not about =
keeping organic organic.  the USDA is the fox watching the hen house.  =
also the USDA organic program is killing off small growers.  I don't =
know how long I can afford to be a organic farmer .  my inspection fees =
have tripled and now I hear  CCOF says new fee structure and small =
farmers that are all organic will pay 200 and increase from 110.  so the =
prices keep going up and up and we small growers can do nothing about =
it.  they are bleeding the turnips and sucking us dry.  more and more =
fees going up and up.  the small grower does not have a chance in Calf.  =
when they told us about this law they said your certification should not =
go up much but my inspection went up 300 percent and my certifier wants =
to double that cost.  there is no cheep way for the small grower making =
over 5000 to stay organic.  big government is putting the small grower =
out of business.  .  What a rip off.  CCOF says they help small farmers =
and get all these donations and at the same time they are voting to =
raise prices and put small growers out of business.  they want the big =
growers that pay the big bucks not the small grower  anymore. it is  the =
old get big or get out that is what  the USDA has been doing to small =
growers for years.  they seen the small growers making it in the organic =
business and they are setting up to get rid of the small growers. =
Organic grower get big or get out.  They framed their evil and call it =
law and take our farms away from us and kill off our way of life.  .  it =
is government killing off the small organic farmer and using organic =
farms as a way to get rid of contaminated waste as the same time.  how =
can u get safe organic out of their contaminated waste.  trash in trash =
out. =20


  check out an organic growers homepage=20
  http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html



------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C292DC.51C1A1E0
Content-Type: text/html;
        charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Message</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Hi Sal,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Organic growers, and would be growers, and the =
organic=20
movement, have a number of choices in front of them.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>One would be to decertify any farm where any amount =
of any=20
neochemical of any kind were found, for example. Result: no more organic =
farms,=20
we are all carrying at least some amount of neochemicals, it is in the =
wind and=20
rain, man...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>The other choice would be to allow anything. That =
would make=20
all farms organic, and render the word meaningless again.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>The middle path, which is also available in varying =
degrees,=20
is to exclude neochemical contamination as much as is reasonably =
feasible, and=20
try to expand a pragmatic organic sector to allow more and more farmers =
to stop=20
using chemicals and 'go organic'. That may not be pure as the driven =
snow (which=20
is not as pure as it used to be) but it would be the way to go for the =
sake of=20
the planet, microbial diversity, carbon sequestration and all the rest,=20
eh?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Let's say we have a compost with 3 ppm of chlordane =
in it.=20
(That's in the spectrum for what was found in thermophilic New Jersey =
composts,=20
btw.) Now we send that compost off to someone like Phil Fredericks, who=20
recomposts it to get rid of the chlordane. Now Phil's compost can be =
used on the=20
yards where the chlordane still is in New Jersey, and help get rid of =
it.=20
Perhaps if we made a compost tea out of this compost, aiming for fungal =
growth,=20
we might be able to accomplish this kind of bioremediation with compost =
tea as=20
well.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>That's an example of a contaminated feedstock being =
properly=20
composted and yielding a decontaminated, and decontaminating,=20
compost.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>OTOH, as far as I know nobody knows what to do to =
bioremediate=20
clopyralid, that herbicide that is able to affect plant growth at levels =
as low=20
as 1 ppb. Compost containing clopyralid should not be accepted for =
organic=20
growing, and so far it has resisted being remediated.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>GMOs offer similar complexity. Some GMO materials =
break down=20
readily and do not appear in the finished compost, others do not, and =
are still=20
present at the time the compost is supposed to be mature.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>The rule forbids contamination, but what sort of =
enforcement=20
and testing is required?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>If we define organic too narrowly, transition will =
never=20
occur. If too broadly, it becomes meaningless.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>People who have a marked need for organic foods with =
as little=20
a load of xenobiotic materials as possible will generally look for local =
growers=20
whose land has never been sprayed. Compare that to someone working a =
piece of=20
land carrying a substantial load of recalcitrant chemicals (chlordane, =
DDT, etc)=20
that has just finished transition of three years. A chemically sensitive =
person=20
may be able to tell the difference between crops from these two kinds of =

farms.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Sal, I have read Our Stolen Future and I know the =
dose is not=20
always the poison. I know we have to be properly diligent about keeping=20
chemicals out of our food, our soil, and ourselves.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I also know that we can't hold up the transition =
process for=20
every and any molecule that could be present, any more than we can ask =
for=20
detailed information on each and every microbe in a ton of =
compost.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>So, what standards are you proposing? What levels of =
which=20
chemicals would be low enough, in&nbsp;the finished compost, to be=20
acceptable?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Don't set them at zero, though, because no one on =
the planet=20
can meet that.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I sympathize with you for not being able to use =
material with=20
one tenth of one per cent biocide, but that is 1000 ppm, right? Think =
finished=20
compost is likely to have 1000 ppm of any biocide in it? If it did, it =
wouldn't=20
be OMRI acceptable, I would think.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I agree that it is exasperating sometimes trying to =
be organic=20
in a polluted world. And I agree we have to keep watching and demanding =
to know=20
what the rules are, what the standards are.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>But we can't be organic puritans. Not on this =
planet, not in=20
this century, anyway.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Frank Teuton</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dsals3@COX.NET href=3D"mailto:sals3@COX.NET">sals</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3DSANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU">SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU</=
A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, November 22, 2002 =
9:23=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [SANET-MG] compost and =
compost=20
  tea for organic growers</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D4><SPAN class=3D250044613-22112002>The =
OMIRI=20
  Annotation is what had me worried.&nbsp; talking about what organic =
growers=20
  can use for compost and manure . &nbsp; it said "Acceptable =
feedstock's=20
  include animal manure by-products of the processing of agricultural=20
  commodities ad source separated yard debris or clean green .&nbsp; =
this is=20
  what worries.&nbsp; I don't see how organic growers can use this stuff =
and=20
  still call themselves organic.&nbsp; no only do you have to worry =
about ecoili=20
  ,mad cow,hoof and mouth and who know what else but also growth =
hormones, rat=20
  poison,fly bait , insecticides,pesticides, herbicides&nbsp; GMOs and=20
  everything else organic growers are not supposed to use .&nbsp; how =
can the=20
  USDA say by-products from non organic animal manure and by products =
and yard=20
  debris can be used on organic farms.&nbsp; are organic farms the trash =
yard=20
  for the USDA .&nbsp; does the USDA care about all the non organic =
stuff that=20
  comes in with this .&nbsp; how can the farmer know or anyone for that =
matter=20
  what the inert ingredients are in this stuff?&nbsp; I think the USDA =
is not=20
  doing a very good job of keeping organic organic if this shit is=20
  acceptable.&nbsp; Help can someone explain this to me.&nbsp; That's =
why I=20
  don't feel making a tea out of this and spraying this on the food is=20
  organic.&nbsp; I mean CCOF told me I could not use a product on time =
that had=20
  1 tenth of one percent of biocide in it and now they say this shit is=20
  acceptable.&nbsp; its all big business now and its not about keeping =
organic=20
  organic.&nbsp; the USDA is the fox watching the hen house.&nbsp; also =
the USDA=20
  organic program is killing off small growers.&nbsp; I don't know how =
long I=20
  can afford to be a organic farmer .&nbsp; my inspection fees have =
tripled and=20
  now I hear&nbsp; CCOF says new fee structure and small farmers that =
are all=20
  organic will pay 200 and increase from 110.&nbsp; so the prices keep =
going up=20
  and up and we small growers can do nothing about it.&nbsp; they are =
bleeding=20
  the turnips and sucking us dry.&nbsp; more and more fees going up and=20
  up.&nbsp; the small grower does not have a chance in Calf.&nbsp; when =
they=20
  told us about this law they said your certification should not go up =
much but=20
  my inspection went up 300 percent and my certifier wants to double =
that=20
  cost.&nbsp; there is no cheep way for the small grower making over =
5000 to=20
  stay organic.&nbsp; big government is putting the small grower out of=20
  business.&nbsp; .&nbsp; What a rip off.&nbsp; CCOF says they help =
small=20
  farmers and get all these donations and at the same time they are =
voting to=20
  raise prices and put small growers out of business.&nbsp; they want =
the big=20
  growers that pay the big bucks not the small grower&nbsp; anymore. it =
is=20
  &nbsp;the old get big or get out that is what &nbsp;the USDA has been =
doing to=20
  small growers for years.&nbsp; they seen the small growers making it =
in the=20
  organic business and they are setting up to get rid of the small=20
  growers.&nbsp;Organic grower get big or get out.&nbsp; They framed =
their evil=20
  and call it law and take our farms away from us and kill off our way =
of=20
  life.&nbsp; .&nbsp; it is government killing off the small organic =
farmer and=20
  using organic farms as a way to get rid of contaminated waste as the =
same=20
  time.&nbsp; how can u get safe organic out of their contaminated =
waste.&nbsp;=20
  trash in trash out.&nbsp; </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D4><SPAN=20
  class=3D250044613-22112002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D4><SPAN=20
  class=3D250044613-22112002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D4><SPAN=20
  class=3D250044613-22112002></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D4><FONT =
face=3DArial>check out=20
  an organic growers homepage </FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV align=3Dleft>
  <P><A href=3D"http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html"><U><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D4>http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html</U></FONT></A></P><FONT=20
  size=3D4></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C292DC.51C1A1E0--

.

From - Sun Nov 24 12:02:15 2002
X-UIDL: 322733187
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id ACFA10B700F8; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 09:06:50 -0500
Received: from nt-web [128.227.242.140] by smtp.intrex.net
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AD0734CA0032; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 09:07:03 -0500
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Sun Nov 24 08:53:01 2002 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 16411 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sun, 24 Nov 2002 08:52:26 -0500
Received: from 152.163.225.100 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 08:52:26 -0500
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-r04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id
          d.192.112ddae0 (18403) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sun, 24 Nov
          2002 08:51:47 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="part1_192.112ddae0.2b123373_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows AU sub 10503
Message-ID:  <192.112ddae0.2b123373@aol.com>
Date:         Sun, 24 Nov 2002 08:51:47 EST
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Purity Of Organic Foods/Compost
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.140]
X-Note: Total weight is 4. HELOBOGUS
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322733187
Status: U

--part1_192.112ddae0.2b123373_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Luckily, when you take leaves contaminated with who-knows-what pesticide and
compost them, letting the microorganisms do their thing, the microbes chew up
the pesticides, turning them into carbon dioxide, water, more microbial
biomass and some waste materials that are then used by other microbes.

The important thing is to make sure you maximize the DIVERSITY of microbes in
your compost, so you are most likely to have the microbes needed to chew up
the pesticides.   You also need a diversity of food resources, that is, kinds
of organic matter, so you have the diversity of foods that the diverse set of
microbes need to do their jobs.

The more diverse, the more likely you will get decomposition of toxic
chemicals.  We're talking diversity of BOTH plant material and microbes here.
 And a couple more things are needed....

Typically you need some temperature in your compost pile so the microbes have
the energy to decompose the difficult chemical structures of pesticides.  All
those chlorines and bromines and benzene rings in most pesticides require
production of seriously high-energy-requiring enzymes to allow break-down of
the pesticide.

But that's the right amount of heat - not too much, not too little.  If you
see "compost" that has turned black, the composter fried the most important
critters, and the pesticides are probably still present.  Compost is supposed
to be dark brown, not black.  Nor do the pesticides generally decompose if
the compost turns anaerobic.  So, stinky, smelly compost is not compost.  If
it smells bad, it means something is not right.  Don't put it around your
plants.  Learn what is a bad odor, versus a soil smell.   You may need a
course in composting from someone who knows something about these smells and
what they mean.

So, you have to have water and air correct in your pile.  More "not-too-much,
not-too-little" factors.  We need air and water just right - the Goldilocks
principle.  Compost is not a simple linear system, multiple factors have to
be correct all at the same time.  Water influences the amount of air present.
 Too wet, and you go anaerobic.  Too dry, and the microbes are sound asleep.
Must get it just right.
-----
Heavy metals may be sequestered, or tied up in organic forms in compost, in
forms that all but the most destructive chemical analysis will not detect.
Heavy metals stay plant-not-available if you maintain the organic matter
level in your soil.  You lose organic matter in your soil most rapidly when
you plow or physically disturb soil.  Minimize tillage, and you minimize
organic matter loss.  Maintain organic matter, and heavy metals remain
immobile and not-plant-available.

Does that mean you should never till?  I said, minimize tillage.  Till to the
least extent possible.  Vern Cole and Bobby Brock have both shown this to be
the case, along with quite a number of researchers that followed on their
leads.  Minimize tillage.

Residues left in your field in the fall should be decomposed by the microbes,
not sliced and diced and plowed into the soil.  If your residues do not
"disappear", there's something wrong with the set of microbes in your soil,
and you need to fix them and get them working for you again.  If you till
residues into the soil, they may just produce plant-toxic compounds if they
decompose without enough air in compacted soil.

But back to pesticides in compost.  We have a recent addition to the
herbicide world that apparently does not decompose during the composting
process.  Chlopyralid is a serious problem, and this chemical should be
banned from ever being put on another ecosystem.  Nothing decomposes it, and
once you put it on your lawn, you will not be able to convert that lawn into
a vegetable garden or into broad leaf plant production.  I'm rooting for the
little critters, however, and hoping that somewhere, someone will find the
microbe that will decompose chlopyralid.  For more information on the topic,
please look at the City of Seattle's website, and the writings of David
McDonald from Seattle.  I recall that Steve Diver from ATTRA has put together
a good reference list on this topic as well.  Check www.ATTRA.org

To summarize then, to get the decomposition of toxic chemicals in your
compost, you have to have the right microbes, good food for them, correct
air/water mix and additional energy, such as heat, or passage through an
earthworm.  Then, you can feel pretty safe about the "purity" of your
compost.

One last point - In Europe, we almost invariably have to add the right set of
microbes to compost piles, because in most places, the plant material no
longer has the desired set of microbes on the plant material.  In the US, in
the major cities, the same problem occurs quite often.  The plant material
does not contain the necessary set of organisms that decompose pesticides.
An inoculum of beneficial microbes is needed.  Commercial composters find
that adding back a little of the last pile, or adding a commercially
available inoculum of microbes, is necessary.  Add organisms to make sure the
minimum diversity is present.   This says something that should be of concern
to everyone about the wide-spread presence, use and impact of pollutants in
the world.

At Soil Foodweb Inc, we will be offering assays to allow people to determine
whether they have the beneficial organisms in their soil, compost or compost
tea.  The ability to determine presence of beneficial organisms is not
available elsewhere.  Check our website for more information.

Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
www.soilfoodweb.com

--part1_192.112ddae0.2b123373_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">Luckily, when you take leaves contaminated with who-knows-what pesticide and compost them, letting the microorganisms do their thing, the microbes chew up the pesticides, turning them into carbon dioxide, water, more microbial biomass and some waste materials that are then used by other microbes.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
The important thing is to make sure you maximize the DIVERSITY of microbes in your compost, so you are most likely to have the microbes needed to chew up the pesticides.&nbsp;&nbsp; You also need a diversity of food resources, that is, kinds of organic matter, so you have the diversity of foods that the diverse set of microbes need to do their jobs.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
The more diverse, the more likely you will get decomposition of toxic chemicals.&nbsp; We're talking diversity of BOTH plant material and microbes here.&nbsp; And a couple more things are needed....<BR>
<BR>
Typically you need some temperature in your compost pile so the microbes have the energy to decompose the difficult chemical structures of pesticides.&nbsp; All those chlorines and bromines and benzene rings in most pesticides require production of seriously high-energy-requiring enzymes to allow break-down of the pesticide.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
But that's the right amount of heat - not too much, not too little.&nbsp; If you see "compost" that has turned black, the composter fried the most important critters, and the pesticides are probably still present.&nbsp; Compost is supposed to be dark brown, not black.&nbsp; Nor do the pesticides generally decompose if the compost turns anaerobic.&nbsp; So, stinky, smelly compost is not compost.&nbsp; If it smells bad, it means something is not right.&nbsp; Don't put it around your plants.&nbsp; Learn what is a bad odor, versus a soil smell.&nbsp;&nbsp; You may need a course in composting from someone who knows something about these smells and what they mean.<BR>
<BR>
So, you have to have water and air correct in your pile.&nbsp; More "not-too-much, not-too-little" factors.&nbsp; We need air and water just right - the Goldilocks principle.&nbsp; Compost is not a simple linear system, multiple factors have to be correct all at the same time.&nbsp; Water influences the amount of air present.&nbsp; Too wet, and you go anaerobic.&nbsp; Too dry, and the microbes are sound asleep. Must get it just right.&nbsp; <BR>
-----<BR>
Heavy metals may be sequestered, or tied up in organic forms in compost, in forms that all but the most destructive chemical analysis will not detect.&nbsp; Heavy metals stay plant-not-available if you maintain the organic matter level in your soil.&nbsp; You lose organic matter in your soil most rapidly when you plow or physically disturb soil.&nbsp; Minimize tillage, and you minimize organic matter loss.&nbsp; Maintain organic matter, and heavy metals remain immobile and not-plant-available. <BR>
<BR>
Does that mean you should never till?&nbsp; I said, minimize tillage.&nbsp; Till to the least extent possible.&nbsp; Vern Cole and Bobby Brock have both shown this to be the case, along with quite a number of researchers that followed on their leads.&nbsp; Minimize tillage.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Residues left in your field in the fall should be decomposed by the microbes, not sliced and diced and plowed into the soil.&nbsp; If your residues do not "disappear", there's something wrong with the set of microbes in your soil, and you need to fix them and get them working for you again.&nbsp; If you till residues into the soil, they may just produce plant-toxic compounds if they decompose without enough air in compacted soil.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
But back to pesticides in compost.&nbsp; We have a recent addition to the herbicide world that apparently does not decompose during the composting process.&nbsp; Chlopyralid is a serious problem, and this chemical should be banned from ever being put on another ecosystem.&nbsp; Nothing decomposes it, and once you put it on your lawn, you will not be able to convert that lawn into a vegetable garden or into broad leaf plant production.&nbsp; I'm rooting for the little critters, however, and hoping that somewhere, someone will find the microbe that will decompose chlopyralid.&nbsp; For more information on the topic, please look at the City of Seattle's website, and the writings of David McDonald from Seattle.&nbsp; I recall that Steve Diver from ATTRA has put together a good reference list on this topic as well.&nbsp; Check www.ATTRA.org<BR>
<BR>
To summarize then, to get the decomposition of toxic chemicals in your compost, you have to have the right microbes, good food for them, correct air/water mix and additional energy, such as heat, or passage through an earthworm.&nbsp; Then, you can feel pretty safe about the "purity" of your compost.<BR>
<BR>
One last point - In Europe, we almost invariably have to add the right set of microbes to compost piles, because in most places, the plant material no longer has the desired set of microbes on the plant material.&nbsp; In the US, in the major cities, the same problem occurs quite often.&nbsp; The plant material does not contain the necessary set of organisms that decompose pesticides.&nbsp; An inoculum of beneficial microbes is needed.&nbsp; Commercial composters find that adding back a little of the last pile, or adding a commercially available inoculum of microbes, is necessary.&nbsp; Add organisms to make sure the minimum diversity is present.&nbsp;&nbsp; This says something that should be of concern to everyone about the wide-spread presence, use and impact of pollutants in the world.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
At Soil Foodweb Inc, we will be offering assays to allow people to determine whether they have the beneficial organisms in their soil, compost or compost tea.&nbsp; The ability to determine presence of beneficial organisms is not available elsewhere.&nbsp; Check our website for more information.<BR>
<BR>
Elaine Ingham<BR>
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.<BR>
www.soilfoodweb.com</FONT></HTML>

--part1_192.112ddae0.2b123373_boundary--

.

From - Sun Nov 24 12:02:15 2002
X-UIDL: 322733187
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id ACFA10B700F8; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 09:06:50 -0500
Received: from nt-web [128.227.242.140] by smtp.intrex.net
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AD0734CA0032; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 09:07:03 -0500
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Sun Nov 24 08:53:01 2002 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 16411 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sun, 24 Nov 2002 08:52:26 -0500
Received: from 152.163.225.100 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 08:52:26 -0500
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-r04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id
          d.192.112ddae0 (18403) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sun, 24 Nov
          2002 08:51:47 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="part1_192.112ddae0.2b123373_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows AU sub 10503
Message-ID:  <192.112ddae0.2b123373@aol.com>
Date:         Sun, 24 Nov 2002 08:51:47 EST
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Purity Of Organic Foods/Compost
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.140]
X-Note: Total weight is 4. HELOBOGUS
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322733187
Status: U

--part1_192.112ddae0.2b123373_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Luckily, when you take leaves contaminated with who-knows-what pesticide and
compost them, letting the microorganisms do their thing, the microbes chew up
the pesticides, turning them into carbon dioxide, water, more microbial
biomass and some waste materials that are then used by other microbes.

The important thing is to make sure you maximize the DIVERSITY of microbes in
your compost, so you are most likely to have the microbes needed to chew up
the pesticides.   You also need a diversity of food resources, that is, kinds
of organic matter, so you have the diversity of foods that the diverse set of
microbes need to do their jobs.

The more diverse, the more likely you will get decomposition of toxic
chemicals.  We're talking diversity of BOTH plant material and microbes here.
 And a couple more things are needed....

Typically you need some temperature in your compost pile so the microbes have
the energy to decompose the difficult chemical structures of pesticides.  All
those chlorines and bromines and benzene rings in most pesticides require
production of seriously high-energy-requiring enzymes to allow break-down of
the pesticide.

But that's the right amount of heat - not too much, not too little.  If you
see "compost" that has turned black, the composter fried the most important
critters, and the pesticides are probably still present.  Compost is supposed
to be dark brown, not black.  Nor do the pesticides generally decompose if
the compost turns anaerobic.  So, stinky, smelly compost is not compost.  If
it smells bad, it means something is not right.  Don't put it around your
plants.  Learn what is a bad odor, versus a soil smell.   You may need a
course in composting from someone who knows something about these smells and
what they mean.

So, you have to have water and air correct in your pile.  More "not-too-much,
not-too-little" factors.  We need air and water just right - the Goldilocks
principle.  Compost is not a simple linear system, multiple factors have to
be correct all at the same time.  Water influences the amount of air present.
 Too wet, and you go anaerobic.  Too dry, and the microbes are sound asleep.
Must get it just right.
-----
Heavy metals may be sequestered, or tied up in organic forms in compost, in
forms that all but the most destructive chemical analysis will not detect.
Heavy metals stay plant-not-available if you maintain the organic matter
level in your soil.  You lose organic matter in your soil most rapidly when
you plow or physically disturb soil.  Minimize tillage, and you minimize
organic matter loss.  Maintain organic matter, and heavy metals remain
immobile and not-plant-available.

Does that mean you should never till?  I said, minimize tillage.  Till to the
least extent possible.  Vern Cole and Bobby Brock have both shown this to be
the case, along with quite a number of researchers that followed on their
leads.  Minimize tillage.

Residues left in your field in the fall should be decomposed by the microbes,
not sliced and diced and plowed into the soil.  If your residues do not
"disappear", there's something wrong with the set of microbes in your soil,
and you need to fix them and get them working for you again.  If you till
residues into the soil, they may just produce plant-toxic compounds if they
decompose without enough air in compacted soil.

But back to pesticides in compost.  We have a recent addition to the
herbicide world that apparently does not decompose during the composting
process.  Chlopyralid is a serious problem, and this chemical should be
banned from ever being put on another ecosystem.  Nothing decomposes it, and
once you put it on your lawn, you will not be able to convert that lawn into
a vegetable garden or into broad leaf plant production.  I'm rooting for the
little critters, however, and hoping that somewhere, someone will find the
microbe that will decompose chlopyralid.  For more information on the topic,
please look at the City of Seattle's website, and the writings of David
McDonald from Seattle.  I recall that Steve Diver from ATTRA has put together
a good reference list on this topic as well.  Check www.ATTRA.org

To summarize then, to get the decomposition of toxic chemicals in your
compost, you have to have the right microbes, good food for them, correct
air/water mix and additional energy, such as heat, or passage through an
earthworm.  Then, you can feel pretty safe about the "purity" of your
compost.

One last point - In Europe, we almost invariably have to add the right set of
microbes to compost piles, because in most places, the plant material no
longer has the desired set of microbes on the plant material.  In the US, in
the major cities, the same problem occurs quite often.  The plant material
does not contain the necessary set of organisms that decompose pesticides.
An inoculum of beneficial microbes is needed.  Commercial composters find
that adding back a little of the last pile, or adding a commercially
available inoculum of microbes, is necessary.  Add organisms to make sure the
minimum diversity is present.   This says something that should be of concern
to everyone about the wide-spread presence, use and impact of pollutants in
the world.

At Soil Foodweb Inc, we will be offering assays to allow people to determine
whether they have the beneficial organisms in their soil, compost or compost
tea.  The ability to determine presence of beneficial organisms is not
available elsewhere.  Check our website for more information.

Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
www.soilfoodweb.com

--part1_192.112ddae0.2b123373_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">Luckily, when you take leaves contaminated with who-knows-what pesticide and compost them, letting the microorganisms do their thing, the microbes chew up the pesticides, turning them into carbon dioxide, water, more microbial biomass and some waste materials that are then used by other microbes.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
The important thing is to make sure you maximize the DIVERSITY of microbes in your compost, so you are most likely to have the microbes needed to chew up the pesticides.&nbsp;&nbsp; You also need a diversity of food resources, that is, kinds of organic matter, so you have the diversity of foods that the diverse set of microbes need to do their jobs.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
The more diverse, the more likely you will get decomposition of toxic chemicals.&nbsp; We're talking diversity of BOTH plant material and microbes here.&nbsp; And a couple more things are needed....<BR>
<BR>
Typically you need some temperature in your compost pile so the microbes have the energy to decompose the difficult chemical structures of pesticides.&nbsp; All those chlorines and bromines and benzene rings in most pesticides require production of seriously high-energy-requiring enzymes to allow break-down of the pesticide.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
But that's the right amount of heat - not too much, not too little.&nbsp; If you see "compost" that has turned black, the composter fried the most important critters, and the pesticides are probably still present.&nbsp; Compost is supposed to be dark brown, not black.&nbsp; Nor do the pesticides generally decompose if the compost turns anaerobic.&nbsp; So, stinky, smelly compost is not compost.&nbsp; If it smells bad, it means something is not right.&nbsp; Don't put it around your plants.&nbsp; Learn what is a bad odor, versus a soil smell.&nbsp;&nbsp; You may need a course in composting from someone who knows something about these smells and what they mean.<BR>
<BR>
So, you have to have water and air correct in your pile.&nbsp; More "not-too-much, not-too-little" factors.&nbsp; We need air and water just right - the Goldilocks principle.&nbsp; Compost is not a simple linear system, multiple factors have to be correct all at the same time.&nbsp; Water influences the amount of air present.&nbsp; Too wet, and you go anaerobic.&nbsp; Too dry, and the microbes are sound asleep. Must get it just right.&nbsp; <BR>
-----<BR>
Heavy metals may be sequestered, or tied up in organic forms in compost, in forms that all but the most destructive chemical analysis will not detect.&nbsp; Heavy metals stay plant-not-available if you maintain the organic matter level in your soil.&nbsp; You lose organic matter in your soil most rapidly when you plow or physically disturb soil.&nbsp; Minimize tillage, and you minimize organic matter loss.&nbsp; Maintain organic matter, and heavy metals remain immobile and not-plant-available. <BR>
<BR>
Does that mean you should never till?&nbsp; I said, minimize tillage.&nbsp; Till to the least extent possible.&nbsp; Vern Cole and Bobby Brock have both shown this to be the case, along with quite a number of researchers that followed on their leads.&nbsp; Minimize tillage.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Residues left in your field in the fall should be decomposed by the microbes, not sliced and diced and plowed into the soil.&nbsp; If your residues do not "disappear", there's something wrong with the set of microbes in your soil, and you need to fix them and get them working for you again.&nbsp; If you till residues into the soil, they may just produce plant-toxic compounds if they decompose without enough air in compacted soil.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
But back to pesticides in compost.&nbsp; We have a recent addition to the herbicide world that apparently does not decompose during the composting process.&nbsp; Chlopyralid is a serious problem, and this chemical should be banned from ever being put on another ecosystem.&nbsp; Nothing decomposes it, and once you put it on your lawn, you will not be able to convert that lawn into a vegetable garden or into broad leaf plant production.&nbsp; I'm rooting for the little critters, however, and hoping that somewhere, someone will find the microbe that will decompose chlopyralid.&nbsp; For more information on the topic, please look at the City of Seattle's website, and the writings of David McDonald from Seattle.&nbsp; I recall that Steve Diver from ATTRA has put together a good reference list on this topic as well.&nbsp; Check www.ATTRA.org<BR>
<BR>
To summarize then, to get the decomposition of toxic chemicals in your compost, you have to have the right microbes, good food for them, correct air/water mix and additional energy, such as heat, or passage through an earthworm.&nbsp; Then, you can feel pretty safe about the "purity" of your compost.<BR>
<BR>
One last point - In Europe, we almost invariably have to add the right set of microbes to compost piles, because in most places, the plant material no longer has the desired set of microbes on the plant material.&nbsp; In the US, in the major cities, the same problem occurs quite often.&nbsp; The plant material does not contain the necessary set of organisms that decompose pesticides.&nbsp; An inoculum of beneficial microbes is needed.&nbsp; Commercial composters find that adding back a little of the last pile, or adding a commercially available inoculum of microbes, is necessary.&nbsp; Add organisms to make sure the minimum diversity is present.&nbsp;&nbsp; This says something that should be of concern to everyone about the wide-spread presence, use and impact of pollutants in the world.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
At Soil Foodweb Inc, we will be offering assays to allow people to determine whether they have the beneficial organisms in their soil, compost or compost tea.&nbsp; The ability to determine presence of beneficial organisms is not available elsewhere.&nbsp; Check our website for more information.<BR>
<BR>
Elaine Ingham<BR>
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.<BR>
www.soilfoodweb.com</FONT></HTML>

--part1_192.112ddae0.2b123373_boundary--

.

From - Mon Nov 25 10:16:38 2002
X-UIDL: 322733231
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AB0B1AA01A6; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 10:00:30 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AB094BA40030; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 10:00:28 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id XR01P3WW; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 10:00:22 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 0256 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 25 Nov 2002 10:00:49 -0500
Received: from 64.12.136.6 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with TCP;
          Mon, 25 Nov 2002 10:00:49 -0500
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-m03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id
          d.36.322ca58e (657) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Mon, 25 Nov
          2002 09:59:38 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="part1_36.322ca58e.2b1394da_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows AU sub 10503
Message-ID:  <36.322ca58e.2b1394da@aol.com>
Date:         Mon, 25 Nov 2002 09:59:38 EST
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Response to Reiten
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322733231
Status: U

--part1_36.322ca58e.2b1394da_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

About three weeks ago, Joel Reiten sent an e-mail defending the studies used
by the Compost Task Force to make their initial recommendation about compost
tea.

I e-mailed him back with my comments about what was incorrect in his
information.  He has not responded.

Mr. Reiten was at the Washington Tilth Producers conference in Yakima, WA on
Nov 8, where I presented information about the NOSB decision and E. coli in
compost tea.  He disagrees with the US Geological Survey that water cannot
hold more oxygen than the USGS says is the MAXIMUM amount of oxygen that
water can hold, given temperature and air pressure.

I'm pretty sure that USGS scientists know what they are talking about,
especially since the data are on their website, in a nice black and white
table.  According to  this USGS information, the oxygen data in the BBC Lab
study are not possible, given the temperature and elevation at which the
studies were performed.  This makes the BBC Lab study that suggested that E.
coli grew in aerobic conditions in the Growing Solutions machine highly
questionable.

At the meeting, Mr. Reiten then started screaming at me that I didn't know
what I was talking about.  I invited him to discuss his opinion with me after
the meeting, since it was not useful to the majority of the people in the
room to have to listen to a screaming person.

Mr. Reiten's response was to yell at me that my words proved that I wasn't
interested in open and free discussion.  Free and open discussion with
someone yelling and screaming at me?

I pointed out to him that I have been freely and openly discussing my data
and information since last April, when the Compost Task Force came out with
their first recommendation.  Something had to be done to show that the
studies used as the basis for the Compost Task Force's recommendation did not
apply to compost tea and that in fact, there was no evidence in the BBC Lab
study that the tea stayed aerobic through the entire brew cycle.

Anytime since last April, Mr. Reiten could have responded to my comments in
any forum he chose.  He could have presented written information from
whatever expert he wished, but instead he chose to attempt to intimidate me
in a public forum.

I suggested that his actions clearly showed that it was him, not me, that was
not interested in open and honest communication.

Another person at the meeting then asked to read something that they thought
indicated that E. coli grows aerobically.  He read a lab protocol about
thioglycollate broth (I think that was what he said, I might have mis-heard).
 When a broth like this is autoclaved, the gasses in the broth are driven
off, leaving the broth at extremely low dissolved oxygen levels, typically
lower than 1 to 2 mg oxygen per liter.  The broth has to be shaken in order
to introduce enough oxygen - between 4 to 6 mg oxygen per liter - so E. coli,
or other human pathogens, have adequate, but not too much, oxygen in order to
grow.

This broth also typically contains antibiotics, and thioglycollate, which
inhibit the growth of many organisms.  The person reading this protocol
thought that having to shake this broth and add oxygen back in order to grow
E. coli was an indication that E. coli grows aerobically.  Not the case.

The protocol merely supports what I have been saying.  In the lab, when we
want to enumerate E. coli, we set up conditions that let it grow.  But in the
real world, we use aerobic conditions, with all the consumers, inhibitors and
competitors to remove E. coli, and other human pathogens.  Thank goodness
these organisms cannot grow when out-competed, inhibited and consumed by
aerobic organisms, or the human race would have died from these diseases long
ago.

In the meeting, other questions were then asked.  The session ended and I
stayed in the room for nearly an hour, talking with a number of people.  Mr.
Reiten never came to speak with me, although he had ample opportunity.  In
fact, the person who asked about the thioglycollate stayed around with me,
hoping that Mr. Reiten would show up so we could have a talk.

SFI had a booth at the meeting, so Mr. Reiten knew where I was and could have
talked to me at any time over the next two days.  I saw Mr. Reiten several
times while I was working at the SFI booth.  He never came to speak with me,
and I never found him when I was free from the booth.

Mr. Reiten has never responded to my personal e-mail to him, to the two
e-mails I sent to SANET which showed where he was incorrect in his points
made in his e-mail to SANET, or to my request to speak together in a
non-confrontational manner after my presentation.

If I am incorrect in my understanding, then show data to correct any
misunderstanding.  There is no need to scream, no need to be confrontational.


Show me data.  I have discussed only data.  I have indicated that BBC Lab
should respond to questions about their study.  The study by Duffy et al. can
be dismissed as not applying to compost tea, because no one seals a compost
tea maker, which is what they did in their study.

The fact that Mr. Reiten has not presented data from his expert which he
spoke about in his e-mail to SANET, the one he said had proof that the water
in a Growing Solutions compost tea brewer is supersaturated at all times with
oxygen, suggests to me that his expert does not in fact exist.

Anytime that Mr. Reiten would like to make good on the proof that he said he
had, the rest of us would listen.  We have all waited for him to show that
data since he made that claim in his e-mail and at the Washington Tilth
Producers meeting in Yakima, WA.

Enough time has passed.  Show your expert and  your data, Mr. Reiten, or
apologize to the readers of this list, and to the people at the Washington
Tilth Producers meeting, for attempting to mis-lead all of us.

---------
Mr. Reiten's scene at the Washington Tilth Producers meeting occurred the
same day that the NOSB indicated that they did not accept the Compost Task
Force's recommendations about compost tea.  They did NOT institute either the
limitation on sugar, molasses or soluble carbon materials, or the rejection
of compost tea because of the danger of E. coli.

Clearly reason, not hysteria, prevailed.

In a previous post, I commented that properly-made compost should not contain
E. coli, and thus an across-the-board restriction on all compost tea (the
second Compost Task Force recommendation, but written by Wil Brinton) was not
justified.

OMRI has ruled that as long as the compost is certified organic (and is
therefore reasonably E. coli and human pathogen free), and all the materials
going into the compost tea are certified organic, then the compost tea is
certified organic.

That is essentially the recommendation that OMRI made to the NOSB before the
Compost Task Force made their recommendation.  I am glad to be able to
support OMRI in this, just as when I heard about their likely recommendation
over a year ago.

When rumors of a moratorium on compost tea were circulating last year, I knew
that the USDA was probably not involved in calling for a moratorium, because
the recommendation by OMRI to the USDA seemed sane and likely to prevail.

And then rumors of the BBC Lab study and the Albany CA, USDA lab study
started popping up.  Clearly someone was angling toward putting some regs on
compost tea.

Just after that, we came to an understanding with the people suggesting a mo
ratoriium.  The official ruling by the EPA is that if a compost tea seller
makes pesticidal claims for tea, then they have to do the testing to show
bio-pesticide action or be subject to legal action.  So, compost tea sellers,
make no pesticide claims for compost tea, or do the EPA testing.

I thought things were well-settled, the OMRI recommendation had gone forward
so the USDA was heading in the right direction, and then the mess with the
Compost Task Force blossomed and the poorly designed studies, the one by
Duffy, and the one by Bess, were presented at the Biocycle meeting in Ohio.
And regardless of whether Duffy et al had their friends review their
manuscript before presenting, it does not change the fact that neither the
Bess nor the Duffy papers were peer-reviewed.   Biocycle does not peer-review
the papers in their magazines, or in the proceedings of their meetings.

Ah well, we all know what happened from there, and it's water over the bridge
and all that.

Adoption of the OMRI position as official policy by each organic organization
might be reasonable, however.

I understand from the NOSB minutes that they are considering re-convening the
 Compost Task Force, and I have volunteered to be part of that Task Force
should it be reconvened.  However, re-convening the Compost Task Force at
this time may not be necessary, if the NOP adopts the OMRI recommendation.

SFI is now working on how one can be assured that compost tea is E. coli- and
human pathogen-free, EVEN IF a not-properly composted, E. coli containing
(and thus potentially human pathogen containing) compost is used.

One of the foremost requirements for having a compost or compost tea free of
human pathogens is having an adequate number of bacteria, FUNGI, and
PROTOZOA.  Nematodes if possible as well.  Proper temperature or passage
through an earthworm digestive system, and adequate moisture and oxygen are
also necessary.

Fungi grow just fine in true compost tea, unlike bacterial teas from machines
where the tea goes anaerobic, that do not extract fungi adequtely or whose
added food resources kill the fungi.  Thus it is a good idea to test compost
and tea for the presence of the necessary organisms.

And beware those machines where the manufacturers say that fungi do not grow
in tea.  There's good indication that if fungi aren't present and active,
then the tea went anaerobic and possibly grew E. coli, if E. coli was present
in the starting materials.

Is the reverse true, that if active fungi are present, that E. coli will not
be present?  No, tea can hover around the 5.5 to 6 ppm range, allowing E.
coli survival and maybe growth and at least some active fungi still be
present.  So, is there an AMOUNT of active fungi that is indicative?  I think
so, but we have to tie this down and make certain in case-after-case before
I'll publish that in the scientific literature!

Testing for the biomass of active fungi is the easiest way to determine
whether the proper set of orgnaisms is present.  If you have active fungi,
then most likely you have the bacteria and protozoa you need to suppress
disease organisms, retain nutrients and build soil structure to hold onto
water in soil better.

Plate counts CANNOT reveal the presence of active fungi in tea, or compost or
soil.  Plate counts do an excessively poor job of determining total fungal
biomass as well.  They generally miss at least 99%, and usually more, of the
fungal community.  And they certainly do not tell you active biomass.

At SFI, we're being reasonably successful at reducing E. coli in manure-based
compost that has not been adequately composted.  We also have reduced high E.
coli levels in compost to low, low levels in compost tea.  But, please be
aware that reasonably successful does not mean 100% of the time!

But the concern only has to be with manure-based compost.  Other composts
should not be contaminated with E. coli, and even if somehow they were,
proper treatment, such as aerating the compost properly for a few weeks, or
making aerated tea with the compost, will drop E. coli and other pathogens to
below detectable levels.  But manure-based materials are different and need
to be tested.

Materials like citric acid, garlic oil, orange oil, tannic acid, juice from
nettles (Biodynamic preps work!), and similar materials can reduce E. coli
and thus other human pathogens.  We need to keep working on the proper amount
of these materials to add so that pathogens are killed but the beneficial
organisms remain healthy.

But please note that in order to do acceptable assessment of E. coli, the lab
you send samples to for assessment needs to obtain the samples within 8 to 12
hours of when you removed the samples from the tea or compost.  Unless
samples can get to SFI within 8 to 12 hours, and we know in advance they are
coming, it would be much better for you to send samples to local microbiology
labs for E. coli assessment.  Check with your local water treatment plant for
where they send their E. coli samples for assessment.

Ask your compost supplier for E. coli data showing that their compost is E.
coli free.  If you are going to buy organically certified compost, you should
reasonably expect that they have documentation that they have done a good
job.  They should at least supply temperature and turning information for the
composting cycle.  If you don't know what the proper turning cycle is, please
e-mail us at SFI and we'll supply you that information.  Be forewarned, we'll
charge money for that information ($10; it can be faxed or mailed).  SFI is a
small business and we have to stay alive.

I'd be glad to talk with anyone about the tests done (and paid for) by SFI.
It's a shame for others to re-do what we have tested.  There is only one
exception to this statement that I'll talk with anyone; there is only one
person, and per his demand, his associates, with whom I will not communicate.


People who will not communicate calmly and openly and who cut communication
with others, retard and prevent advancement of the science of composting,
compost tea and sustainable agriculture.

Communication is key.  Much as some people don't want to acknowledge it,
we're all in this together, and the only way to forge ahead is to be honest
with each other.
Confrontation is not required, if the people involved are honest in their
desire to know and understand.

Please excuse me for the long post, but it didn't seem to work to split this
one up.

Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
www.soilfoodweb.com

--part1_36.322ca58e.2b1394da_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">About three weeks ago, Joel Reiten sent an e-mail defending the studies used by the Compost Task Force to make their initial recommendation about compost tea.<BR>
<BR>
I e-mailed him back with my comments about what was incorrect in his information.&nbsp; He has not responded.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Mr. Reiten was at the Washington Tilth Producers conference in Yakima, WA on Nov 8, where I presented information about the NOSB decision and E. coli in compost tea.&nbsp; He disagrees with the US Geological Survey that water cannot hold more oxygen than the USGS says is the MAXIMUM amount of oxygen that water can hold, given temperature and air pressure.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
I'm pretty sure that USGS scientists know what they are talking about, especially since the data are on their website, in a nice black and white table.&nbsp; According to&nbsp; this USGS information, the oxygen data in the BBC Lab study are not possible, given the temperature and elevation at which the studies were performed.&nbsp; This makes the BBC Lab study that suggested that E. coli grew in aerobic conditions in the Growing Solutions machine highly questionable.<BR>
<BR>
At the meeting, Mr. Reiten then started screaming at me that I didn't know what I was talking about.&nbsp; I invited him to discuss his opinion with me after the meeting, since it was not useful to the majority of the people in the room to have to listen to a screaming person.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Mr. Reiten's response was to yell at me that my words proved that I wasn't interested in open and free discussion.&nbsp; Free and open discussion with someone yelling and screaming at me?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
I pointed out to him that I have been freely and openly discussing my data and information since last April, when the Compost Task Force came out with their first recommendation.&nbsp; Something had to be done to show that the studies used as the basis for the Compost Task Force's recommendation did not apply to compost tea and that in fact, there was no evidence in the BBC Lab study that the tea stayed aerobic through the entire brew cycle.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Anytime since last April, Mr. Reiten could have responded to my comments in any forum he chose.&nbsp; He could have presented written information from whatever expert he wished, but instead he chose to attempt to intimidate me in a public forum.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
I suggested that his actions clearly showed that it was him, not me, that was not interested in open and honest communication.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Another person at the meeting then asked to read something that they thought indicated that E. coli grows aerobically.&nbsp; He read a lab protocol about thioglycollate broth (I think that was what he said, I might have mis-heard).&nbsp; When a broth like this is autoclaved, the gasses in the broth are driven off, leaving the broth at extremely low dissolved oxygen levels, typically lower than 1 to 2 mg oxygen per liter.&nbsp; The broth has to be shaken in order to introduce enough oxygen - between 4 to 6 mg oxygen per liter - so E. coli, or other human pathogens, have adequate, but not too much, oxygen in order to grow.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
This broth also typically contains antibiotics, and thioglycollate, which inhibit the growth of many organisms.&nbsp; The person reading this protocol thought that having to shake this broth and add oxygen back in order to grow E. coli was an indication that E. coli grows aerobically.&nbsp; Not the case.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
The protocol merely supports what I have been saying.&nbsp; In the lab, when we want to enumerate E. coli, we set up conditions that let it grow.&nbsp; But in the real world, we use aerobic conditions, with all the consumers, inhibitors and competitors to remove E. coli, and other human pathogens.&nbsp; Thank goodness these organisms cannot grow when out-competed, inhibited and consumed by aerobic organisms, or the human race would have died from these diseases long ago.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
In the meeting, other questions were then asked.&nbsp; The session ended and I stayed in the room for nearly an hour, talking with a number of people.&nbsp; Mr. Reiten never came to speak with me, although he had ample opportunity.&nbsp; In fact, the person who asked about the thioglycollate stayed around with me, hoping that Mr. Reiten would show up so we could have a talk.<BR>
<BR>
SFI had a booth at the meeting, so Mr. Reiten knew where I was and could have talked to me at any time over the next two days.&nbsp; I saw Mr. Reiten several times while I was working at the SFI booth.&nbsp; He never came to speak with me, and I never found him when I was free from the booth.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Mr. Reiten has never responded to my personal e-mail to him, to the two e-mails I sent to SANET which showed where he was incorrect in his points made in his e-mail to SANET, or to my request to speak together in a non-confrontational manner after my presentation.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
If I am incorrect in my understanding, then show data to correct any misunderstanding.&nbsp; There is no need to scream, no need to be confrontational.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Show me data.&nbsp; I have discussed only data.&nbsp; I have indicated that BBC Lab should respond to questions about their study.&nbsp; The study by Duffy et al. can be dismissed as not applying to compost tea, because no one seals a compost tea maker, which is what they did in their study.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
The fact that Mr. Reiten has not presented data from his expert which he spoke about in his e-mail to SANET, the one he said had proof that the water in a Growing Solutions compost tea brewer is supersaturated at all times with oxygen, suggests to me that his expert does not in fact exist.<BR>
<BR>
Anytime that Mr. Reiten would like to make good on the proof that he said he had, the rest of us would listen.&nbsp; We have all waited for him to show that data since he made that claim in his e-mail and at the Washington Tilth Producers meeting in Yakima, WA.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Enough time has passed.&nbsp; Show your expert and&nbsp; your data, Mr. Reiten, or apologize to the readers of this list, and to the people at the Washington Tilth Producers meeting, for attempting to mis-lead all of us.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
---------<BR>
Mr. Reiten's scene at the Washington Tilth Producers meeting occurred the same day that the NOSB indicated that they did not accept the Compost Task Force's recommendations about compost tea.&nbsp; They did NOT institute either the limitation on sugar, molasses or soluble carbon materials, or the rejection of compost tea because of the danger of E. coli.<BR>
<BR>
Clearly reason, not hysteria, prevailed.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
In a previous post, I commented that properly-made compost should not contain E. coli, and thus an across-the-board restriction on all compost tea (the second Compost Task Force recommendation, but written by Wil Brinton) was not justified.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
OMRI has ruled that as long as the compost is certified organic (and is therefore reasonably E. coli and human pathogen free), and all the materials going into the compost tea are certified organic, then the compost tea is certified organic.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
That is essentially the recommendation that OMRI made to the NOSB before the Compost Task Force made their recommendation.&nbsp; I am glad to be able to support OMRI in this, just as when I heard about their likely recommendation over a year ago.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
When rumors of a moratorium on compost tea were circulating last year, I knew that the USDA was probably not involved in calling for a moratorium, because the recommendation by OMRI to the USDA seemed sane and likely to prevail.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
And then rumors of the BBC Lab study and the Albany CA, USDA lab study started popping up.&nbsp; Clearly someone was angling toward putting some regs on compost tea.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Just after that, we came to an understanding with the people suggesting a moratoriium.&nbsp; The official ruling by the EPA is that if a compost tea seller makes pesticidal claims for tea, then they have to do the testing to show bio-pesticide action or be subject to legal action.&nbsp; So, compost tea sellers, make no pesticide claims for compost tea, or do the EPA testing.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
I thought things were well-settled, the OMRI recommendation had gone forward so the USDA was heading in the right direction, and then the mess with the Compost Task Force blossomed and the poorly designed studies, the one by Duffy, and the one by Bess, were presented at the Biocycle meeting in Ohio.&nbsp; And regardless of whether Duffy et al had their friends review their manuscript before presenting, it does not change the fact that neither the Bess nor the Duffy papers were peer-reviewed.&nbsp;&nbsp; Biocycle does not peer-review the papers in their magazines, or in the proceedings of their meetings.<BR>
<BR>
Ah well, we all know what happened from there, and it's water over the bridge and all that.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Adoption of the OMRI position as official policy by each organic organization might be reasonable, however.<BR>
<BR>
I understand from the NOSB minutes that they are considering re-convening the&nbsp; Compost Task Force, and I have volunteered to be part of that Task Force should it be reconvened.&nbsp; However, re-convening the Compost Task Force at this time may not be necessary, if the NOP adopts the OMRI recommendation.<BR>
<BR>
SFI is now working on how one can be assured that compost tea is E. coli- and human pathogen-free, EVEN IF a not-properly composted, E. coli containing (and thus potentially human pathogen containing) compost is used.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
One of the foremost requirements for having a compost or compost tea free of human pathogens is having an adequate number of bacteria, FUNGI, and PROTOZOA.&nbsp; Nematodes if possible as well.&nbsp; Proper temperature or passage through an earthworm digestive system, and adequate moisture and oxygen are also necessary.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Fungi grow just fine in true compost tea, unlike bacterial teas from machines where the tea goes anaerobic, that do not extract fungi adequtely or whose added food resources kill the fungi.&nbsp; Thus it is a good idea to test compost and tea for the presence of the necessary organisms.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
And beware those machines where the manufacturers say that fungi do not grow in tea.&nbsp; There's good indication that if fungi aren't present and active, then the tea went anaerobic and possibly grew E. coli, if E. coli was present in the starting materials.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Is the reverse true, that if active fungi are present, that E. coli will not be present?&nbsp; No, tea can hover around the 5.5 to 6 ppm range, allowing E. coli survival and maybe growth and at least some active fungi still be present.&nbsp; So, is there an AMOUNT of active fungi that is indicative?&nbsp; I think so, but we have to tie this down and make certain in case-after-case before I'll publish that in the scientific literature!<BR>
<BR>
Testing for the biomass of active fungi is the easiest way to determine whether the proper set of orgnaisms is present.&nbsp; If you have active fungi, then most likely you have the bacteria and protozoa you need to suppress disease organisms, retain nutrients and build soil structure to hold onto water in soil better.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Plate counts CANNOT reveal the presence of active fungi in tea, or compost or soil.&nbsp; Plate counts do an excessively poor job of determining total fungal biomass as well.&nbsp; They generally miss at least 99%, and usually more, of the fungal community.&nbsp; And they certainly do not tell you active biomass.<BR>
<BR>
At SFI, we're being reasonably successful at reducing E. coli in manure-based compost that has not been adequately composted.&nbsp; We also have reduced high E. coli levels in compost to low, low levels in compost tea.&nbsp; But, please be aware that reasonably successful does not mean 100% of the time!&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
But the concern only has to be with manure-based compost.&nbsp; Other composts should not be contaminated with E. coli, and even if somehow they were, proper treatment, such as aerating the compost properly for a few weeks, or making aerated tea with the compost, will drop E. coli and other pathogens to below detectable levels.&nbsp; But manure-based materials are different and need to be tested.<BR>
<BR>
Materials like citric acid, garlic oil, orange oil, tannic acid, juice from nettles (Biodynamic preps work!), and similar materials can reduce E. coli and thus other human pathogens.&nbsp; We need to keep working on the proper amount of these materials to add so that pathogens are killed but the beneficial organisms remain healthy.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
But please note that in order to do acceptable assessment of E. coli, the lab you send samples to for assessment needs to obtain the samples within 8 to 12 hours of when you removed the samples from the tea or compost.&nbsp; Unless samples can get to SFI within 8 to 12 hours, and we know in advance they are coming, it would be much better for you to send samples to local microbiology labs for E. coli assessment.&nbsp; Check with your local water treatment plant for where they send their E. coli samples for assessment.<BR>
<BR>
Ask your compost supplier for E. coli data showing that their compost is E. coli free.&nbsp; If you are going to buy organically certified compost, you should reasonably expect that they have documentation that they have done a good job.&nbsp; They should at least supply temperature and turning information for the composting cycle.&nbsp; If you don't know what the proper turning cycle is, please e-mail us at SFI and we'll supply you that information.&nbsp; Be forewarned, we'll charge money for that information ($10; it can be faxed or mailed).&nbsp; SFI is a small business and we have to stay alive.<BR>
<BR>
I'd be glad to talk with anyone about the tests done (and paid for) by SFI.&nbsp; It's a shame for others to re-do what we have tested.&nbsp; There is only one exception to this statement that I'll talk with anyone; there is only one person, and per his demand, his associates, with whom I will not communicate.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
People who will not communicate calmly and openly and who cut communication with others, retard and prevent advancement of the science of composting, compost tea and sustainable agriculture.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Communication is key.&nbsp; Much as some people don't want to acknowledge it, we're all in this together, and the only way to forge ahead is to be honest with each other.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
Confrontation is not required, if the people involved are honest in their desire to know and understand.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Please excuse me for the long post, but it didn't seem to work to split this one up.<BR>
<BR>
Elaine Ingham<BR>
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.<BR>
www.soilfoodweb.com</FONT></HTML>

--part1_36.322ca58e.2b1394da_boundary--

.

From - Mon Nov 25 13:26:38 2002
X-UIDL: 322733242
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A82225A0188; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:12:50 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A8203E50182; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:12:48 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id XR01PW73; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:12:36 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 0412 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:13:04 -0500
Received: from 209.226.175.53 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:13:04 -0500
Received: from windows98 ([65.94.137.191]) by tomts9-srv.bellnexxia.net
          (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with SMTP id
          <20021125181237.IMNH4359.tomts9-srv.bellnexxia.net@windows98> for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:12:37 -0500
References:  <20021125105640.40484.qmail@web21202.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Message-ID:  <002e01c294af$91ba79a0$6501a8c0@sympatico.ca>
Date:         Mon, 25 Nov 2002 11:08:06 -0500
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Frank Teuton <fteuton@SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: Purity Of Organic Foods
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322733242
Status: U

http://www.state.nj.us/dep/dshw/rrtp/compost/problem.htm

"Some pesticides also may be present, particularly in grass clippings, but
again the levels ordinarily are expected to be too low to pose any concern.
An unconfirmed 1991 study in Illinois found low levels of 19 pesticides in
composting yard wastes. The concentrations were so low that all except one
of the 44 samples met the levels allowed in raw agricultural commodities for
the 13 detected pesticides for which such levels have been established. (No
levels are set for the other 6, which were mostly banned pesticides no
longer in use.) In samples from 6 sites in New Jersey only one pesticide,
chlordane, was detected. Since chlordane is no longer used, and since it is
not taken up by plants, it is believed that this came from the residential
soil mixed with the yard waste during raking or bagging.

Based on these considerations and findings, yard waste compost is considered
safe for residential use without specific testing. The only exception to
this would be for composts containing materials from golf courses, where
more intensive use of more toxic and persistent compounds is common. Such
materials may require testing for specific metals and pesticides before
general use."

A more careful approach is now warranted due to the clopyralid problem.
(Moment of silence while we all thank Dow Chemical.)

http://csanr.wsu.edu/programs/compost/cc13.pdf

.....
"Researchers F.C. Michel and C.A. Reddy at
Michigan State University studied the fate of three
commonly used lawn chemicals during composting:
diazinon, 2,4-D, and pendimethalin (Prowl). A
laboratory scale compost system was used for leaves
and grass (in a 2:1 ratio) amended with radiolabeled
pesticides at levels typical for incoming feedstocks at
a commercial compost operation. Evolution of
labeled CO2 was a primary indicator of pesticide
breakdown.

About 50% of the 2,4-D was mineralized to CO2,
compared to only 10-13% of the other two pesticides.
Leaching and volatile losses were low. The
researchers then searched for the fate of the
remaining carbon. Much of the labeled carbon from
all three pesticides was associated with the humic
materials or was unextractable from the final
composts. These pesticide residuals appeared
chemically quite different from the parent compounds
and less available to plants and animals. Thus, while
complete mineralization did not occur, decomposition
appeared to eliminate the pesticides as bio-active
materials.

Researchers at the University of Guelph are studying
the fate of 2,4-D, mecoprop and dicamba applied to
turf and then composted. They measured a 78-87%
loss of the herbicides over 10 weeks of composting.
But the mass of compost declined by 92%, leading to
an increase in the concentrations of the herbicides.
(see http://www.uoguelph.ca/GTI/94anrep/94r9.htm)

More recently, there have been several instances of
phytotoxicity from composts produced in Washington
State. A relatively new lawn herbicide from Dow
Chemical called 'Confront' (clopyralid) appears to be
causing herbicide damage on plants grown with the
compost from the Spokane, Wash., facility. Confront
is intended to provide residual weed control in the
soil. The product label specifically states "Do not
use compost containing grass clippings from turf
treated with Confront in the growing season of
application."

The herbicide has a half-life of about 250 days. The
60-90 day composting process at Spokane did not
break down the material. Clopyralid was present
only in trace amounts in the compost and in the
plants. The limit of detection is 0.03 ppm, and levels
were below that. Even so, enough herbicide was
present to kill tomato plants.

Recently, a two-part literature review of the fate of
pesticides in composting was published in Compost
Science and Utilization (Buyuksonmez et al.; Fall
1999, Winter 2000). While the recent problem with
Confront was not included, the authors generally
concluded that pesticide degradation in compost is
similar to that in soil. Compost may have different
microbial communities, higher temperatures, and
more active organic matter. But those pesticides that
are persistent in soil and cause residual phytotoxicity
may exhibit the same problems in compost and
should be candidates for more careful monitoring
than pesticides that routinely degrade."

In a word, life is complicated, and a blanket assurance that pesticides are
degraded by composting is not fully adequate in the Brave New World we live
in.

Like others on this list, I do collect substantial quantities of fall
leaves, which are the backbone of my composting and vermicomposting. I rely
on the general virtues of degradation that I know I can expect from
composting, and I tend to stay in the higher range of C:N values, which
favors the fungal growth which I understand is most likely to degrade
recalcitrant materials.

There may be some chlordane in my area, even though it has been banned for
more than a decade, since it was once recommended as a lawn and garden
insecticide. As far as I know, there is not any use of clopyralid in the
local lawn chemical industry.

It could be in food wastes, though. The Canadian government recently
approved clopyralid residues in food materials at levels as high as 7 ppm.
Brave New World, indeed!

Frank Teuton


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dale Wilson" <nosliwelad@YAHOO.COM>
To: <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 5:56 AM
Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] Purity Of Organic Foods


> Dave,
>
> > My wife complains that when I collect the 80 or more bags of leaves
> > from my neighbors that they may have sprayed their trees or worse yet
> > leaves may have touched the spoiled grass, tainted by fertilizers.
>
> When I read this I thought of one of my favorite passages from the
> bible "Love covers a multitude of sins."  The "deep Basidiomycetic
> penetralia of the soil" (to quote E.O. Wilson) is like love.  With very
> few exceptions, everything is broken down and recycled in the pile and
> in soil, and pretty soon everything is "natural."
>
> Dale
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>

.

From - Mon Nov 25 15:15:56 2002
X-UIDL: 322733251
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A24D44001EA; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 15:04:29 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A24A5A680070; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 15:04:26 -0500
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id XR01P92K; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 15:02:36 -0500
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Mon Nov 25 15:03:25 2002 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 0632 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 25 Nov 2002 15:02:57 -0500
Received: from 207.69.200.148 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 15:02:56 -0500
Received: from sdn-ap-015watacop0101.dialsprint.net ([63.191.208.101]
          helo=decou.mindspring.com) by granger.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp
          (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18GPR6-0003MA-00 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 25 Nov 2002 15:02:29 -0500
X-Sender: ddecou/pop.mindspring.com@localhost
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
References: <20021125105640.40484.qmail@web21202.mail.yahoo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Message-ID:  <5.1.0.14.0.20021125120215.00a70250@localhost>
Date:         Mon, 25 Nov 2002 12:05:56 -0800
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Dave DeCou <ddecou@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: Purity Of Organic Foods
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <002e01c294af$91ba79a0$6501a8c0@sympatico.ca>
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322733251
Status: U

At 08:08 AM 11/25/02, you wrote:
>http://www.state.nj.us/dep/dshw/rrtp/compost/problem.htm
>
>"Some pesticides also may be present, particularly in grass clippings, but
>again the levels ordinarily are expected to be too low to pose any concern.
>An unconfirmed 1991 study in Illinois found low levels of 19 pesticides in
>composting yard wastes. The concentrations were so low that all except one
>of the 44 samples met the levels allowed in raw agricultural commodities for
>the 13 detected pesticides for which such levels have been established. (No
>levels are set for the other 6, which were mostly banned pesticides no
>longer in use.) In samples from 6 sites in New Jersey only one pesticide,
>chlordane, was detected. Since chlordane is no longer used, and since it is
>not taken up by plants,

Chlordane is taken up by plants. Cucurbits draw it into their flesh and can
actually concentrate it in their seeds to a level equal to the soil
concentration. I know that this was taken from the above website but it is
certainly in contradiction to the data I have seen here in Oregon. This can
be a real problem for pumpkin seeds, pickles, etc.

>  it is believed that this came from the residential
>soil mixed with the yard waste during raking or bagging.
>
>Based on these considerations and findings, yard waste compost is considered
>safe for residential use without specific testing. The only exception to
>this would be for composts containing materials from golf courses, where
>more intensive use of more toxic and persistent compounds is common. Such
>materials may require testing for specific metals and pesticides before
>general use."
>
>A more careful approach is now warranted due to the clopyralid problem.
>(Moment of silence while we all thank Dow Chemical.)
>
>http://csanr.wsu.edu/programs/compost/cc13.pdf
>
>.....
>"Researchers F.C. Michel and C.A. Reddy at
>Michigan State University studied the fate of three
>commonly used lawn chemicals during composting:
>diazinon, 2,4-D, and pendimethalin (Prowl). A
>laboratory scale compost system was used for leaves
>and grass (in a 2:1 ratio) amended with radiolabeled
>pesticides at levels typical for incoming feedstocks at
>a commercial compost operation. Evolution of
>labeled CO2 was a primary indicator of pesticide
>breakdown.
>
>About 50% of the 2,4-D was mineralized to CO2,
>compared to only 10-13% of the other two pesticides.
>Leaching and volatile losses were low. The
>researchers then searched for the fate of the
>remaining carbon. Much of the labeled carbon from
>all three pesticides was associated with the humic
>materials or was unextractable from the final
>composts. These pesticide residuals appeared
>chemically quite different from the parent compounds
>and less available to plants and animals. Thus, while
>complete mineralization did not occur, decomposition
>appeared to eliminate the pesticides as bio-active
>materials.
>
>Researchers at the University of Guelph are studying
>the fate of 2,4-D, mecoprop and dicamba applied to
>turf and then composted. They measured a 78-87%
>loss of the herbicides over 10 weeks of composting.
>But the mass of compost declined by 92%, leading to
>an increase in the concentrations of the herbicides.
>(see http://www.uoguelph.ca/GTI/94anrep/94r9.htm)
>
>More recently, there have been several instances of
>phytotoxicity from composts produced in Washington
>State. A relatively new lawn herbicide from Dow
>Chemical called 'Confront' (clopyralid) appears to be
>causing herbicide damage on plants grown with the
>compost from the Spokane, Wash., facility. Confront
>is intended to provide residual weed control in the
>soil. The product label specifically states "Do not
>use compost containing grass clippings from turf
>treated with Confront in the growing season of
>application."
>
>The herbicide has a half-life of about 250 days. The
>60-90 day composting process at Spokane did not
>break down the material. Clopyralid was present
>only in trace amounts in the compost and in the
>plants. The limit of detection is 0.03 ppm, and levels
>were below that. Even so, enough herbicide was
>present to kill tomato plants.
>
>Recently, a two-part literature review of the fate of
>pesticides in composting was published in Compost
>Science and Utilization (Buyuksonmez et al.; Fall
>1999, Winter 2000). While the recent problem with
>Confront was not included, the authors generally
>concluded that pesticide degradation in compost is
>similar to that in soil. Compost may have different
>microbial communities, higher temperatures, and
>more active organic matter. But those pesticides that
>are persistent in soil and cause residual phytotoxicity
>may exhibit the same problems in compost and
>should be candidates for more careful monitoring
>than pesticides that routinely degrade."
>
>In a word, life is complicated, and a blanket assurance that pesticides are
>degraded by composting is not fully adequate in the Brave New World we live
>in.
>
>Like others on this list, I do collect substantial quantities of fall
>leaves, which are the backbone of my composting and vermicomposting. I rely
>on the general virtues of degradation that I know I can expect from
>composting, and I tend to stay in the higher range of C:N values, which
>favors the fungal growth which I understand is most likely to degrade
>recalcitrant materials.
>
>There may be some chlordane in my area, even though it has been banned for
>more than a decade, since it was once recommended as a lawn and garden
>insecticide. As far as I know, there is not any use of clopyralid in the
>local lawn chemical industry.
>
>It could be in food wastes, though. The Canadian government recently
>approved clopyralid residues in food materials at levels as high as 7 ppm.
>Brave New World, indeed!
>
>Frank Teuton
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Dale Wilson" <nosliwelad@YAHOO.COM>
>To: <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
>Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 5:56 AM
>Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] Purity Of Organic Foods
>
>
> > Dave,
> >
> > > My wife complains that when I collect the 80 or more bags of leaves
> > > from my neighbors that they may have sprayed their trees or worse yet
> > > leaves may have touched the spoiled grass, tainted by fertilizers.
> >
> > When I read this I thought of one of my favorite passages from the
> > bible "Love covers a multitude of sins."  The "deep Basidiomycetic
> > penetralia of the soil" (to quote E.O. Wilson) is like love.  With very
> > few exceptions, everything is broken down and recycled in the pile and
> > in soil, and pretty soon everything is "natural."
> >
> > Dale
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> > http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> >

Yours,
Dave DeCou

.

From - Mon Nov 25 23:15:19 2002
X-UIDL: 322733282
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A0B087F0160; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 21:47:12 -0500
Received: from mpls-qmqp-02.inet.qwest.net [63.231.195.113] by smtp.intrex.net
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A0B11AC8005A; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 21:47:13 -0500
Received: (qmail 28562 invoked by uid 0); 26 Nov 2002 02:37:23 -0000
Received: from unknown (63.231.195.10)
  by mpls-qmqp-02.inet.qwest.net with QMQP; 26 Nov 2002 02:37:23 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO soilfoodweb.com) (63.224.202.158)
  by mpls-pop-10.inet.qwest.net with SMTP; 26 Nov 2002 02:47:08 -0000
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 18:51:17 -0800
Message-ID: <3DE2E1A5.9020900@soilfoodweb.com>
From: "Soil Foodweb, Inc." <info@soilfoodweb.com>
To: "elaine" <soilfoodweb@aol.com>
Organization: Soil Foodweb Inc.
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: SFI Nov 2002 In-text E-zine
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Declude-Sender: info@soilfoodweb.com [63.231.195.113]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
X-UIDL: 322733282
Status: U

November 2002 SFI E-ZINE

Ive been giving workshops this month. We finished an extensive E. coli 
and compost tea testing, so stay tuned for that. We have the results 
from the Tea Grant this summer, and that should be in next months 
e-zine. We have the results from a test where we did plate counts ala 
BBC Lab, and direct counts, and plant disease assessment, so stay tuned 
on that as well.


Table of Contents
· HOT NEWS
o Engineered fungus kills crop plants
o ACRES USA workshops
o NOSB  Reiten response
· NEW YORK NEWS
· AUSTRALIA NEWS
· MAIN LAB NEWS
o Different kinds of anaerobic  Steve Diver
o John Sundquist project
o SFI Advisors
· Q&A
o Leachate versus tea
------------------------
HOT NEWS
1. Engineered Fungus Meant to Kill Weeds also Kills Non-Weeds

Hi there and thanks 4 another interesting e-zine.

Did you folks happen to see the item in a recent NEW SCIENTIST mag? 

NEW SCIENTIST article "Genetically engineered fungus bites back at the 
crops it's meant to save" (28 September 2002) p. 7 (no link as yet)

For the first time, a fungus has been genetically modified to be more 
deadly to the weed it blights. The snag is that the GM fungus kills 
non-weed plants as well...

Cheers
Z Grammer
New Zealand!

Yes - do check it out- my friend (a mycologist) was scathing about the 
latest GE stuff up, stating (private email):
"well i knew this would happen sooner or later....as a mycologist im 
always amazed by the resilence and cleverness of the fungal kingdom to 
do its thing...and I bet the "scientists" who created this GMO fungus 
never bothered to do even consult an fungal ecologist to undertake risk 
assessments with a holistic ecosystem approach!!!! GRRRRR!"

keep up the good work
we battle on to keep GE out of NZ

xZ
NZ
-----------------------------------------------

2. ACRES USA meeting workshops!
Improving Soil and Foliar Foodwebs
A Practical Approach
Elaine Ingham, Ph.D.
Tuesday-Wednesday, Dec. 10-11, 2002
8:30 a.m. - 5 p.m. daily
Adams Mark Airport Hotel, Indianapolis, Indiana
$300/person
And also -

SATURDAY, DEC. 14
9-10:30 a.m.
"Compost Tea 501"
Elaine Ingham, Ph.D.
The benefits of healthy soil biota are well known among sustainable 
farmers. For growers interested in sharpening their understanding of the 
composting process, as well as gaining new insight on the practice of 
using compost teas, this fact-filled lecture is sure to please. Soil 
foodweb researcher Elaine Ingham defines what a good compost tea is, she 
discusses the optimal use of compost teas. Dr. Ingham will take a 
comprehensive look at the use of creating composting brews to help 
restore or augment the biological life in the soil. She will discuss the 
purpose of compost tea, factors affecting tea quality, options of 
aerobic versus anaerobic teas, beneficial organisms, and compost tea 
recipes. An advanced presentation which will "cut to the quick."
Info on the pre-conference workshop at
http://www.acresusa.com/events/02conf/ingham.htm

Agenda w/ the two speaking times and dates at
http://www.acresusa.com/events/02conf/02agenda.htm

Please can find more information on the conference or register at 
www.acresusa.com or call 1-800-355-5313.

3. NOSB - Reiten Response
About three weeks ago, Joel Reiten sent an e-mail to the SANET and 
Compost_Tea list serves defending the studies used by the Compost Task 
Force to make their initial recommendation about compost tea. I e-mailed 
him back with my comments about what was incorrect in his information. 
He has not responded.

Mr. Reiten was at the Washington Tilth Producers conference in Yakima, 
WA on Nov 8, where I presented information about the NOSB decision and 
E. coli in compost tea. He disagrees with the US Geological Survey that 
water cannot hold more oxygen than the USGS says is the MAXIMUM amount 
of oxygen that water can hold, given temperature and air pressure.

I'm pretty sure that USGS scientists know what they are talking about, 
especially since the data are on their website, in a nice black and 
white table. According to this USGS information, the oxygen data in the 
BBC Lab study are not possible, given the temperature and elevation at 
which the studies were performed. This makes the BBC Lab study that 
suggested that E. coli grew in aerobic conditions in the Growing 
Solutions machine highly questionable.

At the meeting, Mr. Reiten then started screaming at me that I didn't 
know what I was talking about. I invited him to discuss his opinion with 
me after the meeting, since it was not useful to the majority of the 
people in the room to have to listen to a screaming person.

Mr. Reiten's response was to yell at me that my words proved that I 
wasn't interested in open and free discussion. Free and open discussion 
with someone yelling and screaming at me?

I pointed out to him that I have been freely and openly discussing my 
data and information since last April, when the Compost Task Force came 
out with their first recommendation. Something had to be done to show 
that the studies used as the basis for the Compost Task Force's 
recommendation did not apply to compost tea and that in fact, there was 
no evidence in the BBC Lab study that the tea stayed aerobic through the 
entire brew cycle.

Anytime since last April, Mr. Reiten could have responded to my comments 
in any forum he chose. He could have presented written information from 
whatever expert he wished, but instead he chose to attempt to intimidate 
me in a public forum.

I suggested that his actions clearly showed that it was him, not me, 
that was not interested in open and honest communication.

Another person at the meeting then asked to read something that they 
thought indicated that E. coli grows aerobically. He read a lab protocol 
about thioglycollate broth (I think that was what he said, I might have 
mis-heard). When a broth like this is autoclaved, the gasses in the 
broth are driven off, leaving the broth at extremely low dissolved 
oxygen levels, typically lower than 1 to 2 mg oxygen per liter. The 
broth has to be shaken in order to introduce enough oxygen - between 4 
to 6 mg oxygen per liter - so E. coli, or other human pathogens, have 
adequate, but not too much, oxygen in order to grow.

This broth also typically contains antibiotics, and thioglycollate, 
which inhibit the growth of many organisms. The person reading this 
protocol thought that having to shake this broth and add oxygen back in 
order to grow E. coli was an indication that E. coli grows aerobically. 
Not the case.

The protocol merely supports what I have been saying. In the lab, when 
we want to enumerate E. coli, we set up conditions that let it grow. But 
in the real world, we use aerobic conditions, with all the consumers, 
inhibitors and competitors to remove E. coli, and other human pathogens. 
Thank goodness these organisms cannot grow when out-competed, inhibited 
and consumed by aerobic organisms, or the human race would have died 
from these diseases long ago.

In the meeting, other questions were then asked. The session ended and I 
stayed in the room for nearly an hour, talking with a number of people. 
Mr. Reiten never came to speak with me, although he had ample 
opportunity. In fact, the person who asked about the thioglycollate 
stayed around with me, hoping that Mr. Reiten would show up so we could 
have a talk.

SFI had a booth at the meeting, so Mr. Reiten knew where I was and could 
have talked to me at any time over the next two days. I saw Mr. Reiten 
several times while I was working at the SFI booth. He never came to 
speak with me, and I never found him when I was free from the booth.

Mr. Reiten has never responded to my personal e-mail to him, to the two 
e-mails I sent to SANET which showed where he was incorrect in his 
points made in his e-mail to SANET, or to my request to speak together 
in a non-confrontational manner after my presentation.

If I am incorrect in my understanding, then show data to correct any 
misunderstanding. There is no need to scream, no need to be 
confrontational.

Show me data. I have discussed only data. I have indicated that BBC Lab 
should respond to questions about their study. The study by Duffy et al. 
can be dismissed as not applying to compost tea, because no one seals a 
compost tea maker, which is what they did in their study.

The fact that Mr. Reiten has not presented data from his expert which he 
spoke about in his e-mail to SANET, the one he said had proof that the 
water in a Growing Solutions compost tea brewer is supersaturated at all 
times with oxygen, suggests to me that his expert does not in fact exist.

Anytime that Mr. Reiten would like to make good on the proof that he 
said he had, the rest of us would listen. We have all waited for him to 
show that data since he made that claim in his e-mail and at the 
Washington Tilth Producers meeting in Yakima, WA.

Enough time has passed. Show your expert and your data, Mr. Reiten, or 
apologize to the readers of this list, and to the people at the 
Washington Tilth Producers meeting, for attempting to mis-lead all of us.

---------
Mr. Reiten's scene at the Washington Tilth Producers meeting occurred 
the same day that the NOSB indicated that they did not accept the 
Compost Task Force's recommendations about compost tea. They did NOT 
institute either the limitation on sugar, molasses or soluble carbon 
materials, or the rejection of compost tea because of the danger of E. coli.

Clearly reason, not hysteria, prevailed.

In a previous post, I commented that properly-made compost should not 
contain E. coli, and thus an across-the-board restriction on all compost 
tea (the second Compost Task Force recommendation, but written by Wil 
Brinton) was not justified.

OMRI has ruled that as long as the compost is certified organic (and is 
therefore reasonably E. coli and human pathogen free), and all the 
materials going into the compost tea are certified organic, then the 
compost tea is certified organic.

That is essentially the recommendation that OMRI made to the NOSB before 
the Compost Task Force made their recommendation. I am glad to be able 
to support OMRI in this, just as when I heard about their likely 
recommendation over a year ago.

When rumors of a moratorium on compost tea were circulating last year, I 
knew that the USDA was probably not involved in calling for a 
moratorium, because the recommendation by OMRI to the USDA seemed sane 
and likely to prevail.

And then rumors of the BBC Lab study and the Albany CA, USDA lab study 
started popping up. Clearly someone was angling toward putting some regs 
on compost tea.

Just after that, we came to an understanding with the people suggesting 
a moratoriium. The official ruling by the EPA is that if a compost tea 
seller makes pesticidal claims for tea, then they have to do the testing 
to show bio-pesticide action or be subject to legal action. So, compost 
tea sellers, make no pesticide claims for compost tea, or do the EPA 
testing.

I thought things were well-settled, the OMRI recommendation had gone 
forward so the USDA was heading in the right direction, and then the 
mess with the Compost Task Force blossomed and the poorly designed 
studies, the one by Duffy, and the one by Bess, were presented at the 
Biocycle meeting in Ohio. And regardless of whether Duffy et al had 
their friends review their manuscript before presenting, it does not 
change the fact that neither the Bess nor the Duffy papers were 
peer-reviewed. Biocycle does not peer-review the papers in their 
magazines, or in the proceedings of their meetings.

Ah well, we all know what happened from there, and it's water over the 
bridge and all that.

Adoption of the OMRI position as official policy by each organic 
organization might be reasonable, however.

I understand from the NOSB minutes that they are considering 
re-convening the Compost Task Force, and I have volunteered to be part 
of that Task Force should it be reconvened. However, re-convening the 
Compost Task Force at this time may not be necessary, if the NOP adopts 
the OMRI recommendation.

SFI is now working on how one can be assured that compost tea is E. 
coli- and human pathogen-free, EVEN IF a not-properly composted, E. coli 
containing (and thus potentially human pathogen containing) compost is 
used.

One of the foremost requirements for having a compost or compost tea 
free of human pathogens is having an adequate number of bacteria, FUNGI, 
and PROTOZOA. Nematodes if possible as well. Proper temperature or 
passage through an earthworm digestive system, and adequate moisture and 
oxygen are also necessary.

Fungi grow just fine in true compost tea, unlike bacterial teas from 
machines where the tea goes anaerobic, that do not extract fungi 
adequtely or whose added food resources kill the fungi. Thus it is a 
good idea to test compost and tea for the presence of the necessary 
organisms.

And beware those machines where the manufacturers say that fungi do not 
grow in tea. There's good indication that if fungi aren't present and 
active, then the tea went anaerobic and possibly grew E. coli, if E. 
coli was present in the starting materials.

Is the reverse true, that if active fungi are present, that E. coli will 
not be present? No, tea can hover around the 5.5 to 6 ppm range, 
allowing E. coli survival and maybe growth and at least some active 
fungi still be present. So, is there an AMOUNT of active fungi that is 
indicative? I think so, but we have to tie this down and make certain in 
case-after-case before I'll publish that in the scientific literature!

Testing for the biomass of active fungi is the easiest way to determine 
whether the proper set of orgnaisms is present. If you have active 
fungi, then most likely you have the bacteria and protozoa you need to 
suppress disease organisms, retain nutrients and build soil structure to 
hold onto water in soil better.

Plate counts CANNOT reveal the presence of active fungi in tea, or 
compost or soil. Plate counts do an excessively poor job of determining 
total fungal biomass as well. They generally miss at least 99%, and 
usually more, of the fungal community. And they certainly do not tell 
you active biomass.

At SFI, we're being reasonably successful at reducing E. coli in 
manure-based compost that has not been adequately composted. We also 
have reduced high E. coli levels in compost to low, low levels in 
compost tea. But, please be aware that reasonably successful does not 
mean 100% of the time!

But the concern only has to be with manure-based compost. Other composts 
should not be contaminated with E. coli, and even if somehow they were, 
proper treatment, such as aerating the compost properly for a few weeks, 
or making aerated tea with the compost, will drop E. coli and other 
pathogens to below detectable levels. But manure-based materials are 
different and need to be tested.

Materials like citric acid, garlic oil, orange oil, tannic acid, juice 
from nettles (Biodynamic preps work!), and similar materials can reduce 
E. coli and thus other human pathogens. We need to keep working on the 
proper amount of these materials to add so that pathogens are killed but 
the beneficial organisms remain healthy.

But please note that in order to do acceptable assessment of E. coli, 
the lab you send samples to for assessment needs to obtain the samples 
within 8 to 12 hours of when you removed the samples from the tea or 
compost. Unless samples can get to SFI within 8 to 12 hours, and we know 
in advance they are coming, it would be much better for you to send 
samples to local microbiology labs for E. coli assessment. Check with 
your local water treatment plant for where they send their E. coli 
samples for assessment.

Ask your compost supplier for E. coli data showing that their compost is 
E. coli free. If you are going to buy organically certified compost, you 
should reasonably expect that they have documentation that they have 
done a good job. They should at least supply temperature and turning 
information for the composting cycle. If you don't know what the proper 
turning cycle is, please e-mail us at SFI and we'll supply you that 
information. Be forewarned, we'll charge money for that information 
($10; it can be faxed or mailed). SFI is a small business and we have to 
stay alive.

I'd be glad to talk with anyone about the tests done (and paid for) by 
SFI. It's a shame for others to re-do what we have tested. There is only 
one exception to this statement that I'll talk with anyone; there is 
only one person, and per his demand, his associates, with whom I will 
not communicate.

People who will not communicate calmly and openly and who cut 
communication with others, retard and prevent advancement of the science 
of composting, compost tea and sustainable agriculture.

Communication is key. Much as some people don't want to acknowledge it, 
we're all in this together, and the only way to forge ahead is to be 
honest with each other. Confrontation is not required, if the people 
involved are honest in their desire to know and understand.

Please excuse me for the long post, but it didn't seem to work to split 
this one up.

Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
www.soilfoodweb.com

NEW YORK NEWS

The list of SFI Certified Advisers is on the SFI web site! Please see 
who is nearest you!


AUSTRALIA NEWS

Scott Alexander asked about the newer recipes, which have been changed 
from the Second and Third Editions. You need to talk with your 
tea-machine maker about the right amounts of nutrients to use in 
different conditions. If your tea machine maker doesnt understand that 
nutrient concentrations need to change as you go through the year, you 
should go looking for information elsewhere.

Scott asked:
Amount of compost? &.. (Ill be using vermin-compost, old forest litter 
& some of the soil under it, and old wood chip mulch with fungal threads 
through it)

900 liters is 250 gallons? Use 10 to 12 pounds of compost. If the 
compost is dry, use 15 pounds.

Fish/kelp/fulvic acid blend&..

0.5 kg kelp

Lucerne hay & mulch hay&&

A handful of the combination. They are your protozoan enhancement, right?

Humic acid&&.

1.5 L humic acid, or the Tryton Bio-Starter product you ask about below.

An organic Tryton liquid product now marketed by Nutri-Tech solutions&&..

How fungal do you want this? Id use just the Bio-Starter liquid in 
place of the other humic acids.

Molasses&&.

What is the ambient temperature that you are at? You would add 1 L of 
molasses if you have cool temperatures.

Above 22 C, add only 0.5 L molasses. If above 25 C, add only 0.25 L 
molasses. Above 30 C, do not add molasses at all. Oxygen concentration 
is the concern at 30 C and above.

Let me know how it smells when you are done. Try the sealed in a bottle 
check for oxygen concentration.

Elaine

MAIN LAB NEWS

1. Different kinds of anaerobic -

From:steved@NCATARK.UARK.EDU
Reply-to:SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
To:SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Sent from the Internet ()

I have been away a couple of weeks, traveling through India examining 
biodynamic and organic agriculture, so I am just now reading through 
this Sanet thread.

It so happens I also met Sanjay Aggarwal with Maple Organics, who has 
plenty of experience working with EM in agriculture and effluent waste 
streams.

It may be helpful to sunmmarize three microbial pathways in relation to 
organic matter decomposition:

1. Aerobic thermophyllic
2. Putrefactive anaerobic
3. Fermentative anaerobic

Putrefactive anaerobic is the rotting manure that sits in the open 
drawing flies.

If you take that same manure and mix it with biomass and build a compost 
pile with proper C:N ratio, moisture, and aeration, you get a 
thermophyllic heating process that turns into a crumbly, dark, humus 
material known as compost.

If you spray the manure in the animal stall with EM it will initiate a 
fermentative anaerobic microbial pathway and prevent flies and odors. 
You can later take that EM-sprayed manure to the thermophyllic compost 
pile, or you can build an EM heap and promote a breakdown process that 
results in fermented biomass.

I do not consider humified compost and fermented biomass to be the same 
thing, yet both are useful processes and products.

EM is fermentative anaerobic. So is miso, kim chee, tempeh, and a number 
of Oriential foods, as well as ensilage for your dairy cow.

E. coli is a putrefactive organism, it is not compatible with EM.

E. coli in organic agriculture, compost teas, and related biological 
farming technologies including EM is an overblown topic, it seems to me.

Elaine Ingham has already summarized the compost tea situation pretty well.

It is an unfortunate turn of events that NOP went down the path of E. 
coli hysteria at the same time the compost tea industry is taking off 
like wild fire, providing a dynamic new tool for organic agriculture.

A 120 day waiting period kicks compost tea out of the life cycle of the 
crop. Yet it is the inoculation of the leaf surface and the root surface 
with compost tea
which results in such a dynamic benefit to the crop, especially at 
crucial stages of growth.

Compost teas provide soluble nutrients which promote a noticeable 
greening of crops, they provide bioactive compounds which function as 
biostimulants and effect
metabolic processes, and they provide beneficial microorganicsm which 
coat the plant surfaces and provide numerous biocontrol mechanisms.

Steve Diver
-----------------------------------------------
2. John Sundquist project!

As we approach winter, our garden beds should be starting to shine. I 
love winter gardening! We have a lot of greens (such as kales, lettuces, 
chickories, mustard, mizuna, arugula, etc) out here that I can bring in 
as transplants, if anybody wants. There's still time to plant garlic and 
fava beans at the sites. Some wheat, rye barley, oats or other grains 
are fun to plant now and watch grow. Does anyone want seeds?

Now is the time to plant our winter "green manure" cover crops of 
innoculated clovers, fava beans, field peas, and vetches. The 
innoculation coats the seeds with the specific microbes that colonize 
the plants' roots and fix nitrogen (the chemical reactions which take 
place underground (and in the oceans) that change atmospheric nitrogen 
to simple urea) Other plants and animals use the fixed nitrogen to 
produce the protein and DNA that eventually ends up in our bodies.

Fertility When be built our beds, we filled them with a 3-1-1 mixture of 
loam, rock dust, and compost. We added dried kelp, then a drench of 
compost tea, and finallly covered them with ground hemlock bark. The 
well-drained loam allows a lot of air to mix with the rest of the 
ingredients, which, when kept moist, generates the biological activity 
which feed our plants. The rock dust and kelp provide the minerals our 
soil food web needs for maximum growth. The hemlock bark mulch on top 
preserves moisture and promotes beneficial fungal growth, which 
accelerates nutrient cycling.

Is anyone experiencing fertility problems? If so, give a jingle, it may 
be time for a soil test at Soil Foodweb, Inc. Speaking of which, I'm 
looking forward to attending a 3-day workshop at SFI, on Nov 21-23. I'll 
be looking for materials we can incorporate into our lessons. They might 
have more places available.

Good gardening to all!


3. SFI Advisors Workshop
The next advisors workshop will be in January, at SFI. The attendance 
is limited to 10 people, and the class is full already. Well hold 
another advisors workshop in May. Please let Twila or Kirk at SFI know 
about your interest!
Please remember, that you need to have taken the introductory SFI course 
before attending. The next introductory course is at ACRES USA.
-------------------------------
Q&A
1. Leachate with organisms?
Scott Alexander wrote:

Elaine - I'm confused! In your October E-zine you say:-

Worm juice rarely contains the organisms, because it is a leachate, not a
tea. Generally it does not need to be put to sleep, because there aren't
enough organisms in it to worry about.

AND

This is worm juice or leachate straight from the bed. The worm leachate was
placed in a 5 gal tea maker with aeration stones and aeration maintained.
The results show that the juice was low in fungal biomass, but by brewing 24
hours, a great fungal community developed.

If I've read it right, in the first paragraph you say there are no organisms
but in the second you say that if you aerate the leachate you get great
fungal numbers?

How is this done? What foods do you use to get the fungal numbers? Can I
make a good leachate simply by spraying water over my worm farm and
collecting the liquid?

Scott Alexander

Hi Scott -

Good point on this apparent discrepancy. Can I put your observation in 
the next e-zine, because you are right, this needs explanation.

The worm leachate, in this particular instance, had enough beneficial 
organisms that they did grow and result in good fungal biomass. But 
notice that there was no dilution with water, no additional foods put 
in, but by simply aerating, this allowed the beneficial fungi to have a 
great time.

Typically, leachates don't have adequate organism biomass, but given 
help, the few organisms present can grow and give you good organism biomass.

You can make a good leachate from your worm beds, but then realize that 
you are removing nutrients from your worm compost. Which do you want - 
leachate with the nutrients, or the compost with the nutrients?

Hope this helps!

Elaine



.

From - Tue Nov 26 00:39:22 2002
X-UIDL: 322733289
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A4B33700C8; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 00:20:51 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AF14179600B2; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 23:56:52 -0500
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id XT8TNBX3; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 23:56:34 -0500
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Mon Nov 25 23:57:26 2002 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 1286 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 25 Nov 2002 23:56:58 -0500
Received: from 64.12.136.5 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with TCP;
          Mon, 25 Nov 2002 23:56:58 -0500
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-m02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id
          d.195.1130bd8a (4214) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Mon, 25 Nov
          2002 23:56:28 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="part1_195.1130bd8a.2b1458fc_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows AU sub 10503
Message-ID:  <195.1130bd8a.2b1458fc@aol.com>
Date:         Mon, 25 Nov 2002 23:56:28 EST
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Aerobic / Anaerobic Conditions
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322733289
Status: U

--part1_195.1130bd8a.2b1458fc_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

As most microbiology text books discuss, there is a gradient from fully
aerobic to fully anaerobic, and the shift from one to the other depends on
the process you are discussing.

There really aren't any assumptions here.  Lack of clarity when people don't
define terms, but no assumptions.

In general the process which defines aerobic metabolism is use of oxygen as
the final electron acceptor in cytochrome respiration.  Anaerobic metabolism
may still use electron acceptors, but some other molecule is the final
electron acceptor, not oxygen.  Steve Diver did a good job of covering kinds
of anaerobic metabolism a few days ago, so I won't repeat.

In general, on average, the switch from aerobic metabolism to anaerobic
metabolism in most organisms begins in the range around 6 mg oxygen per
liter.  By the time you get to 4 or 5 mg oxygen per liter, pretty much only
the facultative anaerobes are still capable of functioning, and they will be
performing anaerobic metabolism, for the most part.  By the time you are
lower than 2 mg/L, it's strictly anaerobic metabolism.

As you go from the outside of a biofilm towards the middle or bottom of a
biofilm, oxygen drops from aerobic levels dependent on elevation and
temperature, usually around 8 to 9 mg oxygen per liter, down easily to 1 or 2
mg oxygen per liter.

Some of the earliest work done on this IN SOIL was by Sexstone and Tiedje,
back in 1984 or so.   They showed oxygen dropped from fully aerobic to less
than 0.2, as I recall, within just a few micrometers distance, going from
outside an aggregate, to the inside of an aggregate.

So, yes, there can be a huge mix of conditions in many environmental samples,
from fully aerobic to fully anaerobic, within mere fractions of inches.

The conditions that occur in compost can result in aggregates that would
allow E. coli to thrive in anaerobic environments, while outside those
aggregates, aerobic conditions were the norm, with no E. coli present.  The
E. coli in the aggregates are not likely to survive for long, if the
aggregate breaks open and the aerobes charge in.

A compost tea on the other hand, is well-stirred, and well-aerated.  But
still, the organisms in any liquid, compost tea included, can grow so fast
that you can outstrip the aeration capacity of almost anything if you feed
bacteria enough food.

That's why the conclusion that molasses and sugar cause E. coli to grow is
just silly.  We have done many tea brews where molasses was added and no E.
coli were detected, while the same recipe, with a different food added,
resulted in the growth of E. coli.  It's the anaerobic conditions that are
important.  Not the KIND of food.

Yes, E. coli likes simple sugars, but as fulvic acid is used by fungi, simple
sugars are released.  So, does fulvic acid cause E. coli to grow?  It can, if
the amount of released food gets the bacteria growing so fast that they
consume the oxygen faster than it can diffuse back into the medium.

What has to be understood is the balance of oxygen diffusion (dependent on
air pressure and temperature) and oxygen consumption by the organisms.

So, non-aerated compost tea can cycle between aerobic and anaerobic,
depending on the rate of growth of the organisms and the kind of organisms in
the tea.  Can E. coli grow in anaerobic teas?  Sure, during the facultative
anaerobic phases.  Will E. coli then be out-competed during the fully
anaerobic periods, and the fully aerobic phases.  Yep.   So, what's the
balance?  Enough to completely knock out the E. coli?   Maybe.  Maybe not.
Depends on lots of things.

Putting an oxygen probe into soil, or compost, can be quite hazardous to the
continued functioning of the sensitive and fragile membrane on the oxygen
probe.  So in solids, most people protect that probe with a pipe that pulls
the atmosphere  from the pile and passes it by the oxygen probe.  Carbon
dioxide probes are most robust, so CO2 tends to be the preferred measurement
when dealing with solids.

Hope this helps -

Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
www.soilfoodweb.com

--part1_195.1130bd8a.2b1458fc_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">As most microbiology text books discuss, there is a gradient from fully aerobic to fully anaerobic, and the shift from one to the other depends on the process you are discussing.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
There really aren't any assumptions here.&nbsp; Lack of clarity when people don't define terms, but no assumptions.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
In general the process which defines aerobic metabolism is use of oxygen as the final electron acceptor in cytochrome respiration.&nbsp; Anaerobic metabolism may still use electron acceptors, but some other molecule is the final electron acceptor, not oxygen.&nbsp; Steve Diver did a good job of covering kinds of anaerobic metabolism a few days ago, so I won't repeat.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
In general, on average, the switch from aerobic metabolism to anaerobic metabolism in most organisms begins in the range around 6 mg oxygen per liter.&nbsp; By the time you get to 4 or 5 mg oxygen per liter, pretty much only the facultative anaerobes are still capable of functioning, and they will be performing anaerobic metabolism, for the most part.&nbsp; By the time you are lower than 2 mg/L, it's strictly anaerobic metabolism.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
As you go from the outside of a biofilm towards the middle or bottom of a biofilm, oxygen drops from aerobic levels dependent on elevation and temperature, usually around 8 to 9 mg oxygen per liter, down easily to 1 or 2 mg oxygen per liter. <BR>
<BR>
Some of the earliest work done on this IN SOIL was by Sexstone and Tiedje, back in 1984 or so.&nbsp;&nbsp; They showed oxygen dropped from fully aerobic to less than 0.2, as I recall, within just a few micrometers distance, going from outside an aggregate, to the inside of an aggregate.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
So, yes, there can be a huge mix of conditions in many environmental samples, from fully aerobic to fully anaerobic, within mere fractions of inches.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
The conditions that occur in compost can result in aggregates that would allow E. coli to thrive in anaerobic environments, while outside those aggregates, aerobic conditions were the norm, with no E. coli present.&nbsp; The E. coli in the aggregates are not likely to survive for long, if the aggregate breaks open and the aerobes charge in.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
A compost tea on the other hand, is well-stirred, and well-aerated.&nbsp; But still, the organisms in any liquid, compost tea included, can grow so fast&nbsp; that you can outstrip the aeration capacity of almost anything if you feed bacteria enough food.<BR>
<BR>
That's why the conclusion that molasses and sugar cause E. coli to grow is just silly.&nbsp; We have done many tea brews where molasses was added and no E. coli were detected, while the same recipe, with a different food added, resulted in the growth of E.. coli.&nbsp; It's the anaerobic conditions that are important.&nbsp; Not the KIND of food.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Yes, E. coli likes simple sugars, but as fulvic acid is used by fungi, simple sugars are released.&nbsp; So, does fulvic acid cause E. coli to grow?&nbsp; It can, if the amount of released food gets the bacteria growing so fast that they consume the oxygen faster than it can diffuse back into the medium.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
What has to be understood is the balance of oxygen diffusion (dependent on air pressure and temperature) and oxygen consumption by the organisms.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
So, non-aerated compost tea can cycle between aerobic and anaerobic, depending on the rate of growth of the organisms and the kind of organisms in the tea.&nbsp; Can E. coli grow in anaerobic teas?&nbsp; Sure, during the facultative anaerobic phases.&nbsp; Will E. coli then be out-competed during the fully anaerobic periods, and the fully aerobic phases.&nbsp; Yep.&nbsp;&nbsp; So, what's the balance?&nbsp; Enough to completely knock out the E. coli?&nbsp;&nbsp; Maybe.&nbsp; Maybe not.&nbsp; Depends on lots of things.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Putting an oxygen probe into soil, or compost, can be quite hazardous to the continued functioning of the sensitive and fragile membrane on the oxygen probe.&nbsp; So in solids, most people protect that probe with a pipe that pulls the atmosphere&nbsp; from the pile and passes it by the oxygen probe.&nbsp; Carbon dioxide probes are most robust, so CO2 tends to be the preferred measurement when dealing with solids.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Hope this helps - <BR>
<BR>
Elaine Ingham<BR>
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.<BR>
www.soilfoodweb.com</FONT></HTML>

--part1_195.1130bd8a.2b1458fc_boundary--

.

From - Wed Nov 27 14:39:02 2002
X-UIDL: 322733384
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A94276015C; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 13:04:53 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A952405400A0; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 13:05:06 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id XT8T30M6; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 13:04:46 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 2682 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Wed, 27 Nov 2002 13:05:15 -0500
Received: from 129.186.140.3 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 13:05:15 -0500
Received: from mailout-1.iastate.edu (mailout-1.iastate.edu [129.186.140.1]) by
          mailhub-1.iastate.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA05738 for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 12:04:47 -0600
Received: from ras-c5800-1-48-125.dialup.wisc.edu(128.104.48.125) by
          mailout-1.iastate.edu via csmap id 26198; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 12:18:43
          -0600 (CST)
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Sender: dmayerfe@dmayerfe.mail.iastate.edu
References: <200211190226.gAJ2Q6E1013162@despam-3.iastate.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Message-ID:  <p0431010fba02fbba707a@[128.104.48.90]>
Date:         Wed, 27 Nov 2002 12:58:46 -0600
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Diane Mayerfeld <dmayerfe@IASTATE.EDU>
Subject: HACCP
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <200211190226.gAJ2Q6E1013162@despam-3.iastate.edu>
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322733384
Status: U

Hello Doug and others following the HACCP thread,


In your response of November 18, you said

>Diane, I have a hard time resolving your Number One (which I
>support) with your number 3.
>
>It seems to me that OTOH we have a methodology that can be applied
>for our own purposes, and OTO we have a myopic perversion or that
>purpose by people wearing blinders.
>
>While I can appreciate the nature of your concern, the validity of
>the principle is not invalidated by a poor implementation of it.

It all depends on how you plan to use HACCP.  If you plan to apply it
purely as a method to help analyze the potential sources of
contamination within your own production system, then it does not
matter what others do with the same method.

However, if you then want to use your application of this method as a
marketing tool, it enters the political arena and it matters what
interpretation others set on it.   It is much like the organic
dilemma, only industrial ag. has become interested in HACCP right at
the start instead of letting it develop outside its sphere of
attention for 20 years.  If you don't plan to use organic status or
HACCP as a marketing tool, you don't need to worry about what the
standards say.  But most farmers will want to take advantage of the
marketing aspect.  And perhaps the greatest concern is the
possibility that rigid HACCP-type standards suitable for industrial
production systems might become mandatory.  I think the latter fear
is why your initial mention of HACCP provoked such a negative
reaction.

Diane Mayerfeld


>In relation to your post of Monday, November 18, 2002 in which you
>said:
>
>1).-
>DM> I agree that HACCP could be a beneficial tool and we should not
>DM> dismiss it because so far it seems to be co-opted by large scale
>DM> industrial food processors.
>
>2).-
>DM> However, I would caution that extending the HACCP process to the
>DM> food production stage will not necessarily solve that problem.
>
>All it has to do is help us avoid us avoid bacterial contamination.
>
>3).-
>DM> For example, I have repeatedly heard that HACCP for pork
>DM> production would preclude outdoor systems such as pasture or
>DM> hoophouse raised pigs because outside sources of infection
>DM> cannot be excluded. Absurd though that may seem to the people on
>DM> this list, given the political influence of the confinement pork
>DM> industry, I think such rumors need to be taken seriously.
>
>Diane, I have a hard time resolving your Number One (which I
>support) with your number 3.
>
>It seems to me that OTOH we have a methodology that can be applied
>for our own purposes, and OTO we have a myopic perversion or that
>purpose by people wearing blinders.
>
>While I can appreciate the nature of your concern, the validity of
>the principle is not invalidated by a poor implementation of it.
>
>Those poor implementations and the political influence of the
>confinement pork industry, are simply problems that can be and have
>to be dealt with separately.
>
>4).-
>DM> Similarly, it is not inconceivable to me that HACCP could be
>DM> (ab)used to prohibit the use of compost tea, which is where this
>DM> whole discussion started, I believe.
>
>The suggestion to apply the valid principles of HACCP in a holistic
>way in order to increase the chances of avoiding a possible
>bacterial contamination problem in organic ag (vs. an almost certain
>toxic residue contamination problem in conventional ag productions
>systems), and still reap the benefits that compost teas are know to
>provide; was mentioned in response to the concerns raised by Chuck
>relative to the need to avoid providing ammo for those who
>manufacture conventional ag's chemical inputs, as well as fund their
>hired guns and produce their PR spin.
>
>Lastly, I know of nothing in this world that can't be abused, if
>someone really wanted to work at it. But does that really matter?
>
>Douglas
>
>-------------------------

.

From - Sat Nov 30 20:21:31 2002
X-UIDL: 322733550
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A0FF85900EA; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 20:08:15 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A10A9E9D00AE; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 20:08:26 -0500
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id XT8TQVFV; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 20:08:12 -0500
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Sat Nov 30 20:08:38 2002 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 3901 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sat, 30 Nov 2002 20:08:25 -0500
Received: from 207.46.181.87 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 20:08:25 -0500
Received: from e7k5x0 ([65.239.181.91]) by cpimssmtpu12.email.msn.com with
          Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4905); Sat, 30 Nov 2002 17:07:50 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0)
Importance: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4920.2300
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Dec 2002 01:07:51.0413 (UTC)
                       FILETIME=[121D5250:01C298D6]
Message-ID:  <MABBIKOOKAHODAEJPBFJGEEPEHAA.rdhopkins@americanpasturage.com>
Date:         Sat, 30 Nov 2002 19:09:27 -0600
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Rick Hopkins <rdhopkins@AMERICANPASTURAGE.COM>
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322733550
Status: U

Elaine is mentioned in this article.  I do have a worry though.  If Monsanto
gets the idea (maybe they already have) that we need transgenic soil
inhabitants, we will end up paying a royalty to them for having Atrazine
tolerant beneficial nematodes infecting our organic fields.

http://ens-news.com/ens/nov2002/2002-11-29-02.asp



Rick Hopkins
President
American Pasturage, Inc.
P.O. Box 190
Marionville, MO  65705
(417) 258-2394
http://www.americanpasturage.com/
For other information concerning grass fed beef see http://www.eatwild.com
and http://www.westonaprice.org
For the American Homestead Foods Certification Program go to
http://www.homesteadfoods.com
Also check out the new Graziers Forum at: http://bbs.americanpasturage.com
And if you have extra time on your hands, go to http://www.saveoursoils.org
We need volunteers to support the content development for this site.

All E-mails are scanned with Norton Anti Virus 2002 prior to sending.

.

From - Fri Nov 29 20:59:27 2002
X-UIDL: 322733489
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A339C900EA; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 18:07:37 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A3415C16009C; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 18:07:45 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id XT8TQ2CA; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 18:07:31 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 3673 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Fri, 29 Nov 2002 18:07:59 -0500
Received: from 203.59.3.38 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with TCP;
          Fri, 29 Nov 2002 18:07:58 -0500
Received: (qmail 4263 invoked from network); 29 Nov 2002 23:01:58 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO dmflkwfouhswsa) (203.59.203.32) by
          mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 29 Nov 2002 23:01:58 -0000
References:  <D73860C907DDCE41BBD68E35EE46AAFC0D3743@riexch01.rodaleinst.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106
Message-ID:  <1b4201c297fb$4702da70$44a83bcb@dmflkwfouhswsa>
Date:         Sat, 30 Nov 2002 07:01:38 +0800
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         David Menne <menne@IINET.NET.AU>
Subject: Paramagnetic Rock Dusts
Comments: cc: BrixTalk@yahoogroups.com
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322733489
Status: U

Well the results are in, and Paramagnetic did not Win, and the popular views
on paramagnetism - derived from Callahan - and its effect on plant growth
appear obfuscatory.

In the results of properly constituted greenhouse trials(*) I have just
viewed, amendments with Quaternary Basalt of fairly respectable
paramagnetism 1350x10-6 cgs units very significantly outperformed amendments
with Metamorphic rock (hornfels) with an amazingly high  paramagnetism of
7750x10-6 cgs units.

(*)(a) Growing Media : 1:1:1 coco-peat:perlite:river sand.
(b) Amendment : 10 t rock dust/ha in the top 10 cm of the mix [plus
Nutratherm GR50 soil microbial treatments - contain organic carbon, fish
emulsion, kelp, humate, humic & fulvic acids, sugars, carbohydrates, amino
acids, digested organic matter and biologicals in heavy liquid form - Acres
Australia, 1999]
9 rock dusts with paramagnetism ranging from under 300x10-6 cgs units to
over 7000x10-6 cgs were assessed.
(c) Plant : Raphanus sativus [radish] cv. "Long Scarlet" as currently used
in the Australian Standard for potting mixes

Plant heights after 8 weeks were 230 mm for the modestly paramagnetic
Quarternary Basalt amended potting soil vs 170 mm for that amended with very
highly paramagnetic the Metamorphic hornfels. That is 26% LESS for the very
highly paramagnetic Metamorphic hornfels; 35% MORE for the modestly
paramagnetic Quarternary Basalt.

However, rightly, many would say : "height is not a meaningful measure ...
spindly etiolated ... mumble  bumble etc....  Plant weight... Actual biomass
production,   mumble bumle etc...."

So I looked at Plant weights, After 8 weeks they were about 35 g (wet), 2.9
g (dry) for the modestly paramagnetic Quarternary Basalt amended potting
soil vs 15 g (wet), 1.2 g (dry)  for that amended with the very highly
paramagnetic Metamorphic hornfels. That is 60% LESS for the very highly
paramagnetic Metamorphic hornfels; 140% MORE for the modestly paramagnetic
Quarternary Basalt.

???? ??? ?? ? [as the late Lee Falk used to draw in to the Phantom, "the
ghost who walks" - "you can run, but you can't hide"].

So I, "the ghost who sees all, knows all" - "you can obfuscate, but you
cannot confuse", sought out : what did Callahan really say ?

And came across the following "review" [
http://froebuck.home.texas.net/newpage3.htm ] which might be of interest to
some SANET [and BrixTalker] members :

PHIL CALLAHAN, THE GURU OF PARAMAGNETISM

The idea of using lava sand to add "paramagnetic energy" to the soil didn't
originate with Howard Garrett, the "Doctor of Dirt," although he has become
it's chief proponent. Rather, as he wrote in his column in The Dallas
Morning News on September 8, 1995:

"I learned about lava sand from Phil Callahan, the scientist who taught me
to add lava sand to the soil.To learn more about soil and plant energy, read
any of Mr. Callahan's books."

That seemed fair enough, so I took him up on his suggestion. I acquired the
books and read them from cover to cover. And, indeed, it was both an
education and an eye opener -- a foray into a world I previously believed to
exist only in the realm of fable and New Age superstition.

Philip S. Callahan, Ph. D., schooled as an entomologist, was stationed in
Ireland as a radio technician during World War II. He has written two books
dealing specifically with his discoveries there of the seemingly magical
properties of the ancient Irish round towers and of certain rocks and rock
powders. Titled Nature's Silent Music and Paramagnetism--Rediscovering
Nature's Secret Force of Growth, these books are available from his
publisher, Acres U.S.A. (P. O. Box 91299, Austin, TX 78709, telephone
800-355-5313, website www.acresusa.com).

Reading either of these books should be enough for any intelligent person to
learn all he or she would ever need to know about Dr. Callahan, lava sand,
and paramagnetism.

On the other hand, if you would like to know more about the pursuits and
conclusions of Dr. Callahan before purchasing either of these books, I'll
relate for you a sampling of what he has to say. And I'll include page
numbers in case you want to refer to the original texts and confirm that I
am not inventing any of this and that I am not, in any manner, distorting
his words.

On the other hand, if you're a devout believer in pyramid power, the magical
qualities of quartz crystals, and other New Age phenomena, you may just want
to skip the rest of this.
Nature's Silent Music (1992)

In Nature's Silent Music (page 32), Dr. Callahan tells us that the ancient
Hebrews and Egyptians understood and utilized the power which is in rocks.
Modern Jews still do this, he says, when they visit the Wailing Wall in
Jerusalem.

Furthermore, while traveling around Ireland, Dr. Callahan claims to have
located some magical rocks.
Presumably, he says (page 34), since long before the ancient Egyptian
civilization, man has attributed mystical and supernatural powers to rocks
and rock crystals. He adds that, according to his own measurements,
sea-green slate is the most magical rock of all. (Curiously, this conflicts
with his next statement, below, since slate is not an igneous rock. Rather,
it's a metamorphic rock derived from shale and is, therefore, not of
volcanic origin.)

According to Dr. Callahan (page 38), the ancient Celtic and megalithic
peoples knew all about the energy emitted by granite and "other igneous and
metamorphic stone of volcanic origin." He says (page 39) that the early
Irish Celts also understood the healing forces in their highly paramagnetic
granite rocks. All over Ireland, he continues, there are "standing stones
utilized for healing and also as birthing stones for the Celtic lassies."

Where did these stones get this power? According to Dr. Callahan (page 56),
the crushing and grinding forces of the drifting continents caused great
quantities of cosmic energy to be trapped within the minerals that make up
stone and clay. And "one of these energies is the little understood force
called paramagnetism," which he says the ancients knew how to manipulate.

If you're not familiar with the terms "paramagnetism" and "diamagnetism,"
they are the positive and negative aspects of an electromagnetic property
described in many books used to teach elementary college physics. But Dr.
Callahan refers to them as forces or energies. To comprehend what he means,
he says (page 63), we must understand them as the ancients did. Of course,
he repeats, modern man doesn't understand them at all, despite the fact that
we have scientific names for them.

The Chinese call them yin and yang, he explains. And, although the ancient
Irish had no specific names for them, they "saw them in the abodes of
fairies and leprechauns." He says (page 69) he now knows that what modern
science calls paramagnetism and diamagnetism are, in reality, the magical
forces the ancient Celtic and megalithic peoples found in rocks and plants.

In later travels in the Far East and around the globe, Dr. Callahan became
aware of other mysterious phenomena. As an example (page 118), he describes
the magic of Sai Baba, an Indian mystic. Apparently, Sai Baba can
materialize "sacred dust" from his fingers. And, according to Dr. Callahan,
nobody has ever proved that he is practicing sleight of hand.

Using the "theory of materialization" and Einstein's formula, Dr. Callahan
goes on to explain (page 119) that Sai Baba's feat is entirely possible.
Einstein's formula (E=mc²) "demands light having speeds equal to or lower
than the energy," he says, and mass wouldn't exist at all "were not light
traveling at speeds equal to or slower than the speed of light squared."
(Check it out; I am not making this up.)

In a provocative footnote on page 120, Dr. Callahan explains that a particle
moving faster than the speed of light is called a tachyon, and a message
sent by such a particle would actually arrive before it was sent. He also
states that he published, in 1986, the first experimental proof that tachyon
particles actually exist. (One of the world's great unsolved mysteries is
why Dr. Callahan has never been honored with the Nobel Prize in physics for
such an amazing and historic achievement.)

On page 179, he reminds us again that the ancient Egyptians knew about both
human auras and silent forces in the rocks. Therefore, he says, they had two
separate hieroglyphs for stone. One represented "limestone types of rocks
that are diamagnetic, or very weakly paramagnetic." The other represented
"granite, porphyry, basalt and other highly paramagnetic stone."

In his own experiments (page 180), Dr. Callahan found that good fertile soil
is highly paramagnetic and that viable soil always comes from volcanic rock,
which he says is much more likely to be paramagnetic than sedimentary rocks,
such as limestone (and, I presume, shale, which is converted into his "most
magical of all rocks," sea-green slate.)

He then says (page 185) that construction engineers ought to be interested
in these two forces "since concrete (limestone) and clay (adobe) are highly
paramagnetic," and water is diamagnetic. (Personally, I found this statement
to be a bit confusing, since he had previously described limestone, on pages
179 and 180, as being diamagnetic or weakly paramagnetic.)

In any case, he claims that both the growing of crops and the hardening of
cement depend on the joining together of these "opposite yin and yang
forces."

In an epilogue, Dr. Callahan says (page 194) that the most important
principle he wants to impart is that we must "treat rocks, stone and even
the soil as antenna collectors of magnetic energy waves." He points out
that, in his opinion, the ancient Celtic round towers of Ireland are conical
antennas, that rocks are antennas, and that even soil is a flat ground
antenna if it contains enough volcanic, paramagnetic rock.

The other side is the diamagnetic force of the organic matter, which, he
assures us, is just as important. It stores the water, but the paramagnetic
forces control its evaporation.

So, how does one accomplish a balance? Dr. Callahan admits (page 195) that
filling the soil with magnets wouldn't be very practical, even though, he
says, magnetic energy controls root growth. On the other hand, he believes
that restoring "this paramagnetic energy collector.with truck loads of
volcanic gravel or ash plowed into the soil is a much more practical idea."

And Dr. Callahan believes this same approach is extremely practical for
small gardeners, "as is the building of six foot miniature round towers in a
garden." (I'll swear it once more; I'm not making any of this up.)

Finally, he sums up his approach by saying, "It is much better to do all
things as God intended by capturing the magnetic frequencies from the sun
with the paramagnetic soil or round tower antenna. In one sentence, make
your soil susceptible (resonate) to the sun, do not, with magnets, try to
bring the sun to earth."

On the other hand, Dr. Callahan has recently joined forces with Nature's
Alternatives to tout the mineral magnetite as a soil amendment because it is
"the most paramagnetic of all rocks." This is, in effect, adding magnets to
the soil, since magnetite is a permanently magnetic form of iron ore,
commonly known as lodestone. As such, it is ferromagnetic and not
paramagnetic at all. So maybe he has changed his mind since writing this
book. But he still doesn't understand what paramagnetism is.

Paramagnetism (1995)

Much of this same information is repeated or summarized in his second book,
Paramagnetism, but Dr. Callahan introduces an additional aspect when he
describes (pages 80 and 81) the need for an inexpensive, hand-held meter for
measuring the paramagnetism of soil samples. It turns out that he, working
with others, has developed just such a device. (Surprise! Surprise!)

Dr. Callahan's meter is named the P. C. Soil Meter (PCSM), which, he
explains, can be interpreted as either the "Paramagnetic Count Soil Meter"
or the "Phil Callahan Soil Meter," whichever you choose. The wonderful
thing, he says, is that this meter can be bought for only $400, instead of
the $4,000 to $5,000 cost of other meters of this type.
If you want to buy a PCSM for your own use, or if you're interested in the
plans for building miniature round towers for your garden, I feel sure you
could contact Dr. Callahan through his publisher, Acres U.S.A. Or maybe the
"Doctor of Dirt" can help you.

As a final thought to ponder, on page 270 of the 1996 revision of
Eco-Farm-An Acres U.S.A. Primer, written and published by Dr. Callahan's own
publisher, there is a curious, but revealing statement. "Phil Callahan," it
says, "is a bug man and a generalist of sorts. We wish he were also a soils
man." 'Nuff said.

Addendum

It turns out that Phil Callahan wrote a book in 1984, which preceded the two
discussed here. That book, Ancient Mysteries, Modern Visions, was previously
out of print, but Acres U.S.A. reissued it in the latter part of 2000, so
it's once again available.

In this earlier work, Dr. Callahan explains, with considerable "scientific"
detail, his theories of paramagnetism and the round towers of Ireland, the
"real" meanings of Egyptian hieroglyphics and of the pyramids, the
relationship between cathedral towers and the antennae of insects, and how
he "proved" that particles moving faster than the speed of light (tachyons)
actually exist, using only an "electrometer" and a Benjamin ficus tree.
Furthermore, he explains how ancient Egyptian priests levitated people,
lists the requirements for levitation and for levitating a person or object,
and explains how levitation is directly related to paramagnetism.

This book is quite entertaining and, at a cost of only $16.00, is certainly
worth what amounts to the price of a couple of movie tickets.

And the good olde solid scientific method [controlled trialing, measurement,
replication] appears to be resolving the confusion  : This 9-rock amendments
test series using rock dusts ranging in paramagnetism from under 300x10-6
cgs units to over 7000x10-6 cgs has confirmed my conclusions - a few small
secrets - regarding the actual drivers of rock dust effects which were first
intimated in some of my 1995/6 field experiments at production level.


David Menne : http://www.plantsfood.com

"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we
created them" - Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

"Only the small secrets need to be protected. The big ones are kept secret
by public incredulity" - Marshall McLuhan (1911-1980)

.

From - Sat Nov 30 19:41:34 2002
X-UIDL: 322733535
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A7D53480038; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 14:56:05 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A7DFB196001C; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 14:56:15 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id XT8TQSV6; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 14:56:01 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 3877 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sat, 30 Nov 2002 14:56:35 -0500
Received: from 152.163.225.104 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 14:56:35 -0500
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-r08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id
          d.c.368644c (25914) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sat, 30 Nov
          2002 14:56:01 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="part1_c.368644c.2b1a71d1_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows AU sub 10503
Message-ID:  <c.368644c.2b1a71d1@aol.com>
Date:         Sat, 30 Nov 2002 14:56:01 EST
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Paramagnetic Rock Dusts
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322733535
Status: U

--part1_c.368644c.2b1a71d1_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi David -

Can you let us know when the research you described in your recent e-mail
about paramagnetism is published?  What journal?  Or even better, can you
have the authors send a copy of the paper to me?

Solid scientific experiments need to be performed on paramagnetism, and I am
very pleased to see the experiment that you describe.

At Soil Foodweb Inc. we did our own, not-published research on paramagnetism,
where we took rock that measured high on the paramagnetic scale using the
PCSM, and rock that did not measure high paramagnetism, but which had similar
mineral content - both basalts from the Columbia River basin.

Since the idea is that it is energy that paramagnetic rocks are supposed to
impart, we wrapped the rocks in plastic bags to prevent the mineral
difference from being important.  We placed the plastic wrapped rock in the
soil in pots.  No one knew which rocks were in which pots, except for me, and
from that point I was not further involved in any aspect of maintaining the
experiment.  Eight to ten radish seeds were planted in each pot.  There was
no difference in any discernable measure between the growth of the plants in
paramagnetic and not-paramagnetic rock treatments.

But that was only one instance where paramagnetism was clearly not
influencing anything.  Since the results were negative, since it was only one
trial with soil that was not high in microbes to begin, I did not publish.
But I didn't persue paramagnetism any further, waiting for someone to do some
work that would explain when paramagnetism worked, and when it did not.

Your results would strongly suggest that it is particular nutrients released
from the rocks that are more important than the paramagnetism.  The high
paramagnetic rock, of a different mineral content than the less paramagnetic
rock, did not impart their high paramagnetic energy to the plants, or
microbes, or anything else.  I would interpret your results to mean that the
less-paramagnetic rock released the mineral nutrients that the plants needed
in order to grow larger and have more biomass.

Would you also interpret these results in that light?

Still, it would be good to see all the methods used in order to fully judge
for ourselves.   I await the published paper, but it certainly seems you have
solid data to help us understand paramagnetism.


Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
www.soilfoodweb.com

--part1_c.368644c.2b1a71d1_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">Hi David - <BR>
<BR>
Can you let us know when the research you described in your recent e-mail about paramagnetism is published?&nbsp; What journal?&nbsp; Or even better, can you have the authors send a copy of the paper to me?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Solid scientific experiments need to be performed on paramagnetism, and I am very pleased to see the experiment that you describe.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
At Soil Foodweb Inc. we did our own, not-published research on paramagnetism, where we took rock that measured high on the paramagnetic scale using the PCSM, and rock that did not measure high paramagnetism, but which had similar mineral content - both basalts from the Columbia River basin. <BR>
<BR>
Since the idea is that it is energy that paramagnetic rocks are supposed to impart, we wrapped the rocks in plastic bags to prevent the mineral difference from being important.&nbsp; We placed the plastic wrapped rock in the soil in pots.&nbsp; No one knew which rocks were in which pots, except for me, and from that point I was not further involved in any aspect of maintaining the experiment.&nbsp; Eight to ten radish seeds were planted in each pot.&nbsp; There was no difference in any discernable measure between the growth of the plants in paramagnetic and not-paramagnetic rock treatments.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
But that was only one instance where paramagnetism was clearly not influencing anything.&nbsp; Since the results were negative, since it was only one trial with soil that was not high in microbes to begin, I did not publish.&nbsp; But I didn't persue paramagnetism any further, waiting for someone to do some work that would explain when paramagnetism worked, and when it did not.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Your results would strongly suggest that it is particular nutrients released from the rocks that are more important than the paramagnetism.&nbsp; The high paramagnetic rock, of a different mineral content than the less paramagnetic rock, did not impart their high paramagnetic energy to the plants, or microbes, or anything else.&nbsp; I would interpret your results to mean that the less-paramagnetic rock released the mineral nutrients that the plants needed in order to grow larger and have more biomass.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Would you also interpret these results in that light?<BR>
<BR>
Still, it would be good to see all the methods used in order to fully judge for ourselves.&nbsp;&nbsp; I await the published paper, but it certainly seems you have solid data to help us understand paramagnetism.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Elaine Ingham<BR>
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.<BR>
www.soilfoodweb.com</FONT></HTML>

--part1_c.368644c.2b1a71d1_boundary--

.

From - Sat Nov 30 20:51:31 2002
X-UIDL: 322733554
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A81C52300F6; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 20:38:36 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A829DD440064; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 20:38:49 -0500
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id XT8TQYG4; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 20:38:17 -0500
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Sat Nov 30 20:38:44 2002 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 4022 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sat, 30 Nov 2002 20:38:31 -0500
Received: from 205.188.157.37 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 20:38:31 -0500
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id
          d.1e.36d4ba2 (4418) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sat, 30 Nov
          2002 20:38:00 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="part1_1e.36d4ba2.2b1ac1f7_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows AU sub 10503
Message-ID:  <1e.36d4ba2.2b1ac1f7@aol.com>
Date:         Sat, 30 Nov 2002 20:37:59 EST
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re:
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322733554
Status: U

--part1_1e.36d4ba2.2b1ac1f7_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

So, when Monsanto attempts to patent these bacteria, fungi, protozoa or
nematodes, we have to be there saying "we already have them in culture; we
have already worked with them, previous use disallows the patent".

We're already encountering this "claim it as mine" attitude with respect to
compost tea.  There's someone trying to patent the general approach to making
aerobic compost tea - can you believe it?  It's only been around for oh, 2000
years, and someone is trying to patent it's production!

Please join me in sending all the literature older than January of 2001 about
aerobic compost tea to the patent office, so they know about the fact that
aerobic compost tea has been around for more than the last year or two.  If
you know any good patent lawyers who would take this on, please let me know!

Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
www.soilfoodweb.com

--part1_1e.36d4ba2.2b1ac1f7_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">So, when Monsanto attempts to patent these bacteria, fungi, protozoa or nematodes, we have to be there saying "we already have them in culture; we have already worked with them, previous use disallows the patent".<BR>
<BR>
We're already encountering this "claim it as mine" attitude with respect to compost tea.&nbsp; There's someone trying to patent the general approach to making aerobic compost tea - can you believe it?&nbsp; It's only been around for oh, 2000 years, and someone is trying to patent it's production!<BR>
<BR>
Please join me in sending all the literature older than January of 2001 about aerobic compost tea to the patent office, so they know about the fact that aerobic compost tea has been around for more than the last year or two.&nbsp; If you know any good patent lawyers who would take this on, please let me know!<BR>
<BR>
Elaine Ingham<BR>
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.<BR>
www.soilfoodweb.com</FONT></HTML>

--part1_1e.36d4ba2.2b1ac1f7_boundary--

.

From - Sun Dec 01 22:14:40 2002
X-UIDL: 322733598
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 10000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id ADD918300F2; Sun, 01 Dec 2002 22:04:57 -0500
Received: from intrex.net [209.42.230.14] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id ADE894A3009C; Sun, 01 Dec 2002 22:05:12 -0500
Message-ID: <3DEAFA2B.8090106@intrex.net>
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 22:14:03 -0800
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
Organization: http://market-farming.com  --  Venaura Farm
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To:  lfl@intrex.net
Subject: Further Reading
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
 boundary="------------020708030609010809040504"
X-Declude-Sender: lfl@intrex.net [209.42.230.14]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. Whitelisted
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
X-UIDL: 322733598
Status: U

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------020708030609010809040504
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


<http://soils.usda.gov/sqi/SoilBiology/further_reading.htm>

-- 
L.F.London
lfl@intrex.net
http://market-farming.com
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/pcwiki/index.php/london

--------------020708030609010809040504
Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252;
 name="soils.usda.gov/sqi/SoilBiology/further_reading.htm"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline;
 filename="soils.usda.gov/sqi/SoilBiology/further_reading.htm"
Content-Base: "http://soils.usda.gov/sqi/SoilBiology/
	further_reading.htm"
Content-Location: "http://soils.usda.gov/sqi/SoilBiology/
	further_reading.htm"

<html>

<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=windows-1252">
<title>Further Reading</title>
<meta name="GENERATOR" content="Microsoft FrontPage 4.0">
<meta name="ProgId" content="FrontPage.Editor.Document">
<meta name="Microsoft Border" content="t">
</head>

<body stylesrc="../index.html" bgcolor="FFFFFF" text="#000000"><!--msnavigation--><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tr><td bgcolor="FFFFFF">

<table border="0" width="726" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" height="59">
  <tr>
    <td align="left" width="126">
      <p align="right"><img border="0" src="../_borders/raindrop.gif" width="72" height="58"></td>
    <td width="596" height="19">
      <p><map name="FPMap6_I1">
      <area href="../index.html" shape="rect" coords="1, 2, 346, 18">
      <area href="http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/" shape="rect" coords="3, 16, 346, 34">
      <area href="http://www.usda.gov/" shape="rect" coords="2, 31, 346, 48"></map>
      <img border="0" src="../_borders/USDANRCS3.gif" usemap="#FPMap6_I1" width="347" height="49"><img border="0" src="../_borders/strips_top.gif" width="596" height="16"></p>
    </td>
  </tr>
</table>

</td></tr><!--msnavigation--></table><!--msnavigation--><table dir="ltr" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tr><!--msnavigation--><td valign="top">


<h3 align="center"><strong><font color="#800000">
&nbsp;The Soil Biology Primer&nbsp;&nbsp;</font></strong><font size="2">&nbsp;<br>
Return to<a href="../SoilBiology/soil_biology_primer.htm#Contents"> Table of Contents</a></font></h3>
<hr size="4" color="#800000">
<h3 align="center"><a name="top"></a>FURTHER READING
 &nbsp;</h3>
<h4>SOIL ECOLOGY</h4>
<p style="text-indent: -.15in; margin-left: .15in; margin-right: 0in"><font size="2">Coleman, D.C. and D.A. Crossley, Jr.
1996. <em>Fundamentals of Soil Ecology</em>. Academic
Press, Inc., San Diego.</font></p>
<p style="text-indent: -.15in; margin-left: .15in; margin-right: 0in"><font size="2">Collins,
H.P., G.P. Robertson, and M.J.
Klug (eds.)&nbsp; 1993. <em>The Significance and Regulation of Soil Biodiversity</em>.
Kluwer
Academic Publishers, Dordrecht.</font></p>
<p style="text-indent: -.15in; margin-left: .15in; margin-right: 0in"><font size="2">Cook, R.J. and K.J. Baker. 1983.
<em>The
Nature and Practice of Biological Control of Plant Pathogens</em>. American
Phytopathological Society, St. Paul Minnesota.</font></p>
<p style="text-indent: -.15in; margin-left: .15in; margin-right: 0in"><font size="2">Killham, Ken. 1994.
<em>Soil Ecology</em>. Cambridge University Press, Great Britain.</font></p>
<p style="text-indent: -.15in; margin-left: .15in; margin-right: 0in"><font size="2">Richards,
B.N. 1987. <em>The
Microbiology of Terrestrial Ecosystems</em>. John Wiley &amp; Sons, New York.</font></p>
<h4>THE
RHIZOSPHERE</h4>
<p style="text-indent: -.15in; margin-left: .15in; margin-right: 0in"><font size="2">Campbell, R. 1985.
<em>Plant Microbiology. </em>Edward Arnold, London.</font></p>
<p style="text-indent: -.15in; margin-left: .15in; margin-right: 0in"><font size="2">Lynch,
J.M. 1990. <em>The Rhizosphere.</em> John Wiley &amp; Sons, Chichester.</font></p>
<h4>MAJOR GROUPS OF SOIL ORGANISMS</h4>
<p style="text-indent: -.15in; margin-left: .15in; margin-right: 0in"><font size="2">Carroll, George C. and Donald T. Wicklow.
1992. <em>The Fungal Community, 2nd Edition.</em> Marcel
Dekker and Sons, New York.</font></p>
<p style="text-indent: -.15in; margin-left: .15in; margin-right: 0in"><font size="2">Darbyshire,
J.F. (ed.)&nbsp; 1994. <em>Soil Protozoa</em>. CAB
International, Wallingford.</font></p>
<p style="text-indent: -.15in; margin-left: .15in; margin-right: 0in"><font size="2">Dindal, Daniel L. (ed.). 1990.
<em>Soil
Biology Guide. </em>John Wiley &amp; Sons, New York.</font></p>
<p style="text-indent: -.15in; margin-left: .15in; margin-right: 0in"><font size="2">Edwards, C.A. and P. J. Bohlen. 1996.
<em>Biology
and Ecology of Earthworms, 3rd Edition.</em> Chapman &amp; Hall, London.</font></p>
<p style="text-indent: -.15in; margin-left: .15in; margin-right: 0in"><font size="2">Gisebeis, Gerhard and Wilfried Wichard.
1987. <em>Atlas on the Biology of Soil
Arthropods.</em> Springer-Verlag, New York.</font></p>
<p style="text-indent: -.15in; margin-left: .15in; margin-right: 0in"><font size="2">Smith, S.E. and D.J. Read. 1997.
<em>Mycorrhizal
Symbiosis. 2nd edition.</em> Academic Press, San Diego.</font></p>
<p style="text-indent: -.15in; margin-left: .15in; margin-right: 0in"><font size="2">Zuckerman,
B.M., W.F. Mai, and R.A.
Rohde. 1971. <em>Plant Parasitic Nematodes.</em> Academic
Press, New York.</font></p>
<h4>MEASUREMENT</h4>
<p style="text-indent: -.15in; margin-left: .15in; margin-right: 0in"><font size="2">Pankhurst,
C.E., B.M. Doube, and V.V.S.R.
Gupta (eds.)&nbsp; 1997. <em>Biological
Indicators of Soil Health. </em>CAB International, Oxon UK.</font></p>
<p style="text-indent: -.15in; margin-left: .15in; margin-right: 0in"><font size="2">Ritz, K., J. Dighton, and K.E. Giller (eds).
1994. <em>Beyond the Biomass:&nbsp; Compositional and Functional Analysis of Soil Microbial Communities.
</em>John
Wiley &amp; Sons, West Sussex UK.</font></p>
<p style="text-indent: -.15in; margin-left: .15in; margin-right: 0in"><font size="2">Weaver,
R.W. (chair of editorial
committee). 1994. <em>Methods of Soil
Analysis. Part 2. Microbiological and Biochemical Properties.</em> Soil Science
Society of America, Madison, WI.</font></p>

<!--msnavigation--></td></tr><!--msnavigation--></table></body>

</html>

--------------020708030609010809040504--



.

From - Sun Dec 01 22:04:41 2002
X-UIDL: 322733597
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 10000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AA2617700B0; Sun, 01 Dec 2002 21:49:10 -0500
Received: from intrex.net [209.42.230.14] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AA343AC0232; Sun, 01 Dec 2002 21:49:24 -0500
Message-ID: <3DEAF677.8010707@intrex.net>
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 21:58:15 -0800
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
Organization: http://market-farming.com  --  Venaura Farm
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To:  lfl@intrex.net
Subject: Soil Food Web
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
 boundary="------------080507050502080900040006"
X-Declude-Sender: lfl@intrex.net [209.42.230.14]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. Whitelisted
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
X-UIDL: 322733597
Status: U

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------080507050502080900040006
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


<http://soils.usda.gov/sqi/SoilBiology/soil_food_web.htm>

-- 
L.F.London
lfl@intrex.net
http://market-farming.com
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/pcwiki/index.php/london

--------------080507050502080900040006
Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252;
 name="soils.usda.gov/sqi/SoilBiology/soil_food_web.htm"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Content-Disposition: inline;
 filename="soils.usda.gov/sqi/SoilBiology/soil_food_web.htm"
Content-Base: "http://soils.usda.gov/sqi/SoilBiology/
	soil_food_web.htm"
Content-Location: "http://soils.usda.gov/sqi/SoilBiology/
	soil_food_web.htm"

<html>

<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=windows-1252">
<title>Soil Food Web</title>
<meta name="GENERATOR" content="Microsoft FrontPage 5.0">
<meta name="ProgId" content="FrontPage.Editor.Document">
<meta name="Microsoft Border" content="t">
</head>

<body stylesrc="../index.html" bgcolor="FFFFFF" text="#000000"><!--msnavigation--><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tr><td bgcolor="FFFFFF">

<table border="0" width="726" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" height="59">
  <tr>
    <td align="left" width="126">
      <p align="right"><img border="0" src="../_borders/raindrop.gif" width="72" height="58"></td>
    <td width="596" height="19">
      <p><map name="FPMap6_I1">
      <area href="../index.html" shape="rect" coords="1, 2, 346, 18">
      <area href="http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/" shape="rect" coords="3, 16, 346, 34">
      <area href="http://www.usda.gov/" shape="rect" coords="2, 31, 346, 48"></map>
      <img border="0" src="../_borders/USDANRCS3.gif" usemap="#FPMap6_I1" width="347" height="49"><img border="0" src="../_borders/strips_top.gif" width="596" height="16"></p>
    </td>
  </tr>
</table>

</td></tr><!--msnavigation--></table><!--msnavigation--><table dir="ltr" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tr><!--msnavigation--><td valign="top">

<h3 align="center"><strong><font color="#800000">
&nbsp;The Soil Biology Primer&nbsp;&nbsp;</font></strong><font size="2">
&nbsp;<br>
Return to<a href="soil_biology_primer.htm#Contents"> Table of Contents</a></font></h3>

<hr size="4" color="#800000">
<h2 align="center"><a name="top"></a>Chapter 1:&nbsp;&nbsp; THE SOIL FOOD WEB<br>
<font size="2">By Elaine R. Ingham, Oregon State University</font></h2>
<h3>SOIL BIOLOGY AND THE LANDSCAPE</h3>
<p style="margin-right:0in">An incredible diversity of
organisms make up the soil food web. They range in size from the tiniest
one-celled bacteria, algae, fungi, and protozoa, to the more complex nematodes
and micro-arthropods, to the visible earthworms, insects, small vertebrates, and
plants.</p>
<p style="margin-right:0in">As these organisms eat, grow,
and move through the soil, they make it possible to have clean water, clean air,
healthy plants, and moderated water flow.</p>
<p style="margin-right:0in">There are many ways that the
soil food web is an integral part of landscape processes. Soil organisms
decompose organic compounds, including manure, plant
residue, and pesticides, preventing them from entering water and becoming
pollutants. They sequester nitrogen and other nutrients that might otherwise
enter groundwater, and they fix nitrogen from the atmosphere, making it
available to plants. Many organisms enhance soil aggregation and porosity, thus
increasing infiltration and reducing runoff. Soil organisms prey on crop pests
and are food for above-ground animals.&nbsp;</p>
<table border="0">
  <tr>
    <td><a href="ROSEP_LR.jpg">
    <img border="2" src="ROSEP_LR_small.jpg" alt="Click to see sketch of soil organisms living within a soil aggregate" width="150" height="134"></a></td>
  </tr>
  <tr>
    <td><font face="Arial" size="2"><strong>The soil environment.</strong>&nbsp; Organisms
      live in the microscale environments within and between soil particles.
      Differences over short distances in pH, moisture, pore size, and the types
      of food available create a broad range of habitats.&nbsp;<br>
      <em><strong>Credit</strong>: S. Rose and E.T. Elliott</em></font></td>
  </tr>
</table>
<h3>THE FOOD WEB: ORGANISMS AND THEIR INTERACTION</h3>
<p style="margin-right: 0in"><a href="images/A-3.jpg">
<img border="2" src="images/A-3_small.gif" align="left" alt="Click to see a diagram of a simple soil food web" width="150" height="120"></a>The soil food web is the community of organisms living all or part of
their lives in the soil. A food web diagram shows a series of conversions
(represented by arrows) of energy and nutrients as one organism eats another
(see food web diagram).</p>
<p style="margin-right: 0in">All food webs are fueled by the primary producers:&nbsp;
the plants, lichens, moss, photosynthetic bacteria, and algae that use
the sun’s energy to fix carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. Most other soil
organisms get energy and carbon by consuming the organic compounds found in
plants, other organisms, and waste by-products. A few bacteria, called
chemoautotrophs, get energy from nitrogen, sulfur, or iron compounds rather than
carbon compounds or the sun.</p>
<p style="margin-right: 0in"><a href="images/A-2.jpg">
<img border="2" src="images/A-2_small.gif" align="right" alt="Click for a picture of a glossary of soil food web terms" width="114" height="150"></a>As organisms
decompose complex materials, or consume other organisms, nutrients are converted
from one form to another, and are made available to plants and to other soil
organisms. All plants – grass, trees, shrubs, agricultural crops – depend on
the food web for their nutrition.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>
<h3>WHAT DO SOIL ORGANISMS DO?</h3>
<p style="margin-right: 0in"><a href="images/A-4.jpg"><img border="2" src="images/A-4_small.gif" align="left" alt="Click to see a table of the functions of soil organisms" width="88" height="88"></a>Growing and reproducing are the primary activities of all living
organisms. As individual plants and soil organisms work to survive, they depend
on interactions with each other. By-products from growing roots and plant
residue feed soil organisms. In turn, soil organisms support plant health as
they decompose organic matter, cycle nutrients, enhance soil structure, and
control the populations of soil organisms including crop pests. (See table of
functions of soil organisms.)</p>
<h3>ORGANIC MATTER FUELS THE FOOD WEB</h3>
<p style="margin-right: 0in">Soil organic
matter is the storehouse for the energy and nutrients used by plants and other
organisms. Bacteria, fungi, and other soil dwellers transform and release
nutrients from organic matter (see photo).</p>
<table border="0" width="50%">
  <tr>
    <td>
      <p align="center"><a href="M8_Mites_and_Leaf_LR.jpg">
      <img border="2" src="M8_Mites_and_Leaf_LR_small.jpg" align="center" alt="Click for photo of mites chewing a leaf" width="150" height="100"></a></td>
  </tr>
  <tr>
    <td><font face="Arial" size="2">These microshredders, immature oribatid
      mites, skeletonize plant leaves. This starts the nutrient cycling of
      carbon, nitrogen, and other elements.&nbsp;<br>
      Collohmannia<em> sp. <strong>Credit</strong>: Roy A. Norton, College of Environmental
      Science &amp; Forestry, State University of New York</em></font></td>
  </tr>
</table>
<p style="margin-right: 0in">Organic matter
is many different kinds of compounds – some more useful to organisms than
others. In general, soil organic matter is made of roughly equal parts humus and
active organic matter. Active organic matter is the portion available to soil
organisms. Bacteria tend to use simpler organic compounds, such as root exudates
or fresh plant residue. Fungi tend to use more complex compounds, such as
fibrous plant residues, wood and soil humus.</p>
<p style="margin-right: 0in">Intensive
tillage triggers spurts of activity among bacteria and other organisms that
consume organic matter (convert it to CO2),
depleting the active fraction first. Practices that build soil organic matter
(reduced tillage and regular additions of organic material) will raise the
proportion of active organic matter long before increases in total organic
matter can be measured. As soil organic matter levels rise, soil organisms play
a role in its conversion to humus—a relatively stable form of carbon
sequestered in soils for decades or even centuries.</p>
<h3>FOOD
SOURCES FOR SOIL ORGANISMS</h3>
<p style="margin-right: 0in">“Soil
organic matter” includes all the organic substances in or on the soil. Here
are terms used to describe different types of organic matter.</p>
<p style="text-indent: -.25in; margin-left: .25in; margin-right: 0in"><strong>Living organisms:&nbsp;</strong>
Bacteria,
fungi, nematodes, protozoa, earthworms, arthropods, and living roots.</p>
<p style="text-indent: -.25in; margin-left: .25in; margin-right: 0in"><strong>Dead plant material; organic material; detritus;
surface residue:&nbsp; </strong>All these terms refer to
plant, animal, or other organic substances that have recently been added to the
soil and have only begun to show signs of decay. Detritivores are organisms that
feed on such material.</p>
<p style="text-indent: -.25in; margin-left: .25in; margin-right: 0in"><strong>Active fraction organic matter:&nbsp;</strong>
Organic compounds that can be used as food by
microorganisms. The active fraction changes more quickly than total organic
matter in response to management changes.</p>
<p style="text-indent: -.25in; margin-left: .25in; margin-right: 0in"><strong>Labile organic matter:&nbsp;</strong>
Organic
matter that is easily decomposed.</p>
<p style="text-indent: -.25in; margin-left: .25in; margin-right: 0in"><strong>Root exudates:&nbsp;</strong>
Soluble
sugars, amino acids and other compounds secreted by roots.</p>
<p style="text-indent: -.25in; margin-left: .25in; margin-right: 0in"><strong>Particulate organic matter (POM) or Light fraction
(LF) organic matter:&nbsp; </strong>POM
and LF have precise size and weight definitions. They are thought to represent
the active fraction of organic matter which is more difficult to define. Because
POM or LF is larger and lighter than other types of soil organic matter, they
can be separated from soil by size (using a sieve) or by weight (using a
centrifuge).</p>
<p style="text-indent: -.25in; margin-left: .25in; margin-right: 0in"><strong>Lignin:&nbsp;</strong>
A
hard-to-degrade compound that is part of the fibers of older plants. Fungi can
use the carbon ring structures in lignin as food.</p>
<p style="text-indent: -.25in; margin-left: .25in; margin-right: 0in"><strong>Recalcitrant organic matter:&nbsp;
</strong>Organic matter such as humus or lignin-containing
material that few soil organisms can decompose.</p>
<p style="text-indent: -.25in; margin-left: .25in; margin-right: 0in"><strong>Humus or humified organic matter:&nbsp;</strong>
Complex organic compounds that remain after many
organisms have used and transformed the original material. Humus is not readily
decomposed because it is either physically protected inside of aggregates or
chemically too complex to be used by most organisms. Humus is important in
binding tiny soil aggregates, and improves water and nutrient holding capacity.</p>
<table border="1">
  <tr>
    <td>
      <p align="center"><font face="Arial" size="2"><strong>Components of Soil
      Organic Matter</strong></font></td>
  </tr>
  <tr>
    <td><img border="0" src="soil_f1.gif" width="279" height="229"></td>
  </tr>
</table>
<h3>WHERE DO SOIL ORGANISMS LIVE?</h3>
<p style="margin-right: 0in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt"><a href="images/A-6.jpg">
<img border="2" src="images/A-6_small.gif" align="right" alt="Click to see a graph illustrating how soil life decreases with soil depth" width="150" height="130"></a></span>The organisms
of the food web are not uniformly distributed through the soil. Each species and
group exists where they can find appropriate space, nutrients, and moisture.
They occur wherever organic matter occurs – mostly in the top few inches of
soil (see figure), although microbes have been found as deep as 10 miles (16 km)
in oil wells.</p>
<p style="margin-right: 0in">Soil organisms
are concentrated:</p>
<p style="margin-right: 0in"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">Around roots. </strong>The
rhizosphere is the narrow region of soil directly around roots (see photo). It
is teeming with bacteria that feed on sloughed-off plant cells and the proteins
and sugars released by roots. The protozoa and nematodes that graze on bacteria
are also concentrated near roots. Thus, much of the nutrient cycling and disease
suppression needed by plants occurs immediately adjacent to roots.</p>
<table border="0" width="50%">
  <tr>
    <td><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><a href="SST_LR.jpg">
    <img border="2" src="SST_LR_small.jpg" alt="Photo of root tip surrounded by bacteria" width="150" height="153"></a> </strong></td>
  </tr>
  <tr>
    <td><font size="2" face="Arial">Bacteria are abundant around this root tip
      (the rhizosphere) where they decompose the plentiful simple organic
      substances.<br>
      <em><strong>Credit:</strong> No. 53 from </em>Soil Microbiology and Biochemistry Slide
      Set<em>. 1976 J.P. Martin, et al., eds. SSSA, Madison WI.</em></font></td>
  </tr>
</table>
<p style="margin-right: 0in"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">In litter. </strong>Fungi
are common decomposers of plant litter because litter has large amounts of
complex, hard-to-decompose carbon. Fungal hyphae (fine filaments) can “pipe”
nitrogen from the underlying soil to the litter layer. Bacteria cannot transport
nitrogen over distances, giving fungi an advantage in litter decomposition,
particularly when litter is not mixed into the soil profile. However, bacteria
are abundant in the green litter of younger plants which is higher in nitrogen
and simpler carbon compounds than the litter of older plants. Bacteria and fungi
are able to access a larger surface area of plant residue after shredder
organisms such as earthworms, leaf-eating insects, millipedes, and other
arthropods break up the litter into smaller chunks.</p>
<p style="margin-right: 0in"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">On humus.</strong>
Fungi are common here. Much organic matter in the soil has already been
decomposed many times by bacteria and fungi, and/or passed through the guts of
earthworms or arthropods. The resulting humic compounds are complex and have
little available nitrogen. Only fungi make some of the enzymes needed to degrade
the complex compounds in humus.</p>
<p style="margin-right: 0in"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">On the surface of soil
aggregates.</strong><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt">

</span>
Biological activity, in particular that of aerobic bacteria and fungi, is
greater near the surfaces of soil aggregates than within aggregates. Within
large aggregates, processes that do not require oxygen, such as denitrification,
can occur. Many aggregates are actually the fecal pellets of earthworms and
other invertebrates.</p>
<p style="margin-right: 0in"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">In spaces between soil
aggregates. </strong>Those
arthropods and nematodes that cannot burrow through soil move in the pores
between soil aggregates. Organisms that are sensitive to desiccation, such as
protozoa and many nematodes, live in water-filled pores. (See Figure page 1.)</p>
<h3>WHEN ARE THEY ACTIVE?</h3>
<p style="margin-right: 0in"><a href="images/A-7.jpg"><img border="2" src="images/A-7_small.gif" align="right" alt="Click to see a graph illustrating how soil microbial activity peaks during warmer and wetter times of year" width="114" height="88"></a>The activity
of soil organisms follows seasonal patterns, as well as daily patterns. In
temperate systems, the greatest activity occurs in late spring when temperature
and moisture conditions are optimal for growth (see graph). However, certain species are
most active in the winter, others during dry periods, and still others in
flooded conditions.</p>
<p style="margin-right: 0in">Not all
organisms are active at a particular time. Even during periods of high activity,
only a fraction of the organisms are busily eating, respiring, and altering
their environment. The remaining portion are barely active or even dormant.</p>
<p style="margin-right: 0in">Many different
organisms are active at different times, and interact with one another, with
plants, and with the soil. The combined result is a number of beneficial
functions including nutrient cycling, moderated water flow, and pest control.</p>
<h3>THE IMPORTANCE OF THE SOIL FOOD WEB</h3>
<p style="margin-right: 0in">The living component of soil, the food web, is complex and has different
compositions in different ecosystems. Management of croplands, rangelands,
forestlands, and gardens benefits from and affects the food web. The next unit
of the Soil Biology Primer, “The Food Web &amp; Soil Health,” introduces the
relationship of soil biology to agricultural productivity, biodiversity, carbon
sequestration and to air and water quality. The remaining six units of the Soil
Biology Primer describe the major groups of soil organisms: bacteria, fungi,
protozoa, nematodes, arthropods, and earthworms. For more information about the
diversity within each organism group, see the list of readings at the end of
“The Food Web &amp; Soil Health” unit.</p>
<hr size="4" color="#800000">
<p style="margin-right: 0in">Go to the next chapter:&nbsp;<a href="fw&amp;soilhealth.htm">
&quot;The Food Web &amp; Soil Health&quot;</a></p>
<p style="margin-right: 0in">Return to the 
<a href="soil_biology_primer.htm#Contents">Table of Contents</a></p>

<!--msnavigation--></td></tr><!--msnavigation--></table></body>

</html>
--------------080507050502080900040006--



.

From - Sun Dec 01 22:04:40 2002
X-UIDL: 322733596
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 10000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A9ED16400B0; Sun, 01 Dec 2002 21:48:13 -0500
Received: from intrex.net [209.42.230.14] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A9FAA6C80040; Sun, 01 Dec 2002 21:48:26 -0500
Message-ID: <3DEAF63C.7040105@intrex.net>
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 21:57:16 -0800
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
Organization: http://market-farming.com  --  Venaura Farm
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To:  lfl@intrex.net
Subject: ens
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
 boundary="------------020500090703070503000705"
X-Declude-Sender: lfl@intrex.net [209.42.230.14]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. Whitelisted
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
X-UIDL: 322733596
Status: U

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------020500090703070503000705
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


<http://ens-news.com/ens/nov2002/2002-11-29-02.asp>

-- 
L.F.London
lfl@intrex.net
http://market-farming.com
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/pcwiki/index.php/london

--------------020500090703070503000705
Content-Type: text/html;
 name="ens-news.com/ens/nov2002/2002-11-29-02.asp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline;
 filename="ens-news.com/ens/nov2002/2002-11-29-02.asp"
Content-Base: "http://ens-news.com/ens/nov2002/2002-1
	1-29-02.asp"
Content-Location: "http://ens-news.com/ens/nov2002/2002-1
	1-29-02.asp"

<html>
<head>
<title>ens</title>
<meta name=3D"keywords" content=3D"acid rain, activist, agriculture, air,=
 air quality, algae, animal, animal rights, animal welfare, atmosphere, a=
viation, beach, bird, biotechnology, chemical, citizen, citizens, clean, =
climate, climate change, coast, conferences, conservation, contamination,=
 dam, demonstration, desert, desertification, dioxin, disaster, dolphin, =
drinking water, earth, eco, ecoisp, ecology, ecosystem, eco-travel, ecoto=
urism, elephant, emission, emissions, endangered, ens, ENS, energy, envir=
onment, environmental, environmental groups, environmental lawsuit, envir=
onmental legislation, environmental media, environmental news, environmen=
tal newswire, environmental politics, environmental science, environmenta=
l treaties, erosion, fire, fish, flood, food, forest, fuel, fuel cell, ga=
s, genetically engineered organisms, genetically, global, global warming,=
 green, greenhouse gas, habitat, healing, health, herbicide, human rights=
, hurricane, industrial, Kyoto, lakes, lead, lion, logging, mangrove, NGO=
, network, news, newswire, nitrate, nongovernmental organization, non-gov=
ernmental organization, nuclear, oceans, oil, old-growth, outdoors, ozone=
, ozone layer, park, pesticide, planet, plant, plutonium, poisons, pollut=
ion, porpoise, power, protect, protest, protesters, radioactive, rainfore=
st, recycling, renewable, rhino, river, rivers, salmon, shark, smog, sola=
r, species, spill, sustainable, sustainable development, tiger, timber, t=
oxics, transportation, treatment, UN, UNEP, uranium, water, water quality=
, watershed, whale, whaling, wilderness, wildlife, wind, wood, world">
<meta name=3D"description" content=3D"Environment News Service">

</head>
<body bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" link=3D"#000000" vlink=3D"#330099" alink=3D"#12=
3C2A">=20
<!--header logo table start-->
<table border=3D"1" bordercolor=3D"#333399" bgcolor=3D"#ffffff"
cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"2" width=3D"100%">
<tr>
<td align=3D"left" bgcolor=3D"#ffffff">=20
<center><a href=3D"http://www.ecoisp.com"><img
src=3D"http://ens-news.com/images/ecologo.gif" border=3D"0" alt=3D"Save t=
he
Earth while you Surf! CLICK HERE"></a></center>
</td>
<td width=3D"620" align=3D"right" bgcolor=3D"#ffffff">
<a href=3D"http://ens-news.com/index.asp"><img
src=3D"http://ens-news.com/images/enslogo.jpg" width=3D"540" height=3D"57=
"
border=3D"0" alt=3D"ENS Home"></td>
</tr></table>
<!--header logo table end-->
<table border=3D"0" bordercolor=3D"#333399" bgcolor=3D"#ffffff"
cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" width=3D"100%">
<tr>
<td align=3D"left" valign=3D"top" bgcolor=3D"#333399">
<font size=3D"1" face=3D"verdana" color=3D"#FDF8E0"><b>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<a href=3D"http://ens-news.com"><font
color=3D"#FDF8E0">Home</font></a>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<a href=3D"http://ens-news.com/about.asp"><font color=3D"#FDF8E0">About
ENS</font></a>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<a href=3D"http://ens-news.com/ens/youthdesk/youthdeskwelcome.asp"><font
color=3D"#FDF8E0">Youth
Desk</font></a>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<a href=3D"mailto:news@ens-news.com"><font color=3D"#FDF8E0">Email The
Editor</font></a>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<a href=3D"http://ens-news.com/newsindex.asp"><font color=3D"#FDF8E0">New=
s
Index</font></a>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<a href=3D"http://ens-news.com/events.asp"><font color=3D"#FDF8E0">Events=

Calendar</font></a>
</b></font>
<td align=3D"right" bgcolor=3D"#333399">
<!-- BEGIN DATE SCRIPT -->

<script language=3D"JavaScript">
/*---------------
This JavaScript was written by Joey Mornin
---------------*/
// Start Script

// The array for the month names
var montharray =3D new Array(11)
montharray[0] =3D "January";montharray[1] =3D "February";montharray[2] =3D=

"March";montharray[3] =3D "April";montharray[4] =3D "May";montharray[5] =3D=

"June";montharray[6] =3D "July";montharray[7] =3D "August";montharray[8] =
=3D
"September";montharray[9] =3D "October";montharray[10] =3D
"November";montharray[11] =3D "December";
//First, declare the variables
var time =3D new Date()
var monthnum =3D time.getMonth()
var monthname =3D montharray[monthnum]
var year =3D time.getFullYear()
var day =3D time.getDate()
// Font Properties
var font_size =3D "1" // Font Size
var font_color =3D "#FDF8E0" // Font Color
var font_family =3D "Verdana, Arial, MS Sans Serif" // Font Family
// Display the date
document.write("<font size=3D'" + font_size + "' color=3D'" + font_color =
+
"' face=3D'" + font_family + "'>")
document.write(monthname + " " + day + ", " + year + "</font>") =20
// End Script
</script><font size=3D"1">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</font>

<!-- END DATE SCRIPT -->



</td></tr></table>

<!--main table start-->
<table border=3D"0" bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"=
0"
width=3D"100%">
<tr>
<!--start left column-->
<td bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" valign=3D"top" width=3D"160">
<font size=3D"1"><br></font>
<!--left column content-->
<table width=3D"160" height=3D"118" border=3D"0" bgcolor=3D"#333399"
cellspacing=3D"2" cellpadding=3D"0">
<tr>
<td align=3D"center" bgcolor=3D"#333399">=20
<font face=3D"Verdana" size=3D"2" color=3D"#ffffff"><b>Search ENS
News</b></font></td></tr>
<tr>
<td align=3D"center" bgcolor=3D"#FDF8E0">
<FORM METHOD=3Dget ACTION=3D"http://ens-news.com/search/search.asp" id=3D=
form1
name=3Dform1>
<font size=3D"1" FACE=3D"verdana"><b>Type Search Term,<br>Hit Enter</b>
<br><input NAME=3D"querytext" SIZE=3D"10" MAXLENGTH=3D"50"><br><br></font=
>
<a href=3D"http://ens-news.com/researchhelp.asp"><img
src=3D"http://ens-news.com/images/researchbutton.gif" border=3D"0"></a>
</td></tr></FORM>
</table>
<br>
<!--worldscan-->
<table width=3D"160" bgcolor=3D"#FDF8E0" cellpadding=3D"2">
<tr>
<td valign=3D"top" width=3D"160" bgcolor=3D"#333399">
<center><b><font face=3D"Verdana" size=3D"2"
color=3D"#ffffff">&nbsp;WorldScan</font></b></center>
</td></tr>

<tr>
<td valign=3D"top" width=3D"160" bgcolor=3D"#FDF8E0">
<font size=3D"1" face=3D"Verdana" color=3D"#000000">
<b>=B7 <a
href=3D"http://ens-news.com/ens/nov2002/2002-11-25-19.asp#anchor1">RUSSIA=
<br>
Anti-Nuclear Groups Under Close Scrutiny
</a></b>

<br><br>

<b>=B7 <a
href=3D"http://ens-news.com/ens/nov2002/2002-11-25-19.asp#anchor2">GERMAN=
Y<br>
IFAW Challenges Airbus Factory Planned for Wetland
</a></b>

<br><br>

<b>=B7 <a
href=3D"http://ens-news.com/ens/nov2002/2002-11-25-19.asp#anchor3">CANADA=
<br>
New Poll Shows Majority Support Kyoto Protocol

</a></b>

<br><br>

<b>=B7 <a
href=3D"http://ens-news.com/ens/nov2002/2002-11-25-19.asp#anchor4">CANADA=
<br>
Oyster Disease Spreads Across the Maritimes
</a></b>

<br><br>

<b>=B7 <a
href=3D"http://ens-news.com/ens/nov2002/2002-11-25-19.asp#anchor5">AUSTRA=
LIA<br>
Nuclear Probe Combats Acid Mine Waste, Salinity=20


</a></b>


<br><br>

<b>=B7 <a
href=3D"http://ens-news.com/ens/nov2002/2002-11-25-19.asp#anchor6">AUSTRA=
LIA<br>
New Possum Species Found


</a></b>

<br><br>

<b>=B7 <a
href=3D"http://ens-news.com/ens/nov2002/2002-11-25-19.asp#anchor7">BELIZE=
<br>
Protection Extended to Nassau Grouper</a>

</td>
</tr></table>
<!--worldscan-->


<br>
<!-- HTML to Copy Starts Here -->

<!--Note: For correct presentation of the form, leave HTML formatted *as
is*. -->

<TABLE WIDTH=3D"160" CELLPADDING=3D0 CELLSPACING=3D0 BORDER=3D1
bordercolor=3D"#333399" bgcolor=3D"#FDF8E0">
<FORM ACTION=3D"http://www.email-publisher.com/survey/" METHOD=3D"POST"
TARGET=3D"New_Window" id=3Dform2 name=3Dform2>
<INPUT TYPE=3D"hidden" NAME=3D"lists"
VALUE=3D"ens@topica.email-publisher.com">
<TR>
<TD align=3D"center" width=3D"160">
<font size=3D"2" face=3D"verdana" color=3D"#990033"><B>Subscribe to
ENS</B></font>
<font size=3D"1" face=3D"verdana,sans-serif"><br>Enter your email to rece=
ive
news Today!<br>
<input type=3D"text" size=3D"10" name=3D"email" value=3D"email"><br>
<INPUT TYPE=3D"radio" NAME=3D"type" VALUE=3D"HTML">HTML
<INPUT TYPE=3D"radio" NAME=3D"type" VALUE=3D"TEXT">Text
<INPUT TYPE=3D"radio" NAME=3D"type" VALUE=3D"AOL">AOL
<br><input type=3D"submit" value=3D" Join "><br><br></font>
</TD></TR>
</FORM>
</TABLE>
<!-- HTML Ends Here -->

</td>
<!--end left column content-->

<!--MIDDLE COLUMN, Daily News Begins-->
<td bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" align=3D"left" valign=3D"top">

<!--cellpadding table start-->
<table width=3D"100%" bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" cellpadding=3D"10">
<tr>
<td width=3D"100%" bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" align=3D"left" valign=3D"top">

	<table width=3D"100%" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" border=3D"0">
	<tr>
	<td align=3D"left" valign=3D"top">
=09
<!--middle content start / end tophtml-->





<title>Soil's Tiniest Organisms Could Solve Huge Problems</title>

<P><B><font size=3D"+1">Soil's Tiniest Organisms Could Solve Huge Problem=
s</font></b>
<p>


<b>NAIROBI, Kenya</b>, November 29, 2002 (ENS) - There is a wealth of new=
 species under our feet awaiting discovery, especially in the still unkno=
wn portions of the tropics, which represents "a huge new genetic resource=
," the top United Nations environmental agency said today. Amoebas, proto=
zoa, netatodes, mites, termits, ants, earthworms. Life forms that inhabit=
 the soil are the least known of all life forms on Earth, and scientists =
are discovering that they can profoundly affect planetary patterns.
<p>
Calling it "the largest source of untapped life left on Earth," the UN En=
vironment Programme (UNEP) has announced a new $26 million project to und=
erstand and utilize the life forms underground. It is one of the more "un=
usual, curious but absolutely vital projects UNEP has undertaken," said t=
he agency's executive director Klaus Toepfer as he announced the project =
today.
<p>
<IMG SRC=3D"../pics25/soilscientists.jpg" ALIGN=3Dright HSPACE=3D2 VSPACE=
=3D2 ALT=3D"scientists" WIDTH=3D280 HEIGHT=3D210><H5>Mark Kinney and Conr=
ad Field construct a soil profile on native lands near Homer, Alaska. <sm=
all>(Photo courtesy <a href=3D"http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/" target=3D"_blan=
k">USDA Natural Resources Conservation Service</a>)</small></H5>
In the hope that this "genetic treasure trove" will yield new drugs, anti=
biotics, and industrial products, the project will initially target "belo=
w ground biodiversity" in seven tropical countries - Brazil, Mexico, Cote=
 d'Ivoire, Uganda, Kenya, Indonesia and India. These countries were chose=
n for study are those thought to have the richest below ground biodiversi=
ty.
 <p>
Backed with $9 million funding from the World Bank Group's Global Environ=
ment Facility (GEF) and support from other donors such as the Rockefeller=
 Foundation, the Conservation and Sustainable Management of Below-Ground =
Biodiversity project will catalog and classify "the life forms below grou=
nd" said Ahmed Djoghlaf, head of the UNEP/GEF Division, based at UNEP hea=
dquarters in Nairobi.
<p>
One gram of tropical forest soil may contain up to 40,000 individual bact=
erial species, the agency said today, many of which have never been descr=
ibed.=20
<p>
These miniscule life forms can be as tiny as one-tenth of a millimetre (1=
00 micron). The smallest amoebas are even less than 10 micron in size.=20
<p>
"There is an urgent need to assess, classify and record the life forms be=
low ground," Djoghlaf said.=20
<p>
<IMG SRC=3D"../pics25/mites.jpg" ALIGN=3Dleft HSPACE=3D2 VSPACE=3D2 ALT=3D=
"mites" WIDTH=3D248 HEIGHT=3D165><H5>The 200 species of mites in this mic=
roscope view were extracted from one square foot of the top two inches of=
 forest litter and soil. Mites play a role in soil nutrient release.
<small>(Photo by Val Behan-Pelletier, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada co=
urtesy <a href=3D"http://www.usda.gov" target=3D"_blank">USDA</a>)</small=
></H5>
Just as increasing intensification of agriculture and clearing of forests=
 for farmland have taken their toll on wild animals and plants, they plac=
e the microscopic world of underground bacteria and fungi at risk of exti=
nction and decline in the abundance and numbers of species.
<p>
UNEP Executive Director Klaus Toepfer said, "The life forms living just b=
elow our feet are the most understudied organisms on the planet. When peo=
ple think of where new species might be found, they tend to think of the =
rainforests, mangrove swamps or place like mountain peaks, not millimetre=
s below their toes."
<p>
Toepfer said researchers are now realizing that the world's soils, especi=
ally topical soils, are teeming with life. They "harbor more undescribed =
species than dwell on the Earth's surface," he said.
<p>
Expressing delight at UNEP's involvement in "this pioneering work." Toepf=
er said, "Harvesting the secrets of this understudied realm promises huge=
 benefits and improved knowledge towards the goal of delivering sustainab=
le development, towards eradicating poverty."=20
<p>
Bacteria and fungi in the soil can clean drinking water sources. They hel=
p eliminate pollutants and germs from groundwater as it percolates throug=
h the soil to reservoirs, boreholes and other freshwaters sources.
<p>
<IMG SRC=3D"../pics25/nematodefem.jpg" ALIGN=3Dright HSPACE=3D2 VSPACE=3D=
2 ALT=3D"nematode" WIDTH=3D75 HEIGHT=3D115><H5>Female nematode  <small>(P=
hoto courtesy USDA Agricultural Research Service</small></H5>
Organisms living in the soil also "play a key role in the release of carb=
on dioxide, methane and other greenhouse gases from the land into the atm=
osphere," scientists associated with the project said as part of the UNEP=
 statement today.=20
<p>

Understanding and unraveling the role of these microscopic creatures in t=
he carbon cycle may help the land absorb more greenhouse gases to help co=
ol the planet.
<p>
Soil-dwelling beneficial life forms may also play a role in reducing crop=
, livestock and human diseases, UNEP said today, as they attack and neutr=
alize plant, animal and human pests and pathogens.=20
<p>
Earthworms, termites and other soil burrowing organisms influence the amo=
unt of rainwater soils can absorb. Soils depleted in such organisms are m=
ore prone to drought and run-off, which in turn increases the risk of flo=
oding and erosion with consequences for river water and coral reefs.
<p>
<IMG SRC=3D"../pics25/cocoons.jpg" ALIGN=3Dleft HSPACE=3D2 VSPACE=3D2 ALT=
=3D"cocoons" WIDTH=3D250 HEIGHT=3D170><H5>Earthworm cocoons <small>(Photo=
 by Clive A. Edwards, The Ohio State University, Columbus published in th=
e USDA's <a href=3D"http://soils.usda.gov/sqi/soil_biology_primer.htm" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">Soil Biology Primer</a>)</small></H5>
"We may be losing many important and useful species from the world's soil=
s without even knowing it," warned Djoghlaf.
<p>
The project is coordinated by Mike Swift, director of the Nairobi based T=
ropical Soil Biology and Fertility Institute of the International Center =
for Tropical Agriculture (CIAT), one of the research centers in the CGIAR=
 agricultural network.
<p>
The Consultative Group on International Agricultural Research (CGIAR), an=
 association of public and private members supporting a system of 16 Futu=
re Harvest Centers, works in more than 100 countries, mobilizing the "cut=
ting-edge science" that CGIAR says aims to reduce hunger and poverty, imp=
rove human nutrition and health, and protect the environment.=20
<p>
Increasingly, bioengineering and genetic modification of crops underpins =
CGIAR's approach to those issues. Still, CIAT has other offerings, among =
them a new climate database tool based on 20 years of weather data. The n=
ewly published CD-ROM version 1 of MarkSimTM generates Simulated Weather =
Data for Crop Modeling and Risk Assessment.=20
<p>
<b>The Below-Ground Biodiversity Project Guide to
"Mini Beasts, Wiggle Worms and Fellow Soil Dwellers"</b>
<p>
Over 4,000 bacteria and related organisms have been described by science,=
 an unknown number of which are soil dwelling. It is estimated that in on=
e gram of forest soil there are up to 40,000 individual bacterial species=
 many of which have never been described.
<p>
It is thought that only five percent of the world's living fungi have bee=
n described. Of the 72,000 described species, up to 35,000 could be class=
ed as soil living.
<p>
Protozoa include amoebas and flagellates. Some 1,900 soil-living protozoa=
 have been described, which may be only 10 percent of the species alive.
<p>
Some 15,000 individual nematode species have been described. It is estima=
ted that there may be more than be as many as 100,000 species.
<p>
The 45,000 described species of spider-like invertebrates known as mites =
 are thought to represent just five percent of the total.
<p>
There are numerous groups of soil-dwelling insects, including termites. M=
ore than 2,000 termite species have been described.
<p>
Nearly 9,000 ant species have been described.
<p>
Over 3,600 earthworms have been described, and scientists say double this=
 number may exist in the wild.
<p>
Most protozoa eat bacteria, says Elaine Ingham of Oregon State University=
, but one group of amoebae eat fungi, the vampyrellids that suck the life=
 out of their prey.
<p>
"The perfectly round holes drilled through the fungal cell wall, much lik=
e the purported puncture marks on the neck of a vampire=92s victim, are e=
vidence of the presence of vampyrellid amoebae," says Ingham. "The amoeba=
e attach to the surface of fungal hyphae and generate enzymes that eat th=
rough the fungal cell wall. The amoeba then sucks dry or engulfs the cyto=
plasm inside the fungal cell before moving on to its next victim."
<p>
Pictures, facts and figures on soil biology and below ground biodiversity=
 are online at the website of the U.S. Department of Agriculture Natural =
Resources Conservation Service's Soil Quality Institute, UNEP recommends.=
 Find it <a href=3D"http://soils.usda.gov/sqi/SoilBiology/soil_biology_pr=
imer.htm#Contents" target=3D"_blank">here</a>.
<p>
The "Soil Biology Primer" edited by by A.J. Tugel, and A.M. Lewandowski t=
he source of the photos in this article, is online at: <a href=3D"http://=
soils.usda.gov/sqi/soil_biology_primer.htm" target=3D"_blank">http://soil=
s.usda.gov/sqi/soil_biology_primer.htm</a> =20


<!--middle content end / begin bottomhtml-->

</td></tr>
</table>=20
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<!--cellpadding table end-->

</td>
<!-- end middle content table-->

<!--start right column-->
<td bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" valign=3D"top" width=3D"160">
<font size=3D"1"><br></font>
<!-- start right cellpadding table -->
<!--add news-->
<table width=3D"160" height=3D"118" border=3D"0" bgcolor=3D"#333399" cell=
spacing=3D"2" cellpadding=3D"0">
<tr>
<td align=3D"center" bgcolor=3D"#333399">=20
<font face=3D"Verdana" size=3D"2" color=3D"#ffffff"><b>News You Can Use</=
b></font></td></tr>
<tr>
<td align=3D"center" bgcolor=3D"#FDF8E0">
<font size=3D"1" face=3D"verdana" color=3D"#000000">
Enliven your website or paper with ENS News.
<br><br><center><b>Daily headlines FREE!</b><br><br>
<A href=3D"mailto:editor@ens-news.com"><font color=3D"#990033"><b>Contact=
 Us</b></font></a> for details.</A><br>&nbsp;</font></td></tr></table>
<!--add news-->
<br>
<!--ameriscan-->
<table width=3D"160" bgcolor=3D"#FDF8E0" cellpadding=3D"2">
<tr>
<td valign=3D"top" width=3D"160" bgcolor=3D"#333399">
<center><b><font face=3D"Verdana" size=3D"2" color=3D"#ffffff">&nbsp;Amer=
iScan</font></b></center>
</td></tr>
<tr>
<td valign=3D"top" width=3D"160" bgcolor=3D"#FDF8E0">
<font size=3D"1" face=3D"Verdana" color=3D"#000000">

<b>=B7 <a href=3D"http://ens-news.com/ens/nov2002/2002-11-27-09.asp#ancho=
r1">
<font color=3D"#000000">Bush Pardons Turkeys in 55 Year Tradition</font><=
/a></b>

<br><br>

<b>=B7 <a href=3D"http://ens-news.com/ens/nov2002/2002-11-27-09.asp#ancho=
r2">
<font color=3D"#000000">Green Group Offers Tips for Eco-Thanksgiving</fon=
t></a></b>

<br><br>

<b>=B7 <a href=3D"http://ens-news.com/ens/nov2002/2002-11-27-09.asp#ancho=
r3">
<font color=3D"#000000">Turkey Dinners Can Carry Hidden Costs</font></a><=
/b>

<br><br>

<b>=B7 <a href=3D"http://ens-news.com/ens/nov2002/2002-11-27-09.asp#ancho=
r4">
<font color=3D"#000000">Eating Organic Offers a Variety of Benefits</font=
></a></b>

<br><br>

<b>=B7 <a href=3D"http://ens-news.com/ens/nov2002/2002-11-27-09.asp#ancho=
r5">
<font color=3D"#000000">Trader Joe's Phases Out Engineered Foods</font></=
a></b>

<br><br>

<b>=B7 <a href=3D"http://ens-news.com/ens/nov2002/2002-11-27-09.asp#ancho=
r6">
<font color=3D"#000000">Whole Foods in Los Angeles Goes Solar</font></a><=
/b>

<br><br>

<b>=B7 <a href=3D"http://ens-news.com/ens/nov2002/2002-11-27-09.asp#ancho=
r7">
<font color=3D"#000000">Start The Season With Pennies for the Planet</fon=
t></a></b>

<br><br>

<b>=B7 <a href=3D"http://ens-news.com/ens/nov2002/2002-11-27-09.asp#ancho=
r8">
<font color=3D"#000000">Fur Free Friday Will Follow Thanksgiving</font></=
a></b>


</td>
</tr></table>

<!--<br>
<table width=3D"160" bgcolor=3D"#333399" border=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"2" c=
ellpadding=3D"2">
<tr>
<td align=3D"left" bgcolor=3D"#FDF8E0">=20
<center><font face=3D"Verdana" size=3D"2"><b><br>advertisment<br><br></b>=
</center>
</td></tr>
</table>-->

<br>

<br>

<!--end right cellpadding table-->

</td>
<!--end right column-->

</tr></table>
<!--end main table-->
<br><center>
<font face=3D"Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=3D"2" color=3D"=
black">Copyright Environment News Service (ENS) 2002. All Rights Reserved=
=2E</font>
</center>
</body>
</html>
--------------020500090703070503000705--



.

From - Sun Dec 01 22:04:40 2002
X-UIDL: 322733596
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 10000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A9ED16400B0; Sun, 01 Dec 2002 21:48:13 -0500
Received: from intrex.net [209.42.230.14] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A9FAA6C80040; Sun, 01 Dec 2002 21:48:26 -0500
Message-ID: <3DEAF63C.7040105@intrex.net>
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 21:57:16 -0800
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
Organization: http://market-farming.com  --  Venaura Farm
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To:  lfl@intrex.net
Subject: ens
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
 boundary="------------020500090703070503000705"
X-Declude-Sender: lfl@intrex.net [209.42.230.14]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. Whitelisted
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
X-UIDL: 322733596
Status: U

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------020500090703070503000705
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


<http://ens-news.com/ens/nov2002/2002-11-29-02.asp>

-- 
L.F.London
lfl@intrex.net
http://market-farming.com
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/pcwiki/index.php/london

--------------020500090703070503000705
Content-Type: text/html;
 name="ens-news.com/ens/nov2002/2002-11-29-02.asp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline;
 filename="ens-news.com/ens/nov2002/2002-11-29-02.asp"
Content-Base: "http://ens-news.com/ens/nov2002/2002-1
	1-29-02.asp"
Content-Location: "http://ens-news.com/ens/nov2002/2002-1
	1-29-02.asp"

<html>
<head>
<title>ens</title>
<meta name=3D"keywords" content=3D"acid rain, activist, agriculture, air,=
 air quality, algae, animal, animal rights, animal welfare, atmosphere, a=
viation, beach, bird, biotechnology, chemical, citizen, citizens, clean, =
climate, climate change, coast, conferences, conservation, contamination,=
 dam, demonstration, desert, desertification, dioxin, disaster, dolphin, =
drinking water, earth, eco, ecoisp, ecology, ecosystem, eco-travel, ecoto=
urism, elephant, emission, emissions, endangered, ens, ENS, energy, envir=
onment, environmental, environmental groups, environmental lawsuit, envir=
onmental legislation, environmental media, environmental news, environmen=
tal newswire, environmental politics, environmental science, environmenta=
l treaties, erosion, fire, fish, flood, food, forest, fuel, fuel cell, ga=
s, genetically engineered organisms, genetically, global, global warming,=
 green, greenhouse gas, habitat, healing, health, herbicide, human rights=
, hurricane, industrial, Kyoto, lakes, lead, lion, logging, mangrove, NGO=
, network, news, newswire, nitrate, nongovernmental organization, non-gov=
ernmental organization, nuclear, oceans, oil, old-growth, outdoors, ozone=
, ozone layer, park, pesticide, planet, plant, plutonium, poisons, pollut=
ion, porpoise, power, protect, protest, protesters, radioactive, rainfore=
st, recycling, renewable, rhino, river, rivers, salmon, shark, smog, sola=
r, species, spill, sustainable, sustainable development, tiger, timber, t=
oxics, transportation, treatment, UN, UNEP, uranium, water, water quality=
, watershed, whale, whaling, wilderness, wildlife, wind, wood, world">
<meta name=3D"description" content=3D"Environment News Service">

</head>
<body bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" link=3D"#000000" vlink=3D"#330099" alink=3D"#12=
3C2A">=20
<!--header logo table start-->
<table border=3D"1" bordercolor=3D"#333399" bgcolor=3D"#ffffff"
cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"2" width=3D"100%">
<tr>
<td align=3D"left" bgcolor=3D"#ffffff">=20
<center><a href=3D"http://www.ecoisp.com"><img
src=3D"http://ens-news.com/images/ecologo.gif" border=3D"0" alt=3D"Save t=
he
Earth while you Surf! CLICK HERE"></a></center>
</td>
<td width=3D"620" align=3D"right" bgcolor=3D"#ffffff">
<a href=3D"http://ens-news.com/index.asp"><img
src=3D"http://ens-news.com/images/enslogo.jpg" width=3D"540" height=3D"57=
"
border=3D"0" alt=3D"ENS Home"></td>
</tr></table>
<!--header logo table end-->
<table border=3D"0" bordercolor=3D"#333399" bgcolor=3D"#ffffff"
cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" width=3D"100%">
<tr>
<td align=3D"left" valign=3D"top" bgcolor=3D"#333399">
<font size=3D"1" face=3D"verdana" color=3D"#FDF8E0"><b>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<a href=3D"http://ens-news.com"><font
color=3D"#FDF8E0">Home</font></a>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<a href=3D"http://ens-news.com/about.asp"><font color=3D"#FDF8E0">About
ENS</font></a>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<a href=3D"http://ens-news.com/ens/youthdesk/youthdeskwelcome.asp"><font
color=3D"#FDF8E0">Youth
Desk</font></a>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<a href=3D"mailto:news@ens-news.com"><font color=3D"#FDF8E0">Email The
Editor</font></a>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<a href=3D"http://ens-news.com/newsindex.asp"><font color=3D"#FDF8E0">New=
s
Index</font></a>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<a href=3D"http://ens-news.com/events.asp"><font color=3D"#FDF8E0">Events=

Calendar</font></a>
</b></font>
<td align=3D"right" bgcolor=3D"#333399">
<!-- BEGIN DATE SCRIPT -->

<script language=3D"JavaScript">
/*---------------
This JavaScript was written by Joey Mornin
---------------*/
// Start Script

// The array for the month names
var montharray =3D new Array(11)
montharray[0] =3D "January";montharray[1] =3D "February";montharray[2] =3D=

"March";montharray[3] =3D "April";montharray[4] =3D "May";montharray[5] =3D=

"June";montharray[6] =3D "July";montharray[7] =3D "August";montharray[8] =
=3D
"September";montharray[9] =3D "October";montharray[10] =3D
"November";montharray[11] =3D "December";
//First, declare the variables
var time =3D new Date()
var monthnum =3D time.getMonth()
var monthname =3D montharray[monthnum]
var year =3D time.getFullYear()
var day =3D time.getDate()
// Font Properties
var font_size =3D "1" // Font Size
var font_color =3D "#FDF8E0" // Font Color
var font_family =3D "Verdana, Arial, MS Sans Serif" // Font Family
// Display the date
document.write("<font size=3D'" + font_size + "' color=3D'" + font_color =
+
"' face=3D'" + font_family + "'>")
document.write(monthname + " " + day + ", " + year + "</font>") =20
// End Script
</script><font size=3D"1">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</font>

<!-- END DATE SCRIPT -->



</td></tr></table>

<!--main table start-->
<table border=3D"0" bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"=
0"
width=3D"100%">
<tr>
<!--start left column-->
<td bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" valign=3D"top" width=3D"160">
<font size=3D"1"><br></font>
<!--left column content-->
<table width=3D"160" height=3D"118" border=3D"0" bgcolor=3D"#333399"
cellspacing=3D"2" cellpadding=3D"0">
<tr>
<td align=3D"center" bgcolor=3D"#333399">=20
<font face=3D"Verdana" size=3D"2" color=3D"#ffffff"><b>Search ENS
News</b></font></td></tr>
<tr>
<td align=3D"center" bgcolor=3D"#FDF8E0">
<FORM METHOD=3Dget ACTION=3D"http://ens-news.com/search/search.asp" id=3D=
form1
name=3Dform1>
<font size=3D"1" FACE=3D"verdana"><b>Type Search Term,<br>Hit Enter</b>
<br><input NAME=3D"querytext" SIZE=3D"10" MAXLENGTH=3D"50"><br><br></font=
>
<a href=3D"http://ens-news.com/researchhelp.asp"><img
src=3D"http://ens-news.com/images/researchbutton.gif" border=3D"0"></a>
</td></tr></FORM>
</table>
<br>
<!--worldscan-->
<table width=3D"160" bgcolor=3D"#FDF8E0" cellpadding=3D"2">
<tr>
<td valign=3D"top" width=3D"160" bgcolor=3D"#333399">
<center><b><font face=3D"Verdana" size=3D"2"
color=3D"#ffffff">&nbsp;WorldScan</font></b></center>
</td></tr>

<tr>
<td valign=3D"top" width=3D"160" bgcolor=3D"#FDF8E0">
<font size=3D"1" face=3D"Verdana" color=3D"#000000">
<b>=B7 <a
href=3D"http://ens-news.com/ens/nov2002/2002-11-25-19.asp#anchor1">RUSSIA=
<br>
Anti-Nuclear Groups Under Close Scrutiny
</a></b>

<br><br>

<b>=B7 <a
href=3D"http://ens-news.com/ens/nov2002/2002-11-25-19.asp#anchor2">GERMAN=
Y<br>
IFAW Challenges Airbus Factory Planned for Wetland
</a></b>

<br><br>

<b>=B7 <a
href=3D"http://ens-news.com/ens/nov2002/2002-11-25-19.asp#anchor3">CANADA=
<br>
New Poll Shows Majority Support Kyoto Protocol

</a></b>

<br><br>

<b>=B7 <a
href=3D"http://ens-news.com/ens/nov2002/2002-11-25-19.asp#anchor4">CANADA=
<br>
Oyster Disease Spreads Across the Maritimes
</a></b>

<br><br>

<b>=B7 <a
href=3D"http://ens-news.com/ens/nov2002/2002-11-25-19.asp#anchor5">AUSTRA=
LIA<br>
Nuclear Probe Combats Acid Mine Waste, Salinity=20


</a></b>


<br><br>

<b>=B7 <a
href=3D"http://ens-news.com/ens/nov2002/2002-11-25-19.asp#anchor6">AUSTRA=
LIA<br>
New Possum Species Found


</a></b>

<br><br>

<b>=B7 <a
href=3D"http://ens-news.com/ens/nov2002/2002-11-25-19.asp#anchor7">BELIZE=
<br>
Protection Extended to Nassau Grouper</a>

</td>
</tr></table>
<!--worldscan-->


<br>
<!-- HTML to Copy Starts Here -->

<!--Note: For correct presentation of the form, leave HTML formatted *as
is*. -->

<TABLE WIDTH=3D"160" CELLPADDING=3D0 CELLSPACING=3D0 BORDER=3D1
bordercolor=3D"#333399" bgcolor=3D"#FDF8E0">
<FORM ACTION=3D"http://www.email-publisher.com/survey/" METHOD=3D"POST"
TARGET=3D"New_Window" id=3Dform2 name=3Dform2>
<INPUT TYPE=3D"hidden" NAME=3D"lists"
VALUE=3D"ens@topica.email-publisher.com">
<TR>
<TD align=3D"center" width=3D"160">
<font size=3D"2" face=3D"verdana" color=3D"#990033"><B>Subscribe to
ENS</B></font>
<font size=3D"1" face=3D"verdana,sans-serif"><br>Enter your email to rece=
ive
news Today!<br>
<input type=3D"text" size=3D"10" name=3D"email" value=3D"email"><br>
<INPUT TYPE=3D"radio" NAME=3D"type" VALUE=3D"HTML">HTML
<INPUT TYPE=3D"radio" NAME=3D"type" VALUE=3D"TEXT">Text
<INPUT TYPE=3D"radio" NAME=3D"type" VALUE=3D"AOL">AOL
<br><input type=3D"submit" value=3D" Join "><br><br></font>
</TD></TR>
</FORM>
</TABLE>
<!-- HTML Ends Here -->

</td>
<!--end left column content-->

<!--MIDDLE COLUMN, Daily News Begins-->
<td bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" align=3D"left" valign=3D"top">

<!--cellpadding table start-->
<table width=3D"100%" bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" cellpadding=3D"10">
<tr>
<td width=3D"100%" bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" align=3D"left" valign=3D"top">

	<table width=3D"100%" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" border=3D"0">
	<tr>
	<td align=3D"left" valign=3D"top">
=09
<!--middle content start / end tophtml-->





<title>Soil's Tiniest Organisms Could Solve Huge Problems</title>

<P><B><font size=3D"+1">Soil's Tiniest Organisms Could Solve Huge Problem=
s</font></b>
<p>


<b>NAIROBI, Kenya</b>, November 29, 2002 (ENS) - There is a wealth of new=
 species under our feet awaiting discovery, especially in the still unkno=
wn portions of the tropics, which represents "a huge new genetic resource=
," the top United Nations environmental agency said today. Amoebas, proto=
zoa, netatodes, mites, termits, ants, earthworms. Life forms that inhabit=
 the soil are the least known of all life forms on Earth, and scientists =
are discovering that they can profoundly affect planetary patterns.
<p>
Calling it "the largest source of untapped life left on Earth," the UN En=
vironment Programme (UNEP) has announced a new $26 million project to und=
erstand and utilize the life forms underground. It is one of the more "un=
usual, curious but absolutely vital projects UNEP has undertaken," said t=
he agency's executive director Klaus Toepfer as he announced the project =
today.
<p>
<IMG SRC=3D"../pics25/soilscientists.jpg" ALIGN=3Dright HSPACE=3D2 VSPACE=
=3D2 ALT=3D"scientists" WIDTH=3D280 HEIGHT=3D210><H5>Mark Kinney and Conr=
ad Field construct a soil profile on native lands near Homer, Alaska. <sm=
all>(Photo courtesy <a href=3D"http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/" target=3D"_blan=
k">USDA Natural Resources Conservation Service</a>)</small></H5>
In the hope that this "genetic treasure trove" will yield new drugs, anti=
biotics, and industrial products, the project will initially target "belo=
w ground biodiversity" in seven tropical countries - Brazil, Mexico, Cote=
 d'Ivoire, Uganda, Kenya, Indonesia and India. These countries were chose=
n for study are those thought to have the richest below ground biodiversi=
ty.
 <p>
Backed with $9 million funding from the World Bank Group's Global Environ=
ment Facility (GEF) and support from other donors such as the Rockefeller=
 Foundation, the Conservation and Sustainable Management of Below-Ground =
Biodiversity project will catalog and classify "the life forms below grou=
nd" said Ahmed Djoghlaf, head of the UNEP/GEF Division, based at UNEP hea=
dquarters in Nairobi.
<p>
One gram of tropical forest soil may contain up to 40,000 individual bact=
erial species, the agency said today, many of which have never been descr=
ibed.=20
<p>
These miniscule life forms can be as tiny as one-tenth of a millimetre (1=
00 micron). The smallest amoebas are even less than 10 micron in size.=20
<p>
"There is an urgent need to assess, classify and record the life forms be=
low ground," Djoghlaf said.=20
<p>
<IMG SRC=3D"../pics25/mites.jpg" ALIGN=3Dleft HSPACE=3D2 VSPACE=3D2 ALT=3D=
"mites" WIDTH=3D248 HEIGHT=3D165><H5>The 200 species of mites in this mic=
roscope view were extracted from one square foot of the top two inches of=
 forest litter and soil. Mites play a role in soil nutrient release.
<small>(Photo by Val Behan-Pelletier, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada co=
urtesy <a href=3D"http://www.usda.gov" target=3D"_blank">USDA</a>)</small=
></H5>
Just as increasing intensification of agriculture and clearing of forests=
 for farmland have taken their toll on wild animals and plants, they plac=
e the microscopic world of underground bacteria and fungi at risk of exti=
nction and decline in the abundance and numbers of species.
<p>
UNEP Executive Director Klaus Toepfer said, "The life forms living just b=
elow our feet are the most understudied organisms on the planet. When peo=
ple think of where new species might be found, they tend to think of the =
rainforests, mangrove swamps or place like mountain peaks, not millimetre=
s below their toes."
<p>
Toepfer said researchers are now realizing that the world's soils, especi=
ally topical soils, are teeming with life. They "harbor more undescribed =
species than dwell on the Earth's surface," he said.
<p>
Expressing delight at UNEP's involvement in "this pioneering work." Toepf=
er said, "Harvesting the secrets of this understudied realm promises huge=
 benefits and improved knowledge towards the goal of delivering sustainab=
le development, towards eradicating poverty."=20
<p>
Bacteria and fungi in the soil can clean drinking water sources. They hel=
p eliminate pollutants and germs from groundwater as it percolates throug=
h the soil to reservoirs, boreholes and other freshwaters sources.
<p>
<IMG SRC=3D"../pics25/nematodefem.jpg" ALIGN=3Dright HSPACE=3D2 VSPACE=3D=
2 ALT=3D"nematode" WIDTH=3D75 HEIGHT=3D115><H5>Female nematode  <small>(P=
hoto courtesy USDA Agricultural Research Service</small></H5>
Organisms living in the soil also "play a key role in the release of carb=
on dioxide, methane and other greenhouse gases from the land into the atm=
osphere," scientists associated with the project said as part of the UNEP=
 statement today.=20
<p>

Understanding and unraveling the role of these microscopic creatures in t=
he carbon cycle may help the land absorb more greenhouse gases to help co=
ol the planet.
<p>
Soil-dwelling beneficial life forms may also play a role in reducing crop=
, livestock and human diseases, UNEP said today, as they attack and neutr=
alize plant, animal and human pests and pathogens.=20
<p>
Earthworms, termites and other soil burrowing organisms influence the amo=
unt of rainwater soils can absorb. Soils depleted in such organisms are m=
ore prone to drought and run-off, which in turn increases the risk of flo=
oding and erosion with consequences for river water and coral reefs.
<p>
<IMG SRC=3D"../pics25/cocoons.jpg" ALIGN=3Dleft HSPACE=3D2 VSPACE=3D2 ALT=
=3D"cocoons" WIDTH=3D250 HEIGHT=3D170><H5>Earthworm cocoons <small>(Photo=
 by Clive A. Edwards, The Ohio State University, Columbus published in th=
e USDA's <a href=3D"http://soils.usda.gov/sqi/soil_biology_primer.htm" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">Soil Biology Primer</a>)</small></H5>
"We may be losing many important and useful species from the world's soil=
s without even knowing it," warned Djoghlaf.
<p>
The project is coordinated by Mike Swift, director of the Nairobi based T=
ropical Soil Biology and Fertility Institute of the International Center =
for Tropical Agriculture (CIAT), one of the research centers in the CGIAR=
 agricultural network.
<p>
The Consultative Group on International Agricultural Research (CGIAR), an=
 association of public and private members supporting a system of 16 Futu=
re Harvest Centers, works in more than 100 countries, mobilizing the "cut=
ting-edge science" that CGIAR says aims to reduce hunger and poverty, imp=
rove human nutrition and health, and protect the environment.=20
<p>
Increasingly, bioengineering and genetic modification of crops underpins =
CGIAR's approach to those issues. Still, CIAT has other offerings, among =
them a new climate database tool based on 20 years of weather data. The n=
ewly published CD-ROM version 1 of MarkSimTM generates Simulated Weather =
Data for Crop Modeling and Risk Assessment.=20
<p>
<b>The Below-Ground Biodiversity Project Guide to
"Mini Beasts, Wiggle Worms and Fellow Soil Dwellers"</b>
<p>
Over 4,000 bacteria and related organisms have been described by science,=
 an unknown number of which are soil dwelling. It is estimated that in on=
e gram of forest soil there are up to 40,000 individual bacterial species=
 many of which have never been described.
<p>
It is thought that only five percent of the world's living fungi have bee=
n described. Of the 72,000 described species, up to 35,000 could be class=
ed as soil living.
<p>
Protozoa include amoebas and flagellates. Some 1,900 soil-living protozoa=
 have been described, which may be only 10 percent of the species alive.
<p>
Some 15,000 individual nematode species have been described. It is estima=
ted that there may be more than be as many as 100,000 species.
<p>
The 45,000 described species of spider-like invertebrates known as mites =
 are thought to represent just five percent of the total.
<p>
There are numerous groups of soil-dwelling insects, including termites. M=
ore than 2,000 termite species have been described.
<p>
Nearly 9,000 ant species have been described.
<p>
Over 3,600 earthworms have been described, and scientists say double this=
 number may exist in the wild.
<p>
Most protozoa eat bacteria, says Elaine Ingham of Oregon State University=
, but one group of amoebae eat fungi, the vampyrellids that suck the life=
 out of their prey.
<p>
"The perfectly round holes drilled through the fungal cell wall, much lik=
e the purported puncture marks on the neck of a vampire=92s victim, are e=
vidence of the presence of vampyrellid amoebae," says Ingham. "The amoeba=
e attach to the surface of fungal hyphae and generate enzymes that eat th=
rough the fungal cell wall. The amoeba then sucks dry or engulfs the cyto=
plasm inside the fungal cell before moving on to its next victim."
<p>
Pictures, facts and figures on soil biology and below ground biodiversity=
 are online at the website of the U.S. Department of Agriculture Natural =
Resources Conservation Service's Soil Quality Institute, UNEP recommends.=
 Find it <a href=3D"http://soils.usda.gov/sqi/SoilBiology/soil_biology_pr=
imer.htm#Contents" target=3D"_blank">here</a>.
<p>
The "Soil Biology Primer" edited by by A.J. Tugel, and A.M. Lewandowski t=
he source of the photos in this article, is online at: <a href=3D"http://=
soils.usda.gov/sqi/soil_biology_primer.htm" target=3D"_blank">http://soil=
s.usda.gov/sqi/soil_biology_primer.htm</a> =20


<!--middle content end / begin bottomhtml-->

</td></tr>
</table>=20
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<!--cellpadding table end-->

</td>
<!-- end middle content table-->

<!--start right column-->
<td bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" valign=3D"top" width=3D"160">
<font size=3D"1"><br></font>
<!-- start right cellpadding table -->
<!--add news-->
<table width=3D"160" height=3D"118" border=3D"0" bgcolor=3D"#333399" cell=
spacing=3D"2" cellpadding=3D"0">
<tr>
<td align=3D"center" bgcolor=3D"#333399">=20
<font face=3D"Verdana" size=3D"2" color=3D"#ffffff"><b>News You Can Use</=
b></font></td></tr>
<tr>
<td align=3D"center" bgcolor=3D"#FDF8E0">
<font size=3D"1" face=3D"verdana" color=3D"#000000">
Enliven your website or paper with ENS News.
<br><br><center><b>Daily headlines FREE!</b><br><br>
<A href=3D"mailto:editor@ens-news.com"><font color=3D"#990033"><b>Contact=
 Us</b></font></a> for details.</A><br>&nbsp;</font></td></tr></table>
<!--add news-->
<br>
<!--ameriscan-->
<table width=3D"160" bgcolor=3D"#FDF8E0" cellpadding=3D"2">
<tr>
<td valign=3D"top" width=3D"160" bgcolor=3D"#333399">
<center><b><font face=3D"Verdana" size=3D"2" color=3D"#ffffff">&nbsp;Amer=
iScan</font></b></center>
</td></tr>
<tr>
<td valign=3D"top" width=3D"160" bgcolor=3D"#FDF8E0">
<font size=3D"1" face=3D"Verdana" color=3D"#000000">

<b>=B7 <a href=3D"http://ens-news.com/ens/nov2002/2002-11-27-09.asp#ancho=
r1">
<font color=3D"#000000">Bush Pardons Turkeys in 55 Year Tradition</font><=
/a></b>

<br><br>

<b>=B7 <a href=3D"http://ens-news.com/ens/nov2002/2002-11-27-09.asp#ancho=
r2">
<font color=3D"#000000">Green Group Offers Tips for Eco-Thanksgiving</fon=
t></a></b>

<br><br>

<b>=B7 <a href=3D"http://ens-news.com/ens/nov2002/2002-11-27-09.asp#ancho=
r3">
<font color=3D"#000000">Turkey Dinners Can Carry Hidden Costs</font></a><=
/b>

<br><br>

<b>=B7 <a href=3D"http://ens-news.com/ens/nov2002/2002-11-27-09.asp#ancho=
r4">
<font color=3D"#000000">Eating Organic Offers a Variety of Benefits</font=
></a></b>

<br><br>

<b>=B7 <a href=3D"http://ens-news.com/ens/nov2002/2002-11-27-09.asp#ancho=
r5">
<font color=3D"#000000">Trader Joe's Phases Out Engineered Foods</font></=
a></b>

<br><br>

<b>=B7 <a href=3D"http://ens-news.com/ens/nov2002/2002-11-27-09.asp#ancho=
r6">
<font color=3D"#000000">Whole Foods in Los Angeles Goes Solar</font></a><=
/b>

<br><br>

<b>=B7 <a href=3D"http://ens-news.com/ens/nov2002/2002-11-27-09.asp#ancho=
r7">
<font color=3D"#000000">Start The Season With Pennies for the Planet</fon=
t></a></b>

<br><br>

<b>=B7 <a href=3D"http://ens-news.com/ens/nov2002/2002-11-27-09.asp#ancho=
r8">
<font color=3D"#000000">Fur Free Friday Will Follow Thanksgiving</font></=
a></b>


</td>
</tr></table>

<!--<br>
<table width=3D"160" bgcolor=3D"#333399" border=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"2" c=
ellpadding=3D"2">
<tr>
<td align=3D"left" bgcolor=3D"#FDF8E0">=20
<center><font face=3D"Verdana" size=3D"2"><b><br>advertisment<br><br></b>=
</center>
</td></tr>
</table>-->

<br>

<br>

<!--end right cellpadding table-->

</td>
<!--end right column-->

</tr></table>
<!--end main table-->
<br><center>
<font face=3D"Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=3D"2" color=3D"=
black">Copyright Environment News Service (ENS) 2002. All Rights Reserved=
=2E</font>
</center>
</body>
</html>
--------------020500090703070503000705--



.

From - Mon Dec 02 23:13:23 2002
X-UIDL: 322733681
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 12000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AD34730206; Mon, 02 Dec 2002 23:04:04 -0500
Received: from intrex.net [209.42.230.14] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AD44A60296; Mon, 02 Dec 2002 23:04:20 -0500
Message-ID: <3DEC5989.4030808@intrex.net>
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 23:13:13 -0800
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
Organization: http://market-farming.com  --  Venaura Farm
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To:  lfl@intrex.net
Subject: Google Search: subtle energy agriculture
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
 boundary="------------060004000300030000050308"
X-Declude-Sender: lfl@intrex.net [209.42.230.14]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. Whitelisted
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
X-UIDL: 322733681
Status: U

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------060004000300030000050308
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


<http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=subtle+energy+agriculture&btnG=Google+Search>

-- 
L.F.London
lfl@intrex.net
http://market-farming.com
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/pcwiki/index.php/london

--------------060004000300030000050308
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8;
 name="www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=subtle+energy+agriculture&btnG=Google+Search"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline;
 filename="www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=subtle+energy+agriculture&btnG=Google+Search"
Content-Base: "http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=
	UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=subtle+energy+agri
	culture&btnG=Google+Search"
Content-Location: "http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=
	UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=subtle+energy+agri
	culture&btnG=Google+Search"

<html><head><meta HTTP-EQUIV=3D"content-type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; chars=
et=3DUTF-8"><title>Google Search: subtle energy agriculture </title><styl=
e><!--
body,td,div,.p,a{font-family:arial,sans-serif }
div,td{color:#000}
=2Ef,.fl:link{color:#6f6f6f}
a:link,.w,a.w:link,.w a:link{color:#00c}
a:visited,.fl:visited{color:#551a8b}
a:active,.fl:active{color:#f00}
=2Et a:link,.t a:active,.t a:visited,.t{color:#ffffff}
=2Et{background-color:#3366cc}
=2Eh{color:#3366cc;font-size:14px}
=2Ei,.i:link{color:#a90a08}
=2Ea,.a:link{color:#008000}
=2Ez{display:none}
div.n {margin-top: 1ex}
=2En a{font-size:10pt; color:#000}
=2En .i{font-size:10pt; font-weight:bold}
=2Eq a:visited,.q a:link,.q a:active,.q {text-decoration: none; color: #0=
0c;}
=2Eb{font-size: 12pt; color:#00c; font-weight:bold}
=2Ech{cursor:pointer;cursor:hand}
//-->
</style>
<script>
<!--
function ss(w){window.status=3Dw;return true;}
function cs(){window.status=3D'';}
function ga(o,e){if (document.getElementById){a=3Do.id.substring(1); p =3D=
 "";r =3D "";g =3D e.target;if (g) { t =3D g.id;f =3D g.parentNode;if (f)=
 {p =3D f.id;h =3D f.parentNode;if (h) r =3D h.id;}} else{h =3D e.srcElem=
ent;f =3D h.parentNode;if (f) p =3D f.id;t =3D h.id;}if (t=3D=3Da || p=3D=
=3Da || r=3D=3Da) return true;location.href=3Ddocument.getElementById(a).=
href}}
//-->
</script>
</head><body bgcolor=3D#ffffff onLoad=3D"document.gs.reset()"><table bord=
er=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 cellspacing=3D0><tr><td rowspan=3D3 valign=3Dtop><=
table cellpadding=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 border=3D0><tr><td align=3Dright va=
lign=3Dbottom><a href=3Dhttp://www.google.com><img src=3D/images/res0.gif=
 alt=3D"Go to Google Home" border=3D0 width=3D110 height=3D58></a></td><t=
d valign=3Dbottom><a href=3Dhttp://www.google.com><img src=3D/images/res1=
=2Egif border=3D0 width=3D38 height=3D58 alt=3D""></a></td><td valign=3Db=
ottom><a href=3Dhttp://www.google.com><img src=3D/images/res2.gif border=3D=
0 width=3D52 height=3D58 alt=3D""></a></td></tr><tr><td align=3Dright val=
ign=3Dtop class=3Dh><b>&nbsp;</b></td><td valign=3Dtop><a href=3Dhttp://w=
ww.google.com><img src=3D/images/res3.gif border=3D0 width=3D38 height=3D=
20 alt=3D""></a></td><td valign=3Dtop><font color=3D#6f6f6f style=3Dfont-=
size:14px>&nbsp;</font></td></tr></table></td><td nowrap><font size=3D-1>=
<a href=3D/advanced_search?q=3Dsubtle+energy+agriculture&hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=
=3DUTF-8&oe=3DUTF-8>Advanced Search</a>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href=3D=
/preferences?q=3Dsubtle+energy+agriculture&hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&oe=3D=
UTF-8>Preferences</a>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href=3D/language_tools?q=3D=
subtle+energy+agriculture&hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&oe=3DUTF-8>Language To=
ols</a>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href=3D/help/>Search&nbsp;Tips</a>&nbsp=
;</font></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dmiddle><form name=3Dgs method=3DGET ac=
tion=3D/search><input type=3Dhidden name=3Dhl value=3D"en"><input type=3D=
hidden name=3Dlr value=3D""><input type=3Dhidden name=3Die value=3D"UTF-8=
"><input type=3Dhidden name=3Doe value=3D"UTF-8"><input type=3Dtext name=3D=
q size=3D31 maxlength=3D2048 value=3D"subtle energy agriculture"><font si=
ze=3D-1> <input type=3Dsubmit name=3DbtnG value=3D"Google Search"><span i=
d=3Dhf></span></font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=3D-1>&nbsp;</font></td>=
</tr></form></table><script><!--
function b(p,l,e){var re=3Dnew RegExp('/search');var f=3Ddocument.gs;var =
a=3Df.action;if (a && document.getElementById) {f.action=3Da.replace(re,p=
);var hf=3Ddocument.getElementById("hf");if (hf) {var t =3D "<input type=3D=
hidden name=3Dsa value=3DN><input type=3Dhidden name=3Dtab value=3D"+l+">=
";if (l.charAt(1) =3D=3D 'd')t +=3D "<input type=3Dhidden name=3Dcat valu=
e=3Dgwd/Top>";else {var c1=3Ddocument.getElementById("ct1");var c2=3Ddocu=
ment.getElementById("ct2");if (c1 && c2) {c1.value=3D"";c2.value=3D"";}if=
 (f.cat)f.cat.value=3D"";}hf.innerHTML=3Dt;}e.cancelBubble=3Dtrue;f.submi=
t();return false;}return true;}
function c(p,l,e) {b(p,l,e);}
// -->
</script><table border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 cellspacing=3D0><tr><td id=3Dt=
0 bgcolor=3D#3366cc width=3D60 nowrap><center><font size=3D-1 color=3D#ff=
ffff>&nbsp;<b>Web</b>&nbsp;</font></center></td><td width=3D1 bgcolor=3D#=
808080><img width=3D1 height=3D1 alt=3D""></td><td width=3D1 bgcolor=3D#f=
fffff><img width=3D1 height=3D1 alt=3D""></td><td id=3Dt1 onClick=3D"c('h=
ttp://images.google.com/images','wi',event);" style=3Dcursor:pointer;curs=
or:hand; class=3Dq bgcolor=3D#efefef width=3D60 nowrap><center><font size=
=3D-1><a id=3Dt1a class=3Dq href=3Dhttp://images.google.com/images?q=3Dsu=
btle+energy+agriculture&hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&oe=3DUTF-8&sa=3DN&tab=3D=
wi onClick=3D"return b('http://images.google.com/images','wi',event);">&n=
bsp;Images&nbsp;</a></font></center></td><td width=3D1 bgcolor=3D#808080>=
<img width=3D1 height=3D1 alt=3D""></td><td width=3D1 bgcolor=3D#ffffff><=
img width=3D1 height=3D1 alt=3D""></td><td id=3Dt2 onClick=3D"c('http://g=
roups.google.com/groups','wg',event);" style=3Dcursor:pointer;cursor:hand=
; class=3Dq bgcolor=3D#efefef width=3D60 nowrap><center><font size=3D-1><=
a id=3Dt2a class=3Dq href=3Dhttp://groups.google.com/groups?q=3Dsubtle+en=
ergy+agriculture&hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&oe=3DUTF-8&sa=3DN&tab=3Dwg onCl=
ick=3D"return b('http://groups.google.com/groups','wg',event);">&nbsp;Gro=
ups&nbsp;</a></font></center></td><td width=3D1 bgcolor=3D#808080><img wi=
dth=3D1 height=3D1 alt=3D""></td><td width=3D1 bgcolor=3D#ffffff><img wid=
th=3D1 height=3D1 alt=3D""></td><td id=3Dt3 onClick=3D"c('http://www.goog=
le.com/search','wd',event);" style=3Dcursor:pointer;cursor:hand; class=3D=
q bgcolor=3D#efefef width=3D60 nowrap><center><font size=3D-1><a id=3Dt3a=
 class=3Dq href=3Dhttp://www.google.com/search?q=3Dsubtle+energy+agricult=
ure&hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&oe=3DUTF-8&cat=3Dgwd/Top&sa=3DN&tab=3Dwd onC=
lick=3D"return b('http://www.google.com/search','wd',event);">&nbsp;Direc=
tory&nbsp;</a></font></center></td><td width=3D1 bgcolor=3D#808080><img w=
idth=3D1 height=3D1 alt=3D""></td><td width=3D1 bgcolor=3D#ffffff><img wi=
dth=3D1 height=3D1 alt=3D""></td><td id=3Dt4 onClick=3D"c('http://news.go=
ogle.com/news','wn',event);" style=3Dcursor:pointer;cursor:hand; class=3D=
q bgcolor=3D#efefef width=3D80 nowrap><center><font size=3D-1><a id=3Dt4a=
 class=3Dq href=3Dhttp://news.google.com/news?q=3Dsubtle+energy+agricultu=
re&hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&oe=3DUTF-8&sa=3DN&tab=3Dwn onClick=3D"return =
b('http://news.google.com/news','wn',event);">&nbsp;<nobr>News-<font	colo=
r=3Dred>New!</font></nobr>&nbsp;</a></font></center></td><td width=3D1 bg=
color=3D#808080><img width=3D1 height=3D1 alt=3D""></td></tr></table><tab=
le width=3D100% border=3D0 cellpadding=3D1 cellspacing=3D0 bgcolor=3D#336=
6cc><tr><td bgcolor=3D#3366cc nowrap><table width=3D100% border=3D0 cellp=
adding=3D1 cellspacing=3D0 bgcolor=3D#3366cc><tr><td bgcolor=3D#3366cc no=
wrap><font size=3D-1 color=3D#ffffff>Searched the web for <b><a href=3D/u=
rl?sa=3DX&oi=3Ddict&q=3Dhttp://www.dictionary.com/search%3Fq%3Dsubtle%26r=
%3D67 title=3D"Look up subtle on dictionary.com"><font color=3D#ffffff>su=
btle</font></a> <a href=3D/url?sa=3DX&oi=3Ddict&q=3Dhttp://www.dictionary=
=2Ecom/search%3Fq%3Denergy%26r%3D67 title=3D"Look up energy on dictionary=
=2Ecom"><font color=3D#ffffff>energy</font></a> <a href=3D/url?sa=3DX&oi=3D=
dict&q=3Dhttp://www.dictionary.com/search%3Fq%3Dagriculture%26r%3D67 titl=
e=3D"Look up agriculture on dictionary.com"><font color=3D#ffffff>agricul=
ture</font></a></b>.&nbsp; </font></td><td bgcolor=3D#3366cc align=3Drigh=
t nowrap><font size=3D-1 color=3D#ffffff>Results <b>1</b> - <b>10</b> of =
about <b>29,500</b>.   Search took <b>0.08</b> seconds.</font></td></tr><=
/table></td></tr></table><!--a--><div><p><!--m--><a href=3Dhttp://www.acr=
esusa.com/books/thumbnail.asp?catid=3D22&pcid=3D2>Acres USA -- A Voice fo=
r Eco-<b>Agriculture</b></a><br><font size=3D-1> <b>...</b> <b>Subtle</b>=
 Energies: Ancient <b>...</b> farming. The Anatomy of Life &amp; <b>Energ=
y</b> In <b>Agriculture</b><br>
Biochemical, biophysical approach to farm success. The <b>...</b>=20
<br><font color=3D#008000>www.acresusa.com/books/ thumbnail.asp?catid=3D2=
2&amp;pcid=3D2 -  31k - </font><a class=3Dfl href=3Dhttp://216.239.53.100=
/search?q=3Dcache:6_nXewjPiIcC:www.acresusa.com/books/thumbnail.asp%3Fcat=
id%3D22%26pcid%3D2+subtle+energy+agriculture&hl=3Den&ie=3DUTF-8>Cached</a=
> - <a class=3Dfl href=3D/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&oe=3DUTF-8&q=3D=
related:www.acresusa.com/books/thumbnail.asp%3Fcatid%3D22%26pcid%3D2>Simi=
lar pages</a></font><!--n--> <blockquote><p><!--m--><a href=3Dhttp://www.=
acresusa.com/tapes/thumbnail.asp?catid=3D33&pcid=3D3>Acres USA -- A Voice=
 for Eco-<b>Agriculture</b></a><br><font size=3D-1> <b>...</b> 1999 <b>Su=
btle</b> Energies in <b>Agriculture</b>: Orgone <b>Energy</b> &amp; Non-T=
oxic Farming<br>
James DeMeo, 2 tape audio set, 1999. Radionic Applications <b>...</b>=20
<br><font color=3D#008000>www.acresusa.com/tapes/ thumbnail.asp?catid=3D3=
3&amp;pcid=3D3 -  24k - </font><a class=3Dfl href=3Dhttp://216.239.53.100=
/search?q=3Dcache:dd5TSb9b9x0C:www.acresusa.com/tapes/thumbnail.asp%3Fcat=
id%3D33%26pcid%3D3+subtle+energy+agriculture&hl=3Den&ie=3DUTF-8>Cached</a=
> - <a class=3Dfl href=3D/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&oe=3DUTF-8&q=3D=
related:www.acresusa.com/tapes/thumbnail.asp%3Fcatid%3D33%26pcid%3D3>Simi=
lar pages</a><br>[ <a class=3Dfl href=3D/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&=
oe=3DUTF-8&q=3D+site:www.acresusa.com+subtle+energy+agriculture>More resu=
lts from www.acresusa.com</a> ]</font><!--n--> </blockquote><p><!--m--><a=
 href=3Dhttp://csf.colorado.edu/archive/1998/bdnow2/msg01083.html><b>Subt=
le</b> <b>Energy</b> in Ag Conference</a><br><font size=3D-1> <b>...</b> =
<b>Subtle</b> <b>Energy</b> Conference Presentations on orgone research w=
ill be given by James<br>
DeMeo, Ph.D at a forthcoming conference on &quot;<b>Subtle</b> Energies i=
n <b>Agriculture</b>&quot;, <b>...</b>=20
<br><font color=3D#008000>csf.colorado.edu/archive/1998/bdnow2/msg01083.h=
tml -  4k - </font><a class=3Dfl href=3Dhttp://216.239.53.100/search?q=3D=
cache:S_Wm4qmFzdwC:csf.colorado.edu/archive/1998/bdnow2/msg01083.html+sub=
tle+energy+agriculture&hl=3Den&ie=3DUTF-8>Cached</a> - <a class=3Dfl href=
=3D/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&oe=3DUTF-8&q=3Drelated:csf.colorado.e=
du/archive/1998/bdnow2/msg01083.html>Similar pages</a></font><!--n--> <bl=
ockquote><p><!--m--><a href=3Dhttp://csf.colorado.edu/perma/lists/nov97/m=
sg00087.html>Re: Plant awareness</a><br><font size=3D-1> <b>...</b> WWI t=
o the Biological <b>Agriculture</b> Era (sustainable <b>agriculture</b>, =
organic farming,<br>
and permaculture) there are hints that the next era, the <b>Subtle</b> <b=
>Energy</b> Era, is <b>...</b>=20
<br><font color=3D#008000>csf.colorado.edu/perma/lists/nov97/msg00087.htm=
l -  8k - </font><a class=3Dfl href=3Dhttp://216.239.53.100/search?q=3Dca=
che:2hcxX60Ty6EC:csf.colorado.edu/perma/lists/nov97/msg00087.html+subtle+=
energy+agriculture&hl=3Den&ie=3DUTF-8>Cached</a> - <a class=3Dfl href=3D/=
search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&oe=3DUTF-8&q=3Drelated:csf.colorado.edu/p=
erma/lists/nov97/msg00087.html>Similar pages</a><br>[ <a class=3Dfl href=3D=
/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&oe=3DUTF-8&q=3D+site:csf.colorado.edu+su=
btle+energy+agriculture>More results from csf.colorado.edu</a> ]</font><!=
--n--> </blockquote><p><!--m--><a href=3Dhttp://www.newtimes.org/issue/00=
09/stone.html>Stone, (September 2000)</a><br><font size=3D-1> <b>...</b> =
At this summer=E2=80=99s West Coast conference of the American Society of=
 Dowsers,<br>
Penelope spoke on dowsing, <b>subtle</b> <b>energy</b> use in <b>agricult=
ure</b>, and landscape <b>...</b>=20
<br><font color=3D#008000>www.newtimes.org/issue/0009/stone.html -  12k -=
 </font><a class=3Dfl href=3Dhttp://216.239.53.100/search?q=3Dcache:336k7=
1O_3lMC:www.newtimes.org/issue/0009/stone.html+subtle+energy+agriculture&=
hl=3Den&ie=3DUTF-8>Cached</a> - <a class=3Dfl href=3D/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D=
&ie=3DUTF-8&oe=3DUTF-8&q=3Drelated:www.newtimes.org/issue/0009/stone.html=
>Similar pages</a></font><!--n--> <p><!--m--><a href=3Dhttp://www.randbur=
g.com/ca/tools_energy.html><b>Subtle</b> Energies tools. Tools For Wellne=
ss. USA/Canada</a><br><font size=3D-1> <b>...</b> and information on heal=
thy air and water What is <b>subtle</b> <b>energy</b>? Potentiating your<=
br>
<b>energy</b> fields Auras Teslar watches Biocircuits <b>...</b>  <b>Agri=
culture</b> =C2=B7 Commerce &amp; <b>...</b>=20
<br><font color=3D#008000>www.randburg.com/ca/tools_energy.html -  10k - =
</font><a class=3Dfl href=3Dhttp://216.239.53.100/search?q=3Dcache:pIh1I1=
ozYfcC:www.randburg.com/ca/tools_energy.html+subtle+energy+agriculture&hl=
=3Den&ie=3DUTF-8>Cached</a> - <a class=3Dfl href=3D/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&=
ie=3DUTF-8&oe=3DUTF-8&q=3Drelated:www.randburg.com/ca/tools_energy.html>S=
imilar pages</a></font><!--n--> <p><!--m--><span class=3Dw><font size=3D-=
2><b>[DOC]</b></font></span><a href=3Dhttp://ncatark.uark.edu/~steved/alt=
-farm-syst.doc>Comparative Analysis of Ten Major Alternative Farming Syst=
ems: <b>...</b> </a><br><font size=3D-1><font color=3D#6f6f6f>File Format=
:</font> Microsoft Word 97 - <a href=3Dhttp://216.239.53.100/search?q=3Dc=
ache:Fr6FWzjiv9gC:ncatark.uark.edu/~steved/alt-farm-syst.doc+subtle+energ=
y+agriculture&hl=3Den&ie=3DUTF-8>View as HTML</a><br> <b>...</b> Vibratio=
nal <b>Agriculture</b>. 1970-90s. <b>Energy</b> workers: Phil Callahan, H=
ugh Lovel, George<br>
Kuepper. Market gardening to Large-scale farming. <b>Subtle</b> <b>energy=
</b>, Vital <b>energy</b> <b>...</b>=20
<br><font color=3D#008000>ncatark.uark.edu/~steved/alt-farm-syst.doc -  <=
/font><a class=3Dfl href=3D/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&oe=3DUTF-8&q=3D=
related:ncatark.uark.edu/~steved/alt-farm-syst.doc>Similar pages</a></fon=
t><!--n--> <p><!--m--><a href=3Dhttp://www.slimspurling.com/English/facil=
itators/PenelopeBell.html>Slim Spurling's Web Site: Penelope Bell's Biogr=
aphy</a><br><font size=3D-1> <b>...</b> At this summer's West Coast confe=
rence of the American Society of Dowsers, Penelope<br>
spoke on dowsing, <b>subtle</b> <b>energy</b> use in <b>agriculture</b>, =
and landscape gardening <b>...</b>=20
<br><font color=3D#008000>www.slimspurling.com/English/facilitators/ Pene=
lopeBell.html -  7k - </font><a class=3Dfl href=3Dhttp://216.239.53.100/s=
earch?q=3Dcache:NBhYXPuyopQC:www.slimspurling.com/English/facilitators/Pe=
nelopeBell.html+subtle+energy+agriculture&hl=3Den&ie=3DUTF-8>Cached</a> -=
 <a class=3Dfl href=3D/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&oe=3DUTF-8&q=3Drel=
ated:www.slimspurling.com/English/facilitators/PenelopeBell.html>Similar =
pages</a></font><!--n--> <p><!--m--><a href=3Dhttp://www.oregonbd.org/wha=
tis.htm>whatis</a><br><font size=3D-1> <b>...</b> Acupuncture recognizes =
a <b>subtle</b> <b>energy</b> -- chi or life force -- that pervades our<b=
r>
bodies <b>...</b> time in the practice of using those forces beneficially=
 in <b>agriculture</b>. <b>...</b>=20
<br><font color=3D#008000>www.oregonbd.org/whatis.htm -  11k - </font><a =
class=3Dfl href=3Dhttp://216.239.53.100/search?q=3Dcache:kJNektXCUPUC:www=
=2Eoregonbd.org/whatis.htm+subtle+energy+agriculture&hl=3Den&ie=3DUTF-8>C=
ached</a> - <a class=3Dfl href=3D/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&oe=3DUT=
F-8&q=3Drelated:www.oregonbd.org/whatis.htm>Similar pages</a></font><!--n=
--> <p><!--m--><a href=3Dhttp://dmoz.org/Science/Anomalies_and_Alternativ=
e_Science/>Open Directory - Science: Anomalies and Alternative Science</a=
><br><font size=3D-1> <b>...</b>  Information and consulting on radionics=
 and applying psychotronic, vibrational<br>
<b>energy</b>, and other <b>subtle</b> <b>energy</b> concepts to <b>agric=
ulture</b> and other fields. <b>...</b>=20
<br><font color=3D#008000>dmoz.org/Science/Anomalies_and_Alternative_Scie=
nce/ -  22k - </font><a class=3Dfl href=3Dhttp://216.239.53.100/search?q=3D=
cache:lbVLYZWJ3I4C:dmoz.org/Science/Anomalies_and_Alternative_Science/+su=
btle+energy+agriculture&hl=3Den&ie=3DUTF-8>Cached</a> - <a class=3Dfl hre=
f=3D/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&oe=3DUTF-8&q=3Drelated:dmoz.org/Scie=
nce/Anomalies_and_Alternative_Science/>Similar pages</a></font><!--n-->  =
<!--z--></div><br clear=3Dall><div class=3Dn><table border=3D0 cellpaddin=
g=3D0 width=3D1% cellspacing=3D0 align=3Dcenter><tr align=3Dcenter valign=
=3Dtop><td valign=3Dbottom nowrap><font size=3D-1>Result&nbsp;Page:&nbsp;=
</font><td><img src=3D/nav_first.gif width=3D18 height=3D26 alt=3D""><br>=
<td><img src=3D/nav_current.gif width=3D16 height=3D26 alt=3D""><br><span=
 class=3Di>1</span><td><a href=3D/search?q=3Dsubtle+energy+agriculture&hl=
=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&oe=3DUTF-8&start=3D10&sa=3DN><img src=3D/nav_page.=
gif width=3D16 height=3D26 alt=3D"" border=3D0><br>2</a><td><a href=3D/se=
arch?q=3Dsubtle+energy+agriculture&hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&oe=3DUTF-8&st=
art=3D20&sa=3DN><img src=3D/nav_page.gif width=3D16 height=3D26 alt=3D"" =
border=3D0><br>3</a><td><a href=3D/search?q=3Dsubtle+energy+agriculture&h=
l=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&oe=3DUTF-8&start=3D30&sa=3DN><img src=3D/nav_page=
=2Egif width=3D16 height=3D26 alt=3D"" border=3D0><br>4</a><td><a href=3D=
/search?q=3Dsubtle+energy+agriculture&hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&oe=3DUTF-8=
&start=3D40&sa=3DN><img src=3D/nav_page.gif width=3D16 height=3D26 alt=3D=
"" border=3D0><br>5</a><td><a href=3D/search?q=3Dsubtle+energy+agricultur=
e&hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&oe=3DUTF-8&start=3D50&sa=3DN><img src=3D/nav_p=
age.gif width=3D16 height=3D26 alt=3D"" border=3D0><br>6</a><td><a href=3D=
/search?q=3Dsubtle+energy+agriculture&hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&oe=3DUTF-8=
&start=3D60&sa=3DN><img src=3D/nav_page.gif width=3D16 height=3D26 alt=3D=
"" border=3D0><br>7</a><td><a href=3D/search?q=3Dsubtle+energy+agricultur=
e&hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&oe=3DUTF-8&start=3D70&sa=3DN><img src=3D/nav_p=
age.gif width=3D16 height=3D26 alt=3D"" border=3D0><br>8</a><td><a href=3D=
/search?q=3Dsubtle+energy+agriculture&hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&oe=3DUTF-8=
&start=3D80&sa=3DN><img src=3D/nav_page.gif width=3D16 height=3D26 alt=3D=
"" border=3D0><br>9</a><td><a href=3D/search?q=3Dsubtle+energy+agricultur=
e&hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&oe=3DUTF-8&start=3D90&sa=3DN><img src=3D/nav_p=
age.gif width=3D16 height=3D26 alt=3D"" border=3D0><br>10</a><td nowrap><=
a href=3D/search?q=3Dsubtle+energy+agriculture&hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&o=
e=3DUTF-8&start=3D10&sa=3DN><img src=3D/nav_next.gif width=3D100 height=3D=
26 alt=3D"" border=3D0><br><span class=3Db>Next</span></a></table></div><=
center>
<br clear=3Dall><br><table border=3D0 cellpadding=3D3 cellspacing=3D0 ali=
gn=3Dcenter><tr><td nowrap>
<form method=3DGET action=3D/search><font size=3D-1><input type=3Dtext na=
me=3Dq size=3D31 maxlength=3D2048 value=3D"subtle energy agriculture"> <i=
nput type=3Dsubmit name=3DbtnG VALUE=3D"Google Search"><input type=3Dhidd=
en name=3Dhl value=3D"en"><input type=3Dhidden name=3Dlr value=3D""><inpu=
t type=3Dhidden name=3Die value=3D"UTF-8"><input type=3Dhidden name=3Doe =
value=3D"UTF-8"> <a href=3D/swr?q=3Dsubtle+energy+agriculture&hl=3Den&lr=3D=
&ie=3DUTF-8&oe=3DUTF-8&swrnum=3D29500>Search&nbsp;within&nbsp;results</a>=
</font></form></table><p><font size=3D-1 class=3Dp>Dissatisfied with your=
 search results? <a href=3D/quality_form?q=3Dsubtle+energy+agriculture&hl=
=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&oe=3DUTF-8 target=3D_blank>Help us improve.</a></f=
ont></center><center><p><hr class=3Dz><table width=3D100% cellpadding=3D2=
 cellspacing=3D0 border=3D0><tr><td class=3Dt align=3Dcenter><font size=3D=
-1><a href=3D"http://www.google.com/">Google&nbsp;Home</a> - <a href=3D"/=
ads/">Advertise&nbsp;with&nbsp;Us</a> - <a href=3D"/services/">Search&nbs=
p;Solutions</a> - <a href=3D"/options/">Services&nbsp;&amp;&nbsp;Tools</a=
> - <a href=3D/about.html>Jobs,&nbsp;Press,&nbsp;&amp;&nbsp;Help</a></fon=
t></table><br><font size=3D-1 class=3Dp>&copy;2002 Google</font></center>=
</body></html>

--------------060004000300030000050308--



.

From - Tue Dec 03 22:25:48 2002
X-UIDL: 322733733
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A1A12DB008A; Tue, 03 Dec 2002 22:08:17 -0500
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A1B32238006A; Tue, 03 Dec 2002 22:08:35 -0500
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0000037D@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 22:09:00 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 0135 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Tue, 3 Dec 2002 22:09:00 -0500
Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (mail-02.iinet.net.au) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu
          (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id
          <0.0000037C@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 22:08:59 -0500
Received: (qmail 5706 invoked from network); 4 Dec 2002 03:06:57 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO dmflkwfouhswsa) (203.59.200.138) by
          mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 4 Dec 2002 03:06:57 -0000
References:  <20021203221744.12370.qmail@web21206.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106
Message-ID:  <9a5001c29b41$ccbaf820$44a83bcb@dmflkwfouhswsa>
Date:         Wed, 4 Dec 2002 11:03:48 +0800
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         David Menne <menne@IINET.NET.AU>
Subject: Re: paramagnetic dusts
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.235]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322733733
Status: U

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dale Wilson" <nosliwelad@YAHOO.COM>
To: <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 6:17 AM
Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] paramagnetic dusts


> David and Alan,
>
> Could it be that the amount of paramagnetism in rock dust is mostly a
> reflection of the iron content?  There are not very many stably
> paramagnetic elements, and the most common is iron.  Maybe finely
> ground rock dust high in iron produces plant growth responses under
> some conditions because it supplies iron.

>
Magnetizable minerals include the ferromagnetic minerals (strongly
magnetizable) and any of the paramagnetic (moderately magnetizable) minerals
and other substances.

The former include magnetite, hematite, iron titanium oxides, pyrrhotite,
maghemite, greigite and goethite, minerals capable of acquiring remnant
magnetization and useful for paleomagnetic studies.

The latter include a broad array of substances all of which contain Fe2+,
Fe3+, or Mn2+ ions.  These paramagnetic minerals may include clay minerals
(chlorite, smectite and glauconite), iron and manganese carbonates
(siderite, rhodochrosite), ferromagnesian silicates (olivine, amphiboles,
pyroxenes, etc.), as well as a variety of ferric-oxyhydroxide mineraloids.

Regarding paramagnetism, I cannot see that ferromagnetism should not offer
very similar effects.

It is only in the magnitude and linearity of the magnetic permeability that
they differ.

A simple definition of paramagnetism is that the atoms or molecules of a
paramagnetic substance have a net magnetic spin such that the spins are
capable of being temporarily aligned in the direction of an applied
electromagnetic field when they are placed in that field. This produces an
internal magnetic field (magnetic moment). They differ from magnetic
substances (such as iron, nickel, & cobalt) where such spins remain aligned
even when they are out of the applied field, e.g. are permanent.

Magnetic susceptibility is measured, according to the physics handbook, in
millionths of a CGS unit (Centimeters Grams Second), 1 x 10[- 6] CGS, or
microCGS.

Ferromagnetic effects should be far greater [effective].

The fact that coarser rock crystals demonstrate better performance is
interestingly supported by the theory that coarse paramagnetic crystals
should draw in magnetic fields slightly, depleting the surrounding soil :
effectively acting as magnetic lenses.

Possibly at suitably oriented sharp points, the local magnetic intensity is
raised [But very marginally !!! Almost undetectably small - the
magnetisation vector of paramagnetic materials is about 4 orders of
magnitude lower than the
local magnetic field strength of the earth].

One should be able to achieve as much, and more, with tiny quantities of
ferromagnetics : 1 atom of ferromagnetic will effect the same change as
1000000000 atoms of a paramagnetic.

This makes me think it is not the paramagnetism which causes the effects, it
is possibly just fortituous that another favourable property is directly
related to paramagnetism. My mind [conditioned by conventional scientific
training] can only conceive of an electric phenomenon as alluded to in your
explanation.

A description of what and how the Ptotovale metal detectors work sheds a but
moe light on the above :

The Pulse Induction technique used by all of Protovale's metal locators
should respond well to metallic good conductors in bulk, weakly to poor
conductors, and not at all to purely magnetic non-conductors. Nevertheless,
a small number of situations exist where a significant signal is received
from certain magnetic minerals.

To understand the origin of these occasional spurious signals, it is
necessary to consider both the P.I. technique and the mechanism of magnetic
phenomena.

In the P.I. method, pulses of current are repeatedly sent through a coil in
the search head, and produce a pulsed magnetic field which propagates to the
target. At the instant of switch-off of this primary field, a large
transient back-emf voltage is induced in the coil which however only lasts
for a few microseconds after which there is no voltage across the coil until
the switch-on of the next pulse.

The switch-off will also induce eddy-currents to flow in any conductive
target present; since there is no source of energy to maintain them, they
will decay away but nevertheless persist for a time of several to a few
hundred microseconds, ie for longer than the primary switch-off transient.
These eddy-currents generate a secondary magnetic field which propagates
back to the search head and induces a voltage in the same coil that
generated the primary field pulse. The electronics of the receiver circuit
samples the coil voltage after a delay which is long enough to miss the
primary back-emf spike, but short enough to include the eddy-current signal
(if present).

Poorly-conducting materials such as thin foil and alloys such as stainless
steel produce a signal with a very rapid decay time comparable to the
sampling delay in the receiver circuit: careful selection of this delay time
(and of other related pulse-widths) enables an instrument to be set to
either detect or ignore such objects. The ionic conductivity of salt or
brackish water is so low (by comparison) that any signals generated decay
away completely within the delay time, and so generate no response.

A purely magnetic non-conductor, such as ferrite and most magnetic minerals,
will become magnetised by the primary field and will de-magnetise
immediately on the removal of the primary field, and so will not induce any
signal in the coil during the delayed sample. A conductor which is also
magnetic (ferrous) will produce a signal in exactly the same way as a
non-magnetic conductor, but the strength of the response will be magnified
by the effective permeability of the target (which depends on shape and
orientation as well as on the absolute value of the relative permeability of
the material).

The above list of examples should account for all target types, but there
remains one further phenomenon: magnetic viscosity. Here the material is
non-conductive, so eddy-currents are not generated. The material exhibits a
magnetic permeability (or susceptibility), but this should not generate any
signal during sampling. However the term "viscous" refers to the fact that
the induced magnetisation does not vary instantaneously with applied field,
but changes sluggishly, so that at a finite time after the primary
switch-off the magnetisation is still present and reducing; this produces a
signal of much the same time-characteristics as an eddy-current signal and
so does generate a response in the detector.


David Menne : http://www.plantsfood.com

"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we
created them" - Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

"Only the small secrets need to be protected. The big ones are kept secret
by public incredulity" - Marshall McLuhan (1911-1980)

>

.

From - Tue Dec 10 21:45:22 2002
X-UIDL: 322733969
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AD771B17003E; Sun, 08 Dec 2002 17:53:43 -0500
Received: from mpls-qmqp-01.inet.qwest.net [63.231.195.112] by smtp.intrex.net
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AD7E117E008C; Sun, 08 Dec 2002 17:53:50 -0500
Received: (qmail 77668 invoked by uid 0); 8 Dec 2002 22:53:26 -0000
Received: from unknown (63.231.195.5)
  by mpls-qmqp-01.inet.qwest.net with QMQP; 8 Dec 2002 22:53:26 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO soilfoodweb.com) (63.224.202.158)
  by mpls-pop-05.inet.qwest.net with SMTP; 8 Dec 2002 22:53:25 -0000
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 14:56:46 -0800
Message-ID: <3DF3CE2E.2070505@soilfoodweb.com>
From: "Soil Foodweb, Inc." <info@soilfoodweb.com>
To: "ELAINE" <soilfoodweb@aol.com>
Organization: Soil Foodweb Inc.
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: SFI Dec 2002 In-text E-zine
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Declude-Sender: info@soilfoodweb.com [63.231.195.112]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
X-UIDL: 322733969
Status: U

December 2002 SFI E-ZINE
ADDENDUM TO THE THIRD EDITION COMPOST TEA BREWING MANUAL

This issue of the SFI E-zine is an addendum to the Compost
Tea Brewing Manual. Please add these pages to the
appropriate places in your manuals.

Its also a lot of grower experiences, practical information,
and lots of stories about tea. Enjoy!


Please add this to the Introduction: (page viii)

This is a time when forces of a very different nature too often
prevail - forces careless of life or deliberately destructive of it
and the essential web of living relationships.

My particular concern, as you know, is with the reckless use
of chemicals so unselective in their action that they should be
more appropriately be called biocides rather than pesticides.
Not even the most partisan defenders can claim that their toxic
effect is limited to insects or rodents or weeds or whatever the
target may be.

These are large problems and there is no easy solution. But
the problem must be faced. As you listen to the present
controversy about pesticides, I recommend that you ask
yourself - Who speaks? - And Why?"

Rachael Carson, 1963 address to The Garden Club of America

"Her speeches during the last year of her life reflect her moral
conviction that 'no civilization can wage relentless war on life
without destroying itself, and without losing the rights to be
called civilized."
LOST WOODS - Linda Lear

Contributed by Leon Hussy
-----------------------------------------------
Please add this to the Recipes section (page 45):

These recipes were developed for the 50-gallon Microb-
Brewer and THE AMOUNTS are not appropriate for other
compost tea makers. Please obtain information from the
person who sold you your compost tea maker about recipes
appropriate for your tea maker.

In general, observation suggests that simple bacterial food
resources should be restricted during the summer, since
addition of foods causes rapid bacterial and fungal growth,
with use of oxygen. When oxygen drops below 5 to 6 mg
oxygen per L, then undesirable organisms have been
observed to be able to out-compete the beneficial aerobic
organisms. Thus, in the summer, when oxygen is limited in
water because of temperature, high rates of growth means
the threshold of anaerobic conditions may be reached even
more rapidly. Therefore, restrict addition of simple sugars
and proteins in the summer.

Worm compost contains more simple food resources than
thermal compost, and thus addition of worm compost as
part of the compost mixtures suggests that simple sugars
should be even more carefully minimized. Worm compost
also supplies many growth hormones, proteins and the mucigel
from around the worms that can be suppressive to undesirable
bacteria and fungi.

With respect to the Soil Soup machines, no recipe is known
that results in the growth or survival of an acceptable amount
of fungi in these machines. The Soil Soup manufacturers
should develop these recipes.

With respect to the Growing Solutions machines, only
when using recipes developed by Hendrickus Schraven
have acceptable fungal levels been observed. Therefore,
those with GSI machines should interact with Hendrickus
Schraven for those recipes.

We are testing materials designed to suppress E. coli and
other human pathogens in tea. This only applies to tea
production if you are not certain that the compost you use
has E. coli in it. Properly made compost should not contain
E. coli. If the compost is made with plant material only, if
it has reached high enough, but not too high, temperature
for long enough, and remained aerobic during decomposition,
then E. coli and other human pathogens (as well as weed
seed and plant pathogens) will not be present. These
additives would only be necessary if manure-based compost
was used, and had not been tested for E. coli presence.

These data will be added to the Compost Tea Brewing
Manual when the experiments are finished.
------------------------------
Please add to - Is Compost Tea Doing the
Job? (page 51)

8. Fill a sealable plastic water jug half full with the compost
tea and leave overnight, sealed, in a warm area. After 24
hours, open the container. If the tea smells good, then it
probably contained enough oxygen that you should not
have to worry. But if it smells anaerobic, with any of the
anaerobic smells present, you want to reduce the bacterial
foods in your recipes.
---------------

Please add the following to the Grower
Experiences pages (pages 54 to 56)

Without the science, agriculture floundered along doing
rather well using natures accommodating systems.
Does nature average out the errors well enough to let
us work the system in simple approximations?
Ok so long as we don't introduce overload of
chemicals/ poisons etc?

 From Bob Norsen
-----------------------------
Bingo fellas!

We've been 3 years changing our system - still got a long
way to go - but here is the first and most noticeable 'difference'.

We moved off the normal acid fertiliser ' mon-ammonium
phosphate at very moderate rates as a starter down the
tube', to a non acid, blended, broadcast applied product.
I think its a dicalcic phosphate and has bio composted
lime sulphur, trace minerals added, a little lime, a little
paramagnetic rock (quarry fines not dust), a small
quantity of humate all radionically matched to our
soil samples. We put some bio brew on the stubble -
and again with our (reduced rate) herbicides. Sounds
complicated but the cost was comparable with our
conventional program.

What stuck out was on a paddock with soil types from
gray sandy loam through red to brown clay loam was
the much more even yield across the paddock - its one
of the things that I have come to expect and look for
as a sign that we are starting to make a little progress -
this completely in the face of the boffins who are
desperately flogging variable rate technology on
broadacre tillage and harvesting gear.

So yes I think nature does average out the errors, if we will
allow it, and maybe help a little.
Cheers all
Lloyd Charles
---------
 From James Sottilo:

I have a tree care company in East Hampton which is on the
east end of Long Island, New York. I cater to the rich
and famous and their estates.

We are a 100% natural company the only product we
have used this year with a EPA registration number has
been a little garlic barrier. We have gotten some amazing
results in turning trees around with not only CT but also
using a lot of correct food sources and native leaf litter.

It is close to impossible to find a good source of compost
on the East Coast some of the companies have root feeders
or high salt levels. I recommend using Pogo composting
out of Maryland, I know he tests on a regular basis.

I will post some pics in the upcoming days
(on compost_tea@yahoogroups.com) that shows some of
the projects we have done.

Besides using CT I have also found applications of Kelp
and liquid humates to be very effective in building a resistance
to spider mites. You might also want to add Rockdust to
hot water and let it dissolve then add that to you spray tank.

James
-------------------
 From Jeff L. 

There are giant vegetables and there are vegetables that
grow large. These are two different things.

Most giant vegetables are grown using special seeds of
varieties that grow larger then normal varieties. Growing
these larger than the average size requires tremendous
amounts of nutrients and water. Anyone can grow good,
large vegetables as long as they use these seeds and water
and feed like there is no tomorrow.

Many of the large vegetables grown in competition with
John Evans every summer and some of John's, too, are
from such seed. Many who compete with John at the fair
"force feed" chemical fertilizers and water and these grow
quite large vegetables. Some folks use organic foods and
these do well, too.

However, John Evans uses compost teas at least once a
week and no one else does. I have seen the tests on John's
tea and they are pretty bacterial and I know he uses mulch
which provides excellent protozoa so he gets full benefit of
soil foodweb nutrition and he adds a few little secret elements
to his tea to help out as well. His soil is so soft you can
stick your arm into it up to your elbow with no effort at all.
The tea is the difference between his crops and his neighbors.
They haven't been able to touch him using conventional methods
and every kooky scheme you can possibly imagine.

It is the tea. (It isn't Sunday so I won't brag about the
AlaskaHumus he uses and he grows in).

As a guy who has followed the big vegetable fights for years,
I know that the soil used and the tea, not the day light, is the
difference up here. Many in Anchorage, for example, use
the same seed but cannot get things to grow nearly as big
as they do just 20 minutes away in Palmer where John Evans
lives and grows his giants. That ain't because the light is different.
Both have the long days. Only one area can grow the big guys
and even there, they have to know exactly how to plant because
the horizon for the super soil doesn't exist everywhere now
that it has been disturbed so much.

As for normal vegetables and flowers growing bigger than normal,
I can only speak from personal testing and testing by those in my
office building. Some things grow bigger using teas and some
grow differently, not necessarily better. However, this was our
first summer testing. Here, carrots grown with tea this year,
again made with you know what, were the biggest any of us
had ever seen. Monsters from just regular chantes variety.
Sweet peas weredouble size in blind tests, both flowers and
stalk and several different kinds. Petunias and cosmos were
elongated, however. This comes from the tests of a bunch of
guys who were so addicted to experimenting with tea that we
made it once a week and applied it in prodigious quantities
on little yards and gardens. Winters are long up here.

As Doc E says; We gotta gather data and keep experimenting.

Cheers,
Jeff L
------------------------------


Please add to
Results from Compost Tea Applications (page 57)

FLAX PRODUCTION IN MB, CANADA USING SFI SYSTEM

A 2001 mid summer soil foodweb test showed this
field to have a Total Fungal Biomass of 180 and Total
Bacterial Biomass of 195, along with 150-160 lbs/acre
of Plant available N Supply from Predators. Based on
these numbers it should be possible to produce a crop
of flax without the addition of nitrogen fertilizer - but
would this really work?

Spring 2002 seedbed was prepared by adding 1 pint/acre
of Humic/Fulvic Acid and 1/2 gallon/acre molasses. Flax
seed was mixed with 1 lb/acre mycorrhizal innoculant and
planted with no other fertilizers added.

Mid summer root colonization test showed 90-94%
colonization of mycorrhizal fungi vs 0-6% on a conventional
field on the same farm. Weed re-growth throughout the later
part of the season, which is usually a problem in flax was minimal.

Final yield was excellent with a higher grain/straw yield than
conventionally managed fields on the same farm.

THANKS ELAINE FOR SHOWING US A BETTER WAY!!!!

Gerald Wiebe
-------------------

Fungal growth on composts with various fungal foods.

I conducted a short test of the interactions of various
commercial composts with the fungal foods we use in making
compost teas. Our interest was in creating a fungal dominated
tea for treatment of Phytopthora root rot on avocado trees.
In the panel of photos you can see how various food and
compost combinations generate different fungal growths and
that some composts are poor candidates for making fungal
extractions. Also I think you can see that some foods are
better at growing fungi in these composts. One combination,
fish hydrolase on Greenways Mulch (a greenwaste product made
by Greenways Environmental, Inc) produced explosive growth.
My best picks are Grangettos (a garden center in S. California)
compost and Greenways mulch with fish hydrolase and
perhaps Algamin kelp.

You can see there is a variety of fungi produced in these
combinations and I think that is important when thinking
about diversity of organisms in our teas. From Elaine
Inghams comments on the need for high diversity of
organisms it would seem prudent to select various compost
components and pre-treat them with more than one fungal
food before introduction into the tea extractor. Of course
these same mulches with grow fungi without any addition of
foods if they are kelp in a moist dark place but the addition
of various foods presents an opportunity to generate higher
numbers of fungi. The beauty and variety of fungi was
extraordinary. If anyone can help with identification of
these fungi please contact me.

David Loring, Project Leader
Southeast Asia Project
Dietrick Institute for Applied Insect Ecology
--------------------

 From Tom Jazsewski -

We have been producing CT on a commercial landscape
project in Las Vegas. We have successfully eliminated
most agricultural and landscape chemicals from our inventory.
Hopefully Michael Holmes will work with us to eliminate
Manage (nut grass control). It's our last chemical hurdle.

We have found that CT controls weeds, disease and with added
fish fertilizer provides all the nutrients needed by fescue turf
grasses. We have approximately 3 acres of turf.

This past summer we were able to skip water cycles for
up to 4 consecutive days. That's with temperatures in July
in excess of 110F with no signs of stress and full sun!!!

Our P. canariensis (palms) were identified as 10% having
been infected with Fusarium oxysporum 'canariensis'. The
disease appears to have been arrested, and no new trees
added to the infected list in 2 years. It's a wonderful sight
seeing the spray rig go out on to the property with a placard
reading, "Organic Compost Tea". No more tyvek suits and
breathing apparatus!

-----------
I sold my Kis brewer to a real estate agent&.three batches later his
greenhouse is devoid of mealy bugs and mites. Best of all the
white fly are history too!!!!!!!!

If only it would make the dirtboat faster!!!!!

Tom Jaszewski
www.dirtboat.com
702-595-7012
-------------------------------
 From Laura Sabourin, Ragdolls
We started our CT program prebloom , first spray May 28th.
We had very little downey mildew pressure this season so
never used copper all season.

I let the next two sprays go too long 13 and 11 days. PM started to
show in the Vinifera so we sprayed with sulphur. Good control till
mid August when we saw a little more PM so sulphur again. I
always resprayed CT 2-3 days after sulphur to re-establish microbes.

No sulphur after August 20th. At harvest I found 2-3 "patches' of PM
which affected only 1-2 vines each. In all cases the canopy was too
dense and it was obvious that the spray could not have reached the
inside leaves.

Next season we will stick with a 7-9 day schedule.
-------------------------------------------
Dear Elaine,

Thanks for the information. I see you will be coming to Perth
in the future I will be looking forward to this and will be advising
people I know over here to try and get to the seminar.

The opening size on the fogger is 6mm. The fogger works on
a venturi principle a fan is used to push air through a drum at
74 miles per hour this sucks out the liquid through the 6mm
pipe. The droplet size created is 8.5 micron to 30 microns.
This air and droplet mix is forced into the greenhouse and
fills the house with a fog. The droplets do not collide with
anything but float onto the leaves of the cucumbers. Would
the effect of being hit by the air at 74 miles per hour kill the
fungi??

I am located in Western Australia, if there are particular
inoculums of fungi available for control of Powdery the
information would be greatly appreciated, we are always
looking to improve things. We are using CT to control
Powdery on vines, so far so good (3 months) and Strawberries (4 months).

Regards Mike Harvey.
------------------

Identifying trends in our landscapes
(by Chris Henggeler, November 2002)

In August 2002 Dr Elaine Ingham first visited the
Kimberley (Australia) as a result of a local demand
for leading edge knowledge about soil biology.
Dr Ingham certainly left us much to ponder over.
With 37 other local and interstate participants I
attended her well presented two-day course.

We were presented with a tool that may well
help us remove bureaucratic speculation from
broader land management issues: Soilfoodweb
testing. This powerful technology at the other
end of the spectrum from GIS technology enables
us to scientifically substantiate trends picked up
visually or by GIS thereby enhancing the scientific
validity of ground-truthing.

I suspect that the loss of large trees, the increased
bare ground and the eroding soils that we land
managers observe in many areas in this region,
amount to "structural collapse" as a consequence
of loss of remaining life and structure in our soils.
As there is little measurable production in many of
these vast and rugged water catchment areas we
currently rely on the opinions of individuals. If what
I suspect proves to really be the case, we need
more data (to establish/confirm trends) urgently.
It is equally important to have data and monitoring
mechanisms in place that enable us to tell if/when
our commercial "profits" are at the expense of
long-term production potential. It seems the
monitoring tool that Soil-foodweb Inc offers,
would give us sufficient data to remove much
of the current speculation that dominates in
rangeland debates. A further consideration is
that such data offers managers the proof of their
ability to enhance, mine or destroy biodiversity.

On Kachana we consider the initiation of soil-foodweb
testing to be an important step to better
identify trend indicators. Those of us out in
the field making day to day decisions which
affect the land need to get a better understanding


of the (largely invisible) chain of reactions caused by
management actions. We need more scientifically
valid data to compliment other results of our management.

On Kachana we also reason that solid soil-foodweb
data, to compliment the visible results we have been
getting as a consequence of our management, will assist
us in attracting further attention from local and overseas
learning institutions.

Early October 2002 we had Patrick (a Student from the
Swiss Federal Institute of Technology Zurich http://www.ethz.ch)
take and send in five composite samples for testing:
Three from our Millennium Project, one from Cockatoo
Creek (a reclaimed former wetland) and one from Karl's
Vlei (a wetland forest area that we are restoring). (The latter
two areas have a "no fire" history of over eleven years which
is a rarity in this region, given that most of our country burns
every 3 to 7 years as a result of: negligently lit fires or arson;
lightning strikes; planned wet season or aerial burns to reduce
fuel loads; experimental fires.) All five results despite a remarkable
spectrum of variation indicate basically dysfunctional and
unhealthy soil-foodwebs. (We are ten years down the track
of advocating biological enhancement, but we obviously still
have a very long way to go and a lot more to learn&)

Given that in a 700 mm (or higher) rainfall area situated in
our latitude, there should be biological activity in the soils
around the clock every day of the year. We figured that
the most telling data would be obtained when seasonal
conditions are least conducive to plant growth, so we
chose the end of the dry season. September/October
after the cool winter period when activity should be
beginning to accelerate, but also when it can become
extremely hot, and violent storms can do the most
damage. A further practical consideration that favours
monitoring in this instance is that we obtain data to
compliment the above ground biological monitoring
which also takes place at this time.

Our monitoring results are made available on request
or at our Annual Kachana Landscape Management
Workshops which take place in the first week of
September each year.

---------------------

I thought this might be of interest to the grape growers
in our group. It comes from a newsletter from
http://www.organicfarms.com.au/
Scott

Rosnay Organic Wines, founded by the Statham and Gardner
families of Rosnay Organic Farms, Canowindra, entered its
first two organic wines in this, their first wine show.

The result was astounding - Rosnay Organic won Best Red of
the Show and silver and bronze medals for the 2001 Organic
Shiraz and 2002 Organic Chardonnay respectively.

So how can organic farming, dismissed by the high input,
chemical farming sector, do so well in an open class wine
judging?

The Statham family, formerly extensive wool and beef
producers at Barraba in northern NSW, never were big users
of agrochemicals. Through low input pastoral management
Richard Statham produced some of the finest wool in the
district, claiming many Barraba Show prizes.

"My medico father had an interest in organic gardening and
biodynamics, which my son Sam continued to explore in
Europe and New Zealand", said Rosnay founder, Richard
Statham

"Looking to move into a new industry, we found that organic
and biodynamic grape growers were in fact producing some
very good wine. For example, in 1997 Settlers Ridge (WA's
Margaret River) won a silver medal at the prestigious Perth
Royal Show with its very first Shiraz-Cabernet vintage.
Cassegrain Wines at Port Macquarie, Botobolar Wines at
Mudgee, Temple Bruer Wines at Langhorne Creek, Millton
Estate in New Zealand, and M. Chapoutier in France all
helped inspire us to try organic and biodynamic systems."
said Richard.

The Statham family planted their first vines at "Rosnay",
Canowindra in 1997, using organic methods from the outset
and attaining certification as conversion to organic within
their first year. Five years later, the work is paying off,
with the resulting wines well balanced and flavoursome.

"After site and variety selection, we see biological
activity in the soil as the key to unlocking the unique
flavours of a vineyard. Soil life is developed through
correct mineral balance, and generous application of
organic matter, such as composted manures and straw. Plant
health is assisted with organic fish and seaweed sprays,
and natural sulfur to prevent powdery mildew", Richard
explained
------------------------
I have been spraying CT religiously during the growing
season every 7 days for the past 3 years. Started with
a Microb-brewer plus we now have a Sotillo brewer
and my staff has put together a brewer (working with
Paul Wagner on this and it looks pretty good). In 3
years we have reduced fungicide applications on the
tees and fairways about 70%, on the whole course
fertilizer was reduced 28%, and water use about 18%.
We have had good results with the greens but nothing
I want quantify at this time. Keep in mind CT is part of
our whole program with a goal of being sustainable.
Don't know when or if but that is my goal. As far as
your brewer is concerned feel free to send me one and
I will put it in the mix and let you know how it works.
Charlie Clark
-------------

Hi Elaine,

We've learned a lot this year! Anne Donahue bought
one of the compost tea makers and we are really
promoting the use of compost tea at all our booths
and in our group of Compost Specialists. We made
a simple one and gave it away at our last meeting.
I've made one at home out of a 5 gallon bucket and
an aquarium pump, tubing and airstone we show at
the Fair and Home Shows and other places. I think
it is more accessible to the public than the more
expensive ones. A lot of folks want the benefits but
can't generate enough compost for the entire garden
but as you have said in your lectures they can make
enough for the tea. So we are really pushing that.
I think next year in our displays we'll have an entire
photo display that really explains and promotes compost
tea. It is the hands down favorite when Anne Donahue
gives it away at the Fair.

One thing I have learned is that with the 9" airstone
and a single pump I seem to generate good airflow
and a good head of foam which seems to
indicate good bacteria count. In an article you wrote
we pass out, you recommend 3 airstones. My single
airstone gets nice and slimy which seems to
me to indicate good bacteria build. But I remember
you saying that if it goes longer than 3 days to just add
more molasses and it can brew up to 5 days. I didn't
find that to be good. After three days even with the
additional molasses the count seemed to drop as I
began to get less foam and it started to stink a bit.
So it would seem that the addition of molasses isn't
sufficient to keep the aerobic bacteria building. Is there a
peak for the bacteria no matter how much food source
there is in the five gallon bucket? Is there an
indicator for good fungus count?

We are going to be experimenting with the brewer
we bought and a home brew system and trying to
figure out if there is a significant difference between
the end brew. Our goal is to get folks hooked on
the whole concept of compost tea and into the cycle.
So for the general public, cheaper and immediately
accessible is better. I had great luck with using the
tea I brewed on my roses this year so next year I am
going to try a controlled experiement (home style of
course!) and document it with photos, etc. It gets the
publics attention as the rose and its diseases seem to be a real
hook when preaching the benefits of compost and tea.

We had great fun with the compost tea this year so
will be capitalizing on it next year. Thanks for all the
good information and support!

Cindy Wise

Round 2 -
Hi Elaine,

We bought the KIS brewer. We are hoping next
year to have a project where we brew in a homemade
brewer and the KIS brewer and compare results in
home gardens on a regular cycle. I had the good
(and bad results) from my simple home set up that
uses just one pump and one airstone. There is a
difference in airstones, we found the round ones
do a better job of aeration but I also have had good
results from the longest rectangular ones I can fit into
the bottom of a five gallon bucket. Also it makes a
difference if you use the shortest possible piece of
tubing, you get more force in the airflow through the
airstone. I am also using a paint strainer bag loosely
filled (about 2 quarts) with compost instead of
dumping it directly into the bottom of the bucket.
I get good flow through the bag (makes me think
of Lipton's old commercials!) and it is a lot less
messy when I am done brewing. A major
consideration for many folks, they don't have to
strain a five gallon bucket.

I added WAYYYY too much molasses then.
I added an additional tablespoon to the mix on
day three and it did go anaerobic. Why would
that be? Why would more food cause anaerobic
bacteria build toward the end of the cycle when
initially it builds aerobic bacteria? Is it because the
populations are maxed out from the compost source?
We are telling folks to not let it go more than three
days because of that anaerobic potential. I find it
harder to wait longer than that anyway!

I am using vermicompost in my tea and it is a magic
elixir for me. Compost tea and compost in general is
so logical I find it difficult to think of it as "alternative."

Feel free to pass along what I have shared in any way
you please. You are doing a great service to us all!

Cindy
-------------------


This quote was from Allan Balliet, and I appreciate what it means:

An old Cherokee is teaching his grandson about life.

"A fight is going on inside me," he said to the boy.
"It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves.
One is evil - he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed,
arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies,
false pride, superiority, and ego."

He continued, "The other is good - he is joy, peace,
love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence,
empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith.

The same fight is going on inside you 
and inside every other person, too."

The grandson thought about it for a minute and
then asked his grandfather, "Which wolf will win?"

The old Cherokee simply replies, "The one you feed."
-----------------




.

From - Sat Dec 14 11:07:52 2002
X-UIDL: 322734109
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A894AE000F4; Sat, 14 Dec 2002 00:58:44 -0500
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A87CA3FF00B2; Sat, 14 Dec 2002 00:58:20 -0500
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00002413@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sat, 14 Dec 2002 0:58:46 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 4233 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sat, 14 Dec 2002 00:58:46 -0500
Received: from imo-r05.mx.aol.com by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT
          v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0000240F@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sat, 14 Dec 2002
          0:58:46 -0500
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-r05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id
          d.14a.18d99f20 (4312) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sat, 14 Dec
          2002 00:58:07 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="part1_14a.18d99f20.2b2c226f_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows AU sub 10503
Message-ID:  <14a.18d99f20.2b2c226f@aol.com>
Date:         Sat, 14 Dec 2002 00:58:07 EST
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Beneficial Soil Microbia
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg*lfl**INTREX*-NET@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.235]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322734109
Status: U

--part1_14a.18d99f20.2b2c226f_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Please read Steve Diver's post on the differences between aerobic,
fermentative and putrefactive anaerobes.

There isn't just one kind of anaerobic bacteria.

Elaine
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
www.soilfoodweb.com

--part1_14a.18d99f20.2b2c226f_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">Please read Steve Diver's post on the differences between aerobic, fermentative and putrefactive anaerobes.<BR>
<BR>
There isn't just one kind of anaerobic bacteria.<BR>
<BR>
Elaine<BR>
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.<BR>
www.soilfoodweb.com</FONT></HTML>

--part1_14a.18d99f20.2b2c226f_boundary--

.

From - Sun Dec 15 10:35:47 2002
X-UIDL: 322734138
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A08AAC100E2; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 01:26:18 -0500
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A070BEA200B2; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 01:25:52 -0500
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00002511@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; 15 Dec 2002 1:26:21 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 4505 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sun, 15 Dec 2002 01:26:21 -0500
Received: from imo-m02.mx.aol.com by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT
          v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00002510@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; 15 Dec 2002
          1:26:20 -0500
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-m02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id
          d.168.1894d729 (4222) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sun, 15 Dec
          2002 01:25:43 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="part1_168.1894d729.2b2d7a67_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows AU sub 10503
Message-ID:  <168.1894d729.2b2d7a67@aol.com>
Date:         Sun, 15 Dec 2002 01:25:43 EST
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Beneficial Soil Microbes
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.235]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322734138
Status: U

--part1_168.1894d729.2b2d7a67_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I'll leave the EM aspects for EM folks to answer.

But, you ask a question about the specificity of the organisms in soil.  Are
they specific to the soil, to the plant species, the temperature, moisture,
clay, organic matter, humidity, the kind of earthworm, microarthropod,
nematodes, or what?

Maybe there are some generalist species.  How much do the species change
through the course of the day or week, or year?  They change based on the
things listed above.

What happens when a weed arrives?  Or a new plant species?  What happens when
a bird lands on the soil?  What happens when a new bacterial species arrives
that has not been there before?  What if that species is better able to
survive under the conditions in the system than the organism already there?

As plants species change through the course of succession, do the bacteria,
fungal, protozoan and nematode species change?  Yes they do.  So, how can
that change occur if nothing that arrives in the soil can survive?

You make soil sound like a static thing, once the organisms are there, they
never change.  That's a very incorrect view.  Soil is dynamic, changing,
shifting, one-organism waking up, others going to sleep and everything
in-between.  There is no set absolute group of organisms in any soil.  It is
a moving target, changing as each organism alters and changes soil
properties.

What drives succession?  What we see is that there's a good probability that
the ratio of fungi to bacteria drive succession.  This measure certainly
changes in a consistent pattern through succession.  I am about to get the
next paper published, with data showing how that ratio changes, given
hundreds of samples taken in each ecosystem, each successional stage.

Species composition does not remain static.  Nor does the precise number of
individuals per each species on each day, but there's a range within which
these numbers revolve.

Think of the fact that protozoa eat 10,000 bacteria a day per individual, and
there are 10,000's of thousands of protozoa per gram of soil.  Do you suppose
that might leave a foothold open for a new species to survive, if the
conditions are right?

How many species of bacteria and fungi present after the soil has been
treated with a fungicide?  A bactericide?  A nematicide?  Every pesticide
that we have ever tested has non-target organism effects.  You are killing
someone beneficial in soil when you use any toxic chemical.

High levels of inorganic fertilizer kills soil organisms too.  After years of
pesticides and fertilizer applications, is the normal number or species
diversity of organisms still present in any soil?

Absolutely not.  The proper set of organisms needs to be added back into the
soil.  Addition of compost, or compost tea, does that.  The beneficial
organisms are no longer present in soil after being killed by toxic
chemicals.  But the se organisms do not magically arrive on the wind.
Because they have been killed in the soils upwind too.  So, where do we find
the inoculum to put these missing beneficial organisms back?

Compost, compost tea.  BUT it has to be properly made compost, not some
putrefying organic matter.  You don't have the beneficial organisms in a
stinky, smelly mess.

EM contains 80 species of bacteria and three species of fungi.  Enough
species?  Can you replace lost functional groups of organisms with just 80
species of bacteria?

What if you have also lost fungal species?  Protozoa?  Beneficial nematodes?
The EM inoculum is not adequate.

How many species of bacteria and fungi in compost?  In compost tea?  In soil?


Amazingly enough, the organic matter that is in compost is quite similar to,
although perhaps more diverse than, the litter layer in any ecosystems.  Mix
the compost into the soil - you mimic the action of earthworms, cow hooves,
buffalo, elk, deer.

Compost addition adds the foods to feed the organisms, and the organisms.
You replace lost species.  The right ones?  Let the plant choose the right
organisms, based on the exudates coming from the roots.  If the organism was
missing, but best adapted to the conditions in the soil, in the rhizosphere,
in the litter layer, the bacterium, or fungus, or protozoan, or nematode,
etc, will survive and grow.

It's a dynamic system, in equilibrium, constantly improving if not disturbed.
 Stop thinking as if it is static, set, not capable of change.  Which
organisms were killed and need to be put back?  Add them by adding compost.
We have no better resource, no easier way of adding a HUGE diversity of these
needed organisms than by using good, aerobic compost, or compost tea.


Elaine
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
www.soilfoodweb.com

--part1_168.1894d729.2b2d7a67_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">I'll leave the EM aspects for EM folks to answer.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
But, you ask a question about the specificity of the organisms in soil.&nbsp; Are they specific to the soil, to the plant species, the temperature, moisture, clay, organic matter, humidity, the kind of earthworm, microarthropod, nematodes, or what?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Maybe there are some generalist species.&nbsp; How much do the species change through the course of the day or week, or year?&nbsp; They change based on the things listed above.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
What happens when a weed arrives?&nbsp; Or a new plant species?&nbsp; What happens when a bird lands on the soil?&nbsp; What happens when a new bacterial species arrives that has not been there before?&nbsp; What if that species is better able to survive under the conditions in the system than the organism already there?<BR>
<BR>
As plants species change through the course of succession, do the bacteria, fungal, protozoan and nematode species change?&nbsp; Yes they do.&nbsp; So, how can that change occur if nothing that arrives in the soil can survive?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
You make soil sound like a static thing, once the organisms are there, they never change.&nbsp; That's a very incorrect view.&nbsp; Soil is dynamic, changing, shifting, one-organism waking up, others going to sleep and everything in-between.&nbsp; There is no set absolute group of organisms in any soil.&nbsp; It is a moving target, changing as each organism alters and changes soil properties.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
What drives succession?&nbsp; What we see is that there's a good probability that the ratio of fungi to bacteria drive succession.&nbsp; This measure certainly changes in a consistent pattern through succession.&nbsp; I am about to get the next paper published, with data showing how that ratio changes, given hundreds of samples taken in each ecosystem, each successional stage.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Species composition does not remain static.&nbsp; Nor does the precise number of individuals per each species on each day, but there's a range within which these numbers revolve. <BR>
<BR>
Think of the fact that protozoa eat 10,000 bacteria a day per individual, and there are 10,000's of thousands of protozoa per gram of soil.&nbsp; Do you suppose that might leave a foothold open for a new species to survive, if the conditions are right?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
How many species of bacteria and fungi present after the soil has been treated with a fungicide?&nbsp; A bactericide?&nbsp; A nematicide?&nbsp; Every pesticide that we have ever tested has non-target organism effects.&nbsp; You are killing someone beneficial in soil when you use any toxic chemical.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
High levels of inorganic fertilizer kills soil organisms too.&nbsp; After years of pesticides and fertilizer applications, is the normal number or species diversity of organisms still present in any soil?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Absolutely not.&nbsp; The proper set of organisms needs to be added back into the soil.&nbsp; Addition of compost, or compost tea, does that.&nbsp; The beneficial organisms are no longer present in soil after being killed by toxic chemicals.&nbsp; But the se organisms do not magically arrive on the wind.&nbsp; Because they have been killed in the soils upwind too.&nbsp; So, where do we find the inoculum to put these missing beneficial organisms back?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Compost, compost tea.&nbsp; BUT it has to be properly made compost, not some putrefying organic matter.&nbsp; You don't have the beneficial organisms in a stinky, smelly mess.<BR>
<BR>
EM contains 80 species of bacteria and three species of fungi.&nbsp; Enough species?&nbsp; Can you replace lost functional groups of organisms with just 80 species of bacteria? <BR>
<BR>
What if you have also lost fungal species?&nbsp; Protozoa?&nbsp; Beneficial nematodes?&nbsp; The EM inoculum is not adequate. <BR>
<BR>
How many species of bacteria and fungi in compost?&nbsp; In compost tea?&nbsp; In soil? <BR>
<BR>
Amazingly enough, the organic matter that is in compost is quite similar to, although perhaps more diverse than, the litter layer in any ecosystems.&nbsp; Mix the compost into the soil - you mimic the action of earthworms, cow hooves, buffalo, elk, deer.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Compost addition adds the foods to feed the organisms, and the organisms.&nbsp; You replace lost species.&nbsp; The right ones?&nbsp; Let the plant choose the right organisms, based on the exudates coming from the roots.&nbsp; If the organism was missing, but best adapted to the conditions in the soil, in the rhizosphere, in the litter layer, the bacterium, or fungus, or protozoan, or nematode, etc, will survive and grow.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
It's a dynamic system, in equilibrium, constantly improving if not disturbed.&nbsp; Stop thinking as if it is static, set, not capable of change.&nbsp; Which organisms were killed and need to be put back?&nbsp; Add them by adding compost.&nbsp;&nbsp; We have no better resource, no easier way of adding a HUGE diversity of these needed organisms than by using good, aerobic compost, or compost tea.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Elaine<BR>
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.<BR>
www.soilfoodweb.com</FONT></HTML>

--part1_168.1894d729.2b2d7a67_boundary--

.

From - Thu Dec 19 12:03:45 2002
X-UIDL: 322734308
X-Mozilla-Status: 0010
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A7954EA90126; Thu, 19 Dec 2002 11:45:09 -0500
Received: from happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu [152.2.210.119] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A781E3C00D6; Thu, 19 Dec 2002 11:44:49 -0500
Received: from happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id F1E9620061; Thu, 19 Dec 2002 11:44:12 -0500 (EST)
Delivered-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from txsmtp02.texas.rr.com (smtp2.texas.rr.com [24.93.36.230])
	by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11E4520047
	for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>; Thu, 19 Dec 2002 11:43:39 -0500 (EST)
Received: from kevin (cs671038-8.houston.rr.com [67.10.38.8])
	by txsmtp02.texas.rr.com (8.12.5/8.12.2) with ESMTP id gBJGgCSt015518
	for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>; Thu, 19 Dec 2002 11:42:13 -0500 (EST)
From: "Kevin email" <ktopek@houston.rr.com>
To: <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: RE: [permaculture] Drylands-pantas instead of compost
Message-ID: <MCBBIEAEFKEGKKIAPGMNMEJCCBAA.ktopek@houston.rr.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0)
Importance: Normal
In-Reply-To: <003d01c2a77a$1decc4a0$88c0da42@oemcomputer>
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Sender: permaculture-admin@lists.ibiblio.org
Errors-To: permaculture-admin@lists.ibiblio.org
X-BeenThere: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
List-Help: <mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=help>
List-Post: <mailto:permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
	<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
List-Id: permaculture <permaculture.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
	<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/>
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 10:43:52 -0600
X-Declude-Sender: permaculture-admin@lists.ibiblio.org [152.2.210.119]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
X-UIDL: 322734308
Status: U

Daniel,

Most animal manure is good, because the bacterial mix gets incorporated into
the soil. The new bacteria are the concentrators of underutilized
nutritional components available in the soil. From there the newly
introduced bacteria help change the nature of the soil, particularly by
being digested by detritivores and excreted again. The soil becomes more
fertile, since a larger variety of plant nutritional components become
available for absorption, particularly by mycorrhizal fungi and then passed
on to plants through their root system.

The manure from carnivores is more acidic than from vegetarians. It can also
carry pathogens that will prey upon humans. Carnivore manure is best kept in
sheet mulch around crops that are ornamental or will not come in contact
with soil splash.

Small amounts of manure or compost with manure will innoculate much larger
areas than where directly applied. Detritivores carry these bacteria along
and deposit them elsewhere. Fertility increases rapidly, within a growing
season, after any application of new bacteria. Chook, bunny, cow, horse,
sheep, goat, wild bird, etc... manure is all very helpful.

Hope this helps, Kevin

-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture-admin@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:permaculture-admin@lists.ibiblio.org]On Behalf Of RiverValley
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 10:17 AM
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Drylands-pantas instead of compost


Kevin,

Could you give us more information about using animals for bacterial
inoculation.  Are all animal manures good for this?

thanks,
Daniel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin email" <ktopek@houston.rr.com>
To: <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 8:13 AM
Subject: RE: [permaculture] Drylands-pantas instead of compost


> Dear Marsha,
>
> Try to innoculate the land with some animal manure/bacteria either by
> letting the critters browse or sprinking manure or compost with manure. It
> will make future fertility and productivity that much greater than if you
do
> not do it.
>
> !Feliz Navidad! Kevin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: permaculture-admin@lists.ibiblio.org
> [mailto:permaculture-admin@lists.ibiblio.org]On Behalf Of Marsha Hanzi
> Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 9:07 AM
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: [permaculture] Drylands-pantas instead of compost
>
>
> Bom dia!
> Some time ago I asked about sheet-composting in dry conditions, with some
> very useful feeback from the list.
>
> I would just like to give you the feedback that I came to the conclusion
> that the best way to kick-start restortion of really degraded land in
> drylands is planting Opuntia ( a cactus used for animal forrage here) one
> per meter. You could feel immediately that the field had gained life, with
> miniture wind-braks as well as a reserve of humidity. Now with the first
> rains we planted castor with each opuntia  , 3 cowpeas between each on the
> line, a cassava in the center ( one per meter), and  a cocktail of
> catch-crops ( sesame, amaranth, radishes, and a native legume) every 50cm,
> filling up the rest of the space with jackbeans.  In spite of very little
> rain, things have come up marvellously, and received enough rain, in a
> second downpour, to develop well.  These are occasional summer
> thundershowers, not dependable as are our rains of April-May, so we are
> playing in the lottery, so to speak...But even if the crops fail, a good
> amount of organic material is being  created onsite.
>
> Of course the areas ( a small portion) where I actually did manage to
spread
> the sawdust compost are reacting a bit better than the others-- one can
see
> a result , but the area I actually managed to cover is only about
one-tenth
> of the whole,  after days and days of effort, whereas I needed a team of
six
> workers for one day to plant the whole area with opuntia, and can myself
>  with a manual planter) do all the rest in two days time--
>
> The advantage of opuntia is that you can ( and should) plant before the
> rains come.  Another advantage is that it has a very high market value as
> emergency forrage for cattle during droughts, so the investment will
return
> in a years time ( I dont plan to have animals for the next two or three
> years...)
>
> Though you might be interested in this update..
>
> Marsha Hanzi
> Bahia, Brazil
> www.permacultura-bahia.org.br
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>
>
>

_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture


_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture

.

From - Tue Dec 31 21:15:35 2002
X-UIDL: 322734744
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A5A736A00D6; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:36:39 -0500
Received: from happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu [152.2.210.119] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A5602AC40126; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:35:28 -0500
Received: from happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id EA9C620034; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:35:00 -0500 (EST)
Delivered-To: organicviticulture@lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from pop.hevanet.com (pop.hevanet.com [198.5.254.15])
	by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09D2920034
	for <organicviticulture@lists.ibiblio.org>; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:34:06 -0500 (EST)
Received: from [130.94.163.98] (ts05-ip78.hevanet.com [130.94.163.98])
	by pop.hevanet.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gBVHYQ558797;
	Tue, 31 Dec 2002 09:34:26 -0800 (PST)
User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022
From: "Lon J. Rombough" <lonrom@hevanet.com>
To: Agrisynergy <Agrisynergy@maelstrom.stjohns.edu>,
	organicviticulture <organicviticulture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <BA371524.9170%lonrom@hevanet.com>
In-Reply-To: <LYRIS-22236-17462-2002.12.31-08.04.11--lonrom#hevanet.com@ls.ars.usda.gov>
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/alternative;
   boundary="MS_Mac_OE_3124172069_288526_MIME_Part"
Subject: [organicviticulture] FW: Sexual Forms of 2 Helpful Fungi Are Found
Sender: organicviticulture-admin@lists.ibiblio.org
Errors-To: organicviticulture-admin@lists.ibiblio.org
X-BeenThere: organicviticulture@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: organicviticulture@lists.ibiblio.org
List-Help: <mailto:organicviticulture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=help>
List-Post: <mailto:organicviticulture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/organicviticulture>,
	<mailto:organicviticulture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
List-Id: Organic Grape Culture <organicviticulture.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/organicviticulture>,
	<mailto:organicviticulture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/organicviticulture/>
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 09:34:28 -0800
X-Declude-Sender: organicviticulture-admin@lists.ibiblio.org [152.2.210.119]
X-Note: Total weight is 8. IFILTER
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
X-UIDL: 322734744
Status: U

> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--MS_Mac_OE_3124172069_288526_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit



----------
From: ARS News Service <NewsService@ars.usda.gov>
Reply-To: ARS News Service <NewsService@ars.usda.gov>
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 08:09:32 -0500
To: ARS News subscriber <lonrom@hevanet.com>
Subject: Sexual Forms of 2 Helpful Fungi Are Found

STORY LEAD:
Researchers Find Reproductive States of Two Beneficial Fungi

___________________________________________

ARS News Service
Agricultural Research Service, USDA
Amy Spillman, (301) 504-1624, aspillman@ars.usda.gov
December 31, 2002
___________________________________________

In the world of fungi, asexuality--that is, reproduction without sex--is not
uncommon.  Unfortunately, species that clone themselves cannot crossbreed
and improve desirable qualities.  Changes come about only through random
genetic mutations.

Now, scientists with the Agricultural Research Service and Pennsylvania
State University have found a natural solution to this problem for at least
two important fungal species.  The scientists have discovered the sexual
states, or teleomorphs, of Trichoderma harzianum and T. atroviride.

Fungi in the genus Hypocrea, often as their asexual Trichoderma states, are
useful in the biological control of costly plant diseases.  T. harzianum can
be used to control botrytis gray mold, a pathogen that causes disease in
strawberries, and it has the potential to enhance plant growth.  T.
harzianum has also been credited with degrading pesticides in soil and
preventing mycotoxin synthesis.  T. atroviride has been shown to control
snow mold fungi on winter cereals and turf grasses, and certain root rot
diseases that attack ornamentals.

Priscila Chaverri, a Penn State graduate student working with mycologist
Gary Samuels at ARS' Systematic Botany and Mycology Laboratory (SBML) in
Beltsville, Md., has identified the sexual state of T. harzianum as Hypocrea
lixii.  She confirmed it with DNA sequence analysis. Although H. lixii was
first described in the 19th century, no one had made the connection between
it and T. harzianum until now.  The journal Mycological Progress published a
paper about the discovery in August.

Meanwhile, Sarah Dodd, a Penn State post-doctoral student who is also
working with Samuels at SBML, has discovered the sexual state of T.
atroviride.  She and Samuels named the species--which is new to
science--Hypocrea atroviridis and confirmed the link through molecular
analysis.  A paper about this discovery has been accepted for publication in
the journal Mycologia.

Discovering the sexual states of two Trichoderma species suggests that more
genetic variations of these fungi exist in nature than was previously
assumed.  Plant pathologists working to develop nonchemical means to control
plant diseases may be able to use this information to find better biocontrol
agents. 

ARS is the U.S. Department of Agriculture's chief scientific research
agency.
___________________________________________

* This is one of the news reports that ARS Information distributes to
subscribers on weekdays.
* Start, stop or change an e-mail subscription at
www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/subscribe.htm
* The latest news is always at www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/thelatest.htm
* NewsService@ars.usda.gov | www.ars.usda.gov/is
* Phone (301) 504-1638 | fax (301) 504-1648





--MS_Mac_OE_3124172069_288526_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>FW: Sexual Forms of 2 Helpful Fungi Are Found</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<BR>
<BR>
----------<BR>
<B>From: </B>ARS News Service &lt;NewsService@ars.usda.gov&gt;<BR>
<B>Reply-To: </B>ARS News Service &lt;NewsService@ars.usda.gov&gt;<BR>
<B>Date: </B>Tue, 31 Dec 2002 08:09:32 -0500<BR>
<B>To: </B>ARS News subscriber &lt;lonrom@hevanet.com&gt;<BR>
<B>Subject: </B>Sexual Forms of 2 Helpful Fungi Are Found<BR>
<BR>
<TT>STORY LEAD:<BR>
Researchers Find Reproductive States of Two Beneficial Fungi <BR>
<BR>
___________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
ARS News Service<BR>
Agricultural Research Service, USDA<BR>
Amy Spillman, (301) 504-1624, aspillman@ars.usda.gov<BR>
December 31, 2002<BR>
___________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
In the world of fungi, asexuality--that is, reproduction without sex--is no=
t uncommon. &nbsp;Unfortunately, species that clone themselves cannot crossb=
reed and improve desirable qualities. &nbsp;Changes come about only through =
random genetic mutations.<BR>
<BR>
Now, scientists with the Agricultural Research Service and Pennsylvania Sta=
te University have found a natural solution to this problem for at least two=
 important fungal species. &nbsp;The scientists have discovered the sexual s=
tates, or teleomorphs, of Trichoderma harzianum and T. atroviride.<BR>
<BR>
Fungi in the genus Hypocrea, often as their asexual Trichoderma states, are=
 useful in the biological control of costly plant diseases. &nbsp;T. harzian=
um can be used to control botrytis gray mold, a pathogen that causes disease=
 in strawberries, and it has the potential to enhance plant growth. &nbsp;T.=
 harzianum has also been credited with degrading pesticides in soil and prev=
enting mycotoxin synthesis. &nbsp;T. atroviride has been shown to control sn=
ow mold fungi on winter cereals and turf grasses, and certain root rot disea=
ses that attack ornamentals. <BR>
<BR>
Priscila Chaverri, a Penn State graduate student working with mycologist Ga=
ry Samuels at ARS' Systematic Botany and Mycology Laboratory (SBML) in Belts=
ville, Md., has identified the sexual state of T. harzianum as Hypocrea lixi=
i. &nbsp;She confirmed it with DNA sequence analysis. Although H. lixii was =
first described in the 19th century, no one had made the connection between =
it and T. harzianum until now. &nbsp;The journal Mycological Progress publis=
hed a paper about the discovery in August.<BR>
<BR>
Meanwhile, Sarah Dodd, a Penn State post-doctoral student who is also worki=
ng with Samuels at SBML, has discovered the sexual state of T. atroviride. &=
nbsp;She and Samuels named the species--which is new to science--Hypocrea at=
roviridis and confirmed the link through molecular analysis. &nbsp;A paper a=
bout this discovery has been accepted for publication in the journal Mycolog=
ia.<BR>
<BR>
Discovering the sexual states of two Trichoderma species suggests that more=
 genetic variations of these fungi exist in nature than was previously assum=
ed. &nbsp;Plant pathologists working to develop nonchemical means to control=
 plant diseases may be able to use this information to find better biocontro=
l agents. <BR>
<BR>
ARS is the U.S. Department of Agriculture's chief scientific research agenc=
y.<BR>
___________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
* This is one of the news reports that ARS Information distributes to subsc=
ribers on weekdays. <BR>
* Start, stop or change an e-mail subscription at www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/su=
bscribe.htm<BR>
* The latest news is always at www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/thelatest.htm<BR>
* NewsService@ars.usda.gov | www.ars.usda.gov/is<BR>
* Phone (301) 504-1638 | fax (301) 504-1648<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</TT>
</BODY>
</HTML>


--MS_Mac_OE_3124172069_288526_MIME_Part--

_______________________________________________
organicviticulture mailing list
organicviticulture@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/organicviticulture

.

From - Sun Jan 05 18:55:42 2003
X-UIDL: 322734996
X-Mozilla-Status: 0010
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A9FE17FD00D6; Sun, 05 Jan 2003 15:47:58 -0500
Received: from happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu [152.2.210.119] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A9ACC5610030; Sun, 05 Jan 2003 15:46:36 -0500
Received: from happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id 22A1A20155; Sun,  5 Jan 2003 15:46:02 -0500 (EST)
Delivered-To: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from mail3.mx.voyager.net (mail3.mx.voyager.net [216.93.66.202])
	by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E087D20113
	for <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>; Sun,  5 Jan 2003 15:45:54 -0500 (EST)
Received: from voyager.net (d167.as0.lnng.mi.voyager.net [209.153.135.140])
	by mail3.mx.voyager.net (8.11.6/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h05KkNC49938
	for <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 15:46:23 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <3E18999D.8020008@voyager.net>
From: Joe and Ellen Hecksel <jhecksel@voyager.net>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011128 Netscape6/6.2.1
X-Accept-Language: en-us
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] Clay,gypsum,cobalt
References: <F22smPzNRgmYUjz2Yqe00005714@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: nafex-admin@lists.ibiblio.org
Errors-To: nafex-admin@lists.ibiblio.org
X-BeenThere: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
List-Help: <mailto:nafex-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=help>
List-Post: <mailto:nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex>,
	<mailto:nafex-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
List-Id: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex>,
	<mailto:nafex-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex/>
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 15:46:21 -0500
X-Declude-Sender: nafex-admin@lists.ibiblio.org [152.2.210.119]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
X-UIDL: 322734996
Status: U

Hi Del:
> I have been considering amending my clay hill apple orchard with gypsum 
> but wonder how to apply it. Considering clay's nature I would think that 
> a surface application, say a ton per acre, would never get down into the 
> clay to do its work. I would think it would have to be worked down deep 
> with heavy equipment prior to planting. Can surface application work?


I think surface application can work....just not very quickly  Wet clay, 
being a large percentage water by volume, is actively worked by the 
freeze-thaw cycle.    It is also "worked" by dry-wet cycling.  Note the 
cracks that show up in clay when it dries.  These mechanisms are pretty 
much free of charge or effort on your part.

A third mechanism is that some plants will punch through the clay with 
fleshy roots.  Those roots provide active transport channels as they 
decay and bug life chews their way down.  These biological mechanisms do 
require some effort and intelligence on your part. Examples:  Planting 
appropriate cover crops.  Adding organic matter to feed the soil life.

You need to know that I am a lazy person.  I am a disciple of 
Scattergood Baines.  I would take $99 out of the ATM rather than $100 if 
I could, simply so I would not have to move my finger so much.  So I am 
very much inclined to error on the side of easy-does-it.  Bear that in 
mind as you read.

Some of what you do depends on how things are growing for you.  I would 
respond differently if my trees were dying as opposed to living and 
growing but not thriving.  Dying trees demand more drastic, invasive 
action.  Failure-to-thrive means you can be more incremental in your 
approach and maybe make minor adjustments in your orchard management or 
use what you have learned about rootstock choices when making replacements.

Like Mr. London, I don't know if aggressively incorporating gypsum is 
the best choice.  Clay tends to be rich in aluminum (one of the LMs). 
Aluminum becomes soluble at lower pH, that is, more acid soils.  Gypsum 
is CaSO4 (calcium sulphate) and tends to lower pH.  As a point of 
reference, alum is AlKSO4, or aluminum-potassium-sulphate and it reacts 
with protein enough so that it is used to tan hides into leather. 
Bacterial life has protein cell walls.


>     Secondly, during the last Nafex conference a knowledgeable grower  
> strongly recommended cobalt as the solution to breaking up clay. 


Cobalt is a *trace* nutrient essential for the bacterial synthesis of 
one of the B vitamins.  I suppose that adding cobalt in extremely minute 
quantities would be a good thing if you had absolutely no cobalt in your 
soil.  However, it strains the imagination to think that Minnesota 
weather is aggressive enough to leach all cobalt from the soil the 
glaciers gnawed off the Precambrian shield a mere 10,000 years ago.

Besides, cobalt is very expensive.  Nobody has enough money to use it as 
a commodity agricultural chemical.  Del, I know you are a mechanically 
inclined kind of guy.  You could probably get enough cobalt by brazing 
an M-42 HSS drill bit to one tine of your rototiller (attempt at humor).

>I have 
> no idea what level of application, and would not want to over appply. 
> Does it work with ions as well, or some other mechanism?
> Del
 
> 


-- 
-Joe Hecksel
My personal web site: http://my.voyager.net/~jhecksel
"We are only here for a short time.  So let's make it a good time."
-Cary Dye  1958-2002


_______________________________________________
nafex mailing list
nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
Most questions can be answered here:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex
File attachments are accepted by this list; please do not send binary files, plain text ONLY!
Message archives are here:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex
To view your user options go to: 
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/options/nafex/XXXX@XXXX (where XXXX@XXXX is 
YOUR email address)
NAFEX web site:   http://www.nafex.org/

.

From - Sun Jan 19 12:49:52 2003
X-UIDL: 322735669
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 10000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A14F426B00E6; Sun, 19 Jan 2003 12:33:03 -0500
Received: from intrex.net [209.42.230.61] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A14719340202; Sun, 19 Jan 2003 12:32:55 -0500
Message-ID: <3E2B0DC7.6030608@intrex.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 12:42:47 -0800
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
Organization: http://market-farming.com  --  Venaura Farm
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To:  lfl@intrex.net
Subject: Thai Urban Agriculture
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
 boundary="------------010707020005070102070003"
X-Declude-Sender: lfl@intrex.net [209.42.230.61]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. Whitelisted
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
X-UIDL: 322735669
Status: U

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------010707020005070102070003
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


<http://www.cityfarmer.org/thai.html>

-- 
L.F.London
lfl@intrex.net
http://market-farming.com
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/pcwiki/index.php/london

--------------010707020005070102070003
Content-Type: text/html;
 name="www.cityfarmer.org/thai.html"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline;
 filename="www.cityfarmer.org/thai.html"
Content-Base: "http://www.cityfarmer.org/thai.html"
Content-Location: "http://www.cityfarmer.org/thai.html"

<HTML>
<HEAD>

<TITLE>Thai Urban Agriculture </TITLE>


</HEAD>
<BODY BACKGROUND="blue_background.GIF">

<BLOCKQUOTE>

<DIV ALIGN=CENTER><A NAME="thai"><IMG SRC="CityFarmerBanner.GIF"
ALT="CityFarmerbanner" ALIGN=middle WIDTH="400" HEIGHT="30"></A> <BR>


<H5><FONT COLOR="Navy">Published by City Farmer, Canada's Office of
Urban Agriculture</FONT></H5></DIV>

<P><BR>


<DIV ALIGN=LEFT><H1><FONT COLOR="RED">Urban Agriculture in Thailand</FONT></H1></DIV><P>

</P><BR CLEAR=ALL>

<P>
By Carmenella Aspinall<BR CLEAR=ALL>
<a href="mailto:farmin_carmen@hotmail.com">farmin_carmen@hotmail.com</a>
</P>

    
<P>
     I was raised on a small hobby farm and attended University of British Columbia where I completed my Bachelor's in Agriculture with a major in Agro-Ecology and specialization in Sustainable Agriculture. I now work at a mid-sized NGO in the north of Thailand called the <A HREF="http://www.aced-asia.org/">Association for Community and Ecology Development</A>. We do everything that is politically correct to do in the north of Thailand (ie. running a high school for girls being rehabilitated from the sex trade, market community products for impoverished villages, seek citizenship for hilltribe people, facilitate the formation of civil society, rally for community rights to forestry and natural resource management, etc). 
</P>

<P>
My role as a volunteer here is to help with the agriculture programmes (through both extension and running a model "sustainable" system for lowland and upland farmers at our training centre. I find that many Thais are rapidly loosing their connection to the earth as their world becomes quickly industrialized. Farmers are becoming  poorer and there is little policy instrumentation to ensure their survival. Thus, the need for urban agriculture is quickly growing. 
</P>

<P>
I have a small house with no land. However, I have turned my driveway into a garden with herb, flower, and vegetable production. I compost elephant poo, rice straw from my neighbours (who would have just burned it), kitchen scraps, and rotten fruits and veggies from the market (which are usually thrown out). I also collect my rain water for my gardens, have ten egg-layers, make my own IM (Indigenous Microorganisms  - see below) and bioextract, and am starting to do human waste composting (oh joy to Joe Jenkins). 
</P>

<P>
I find that practicing urban agrology has helped me integrate with Thai culture more easily as my neighbours have an excuse to come visit, talk, bring me their kitchen scraps, paint the sides of my planters, get their hands dirty, have their children feed the chickens, etc. So, that in a nutshell, is my interest in urban agriculture.
</P>
    
    
  <H3 ALIGN=LEFT>My Garden</H3>
    
    
<P>
    I moved into a house in Chiang Rai (pop. 30,000) that had no green space at all. No yard. No grass (ugh, grass). However, it did have a driveway that could probably accomodate two cars. Being that I had no car (just a motorbike and bicycle), I built long troughs out of bricks/wood for gardens. Soil is quite expensive and of poor quality here, so I made my own from sawdust from my neighbour who was gutting his house at the time I was building my gardens. 
</P>

<P>
I started small with three boxes (each about 1 meterx3meters) and started planting Thai crops like morning glory, pumpkin, cucumber, long beans, cabbage, lettuce, various medicinal plants, herbs, lemon grass, etc. I have basically built a shelter/lattice out of bamboo for the climbing plants to shade the other plants and herbs. Underneath the shelter, I have a picnic table and my neighbours regularly come and hang out there even when I am not home. 
</P>

<P>
Also under the shelter is my compost box (soon to be boxes plural). I compost whatever I can get my hands on -- buffalo and elephant dung, rotten veggies from the market, kitchen scraps, waste from my chicken coop, sawdust, leaves, etc. I used to inoculate the heap with IM (Indigenous Microorganisms) that I made myself since I started out on pavement, but now I don't bother. 
</P>

<P>
Luckily, I don't have much of a pest problem because none of my neighbours have any green space of their own, but I do make my own pest control out of lemongrass. I also make bio-extract out of rotten fruits and veggies that I can get from the market for free. I use rice straw as a mulch and have a few sesbania plants that I will be using as a green manure. 
</P>

<P>
I collect rainwater in a big sealed barrel (gotta be careful of standing water here because of malarial mosquitos) although right now, in the dry season, I am using city water. I am currently building a little composting toilet of my own (although in Thailand we use squatter toilets, so don't waste all that much water compared to the west, however, the more nutrients in my compost the better). Also, I will be building a small mushroom house soon.
</P>

<P>
I live alone, so that means I have plenty of extras for my neighbours. They love coming over, sitting in my garden, collecting eggs and vegetables for dinner, and taking part in whatever I happen to be doing on that particular day (ex. making yoghurt or peanut butter, cooking foreign foods, making crafts, etc.) Many of them are quite excited by the fact that I produce food in the city (and do it single-handedly no less) and think that I am quite a strange foreigner.
</P>

<P>
My biggest constraint is that I have built my gardens on top of concrete, so drainage is poor. If I were to do it again, I would put a good layer of twigs or rocks or granite jelly under the soil first. The other constraint is that, well, this is selfish of me, but sometimes, I can't get my neighbours to go away -- they seem to love my gardens too much.
</P>


<HR ALIGN=CENTER NOSHADE WIDTH="60%" SIZE="2"><BR CLEAR=ALL>

<H3 ALIGN=LEFT>IM - Indigenous Microorganisms</H3>
<P>
IM is indigenous microorganisms -- a new spinoff on effective organisms. I'm doing my best to battle effective microorganisms (EM) here in Thailand. When I tell farmers that I am an alternative agriculture advisor the first thing they tell me is, "Oh, I use EM." When I ask them why, they really aren't too sure, but they know they should because a bunch of local NGOs have told them that that's a good thing to do if you want to do organic production. 
<P>

</P>
I battle with this issue for one reason, mainly -- EM is too expensive for farmers who have close to nothing. They don't know how to use it properly and, in most cases, are just pouring money onto their compost piles. For most of them, the ambient temperature is so high and their compost piles are well enough established that they don't need to add EM (the rates of decomposition are high already); however, they insist upon doing it cuz someone else has told them they should. 
<P>

</P>
So, I am making IM with them instead. This way, they collect their own indigenous microorganisms from a culture on plain rice. This makes more sense to me as the microorganisms are INDIGENOUS and will have the best effect on INDIGENOUS plant species and manures. I really can't fathom why anyone would want to buy microorganisms from Japan to use in Thailand or Canada or wherever else when it takes ten minutes effort over a week of time to make it yourself.<P>

</P>

<BR CLEAR=ALL>


<P> <FONT SIZE="4"><B><FONT COLOR="#AA1177">New Feature! </FONT>


<A HREF="/htdig/search.html"><FONT SIZE=4> Search Our
Site</FONT></A></B><IMG SRC="new01.gif" ALT="[new]" ALIGN=top></FONT>

</P><BR>

<DIV ALIGN=CENTER><IMG SRC="bl_tri45.gif" ALT="pointer"><A
HREF="urbagnotes1.html#notes"><FONT SIZE=5><TT> Return to Contents' Page
</TT></FONT></A><IMG SRC="bl_tri45.gif" ALT="pointer"></DIV>



</BLOCKQUOTE>


<P><BR>



<DIV ALIGN=CENTER><H5>Revised February 6, 2002</H5><BR></DIV>

<DIV ALIGN=CENTER><FONT SIZE=4><TT><FONT COLOR="RED">Published by City
Farmer<BR> Canada's Office of Urban Agriculture </FONT><BR>  <a
href="mailto:cityfarm@interchange.ubc.ca ">cityfarm@interchange.ubc.ca</a>
</TT></FONT></DIV>

<P><BR>

</BODY>
</HTML>

--------------010707020005070102070003--



.

From - Mon Jan 20 12:16:25 2003
X-UIDL: 322735703
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AB7E6133010A; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 12:01:50 -0500
Received: from mpls-qmqp-01.inet.qwest.net [63.231.195.112] by smtp.intrex.net
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AB715CE7003A; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 12:01:37 -0500
Received: (qmail 71218 invoked by uid 0); 20 Jan 2003 17:01:28 -0000
Received: from mpls-pop-15.inet.qwest.net (63.231.195.15)
  by mpls-qmqp-01.inet.qwest.net with QMQP; 20 Jan 2003 17:01:28 -0000
Received: from eugn-dsl-gw1poole163.eugn.uswest.net (HELO soilfoodweb.com) (63.224.200.163)
  by mpls-pop-15.inet.qwest.net with SMTP; 20 Jan 2003 17:01:26 -0000
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 09:07:38 -0800
Message-ID: <3E2C2CDA.1040007@soilfoodweb.com>
From: "Soil Foodweb, Inc." <info@soilfoodweb.com>
Organization: Soil Foodweb Inc.
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: January SFI E-Zine
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="------------010207090607020500020904"
X-Declude-Sender: info@soilfoodweb.com [63.231.195.112]
X-Note: Total weight is 4. BADHEADERS
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
X-UIDL: 322735703
Status: U


--------------010207090607020500020904
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

  I'm sending this out for Elaine, who is on vacation just now.  As 
usual, if you want this as an in-text message, just e-mail back to have 
us put you on the in-text address list. 

If you want to un-subscribe, please just e-mail us back with 
"un-subscribe" in the subject line.


January SFI E-Zine

Table of Contents

1.  Compost Tea Grant 2003 (and how to get data from 2002)
2.  Tree farms won't halt climate change
3.  Fungal growth on composts with various fungal foods.
4.  Frost-protection and CT
5.  Compost Covers
6.  Cleaning EPM 100 gal machine and EPM customer service
7.  Feast of Fields Inc Results for 2002
8.  NEW TEA BREWER!
9. Glyphosate resistance transgene from rr ready crops likely allergen
10. Mobilization of heavy metals by microbes increases plant availability

------------------------------

1.  THE COMPOST TEA GRANT

We would like to work with three to five growers of each size 
commercially available compost tea machines on the market to test the 
efficacy of the different machines.   

If you want to participate, please contact Kirk, or Elaine, at Soil 
Foodweb Inc.  info@soilfoodweb.com

The plan this year is:
1.    You do the soil sample this spring,
2.    SFI will run three tea samples during the summer from you,
3.    SFI will run the soil sample next spring without charge. 
You pay for the initial soil sample, and the shipping costs. 
If you are the east coast, send the sample to SFI New York.
If you are on the west coast, send to the SFI lab in Corvallis, OR
If you are in Australia, send to the Lismore lab in NSW
If you are in New Zealand, send to the SFI New Zealand lab
If you are in Europe, send to the SFI lab in Holland. 

More specific instructions:
1.  When soil temperature reaches 50 to 55 F, take five 3 inch deep, 1 
inch diameter soil cores.

2.  Mix the five cores together.

3.  Send half a sandwich size zip-lock baggie of the mixed soil samples 
into the closest SFI lab. 

4.  On the SFI submission form (YOU MUST GET SPECIAL SUBMISSION FORMS IN 
ORDER TO BE INCLUDED IN THIS GRANT), order total and active bacteria, 
total and active fungi, protozoa and nematodes.   If you have roots, it 
would be good to add VAM (but this is up to you). 

5.  If the sample is from an annual crop field, or a permanent pasture, 
take the samples randomly from within the field.  If there are rows in 
the field, take the samples from where the crops will be planted, not 
from the mechanically compacted areas in the field.  If the samples are 
from perennial plant areas, take sample half-way between the stems and 
the dripline of the plant, along the row of plants (not out into the 
driving lanes).

Making the teas
Information about food resources to use should be obtained from the 
manufacturer, since that information is specific to each machine.  In 
general, we want to maximize fungi in the tea, so 1 ounce molasses in 5 
gal when temperatures are lower than 75 degrees F (no molasses when 
temperatures are above 75 F), ½ cup kelp per 5 gal, 1 ounce humic acid 
or fish hydrolysate would be the best.  For 50 gal machines, 1 pint 
molasses, 2 cups kelp, 1 cup humic acid or other fungal food.  We will 
ask you to increase or decrease certain food components after the first 
tea brew you send in, and please let us know exactly what your recipe 
was with each tea brew.  IF this is proprietary information, we will not 
share the specific ingredients, but would like to indicate relative 
bacterial versus fungal food resources.

Each client needs to find a good source of compost (preferably tested to 
be E. coli free!).  A mix of thermal and worm compost would be best. 

Participants will make teas, and at 12 or 24 hours, based on 
manufacturer's recommendations, will send the sample immediately into 
the closest SFI. 

The first tea you apply should be a soil drench, where you apply 5 to 15 
gal of tea per acre to the soil around the roots of your plants, or 
where the roots will be, before plant growth begins in the spring. 

The second and third tea samples should be teas made for foliar 
applications. 

Tea should be placed in 4 to 8 ounce plastic water bottles, but only 1/3 
to ½ full.  The head space is needed to keep the sample aerated on it's 
way to the lab.  The bottle needs to be able to move and roll during 
transportation to keep the tea aerated. 

Please note the smell of the tea when you send it.  Please place a 
similar amount of tea in the same size bottle and seal it closed.  Smell 
the tea at 24 hours and e-mail us the information.

Obtain sample submission forms from SFI for the tea grant.  If you don't 
have these forms, the tea will not be counted as part of the tea grant!  
You will be charged for the tea if you forget the form!  These forms 
will automatically result in total and active bacteria, total and active 
fungi, protozoa and E. coli tests.

The second soil sample should be taken next spring when the soil reaches 
the same temperatures as this year when the soil sample was taken. 

Please note that if efforts are made to deal with the extraction and 
aeration problems with the Growing Solutions and SoilSoup machines, then 
these bacterial tea machines could be included. 

Growers should contact SoilSoup and Growing Solutions to ask what 
modifications the manufacturers would recommend to improve 
extraction/survival of fungi and protozoa in these machines in order to 
make compost tea, instead of bacterial tea.

If people have DO probes to check and make sure their teas remain 
aerobic, please send that data in with the teas.  Please, we would 
cherish that data.  But it is really up to the tea machine makers to do 
that testing, and give clients the information about how much molasses, 
kelp and fungal food to add to each size machine.

If we get the little hand-held microscopes on the market by this spring, 
we'll probably encourage the tea grant people to buy these little guys 
(wholesale price or we'll send free ones for beta testing to 
participants).  That way we'll have a database of information connecting 
on-site leaf readings, tea assessment at the lab, and what happens 
through the summer with respect to improving the plant's health, and 
soil health. 

If you can do BRIX readings before and after applying tea, that would 
really put the icing on the cake.

We would like to be updated on how the plants are responding to the 
teas.  Any problems, and we'd want to work with you on how to deal with 
the situation. 
-------
Please remember that the tea grant will not be fully finished until 
spring of 2004.  Just as this year, we are waiting for the spring soil 
samples to be sent in from participants and won't have the tea grant 
data finished until after those samples arrive. 
-------
For those who would like to see the TEA data from the grant from last 
spring, we have those data summarized.  I will send the document to you 
by e-mail if you were a participant in the grant and request those 
results.   Otherwise, we'll be showing these data at various meetings 
around the country this spring, and hopefully you can catch the results 
at a meeting.  Otherwise, I'll write the data up for the e-zine when the 
data are all in.....

--------------------------------
2. Tree farms won't halt climate change, New Scientist, 28 October 2002

The Kyoto Protocol allows countries to claim credits for reducing their 
CO2 emissions by planting forests to store the CO2 in plant tissue.  New 
results from the CarboEurope research program suggest that the soils in 
these new forests will release more carbon dioxide than is fixed by the 
trees "for at least the first 10 years".  This pulse of CO2 is produced 
soil microorganisms when soils are disturbed by clearing and planting 
activity.  Only after 10 years or so "will the carbon uptake by the 
trees begin to offset the losses from soils."

-----------------------------------------
3. Fungal growth on composts with various fungal foods.

I conducted a short test of the interactions of various commercial 
composts with the fungal foods we use in making compost teas.  Our 
interest was in creating a fungal dominated tea for treatment of 
Phytopthora root rot on avocado trees.  In the panel of photos you can 
see how various food and compost combinations generate different fungal 
growths and that some composts are poor candidates for making fungal 
extractions.  Also I think you can see that some foods are better at 
growing fungi in these composts.  One combination, fish hydrolase on 
Greenways Mulch (a greenwaste product made by Greenways Environmental, 
Inc) produced explosive growth.  My best picks are Grangetto's (a garden 
center in S. California) compost and Greenway's mulch with fish 
hydrolase and perhaps Algamin kelp.

You can see there is a variety of fungi produced in these combinations 
and I think that is important when thinking about diversity of organisms 
in our teas.  From Elaine Ingham's comments on the need for high 
diversity of organisms it would seem prudent to select various compost 
components and pre-treat them with more than one fungal food before 
introduction into the tea extractor.  Of course these same mulches with 
grow fungi without any addition of foods if they are kelp in a moist 
dark place but the addition of various foods presents an opportunity to 
generate higher numbers of fungi.  The beauty and variety of fungi was 
extraordinary.  If anyone can help with identification of these fungi 
please contact me.

David Loring, Project Leader
Southeast Asia Project
Dietrick Institute for Applied Insect Ecology

David just added more fungal pictures - some Trichoderma, some probable 
Penicillium, and some general fuzzy white fungi (probably not 
pathogens).  When you have questions about WHAT fungi are they, send a 
sample into me and I can ID them to genus for you if they are 
sporulating.   Otherwise, we'll do our best to ID them using more 
sophisticated techniques, such as enzyme and molecular methods that we 
are developing for the Beneficial Organism Assay.   The cost is $50 per 
sample for fungal ID. 
-----------------------------------------
4.  BTW all of the neighbors lawns frosted and lost color except for 
those with regular tea treatments. CT seems to truly affect the cold 
tolerance!!!

Tom Jaszewski
www.livesoil.com                702-595-7012

--------------------------------------------
5. Compost Covers!   

www.cvcompost.com/covers 

In dry climates, you need to cover compost to prevent evaporation. 
In wet climates, you need t o prevent too much rain making the piles 
become anaerobic.

1. Being made of 100% UV-light-protected fibers, these covers are incredibly
durable.  They are guaranteed for 4 years but field use shows they will last
15 to 20 years or more.

2. Being relatively light-weight, they are also quite easy to handle.  And
being permeable to air (i.e.. not prone to "sail" in the wind like 
impermeable tarps), are also relatively easy to secure to piles with 
anchors placed along the edges at 10 to 30 ft intervals.

3. Standard sizes (12 ft, 18 ft,  24 ft, and 36 ft wide  x 164 ft long) cost
as little as $1.33/sq yd plus shipping/handling.

Please contact:

Steven Wisbaum
Champlain Valley Compost Co.
Ph/FAX: 802-425-5556/5557
e-mail: steven@cvcompost.com
-----------------------------------

6.    Cleaning the 100 gal EPM machine and EPM customer service

Hi Dorothy,

We purchased a 100 gallon EPM,Inc tea brewer last year and used it this
growing season. This machine is industrial strength and made to be used
seven days a week if you want. It is easily cleaned if you rinse it down as
you empty it. We had very few problems with the machine and the company was
very helpful if we had any questions. Learning to use compost tea is very
interesting and rewarding as you see results developing.

Happy Holidays,
Ross
-------------------------------------------------

7. Feast of Fields Inc Results for 2002

Each year we introduce/try new things. For the 2002 growing season the
major changes we made were :

2001 fall - deep chisel plough alternate rows
2002 spring - install field broadcaster with BD preps
2002 spring - no dormant sprays no prebloom sulphur
2002 spring - disc in cover crop in areas hit hard by 2001 draught
2002 spring - begin compost tea program
2002 season - drastically reduced sulphur usage
2002 season - no copper or other products at all

Empirical data from the 2002 season shows :
* 40-45% increase in yield
*2002 drought was more severe that 2001 yet NO defoliation.
   During the 2001drought we had severe leaf yellowing,
   defoliation in 4 rows of Baco Noir and poor fruit
   ripening in 14 other rows
* Quality as measured by refractometer - the same or better

Anedoctal data :
* less black rot - we have one very suspectible variety
* no bunch rot
* no Asian lady bugs - big problem in 2001
* mildew was isolated to small patch with excess vegatation which meant
      poor spray penetration
* greener foliage
* pond end of vineyard is usually high mildew pressure and in 2002
   there was no observable difference

For the 2003 season we will control the variables. Other cultural practices
will remain basically the same but our compost tea program will develop in
a more vineyard specific direction. 

And to that end I would like to hear from all other grape growers on the
list !!!! how was your crop last year ?

 > Laura Sabourin
 > Feast of Fields Inc
 >&  http://www.ragdolls.net/vineyard.htm
 > Ragenesque Ragdoll Cattery http://www.ragdolls.net/ragenesq.htm
 > R R # 1
 > St Catharines, Ontario L2R 6P7

------------------------------------------
8.    NEW TEA BREWER! 

Our "Tea-riffic" brewer 17 gallon size is in beta testing and will be ready
to ship for the 2003 growing season ! We designed this unit to fit the
needs of market gardeners and CSA operations - ideally 2-3 acres of
intensive garden. It could work every day though and cover a much larger
operation. 

This little guy will soon be followed by 100 and 300 gallon models.
Please visit  www.ecovit.ca   to see a picture of our unit.

Our units are be priced to be affordable, in Canadian $$. And for Canadians
customers this means no import hassles, brokerage fees, exchange commission
or international freight rates.

Our brewers will make their first public appearance at the Guelph Organic
Conference to be held in Guelph Ontario Jan 24-26th.
http://www.guelphorganicconf.org/

Laura Sabourin
Feast of Fields Inc
Demeter Certified Vineyard & Farm  http://feast-of-fields.ca
EcoVit Aerobic Compost Tea http://compost-tea.ca
R R # 1
St Catharines, Ontario L2R 6P7
---------------
9.  The article below found that a glyphosate resistance transgene from 
rr ready crops was a likely allergen.

IgE is the family of proteins from the immune system that
activates the allergy response. Further clinical testing is
recommended and the finding certainly refutes the claim the rr ready
crops are substantially equivalent. Such findings should
have triggered a moratorium on growth and sale of the
rr crops but incompetent bureaucrats are waiting for a
body count.

Screening of transgenic proteins expressed in transgenic food crops for the
presence of short amino acid sequences identical to potential, IgE -
binding linear epitopes of allergens
Gijs A Kleter  and Ad ACM Peijnenburg
BMC Structural Biology 2002 2:8 (published 12 December 2002)

Abstract
Background:
Transgenic proteins expressed by genetically modified food crops are
evaluated for their potential allergenicity prior to marketing, among 
others by
identification of short identical amino acid sequences that occur both
in the transgenic protein and allergenic proteins. A strategy is 
proposed, in
which the positive outcomes of the sequence comparison with a minimal 
length
of six amino acids are further screened for the presence of potential 
linear IgE-
epitopes. This double track approach involves the use of literature data
on IgE- epitopes and an antigenicity prediction algorithm.

Results:
Thirty-three transgenic proteins have been screened for identities of at
least six contiguous amino acids shared with allergenic proteins. Twenty-two
transgenic proteins showed positive results of six- or seven- contiguous
amino acids length. Only a limited number of identical stretches shared by
transgenic proteins (papaya ringspot virus coat protein, acetolactate 
synthase
GH50, and glyphosate oxidoreductase) and allergenic proteins could be 
identified
as (part of) potential linear epitopes.

Conclusion:
Many transgenic proteins have identical stretches of six or seven amino
acids in common with allergenic proteins. Most identical stretches are 
likely
to be false positives. As shown in this study, identical stretches can 
be further
screened for relevance by comparison with linear IgE-binding epitopes
described in literature. In the absence of literature data on epitopes, 
antigenicity
prediction by computer aids to select potential antibody binding sites that
will need verification of IgE binding by sera binding tests. Finally, the
positive outcomes of this approach warrant further clinical testing for
potential allergenicity.

jcummins@UWO.CA
---------------------------
10.  Soils tainted with heavy metals harm microbes, but microbes also 
re-mobilize heavy metals, increasing plant availability
from New Scientist Print Edition
Soils tainted with heavy metals from industrial pollution and sewage 
sludge may poison organisms that live in the soil far more readily than 
thought. The finding raises fears that unexpectedly high levels of 
toxins are getting into the food chain.
Contaminated soils are given hazard ratings that are based on the key 
assumption that organisms can only take up heavy metals and other 
pollutants if they are dissolved or suspended in water percolating 
through the soil. A large proportion of pollutants are assumed to bind 
tightly to soil particles, making them inaccessible to organisms feeding 
on the soil.
But Renaud Scheifler and his team of soil biologists at the University 
of Franche-Comté in Besançon, France, have shown that this assumption is 
wrong.
They allowed snails to rummage around a container filled with 
cadmium-contaminated soil taken from near a disused lead and zinc 
smelter. After two weeks, they analysed tissue from the snails and found 
that around 16 per cent of the cadmium they had absorbed was from the 
supposedly inaccessible cadmium bound tightly to the soil. "Our work is, 
to our knowledge, the first evidence of this," says Scheifler.
The finding suggests other heavy metals could also be more 
"bioavailable" than assumed, and could be entering the food chain.
"While a lot of research has been done on availability to plants, this 
paper addresses the much neglected soil fauna," says UK-based researcher 
Ian Pulford, who studies the fate of heavy metals in soil at the 
University of Glasgow. "It means that more cadmium than predicted is 
getting into the food chain," he says.
Cadmium can cause kidney damage, anaemia and a painful bone disorder 
known as "itai itai", Japanese for "ouch ouch". Hundreds of people 
living in Yokkaichi, 300 kilometres south-west of Tokyo, developed the 
disease in the 1950s after exposure to cadmium from industrial pollution.
It is too early to know whether the finding will lead to improved risk 
assessment of tainted soils, says Scheifler. But he says it is now 
necessary to see whether other heavy metals such as zinc, copper, lead 
and mercury are also getting into the food chain more easily than anyone 
imagined.
His team also wants to check if other organisms that feed on soil can 
absorb heavy metals as readily as the snails. "We have to work with 
other invertebrates to find whether the snail is a particular case," he 
says. Pulford says we need to understand much more about the role of 
soil animals in bringing heavy metals into the food chain.
Journal reference: Environmental Science and Technology (DOI: 10.1021/ 
es025677w)


--------------010207090607020500020904
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
  <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1">
  <title></title>
</head>
<body>
<font face="arial,helvetica"><font size="3" family="SERIF"
 face="Times New Roman" lang="0">  I'm sending this out for Elaine, who is
on vacation just now.&nbsp; As usual, if you want this as an in-text message,
just e-mail back to have us put you on the in-text address list.&nbsp; <br>
 <br>
 If you want to un-subscribe, please just e-mail us back with "un-subscribe"
in the subject line. <br>
<br>
<br>
</font></font>January SFI E-Zine <br>
<br>
Table of Contents<br>
<br>
1.&nbsp; Compost Tea Grant 2003 (and how to get data from 2002)<br>
2.&nbsp; Tree farms won&#8217;t halt climate change<br>
3.&nbsp; Fungal growth on composts with various fungal foods.<br>
4.&nbsp; Frost-protection and CT<br>
5.&nbsp; Compost Covers<br>
6.&nbsp; Cleaning EPM 100 gal machine and EPM customer service<br>
7.&nbsp; Feast of Fields Inc Results for 2002<br>
8.&nbsp; NEW TEA BREWER!<br>
9. Glyphosate resistance transgene from rr ready crops likely allergen<br>
10. Mobilization of heavy metals by microbes increases plant availability<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
1.&nbsp; THE COMPOST TEA GRANT<br>
<br>
We would like to work with three to five growers of each size commercially
available compost tea machines on the market to test the efficacy of the
different machines.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <br>
<br>
If you want to participate, please contact Kirk, or Elaine, at Soil Foodweb
Inc.&nbsp; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:info@soilfoodweb.com">info@soilfoodweb.com</a><br>
<br>
The plan this year is:<br>
1.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; You do the soil sample this spring, <br>
2.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; SFI will run three tea samples during the summer from you, <br>
3.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; SFI will run the soil sample next spring without charge.&nbsp; <br>
You pay for the initial soil sample, and the shipping costs.&nbsp; <br>
If you are the east coast, send the sample to SFI New York. <br>
If you are on the west coast, send to the SFI lab in Corvallis, OR<br>
If you are in Australia, send to the Lismore lab in NSW<br>
If you are in New Zealand, send to the SFI New Zealand lab<br>
If you are in Europe, send to the SFI lab in Holland.&nbsp; <br>
<br>
More specific instructions:<br>
1.&nbsp; When soil temperature reaches 50 to 55 F, take five 3 inch deep, 1 inch
diameter soil cores.<br>
<br>
2.&nbsp; Mix the five cores together.<br>
<br>
3.&nbsp; Send half a sandwich size zip-lock baggie of the mixed soil samples into
the closest SFI lab.&nbsp; <br>
<br>
4.&nbsp; On the SFI submission form (YOU MUST GET SPECIAL SUBMISSION FORMS IN
ORDER TO BE INCLUDED IN THIS GRANT), order total and active bacteria, total
and active fungi, protozoa and nematodes.&nbsp;&nbsp; If you have roots, it would be
good to add VAM (but this is up to you).&nbsp; <br>
<br>
5.&nbsp; If the sample is from an annual crop field, or a permanent pasture, take
the samples randomly from within the field.&nbsp; If there are rows in the field,
take the samples from where the crops will be planted, not from the mechanically
compacted areas in the field.&nbsp; If the samples are from perennial plant areas,
take sample half-way between the stems and the dripline of the plant, along
the row of plants (not out into the driving lanes). <br>
<br>
Making the teas<br>
Information about food resources to use should be obtained from the manufacturer,
since that information is specific to each machine.&nbsp; In general, we want
to maximize fungi in the tea, so 1 ounce molasses in 5 gal when temperatures
are lower than 75 degrees F (no molasses when temperatures are above 75 F),
&frac12; cup kelp per 5 gal, 1 ounce humic acid or fish hydrolysate would be the
best.&nbsp; For 50 gal machines, 1 pint molasses, 2 cups kelp, 1 cup humic acid
or other fungal food.&nbsp; We will ask you to increase or decrease certain food
components after the first tea brew you send in, and please let us know exactly
what your recipe was with each tea brew.&nbsp; IF this is proprietary information,
we will not share the specific ingredients, but would like to indicate relative
bacterial versus fungal food resources.<br>
<br>
Each client needs to find a good source of compost (preferably tested to
be E. coli free!).&nbsp; A mix of thermal and worm compost would be best.&nbsp; <br>
<br>
Participants will make teas, and at 12 or 24 hours, based on manufacturer&#8217;s
recommendations, will send the sample immediately into the closest SFI.&nbsp;
<br>
<br>
The first tea you apply should be a soil drench, where you apply 5 to 15
gal of tea per acre to the soil around the roots of your plants, or where
the roots will be, before plant growth begins in the spring.&nbsp; <br>
<br>
The second and third tea samples should be teas made for foliar applications.&nbsp;
<br>
<br>
Tea should be placed in 4 to 8 ounce plastic water bottles, but only 1/3
to &frac12; full.&nbsp; The head space is needed to keep the sample aerated on it&#8217;s way
to the lab.&nbsp; The bottle needs to be able to move and roll during transportation
to keep the tea aerated.&nbsp; <br>
<br>
Please note the smell of the tea when you send it.&nbsp; Please place a similar
amount of tea in the same size bottle and seal it closed.&nbsp; Smell the tea
at 24 hours and e-mail us the information.<br>
<br>
Obtain sample submission forms from SFI for the tea grant.&nbsp; If you don&#8217;t
have these forms, the tea will not be counted as part of the tea grant!&nbsp;
You will be charged for the tea if you forget the form!&nbsp; These forms will
automatically result in total and active bacteria, total and active fungi,
protozoa and E. coli tests.<br>
<br>
The second soil sample should be taken next spring when the soil reaches
the same temperatures as this year when the soil sample was taken.&nbsp; <br>
<br>
Please note that if efforts are made to deal with the extraction and aeration
problems with the Growing Solutions and SoilSoup machines, then these bacterial
tea machines could be included.&nbsp; <br>
<br>
Growers should contact SoilSoup and Growing Solutions to ask what modifications
the manufacturers would recommend to improve extraction/survival of fungi
and protozoa in these machines in order to make compost tea, instead of bacterial
tea.<br>
<br>
If people have DO probes to check and make sure their teas remain aerobic,
please send that data in with the teas.&nbsp; Please, we would cherish that data.&nbsp;
But it is really up to the tea machine makers to do that testing, and give
clients the information about how much molasses, kelp and fungal food to
add to each size machine. <br>
<br>
If we get the little hand-held microscopes on the market by this spring,
we'll probably encourage the tea grant people to buy these little guys (wholesale
price or we&#8217;ll send free ones for beta testing to participants).&nbsp; That way
we&#8217;ll have a database of information connecting on-site leaf readings, tea
assessment at the lab, and what happens through the summer with respect to
improving the plant's health, and soil health.&nbsp; <br>
<br>
If you can do BRIX readings before and after applying tea, that would really
put the icing on the cake.<br>
<br>
We would like to be updated on how the plants are responding to the teas.&nbsp;
Any problems, and we'd want to work with you on how to deal with the situation.&nbsp;
<br>
-------<br>
Please remember that the tea grant will not be fully finished until spring
of 2004.&nbsp; Just as this year, we are waiting for the spring soil samples to
be sent in from participants and won&#8217;t have the tea grant data finished until
after those samples arrive.&nbsp; <br>
-------<br>
For those who would like to see the TEA data from the grant from last spring,
we have those data summarized.&nbsp; I will send the document to you by e-mail
if you were a participant in the grant and request those results.&nbsp;&nbsp; Otherwise,
we&#8217;ll be showing these data at various meetings around the country this spring,
and hopefully you can catch the results at a meeting.&nbsp; Otherwise, I&#8217;ll write
the data up for the e-zine when the data are all in&#8230;..<br>
<br>
--------------------------------<br>
2. Tree farms won&#8217;t halt climate change, New Scientist, 28 October 2002<br>
<br>
The Kyoto Protocol allows countries to claim credits for reducing their CO2
emissions by planting forests to store the CO2 in plant tissue.&nbsp; New results
from the CarboEurope research program suggest that the soils in these new
forests will release more carbon dioxide than is fixed by the trees &#8220;for
at least the first 10 years&#8221;.&nbsp; This pulse of CO2 is produced soil microorganisms
when soils are disturbed by clearing and planting activity.&nbsp; Only after 10
years or so &#8220;will the carbon uptake by the trees begin to offset the losses
from soils.&#8221;<br>
<br>
-----------------------------------------<br>
3. Fungal growth on composts with various fungal foods.<br>
<br>
I conducted a short test of the interactions of various commercial composts
with the fungal foods we use in making compost teas.&nbsp; Our interest was in
creating a fungal dominated tea for treatment of Phytopthora root rot on
avocado trees.&nbsp; In the panel of photos you can see how various food and compost
combinations generate different fungal growths and that some composts are
poor candidates for making fungal extractions.&nbsp; Also I think you can see
that some foods are better at growing fungi in these composts.&nbsp; One combination,
fish hydrolase on Greenways Mulch (a greenwaste product made by Greenways
Environmental, Inc) produced explosive growth.&nbsp; My best picks are Grangetto&#8217;s
(a garden center in S. California) compost and Greenway&#8217;s mulch with fish
hydrolase and perhaps Algamin kelp.<br>
<br>
You can see there is a variety of fungi produced in these combinations and
I think that is important when thinking about diversity of organisms in our
teas.&nbsp; From Elaine Ingham&#8217;s comments on the need for high diversity of organisms
it would seem prudent to select various compost components and pre-treat
them with more than one fungal food before introduction into the tea extractor.&nbsp;
Of course these same mulches with grow fungi without any addition of foods
if they are kelp in a moist dark place but the addition of various foods
presents an opportunity to generate higher numbers of fungi.&nbsp; The beauty
and variety of fungi was extraordinary.&nbsp; If anyone can help with identification
of these fungi please contact me.<br>
<br>
David Loring, Project Leader<br>
Southeast Asia Project<br>
Dietrick Institute for Applied Insect Ecology<br>
<br>
David just added more fungal pictures &#8211; some Trichoderma, some probable Penicillium,
and some general fuzzy white fungi (probably not pathogens).&nbsp; When you have
questions about WHAT fungi are they, send a sample into me and I can ID them
to genus for you if they are sporulating.&nbsp;&nbsp; Otherwise, we&#8217;ll do our best
to ID them using more sophisticated techniques, such as enzyme and molecular
methods that we are developing for the Beneficial Organism Assay.&nbsp;&nbsp; The cost
is $50 per sample for fungal ID.&nbsp; <br>
-----------------------------------------<br>
4.&nbsp; BTW all of the neighbors lawns frosted and lost color except for those
with regular tea treatments. CT seems to truly affect the cold tolerance!!!<br>
<br>
Tom Jaszewski<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.livesoil.com&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;">www.livesoil.com&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</a> 702-595-7012<br>
<br>
--------------------------------------------<br>
5. Compost Covers!&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.cvcompost.com/covers&nbsp;">www.cvcompost.com/covers&nbsp;</a> <br>
<br>
In dry climates, you need to cover compost to prevent evaporation.&nbsp; <br>
In wet climates, you need t o prevent too much rain making the piles become
anaerobic.<br>
<br>
1. Being made of 100% UV-light-protected fibers, these covers are incredibly<br>
durable.&nbsp; They are guaranteed for 4 years but field use shows they will last<br>
15 to 20 years or more.<br>
<br>
2. Being relatively light-weight, they are also quite easy to handle.&nbsp; And<br>
being permeable to air (i.e.. not prone to "sail" in the wind like impermeable
tarps), are also relatively easy to secure to piles with anchors placed along
the edges at 10 to 30 ft intervals.<br>
<br>
3. Standard sizes (12 ft, 18 ft,&nbsp; 24 ft, and 36 ft wide&nbsp; x 164 ft long) cost<br>
as little as $1.33/sq yd plus shipping/handling.<br>
<br>
Please contact:<br>
<br>
Steven Wisbaum<br>
Champlain Valley Compost Co.<br>
Ph/FAX: 802-425-5556/5557<br>
e-mail: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:steven@cvcompost.com">steven@cvcompost.com</a><br>
-----------------------------------<br>
<br>
6.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Cleaning the 100 gal EPM machine and EPM customer service<br>
<br>
Hi Dorothy,<br>
<br>
We purchased a 100 gallon EPM,Inc tea brewer last year and used it this<br>
growing season. This machine is industrial strength and made to be used<br>
seven days a week if you want. It is easily cleaned if you rinse it down
as<br>
you empty it. We had very few problems with the machine and the company was<br>
very helpful if we had any questions. Learning to use compost tea is very<br>
interesting and rewarding as you see results developing.<br>
<br>
Happy Holidays,<br>
Ross<br>
-------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
7. Feast of Fields Inc Results for 2002<br>
<br>
Each year we introduce/try new things. For the 2002 growing season the<br>
major changes we made were : <br>
<br>
2001 fall - deep chisel plough alternate rows <br>
2002 spring - install field broadcaster with BD preps <br>
2002 spring - no dormant sprays no prebloom sulphur <br>
2002 spring - disc in cover crop in areas hit hard by 2001 draught<br>
2002 spring - begin compost tea program <br>
2002 season - drastically reduced sulphur usage<br>
2002 season - no copper or other products at all <br>
<br>
Empirical data from the 2002 season shows :<br>
* 40-45% increase in yield<br>
*2002 drought was more severe that 2001 yet NO defoliation. <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; During the 2001drought we had severe leaf yellowing,<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; defoliation in 4 rows of Baco Noir and poor fruit <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; ripening in 14 other rows<br>
* Quality as measured by refractometer - the same or better<br>
<br>
Anedoctal data :<br>
* less black rot - we have one very suspectible variety <br>
* no bunch rot <br>
* no Asian lady bugs - big problem in 2001<br>
* mildew was isolated to small patch with excess vegatation which meant<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; poor spray penetration <br>
* greener foliage<br>
* pond end of vineyard is usually high mildew pressure and in 2002 <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; there was no observable difference <br>
<br>
For the 2003 season we will control the variables. Other cultural practices<br>
will remain basically the same but our compost tea program will develop in<br>
a more vineyard specific direction.&nbsp; <br>
<br>
And to that end I would like to hear from all other grape growers on the<br>
list !!!! how was your crop last year ? <br>
<br>
&gt; Laura Sabourin<br>
&gt; Feast of Fields Inc<br>
&gt;&amp;&nbsp; <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ragdolls.net/vineyard.htm">http://www.ragdolls.net/vineyard.htm</a><br>
&gt; Ragenesque Ragdoll Cattery <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ragdolls.net/ragenesq.htm">http://www.ragdolls.net/ragenesq.htm</a><br>
&gt; R R # 1<br>
&gt; St Catharines, Ontario L2R 6P7<br>
<br>
------------------------------------------<br>
8.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; NEW TEA BREWER!&nbsp; <br>
<br>
Our "Tea-riffic" brewer 17 gallon size is in beta testing and will be ready<br>
to ship for the 2003 growing season ! We designed this unit to fit the<br>
needs of market gardeners and CSA operations - ideally 2-3 acres of<br>
intensive garden. It could work every day though and cover a much larger<br>
operation.&nbsp; <br>
<br>
This little guy will soon be followed by 100 and 300 gallon models.<br>
Please visit&nbsp; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.ecovit.ca&nbsp;&nbsp;">www.ecovit.ca&nbsp;&nbsp;</a> to see a picture of our unit. <br>
<br>
Our units are be priced to be affordable, in Canadian $$. And for Canadians<br>
customers this means no import hassles, brokerage fees, exchange commission<br>
or international freight rates. <br>
<br>
Our brewers will make their first public appearance at the Guelph Organic<br>
Conference to be held in Guelph Ontario Jan 24-26th. <br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.guelphorganicconf.org/">http://www.guelphorganicconf.org/</a><br>
<br>
Laura Sabourin<br>
Feast of Fields Inc<br>
Demeter Certified Vineyard &amp; Farm&nbsp; <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://feast-of-fields.ca">http://feast-of-fields.ca</a><br>
EcoVit Aerobic Compost Tea <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://compost-tea.ca">http://compost-tea.ca</a><br>
R R # 1<br>
St Catharines, Ontario L2R 6P7<br>
---------------<br>
9.&nbsp; The article below found that a glyphosate resistance transgene from rr
ready crops was a likely allergen. <br>
<br>
IgE is the family of proteins from the immune system that <br>
activates the allergy response. Further clinical testing is<br>
recommended and the finding certainly refutes the claim the rr ready <br>
crops are substantially equivalent. Such findings should <br>
have triggered a moratorium on growth and sale of the <br>
rr crops but incompetent bureaucrats are waiting for a<br>
body count.<br>
<br>
Screening of transgenic proteins expressed in transgenic food crops for the<br>
presence of short amino acid sequences identical to potential, IgE &#8211; <br>
binding linear epitopes of allergens<br>
Gijs A Kleter&nbsp; and Ad ACM Peijnenburg<br>
BMC Structural Biology 2002 2:8 (published 12 December 2002)<br>
<br>
Abstract<br>
Background:<br>
Transgenic proteins expressed by genetically modified food crops are <br>
evaluated for their potential allergenicity prior to marketing, among others
by<br>
identification of short identical amino acid sequences that occur both <br>
in the transgenic protein and allergenic proteins. A strategy is proposed,
in <br>
which the positive outcomes of the sequence comparison with a minimal length
<br>
of six amino acids are further screened for the presence of potential linear
IgE-<br>
epitopes. This double track approach involves the use of literature data
<br>
on IgE- epitopes and an antigenicity prediction algorithm.<br>
<br>
Results:<br>
Thirty-three transgenic proteins have been screened for identities of at
<br>
least six contiguous amino acids shared with allergenic proteins. Twenty-two<br>
transgenic proteins showed positive results of six- or seven- contiguous
<br>
amino acids length. Only a limited number of identical stretches shared by
<br>
transgenic proteins (papaya ringspot virus coat protein, acetolactate synthase
<br>
GH50, and glyphosate oxidoreductase) and allergenic proteins could be identified
<br>
as (part of) potential linear epitopes.<br>
<br>
Conclusion:<br>
Many transgenic proteins have identical stretches of six or seven amino <br>
acids in common with allergenic proteins. Most identical stretches are likely
<br>
to be false positives. As shown in this study, identical stretches can be
further<br>
screened for relevance by comparison with linear IgE-binding epitopes <br>
described in literature. In the absence of literature data on epitopes, antigenicity<br>
prediction by computer aids to select potential antibody binding sites that<br>
will need verification of IgE binding by sera binding tests. Finally, the<br>
positive outcomes of this approach warrant further clinical testing for<br>
potential allergenicity.<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jcummins@UWO.CA">jcummins@UWO.CA</a><br>
---------------------------<br>
10.&nbsp; Soils tainted with heavy metals harm microbes, but microbes also re-mobilize
heavy metals, increasing plant availability<br>
from New Scientist Print Edition <br>
Soils tainted with heavy metals from industrial pollution and sewage sludge
may poison organisms that live in the soil far more readily than thought.
The finding raises fears that unexpectedly high levels of toxins are getting
into the food chain.<br>
Contaminated soils are given hazard ratings that are based on the key assumption
that organisms can only take up heavy metals and other pollutants if they
are dissolved or suspended in water percolating through the soil. A large
proportion of pollutants are assumed to bind tightly to soil particles, making
them inaccessible to organisms feeding on the soil.<br>
But Renaud Scheifler and his team of soil biologists at the University of
Franche-Comt&eacute; in Besan&ccedil;on, France, have shown that this assumption is wrong.
<br>
They allowed snails to rummage around a container filled with cadmium-contaminated
soil taken from near a disused lead and zinc smelter. After two weeks, they
analysed tissue from the snails and found that around 16 per cent of the
cadmium they had absorbed was from the supposedly inaccessible cadmium bound
tightly to the soil. "Our work is, to our knowledge, the first evidence of
this," says Scheifler.<br>
The finding suggests other heavy metals could also be more "bioavailable"
than assumed, and could be entering the food chain. <br>
"While a lot of research has been done on availability to plants, this paper
addresses the much neglected soil fauna," says UK-based researcher Ian Pulford,
who studies the fate of heavy metals in soil at the University of Glasgow.
"It means that more cadmium than predicted is getting into the food chain,"
he says.<br>
Cadmium can cause kidney damage, anaemia and a painful bone disorder known
as "itai itai", Japanese for "ouch ouch". Hundreds of people living in Yokkaichi,
300 kilometres south-west of Tokyo, developed the disease in the 1950s after
exposure to cadmium from industrial pollution.<br>
It is too early to know whether the finding will lead to improved risk assessment
of tainted soils, says Scheifler. But he says it is now necessary to see
whether other heavy metals such as zinc, copper, lead and mercury are also
getting into the food chain more easily than anyone imagined.<br>
His team also wants to check if other organisms that feed on soil can absorb
heavy metals as readily as the snails. "We have to work with other invertebrates
to find whether the snail is a particular case," he says. Pulford says we
need to understand much more about the role of soil animals in bringing heavy
metals into the food chain.<br>
Journal reference: Environmental Science and Technology (DOI: 10.1021/ es025677w)
<br>
<br>
</body>
</html>

--------------010207090607020500020904--


.

From - Tue Jan 21 13:47:48 2003
X-UIDL: 322735775
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 10000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A3858BF000A6; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 13:37:57 -0500
Received: from intrex.net [209.42.230.61] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A37816E0254; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 13:37:44 -0500
Message-ID: <3E2DBFFC.5040204@intrex.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 13:47:40 -0800
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
Organization: http://market-farming.com  --  Venaura Farm
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To:  lfl@intrex.net
Subject: CompostTea.org
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
 boundary="------------030505000407070907040004"
X-Declude-Sender: lfl@intrex.net [209.42.230.61]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. Whitelisted
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
X-UIDL: 322735775
Status: U

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------030505000407070907040004
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


<http://www.composttea.org/>

-- 
L.F.London
lfl@intrex.net
http://market-farming.com
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/pcwiki/index.php/london

--------------030505000407070907040004
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii;
 name="www.composttea.org/"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline;
 filename="www.composttea.org/"
Content-Base: "http://www.composttea.org/"
Content-Location: "http://www.composttea.org/"

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<title>CompostTea.org</title>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
</head>

<body>
<p align="center"><font size="3" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong>CompostTea.org</strong></font></p>
<p align="center"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Unified 
  voice for the Compost Tea Industry | Marketing opportunities for products and 
  services<br>
  <br>
  Forum for information exchange | Research and education outreach programs | 
  Conferences and seminars</font></p>
<p align="left"><font size="3" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong>Press 
  Release</strong></font><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> 
  | <strong>New Compost Tea Industry Association Formed </strong><br>
  <br>
  Eugene, OR &#8211; December 23, 2002 &#8211; Leaders of the compost tea industry 
  recently formed the Compost Tea Industry Association (CTIA) based in Eugene, 
  Oregon. The membership-based CTIA, an Oregon nonprofit corporation, was created 
  to provide a unified voice and information exchange for this rapidly growing 
  industry. <br>
  <br>
  Compost tea, generally defined as a liquid extract of compost, has gained acceptance 
  by homeowners and commercial growers around the world for its ability to stimulate 
  soil biological activity, improve soil structure, and enhance overall plant 
  health and vigor. Other reported benefits of using compost tea include reduced 
  fungicide and fertilizer requirements and associated cost savings. <br>
  <br>
  The first known commercially available industrial-grade compost tea system was 
  introduced in the United States in 1997. There are now several compost tea systems 
  on the market with a range of features and capacities, reflecting growing demand 
  for these systems and the inception of a new industry.<br>
  <br>
  CTIA will include manufacturers of compost tea systems, producers of compost 
  and vermicompost, and related laboratories, researchers, consultants, growers, 
  vendors and students. <br>
  <br>
  CTIA will also direct the Compost Tea Education and Research Foundation (CTERF)&#8212;recently 
  formed to focus on research, public education and outreach. Created as a charitable 
  organization, the Compost Tea Education and Research Foundation will be funded 
  through tax-deductible donations and research or educational grants. </font></p>
<p align="left"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">For 
  membership information contact: Cindy Salter <a href="mailto:info@composttea.org">info@composttea.org</a> 
  </font></p>
<p align="left"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">541-345-2855 
  | P.O. Box 71894 | Eugene, Oregon 97401 </font></p>
<p align="center">&nbsp;</p>
</body>
</html>

--------------030505000407070907040004--



.

From - Tue Jan 21 22:32:26 2003
X-UIDL: 322735810
X-Mozilla-Status: 0010
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AD40832C014A; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 22:17:20 -0500
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AD2B94B4003C; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 22:16:59 -0500
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00007806@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 22:17:03 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 11211 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Tue, 21 Jan 2003 22:17:03 -0500
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for
          Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00007805@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Tue,
          21 Jan 2003 22:17:03 -0500
Message-ID:  <SANET-MG%2003012122170385@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Date:         Tue, 21 Jan 2003 22:17:03 -0500
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Lisa Stocking <lisastocking@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Mustard meal seed treatment
Comments: To: Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.235]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322735810
Status: U

Hi Saneters and Dr. Ingham,

The discussion on brassicas and their toxic decomposition products is
interesting to me.  I have recently begun a Master's program in Soil
Science at the U of Maryland, and will be doing research on Brassicas as
cover crops that improve soil quality (and therefore plant health/crop
production) for some of the reasons mentioned (plant parasitic nematode
suppression, disease suppression) and not mentioned (weed
germination/growth suppression, nutrient capture and quick release upon
decomposition, penetration through compacted soil).

One of the things we would like to look at in the field is the impact of
Brassica residues on both the plant parasitic and beneficial nematodes.  If
you know of studies investigating this, I'd be interested to have those
citations.  We will not be investigating impacts on pathogens,
bacteria/fungi...except we will look at the infection by mycorrhizal fungi
in subsequent crops (after the cover crops)...as brassicas are thought to
be 'non-hosts' of mycorrhizal fungi and evidently directly allelopathic.

In case some are interested, the article Dr. Ingham referred to (I believe)
is "Allelopathic effects of litter on the growth and colonization of
mycorrhizal fungi" by Rose, Perry, Pilz, Schoeneberger Journal of Chemical
Ecology August 1983 v 9 (8) p 1153-1162.  I will have to look it up
tomorrow at the library.

So far, the discussion has referred mainly to seed meal...and also tilling
in broccoli.  My understanding is that glucosinolate concentration is quite
high in the seeds, and thus the potential for use as fungicides.  In terms
of using living plants (or recently killed-like broccoli) as biocontrol
agents, there are a lot of factors to consider.  Rapeseeds and mustards
seem to be the most 'potent' but even then, the effectiveness varies
greatly from one cultivar to the next.  Also, the life stage of the plant
affects the glucosinolate concentrations in the plant.  For different
plants different parts of the plant may be more toxic than others upon
decomposition (ie roots or tops)...and environmental conditions influence
glucosinolate concentrations as well.  Residues (compounds released during
decomposition) from Brassicas have been shown to reduce seed germination
and growth...and there is concern about affecting the vigor of crop seeds
as well....thus recommendations for planting seeds 2 weeks later or so.
Lastly, some plant parasitic nematode populations may be controlled through
starvation (poor hosts) rather than direct allelopathy.  I thought it would
be useful to bring up these topics since the effects of Brassica residues
and mechanisms of impact on soil ecology is not as well understood as we
might think.

In regards to the dominance of plant parasitic nematodes or some other
pathogen in the soil...and controlling it through the use of
fungicides...this is where I think the use of cover crops is especially
attractive.  I would imagine that the organic matter additions from the
Brassica cover crops could help to improve a farmer's soil...as he
transitions from perhaps an 'input-output' mindset, to a biological farming
mindset (which might in the long run improve his soil quality such that
there is no longer the dominance of a plant antagonist).  In regards to the
impact on mycorrhizae, perhaps polycultures of cover crops would be
effective? but perhaps those hosts would be plant parasitic
nematode/pathogen hosts?

There are lots of different people researching these apparent 'multiple
benefits' of Brassicas right now.  We have selected to work with rape,
oilseed radish, forage radish, mustards, and potentially turnip, as well as
combinations with other cover crops.  For those of you researching, reading
about, or farming with Brassicas for some of these benefits, I'd be
interested to hear of your experiences.

Thanks for the interesting dialogue!

Lisa Stocking

Soil Science
UMD

.

From - Sun Jan 26 00:16:28 2003
X-UIDL: 322736073
X-Mozilla-Status: 0010
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A3AAD68300A0; Sat, 25 Jan 2003 22:19:06 -0500
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A3883158017E; Sat, 25 Jan 2003 22:18:32 -0500
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.000081B0@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sat, 25 Jan 2003 22:18:44 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 14103 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sat, 25 Jan 2003 22:18:44 -0500
Received: from hotmail.com (f116.pav2.hotmail.com) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP
          for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.000081AF@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>;
          Sat, 25 Jan 2003 22:18:44 -0500
Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat,
          25 Jan 2003 19:18:07 -0800
Received: from 128.114.172.216 by pv2fd.pav2.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 26
          Jan 2003 03:18:06 GMT
X-Originating-IP: [128.114.172.216]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Jan 2003 03:18:07.0205 (UTC)
                       FILETIME=[8BD28950:01C2C4E9]
Message-ID:  <F116Gp33khCFQGKpRmD00002826@hotmail.com>
Date:         Sun, 26 Jan 2003 03:18:06 +0000
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         gil carandang <gil_carandang@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Roberto reply
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.235]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322736073
Status: U

Hi everyone,

My name is Gil Carandang of Herbana Farms from the Philippines.  I recently
finished my apprenticeship in ecological horticulture here in University of
California Santa Cruz and was invited to conduct a workshop on Indigenous
Microorganisms (IMO of the Korean Natural Farming Association) at the
Ecological Farming Conference in Asilomar.

I just finished the said workshop last Thursday on full packed crowd.
Everybody were excited.  Everybody happy with the workshop.  A lot of people
have requested the possibility of conducting an in depth workshop on the
Indigenous Microorganisms.  Ecofarm is thinking of workshop for farmer
members while I am still here in the US.  I expect to be around in the next
3 weeks.

I conducted the workshop with Steve Diver of ATTRA.  I expect that he will
post information on the said workshop and will provide more information on
this technology.

So anyone, who may be interested for me to conduct an in depth workshop (1-3
days) on this interesting technology:  Indigenous Microorganisms: Grow Your
Own, let me know through the e-mail.  It will cover the culture of several
beneficial indigenous microorganisms like lacto bacilli, forest
microorganisms, bamboo and plant specific microorganisms and preparations of
several types of bionutrients.  You can check the website of Ecofarm:
www.eco-farm.org

I will be more than glad to share this Indigenous Microorganisms culture to
empower the American farmers!

Gil A. Carandang
Herbana Farms
Philippines
cell no. (while in the US) 831-251-3159






>From: Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
>Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
><SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
>To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
>Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] Roberto reply
>Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 21:40:54 EST
>
>Hi Elaine. I just realized I asked my question in a private msg, and
>your reply was also a private one. I have re-sent my query to the
>list. I could forward your reply but it will come out under my name.
>You might want to resend to the list. Thanks and regards,
>
>Roberto
>
>
>On 22 Jan 2003 at 11:40, Soilfoodweb@aol.com wrote:
>
> > Roberto makes a good point - the set of microbes that live on leaves has
>a
>different composition from the set of microbes living in the root system.
> >
> > So, do we have to have a different compost for each of these different
>places?  A different compost for roses as compared to beets?  A different
>compost for the top of the leaf as compared to the bottom?
> >
> > No.  What we have to do is MAXIMIZE diversity in the compost. ALL the
>organisms need to be present in whatever compost you use.  Then, let the
>plant "choose" which set of organisms will survive and grow.
> >
> > How does the plant determine which set of organisms grows?  By the
>exudates
>the plant puts out.  Lucky us, the plant can do part of the work!  All we
>have to do is make compost that has all the organisms needed, no matter
>what
>habitat, in the compost.
> >
> > So, would we want A FEW anaerobic microsites in the compost?  Yes, so we
>would have a few of the anaerobes, just in case the plant might be able to
>support their growth too.  But most of the compost needs to be aerobic.
>So,
>a few chunks that limit oxygen diffusion is fine, but the majority of
>the pile has to maintain good oxygen levels.
> >
> >
> > Hope this helps!
> >
> > Elaine Ingham
> > President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
> > Corvallis, OR
> > Port Jefferson, NY
> > Lismore, NSW, Australia
> > Hilversum, The Netherlands
> > www.soilfoodweb.com
>
>
>
>President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
>www.soilfoodweb.com


_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

.

From - Mon Jan 27 21:31:16 2003
X-UIDL: 322736132
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A50856FF014E; Mon, 27 Jan 2003 14:14:16 -0500
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A4EBD76C0042; Mon, 27 Jan 2003 14:13:47 -0500
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.000084AE@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Mon, 27 Jan 2003 14:13:56 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 0560 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 27 Jan 2003 14:13:56 -0500
Received: from smtp1.us4.outblaze.com (205-158-62-78.outblaze.com) by
          lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id
          <0.000084AD@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Mon, 27 Jan 2003 14:13:55 -0500
Received: (qmail 21417 invoked from network); 27 Jan 2003 19:13:33 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO jeffu9jv0ylyde)
          (jeff:gardener.com?iname.com@209.112.210.18) by
          205-158-62-78.outblaze.com with SMTP; 27 Jan 2003 19:13:33 -0000
References:  <6D9F17809993D31198B100508B6201610CD584A7@nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0059_01C2C5ED.135C43D0"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106
Message-ID:  <005c01c2c61f$61a58b00$a103fea9@jeffu9jv0ylyde>
Date:         Mon, 27 Jan 2003 10:15:54 -0600
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Jeff Lowenfels <jeff@GARDENER.COM>
Subject: New Compost Tea Group
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.235]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322736132
Status: U

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C2C5ED.135C43D0
Content-Type: text/plain;
        charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 This looks like a good group....just formed and obviously needed....

Cheers,

Jeff L

 We are proud to be making the following=20
announcement...                                                      =20
----------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                    =20
COMPOST TEA INDUSTRY COUNCIL FORMED
Bellevue, Washington



Recognizing that advances in compost tea making have created the need=20
to insure the confidence of the growing consumer public using and=20
brewing compost teas, several members of the industry today announced=20
formation of The International Compost Tea Council.  "The ICTC  is a=20
non-profit organization dedicated to the science and integrity of=20
compost tea," explained Tina Peterson, the acting Executive Director=20
of the group.=20



The use of compost tea in organic gardening and farming as well as=20
for yard care has grown dramatically in the past five years.  "It has=20
only been recently that scientists have begun to understand, test for=20
and document the full range of interactions of beneficial micro-
organisms in soils and their importance to plants. We want to make=20
sure that this science is applied properly," Peterson continued.



"It has become obvious that an organization was needed to acknowledge=20
and answer questions, provide supporting research and information,=20
and try and unify the voices of this new industry," explained one of=20
the incorporating members, Steve Burstkern, an independent tea=20
consultant. "In addition to questions from the public, regulating=20
agencies also need sound, scientific data," he added.



The modern day use of compost tea is an offshoot of better=20
understanding of soil science brought about in the past 18 years=20
largely a result of the electron microscope. Aerating a compost,=20
water and microbial nutrient mix makes today's compost teas a vast=20
improvement over passive, anaerobic compost and water teas previously=20
used.=20



It is out of this science that a new technology, though based on=20
older natural methods, has been born. " The manufacture of aerobic=20
compost tea and brewers and tea application itself have resulted in a=20
growing industry. On top of everything else, we need to set a=20
standard to insure the highest quality within our own industry=20
first," added Leon Hussey, manufacturer of a home brewer and another=20
of the incorporating members, "and an industry wide council is the=20
way to do that best."




Membership is open to all individuals interested in compost tea, from=20
the homeowner to the professional brewer manufacturer and all related=20
industries.

Providing education and information for all levels of expertise is a=20
key role for this group. The ICTC will be hosting seminars on compost=20
tea and organic practices. Visit www.intlctc.org=20
<http://www.intlctc.org/> for information and science on compost tea,=20
events, news, information, standards and membership requirements.=20













------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C2C5ED.135C43D0
Content-Type: text/html;
        charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1126" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New">&nbsp;</FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D4>This looks=20
like a good group....just formed and obviously needed....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D4>Cheers,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D4>Jeff L</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New">&nbsp;We are proud to be making the =
following=20
<BR>announcement...&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>---------------------------------------------------------------------=
-<BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------=
-<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>COMPOST TEA INDUSTRY COUNCIL FORMED<BR>Bellevue,=20
Washington<BR><BR><BR><BR>Recognizing that advances in compost tea =
making have=20
created the need <BR>to insure the confidence of the growing consumer =
public=20
using and <BR>brewing compost teas, several members of the industry =
today=20
announced <BR>formation of The International Compost Tea Council.&nbsp; =
"The=20
ICTC&nbsp; is a <BR>non-profit organization dedicated to the science and =

integrity of <BR>compost tea," explained Tina Peterson, the acting =
Executive=20
Director <BR>of the group. <BR><BR><BR><BR>The use of compost tea in =
organic=20
gardening and farming as well as <BR>for yard care has grown =
dramatically in the=20
past five years.&nbsp; "It has <BR>only been recently that scientists =
have begun=20
to understand, test for <BR>and document the full range of interactions =
of=20
beneficial micro-<BR>organisms in soils and their importance to plants. =
We want=20
to make <BR>sure that this science is applied properly," Peterson=20
continued.<BR><BR><BR><BR>"It has become obvious that an organization =
was needed=20
to acknowledge <BR>and answer questions, provide supporting research and =

information, <BR>and try and unify the voices of this new industry," =
explained=20
one of <BR>the incorporating members, Steve Burstkern, an independent =
tea=20
<BR>consultant. "In addition to questions from the public, regulating=20
<BR>agencies also need sound, scientific data," he =
added.<BR><BR><BR><BR>The=20
modern day use of compost tea is an offshoot of better <BR>understanding =
of soil=20
science brought about in the past 18 years <BR>largely a result of the =
electron=20
microscope. Aerating a compost, <BR>water and microbial nutrient mix =
makes=20
today's compost teas a vast <BR>improvement over passive, anaerobic =
compost and=20
water teas previously <BR>used. <BR><BR><BR><BR>It is out of this =
science that a=20
new technology, though based on <BR>older natural methods, has been =
born. " The=20
manufacture of aerobic <BR>compost tea and brewers and tea application =
itself=20
have resulted in a <BR>growing industry. On top of everything else, we =
need to=20
set a <BR>standard to insure the highest quality within our own industry =

<BR>first," added Leon Hussey, manufacturer of a home brewer and another =
<BR>of=20
the incorporating members, "and an industry wide council is the <BR>way =
to do=20
that best."<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Membership is open to all individuals =
interested=20
in compost tea, from <BR>the homeowner to the professional brewer =
manufacturer=20
and all related <BR>industries.<BR><BR>Providing education and =
information for=20
all levels of expertise is a <BR>key role for this group. The ICTC will =
be=20
hosting seminars on compost <BR>tea and organic practices. Visit =
www.intlctc.org=20
<BR>&lt;</FONT><A href=3D"http://www.intlctc.org/"><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New">http://www.intlctc.org/</FONT></A><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New">&gt; for information and science on compost tea, =
<BR>events,=20
news, information, standards and membership requirements.=20
<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR></DIV></FONT></BODY><=
/HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C2C5ED.135C43D0--

.

From - Mon Jan 27 21:41:10 2003
X-UIDL: 322736156
X-Mozilla-Status: 0000
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A977F3B00D4; Mon, 27 Jan 2003 21:22:47 -0500
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A9501C92027E; Mon, 27 Jan 2003 21:22:08 -0500
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00008553@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Mon, 27 Jan 2003 21:22:24 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 0745 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 27 Jan 2003 21:22:24 -0500
Received: from wind.imbris.com by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT
          v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00008552@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Mon, 27 Jan 2003
          21:22:23 -0500
Received: from chuck.hillnet.com (sandpoint-44.imbris.com [216.18.141.44]) by
          wind.imbris.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h0S2QCB11890 for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Mon, 27 Jan 2003 18:26:12 -0800 (PST)
X-Sender: benbrook/mail.nidlink.com@pop3.norton.antivirus
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Message-ID:  <5.0.0.25.2.20030127180710.00a28eb0@pop3.norton.antivirus>
Date:         Mon, 27 Jan 2003 18:22:16 -0800
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Chuck Benbrook <benbrook@HILLNET.COM>
Subject: Impacts of Farming Systems on Pesticide Residues
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.235]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322736156
Status: U

         I presented a paper last week at the EcoFarm conference at
Asilomar.  It was on pesticide residues in organic vs. conventional
food.  It includes new data from 1999-2000 Calif. DPR testing, as well as
2001-2002 British testing (they found same basic pattern of residues as
U.S. testing programs).  It argues that on the food safety-pesticide front,
the scientific case is now rock solid that consuming organic food is a
reliable way to markedly reduce pesticide dietary exposures, and hence
risk; and second, that recent toxicological and epi studies strongly
support the conclusion that for pregnant women, infants, and children,
current levels of exposure in the diet cannot be defended as safe.  This is
the basic conclusion reached by EPA in its cumulative risk assessment of
the OPs, and why further reg. actions on high-risk OPs are needed.

         The paper is at --

http://www.biotech-info.net/Ecofarm_Food_Safety.pdf

         Our friend and frequent Sanet contributor Steve Diver organized an
excellent session at EcoFarm on effective microorganisms, and how the
presence of diverse and abundant populations of microorganisms appears to
the "nuts and bolts" of ecological processes leading to what is typical
thought of as "health."  Really excellent job.

         Reading the latest Feedstuffs this a.m., there is an article on
the use of Bacillus cereus feed amendments for poultry, which are,
according to the Feedstuffs story, proving effective as a substitute for
subtherapeutic antibiotics.  Made me think of Steve's presentation, which
reported all kinds of seemingly miraculous positive impacts of feeding,
eating, or incorporating microorganism-rich broths, composts, compost teas
in all sorts of circumstances.  I was pleased and surprised to see that
even the modern broiler industry was trying such approaches, with some success.

         Comments on the EcoFarm paper welcomed.  If we can find support,
we will be refining/extending the analytical work in this paper to 2001 PDP
results, and more data from Great Britain, later this year.  If anyone
knows of other datasets allowing comparisons of residue levels as a
function of farming/pest management systems and technology, please advise
how I can get my hands on them.  If anyone would be willing to help fund
the res. chemistry work, we will do some of this work ourselves.  Res.
chemistry, however, is pretty expensive.

                 Chuck



_________________________________________________________________

Charles Benbrook         Ag BioTech InfoNet  <http://www.biotech-info.net>
Benbrook Consulting Services  CU FQPA site <http://www.ecologic-ipm.com>
5085 Upper Pack River Road            IPM site <http://www.pmac.net>
Sandpoint, Idaho  83864
Voice: (208)-263-5236
Fax: (208)-263-7342
E-mail: <benbrook@hillnet.com>

.

From - Tue Jan 28 14:40:56 2003
X-UIDL: 322736205
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 10000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AA808E8600F2; Tue, 28 Jan 2003 14:31:12 -0500
Received: from intrex.net [209.42.230.61] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AA5F24F10238; Tue, 28 Jan 2003 14:30:39 -0500
Message-ID: <3E3706EF.6090405@intrex.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 14:40:47 -0800
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
Organization: http://market-farming.com  --  Venaura Farm
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To:  lfl@intrex.net
Subject: Welcome to WHIG - World Humus Interest Group
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
 boundary="------------070009000406050904000701"
X-Declude-Sender: lfl@intrex.net [209.42.230.61]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. Whitelisted
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
X-UIDL: 322736205
Status: U

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------070009000406050904000701
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


<http://www.humusworkshop.org/>

-- 
L.F.London
lfl@intrex.net
http://market-farming.com
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/pcwiki/index.php/london

--------------070009000406050904000701
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1;
 name="www.humusworkshop.org/"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline;
 filename="www.humusworkshop.org/"
Content-Base: "http://www.humusworkshop.org/"
Content-Location: "http://www.humusworkshop.org/"

<html>

	<head>
		<meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html;charset=3DISO-88=
59-1">
		<title>Welcome to WHIG - World Humus Interest Group</title>
		<META name=3D"robots" content=3D"index,nofollow">
<meta name=3D"description" content=3D"A meeting place with a message boar=
d for those concerned with healthy soil!">
<meta name=3D"keywords" content=3D"humus, humate, soil, fertilizer, pesti=
cide, nutrient, dirt, life, micro, leaves, worm, mulch, science, earth, h=
ealth, healthy, compost, kompost, garden, farm, vegetable, fruit, vineyar=
d, orchard, microbe, grass, recycle, jesus, christ, god, love, peace, tru=
th, christian">
<meta name=3D"Classification" content=3D"agricuture, farming, recycling, =
microbiology, biology, gardening"
	</head>

	<body bgcolor=3D"#ffffff">
	=09
<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" width=3D"591">
  <!--DWLayoutTable-->
  <tr height=3D"71">=20
    <td width=3D"380" height=3D"71"><map name=3D"guest_navbarb6a8aca9">
        <area shape=3D"rect" coords=3D"356,56,395,68" href=3D"links/index=
=2Ehtml">
        <area shape=3D"rect" coords=3D"229,56,300,68" href=3D"compostinfo=
/index.html">
        <area shape=3D"rect" coords=3D"106,55,204,68" href=3D"bios/index.=
html">
        <area shape=3D"rect" coords=3D"9,55,86,69" href=3D"cgi-bin/ikonbo=
ard/ikonboard.cgi">
      </map>
      <img src=3D"guest_navbar.gif" width=3D"405" height=3D"71" border=3D=
"0" usemap=3D"#guest_navbarb6a8aca9">=20
    </td>
    <td width=3D"186" height=3D"71">&nbsp;</td>
  </tr>
</table>
		<table border=3D"1" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0">
			<tr>
				<td width=3D"587">
					<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"10" width=3D"58=
6">
						<tr valign=3D"top" align=3D"left">
							<td width=3D"214" valign=3D"top" align=3D"left"><font face=3D"Treb=
uchet MS" color=3D"#663300" size=3D"-1">This site has been established in=
 order to bring together all of the great studies and techniques of humus=
 production, throughout the world. The whole principle behind such a coll=
aboration is to get the find what materials and methods make the most sus=
tainable humus. We would like to note that some information on this web s=
ite may be anonymous. Although some may have individual's names attached,=
 this is only for future collaboration purposes.</font>
								<p><font face=3D"Trebuchet MS" color=3D"#663300" size=3D"-1">Worl=
d H</font><font face=3D"Trebuchet MS" color=3D"#663300" size=3D"-1">umus =
Interest Group was inspired by a small group of Swiss farmers, whom take =
humus as seriously as we all should. The Swiss are admired for their prec=
ise thoughts, actions and products. In Germany, komposting has been refin=
ed to near perfection. A small Austrian Farmer has come closest to perfec=
ting the method of making the highest quality humus. Some of us have been=
 fortunate enough to have been exposed to the work of Mr. Seigfreid L&uum=
l;bke (Lube-Ka). Mr L&uuml;bke has completed circle after circle of resea=
rch to application. Being a self taught micro-biologist and farmer, by tr=
ade, he has been able to experiment on philosophy, in the lab, then make =
it work in the field with tremendous success. This website will include s=
ome of Mr L&uuml;bke's work, but we will definitely not limit our knowled=
ge to this single man's work. No one person or group holds </font><font f=
ace=3D"Trebuchet MS" color=3D"#663300" size=3D"-1"><u>all</u></font><font=
 face=3D"Trebuchet MS" color=3D"#663300" size=3D"-1"> the answers. As a g=
roup of people, focused on building nothing but the best humus, we are af=
ter nothing but the bottom line....the absolute truths of what makes humu=
s its best!</font></p>
								<p><font face=3D"Trebuchet MS" color=3D"#663300" size=3D"-1">One =
must remember that soil is one of the most dynamic life forms we have ava=
ilable, that can work tremendously in our favor. Countless populations of=
 microscopic organisms not only make soil a store house of nutrients for =
plants but also act as a filter for surface water being recycled into gro=
und water. Soil is much more than just dirt!</font></p>
							</td>
							<td width=3D"214" valign=3D"top">
								<div align=3D"left">
									<p><font face=3D"Trebuchet MS" color=3D"#663300" size=3D"-1">Our=
 mission is to take what knowledge and talent each one of us has been giv=
en and join it all together so that we can complement the weaknesses of e=
ach other. This will allow us to see the whole picture much more clearly.=
 We all have parts of a large puzzle. We need to put it together now!  Ou=
r largest goal is to create the highest quality of life, for the ones we =
love. There are so many people who have devoted lifetimes to this cause. =
Let's gather the information they have compiled, and put it to the ultima=
te tests. This website will consist of the most intriguing information ev=
er assembled about highly sustainable humus !</font></p>
									<p><font face=3D"Trebuchet MS" color=3D"#663300" size=3D"-1">Bel=
iefs:</font></p>
								</div>
								<ul>
									<div align=3D"left">
										<li><font face=3D"Trebuchet MS" color=3D"#663300" size=3D"-1">t=
hat good soil is at the root of a healthy life</font>
										<li><font face=3D"Trebuchet MS" color=3D"#663300" size=3D"-1">a=
 soil that is fully dynamic in micro-life will fix problems in our societ=
y that we cannot even imagine at this point in time</font>
										<li><font face=3D"Trebuchet MS" color=3D"#663300" size=3D"-1">t=
hat the remedies for <u>all</u> health ailments are in nature (rooted int=
o humus)</font>
										<li><font face=3D"Trebuchet MS" color=3D"#663300" size=3D"-1">t=
hat if we let truth guide us, we will make many great discoveries</font>
										<li><font face=3D"Trebuchet MS" color=3D"#663300" size=3D"-1">t=
his is a movement that only proceeds in the correct direction when all in=
volved continue to realize that we know &quot;nothing in the realm of eve=
rything&quot;</font>
										<li><font face=3D"Trebuchet MS" color=3D"#663300" size=3D"-1">b=
y humbling ourselves we learn and teach so much more quickly</font>
										<li><font face=3D"Trebuchet MS" color=3D"#663300" size=3D"-1">n=
o one should be involved in this collaboration for only personal gain</fo=
nt>
									</div>
								</ul>
								<div align=3D"left">
									<p><font face=3D"Trebuchet MS" color=3D"#663300" size=3D"-1">Cre=
ating humus is the cornerstone to naturally sustainable soils. Naturally =
sustainable soils are the foundation of a fully dynamic natural system.</=
font></p>
								</div>
								<div align=3D"right"></div>
								<ul>
									<div align=3D"left"></div>
								</ul>
							</td>
						=09
          <td valign=3D"top" width=3D"158"><p><font face=3D"Arial, Helvet=
ica, sans-serif"><img src=3D"images/football_new.gif" width=3D"43" height=
=3D"18" border=3D"0"><br>
              </font><font color=3D"#84167D" face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sa=
ns-serif"><em>December=20
              12, 2002</em></font></p>
            <p><em><strong><font color=3D"#84167D" face=3D"Arial, Helveti=
ca, sans-serif">Availlable=20
              now ...</font></strong></em></p>
            <p><font color=3D"#663300" face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-ser=
if"><strong><font color=3D"#006600" size=3D"-1">Paul=20
              Sachs shares his understandings and ideas about compost tea=
 usage=20
              and production</font></strong></font></p>
            <p><font color=3D"#663300" face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-ser=
if"><strong><font size=3D"-1"><a href=3D"http://www.unisun.org/data/text/=
channels/soilfolder/paulsachsinterview.htm" target=3D"_blank">click=20
              here to listen to the interview using realone player<br>
              </a></font></strong></font><br>
              <font size=3D"-2" face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><a =
href=3D"http://www.Realone.com/" target=3D"_blank">Get=20
              RealOne Player<br>
              <br>
              </a></font><font face=3D"Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSa=
ns-Regular" size=3D"-1" color=3D"#006600"><b><font color=3D"#663300" size=
=3D"-1" face=3D"Trebuchet MS">If=20
              you have suggestions about guests that would be good interv=
iews=20
              on our show drop us an e-mail.<br>
              <a href=3D"mailto:mike@humusworkshop.org">(humusworkshop=20
              online)</a></font></b></font></p>
            <p><font face=3D"Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular=
" size=3D"-1" color=3D"#006600"><b><font color=3D"#663300" size=3D"-1" fa=
ce=3D"Trebuchet MS">Online=20
              interviews are going to give us all years of growing knowle=
dge.=20
              We can all understand the concepts of good soil management<=
/font>....with=20
              help from others :)</b></font></p>
            <p><a href=3D"cgi-bin/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi"><font face=3D"=
Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular" size=3D"+1">Bulletin=20
              Board</font></a></p>
            <p><font face=3D"Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular=
" size=3D"-1" color=3D"#006600">I=20
              would like to invite us all to bring leaders to the foregro=
und.=20
              There is now a section called &quot;Inside Biographies&quot=
;. This=20
              section will be comprised of individuals that are successfu=
l in=20
              creating riches from healthy soil. If you know someone or w=
ould=20
              like to share some information yourself please notify me at=
: <a href=3D"mailto:mike@humus.org">mike@humusworkshop.org</a></font><fon=
t face=3D"Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular" size=3D"-1" color=
=3D"#006600"><b>=20
              </b></font></p>
            <p><font face=3D"Trebuchet MS" color=3D"#663300" size=3D"-1">=
<b>2000 &amp;=20
              2001news on Genetic Engineering---</b></font><font size=3D"=
-1"><a href=3D"http://www.netlink.de/gen/Zeitung/2002/home.html" target=3D=
"_blank"><font face=3D"Trebuchet MS" color=3D"#3232ff"><br>
              CLICK HERE<br>
              </font></a></font>=20
              <!-- HTML Markup startspan -->
              <MOREOVER_CLONE_JAVASCRIPT_START_DO_NOT_DELETE>=20
              <SCRIPT LANGUAGE=3D"Javascript">
  // the array global_article is used to allow multiple categories
  var global_article =3D new Array()
  var global_article_counter =3D 0
  var article =3D null
  var early_exit =3D 0
  var moreover_text =3D 0;
  // do not remove this function clone()
  function load_wizard()
    {
   =20
    var newwin =3D window.open("","clone","resizable,scrollbars,width=3D5=
00");
    document.forms.moreover_clone.submit();
    return true;
    }
  // end of do not remove this function clone()
  </SCRIPT>
              <SCRIPT LANGUAGE=3D"Javascript" SRC=3D"http://p.moreover.co=
m/cgi-local/page?index_agriculture+js">
  </SCRIPT>
              <SCRIPT LANGUAGE=3D"Javascript">
  // load global_article array with articles from cluster
  if (article !=3D null)
    {
    for (var article_counter =3D 0; article_counter < Math.min(5,article.=
length); article_counter++)
      {
      global_article[global_article_counter] =3D article[article_counter]=

      global_article[global_article_counter].url +=3D "' TARGET=3D'_blank=
"
      global_article[global_article_counter].document_url +=3D "' TARGET=3D=
'_blank"
      global_article_counter++
      }
    }
  else
    {
    if (early_exit =3D=3D 0)
      {
      document.writeln("<center>Please reload this page to view the headl=
ines</center>")
      early_exit =3D 1
      }
    }
  </SCRIPT>
              <SCRIPT LANGUAGE=3D"Javascript" SRC=3D"http://p.moreover.co=
m/dont_redirect/wizard_text.js"></SCRIPT>
              <SCRIPT LANGUAGE=3D"Javascript">
  if (early_exit =3D=3D 0)
  {
  var width =3D "150"
  var category =3D ""
  var numberofarticles =3D global_article.length
  var item_spacing =3D "5"
  var cluster_bgcolor =3D "ffffff"
  var cluster_border =3D "0"
  var heading_display =3D "Yes"
  var time_display =3D "Yes"
  var cell_spacing =3D "0"
  var cell_padding =3D "1"
  var heading_bgcolor
  var heading_font
  var heading_font_size
  var heading_fgcolor
  var headline_bgcolor
  var headline_font
  var headline_font_size
  var headline_fgcolor
  var source_font
  var source_font_size
  var source_fgcolor
  var access_font
  var access_font_size
  var access_fgcolor
  var time_font
  var time_font_size
  var time_fgcolor
  var time =3D new Array(global_article.length)
=20
  // Print out the table containing the headlines
  document.writeln("<CENTER><TABLE BORDER=3D"+cluster_border+" BGCOLOR=3D=
'#"+cluster_bgcolor+"' WIDTH=3D'"+width+"' CELLPADDING=3D2 CELLSPACING=3D=
0>")
  document.writeln("<tr><td align=3D'center'><a href=3D'http://www.hitbox=
=2Ecom' target=3D'Hitbox'><img src=3D'http://i.moreover.com/images/brande=
d_wizards/hitbox_blank.gif' border=3D'0'></a></td></tr>")
  document.writeln("<TR><TD><CENTER><TABLE BGCOLOR=3D'#"+cluster_bgcolor+=
"' CELLPADDING=3D"+cell_padding+" CELLSPACING=3D"+cell_spacing+"  WIDTH=3D=
'100%'>")
=20
  // Start loop for articles
  for (var counter=3D0; counter < numberofarticles; counter++)
    {
    // Reset formatting settings to original values
    heading_bgcolor =3D "ffffff"
    heading_font =3D "Verdana, Arial,Helvetica, sans-serif"
    heading_font_size =3D "-1"
    heading_fgcolor =3D "000099"
    headline_bgcolor =3D "ffffff"
    headline_font =3D "Verdana, Arial,Helvetica, sans-serif"
    headline_font_size =3D "-2"
    headline_fgcolor =3D "66330"
    source_font =3D "Verdana, Arial,Helvetica, sans-serif"
    source_font_size =3D "-3"
    source_fgcolor =3D "008000"
    access_font =3D "Verdana, Arial,Helvetica, sans-serif"
    access_font_size =3D "-3"
    access_fgcolor =3D "008000"
    time_font =3D "Verdana, Arial,Helvetica, sans-serif"
    time_font_size =3D "-3"
    time_fgcolor =3D "008000"
=20
    if ((counter =3D=3D (global_article.length - 1)) && moreover_text =3D=
=3D 1)=20
      {=20
      headline_fgcolor =3D source_fgcolor;=20
      time_display =3D "No";
      }
=20
    // Check for new category
    if ((category !=3D global_article[counter].cluster) && (heading_displ=
ay =3D=3D "Yes"))
      {
      // Set current category to new category
      category =3D global_article[counter].cluster
=20
      // Print a new category heading
      document.writeln("<TR BGCOLOR=3D'#"+heading_bgcolor+"'><TD>")
      document.writeln("<FONT SIZE=3D"+heading_font_size+" FACE=3D"+headi=
ng_font+" COLOR=3D'#"+heading_fgcolor+"'>")
      document.writeln("<B>"+global_article[counter].cluster+"</B></FONT>=
</TD></TR>")
      }
=20
    // Print out the headline
    document.writeln("<TR BGCOLOR=3D'#"+headline_bgcolor+"'><TD><A HREF=3D=
'"+global_article[counter].url+"' >")
    document.writeln("<FONT SIZE=3D"+headline_font_size+" FACE=3D"+headli=
ne_font+" COLOR=3D'#"+headline_fgcolor+"'")
    document.writeln(">"+global_article[counter].headline_text+"...</FONT=
></A><br>")
=20
   =20
      // Print out the source
        if ((counter !=3D (global_article.length - 1)) || moreover_text !=
=3D 1)
        {
        document.writeln("<A HREF=3D'"+global_article[counter].document_u=
rl+"' >")
        document.writeln("<FONT FACE=3D"+source_font+" SIZE=3D"+source_fo=
nt_size+" COLOR=3D'#"+source_fgcolor+"'>")
        document.writeln(""+global_article[counter].source+"</FONT></A>&n=
bsp;&nbsp;")
        }
   =20
=20
    // Print out reg/sub if appropriate
    if (global_article[counter].access_status =3D=3D "sub" || global_arti=
cle[counter].access_status =3D=3D "reg")
      {
      document.writeln(" <A HREF=3D'"+global_article[counter].access_regi=
stration+"'>")
      document.writeln("<FONT FACE=3D"+access_font+" SIZE=3D"+access_font=
_size)
      document.writeln(" COLOR=3D'#"+access_fgcolor+"'>"+global_article[c=
ounter].access_status+"</FONT></A>&nbsp;&nbsp;")
      }
=20
    // Print out the harvest time
    if (time_display =3D=3D "Yes")
      {
      // Make a new date object
      time[counter] =3D new Date(global_article[counter].harvest_time)
      time[counter].setHours(time[counter].getHours() - (time[counter].ge=
tTimezoneOffset() / 60 )) // adjust the time to local
      document.writeln("<FONT FACE=3D"+time_font+" SIZE=3D"+time_font_siz=
e+" COLOR=3D'#"+time_fgcolor+"'>")
      document.writeln(""+time[counter].toString()+"</FONT>")
      }=20
=20
    document.writeln("</TD></TR><TR BGCOLOR=3D'#"+headline_bgcolor+"'><TD=
 BGCOLOR=3D'#"+headline_bgcolor+"' HEIGHT=3D"+item_spacing+"></TD></TR>")=

    } // End of article loop
=20
  // Start of clone button code //
  // Note: Do not remove any of the code in this section //
  document.writeln("<FORM METHOD=3D'POST' ACTION=3D'http://w.moreover.com=
/cgi-local/wizard_clone.pl' target=3D'clone' name=3D'moreover_clone'>")
  document.writeln("<INPUT TYPE=3D'hidden' NAME=3D'heading_font_size' VAL=
UE=3D'-2'><INPUT TYPE=3D'hidden' NAME=3D'source_font_size' VALUE=3D'-3'>"=
)
  document.writeln("<INPUT TYPE=3D'hidden' NAME=3D'cluster_width' VALUE=3D=
'150'><INPUT TYPE=3D'hidden' NAME=3D'time_display' VALUE=3D'Yes'>")
  document.writeln("<INPUT TYPE=3D'hidden' NAME=3D'time_font' VALUE=3D'Ve=
rdana, Arial,Helvetica, sans-serif'><INPUT TYPE=3D'hidden' NAME=3D'cluste=
r_cellspacing' VALUE=3D'0'>")
  document.writeln("<INPUT TYPE=3D'hidden' NAME=3D'heading_font' VALUE=3D=
'Verdana, Arial,Helvetica, sans-serif'><INPUT TYPE=3D'hidden' NAME=3D'num=
ber_of_headlines' VALUE=3D'5'>")
  document.writeln("<INPUT TYPE=3D'hidden' NAME=3D'cluster_bgcolor' VALUE=
=3D'ffffff'><INPUT TYPE=3D'hidden' NAME=3D'time_fgcolor' VALUE=3D'008000'=
>")
  document.writeln("<INPUT TYPE=3D'hidden' NAME=3D'access_fgcolor' VALUE=3D=
'008000'><INPUT TYPE=3D'hidden' NAME=3D'time_font_size' VALUE=3D'-3'>")
  document.writeln("<INPUT TYPE=3D'hidden' NAME=3D'headline_bgcolor' VALU=
E=3D'ffffff'><INPUT TYPE=3D'hidden' NAME=3D'cluster_name' VALUE=3D'index_=
agriculture'>")
  document.writeln("<INPUT TYPE=3D'hidden' NAME=3D'access_font_size' VALU=
E=3D'-3'><INPUT TYPE=3D'hidden' NAME=3D'heading_display' VALUE=3D'Yes'>")=

  document.writeln("<INPUT TYPE=3D'hidden' NAME=3D'headline_fgcolor' VALU=
E=3D'800080'><INPUT TYPE=3D'hidden' NAME=3D'source_font' VALUE=3D'Verdana=
, Arial,Helvetica, sans-serif'>")
  document.writeln("<INPUT TYPE=3D'hidden' NAME=3D'access_font' VALUE=3D'=
Verdana, Arial,Helvetica, sans-serif'><INPUT TYPE=3D'hidden' NAME=3D'head=
line_font_size' VALUE=3D'-2'>")
  document.writeln("<INPUT TYPE=3D'hidden' NAME=3D'headline_font' VALUE=3D=
'Verdana, Arial,Helvetica, sans-serif'><INPUT TYPE=3D'hidden' NAME=3D'hea=
ding_bold' VALUE=3D'Yes'>")
  document.writeln("<INPUT TYPE=3D'hidden' NAME=3D'item_spacing' VALUE=3D=
'5'><INPUT TYPE=3D'hidden' NAME=3D'wizard_brand' VALUE=3D'hitbox'>")
  document.writeln("<INPUT TYPE=3D'hidden' NAME=3D'heading_bgcolor' VALUE=
=3D'ffffff'><INPUT TYPE=3D'hidden' NAME=3D'cluster_cellpadding' VALUE=3D'=
1'>")
  document.writeln("<INPUT TYPE=3D'hidden' NAME=3D'heading_fgcolor' VALUE=
=3D'800080'><INPUT TYPE=3D'hidden' NAME=3D'source_fgcolor' VALUE=3D'00800=
0'>")
  document.writeln("<INPUT TYPE=3D'hidden' NAME=3D'cluster_border' VALUE=3D=
'0'><INPUT TYPE=3D'hidden' NAME=3D'cluster_layout' VALUE=3D'<br>'>")
=20
  document.writeln("</FORM>")
 =20
  // End of clone button code //
  document.writeln("</TABLE></CENTER></TD></TR></TABLE></CENTER>");
=20
  // ********************************************************************=
****************
  // This code is subject to the copyright and warranty restrictions deta=
iled at=20
  // http://w.moreover.com/wizard_copyright.html
  // Copyright 1999 Moreover.com Inc. All rights reserved.
  // ********************************************************************=
*****************
  }=20
  </SCRIPT>
              <a href=3D'http://www.moreover.com'><img src=3D'http://i.mo=
reover.com/images/moreover_link.gif' border=3D0 height=3D1 width=3D1></a>=
=20
              <MOREOVER_CLONE_JAVASCRIPT_END_DO_NOT_DELETE>=20
              <!-- HTML Markup endspan -->
            </p>
            <p></p>
							</td>
						</tr>
					</table>
				</td>
			</tr>
		</table>
		<p></p>
	</body>

</html>

--------------070009000406050904000701--



.

From - Thu Jan 30 01:07:47 2003
X-UIDL: 322736344
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 10000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AEE866A70114; Thu, 30 Jan 2003 00:58:00 -0500
Received: from intrex.net [209.42.230.61] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AEBE506D01FC; Thu, 30 Jan 2003 00:57:18 -0500
Message-ID: <3E38EB54.9080807@intrex.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 01:07:32 -0800
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
Organization: http://market-farming.com  --  Venaura Farm
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To:  lfl@intrex.net
Subject: Sustainable Community Development/Effective Microorganisms (EM) Links
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
 boundary="------------050902090609090804080007"
X-Declude-Sender: lfl@intrex.net [209.42.230.61]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. Whitelisted
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
X-UIDL: 322736344
Status: U

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------050902090609090804080007
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


<http://www.emtrading.com/links.html>

-- 
L.F.London
lfl@intrex.net
http://market-farming.com
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/pcwiki/index.php/london

--------------050902090609090804080007
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii;
 name="www.emtrading.com/links.html"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline;
 filename="www.emtrading.com/links.html"
Content-Base: "http://www.emtrading.com/links.html"
Content-Location: "http://www.emtrading.com/links.html"

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd"><html>

	<head>
		<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;charset=iso-8859-1">
		<meta name="generator" content="Adobe GoLive 5">
		<title>Sustainable Community Development/Effective Microorganisms (EM) Links</title>
		<meta name="author" content="Matthew Wood, Rae Petersen">
		<meta name="description" content="Links to EM sites and articles.">
		<meta name="keywords" content="EM, effective microorganisms, environmental, community, sustainable, natural, organic, agricultural, composting, livestock management, bioremediation, health, waste treatment">
		<csscriptdict import>
			<script language="JavaScript1.2" src="GeneratedItems/CSScriptLib.js"></script>
		</csscriptdict>
		<csactiondict>
			<script><!--
CSInit[CSInit.length] = new Array(CSNSFix);

// --></script>
		</csactiondict>
		<csactions>
			<csaction name="B71D3F872" class="Netscape CSS Fix" type="onload"></csaction>
		</csactions>
		<csactionitem name="B71D3F872"></csactionitem>
		<link rel="stylesheet" href="em.css" media="screen">
		
	</head>

	<body bgcolor="white" text="#003300" link="#003300" alink="#996633" vlink="#336666" onload="CSScriptInit();">
		<center>
			<table border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width="579">
				<tr height="29">
					<td height="29" colspan="3" align="center" valign="top">
						<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="573" align="left">
							<tr>
								<td width="109" align="center" valign="middle"><a href="index.html"><img height="86" width="87" src="images/logo/scdlogogb.jpg" alt="sustainable community development logo" border="0"></a></td>
								<td><img height="51" width="464" src="images/titles/scdem5.gif" border="0" alt="effective microorganisms at emtrading.com"><img src="images/titles/emlinksm.jpg" width="88" height="18" border="0" alt="links" align="right"></td>
							</tr>
						</table>
					</td>
				</tr>
				<tr height="4">
					<td width="115" rowspan="4" align="right" valign="top">
						<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="64">
							<tr>
								<td align="center"><br>
								</td>
							</tr>
							<tr>
								<td align="center">
									<form name="search" action="http://search.atomz.com/search/" method="get">
										<div align="center">
											<!-- Atomz.com Search HTML for SCD/EM --><input type="text" name="sp-q" size="16"><br>
											<input type="hidden" name="sp-a" value="000501f7-sp00000002"><input type="image" src="images/emnbimages/emnbsearchg.gif" alt="search" border="0" name="search2"></div>
									</form>
								</td>
							</tr>
							<tr>
								<td><csobj w="111" h="286" t="Component" csref="../emsite.data/Components/emnb.html" occur="21">
										<div align="left">
											<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
												<tr>
													<td><csobj w="109" h="26" t="Button" ht="images/emnbimages/emnbhomeg.gif" cl="images/emnbimages/emnbhomeb.gif"><a href="index.html" onmouseover="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'Cmp004818F221home',1)" onmouseout="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'Cmp004818F221home',0)" onclick="CSIShow(/*CMP*/'Cmp004818F221home',2);return CSButtonReturn()"><img src="images/emnbimages/emnbhomeb.gif" width="109" height="26" name="Cmp004818F221home" border="0"></a></csobj></td>
												</tr>
												<tr>
													<td align="left"><csobj w="109" h="26" t="Button" ht="images/emnbimages/emnbstoreg.gif" cl="images/emnbimages/emnbstoreb.gif"><a href="store/index.html" onmouseover="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'Cmp004818F221store',1)" onmouseout="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'Cmp004818F221store',0)" onclick="CSIShow(/*CMP*/'Cmp004818F221store',2);return CSButtonReturn()"><img src="images/emnbimages/emnbstoreb.gif" width="109" height="26" name="Cmp004818F221store" border="0"></a></csobj></td>
												</tr>
												<tr>
													<td><csobj w="109" h="26" t="Button" ht="images/emnbimages/emnbresearchg.gif" cl="images/emnbimages/emnbresearchb.gif"><a href="em/research.html" onmouseover="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'Cmp004818F221research',1)" onmouseout="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'Cmp004818F221research',0)" onclick="CSIShow(/*CMP*/'Cmp004818F221research',2);return CSButtonReturn()"><img src="images/emnbimages/emnbresearchb.gif" width="109" height="26" name="Cmp004818F221research" border="0"></a></csobj></td>
												</tr>
												<tr>
													<td><csobj w="109" h="26" t="Button" ht="images/emnbimages/emnbnewsg.gif" cl="images/emnbimages/emnbnewsb.gif"><a href="em/dnews.html" onmouseover="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'Cmp004818F221emnews',1)" onmouseout="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'Cmp004818F221emnews',0)" onclick="CSIShow(/*CMP*/'Cmp004818F221emnews',2);return CSButtonReturn()"><img src="images/emnbimages/emnbnewsb.gif" width="109" height="26" name="Cmp004818F221emnews" border="0"></a></csobj></td>
												</tr>
												<tr>
													<td><csobj w="109" h="26" t="Button" ht="images/emnbimages/emnbdemog.gif" cl="images/emnbimages/emnbdemob.gif"><a href="demo/index.html" onmouseover="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'Cmp004818F221demo',1)" onmouseout="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'Cmp004818F221demo',0)" onclick="CSIShow(/*CMP*/'Cmp004818F221demo',2);return CSButtonReturn()"><img src="images/emnbimages/emnbdemob.gif" width="109" height="26" name="Cmp004818F221demo" border="0"></a></csobj></td>
												</tr>
												<tr>
													<td><csobj w="109" h="26" t="Button" ht="images/emnbimages/emnbscdg.gif" cl="images/emnbimages/emnbscdb.gif"><a href="scd/index.html" onmouseover="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'Cmp004818F221scd',1)" onmouseout="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'Cmp004818F221scd',0)" onclick="CSIShow(/*CMP*/'Cmp004818F221scd',2);return CSButtonReturn()"><img src="images/emnbimages/emnbscdb.gif" width="109" height="26" name="Cmp004818F221scd" border="0"></a></csobj></td>
												</tr>
												<tr>
													<td><csobj w="109" h="26" t="Button" ht="images/emnbimages/emnbeventsg.gif" cl="images/emnbimages/emnbeventsb.gif"><a href="events/index.html" onmouseover="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'Cmp004818F221events',1)" onmouseout="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'Cmp004818F221events',0)" onclick="CSIShow(/*CMP*/'Cmp004818F221events',2);return CSButtonReturn()"><img src="images/emnbimages/emnbeventsb.gif" width="109" height="26" name="Cmp004818F221events" border="0"></a></csobj></td>
												</tr>
												<tr>
													<td><csobj w="109" h="26" t="Button" ht="images/emnbimages/emnbfaqg.gif" cl="images/emnbimages/emnbfaqb.gif"><a href="faq.html" onmouseover="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'Cmp004818F221faq',1)" onmouseout="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'Cmp004818F221faq',0)" onclick="CSIShow(/*CMP*/'Cmp004818F221faq',2);return CSButtonReturn()"><img src="images/emnbimages/emnbfaqb.gif" width="109" height="26" name="Cmp004818F221faq" border="0"></a></csobj></td>
												</tr>
												<tr>
													<td><csobj w="109" h="26" t="Button" ht="images/emnbimages/emnblinksg.gif" cl="images/emnbimages/emnblinksb.gif"><a href="links.html" onmouseover="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'Cmp004818F221links',1)" onmouseout="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'Cmp004818F221links',0)" onclick="CSIShow(/*CMP*/'Cmp004818F221links',2);return CSButtonReturn()"><img src="images/emnbimages/emnblinksb.gif" width="109" height="26" name="Cmp004818F221links" border="0"></a></csobj></td>
												</tr>
												<tr>
													<td><csobj w="109" h="26" t="Button" ht="images/emnbimages/emnbcontactg.gif" cl="images/emnbimages/emnbcontactb.gif"><a href="contact.html" onmouseover="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'Cmp004818F221contact',1)" onmouseout="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'Cmp004818F221contact',0)" onclick="CSIShow(/*CMP*/'Cmp004818F221contact',2);return CSButtonReturn()"><img src="images/emnbimages/emnbcontactb.gif" width="109" height="26" name="Cmp004818F221contact" border="0"></a></csobj></td>
												</tr>
												<tr>
													<td><csobj w="109" h="26" t="Button" ht="images/emnbimages/emnbguestg.gif" cl="images/emnbimages/emnbguestb.gif"><a href="guestbook.html" onmouseover="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'Cmp004818F221button',1)" onmouseout="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'Cmp004818F221button',0)" onclick="CSIShow(/*CMP*/'Cmp004818F221button',2);return CSButtonReturn()"><img src="images/emnbimages/emnbguestb.gif" width="109" height="26" name="Cmp004818F221button" border="0"></a></csobj></td>
												</tr>
											</table>
										</div>
									</csobj></td>
							</tr>
						</table>
					</td>
					<td align="center" valign="top" width="5" rowspan="4"></td>
					<td valign="top" align="center" width="75%" rowspan="4">
						<table border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="435">
							<tr>
								<td align="center" valign="middle" width="429">
									<hr>
								</td>
							</tr>
							<tr>
								<td width="429">
									<table border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width="428">
										<tr>
											<td width="420" align="left">
												<p class="store1"><a name="antioxidantlinks"></a>Antioxidant Information-</p>
												<p class="store1">Columbia University: <a href="http://www.goaskalice.columbia.edu/0830.html" target="_blank">What is the role of antioxidants in health?</a></p>
												<p class="store1">Administration on Aging: <a href="http://www.aoa.dhhs.gov/aoa/pages/agepages/lifextsn.html" target="_blank">National Institute on Ageing Page: Life Extention</a> </p>
												<p class="store1">American College of Chest Physcicans: <a href="http://www.chestnet.org/education/pccu/vol13/lesson18.html" target="_blank">Antioxidants and the Lungs</a> </p>
												<p class="store1">Cornell University - Food and Nutrition: <a href="http://www.cce.cornell.edu/programs/food/staff/expfiles/topics/swanson/antioxidantsoverview.html" target="_blank">Antioxidants Nutrients</a></p>
											</td>
										</tr>
										<tr>
											<td width="420" align="left">
												<hr>
												<p class="store"><a href="http://www.emro.jp/english/index.html" target="_blank"><b>EM Research Organization, Inc., (EMRO)</b></a> &#147;The revolutionizing of life through EM (Effective Microorganisms)&#148;- The philosophy proposed by Dr. Teruo Higa.</p>
											</td>
										</tr>
										<tr>
											<td width="420" align="left">
												<hr>
												<p class="store"><b>EM TECHNOLOGIES, INC., Phoenix, AZ, USA,</b><a href="http://www.emtech.org/" target="_blank"> </a>Effective Microorganisms for a Sustainable Agriculture and Environment (temporarily offlne)</p>
											</td>
										</tr>
										<tr>
											<td width="420" align="left">
												<hr>
												<p class="store"><b>
												
												International Federation of Organic Agriculture Movements (iFoam)
<br>
													</b>11th IFOAM Scientific Conference- 11-15 August 1996,<br>
													
												Copenhagen, Denmark<br>
													
												iFoam '96 Book of Abstracts </p>
												<ul>
													<li class="store"><a href="http://www.ecoweb.dk/english/ifoam/conf96/abs053.htm" target="_blank">#53,</a> Tick (Boophilus microplus) Control with Effective Microorganisms in Cattle, Brazil	
												</ul>
												<ul>
													<li class="store"><a href="http://www.ecoweb.dk/english/ifoam/conf96/abs069.htm" target="_blank">#69,</a> Effective Microorganisms in Vegetable Production, NZ	
												</ul>
												<ul>
													<li class="store"><a href="http://www.ecoweb.dk/english/ifoam/conf96/abs070.htm" target="_blank">#70,</a> Systems with and without Effective Microorganisms

												</ul>
												<ul>
													<li class="store"><a href="http://www.ecoweb.dk/english/ifoam/conf96/abs071.htm" target="_blank">#71,</a> EM, Soil Structure and Plant Diseases, Brazil	
												</ul>
												<ul>
													<li class="store"><a href="http://www.ecoweb.dk/english/ifoam/conf96/abs072.htm" target="_blank">#72,</a> Effective microorganisms technology, Bali Island	
												</ul>
												<ul>
													<li class="store"><a href="http://www.ecoweb.dk/english/ifoam/conf96/abs073.htm" target="_blank">#73,</a> Effective Microorganisms and Ecological Agriculture, China	
												</ul>
												<ul>
													<li class="store"><a href="http://www.ecoweb.dk/english/ifoam/conf96/abs143.htm" target="_blank">#143,</a> Plant energy field related to health and EM treatment, Brazil	
												</ul>
												<ul>
													<li class="store"><a href="http://www.ecoweb.dk/english/ifoam/conf96/abs277.htm" target="_blank">#277,</a> Field Trials on the Performance of Bokashi Organic Fertilizer with EM, Philippines	
												</ul>
												<ul>
													<li class="store"><a href="http://www.ecoweb.dk/english/ifoam/conf96/abs278.htm" target="_blank">#278,</a> Organic Citrus Production by Using EM Technologies in Brazil	
												</ul>
												<ul>
													<li class="store"><a href="http://www.ecoweb.dk/english/ifoam/conf96/abs279.htm" target="_blank">#279,</a> Rice Farming To Sustain Rice Production in Malaysia	
												</ul>
												<ul>
													<li class="store"><a href="http://www.ecoweb.dk/english/ifoam/conf96/abs280.htm" target="_blank">#280, </a>Substitution of Chemical Fertilizers with EM-Technology, Pakistan

												</ul>
												<ul>
													<li class="store"><a href="http://www.ecoweb.dk/english/ifoam/conf96/abs281.htm" target="_blank">#281,</a> Control of Antracnose in Pepper with EM, Brazil

												</ul>
												<ul>
													<li class="store"><a href="http://www.ecoweb.dk/english/ifoam/conf96/abs314.htm" target="_blank">#314,</a> Integrated System of Kyusei Nature Farming in Brazil

												</ul>
												<ul>
													<li class="store"><a href="http://www.ecoweb.dk/english/ifoam/conf96/abs350.htm" target="_blank">#350,</a> Asia Pacific Natural Agricultural Network	
												</ul>
											</td>
										</tr>
										<tr>
											<td width="420" align="left">
												<div class=Section1>
													<hr>
													<p class="store"><b>Asia Pacific Natural Agricultural Network (APNAN)</b> -</p>
													<ul>
														<li class="store"><a href="http://www.agriton.nl/apnanman.html" target="_blank">APNAN User&#146;s Manual EM Nature Farming Guide</a>
													</ul>
												</div>
											</td>
										</tr>
										<tr>
											<td width="420" align="left">
												<div class=Section1>
													<hr>
													<p class="store"><b>International Nature Farming Research Center</b></p>
													<ul>
														<li class="store"><b><a href="http://www.agriton.nl/higa.html" target="_blank">Beneficial &amp; Effective Microorganisms for a Sustainable Agriculture and Environment </a></b>
													</ul>
												</div>
											</td>
										</tr>
										<tr>
											<td width="420" align="left">
												<hr>
												<p class="store"><b>The Solutions Site </b></p>
												<ul>
													<li class="store">Case Study- <a href="http://www.solutions-site.org/cat11_sol85.htm" target="_blank">Alternative Agriculture in Thailand and Japan</a>
												</ul>
											</td>
										</tr>
										<tr>
											<td width="420" align="left">
												<hr>
												<p class="store"><b>
												FVSU College of Agriculture, Home Economics &amp; Allied Programs Fort Valley, GA, USA
</b></p>
												<ul>
													<li class="store"><a href="http://www.aginfo.fvsu.edu/publicat/commoditysheets/fvsu007.htm" target="_blank">Specialty Soybeans</a>
												</ul>
											</td>
										</tr>
										<tr>
											<td width="420" align="left">
												<hr>
												<p class="store"><b>
												United Nations University/Institute of Advanced Studies
</b></p>
												<ul>
													<li class="store">Internet Conference on Integrated Bio-Systems<br>
															Effective Microorganisms, China<br>
														<a href="http://www.ias.unu.edu/proceedings/icibs/wang/archive/27.htm" target="_blank">posting #27, </a><a href="http://www.ias.unu.edu/proceedings/icibs/wang/archive/28.htm" target="_blank">posting #28, </a><a href="http://www.ias.unu.edu/proceedings/icibs/wang/archive/36.htm" target="_blank">posting #36, </a><a href="http://www.ias.unu.edu/proceedings/icibs/wang/archive/73.htm" target="_blank">posting #73, </a><a href="http://www.ias.unu.edu/proceedings/icibs/wang/archive/74.htm" target="_blank">posting #74, </a><a href="http://www.ias.unu.edu/proceedings/icibs/wang/archive/76.htm" target="_blank">posting #76, </a><a href="http://www.ias.unu.edu/proceedings/icibs/wang/archive/77.htm" target="_blank">posting #77, </a><a href="http://www.ias..unu.edu/proceedings/icibs/et-w1/311.htm" target="_blank">posting #311</a>
												</ul>
											</td>
										</tr>
										<tr>
											<td width="420" align="left">
												<hr>
												<p class="store"><b>
												USDA National Agricultural Library/Technology Transfer Information Center/Agriculture Research Services
</b></p>
												<ul>
													<li class="store"><a href="http://www.nal.usda.gov/ttic/tektran/data/000011/30/0000113043.html" target="_blank">&#147;Control of Sclerotinia Homoeocarpa in Turfgrass Using Effective Microorganisms&#148;</a>
												</ul>
											</td>
										</tr>
										<tr>
											<td width="420" align="left">
												<hr>
												<p class="store"><b>
												Cambodia
</b></p>
												<ul>
													<li class="store"><a href="http://toda-cambodia.org/projects.htm" target="_blank">Training and Disabled Association (TODA)</a> Developing an Eco-Village for 300 disabled families based on the Integrated Bio-Systems Concept. Sustainability, environmentally friendly, and efficient use of available local materials.
												</ul>
											</td>
										</tr>
										<tr>
											<td width="420" align="left">
												<hr>
												<p class="store"><b>
												Denmark
</b></p>
												<ul>
													<li class="store"><a href="http://www.agsci.kvl.dk/~anb/EM-ART.htm" target="_blank">&#147;Effect of seed treatments with EM (Effective Microorganisms) in control of common bunt (Tilletia tritici) in wheat &#148;.</a>
												</ul>
												<ul>
													<li class="store"><a href="http://www.agsci.kvl.dk/~anb/biocontrol.htm" target="_blank">&#147;Biological control of common bunt (Tilletia tritici) in organic agriculture&#148;.</a>
												</ul>
											</td>
										</tr>
										<tr>
											<td width="420" align="left">
												<hr>
												<p class="store"><b>
												posting to egroups.com
</b></p>
												<ul>
													<li class="store"><a href="http://www.egroups.com/message/kasetthai/43" target="_blank">&#147;EM - Effective Microorganisms acts as Fertilizers, Hormones and Pesticides&#148;</a>
												</ul>
											</td>
										</tr>
										<tr>
											<td width="420" align="left">
												<hr>
												<p class="store"><b>
												International Centre for Integrated Mountain Development (ICIMOD), Technologies for Land and Soil Management </b></p>
												<ul>
													<li class="store"><a href="http://www.icimod.org.sg/sus_options/bp_soil.htm#3" target="_blank">&#147;Effective Microorganisms (EM) Technology&#148;</a>
												</ul>
												<ul>
													<li class="store"><a href="http://www.icimod.org.sg/publications/newsletter/News28/news28c.htm" target="_blank">ICIMOD Newsletter #28</a>
												</ul>
											</td>
										</tr>
										<tr>
											<td width="420" align="left">
												<hr>
												<p class="store"><b>
												Egypt
</b></p>
												<ul>
													<li class="store">Institute of Cultural Affairs (ICA)- <a href="http://www.icajapan.gol.com/virtualtoure/95egypt.html" target="_blank">Desert Reclamation Project</a>
												</ul>
											</td>
										</tr>
										<tr>
											<td width="420" align="left">
												<hr>
												<p class="store"><b>
												New Zealand
</b></p>
												<ul>
													<li class="store"><a href="http://bubl.ac.uk/journals/agr/jsusagr/v14n0203.htm#5influence" target="_blank">Influence of &#147;Effective Microorganisms&#148; (EM) on Vegetable Production and Carbon Mineralization - A Preliminary Investigation Abstract </a>
												</ul>
											</td>
										</tr>
										<tr>
											<td width="420" align="left">
												<hr>
												<p class="store"><b>
												Pakistan- Journal of Biological Sciences </b></p>
												<ul>
													<li class="store"><a href="http://www.pjbs.org/pjbsnew/journal/vol2/2/336-339.HTM" target="_blank">&#147;Tolerance to Allelopathy by Effective Microorganisms (EM) in Chickpea (Cicer arietinum L.)&#148;</a>
												</ul>
											</td>
										</tr>
										<tr>
											<td width="420" align="left">
												<hr>
												<p class="store"><b>USA- Arizona Recycling Review (ASU)	</b></p>
												<ul>
													<li class="store"><a href="http://www.asu.edu/caed/publications/recyclereview/rr64bokashi.html" target="_blank">&#147;Schools in Tucson Compost Japanese Style&#148;</a>
													<li class="store"><a href="http://www.asu.edu/caed/publications/recyclereview/rr64ARC.html" target="_blank">&#147;Conference Discusses Challenges to Composting in the Southwest&#148;</a>
													<li class="store"><a href="http://www.asu.edu/caed/publications/recyclereview/rr64ADEQ.html" target="_blank">&#147;98-99 Waste Reduction Initiative Through Education (WRITE)</a>
												</ul>
											</td>
										</tr>
										<tr>
											<td width="420" align="left">
												<hr>
												<p class="store"><b>
												USA- Arkansas- Appropriate Technology Transfer for Rural Areas (ATTRA) Fayetteville<br>
													</b></p>
												<ul>
													<li class="store"><a href="http://ncatark.uark.edu/~steved/Nature-Farm-EM.html" target="_blank">&#147;Nature Farming and Effective Microorganisms&#148;, Steve Diver</a>
												</ul>
												<ul>
													<li class="store"><a href="http://www.attra.org/" target="_blank">ATTRA Home Page</a>
												</ul>
											</td>
										</tr>
										<tr>
											<td width="420" align="left"><span class="store2">USA- <a href="http://www.emhawaii.ws/" target="_blank">EM Hawaii</a></span></td>
										</tr>
										<tr>
											<td width="420" align="left">
												<hr>
												<p class="store"><b>
												Office of Naval Research
</b></p>
												<ul>
													<li class="store"><a href="http://www.onr.navy.mil/onrasia/systems/1994/bio/090794s.txt" target="_blank">&#147;Creating Material Resources from Wastes Using Microorganisms&#148;</a>
												</ul>
											</td>
										</tr>
										<tr>
											<td width="420" align="left">
												<hr>
												<p class="store"><b>
												Seminar on the Application of Effective Microorganisms (EM) Techniques in Organic Farming, RAC, May 2001
</b></p>
												<ul>
													<li class="store"><a href="http://www.royagcol.ac.uk/research/conferences/higa.htm" target="_blank">Definition of EM principles</a> and the potential application to agricultural production systems. Dr Terou Higa

												</ul>
												<ul>
													<li class="store"><a href="http://www.royagcol.ac.uk/research/conferences/sangakkara.htm" target="_blank">Technology of Effective Microorganisms</a>- Case Studies of Application. Dr. U.R.Sangakkara

												</ul>
												<ul>
													<li class="store"><a href="http://www.royagcol.ac.uk/research/conferences/tabo.htm" target="_blank">Bananas with EM and Compatible Technologies,</a> and Economic Consequencies. Dr. Panfilo Tabora, Jr., Masaki Shintani and Dr. Fritz Elang

												</ul>
												<ul>
													<li class="store"><a href="http://www.royagcol.ac.uk/research/conferences/EM.ppt" target="_blank">Practical Workshop on Applications of EM Technologies.</a> (powerpoint presentation) Masaki Shintani

												</ul>
											</td>
										</tr>
										<tr>
											<td width="420" align="left">
												<hr>
												<ul>
													<li class="store"><a href="http://www.porkenvironment.org/Programs/OSI/CompleteManual.pdf" target="_blank">Odor Solutions Initiative (OSI) Manual</a> (PDF file)- provides details on EMs potential to control pit odor; pgs vi (6) and 71. From <a href="http://www.porkboard.org" target="_blank">National Pork Board</a> &amp; Purdue University.
																										
												</ul>
											</td>
										</tr>
										<tr>
											<td width="420" align="left">
												<hr>
												<p class="store"><b>
												Spiritwheel Web Site
</b></p>
												<ul>
													<li class="store"><a href="http://www.spiritwheel.com/thnfarm.htm" target="_blank">Kyusei Nature Farming/Nature Farming-Dr. Higa</a>
												</ul>
											</td>
										</tr>
										<tr>
											<td width="420" align="left">
												<hr>
												<p class="store"><a href="em/dnews.html"><b>Digital News Articles Index on EMtrading.com</b></a></p>
											</td>
										</tr>
										<tr>
											<td width="420" align="left">
												<hr>
												<p class="store"><a href="http://www.sare.org/" target="_blank"><b>Sustainable Agriculture Network</b></a></p>
											</td>
										</tr>
										<tr>
											<td width="420" align="left">
												<hr>
												<p class="store"><a href="#" onclick="CSAction(new Array(/*CMP*/'B71831D787'));return CSClickReturn();" csclick="B71831D787"><b> </b></a></p>
											</td>
										</tr>
									</table>
								</td>
							</tr>
							<tr>
								<td width="429">
									<hr>
								</td>
							</tr>
						</table>
					</td>
				</tr>
				<tr height="15"></tr>
				<tr height="45"></tr>
				<tr></tr>
				<tr>
					<td width="115" valign="middle" align="center">
						<p class="footer">Last Updated<br>
							<csobj w="31" h="10" t="DateTime" format="ShortDate" region="0">7/25/02</csobj></p>
					</td>
					<td width="5"></td>
					<td align="center" width="75%">
						<p class="footer">&copy;2000-2002 Sustainable Community Development, LLC<br>PO Box 14278, Shawnee Mission, KS 66285-4278<br>
							phone 913-541-9299, fax 913-541-0380<br>
						</p>
						<p class="footer"><a href="faq.html#disclaimer">disclaimer</a> | <a href="faq.html#privacy">privacy statement</a> | <a href="faq.html#security">security</a></p>
					</td>
				</tr>
			</table>
			 </center>
	</body>

</html>
--------------050902090609090804080007--



.

From - Thu Jan 30 01:14:21 2003
X-UIDL: 322736346
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 10000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A0784D660138; Thu, 30 Jan 2003 01:04:40 -0500
Received: from intrex.net [209.42.230.61] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A04E2CFC029A; Thu, 30 Jan 2003 01:03:58 -0500
Message-ID: <3E38ECE4.1010108@intrex.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 01:14:12 -0800
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
Organization: http://market-farming.com  --  Venaura Farm
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To:  lfl@intrex.net
Subject: Effective Microorganisms (EM) from Sustainable Community Development,
 LLC.
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
 boundary="------------040305070909080007000706"
X-Declude-Sender: lfl@intrex.net [209.42.230.61]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. Whitelisted
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
X-UIDL: 322736346
Status: U

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------040305070909080007000706
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


<http://www.emtrading.com/>

-- 
L.F.London
lfl@intrex.net
http://market-farming.com
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/pcwiki/index.php/london

--------------040305070909080007000706
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii;
 name="www.emtrading.com/"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline;
 filename="www.emtrading.com/"
Content-Base: "http://www.emtrading.com/"
Content-Location: "http://www.emtrading.com/"

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd"><html>

	<head>
		<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;charset=iso-8859-1">
		<meta name="generator" content="Adobe GoLive 6">
		<title>Effective Microorganisms (EM) from Sustainable Community Development, LLC.</title>
		<meta name="author" content="Matt Wood, Rae Petersen">
		<meta name="description" content="Beneficial and Effective Microorganisms (EM), assist in creating sustainable practices for agriculture, animal husbandry, nature farming, environmental stewardship, construction, human health and hygiene, industrial, community activities and more.">
		<meta name="keywords" content="EM, effective microorganisms, beneficial microorganisms, EM technology, environmental, community, sustainable, natural, organic, agricultural, composting, livestock management, bioremediation, health, waste treatment">
		<csscriptdict import>
			<script language="JavaScript1.2" src="GeneratedItems/CSScriptLib.js"></script>
		</csscriptdict>
		<csactiondict>
			<script><!--
CSInit[CSInit.length] = new Array(CSILoad,/*CMP*/'button',/*URL*/'images/bokashibutton.jpg',/*URL*/'images/bokashibutton2.jpg',/*URL*/'images/bokashibutton.jpg','');
CSAct[/*CMP*/ 'B955CC4C1'] = new Array(CSOpenWindow,/*URL*/ 'sides/emsides1.html#whatisem','',220,0,true,true,false,false,false,false,false);

// --></script>
		</csactiondict>
		<csactions>
			<csaction name="B955CC4C1" class="Open Window" type="onevent" val0="sides/emsides1.html#whatisem" val1="" val2="220" val3="0" val4="true" val5="true" val6="false" val7="false" val8="false" val9="false" val10="false" urlparams="1"></csaction>
		</csactions>
		<link rel="stylesheet" href="em.css" media="screen">
		<csimport user="../emsite.data/Components/emnb.html" occur="74">
			<csactiondict>
				<script><!--
CSInit[CSInit.length] = new Array(CSILoad,/*CMP*/'home',/*URL*/'images/emnbimages/emnbhomeb.gif',/*URL*/'images/emnbimages/emnbhomeg.gif',/*URL*/'images/emnbimages/emnbhomeb.gif','');
CSInit[CSInit.length] = new Array(CSILoad,/*CMP*/'store',/*URL*/'images/emnbimages/emnbstoreb.gif',/*URL*/'images/emnbimages/emnbstoreg.gif',/*URL*/'images/emnbimages/emnbstoreb.gif','');
CSInit[CSInit.length] = new Array(CSILoad,/*CMP*/'research',/*URL*/'images/emnbimages/emnbresearchb.gif',/*URL*/'images/emnbimages/emnbresearchg.gif',/*URL*/'images/emnbimages/emnbresearchb.gif','');
CSInit[CSInit.length] = new Array(CSILoad,/*CMP*/'emnews',/*URL*/'images/emnbimages/emnbnewsb.gif',/*URL*/'images/emnbimages/emnbnewsg.gif',/*URL*/'images/emnbimages/emnbnewsb.gif','');
CSInit[CSInit.length] = new Array(CSILoad,/*CMP*/'demo',/*URL*/'images/emnbimages/emnbdemob.gif',/*URL*/'images/emnbimages/emnbdemog.gif',/*URL*/'images/emnbimages/emnbdemob.gif','');
CSInit[CSInit.length] = new Array(CSILoad,/*CMP*/'scd',/*URL*/'images/emnbimages/emnbscdb.gif',/*URL*/'images/emnbimages/emnbscdg.gif',/*URL*/'images/emnbimages/emnbscdb.gif','');
CSInit[CSInit.length] = new Array(CSILoad,/*CMP*/'events',/*URL*/'images/emnbimages/emnbeventsb.gif',/*URL*/'images/emnbimages/emnbeventsg.gif',/*URL*/'images/emnbimages/emnbeventsb.gif','');
CSInit[CSInit.length] = new Array(CSILoad,/*CMP*/'faq',/*URL*/'images/emnbimages/emnbfaqb.gif',/*URL*/'images/emnbimages/emnbfaqg.gif',/*URL*/'images/emnbimages/emnbfaqb.gif','');
CSInit[CSInit.length] = new Array(CSILoad,/*CMP*/'links',/*URL*/'images/emnbimages/emnblinksb.gif',/*URL*/'images/emnbimages/emnblinksg.gif',/*URL*/'images/emnbimages/emnblinksb.gif','');
CSInit[CSInit.length] = new Array(CSILoad,/*CMP*/'contact',/*URL*/'images/emnbimages/emnbcontactb.gif',/*URL*/'images/emnbimages/emnbcontactg.gif',/*URL*/'images/emnbimages/emnbcontactb.gif','');
CSInit[CSInit.length] = new Array(CSILoad,/*CMP*/'Cmp004BDD7D74button',/*URL*/'images/emnbimages/emnbguestb.gif',/*URL*/'images/emnbimages/emnbguestg.gif',/*URL*/'images/emnbimages/emnbguestb.gif','');

// --></script>
			</csactiondict>
		</csimport>
		<csimport user="../emsite.data/Components/footer.html" occur="29">
			<link href="em.css" rel="stylesheet" media="screen">
		</csimport>
	</head>

	<body style="margin: 0" bgcolor="white" text="#003300" onload="CSScriptInit();" vlink="#336666" link="#8b4513">
		<center>
			<table border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width="604">
				<tr height="29">
					<td height="29" align="center" valign="top" colspan="3">
						<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="585">
							<tr>
								<td width="109" align="center" valign="middle"><img alt="sustainable community development logo" height="86" width="87" src="images/logo/scdlogogb.jpg"></td>
								<td>
									<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="464">
										<tr>
											<td><img height="51" width="464" src="images/titles/scdem5.gif" border="0" alt="effective microorganisms at emtrading.com"></td>
										</tr>
										<tr>
											<td>
												<table border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%">
													<tr>
														<td width="75%" align="center" valign="middle">
															<hr width="98%" align="right">
														</td>
														<td align="left"><img src="images/titles/emwelsm.jpg" width="118" height="18" border="0" alt="welcome"></td>
													</tr>
												</table>
											</td>
										</tr>
									</table>
								</td>
							</tr>
						</table>
					</td>
				</tr>
				<tr>
					<td width="124" rowspan="4" align="left" valign="top">
						<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="64">
							<tr>
								<td>
									<form name="search" action="http://search.atomz.com/search/" method="get">
										<div align="center">
											<!-- Atomz.com Search HTML for SCD/EM --><input type="text" name="sp-q" size="16"><input type="hidden" name="sp-a" value="000501f7-sp00000002"><br>
											<input type="image" src="images/emnbimages/emnbsearchg.gif" alt="search" border="0" name="search2"></div>
									</form>
									<csobj w="111" h="286" t="Component" csref="../emsite.data/Components/emnb.html" occur="74">
										<div align="left">
											<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
												<tr>
													<td><csobj w="109" h="26" t="Button" ht="images/emnbimages/emnbhomeg.gif" cl="images/emnbimages/emnbhomeb.gif"><a href="index.html" onmouseover="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'home',1)" onmouseout="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'home',0)" onclick="CSIShow(/*CMP*/'home',2);return CSButtonReturn()"><img src="images/emnbimages/emnbhomeb.gif" width="109" height="26" name="home" border="0"></a></csobj></td>
												</tr>
												<tr>
													<td align="left"><csobj w="109" h="26" t="Button" ht="images/emnbimages/emnbstoreg.gif" cl="images/emnbimages/emnbstoreb.gif"><a href="store/index.html" onmouseover="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'store',1)" onmouseout="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'store',0)" onclick="CSIShow(/*CMP*/'store',2);return CSButtonReturn()"><img src="images/emnbimages/emnbstoreb.gif" width="109" height="26" name="store" border="0"></a></csobj></td>
												</tr>
												<tr>
													<td><csobj w="109" h="26" t="Button" ht="images/emnbimages/emnbresearchg.gif" cl="images/emnbimages/emnbresearchb.gif"><a href="em/research.html" onmouseover="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'research',1)" onmouseout="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'research',0)" onclick="CSIShow(/*CMP*/'research',2);return CSButtonReturn()"><img src="images/emnbimages/emnbresearchb.gif" width="109" height="26" name="research" border="0"></a></csobj></td>
												</tr>
												<tr>
													<td><csobj w="109" h="26" t="Button" ht="images/emnbimages/emnbnewsg.gif" cl="images/emnbimages/emnbnewsb.gif"><a href="em/dnews.html" onmouseover="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'emnews',1)" onmouseout="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'emnews',0)" onclick="CSIShow(/*CMP*/'emnews',2);return CSButtonReturn()"><img src="images/emnbimages/emnbnewsb.gif" width="109" height="26" name="emnews" border="0"></a></csobj></td>
												</tr>
												<tr>
													<td><csobj w="109" h="26" t="Button" ht="images/emnbimages/emnbdemog.gif" cl="images/emnbimages/emnbdemob.gif"><a href="demo/index.html" onmouseover="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'demo',1)" onmouseout="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'demo',0)" onclick="CSIShow(/*CMP*/'demo',2);return CSButtonReturn()"><img src="images/emnbimages/emnbdemob.gif" width="109" height="26" name="demo" border="0"></a></csobj></td>
												</tr>
												<tr>
													<td><csobj w="109" h="26" t="Button" ht="images/emnbimages/emnbscdg.gif" cl="images/emnbimages/emnbscdb.gif"><a href="scd/index.html" onmouseover="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'scd2',1)" onmouseout="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'scd2',0)" onclick="CSIShow(/*CMP*/'scd2',2);return CSButtonReturn()"><img src="images/emnbimages/emnbscdb.gif" width="109" height="26" name="scd2" border="0"></a></csobj></td>
												</tr>
												<tr>
													<td><csobj w="109" h="26" t="Button" ht="images/emnbimages/emnbeventsg.gif" cl="images/emnbimages/emnbeventsb.gif"><a href="events/index.html" onmouseover="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'events',1)" onmouseout="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'events',0)" onclick="CSIShow(/*CMP*/'events',2);return CSButtonReturn()"><img src="images/emnbimages/emnbeventsb.gif" width="109" height="26" name="events" border="0"></a></csobj></td>
												</tr>
												<tr>
													<td><csobj w="109" h="26" t="Button" ht="images/emnbimages/emnbfaqg.gif" cl="images/emnbimages/emnbfaqb.gif"><a href="faq.html" onmouseover="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'faq',1)" onmouseout="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'faq',0)" onclick="CSIShow(/*CMP*/'faq',2);return CSButtonReturn()"><img src="images/emnbimages/emnbfaqb.gif" width="109" height="26" name="faq" border="0"></a></csobj></td>
												</tr>
												<tr>
													<td><csobj w="109" h="26" t="Button" ht="images/emnbimages/emnblinksg.gif" cl="images/emnbimages/emnblinksb.gif"><a href="links.html" onmouseover="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'links',1)" onmouseout="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'links',0)" onclick="CSIShow(/*CMP*/'links',2);return CSButtonReturn()"><img src="images/emnbimages/emnblinksb.gif" width="109" height="26" name="links" border="0"></a></csobj></td>
												</tr>
												<tr>
													<td><csobj w="109" h="26" t="Button" ht="images/emnbimages/emnbcontactg.gif" cl="images/emnbimages/emnbcontactb.gif"><a href="contact.html" onmouseover="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'contact',1)" onmouseout="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'contact',0)" onclick="CSIShow(/*CMP*/'contact',2);return CSButtonReturn()"><img src="images/emnbimages/emnbcontactb.gif" width="109" height="26" name="contact" border="0"></a></csobj></td>
												</tr>
												<tr>
													<td><csobj w="109" h="26" t="Button" ht="images/emnbimages/emnbguestg.gif" cl="images/emnbimages/emnbguestb.gif"><a href="guestbook.html" onmouseover="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'Cmp004BDD7D74button',1)" onmouseout="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'Cmp004BDD7D74button',0)" onclick="CSIShow(/*CMP*/'Cmp004BDD7D74button',2);return CSButtonReturn()"><img src="images/emnbimages/emnbguestb.gif" width="109" height="26" name="Cmp004BDD7D74button" border="0"></a></csobj></td>
												</tr>
											</table>
										</div>
									</csobj></td>
							</tr>
						</table>
						<form name="FormName" action="http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/EM-1" method="get" target="_blank">
							<div align="center">
								<table border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="115" bgcolor="#ffffcc">
									<tr>
										<td align="center">
											<p class="store">You are invited! <br>
												<b>Subscribe to EM-1<br>
												</b></p>
										</td>
									</tr>
									<tr>
										<td align="center"><input type=text name="user" value="enter email address" size=15></td>
									</tr>
									<tr>
										<td align="center"><input type=image border=0 alt="Click here to join EM-1" name="Click here to join EM-1" src="http://groups.yahoo.com/img/ui/join.gif" src="http://groups.yahoo.com/img/ui/join.gif"></td>
									</tr>
									<tr>
										<td align="center">
											<p><span class="footer">Powered by<br>
													<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/">groups.yahoo.com</a></span></p>
										</td>
									</tr>
								</table>
							</div>
						</form>
						<div align="center">
							<br>
						</div>
						<p></p>
					</td>
					<td align="center" valign="top" width="1" rowspan="4"></td>
					<td valign="top" width="78%" rowspan="4">
						<center>
							<table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="2">
								<tr>
									<td valign="top">
										<table border="0" cellpadding="10" cellspacing="0" width="168" align="right">
											<tr>
												<td align="center" bgcolor="#ffce9c">
													<h3><!--Effective Microorganisms EM Products-->Looking for <br>
														
														EM products? <br>
														
														Visit our <br>
														<a href="store/index.html"><b>Effective Microorganism Store!</b></a></h3>
												</td>
											</tr>
											<tr height="40">
												<td align="center" bgcolor="#ffce9c" height="40"><!--Effective Microorganism Sale-->
													<p class="store2"><a href="store/emxdrink.html"><img src="store/emprodnpic/emx001tn.jpg" alt="emx drink" width="108" height="163" border="0"></a></p>
													<p class="store2"><a href="store/emxdrink.html"><b>EM X Antioxidant<br>
																Dietary Supplement</b></a></p>
												</td>
											</tr>
											<tr>
												<td align="center" bgcolor="#ffce9c">
													<hr width="45%">
													<h2><a href="store/emsalt.html">EM Rejuvenating<br>
															Salt</a></h2>
												</td>
											</tr>
										</table>
										<!--Beneficial and Effective Microorganisms (EM), assist in creating sustainable practices for agriculture, animal husbandry, nature farming, environmental stewardship, construction, human health and hygiene, industrial, community activities and more. -->
										<p class="store2"><a href="#" onclick="CSAction(new Array(/*CMP*/'B955CC4C1'));return CSClickReturn();" csclick="B955CC4C1"><b>Beneficial and Effective Microorganisms</b></a> (EM), assist in creating sustainable practices for agriculture, animal husbandry, nature farming, environmental stewardship, construction, human health and hygiene, industrial, community activities and more. </p>
										<hr width="90%">
										<p class="store2"><!--EM Technology-->Sustainable Community Development, LLC is the North American importer of EM technology products from Japan and distributor of EM products manufactured in USA. </p>
										<p class="store2">SCD is uniquely qualified to introduce EM technology. Matthew Wood, founder and precedent setter of SCD, has studied in a three year program in Dr. Higa&#146;s laboratory at University of Ryukyus in Okinawa, Japan and worked closely with the EM Research Organization on the largest EM projects in USA.  Dr. Higa developed microbial culturing techniques and products that are used worldwide to solve health and sustainability problems associated with the quality of water, crop production, animal production, environment, biological diversity, and human hygiene.</p>
										<p class="store2">In addition SCD&#146;s staff and network of consultants have contributed and coordinated on projects throughout North America and numerous other countries as well as participating in numerous conferences and seminars around the world related to beneficial and effective microorganisms technology applications and research. SCD has staff and a network of consultants with special experience and training in bioremediation, solid waste and wastewater treatment, nutrition, agriculture, livestock management, toxic remediation, resource recycling, human health and hygiene, drinking water technology, ceramics, cosmetics and plastics.</p>
										<p class="store2">Microorganisms are everywhere.</p>
										<hr width="90%">
										<p class="store1"><!--Effective Microorganisms EM news-->Check Out</p>
										<p class="store2"><b>Introduction to Kyusei Farming philosophy. </b><a href="em/htmlpapers/kysuei1higa.html"><b>1st International Kyusei Farming Conference Keynote Address by Dr. Teruo Higa- </b></a></p>
										<p class="store2">Learn more about <a href="indexa.html"><b>Effective Microorganisms in Soil Plant Ecosystems</b></a>.</p>
										<p class="store2">Newsletters - <a href="news2002/index.html"><b>October newsletter online.</b></a></p>
									</td>
								</tr>
								<tr>
									<td>
										<hr>
									</td>
								</tr>
								<tr>
									<td>
										<p class="store2"><a href="em/resonance/index.html"><b>Read Excerpts </b></a>from An Earth Saving Revolution II by Dr. Teruo Higa on Magnetic Resonance and Water.</p>
										<hr>
									</td>
								</tr>
								<tr>
									<td></td>
								</tr>
								<tr>
									<td valign="middle">
										<table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="2" width="100%" align="left">
											<tr>
												<td width="134" align="center">
													<h4><csobj al="bokashi button" w="86" h="87" t="Button" cl="images/bokashibutton.jpg" ht="images/bokashibutton2.jpg"><a href="demo/bokashi.html" onmouseover="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'button',1)" onmouseout="return CSIShow(/*CMP*/'button',0)" onclick="CSIShow(/*CMP*/'button',2);return CSButtonReturn()"><img src="images/bokashibutton.jpg" width="86" height="87" name="button" border="0" alt="bokashi button"></a></csobj></h4>
												</td>
												<td>
													<p class="store2"><a href="store/embokashi.html"><img src="store/emprodnpic/bokashibucket026b.jpg" alt="bokashi" width="130" align="right" border="0"></a><b>EM bokashi is organic matter which has been anaerobically fermented with EM.</b></p>

													<p class="store2"><a href="demo/bokashi.html"><b>How to make Bokashi.</b></a></p>
													<p class="store2"><a href="store/embokashi.html"><b>Bokashi in the emtrading store.<br>
															</b></a><a href="store/embokashi.html?d=205549" target="_blank"><b><font color="#663333"><br>
																</font></b></a></p>
												</td>
											</tr>
										</table>
									</td>
								</tr>
								<tr>
									<td valign="middle" align="left" rowspan="3">
										<hr>
										<p class="store2"><b>EM Cleans Water on Zamami Island - The adoption of Effective Microorganisms in a holistic manner has created a unique model of EM acti</b><span class="store2"><b>vity. [</b><a href="em/emreport2001/zamami.html"><b>read more</b></a><b>]<br>
												</b></span></p>
									</td>
								</tr>
								<tr></tr>
								<tr></tr>
								<tr>
									<td valign="top">
										<hr>
										<p class="store2"><a href="http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/oct2001/nei-12.htm" target="_blank"><b>NIH News Release</b></a>- 10/12/01 from the National Institutes of Health<br>
											
											
											Antioxidant Vitamins and Zinc Reduce Risk of Vision Loss from Age-Related Macular Degeneration<a href="http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/oct2001/nei-12.htm" target="_blank"> </a>[<a href="links/index.html#antioxidantlinks"><b>more links for antioxidant info</b></a>]</p>
									</td>
								</tr>
								<tr>
									<td valign="top">
										<hr align="left">
										<p class="store"><b>The NEW EM-X Ceramic Powder (EM-XCP) is now available from SCD! --</b> EM Systems Network (EMSN), manufacturers of EM-XCP, has announced the latest development in EM technology from Japan - a stronger EM-XCP which has magnetic wave resonance TEN TIMES stronger than the old EM-XCP!! [<a href="em/emreport2001/emscp.html"><b>read more</b></a>]</p>
									</td>
								</tr>
								<tr>
									<td valign="top">
										<hr align="left">
										<p class="store"><b>Seminar on the Application of Effective Microorganisms (EM) Techniques in Organic Farming,</b> Organized by the International Society of the Royal Agricultural College, UK, May 2001- a new report online- [<a href="http://www.royagcol.ac.uk/research/conferences/sangakkara.htm" target="_blank"><b>read more</b></a>]</p>
									</td>
								</tr>
							</table>
							<table border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="0" width="463">
								<tr>
									<td align="center">
										<table border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width="98%">
											<tr>
												<td width="98%" align="left"></td>
											</tr>
											<tr>
												<td width="98%" align="left">
													<table border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="2" width="452">
														<tr>
															<td width="95" valign="top" align="center"><a href="#" onclick="CSAction(new Array(/*CMP*/'B8BE3F9F1'));return CSClickReturn();" csclick="B8BE3F9F1"><img src="store/emprodnpic/bkesrdanishtn.jpg" alt="earth saving revolution " width="95" height="133" border="0"></a></td>
															<td>
																<p class="store1">An Earth Saving Revolution I by Dr. Higa has been translated into Danish.</p>
																<p class="store1">[click on image to enlarge]</p>
																<p class="store1"><b>Contact 
																		<script type=text/javascript name="SCD" class="store2">
var _u   = "scd";
var _d ="emtrading.com";
var _l   = _u + "@" + _d;
var _m = "SCD";
document.write("<a href='mailto:"+_l+"'>"+_m+"</a>");
</script>
																		for availability.</b></p>
																<p class="store1"><b>913/541-9299 </b></p>
															</td>
														</tr>
														<tr>
															<td valign="top" colspan="2">
																<p class="store1"></p>
															</td>
														</tr>
													</table>
													<hr>
												</td>
											</tr>
										</table>
									</td>
								</tr>
							</table>
						</center>
					</td>
				</tr>
				<tr height="15"></tr>
				<tr height="45"></tr>
				<tr></tr>
				<tr>
					<td width="124" valign="top" align="center">
						<p class="footer"></p>
					</td>
					<td width="1"></td>
					<td align="center" width="78%"><csobj csref="../emsite.data/Components/footer.html" h="30" occur="29" t="Component" w="555">
							<div align="center">
								<table width="555" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0">
									<tr>
										<td align="center">
											<p class="footer">&copy;2000-2003 Sustainable Community Development, LLC<br>
												
							PO Box 14278, Shawnee Mission, KS 66285-4278<br>
												
							phone 913-541-9299, fax 913-541-0380<br>
											</p>
										</td>
									</tr>
								</table>
							</div>
						</csobj>
						<p class="footer"><a href="faq.html#disclaimer">disclaimer</a> | <a href="faq.html#privacy">privacy statement</a> | <a href="faq.html#security">security</a><br>
							<font color="#ffffce"><a href="sitemap.html">sitemap</a></font></p>
					</td>
				</tr>
			</table>
			<p></p>
		</center>
	</body>

</html>
--------------040305070909080007000706--



.

From - Sat Nov 30 19:41:34 2002
X-UIDL: 322733535
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A7D53480038; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 14:56:05 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A7DFB196001C; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 14:56:15 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id XT8TQSV6; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 14:56:01 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 3877 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sat, 30 Nov 2002 14:56:35 -0500
Received: from 152.163.225.104 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 14:56:35 -0500
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-r08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id
          d.c.368644c (25914) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sat, 30 Nov
          2002 14:56:01 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="part1_c.368644c.2b1a71d1_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows AU sub 10503
Message-ID:  <c.368644c.2b1a71d1@aol.com>
Date:         Sat, 30 Nov 2002 14:56:01 EST
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Paramagnetic Rock Dusts
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322733535
Status: U

--part1_c.368644c.2b1a71d1_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi David -

Can you let us know when the research you described in your recent e-mail
about paramagnetism is published?  What journal?  Or even better, can you
have the authors send a copy of the paper to me?

Solid scientific experiments need to be performed on paramagnetism, and I am
very pleased to see the experiment that you describe.

At Soil Foodweb Inc. we did our own, not-published research on paramagnetism,
where we took rock that measured high on the paramagnetic scale using the
PCSM, and rock that did not measure high paramagnetism, but which had similar
mineral content - both basalts from the Columbia River basin.

Since the idea is that it is energy that paramagnetic rocks are supposed to
impart, we wrapped the rocks in plastic bags to prevent the mineral
difference from being important.  We placed the plastic wrapped rock in the
soil in pots.  No one knew which rocks were in which pots, except for me, and
from that point I was not further involved in any aspect of maintaining the
experiment.  Eight to ten radish seeds were planted in each pot.  There was
no difference in any discernable measure between the growth of the plants in
paramagnetic and not-paramagnetic rock treatments.

But that was only one instance where paramagnetism was clearly not
influencing anything.  Since the results were negative, since it was only one
trial with soil that was not high in microbes to begin, I did not publish.
But I didn't persue paramagnetism any further, waiting for someone to do some
work that would explain when paramagnetism worked, and when it did not.

Your results would strongly suggest that it is particular nutrients released
from the rocks that are more important than the paramagnetism.  The high
paramagnetic rock, of a different mineral content than the less paramagnetic
rock, did not impart their high paramagnetic energy to the plants, or
microbes, or anything else.  I would interpret your results to mean that the
less-paramagnetic rock released the mineral nutrients that the plants needed
in order to grow larger and have more biomass.

Would you also interpret these results in that light?

Still, it would be good to see all the methods used in order to fully judge
for ourselves.   I await the published paper, but it certainly seems you have
solid data to help us understand paramagnetism.


Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
www.soilfoodweb.com

--part1_c.368644c.2b1a71d1_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">Hi David - <BR>
<BR>
Can you let us know when the research you described in your recent e-mail about paramagnetism is published?&nbsp; What journal?&nbsp; Or even better, can you have the authors send a copy of the paper to me?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Solid scientific experiments need to be performed on paramagnetism, and I am very pleased to see the experiment that you describe.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
At Soil Foodweb Inc. we did our own, not-published research on paramagnetism, where we took rock that measured high on the paramagnetic scale using the PCSM, and rock that did not measure high paramagnetism, but which had similar mineral content - both basalts from the Columbia River basin. <BR>
<BR>
Since the idea is that it is energy that paramagnetic rocks are supposed to impart, we wrapped the rocks in plastic bags to prevent the mineral difference from being important.&nbsp; We placed the plastic wrapped rock in the soil in pots.&nbsp; No one knew which rocks were in which pots, except for me, and from that point I was not further involved in any aspect of maintaining the experiment.&nbsp; Eight to ten radish seeds were planted in each pot.&nbsp; There was no difference in any discernable measure between the growth of the plants in paramagnetic and not-paramagnetic rock treatments.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
But that was only one instance where paramagnetism was clearly not influencing anything.&nbsp; Since the results were negative, since it was only one trial with soil that was not high in microbes to begin, I did not publish.&nbsp; But I didn't persue paramagnetism any further, waiting for someone to do some work that would explain when paramagnetism worked, and when it did not.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Your results would strongly suggest that it is particular nutrients released from the rocks that are more important than the paramagnetism.&nbsp; The high paramagnetic rock, of a different mineral content than the less paramagnetic rock, did not impart their high paramagnetic energy to the plants, or microbes, or anything else.&nbsp; I would interpret your results to mean that the less-paramagnetic rock released the mineral nutrients that the plants needed in order to grow larger and have more biomass.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Would you also interpret these results in that light?<BR>
<BR>
Still, it would be good to see all the methods used in order to fully judge for ourselves.&nbsp;&nbsp; I await the published paper, but it certainly seems you have solid data to help us understand paramagnetism.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Elaine Ingham<BR>
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.<BR>
www.soilfoodweb.com</FONT></HTML>

--part1_c.368644c.2b1a71d1_boundary--

.

From - Wed Feb 12 23:57:40 2003
X-UIDL: 322737159
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 10000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A1BA9F60036; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 23:40:26 -0500
Received: from intrex.net [209.42.230.21] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.13) id A1BDF3ED009A; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 23:40:29 -0500
Message-ID: <3E4B4E6A.6070005@intrex.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 23:51:06 -0800
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
Organization: http://market-farming.com  --  Venaura Farm
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To:  lfl@intrex.net
Subject: Ocean Arks International - 12 Principles For Designing Natural Wastewater
 Treatment Systems
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
 boundary="------------040906010700010909050607"
X-Declude-Sender: lfl@intrex.net [209.42.230.21]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. Whitelisted
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
X-UIDL: 322737159
Status: U

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------040906010700010909050607
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


<http://www.oceanarks.org/ecodesign/principles/>

-- 
L.F.London
lfl@intrex.net
http://market-farming.com
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/pcwiki/index.php/london

--------------040906010700010909050607
Content-Type: text/html;
 name="www.oceanarks.org/ecodesign/principles/"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline;
 filename="www.oceanarks.org/ecodesign/principles/"
Content-Base: "http://www.oceanarks.org/ecodesign/pri
	nciples/"
Content-Location: "http://www.oceanarks.org/ecodesign/pri
	nciples/"

<html>



  <head>


    <title>Ocean Arks International - 12 Principles For Designing Natural Wastewater Treatment Systems</title>


    <style type="text/css"><!--
      body {
        font-family:      verdana, arial, helvetica;
        font-size:        10pt;
        margin-left:      0;
        margin-right:     0;
        margin-top:       0;
        margin-bottom:    0;
      }
      a {
        text-decoration:  none;
      }
      a:hover {
        text-decoration:  underline;
      }
      td {
        font-size:        10pt;
      }
      big {
        font-size:        11pt;
      }
      big big {
        font-size:        12pt;
      }
      small {
        font-size:        9pt;
      }
      td.tab {
        font-size:        8pt;
        color:            #888888;
      }
      td.tab a {
        color:            #888888;
        text-decoration:  underline;
      }
      td.tab a:hover {
        color:            #000088;
      }
    --></style>


    <script language="JavaScript"><!--//
      function WM_preloadImages() {
        // Source: Webmonkey Code Library
        // (http://www.hotwired.com/webmonkey/javascript/code_library/)
        // Author: Nadav Savio
        // Author Email: nadav@wired.com
        if (document.images) {
          if (typeof document.WM == 'undefined') {
            document.WM = new Object();
          }
          document.WM.loadedImages = new Array();
          var argLength = WM_preloadImages.arguments.length;
          for(arg=0;arg<argLength;arg++) {
            document.WM.loadedImages[arg] = new Image();
            document.WM.loadedImages[arg].src = WM_preloadImages.arguments[arg];
          }
        }
      }
      function imgswitch(img_id, img_source) {
        document.images[img_id].src = img_source;
      }
    //--></script>


  </head>



  <body bgcolor="#ffffff" background="/img/layout/sider.gif"
        text="#000000" link="#000088" vlink="#000088" alink="#000088"
        marginwidth="0" marginheight="0" leftmargin="0" topmargin="0"
  >


    <script language="JavaScript1.2" src="/qm/menu_data.js"></script>
    <script language="JavaScript1.2" src="/qm/dqm_script.js"></script>
    <a name="top"><!-- --></a>
    <map name="headersub">
      <area shape="rect" coords="497, 1, 595, 30" href="/" alt="Click to return to Homepage">
    </map>
    <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" align="left" width="607" height="100%">
      <tr>
        <td colspan="3" width="607" height="67"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="607" height="67">
            <tr>
              <td colspan="4" width="607" height="32"><img src="/img/head_sub/header_s_01.gif" width="607" height="32" border="0" usemap="#headersub" alt="Ocean Arks International"></td>
            </tr>
            <tr>
              <td colspan="4" width="607" height="15"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="607" height="15">
                  <tr>
                    <td width="52" height="15"><a href="/news/"><img src="/img/menu_sub/menu_s_1.gif" width="52" height="15" border="0" name="menu0" id="menu0" onmouseover="showMenu(event)" onmouseout="hideMenu(event)"></a></td>
                    <td width="73" height="15"><a href="/about/"><img src="/img/menu_sub/menu_s_2.gif" width="73" height="15" border="0" name="menu1" id="menu1" onmouseover="showMenu(event)" onmouseout="hideMenu(event)"></a></td>
                    <td width="154" height="15"><a href="/natural/"><img src="/img/menu_sub/menu_s_3.gif" width="154" height="15" border="0" name="menu2" id="menu2" onmouseover="showMenu(event)" onmouseout="hideMenu(event)"></a></td>
                    <td width="109" height="15"><a href="/ecodesign/"><img src="/img/menu_sub/menu_s_4.gif" width="109" height="15" border="0" name="menu3" id="menu3" onmouseover="showMenu(event)" onmouseout="hideMenu(event)"></a></td>
                    <td width="71" height="15"><a href="/education/"><img src="/img/menu_sub/menu_s_5.gif" width="71" height="15" border="0" name="menu4" id="menu4" onmouseover="showMenu(event)" onmouseout="hideMenu(event)"></a></td>
                    <td width="98" height="15"><a href="/community/"><img src="/img/menu_sub/menu_s_6.gif" width="98" height="15" border="0" name="menu5" id="menu5" onmouseover="showMenu(event)" onmouseout="hideMenu(event)"></a></td>
                    <td width="43" height="15"><a href="/links/"><img src="/img/menu_sub/menu_s_7.gif" width="43" height="15" border="0" name="menu6" id="menu6" onmouseover="showMenu(event)" onmouseout="hideMenu(event)"></a></td>
                    <td width="7" height="15"><img src="/img/menu_sub/menu_s_8.gif" width="7" height="15"></td>
                  </tr>
              </table></td>
            </tr>
            <tr>
              <td width="128" height="20" valign="top"><a href="/ecodesign/"><img src="/img/head_sub/header_s_02_4.gif" width="128" height="20" border="0" alt="Ecological Design (Home)"></a></td>
              <td width="19" height="20" valign="top"><img src="/img/head_sub/header_s_03.gif" width="19" height="20"></td>
              <td width="445" height="20" background="/img/head_sub/header_s_04.gif" align="left" valign="middle" class="tab"><img src="/img/dot_xxxxxx.gif" width="445" height="2"><br>
                &gt;&gt; 12 Principles For Designing Natural Wastewater Treatment Systems
              </td>
              <td width="15" height="20" valign="top"><img src="/img/head_sub/header_s_05.gif" width="15" height="20"></td>
            </tr>
        </table></td>
      </tr>
      <tr>
        <td rowspan="2" width="30" height="100%"><img src="/img/dot_xxxxxx.gif" width="30" height="1"></td>
        <td rowspan="2" width="10"><img src="/img/dot_xxxxxx.gif" width="10" height="1"></td>
        <td valign="top" width="567" height="100%">
  <br>
  <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" align="center">
    <tr>
      <td align="center">
        <big><b>12 Principles For Designing Natural Wastewater Treatment Systems</b></big>
      </td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
      <td>
        <br>
        <br>
These twelve principles are adapted from "The Design of Living Technologies for Waste Treatment" by John Todd and Beth Josephson.  Ecological Engineering 6 (1996) 109-136.<br>
<br>
<br>
<table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0">
  <tr>
    <td valign="top">
      <b>1.</b>
    </td>
    <td valign="top">
      <b>Develop geological and mineral diversity.</b><br>
      <br>
      The living engines of the planet are the autotrophic bacteria that derive food and energy from inorganic mineral sources. These bacteria are comprised of chemosynthetic and photosynthetic forms. Between them they facilitate entire food chains.  Autotrophic bacteria are dependent on mineral diversity and availability and on the amount and kind of light.<br>
      &nbsp;
    </td>
  </tr>
  <tr>
    <td valign="top">
      <b>2.</b>
    </td>
    <td valign="top">
      <b>Nutrient reservoirs are essential.</b><br>
      <br>
      Mineral diversity provides the long-term foundation for nutrient diversity. Microorganisms and plants require nutrients to be present in available form. If carbon is recalcitrant or nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium ratios out of balance, or trace elements not readily available, subsequent ecosystems may be impoverished in key ways. Nutrient imbalanced systems become prone to disease and subject to biological impoverishment. Over time species in such systems die out.<br>
      &nbsp;
    </td>
  </tr>
  <tr>
    <td valign="top">
      <b>3.</b>
    </td>
    <td valign="top">
      <b>Engineer steep gradients into the system.</b><br>
      <br>
      The history of planetary biota has, at its core, systems that have evolved between steep gradients in which the biochemistry of life is "flipped" between different states.  Steep gradients can be defined in terms of gases, like the aerobic or anaerobic states expressed by oxygen, redox potential, pH, temperature, humic, and ligand or metal related states.<br>
      &nbsp;
    </td>
  </tr>
  <tr>
    <td valign="top">
      <b>4.</b>
    </td>
    <td valign="top">
      <b>Create high rates of exchange.</b><br>
      <br>
      In ecologically engineered systems the objective is to maximize the surface area exposed to the waste stream without hindering the through flow of the system or the metabolism of the contained communities. Higher plants floating on water surfaces develop root complexes that provide extraordinary surface areas for microbial communities, in some cases as much as ten thousand times greater than the surface areas of comparable conventionally engineered systems.<br>
      &nbsp;
    </td>
  </tr>
  <tr>
    <td valign="top">
      <b>5.</b>
    </td>
    <td valign="top">
      <b>Periodic and random pulsed exchanges improve performance.</b><br>
      <br>
      In the classic text, Perspectives in Ecological Theory, systems ecology pioneer Ramon Margalef discussed the significance of regular or periodic outside influences as well as that of random external events in shaping the structure and response systems of ecosystems. He suggested: "Direct reaction of organisms to environmental change is most useful if the environment is being altered in an unpredictable way." This suggests that
      internal self organization and self design in ecosystems can be heightened by exposure to periodic and predictable external influences (seasons for example) as well as to environmental shocks (cold or extreme winds) of more or less knowable frequency and distribution. Self-design to a high level of organization may be further enhanced by exposure to random or rare perturbations. Examples include the temperature differentials between night and day and the variations in the flow and loading of wastewater.<br>
      &nbsp;
    </td>
  </tr>
  <tr>
    <td valign="top">
      <b>6.</b>
    </td>
    <td valign="top">
      <b>Cellular design is the structural model.</b><br>
      <br>
      Design in nature differs from human engineering in a number of fundamental ways. In life the organizing architecture is the cell. When a living system scales up or gets larger it does so by increasing the number of cells. By way of contrast, scaling up in a standard waste treatment facility usually involves installing larger sizes of clarifiers or aerated lagoons, and so forth. With the appropriate structural materials, the ingenuity of the natural world is worthy of imitation. A single living cell is engineered as a whole system, capable of division, replication, nutrition, synthesis of molecular materials, digestion, excretion, and communicating with adjacent cells.<br>
      &nbsp;
    </td>
  </tr>
  <tr>
    <td valign="top">
      <b>7.</b>
    </td>
    <td valign="top">
      <b>Incorporate a law of the minimum.</b><br>
      <br>
      Ecosystems do not exist in isolation. They are connected to and exchange with other systems through an array of couplings. Neighboring ecosystems mutually define each other. This process extends outward in a lattice-work of interconnections that, ultimately, is planetary in scope. In integrating this principle into the design of living technologies, the question is: how many sub ecosystems will create a viable, self designing/organizing system that can sustain itself over time measured in years or decades. In Ecological Engineering, Jorgensen and Mitsch recognize the problem and propose a general rule: "Ecosystems are coupled with other ecosystems. This coupling should be maintained wherever possible and ecosystems should not be isolated from their surrounding."<br>
      &nbsp;
    </td>
  </tr>
  <tr>
    <td valign="top">
      <b>8.</b>
    </td>
    <td valign="top">
      <b>Introduce microbial communities.</b><br>
      <br>
      That microbial communities are the foundation of living technologies is, by now, obvious. What is less obvious, if the potential of ecological engineering is to be optimized, is the diversity in communities of microorganisms required.  Bioaugmentation, the addition of natural bacteria, increases this diversity.<br>
      &nbsp;
    </td>
  </tr>
  <tr>
    <td valign="top">
      <b>9.</b>
    </td>
    <td valign="top">
      <b>Photosynthetic foundations are essential.</b><br>
      <br>
      Ecological engineering was founded on an appreciation of the ecological importance of plants and photosynthetic activity. The use of plants, particularly a diversity of plants, can result in balanced ecosystems that require less energy, aeration, and chemical management. The root zones are superb micro-sites for bacterial communities and increase the available surface area for microbes by several orders of magnitude. Many plants oxygenate waste and water and take up nutrients directly.<br>
      &nbsp;
    </td>
  </tr>
  <tr>
    <td valign="top">
      <b>10.</b>
    </td>
    <td valign="top">
      <b>Encourage phylogenetic diversity.</b><br>
      <br>
      The regulators, control agents, and internal designers of living systems are often unusual and unpredictable organisms.  As well as plants, incorporate snails and a variety of indigenous species. Snails play a particularly important role in living systems, cleaning surfaces and consuming sludge.<br>
      &nbsp;
    </td>
  </tr>
  <tr>
    <td valign="top">
      <b>11.</b>
    </td>
    <td valign="top">
      <b>Sequenced and repeated seedings are part of maintenance.</b><br>
      <br>
      For a living system to be optimally effective, it must be interlinked through gaseous, nutrient, mineral, and biological pathways to the external environment. It should reflect internally the intelligence of the seasons, and should be capable of responding to perturbations and random events. It should contain pathways that originate in varied terrestrial and aquatic ecosystems. Periodic genetic innovations should be orchestrated by the ecological engineer or operator.<br>
      &nbsp;
    </td>
  </tr>
  <tr>
    <td valign="top">
      <b>12.</b>
    </td>
    <td valign="top">
      <b>Reflection of the microcosmos is a fundamental of design.</b><br>
      <br>
      The concept of the microcosmos most relevant to the evolution of living systems lies in the Hermetic epigram "as above, so below." For purposes of ecological design, the miniaturization of nature - not with relation to the pieces but in scale - should echo the fundamental patterns of the macrocosm. The Earth and its atmosphere are relevant to the design of the living system if it is to be a true microcosmos.<br>
      &nbsp;
    </td>
  </tr>
</table>
<br>
John Todd finishes up his paper with the following paragraph: "As the millennium approaches, the human community finds itself at a turning point. The twentieth century has seen the emergence of high rate computation and electronics, shortly followed by their miniaturization. The century also has seen the biological and ecological sciences emerge as disciplines of complexity, exchange, symbiosis, and dynamic states. The future lies in the miniaturization of nature and the building of living technologies. The goal should be for human populations to support themselves without destroying the wild systems that are the mother to human ingenuity. This represents a radical restructuring of society. It includes a partnership between humanity and nature, in which we become stewards of the living systems that sustain us yet, in ultimate terms, are beyond our knowing or controlling."
      </td>
    </tr>
  </table>
        </td>
      </tr>
      <tr>
        <td align="center" width="577" valign="bottom">
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <a href="/">Home</a>
          | <a href="/news/">News</a>
          | <a href="/about/">About OAI</a>
          | <a href="/natural/">Natural Treatment Systems</a>
          | <a href="/ecodesign/">Ecological Design</a>
          | <a href="/education/">Education</a>
          | <a href="/community/">OAI Community</a>
          | <a href="/links/">Links</a><br>
          <a href="/sitemap/">Site Map</a><br>
          <br>
                    <img src="/img/footer.gif" width="287" height="128" border="0" usemap="#footermap" alt="Ocean Arks International | 176 Battery St. Burlington, VT USA 05401 | Tel:802-860-0011 Fax:802-860-0022">
          <img src="/img/dot_xxxxxx.gif" width="15" height="1">          <map name="footermap">
            <area shape="rect" coords="97, 49, 181, 60" href="mailto:info@oceanarks.org" alt="E-mail us at info@oceanarks.org">
            <area shape="rect" coords="98, 92, 179, 104" href="mailto:webmaster@oceanarks.org" alt="E-mail the webmaster at webmaster@oceanarks.org">
          </map>
        </td>
      </tr>
    </table>


  </body>



</html>

--------------040906010700010909050607--



.

From - Fri Feb 21 22:59:38 2003
X-UIDL: 345832556
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A2A910000D8; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:57:13 -0500
Received: from mpls-qmqp-04.inet.qwest.net [63.231.195.115] by smtp.intrex.net
  (SMTPD32-7.13) id A2A6AEFE0094; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:57:10 -0500
Received: (qmail 3066 invoked by uid 0); 21 Feb 2003 20:50:35 -0000
Received: from mpls-pop-04.inet.qwest.net (63.231.195.4)
  by mpls-qmqp-04.inet.qwest.net with QMQP; 21 Feb 2003 20:50:35 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO soilfoodweb.com) (65.102.124.175)
  by mpls-pop-04.inet.qwest.net with SMTP; 21 Feb 2003 20:57:05 -0000
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 13:04:20 -0800
Message-ID: <3E569454.6020407@soilfoodweb.com>
From: "Soil Foodweb, Inc." <info@soilfoodweb.com>
To: "Elaine" <elaine@soilfoodweb.com>
Organization: Soil Foodweb Inc.
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: SFI Feb In-text 2003
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Declude-Sender: info@soilfoodweb.com [63.231.195.115]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 345832556

The February E-zine is here!

If you want to un-subscribe, please return an e-mail with "un-subscribe" 
in the subject line.

Please communicate with me any problems or comments or observations you 
have. I especially like to know about any problems that people have with 
compost tea, or compost, or getting orgnaisms back into soil. The 
"detective" work is fun!

So, until next month - enjoy!

Elaine Ingham
President, SFI
SFI Corvallis, OR
SFI Lismore, Australia
SFI Port Jefferson, NY
SFI Hilversum, The Netherlands
SFI, Cambridge, New Zealand

----------------------
February 2003 SFI E-Zine

Table of Contents

1. SFI Europe Lab Opens in Holland
2. Apples in Mexico
3. Compost Tea Grant 2003 (and how to get data from 2002)
4. Eating Organic Cuts Kids Pesticide Loads
5. NOP, Compost tea, MOFGA and help from Maine
6. New Mycorrhizal Assessment Service
7. United Nations Launches $26 Million Initiative to Identify New Soil
Organisms
8. National Organic Agriculture Standards" satellite broadcast


1. SFI Europe Opens!!!!!

The SFI lab in Hilversum, The Netherlands is now open.

Soil Foodweb Europe b.v.
Noorderweg 66
1221 AB Hilversum
The Netherlands
Tel +31(0)35 6245050 FAX 31(0)35 6422177

soil.foodweb@inter.nl.net

We are working in conjunctions with BLGG, a soil chemistry lab 
well-known in Europe for excellent service. They had noted that there 
were no new innovations in soil chemistry in the last 30 years, and 
wanted to be part of the new wave in understanding and improving soil.

With the opening of SFI Europe, we will be forging ahead on the 
molecular identification projects we have been working on. With BLGG, we 
hope to move the molecular ID of nematodes into commercial practice, as 
well as expand the Beneficial Organic Assay from the partially molecular 
methods we are using to fully molecular.

Hopefully, within the next year, we will have the E. coli rapid-ID 
method finally brought down to a reasonable cost and time for growers.

In addition to these projects, we plan on working with folks on the 
Chroma assay. We have to do the ID of the different bands of the 
materials in the Chroma tests first, before offering it as a method, so 
theres some work to do first! We have a few things to be working on, 
and we welcome help from others in getting these advances off the ground!

For those of you in Europe, the Mid-East and Africa, you now have a lab 
much closer to you, and far more reasonable shipping costs!

Please welcome the SFI Europe lab, and Karel Eigenraam as the SFI Europe 
Lab Director, and Jan Paul Koorn as the BLGG link with the SFI Europe lab.

------------------------------
2. Apples in Mexico
From: Alberto Gameros <viverosgameros@prodigy.net.mx>
Dear Dr. Elaine -

Last year we use compost tea in apple orchard in Chihuahua
Mexico, with a home made brewer in 2 orchards

Orchard had old and large tree golden delicious trees with soil
disease problems. Each year, the trees produced cracking fruit,
with many russet and small size. Last year we applied compost tea
2 times in the season at rate of 2 liter per tree, and a soil drench.
In the harvest we pick apples free of russet and cracking and the
apples were medium size instead of small. And the skin very waxy

Orchard two in summer in the rainy season, we applied compost tea
foliar each 8-10 days at rate 30 liter per hectares. Again, we had not
problems with foliar or fruit diseases.
----------------------------

3. THE COMPOST TEA GRANT

For those of you who want to participate, SFI will run your compost, and 
three teas, and your soil next spring for free, if you are accepted in 
the program, and you pay for the soil this spring.

We still have space for people interested in working with us on any tea 
brewer.

Call or e-mail and get your forms from SFI
-------------------------------------------

4. EATING ORGANICS CUTS KIDS PESTICIDE LOADS

January 31, 2003

A University of Washington study analyzed pesticide breakdown products
(metabolites) in pre-school aged children and found that children eating
organic fruits and vegetables had concentrations of pesticide
metabolites six times lower than children eating conventional produce.
The study compared metabolite concentrations of organophosphorus (OP)
pesticides (a class of insecticides that disrupt the nervous system) in
the urine of 39 urban and suburban children aged 2 to 4 years. The
researchers' findings point to a relatively simple way for parents to
reduce their children's chemical loads--serve organic produce.

The authors focused on children's dietary pesticide exposure because
children are at greater risk for two reasons: they eat more food
relative to body mass, and they eat foods higher in pesticide
residues--such as juices, fresh fruits and vegetables. An earlier study
cited by the authors looked at pesticide metabolites in the urine of 96
urban and suburban children and found OP pesticides in the urine of all
children but one. The parents of the child with no pesticide metabolites
reported buying exclusively organic produce.

Researchers recruited children for the study outside of conventional and
organic grocery stores in the Seattle metropolitan region and asked
parents to record all food consumed in a three-day period prior to
collecting their child's urine over the next 24 hours. Based on the food
diaries, the study assigned the children into groups consuming at least
75% organic or at least 75% conventional fruits and vegetables. Parents
were also asked about household pesticide use in their homes and on
gardens, lawns and pets. Although the authors found that parents of
children eating conventional diets were more likely to report some home
pesticide use, they did not find significant differences in
concentrations of pesticide metabolites based on this use.

The children's urine was tested for five metabolites of OP pesticides
which are registered in the U.S. and frequently applied to food crops.
The study focused on these pesticides because they are metabolized into
several easily recognizable compounds. Breakdown products of pesticides
such as malathion, azinphos-methyl, parathion, oxydemeton-methyl,
phosmet, methyl parathion, methidatihon and dimethoate were found at the
highest concentrations. Of these pesticides, azinphos-methyl and phosmet
are the two primarily used on fresh produce within the U.S. Lower
concentrations were found of breakdown products from diazinon and
chlorpyrifos.

The researchers found median concentrations of OP metabolites six times
lower in the children with organic diets. Average concentrations for the
organic group were actually nine times lower, suggesting that some
children eating conventional produce had much higher concentrations of
OP metabolites in their systems.

Because many of the OP pesticides break down into identical metabolites,
the study did not provide information on the specific pesticides
children were exposed to. However, the study did determine that some
children were at risk for consuming more OP pesticides than the U.S.
Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) considers "safe" as a daily dose.
The researchers concluded that organic fruits and vegetables can reduce
exposure levels from above to below EPA chronic reference doses,
"thereby shifting exposures from a range of uncertain risk to a range of
negligible risk."

These findings confirm what is already known about pesticide residues on
conventional produce. Consumers Union analyzed U.S. Department of
Agriculture residue data for all pesticides for 1999 and 2000 and warned
parents of small children to limit or avoid conventionally grown foods
known to have high residues such as cantaloupes, green beans (canned or
frozen), pears, strawberries, tomatoes (Mexican grown) and winter
squash. The Seattle study, which reflects children's food diaries, adds
apples to that list.

Susan Kegley, staff scientist at Pesticide Action Network states, "We
have been concerned for a long time about continuous exposure to
organochlorine pesticides because they persist in our bodies for years.
This study reveals that we are continuously exposed to OP pesticides,
not because they linger in our bodies, but because we are persistently
being exposed through the food we eat every day."

The study's main conclusion--eating organic fruits and vegetables can
significantly reduce children's pesticide loads--is information that
parents can act on to reduce their children's risk. A secondary
conclusion--that small children may be exceeding "safe" levels of
pesticide exposure--is information that regulators should act on and, at
the very least, reduce uses of these pesticides on food crops.
Related News:

Sources:

Organophosphorus pesticide exposure or urban and suburban pre-school
children with organic and conventional diets, Cynthia L. Curl, Richard
A. Fenske, Kai Elgethun, Environmental Health Perspectives, October 13,
2002, National Institute of Environmental Sciences, EHP Online,
http://www.ehponline.org; Do You Know What You're Eating? February 1999,
Consumers Union of United States, Inc,
http://www.consumersunion.org/food/do_you_know2.htm; Pesticide residues
in conventional, IPM-grown and organic foods: Insights from three U.S.
data sets, Food Additives and Contaminants, May 2002, 
http://www.consumersunion.org/food/organicsumm.htm

Contact: PANNA
PANUPS is a weekly email news service providing resource guides and
reporting on pesticide issues that don't always get coverage by the
mainstream media. It's produced by Pesticide Action Network North
America, a non-profit and non-governmental organization working to
advance sustainable alternatives to pesticides worldwide.
You can join our efforts! We gladly accept donations for our work and
all contributions are tax deductible in the United States. Visit 
http://www.panna.org/donate


Lucy Goodman
New Paris, OH
Boulder Belt Organics
-----------------

5. NOP, Compost Tea, MOFGA, and Help from Maine

Eric Goodenough wrote me to ask what was going on with the NOP with 
respect to compost tea. I told him what I knew about the NOSB decision 
to make no decision. Eric wrote back to me to say that the Maine Organic 
Farmers and Growers Association (MOFGA) had come out with regulations 
that were anti-compost tea.

Eric then wrote the following letter to MOFGA, subject line:

Compost Tea: A lost tool?

Mary,
I'm writing a quick note to voice my concern to you and to MOFGA 
regarding the use of compost teas. It is my belief that compost teas are 
an important tool to organic growers seeking an affordable, healthful 
and potent means of improving the vitality of soils and crops. We are 
still learning about the potential of compost tea. There are strong 
opinions on both sides of whether or not compost teas present a 
potential health threat. However, there does exist good science in 
support of compost tea use and thousands of growers are claiming success 
with its use.

Some of us have been concerned about how the NOP would change organic 
practices, that sustainable reason might get replaced by bureaucratic or 
political manipulation of approved materials and practices. I believe we 
are at yet another pivotal junctures where we have a choice about how 
the USDA organic label will support or hinder the small farmer. Will the 
decisions made have real impact on the ability of the small farmer to 
make a decent living by growing organically? Or will influence, 
regardless of affinity, rule the day? I fear that the compost tea issue 
is has been clouded with professional reputations to uphold and personal 
axes to grind. When this happens, farmers lose. I urge MOFGA to consider 
fairly the merits of using compost teas and if, after having looked at 
both sides, there is still is an inability to disprove their safe use I 
suggest the following:

* Listen to other certifiers with growers using compost teas. Are there 
any proven examples of illness or death resulting from the use of 
compost teas? Is so, why did they occur? Have growers been successful in 
their use of compost teas?

* Seek out and consider both sides of the science behind the brewing of 
compost teas. More is forthcoming. Peer reviewed tests conducted by 
scientists who have direct (read: hands-on) experience with compost tea 
brewing should be given balanced consideration (at the very least) with 
those who claim to know about compost teas but have no practical 
experience. (Anyone can grow E. coli if they want to, but there are 
things we do to avoid encouraging pathogens.)

* If the NOP does not specifically mention compost teas, then I suggest 
no action need be taken.

The actual number of compost tea brewers in Maine is few although word 
is spreading about its effectiveness in replacing pesticides and 
fungicides and increasing soil and plant vitality. Compost teas have 
become a critical piece of Sunnybrook Farm Orchard's organic practices. 
We would saddened to learn that we could no longer use such a great tool 
because someone played the "fear card" before the "reason card" was 
drawn upon.


Eric Goodenough
Sunnybrook Farm Orchard, Inc.
255 Ossipee Hill Road
East Waterboro, ME 04030
207-247-8448 (o) 207-247-8228 (h)
207-247-8333 (f) sfo@gwi.net


Then, I received information that a memo had come out in early January 
from, apparently, a USDA toxicologist. Owusu Bandele spoke about this in 
January, saying the NOP had recommended no compost tea use. This is not 
the case. A memo from a single individual cannot be used to form 
national policy.

Eric just received a letter from MOFGA, specifically from Mary Yurlina, 
certification@mofga.org, where they seem to have rescinded their 
decision on compost tea.

This is the quote from the letter from MOFGA about compost tea:

My understanding is that compost teas made from compost products that 
were finished according to one of several acceptable methods will be 
permitted. For 2003 at least, brewed compost tea will be considered a 
type of compost tea and the same conditions apply.

Eric continued:

While this bodes well for this year, I think brewed compost tea use will 
continue to be scrutinized for efficacy and safety and its future will 
remain uncertain until good science prevails.

Thanks,

Eric Goodenough
Sunnybrook Farm Orchard, Inc.
255 Ossipee Hill Road
East Waterboro, ME 04030
207-247-8448 (o) 207-247-8228 (h)
207-247-8333 (f) sfo@gwi.net

So, I hope that gives everyone an understanding that indeed, there are 
no limitations on using compost tea, as long as the compost is 
certified. (Read, made properly).

We still need to push the NOP to have a meeting about compost and 
compost tea regs that are sensible. We need to finish up some further 
fully-replicated testing on E. coli laden compost, and what happens when 
we make tea with it. Those data should be forth-coming soon (getting 
done this week).
--------------------------------------------
6. Mycorrhizal Service now available!

These are good folks to work with, especially when you want VAM spore 
counts done. When SFI gets overloaded with work, we get Efren to help us.
- ERI

MycoRoots http://www.mycoroots.com

"We want you to get to know your friends belowground"

Our consulting services are directed towards golf course superintendents,
plant growers, farmers, environmental consultants, landscape architects, and
private landowners interested on the benefits and management of mycorrhizal
fungi in their lands.

Efren Cazares mycoroots@attbi.com
---------------------------------------------
7. United Nations Launches $26 Million Initiative to Identify New Soil 
Organisms

Copied from:

Alternative Agriculture News
Volume 21, Number 1 (January 2003)

Henry A. Wallace Center for Agricultural & Environmental Policy at 
Winrock International
1621 North Kent Street, Suite 1200
Arlington, VA 22209-2134 USA
Phone: (703) 525-9430, Fax: (703) 525-1744
E-mail: wallacecenter@winrock.org
Website: www.winrock.org/wallace


The United Nations Environment Programme has launched a $26 million,
5-year project to discover new species of soil organisms--"the last
great catalogue of undiscovered life on Earth," according to London's
Independent (November 29, www.independent.co.uk). Biologists will hunt
for and classify soil bacteria, fungi, insects, mites, and worms in
seven countries: Brazil, Mexico, Ivory Coast, Uganda, Kenya, Indonesia,
and India. Scientists increasingly view soil biodiversity as the key to
sustainable agriculture because soil-dwelling species play essential
roles in soil fertility and nutrient cycling to plants, the article
said; the discoveries are expected also to lead to new drugs and
industrial applications. Several media stories on the new UN-led program
cited important gains from prior studies of soil organisms, including
three-fold higher crop yields made possible by introducing soil-mixing
earthworms to degraded tea plantations in India; the use of certain
termite species to improve rock-hard soils in Africa and Australia; and
the use of nitrogen-fixing soil bacteria in place of nitrogen
fertilizers in Brazil, which has saved a billion dollars annually for
the nation's agriculture. A news release from Britain's University of
Exeter, where Professor Jo Anderson heads the project's technical
advisory group, is online at www.ex.ac.uk/newsun.htm.

------------------------------------
8. National Organic Agriculture Standards" satellite broadcast

Andy, Can you assist me by sending the publicity blurb below to
the SARE listserv?

Scott

Washington State University Cooperation Extension and the
Washington State Department of Agriculture are offering a
satellite broadcast focused on the National Organic Agriculture
Standards and the implications they pose for Extension Agents,
state and national certification staff, consultants and others
involved in the production of organic commodities.

The broadcast will present the basic requirements of the USDA's
National Organic Standards, and describe how the new regulations
affect organic producers.

The program will be aired on March 21, from 10 am to noon,
Pacific time and viewers will have an opportunity to have their
questions answered during the broadcast. For program details and
registration information, go to: "http://ext.wsu.edu/noas/"

--






From - Sat Mar 01 00:21:00 2003
X-UIDL: 345832914
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A1C5149700E0; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 16:16:53 -0500
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.13) id A1BE118B021C; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 16:16:46 -0500
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0000D8EB@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 16:17:37 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 18729 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Fri, 28 Feb 2003 16:17:36 -0500
Received: from hotmail.com (f110.law15.hotmail.com) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu
          (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id
          <0.0000D8DB@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 16:17:36 -0500
Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri,
          28 Feb 2003 13:16:15 -0800
Received: from 152.1.121.213 by lw15fd.law15.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 28
          Feb 2003 21:16:12 GMT
X-Originating-IP: [152.1.121.213]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Feb 2003 21:16:15.0154 (UTC)
                       FILETIME=[A079F920:01C2DF6E]
Message-ID:  <F110b7YtUq3sKlsgUzX0001f387@hotmail.com>
Date:         Fri, 28 Feb 2003 16:16:12 -0500
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Joel Gruver <jgruv@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: LOW-TECH, HIGH-QUALITY ON-FARM COMPOST
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.235]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 345832914

Hello SANET folks,

The following fact sheet includes a nice discussion of the benefits of
having **both** anaerobic and aerobic microorganisms active in composting
systems.

Joel

Joel Gruver
Dept of Soil Science
NC State University
jgruv@hotmail.com

http://www.uvm.edu/vtvegandberry/factsheets/compost.html

LOW-TECH, HIGH-QUALITY ON-FARM COMPOST
by Vern Grubinger
Vegetable and Berry Specialist
University of Vermont Extension
(Adapted from information presented at workshops by Dr. Will Brinton, Woods
End Lab, Mt. Vernon, Maine.)

Anywhere you go, there are waste products that are totally useless in
farming that can be made into a useful product if proper compost recipes are
developed. Some of these materials are more challenging than others, such as
fish or paper mill waste, while others are easier to compost, like dairy or
poultry manure plus bedding. On-farm wastes and yard wastes tend to be
relatively free of contaminants compared to municipal wastes. With off-farm
wastes, total source separation that results in "clean" residues is
essential if the end-product is to be used in farming. Otherwise, a variety
of contaminants may accumulate in the farming system over time. Composting
for waste disposal and composting for production of a soil amendment can be
conflicting approaches.

A book that is helpful with compost recipe development, compost siting, and
compost marketing is On Farm Composting, available from the Northeast
Agricultural Engineering Service, Riley Robb Hall, Ithaca, NY 14853, as well
as from many Extension offices.

To succeed in making the highest quality compost with the least investment
of time and equipment, it is important to understand that there are 4
different groups of  microbes involved in composting. Obligate aerobes are
strict oxygen consumers that die off when oxygen is lacking. Facultative
anaerobes are versatile organisms that can be simultaneously aerobic and
anaerobic - in other words they adapt to the oxygen level of their
environment. Aero-tolerant anaerobes grown anaerobically in the presence of
oxygen - they don't use it but they can tolerate it. Obligate anaerobes are
limited to oxygen-free environments and die off if it is present.

All of these organisms have a contribution to make to the compost process -
there are no "good guys" and "bad guys". Contrary to popular belief, it is
not optimal to manage composting as an entirely aerobic process - obligate
anaerobes do not normally dominate until the end of the compost process
unless extreme measures are take to aerate the pile, such as frequent
turning or forced ventilation, which are expensive and unnecessary. Obligate
anaerobes do generate heat, which is important if the compost ingredients
are unsanitary (ie sewage sludge), and they work fast, which is helpful if
you are in a rush for compost. But the facultative anaerobes are just as
important to on-farm composting, because they function at lower oxygen
levels, minimizing the need for manipulating the pile, and they are also
responsible for generating the disease-suppressing abilities that have been
observed with certain composts.

Some degree of anaerobic respiration during composting is also advantageous
because it results in less loss of carbon than a fully aerobic process,
which in theory converts everything to the end products carbon dioxide and
water, although in practice a small amount of microbial biomass, or humus,
also results. Because anaerobic respiration results in the production of a
variety of end products such as organic acids and alcohol, the rapid loss of
carbon as CO2 is avoided, and there is greater opportunity for conversion of
the original carbon to humus.  Although the products of anaerobic
decomposition can be toxic to plants, as the compost process continues and
oxygen levels rise, aerobes will readily decompose these materials.

In other words, the extra metabolic steps that non-aerobic decomposition
contributes to the compost process leads to more microbial biomass and
byproducts to be generated, and these are the high molecular weight
compounds that comprise finished compost or humus. The result is that
carbon, and plant nutrients such as nitrogen, are more effectively recycled
than with highly aerobic, "clean-burning" composting.

All of the microbes required for a healthy compost process are already
present in most wastes that can be composted, and therefore the utility of
adding compost inoculant is limited. A notable exception can be food wastes,
which are often cooked (ie sterilized). In a study that examined the effect
of inoculants, added microbes could not subsequently be found in dairy
manure compost, apparently because the existing microbes excluded introduced
organisms.

The natural mix of organisms in compost makes the process very resilient to
varying environment is extremely low in oxygen for extended periods of time,
the result can be strong odors, a slow process, and the accumulation of
phytotoxic compounds. To avoid this situation without having to turn
frequently, compost piles should be built so that they are self-aerating.
This is accomplished by using materials with sufficient porosity, managing
moisture content to avoid soaking, and keeping windrows small enough to
avoid internal compaction. Then, the natural oxygen demand of the compost
process will assure a steady, low level of oxygen as it diffuses into the
windrow to replace the oxygen that is consumed by the microbes.

Although most farmer-composters do not monitor the oxygen levels of their
windrows, it is instructive to understand how these levels vary during the
compost process. Immediately after raw materials are mixed together, the
oxygen levels in compost are just below the ambient (outdoor) level of 22%
but drop off very rapidly as aerobic decomposition takes off. The process
soon shifts to a mixture of aerobic and anaerobic decomposition as oxygen
levels drop down and then fluctuates between about 2% and 5%, which is a
healthy range for facultative anaerobes. This level can be naturally
maintained in a windrow with sufficient porosity. Toward the end of the
compost process, oxygen levels start to climb back up, nearing ambient once
the compost is mature and decomposition slows to a halt. That's because as
internal oxygen demand subsides, diffusion of oxygen into the pile can catch
up.

However, the porosity of a windrow tends to decrease as materials are
decomposed, and for a short period of time, when oxygen demand is still
high, a windrow may go excessively anaerobic until diffusion of oxygen can
catch up. In many cases the best thing is to leave the windrow alone until
it re-equilabrates. But if the pile is not porous enough, or its core is
wet, then diffusion may be too limited, requiring turning to aerate the
pile. The key is not to over-do it, because aggressive turning further
reduces the porosity by breaking down the aggregates or small clumps of
composting materials, increasing the need for subsequent turning. In other
words, the need for frequent turning becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

In conclusion, some turning is usually needed to facilitate the compost
process. The use of sufficient bulking material and low-impact turning
methods (like a bucket loader versus a compost turner) can allow a windrow
to remain self-aerating with a minimum of  turning.  At the outset, raw
materials with sufficient porosity must be mixed together to distribute
carbon, nitrogen, moisture, and oxygen evenly through the windrow. Then,
after the initial burst of decomposition and oxygen consumption, a gentle
turning can help keep the pile sufficiently aerated. Finally, as the process
nears completion, turning helps homogenize the finished compost and mixes in
materials on surface that have not been fully decomposed.

Windrow height, after settling, should be no more than 3 to 5 feet unless
large amounts of porous materials like straw are being composted, otherwise
the core will become compacted. Keeping the windrows small also avoids
high-heat conditions which encourage the loss of moisture. The windrows must
be kept moist with irrigation if necessary. If rains threaten to saturate
the windrows, they must be covered.

Under this type of low-tech, "minimum tillage" management system, dairy
manure or similar materials should compost to maturity in 4 to 5 months. The
cost to produce compost using a bucket loader to turn 3 times is about $7
per ton. Obviously this figure will vary depending on material and labor
costs.




_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail


From - Mon Mar 03 13:00:44 2003
X-UIDL: 345833109
X-Mozilla-Status: 0010
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A141DC017A; Mon, 03 Mar 2003 12:30:41 -0500
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.13) id A147393018E; Mon, 03 Mar 2003 12:30:47 -0500
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0000DDD5@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 12:32:01 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 19982 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 3 Mar 2003 12:32:01 -0500
Received: from hotmail.com (f60.law15.hotmail.com) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP
          for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0000DDD4@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>;
          Mon, 3 Mar 2003 12:32:01 -0500
Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon,
          3 Mar 2003 09:30:34 -0800
Received: from 152.1.121.213 by lw15fd.law15.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 03
          Mar 2003 17:30:33 GMT
X-Originating-IP: [152.1.121.213]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Mar 2003 17:30:34.0884 (UTC)
                       FILETIME=[9915FC40:01C2E1AA]
Message-ID:  <F60CVEEBkVVLyAGjFT400033d72@hotmail.com>
Date:         Mon, 3 Mar 2003 12:30:33 -0500
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Joel Gruver <jgruv@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: LOW-TECH, HIGH-QUALITY ON-FARM COMPOST
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.235]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 345833109

Hello Elaine,

Thanks for your thoughtful comments.

Perhaps I was rash in posting the fact sheet to SANET.
As I have already posted, I find some of the statements to be questionable.

I am familiar with much of the current literature on the formation of humic
substances. Humic acids and fulvic acids are artifacts of a purely chemical
alkali extraction process and are no longer investigated by most scientists
currently evaluating the ecological significance of organic matter.

The stability of OM in soil is the interactive effect of biochemical
recalcitrance, chemical interactions with mineral surfaces and physical
protection (within aggregates). Current research results suggest that
biochemical recalcitrance may the easiest hurdle for the soil food web to
overcome.

I appreciate your public acknowlegement of the ecological importance of
"aerobic, intermediate aerobic - anaerobic, and true anaerobic conditions"
in soils and compost.

Joel

Joel Gruver
Dept of Soil Science
NC State University
jgruv@hotmail.com



_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail


From - Mon Mar 03 11:20:57 2003
X-UIDL: 345833099
X-Mozilla-Status: 0010
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id AD2A23B100FE; Mon, 03 Mar 2003 11:04:58 -0500
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.13) id AD31E810210; Mon, 03 Mar 2003 11:05:05 -0500
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0000DD2D@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 11:06:20 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 19782 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 3 Mar 2003 11:06:20 -0500
Received: from imo-d08.mx.aol.com by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT
          v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0000DD2C@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Mon, 3 Mar 2003
          11:06:20 -0500
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-d08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.21.) id
          d.166.1ca79621 (15899) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Mon, 3 Mar
          2003 11:04:47 -0500 (EST)
Received: from  aol.com (mow-m09.webmail.aol.com [64.12.184.137]) by
          air-id09.mx.aol.com (v90_r2.5) with ESMTP id MAILINID92-0303110447;
          Mon, 03 Mar 2003 11:04:47 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID:  <2C8AC187.78A58D9C.404D8829@aol.com>
Date:         Mon, 3 Mar 2003 11:04:47 -0500
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: LOW-TECH, HIGH-QUALITY ON-FARM COMPOST
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.235]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 345833099

Hi Joel -

Please read some of the published work about how humic acid is produced.

I think we all agree that humic acids are very long-term carbon compounds.  Their half life is on the order of several hundred years.  There are several very good books on the subject of humic acid production.  Those books very clearly show that SOME humic acids are produced aerobically, SOME are produced in minimal oxygen conditions, and SOME are produced in low oxygen conditions.

For anyone to claim that high molecular weight compounds are only produced in anaerobic conditions is silly.  Any scientist should be able to see through that claim in a second.

Good compost has good aggregate structure, and the insides of aggregates can be anaerobic.  As shown by the pioneering work of Sexstone and Tiedje at Michigan State University quite some number of years ago, and by quite a number of other people since the time they published that work, the insides of such aggregates can have very low oxygen concentrations, as low as 1 or 2 ppm, or less.

Thus, good aerobic compost has anaerobic microsites.  BUT, as the anaerobic metabolites such as ammonia, hydrogen sulfide, acetic acid, putrescine, etc diffuse and volatilize out of the aggregates, they reach aerobic zones, where the plant toxic materials are converted to aerobic products.  When these anaerobic microsites are broken open, aerobic organisms re-colonize.  It is important for the diversity of foods in a good compost that BOTH aerobic and anaerobic organic material is present.  Diversity is the key.

In well-aggregated composts, N, S, P, etc, are not lost because the anaerobically produced materials are captured by the aerobic organisms before those gases leave the pile.  Look at the work by Malcolm Beck, for example.

In completely anaerobic material, fertility will be lost. N will be lost as the gas, ammonia.  S will be lost as the gas, hydrogen sulfide.  Both can easily be identified by the human nose.

If for no other reason, you can't allow your compost, compost tea, or soil to go anaerobic, because you lose the nutrients you are trying to conserve.  You lose the nutrients that will result in good plant production.

The maximum production of "soil glue" occurs in aerobic conditions.  Note the recent work on glomalin from the researchers at the USDA.  These materials are produced by mycorrhizal fungi.  Mycorrhizal fungi are STRICT aerobes.  They cannot tolerate anaerobic conditions.

Check the work of Dick Wiebe at Univ of Georgia.  Spartina is mycorrhizal when it grows outside the riparian zone, but is not colonized when it's roots are in anaerobic mud.  when your soil goes anaerobic, the mycorrhizal fungi are lost.  And thus we lose what the USDA is terming the most important binding material in the soil.  Do you think that is not high molecular weight material?  According to the USDA researchers, it is.

The people at the the University of Vermont who wrote those factsheets perhaps need to rely less on a single opinion.  Check things out before sending things like that out.

When we are working on the cutting edge of technology and science, and there is no scientific literature on a topic, we are faced with a different situation.  But there is quite a scientific literature on production of high molecular weight materials in soil.  Humic acid production has been reasonably well researched, although there is quite a bit more we would like to know.  To maximize the production of humic and fulvic acids, and other complex compounds, we want a mix of aerobic, intermediate aerobic - anaerobic, and true anaerobic conditions.

In 24 hour compost tea, we do not want that mix of conditions, because it is in anaerobic conditions that some quite toxic materials can be produced.  In anaerobic teas, you must allow a significant period of time for the truly toxic anaerobic by-products to be consumed in aerobic conditions before using the tea.

That's why anaerobic compost teas have such long brewing times.  They require two to three weeks before they can be used, because if you go anaerobic, and have Clostridium botulinum grow and produce toxin in the brew, you have to allow time to let that toxin decompose before you apply that tea.

There is a massive difference in the metabolic products  produced in aerobic versus anaerobic teas, I'll stand side-by-side with Wil Brinton in saying that.

BUT, the reason I don't recommend anaerobic tea is for the reason that many anaerobic by-products are deadly toxins.  If you don't understand what you are doing, brewing an anaerobic tea can be really bad news.

Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
SFI Corvallis, OR
SFI Port Jefferson, NY
SFI Lismore, NSW, Australia
SFI Hilversum, The Netherlands
SFI Cambridge, New Zealand
www.soilfoodweb.com


From - Sun Mar 02 12:31:46 2003
X-UIDL: 345833005
X-Mozilla-Status: 0010
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A9BA402A0136; Sun, 02 Mar 2003 09:48:26 -0500
Received: from happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu [152.2.210.119] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.13) id A9C07A64014A; Sun, 02 Mar 2003 09:48:32 -0500
Received: from happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id D2AF5200CF; Sun,  2 Mar 2003 09:46:58 -0500 (EST)
Delivered-To: gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from smtp1.sentex.ca (smtp1.sentex.ca [199.212.134.4])
	by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1A07200CC
	for <gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org>;
	Sun,  2 Mar 2003 09:46:56 -0500 (EST)
Received: from granite.sentex.ca (ns.sentex.ca [199.212.134.1])
	by smtp1.sentex.ca (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h22EmM2N070008
	for <gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org>;
	Sun, 2 Mar 2003 09:48:22 -0500 (EST)
	(envelope-from tolenio@sentex.net)
Received: from sentex.net (p11b.clorine.sentex.ca [64.7.139.75])
	by granite.sentex.ca (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h22EmJ2t099987
	for <gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org>;
	Sun, 2 Mar 2003 09:48:19 -0500 (EST)
	(envelope-from tolenio@sentex.net)
Message-ID: <3E621907.3436AAFC@sentex.net>
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 09:45:28 -0500
From: Thomas Olenio <tolenio@sentex.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Garden Writers -- GWL -- The Garden Writers Forum <gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [GWL] Re: gardenwriters Digest, Vol 2, Issue 1
References: <20030301.154456.-252719.10.dcamp911@juno.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-BeenThere: gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1
Precedence: list
Reply-To: Garden Writers -- GWL -- The Garden Writers Forum <gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: Garden Writers -- GWL -- The Garden Writers Forum
	<gardenwriters.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/gardenwriters>,
	<mailto:gardenwriters-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/private/gardenwriters>
List-Post: <mailto:gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:gardenwriters-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/gardenwriters>,
	<mailto:gardenwriters-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
Sender: gardenwriters-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
Errors-To: gardenwriters-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Declude-Sender: gardenwriters-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [152.2.210.119]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 345833005

Hello,

In research, VAM mycorrhizal is pot cultured using leeks as its host, it will
not survive in agar.  Inoculation can be accomplished with spores or broken
root segments.

Do the temperatures produced by properly managed composts piles destroy the
mycorrhizal segments/spores I do not know.  Having observed my working
(heating) compost piles, fungi are rare.  However, finished compost is a good
medium for fungi.

The easiest thing to do is to buy a leek from the grocer, inoculate it's root
zone with VAM mycorrhiza and replant it in a pot.  To inoculate new plants
simply remove the leek from it's pot, cut soil/roots from the plant add new
soil and repot.  You then can use the removed soil to inoculate other plants.

The leek will have to be cut back to increase longevity.

More info...
http://invam.caf.wvu.edu/Articles/culturing.htm

Tom



Duane Campbell wrote:

> On Sat, 1 Mar 2003 09:00:15 -0600 "Jeff Lowenfels" <jeff@gardener.com>
> writes:
> > As garden writers we need to make sure folks start using mycorrhizal
> >
> >  fertilizer with numbers over 8 kills them off......
>
> Would you be kind enough to throw a couple more words into that sentence,
> Jeff, so I can figure out what it means?
>
> Question -- doesn't adding compost, especially leaf mold, to potting mix
> supply mycorrhizal fungi?
>
> D
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
> Only $9.95 per month!
> Visit www.juno.com
> _______________________________________________
> gardenwriters mailing list
> gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/gardenwriters
>
> GWL has searchable archives at:
> http://www.hort.net/lists/gardenwriters
>
> If you have photos for GWL, send them to gwlphotos@hort.net and they will
> show up at: http://www.hort.net/lists/gwlphotos

--

===
Canada plant hardiness zone 5b
Southwest Ontario
===


_______________________________________________
gardenwriters mailing list
gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/gardenwriters

GWL has searchable archives at:
http://www.hort.net/lists/gardenwriters

If you have photos for GWL, send them to gwlphotos@hort.net and they will
show up at: http://www.hort.net/lists/gwlphotos


From - Sun Mar 02 18:14:00 2003
X-UIDL: 345833045
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A0E647E10136; Sun, 02 Mar 2003 17:08:38 -0500
Received: from happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu [152.2.210.119] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.13) id A0E3FE702A6; Sun, 02 Mar 2003 17:08:35 -0500
Received: from happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id 5503120072; Sun,  2 Mar 2003 17:07:09 -0500 (EST)
Delivered-To: gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from ms-smtp-01.nyroc.rr.com (ms-smtp-01.nyroc.rr.com
	[24.92.226.148])
	by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 930EE20046
	for <gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org>;
	Sun,  2 Mar 2003 17:07:06 -0500 (EST)
Received: from hvc.rr.com (hvc-24-161-21-88.hvc.rr.com [24.161.21.88])
	h22M8Ub1005571	for <gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org>;
	Sun, 2 Mar 2003 17:08:30 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <3E6280DE.EE098E26@hvc.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 17:08:30 -0500
From: LEE REICH <lreich@hvc.rr.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; U; PPC)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Garden Writers -- GWL -- The Garden Writers Forum <gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [GWL] Re: gardenwriters Digest, Vol 2, Issue 1
References: <LOBBIGDNCBANPFIKCLBOIEIPDJAA.jeffball@starband.net>
	<003801c2e0e3$e50fa140$5184b542@oemcomputer>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
	x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-BeenThere: gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1
Precedence: list
Reply-To: lreich@hvc.rr.com,
	Garden Writers -- GWL -- The Garden Writers Forum <gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: Garden Writers -- GWL -- The Garden Writers Forum
	<gardenwriters.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/gardenwriters>,
	<mailto:gardenwriters-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/private/gardenwriters>
List-Post: <mailto:gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:gardenwriters-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/gardenwriters>,
	<mailto:gardenwriters-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
Sender: gardenwriters-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
Errors-To: gardenwriters-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Declude-Sender: gardenwriters-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [152.2.210.119]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 345833045

Do you have any references indicating that mycorrhizae aid in N nutrition?
Also, I believe that large amounts of P do not kill the fungi, but merely
suppress the development of mycorrhizae. Perhaps the plant chooses the easiest
route: using fertilizer P takes less energy than using P garnered by
mycorrhizae. After all, the fungi need to be fed, too, and use some of the
carbohydrates manufactured by the plants. I am not promoting fertilizer over
mycorrhizae. Nutrients gathered by mycorrhizae are more efficient to the planet
as a whole, not to mention being more "natural." I'd like your comments Doreen.

Doreen Howard wrote:

> Jeff Ball wrote:
> .  The question is where is the
> > web site that talks about the fertilizer issue?  I am assuming that the
> slow
> > release forms of fertilizer, synthetic or organic will not harm
> micorrhizae.
>
> Jeff,
> I've worked with mycorrhizae for 9 years and did a study for the USDA
> Research Station on it and heirloom tomatoes.  I'm a believer in the fungi.
> Here is site will give you info on the fertilizer issue:
>  www.bio-organics.com
> It's a commercial site, but the principles know their stuff.
>
> Dumping large amounts of phosphorous and nitrogen into the soil will kill
> mycorrhizae.  Their hypae are very adept at mining the stuff and trace
> elements from the soil.  That said, mycorrhizae do need some nutrition.  Use
> gradual release sources of N-P-K.  Most take that to be compost and other
> organic matter.  Fish meal pellets are a commercial fertilizer in the
> organic realm that work well with mycorrhizae, as does alfalfa meal and
> cotton seed meal.  I even use Osmocote with success at half the amount
> suggested on the carton.  The trick is to provide small amounts.
> Doreen Howard
>
> _______________________________________________
> gardenwriters mailing list
> gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/gardenwriters
>
> GWL has searchable archives at:
> http://www.hort.net/lists/gardenwriters
>
> If you have photos for GWL, send them to gwlphotos@hort.net and they will
> show up at: http://www.hort.net/lists/gwlphotos

_______________________________________________
gardenwriters mailing list
gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/gardenwriters

GWL has searchable archives at:
http://www.hort.net/lists/gardenwriters

If you have photos for GWL, send them to gwlphotos@hort.net and they will
show up at: http://www.hort.net/lists/gwlphotos


From - Sun Mar 02 12:31:48 2003
X-UIDL: 345833020
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A9941B350120; Sun, 02 Mar 2003 12:04:20 -0500
Received: from happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu [152.2.210.119] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.13) id A99C79B0298; Sun, 02 Mar 2003 12:04:28 -0500
Received: from happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id B06DF200FA; Sun,  2 Mar 2003 12:02:52 -0500 (EST)
Delivered-To: gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from ms-smtp-03.nyroc.rr.com (ms-smtp-03.nyroc.rr.com
	[24.92.226.153])
	by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA077200F1
	for <gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org>;
	Sun,  2 Mar 2003 12:01:41 -0500 (EST)
Received: from hvc.rr.com (hvc-24-161-21-88.hvc.rr.com [24.161.21.88])
	h22H34bF015050	for <gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org>;
	Sun, 2 Mar 2003 12:03:04 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <3E623949.DD6791D2@hvc.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 12:03:06 -0500
From: LEE REICH <lreich@hvc.rr.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; U; PPC)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Garden Writers -- GWL -- The Garden Writers Forum <gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [GWL] Re: gardenwriters Digest, Vol 2, Issue 1
References: <LOBBIGDNCBANPFIKCLBOIEIPDJAA.jeffball@starband.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
	x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-BeenThere: gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1
Precedence: list
Reply-To: lreich@hvc.rr.com,
	Garden Writers -- GWL -- The Garden Writers Forum <gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: Garden Writers -- GWL -- The Garden Writers Forum
	<gardenwriters.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/gardenwriters>,
	<mailto:gardenwriters-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/private/gardenwriters>
List-Post: <mailto:gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:gardenwriters-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/gardenwriters>,
	<mailto:gardenwriters-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
Sender: gardenwriters-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
Errors-To: gardenwriters-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Declude-Sender: gardenwriters-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [152.2.210.119]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 345833020

The main effect of fertilizers on the mycorrhizal association is similar to the
effect of N fertilizer on the rhizobium symbiosis of legumes. The major
nutrient benefit of mycorrhiza is in improved P nutrition, because P moves very
little in the soil so roots garner it by root interception and the fungal
threads act essentially as extensions to the roots. Phosphorus fertilization
suppresses the symbiosis. There are sometimes other benefits from mycorrhizae
also, such as disease reduction and improved tolerance to water stress. But, as
I mentioned previously, mycorrhizae are ubiquitous: you'd have a lot more
trouble finding a nonmycorrhizal plant than a mycorrhizal plant, under
cultivation or in the wild. Interestingly, some families, such as the cabbage
family, never form mycorrhizal associations.

Lee Reich, PhD


Jeff Ball wrote:

> Jeff,
> I'm working on a book dealing with trees and am pushing the use of
> mycorrhizae in the planting process.  I was not aware that quick acting
> fertilizers harm those root fungi, but I am not surprised.  They kill lots
> of other microbes and repel worms for weeks.  The question is where is the
> web site that talks about the fertilizer issue?  I am assuming that the slow
> release forms of fertilizer, synthetic or organic will not harm micorrhizae.
> Thanks
> Jeff Ball
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gardenwriters-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
> [mailto:gardenwriters-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org]On Behalf Of Jeff Lowenfels
> Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 2:42 PM
> To: Garden Writers -- GWL -- The Garden Writers Forum
> Subject: Re: [GWL] Re: gardenwriters Digest, Vol 2, Issue 1
>
> Sorry, for the unclearness.
>
> Ninety percent of plants --o.k. some say 70 or 80%, form a mycorrhizal
> relationship and most  "Yardeners" have no idea what a mycorrhizal fungus is
> nonetheless understands how to garden with them.
>
> Nurseries have taken the lead in using mycorrhizal fungi in their
> products.They do so because they work. These are now available for home use
> but who in your "readership" has really ever even heard of mycorrhizal
> fungi? It is my belief garden writers fill the role of passing on to home
> gardeners the "instructions" and the reasons "why" they might want to use
> them. There are some great websites to start if you want more information.
> Just contact me off list.
>
> One of the problems is that fungi are fragile and salt based fertilizers
> conflict. I am not sure how our fertilizer industry brethren will react to
> any hoopla about mychorrizal because there is an incompatibility between an
> existing industry and a new one.
>
> That is what I meant to say. May be something about B-1 not working, though
> many garden writers push it, but that is all!
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jeff L
>
> _______________________________________________
> gardenwriters mailing list
> gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/gardenwriters
>
> GWL has searchable archives at:
> http://www.hort.net/lists/gardenwriters
>
> If you have photos for GWL, send them to gwlphotos@hort.net and they will
> show up at: http://www.hort.net/lists/gwlphotos
>
> _______________________________________________
> gardenwriters mailing list
> gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/gardenwriters
>
> GWL has searchable archives at:
> http://www.hort.net/lists/gardenwriters
>
> If you have photos for GWL, send them to gwlphotos@hort.net and they will
> show up at: http://www.hort.net/lists/gwlphotos

_______________________________________________
gardenwriters mailing list
gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/gardenwriters

GWL has searchable archives at:
http://www.hort.net/lists/gardenwriters

If you have photos for GWL, send them to gwlphotos@hort.net and they will
show up at: http://www.hort.net/lists/gwlphotos


From - Sun Mar 02 00:04:33 2003
X-UIDL: 345832986
X-Mozilla-Status: 0010
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id AAF928E3011C; Sat, 01 Mar 2003 21:22:49 -0500
Received: from happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu [152.2.210.119] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.13) id AAF8658B0148; Sat, 01 Mar 2003 21:22:48 -0500
Received: from happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id 8273B2009B; Sat,  1 Mar 2003 21:21:21 -0500 (EST)
Delivered-To: gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from ms-smtp-02.nyroc.rr.com (ms-smtp-02.nyroc.rr.com
	[24.92.226.49])
	by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B0E120096
	for <gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org>;
	Sat,  1 Mar 2003 21:21:18 -0500 (EST)
Received: from hvc.rr.com (hvc-24-161-21-88.hvc.rr.com [24.161.21.88])
	h222MfxF020603	for <gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org>;
	Sat, 1 Mar 2003 21:22:41 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <3E616AF4.12890DA7@hvc.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 21:22:45 -0500
From: LEE REICH <lreich@hvc.rr.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; U; PPC)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Garden Writers -- GWL -- The Garden Writers Forum <gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [GWL] Re: gardenwriters Digest, Vol 2, Issue 1
References: <3d.2cabea5d.2b92767b@aol.com>
	<016701c2e043$b713bd30$ee903a42@jeffu9jv0ylyde>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
	x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-BeenThere: gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1
Precedence: list
Reply-To: lreich@hvc.rr.com,
	Garden Writers -- GWL -- The Garden Writers Forum <gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: Garden Writers -- GWL -- The Garden Writers Forum
	<gardenwriters.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/gardenwriters>,
	<mailto:gardenwriters-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/private/gardenwriters>
List-Post: <mailto:gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:gardenwriters-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/gardenwriters>,
	<mailto:gardenwriters-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
Sender: gardenwriters-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
Errors-To: gardenwriters-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Declude-Sender: gardenwriters-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [152.2.210.119]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 345832986

I did some research into mycorrhiza as part of my doctoral thesis, and while I
never cease to wonder at the beauty of this symbiosis, I object to its
commercialization. Mycorrhiza are ubiqutious. True, they can be wiped out under
certain extreme conditions, but even then they'll frequently recolonize
themselves. Most of the time, innoculation is a waste of money.

Lee Reich, PhD

Jeff Lowenfels wrote:

> Sorry, for the unclearness.
>
> Ninety percent of plants --o.k. some say 70 or 80%, form a mycorrhizal
> relationship and most  "Yardeners" have no idea what a mycorrhizal fungus is
> nonetheless understands how to garden with them.
>
> Nurseries have taken the lead in using mycorrhizal fungi in their
> products.They do so because they work. These are now available for home use
> but who in your "readership" has really ever even heard of mycorrhizal
> fungi? It is my belief garden writers fill the role of passing on to home
> gardeners the "instructions" and the reasons "why" they might want to use
> them. There are some great websites to start if you want more information.
> Just contact me off list.
>
> One of the problems is that fungi are fragile and salt based fertilizers
> conflict. I am not sure how our fertilizer industry brethren will react to
> any hoopla about mychorrizal because there is an incompatibility between an
> existing industry and a new one.
>
> That is what I meant to say. May be something about B-1 not working, though
> many garden writers push it, but that is all!
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jeff L
>
> _______________________________________________
> gardenwriters mailing list
> gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/gardenwriters
>
> GWL has searchable archives at:
> http://www.hort.net/lists/gardenwriters
>
> If you have photos for GWL, send them to gwlphotos@hort.net and they will
> show up at: http://www.hort.net/lists/gwlphotos

_______________________________________________
gardenwriters mailing list
gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/gardenwriters

GWL has searchable archives at:
http://www.hort.net/lists/gardenwriters

If you have photos for GWL, send them to gwlphotos@hort.net and they will
show up at: http://www.hort.net/lists/gwlphotos


From - Wed Mar 19 00:28:17 2003
X-UIDL: 347344047
X-Mozilla-Status: 0000
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A153C9FF00BE; Tue, 18 Mar 2003 17:44:35 -0500
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.13) id A1504CCB024A; Tue, 18 Mar 2003 17:44:32 -0500
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.000102AF@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Tue, 18 Mar 2003 17:46:23 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 13116 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Tue, 18 Mar 2003 17:46:22 -0500
Received: from pony.its.uwo.ca by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT
          v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.000102AE@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Tue, 18 Mar 2003
          17:46:22 -0500
Received: from femail.its.uwo.ca (hurdle.its.uwo.ca [129.100.2.108]) by
          pony.its.uwo.ca (8.12.8/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h2IMiRb6003452 for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Tue, 18 Mar 2003 17:44:27 -0500 (EST)
Received: from localhost (blimp.its.uwo.ca [129.100.3.140]) by
          femail.its.uwo.ca (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2IMiQij026780 for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Tue, 18 Mar 2003 17:44:26 -0500 (EST)
Received: from 65.93.67.94 ( [65.93.67.94]) as user jcummins@imap.uwo.ca by
          mail.uwo.ca with HTTP; Tue, 18 Mar 2003 17:44:26 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.1
X-Originating-IP: 65.93.67.94
Message-ID:  <1048027466.3e77a14a10adf@mail.uwo.ca>
Date:         Tue, 18 Mar 2003 17:44:26 -0500
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         jcummins@UWO.CA
Subject: survival of E coli 0157 in manure
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.235]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347344047

The article below provides valuable information on survival of pathogens
including E coli 0157 in manure. The article should put to rest the false claim
that organic produce is contaminated with the pathogen from use of manure
fertilizer. The article notes that compost is free of pathogens.
The article notes that Canada is the leading exporter of pork. That may be
related to lax regulation of manure release and to availability of GM corn and
GM soy for animal feeds because export markets are limited.

Journal of Environmental Quality 32:383-392 (2003)

REVIEWS AND ANALYSES

Pathogen Survival in Swine Manure Environments and Transmission of Human
Enteric Illness—A Review
Tat Yee Guan and Richard A. Holley

Received for publication May 14, 2002. The influence of zoonotic pathogens in
animal manure on human health and well-being as a direct or indirect cause of
human enteric illness is examined. Available international data are considered,
but the study is focused on the developing situation in western Canada, where
it is certain there will be further rapid growth in livestock numbers,
particularly hogs. Major pathogens considered are Escherichia coli O157:H7,
Salmonella, Campylobacter, Yersinia, Cryptosporidium, and Giardia. Canada is
now the leading exporter of pork internationally, but recent increases in
production contrast with constant domestic levels of pork consumption and
declining levels of foodborne illness caused by pork. Effects of increased
levels of manure production are not quantifiable in terms of effects on human
health. The presence of major pathogens in manure and movement to human food
sources and water are considered on the basis of available data. Survival of
the organisms in soil, manure, and water indicate significant variability in
resistance to environmental challenge that are characteristic of the organisms
themselves. Generally, pathogens survived longer in environmental samples at
cool temperatures but differences were seen in liquid and solid manure. Based
on actual data plus some data extrapolated from cattle manure environments,
holding manure at 25°C for 90 d will render it free from the pathogens
considered above.


From - Thu Mar 27 00:40:20 2003
X-UIDL: 347344514
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A4401A1C00C2; Wed, 26 Mar 2003 22:47:12 -0500
Received: from happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu [152.2.210.119])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38B10173F08
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Wed, 26 Mar 2003 22:48:17 -0500 (EST)
Received: from happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id BC65920042; Wed, 26 Mar 2003 22:46:50 -0500 (EST)
Delivered-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from smtp.intrex.net (smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250])
	by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 259932001F
	for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>;
	Wed, 26 Mar 2003 22:46:48 -0500 (EST)
Received: from intrex.net [209.42.230.72] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.13) id A42C34201F8; Wed, 26 Mar 2003 22:46:52 -0500
Message-ID: <3E82A11A.9040509@intrex.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 22:58:34 -0800
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
Organization: http://market-farming.com  --  Venaura Farm
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US;
	rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Sheet Mulch
References: <MCBBIEAEFKEGKKIAPGMNCEAOCCAA.ktopek@houston.rr.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Declude-Sender: lfl@intrex.net [209.42.230.72]
X-BeenThere: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1
Precedence: list
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: permaculture <permaculture.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
	<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture>
List-Post: <mailto:permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
	<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
Sender: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
Errors-To: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347344514

Kevin email wrote:
> Guess I need to have my say too. I have also opted for sheet mulching as my
> primary method of fertilization. If it is thick and has received moisture in
> the last 100 days, the soil interface zone is moist. There is no nitrogen
> tie up (or bondage) if there is a humus layer between the carbonaceous mulch
> and the soil proper. Moisture is necessary to get the humus developed from
> the sheet mulch over several months if bare dirt is the original substrate.
> Inoculate the sheet mulch with composting green waste or animal manures. I
> use my chicken made compost/mulch or bunny poop. The extra bacteria are what
> does the trick. It also encourages fungi and slime molds. Once there is a
> healthy biological community established, water will be retained by all the
> mucilaginous exudates. I think glomalin my be the largest water sink, but
> this is only conjecture on my part. I hope I have not been too repetitive,
> but remember: Mulch, moisten and inoculate, then wait.

On glomalin; results of a Google search:

http://www.nps.ars.usda.gov/menu.htm?newsid=2098
STORY LEAD: Glomalin: The Real Soil Builder
___________________________________________

ARS News Service Agricultural Research Service, USDA Don Comis, (301) 504-1625, comis@ars.usda.gov February 5, 2003 
___________________________________________

"An Agricultural Research Service scientist now has more proof that she has found a key ingredient responsible for the well-known benefits 
of soil organic matter.

Sara F. Wright, a soil scientist with the ARS Sustainable Agricultural Systems Laboratory in Beltsville, Md., discovered glomalin in 1996 
and named the substance after Glomales, the taxonomic order of the fungi that produce the sticky protein. Recently, she used a nuclear 
magnetic resonance imager to show that glomalin is structurally different from any other organic matter component, proving it is a distinct 
entity.

The fungi live on most plant roots and use the plants' carbon to produce glomalin. Glomalin is thought to seal and solidify the outside of 
the fungi's pipelike filaments that transport water and nutrients to plants.

As the roots grow, glomalin sloughs off into the soil where it acts as a "super glue," helping sand, silt and clay particles stick to each 
other and to the organic matter that brings soil to life. It is glomalin that helps give good soil its feel, as smooth clumps of the 
glued-together particles and organic matter flow through an experienced gardener's or farmer's hands.

Glomalin was long lost in humus, the organic matter that is often called "black gold." When it did turn up in humus measurements, it was 
thought to be a contaminant.

Glomalin is not just the glue that holds humus to soil particles, it actually does much of what humus has been credited with. Because there 
is so much more glomalin in the soil than humic acid, an extractable fraction of humus, glomalin stores 27 percent of total soil carbon, 
compared to humic acid's eight percent. It also provides nitrogen to soil and gives it the structure needed to hold water and for proper 
aeration, movement of plant roots and stability to resist erosion."

ARS is the U.S. Department of Agriculture's chief scientific research agency.
<>
http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/sep02/soil0902.htm
Glomalin: Hiding Place for a Third of the World's Stored Soil Carbon

"A sticky protein seems to be the unsung hero of soil carbon storage.

Until its discovery in 1996 by ARS soil scientist Sara F. Wright, this soil "super glue" was mistaken for an unidentifiable constituent of 
soil organic matter. Rather, it permeates organic matter, binding it to silt, sand, and clay particles. Not only does glomalin contain 30 to 
40 percent carbon, but it also forms clumps of soil granules called aggregates. These add structure to soil and keep other stored soil 
carbon from escaping.

As a glycoprotein, glomalin stores carbon in both its protein and carbohydrate (glucose or sugar) subunits. Wright, who is with the 
Sustainable Agricultural Systems Laboratory in Beltsville, Maryland, thinks the glomalin molecule is a clump of small glycoproteins with 
iron and other ions attached. She found that glomalin contains from 1 to 9 percent tightly bound iron."
<>
http://biology.umt.edu/fungus/glomalin.htm
Glomalin research

<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>

I remember something about chitin and that it exists, maybe in great quantities, in farm soils. Perhaps it is also a water sink.

a Google search produced this info on chitin:
- http://www.psrc.usm.edu/macrog/sea/chitin.htm
"Chitin is a complex molecule, AKA a polymer. Chitin can be found in crustaceans, such as crabs, lobsters, and shrimp. It can also be found 
in insects, worms, and fungus, or mushrooms. The thing about chitin is that it is a natural polymer, which means that it is found in nature.

In the creatures where chitin is found, it is in different percentages depending on the place. As you can see from the chart of all the 
creatures, crabs contain the largest percentage of chitin. (Muzzarelli: All numbers are approximate)

Fungi 5-20%
Worms 20-38%
Squids/Octopus 3-20%
Scorpions 30%
Spiders 38%
Cockroaches 35%
Water Beetle 37%
Silk Worm 44%
Hermit Crab 69%
Edible Crab 70%

The structure of chitin is very similar to cellulose"
<>
http://www.uni-ulm.de/biologie1/Forschung/Chitin/chitine.html
"Chitin is the second most abundant polysaccharide in nature (after cellulose). At least 10 gigatons of chitin are synthesised and degraded 
each year in the biosphere. Chitin mainly consists of the aminosugar N-acetylglucosamine, which is partially deacetylated. The mostly 
deacetylated form of chitin is called chitosan. Chitin is present in nature usually complexed with other polysaccharides and with proteins. 
Chitin is a renewable resource and is isolated from crab and shrimp waste. It is used for waste water clearing, for cosmetics and for 
medical and verterinary applications."
<>
- http://wywy.essortment.com/whatischitin_rkkh.htm
"Chitin is a polymer that can be found in anything from the shells of beetles to webs of spiders. It is present all around us, in plant and 
animal creatures. It is sometimes considered to be a spinoff of cellulose, because the two are very molecularly similar. Cellulose contains 
a hydroxy group, and chitin contains acetamide. Chitin is unusual because it is a "natural polymer," or a combination of elements that 
exists naturally on earth. Usually, polymers are man-made. Crabs, beetles, worms and mushrooms contain large amount of chitin.

Chitin is a very adaptive material for a creature. Insects and animals with chitin coats usually shed these coats, or molt, at least once a 
year. Chitin is a very firm material, and it help protect an insect against harm and pressure. Depending on its thickness, chitin can be 
rigid or yielding. Often, insect coats contain thick, stiff layers of chitin. The areas around legs and face contain very thin, pliable layers.

In addition to being a naturally-occurring molecule, chitin is also notable for the process in which it is broken down. Because many sea 
creatures shed shells of this material every year, one would expect the ocean to be full of chitin. This is not so. There are tiny bacteria 
in the ocean that can sense small chains of sugars sent from a discarded chitin shell. Once these bacteria (Vibrio furnisii) have determined 
that they have found a shell, they begin to create enzymes that can be used to break down the shell. In a series of nine steps, these 
bacteria reduce chitin to chains of simple sugars and ammonia. The implications that this holds are great. Using this process, scientists 
may be able to trigger breakdown and responses in other materials besides chitin. They may also be able to trigger an immune responses in 
plants, using the molecules that chitin releases when shed.

A spinoff of chitin that has been discovered by the market is chitosan. This is a man-made molecule that is often used to dye shirts and 
jeans in the clothing industry. Chitosan is formed by a process called "N-deacylation." Chitosan can be used within the human body to 
regulate diet programs, and researchers are looking into ways in which it can sure diseases. Chitin and Chitosan are only slightly different 
on a molecular level. Chitosan contains an amine group, or a group without carbons bonded to oxygen, whereas chitin contains an amide group, 
where this is the case.

Chitin itself is the subject of exciting medical experiments. When applied to human wounds and surgical cloths, it accelerates the skin 
healing process. An acidic mixture of chitin, when applied to burns, also accelerates the healing process. Left on for a few days, it can 
heal a third-degree bun completely. It has been shown to support the immune system during certain kinds of illness-blocking procedures. 
Chitosan, chitin's spinoff, has been known to aid plants' immune systems while they are growing. When placed on a seed, it induces 
protective measured within the growing plant."
<>
http://www.ilmyco.gen.chicago.il.us/ima/Terms/chiti668.html
"In the wild world where multi-cellular creatures first began to evolve, plants were the first to break away from the herd and start to 
become something distinct. Fungi and animals seem to have continued together for a while before diverging into their present distinct 
states. One consequence of this is that although fungi have cell walls, like plants, so they don't need a skeleton to support themselves, 
their cell walls are made of chitins, the same class of compounds that compose the exoskeletons of insects and crustaceans.

Chitins are polymers of glucosamine, with an acetyl group attached to a variable number of the individual glucosamine molecules (making them 
acetylglucosamine). A polymer composed totally of acetylglucosamine is called chitin, and one composed totally of glucosamine is called 
chitosan. These polymers and those made up of a mixture of glucosamine and acetylglucosamine are known collectively as glucoaminoglycans."
<>


-- 
L.F.London
lfl@intrex.net
http://market-farming.com
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech


_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture


From - Wed Apr 09 11:03:58 2003
X-UIDL: 347345257
X-Mozilla-Status: 0010
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id AD25EAC90040; Wed, 09 Apr 2003 06:59:49 -0400
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (lists.sare.org [128.227.242.235])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7996174026
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Wed,  9 Apr 2003 07:02:40 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0001407E@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 6:50:08 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 14158 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Wed, 9 Apr 2003 06:50:08 -0400
Received: from hotmail.com (f96.pav2.hotmail.com) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP
          for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0001407D@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>;
          Wed, 9 Apr 2003 6:50:08 -0400
Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed,
          9 Apr 2003 03:58:38 -0700
Received: from 203.168.19.12 by pv2fd.pav2.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 09
          Apr 2003 10:58:38 GMT
X-Originating-IP: [203.168.19.12]
X-Originating-Email: [gil_carandang@hotmail.com]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Apr 2003 10:58:38.0325 (UTC)
                       FILETIME=[F9689A50:01C2FE86]
Message-ID:  <F96mQSlmZLKOlnEn1PQ0001c011@hotmail.com>
Date:         Wed, 9 Apr 2003 10:58:38 +0000
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: gil carandang <gil_carandang@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Second Call for Papers: Low-Food-Chain Candidate Species Organic
         Aquaculture Workshop and Organic Seafood Tasting Tour
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347345257

Hi!
If I send an abstract for the organic aquaculture and got chosen, several
questions:
1) Who shall pay for my rt ticket from the Philippines?2) Who shall cover
for the board and lodging and local transfers?

I recently conducted a workshop on indigenous microorganism at the Ecofarm
Conference in Asilomar (Monterey, California).  I have a technology that
will empower organic farmers in the culture of their important agri-aqua
inputs.  The technology will improve water quality and nutrient intake of
fish.

Let me know, and I will be interested to submit an abstract if you can cover
for my expenses and allowing me to sell my booklet at the conference.

Thanks,
Gil Carandang
Herbana Farms
Philippines






>From: "Andy Clark, SAN Coordinator" <san@SARE.ORG>
>Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
><SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
>To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
>Subject: [SANET-MG] Second Call for Papers: Low-Food-Chain Candidate
>Species         Organic Aquaculture Workshop and Organic Seafood Tasting
>Tour
>Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 14:31:08 -0400
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Deborah J. Brister [mailto:djb@fw.umn.edu]
>Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 1:04 PM
>
>The Institute for Social, Economic and Ecological Sustainability
>Announces a Second Call for Papers
>
>Call for Papers-Abstracts due April 15th, 2003
>
>International Organic Aquaculture Workshop and Organic Seafood Tasting
>Tour: Low-Food-Chain Candidate Species
>
>General Information
>We invite you to participate in an organic aquaculture workshop focusing
>on evaluating and prioritizing low-food-chain species that are promising
>candidates for sustainable, and especially organic, aquaculture
>production. This workshop will convene in Minneapolis, Minnesota, July
>11-12, 2003.  As the number of carnivorous species in culture increases,
>reliance on marine fisheries resources to feed cultured organisms has
>also increased. Despite improvements to the diets of aquaculture
>species, many scientists question the long-term sustainability of
>pelagic fisheries intended for fishmeal and oil. Researchers are now
>exploring options to replace fishmeal with plant-based ingredients.
>Vegetarian feeds for carnivorous species are, however, still in early
>stages and require additional research to ensure that these do not
>adversely affect the aquatic animal's physiology and ultimate taste of
>the final seafood product.
>
>The Institute for Social, Economic and Ecological Sustainability (ISEES)
>is approaching this issue differently by convening a workshop to
>identify and evaluate naturally herbivorous and other low-food-chain
>aquatic species that do not require fishmeal and oil. These species,
>many unknown to seafood consumers in the United States, are cultured in
>diverse environments throughout the globe and provide a sustainable
>alternative to consuming carnivorous species. Furthermore, organic
>certification of these species should be easier, due to the ability to
>completely bypass the issue of pelagic species feed sustainability.
>
>This workshop, sponsored by the David and Lucile Packard Foundation,
>Whole Foods Markets, Minnesota Sea Grant, the Culinary Program of the
>Art Institutes International and the University of Minnesota, builds on
>our first highly successful organic aquaculture workshop (held in 2000),
>which jump-started the most comprehensive dialog to date on organic
>aquaculture in the United States. The 2000 workshop report is on the
>ISEES website at
>www.fw.umn.edu/isees/OrganicAquaculture/Workshop/finalrep.pdf.
>
>Workshop attendees will represent experts and practitioners in
>aquaculture and fisheries science, seafood marketing, organic production
>and certification, environmental conservation, and restauranteurs and
>chefs, in addition to other parties interested in the movement towards
>more sustainable forms of aquaculture production. Guest speakers will
>discuss opportunities and constraints for candidate species in a plenary
>session, followed by extensive opportunities to discuss with experts a
>variety of species in smaller, more intimate settings. As a group,
>workshop attendees will then discuss and prioritize a set of candidate
>low-food-chain species using a set of criteria under development by the
>workshop advisory committee (see attached roster). The workshop written
>proceedings will include recommendations for priority research and
>demonstration projects that encourage organic production and
>certification of the most suitable species.
>
>Workshop attendees will also enjoy the first annual Organic Seafood
>Tasting Tour. This unique event, co-hosted by the Culinary Program of
>the Art Institutes International, will enable participants to sample
>candidate seafood species and enjoy a multi-course luncheon specially
>prepared by top local chefs and culinary students. Our master chefs will
>feature a number of candidate species discussed at the workshop making
>this an exceptional opportunity to explore new, sustainable
>possibilities for seafood markets.
>
>
>Call for Papers-Abstracts due April 15th, 2003
>
>In order to maximize the range of suitable aquatic animal species
>considered at this workshop, we invite oral presentations and posters on
>the state-of-the-art for production and marketing of low-food-chain
>species.
>
>Topics
>We invite authors to address as many of the following topics for a
>selected, or related group of species as possible. Topics include
>social, political, regulatory, economical, ecological opportunities and
>constraints for specific low-food-chain aquatic animals, production
>advancements such as domestication potential (for example, successful
>captive reproduction, time required to reach market size, degree of
>aggressive behavior, etc.), marketability of species (such as ease of
>processing and preparation, flesh quality after freezing, and cultural
>importance), and traits the animal possesses that may be considered
>hazardous (i.e., concern about nuisance species) if the aquatic animal
>is raised outside its native waters should be included, if known.
>
>We encourage submissions of abstracts addressing any cultured aquatic
>animals throughout all regions of the world that are considered
>low-food-chain species. Regarding finfish, this workshop will consider a
>species to be low-food-chain if it is rated as 3.0 or lower on the
>Fishbase trophic scale (www.fishbase.org). These species include
>planktivores, benthivores, insectivores, detritivores, herbivores and
>omnivores that require little to no fishmeal and oil in their diets.
>
>
>
>Presentations
>Oral presentations at the workshop will be 10 minutes long, plus
>discussion, during breakout sessions. Poster presentations are
>encouraged. Abstracts will be due April 15th, 2003.
>
>Format
>Abstracts for review are limited to 300 words. An electronic version is
>preferred. Please include your name, affiliation, mailing address,
>e-mail address telephone and whether you prefer to give an oral or
>poster presentation.
>
>Notification
>Authors will be notified by May 1st, 2003 regarding the status of their
>abstract.  Accepted abstracts will be included in a workshop packet that
>will be sent to all workshop participants prior to the workshop and will
>appear in the final proceedings.  Registration fees will be waived for
>all oral and poster presenters.
>
>Submit abstracts to:
>E-mail: Deborah Brister at: djb@fw.umn.edu
>or
>Mail disk and hardcopy to:
>Deborah Brister
>Institute for Social, Economic and Ecological Sustainability
>University of Minnesota
>186 McNeal Hall
>1985 Buford Avenue
>St. Paul, MN 55108-6142
>
>Abstracts are due April 15th, 2003.
>
>Questions
>Visit the ISEES website at: www.fw.umn.edu/isees or contact Deborah
>Brister by e-mail at: djb@fw.umn.edu or by phone: 612-624-7723.
>
>
>
>
>Deborah J. Brister
>Sustainable Aquaculture Program Manager
>Institute for Social, Economic and Ecological Sustainability (ISEES)
>University of Minnesota
>186 McNeal Hall
>1985 Buford Avenue
>St. Paul, MN  55108-6142 USA
>----------------------------------
>Phone: 612-624-7723
>Fax: 612-625-8153
>Web: www.fw.umn.edu/isees


_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus


From - Thu Apr 17 22:22:38 2003
X-UIDL: 347345604
X-Mozilla-Status: 0010
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A84322900A2; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 19:26:59 -0400
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (lists.sare.org [128.227.242.235])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32C1B17623B
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 17:16:48 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.000159D2@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 17:16:08 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 21768 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Thu, 17 Apr 2003 17:16:08 -0400
Received: from hotmail.com (bay7-f96.bay7.hotmail.com) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu
          (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id
          <0.000159D1@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 17:16:08 -0400
Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu,
          17 Apr 2003 14:16:07 -0700
Received: from 203.168.19.18 by by7fd.bay7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 17
          Apr 2003 21:16:06 GMT
X-Originating-IP: [203.168.19.18]
X-Originating-Email: [gil_carandang@hotmail.com]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Apr 2003 21:16:07.0382 (UTC)
                       FILETIME=[8FAC0F60:01C30526]
Message-ID:  <BAY7-F96VjCRGryWtII0000d78b@hotmail.com>
Date:         Thu, 17 Apr 2003 21:16:06 +0000
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: gil carandang <gil_carandang@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Writing opportunity
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347345604

Hi!
I am interested to promote and write manual in the use and culture of
beneficial microorganisms and bionutrients use in agriculture.  I did a
workshop on the subject at the Ecofarm Conference in Asilomar (Monterey,
California) last January and an in-depth training at Camp Joy Gardens in
Boulder Creek, California.  Currently, I have a booklet on the subject.

Let me know if I could be of help in empowering US farmers in this important
Asian technology of culturing beneficial indigenous microorganisms.

Thanks,
Gil Carandang
Herbana Farms
Philippines






>From: Jonathan von Ranson <commonfarm@CROCKER.COM>
>Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
><SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
>To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
>Subject: [SANET-MG] Writing opportunity
>Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 20:09:27 -0500
>
>Writing Opportunity on Organic Farming
>
>Two writer/farmers sought to write on organic farming practices this spring
>and summer for two separate 60-80-page manuals from Northeast Organic
>Farming Association and SARE, published by Chelsea Green:
>
>1) Crop Rotation and Cover Cropping on the Organic Farm
>2) Compost, Vermicompost & Compost Tea: Feeding the Soil on the Organic
>Farm.
>
>(NOTE: Other, future topics in series will be: marketing & community
>relations, egg and meat production, seed production & saving, and milk &
>dairy products. Manuals on weed management, soil fertility management,
>whole
>farm planning, and crop health are already published or in production.)
>
>Applicant must have strong organic farming background, writing experience
>and research skills and success meeting deadlines.
>
>First-draft manuscripts for this round due Aug. 20. Final draft due
>mid-November. Pay vicinity of $1,500 per manual.
>
>The deadline for applications is March 15. We will hire by March 20.
>
>Send a resume, samples, a brief outline of your ideas, and references to:
>
>Jonathan von Ranson, Coordinator
> > NOFA Organic Practices Manuals Project
> > 6 Lockes Village Rd.
> > Wendell MA 01379
> > 978 544-3758
> > E-Mail: commonfarm@crocker.com
>


_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus


From - Fri Apr 18 11:53:50 2003
X-UIDL: 347345619
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A7E46C400B4; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 04:31:32 -0400
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (lists.sare.org [128.227.242.235])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2122173F39
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 04:32:14 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00015A96@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 4:31:29 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 21976 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Fri, 18 Apr 2003 04:31:28 -0400
Received: from imo-m02.mx.aol.com by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT
          v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00015A95@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Fri, 18 Apr 2003
          4:31:28 -0400
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-m02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.21.) id
          d.137.1e4a7a01 (25711) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Fri, 18 Apr
          2003 04:31:23 -0400 (EDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="part1_137.1e4a7a01.2bd111da_boundary"
X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10503
Message-ID:  <137.1e4a7a01.2bd111da@aol.com>
Date:         Fri, 18 Apr 2003 04:31:22 EDT
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Till/noTill (was Composted cow manure/rice nutrientcycles)
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347345619

--part1_137.1e4a7a01.2bd111da_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi Mike -

I'm not an expert on tillage equipment.  The person you might want to direct
that questionto would be Shep Smith, soilsmith@aol.com

Compost tea  need sto be AERATED.  The reason so many people have had bad
experiences with "compost tea" is that the tea goes anaerobic during brewing.
 Anaerobic metabolites, unless
used up by brewing for three to four weeks, can harm your plants
significantly.

Get a tube diffuser the width of your tank, and place on the bottom of the
tank.  Bubble the air through (www.magicsoil.com shows how much air is
needed, but it's like 3.5 CFM in a 50 gal tank)

Put the compost in a cheap stocking, or laundry bag, about 10 pounds for a 50
gal machine.  Put 4 or 5 ping-pong balls or fish floats in the bag to keep it
floating on the surface.

Use a cup of BLACKSTRAP, food grade molasses, a cup of kelp (Acadian), room
temperature water with the chlorine aerated off to begin.

> Then, I'm now building a sprayer to rig onto my tractor with big nozzles.
> I'm (now don't laugh) going to start a large (50gal) batch of compost test
> from my backyard compost pile (basically built with kitchen scraps, hay
> waste, horse manure and starbucks coffee grounds).  Load it into a couple
> burlap sacks and soak it in an open 50 gal barrel (food grade).  Then mix a
> solution (what percentage??) of tea to spray the corn (and my garlic).
> Any input on this hokey method would be appreciated as well.
>
> Let me know if you think I'm washed.  But I guess in any event its better
> than washing it all down with synthetics ???  Even if it fails. I'm having
> fun trying.
>

Should work.

Hope this helps.

Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
www.soilfoodweb.com
SFI Oregon, USA
SFI Australia
SFI New York
SFI Europe
SFI New Zealand

"Hope is not a feeling. It is not the belief that things will turn out well,
but the conviction that what we are doing makes sense, no matter how things
turn out."   --  Vaclav Havel, former President of the Czech Republic


--part1_137.1e4a7a01.2bd111da_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SERIF" FACE=3D"=
Times New Roman" LANG=3D"0">Hi Mike - <BR>
<BR>
I'm not an expert on tillage equipment.&nbsp; The person you might want to d=
irect that questionto would be Shep Smith, soilsmith@aol.com <BR>
<BR>
Compost tea&nbsp; need sto be AERATED.&nbsp; The reason so many people have=20=
had bad experiences with "compost tea" is that the tea goes anaerobic during=
 brewing.&nbsp; Anaerobic metabolites, unless=20
used up by brewing for three to four weeks, can harm your plants significant=
ly. <BR>
<BR>
Get a tube diffuser the width of your tank, and place on the bottom of the t=
ank.&nbsp; Bubble the air through (www.magicsoil.com shows how much air is n=
eeded, but it's like 3.5 CFM in a 50 gal tank)<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
Put the compost in a cheap stocking, or laundry bag, about 10 pounds for a 5=
0 gal machine.&nbsp; Put 4 or 5 ping-pong balls or fish floats in the bag to=
 keep it floating on the surface.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Use a cup of BLACKSTRAP, food grade molasses, a cup of kelp (Acadian), room=20=
temperature water with the chlorine aerated off to begin. <BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Then, I'm now building a spraye=
r to rig onto my tractor with big nozzles.&nbsp; I'm (now don't laugh) going=
 to start a large (50gal) batch of compost test from my backyard compost pil=
e (basically built with kitchen scraps, hay waste, horse manure and starbuck=
s coffee grounds).&nbsp; Load it into a couple burlap sacks and soak it in a=
n open 50 gal barrel (food grade).&nbsp; Then mix a solution (what percentag=
e??) of tea to spray the corn (and my garlic).&nbsp;&nbsp; Any input on this=
 hokey method would be appreciated as well.<BR>
<BR>
Let me know if you think I'm washed.&nbsp; But I guess in any event its bett=
er than washing it all down with synthetics ???&nbsp; Even if it fails. I'm=20=
having fun trying.<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3=
 FAMILY=3D"SERIF" FACE=3D"Times New Roman" LANG=3D"0">Should work.<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3=
 FAMILY=3D"SERIF" FACE=3D"Times New Roman" LANG=3D"0">Hope this helps. <BR>
<BR>
Elaine Ingham<BR>
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.<BR>
www.soilfoodweb.com<BR>
SFI Oregon, USA<BR>
SFI Australia<BR>
SFI New York<BR>
SFI Europe<BR>
SFI New Zealand<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">"Hope is not a feeling. It i=
s not the belief that things will turn out well, but the conviction that wha=
t we are doing makes sense, no matter how things turn out."&nbsp;&nbsp; --&n=
bsp; Vaclav Havel, former President of the Czech Republic<BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_137.1e4a7a01.2bd111da_boundary--


From - Thu Apr 17 22:22:38 2003
X-UIDL: 347345604
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A84322900A2; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 19:26:59 -0400
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (lists.sare.org [128.227.242.235])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32C1B17623B
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 17:16:48 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.000159D2@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 17:16:08 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 21768 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Thu, 17 Apr 2003 17:16:08 -0400
Received: from hotmail.com (bay7-f96.bay7.hotmail.com) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu
          (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id
          <0.000159D1@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 17:16:08 -0400
Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu,
          17 Apr 2003 14:16:07 -0700
Received: from 203.168.19.18 by by7fd.bay7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 17
          Apr 2003 21:16:06 GMT
X-Originating-IP: [203.168.19.18]
X-Originating-Email: [gil_carandang@hotmail.com]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Apr 2003 21:16:07.0382 (UTC)
                       FILETIME=[8FAC0F60:01C30526]
Message-ID:  <BAY7-F96VjCRGryWtII0000d78b@hotmail.com>
Date:         Thu, 17 Apr 2003 21:16:06 +0000
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: gil carandang <gil_carandang@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Writing opportunity
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347345604

Hi!
I am interested to promote and write manual in the use and culture of
beneficial microorganisms and bionutrients use in agriculture.  I did a
workshop on the subject at the Ecofarm Conference in Asilomar (Monterey,
California) last January and an in-depth training at Camp Joy Gardens in
Boulder Creek, California.  Currently, I have a booklet on the subject.

Let me know if I could be of help in empowering US farmers in this important
Asian technology of culturing beneficial indigenous microorganisms.

Thanks,
Gil Carandang
Herbana Farms
Philippines






>From: Jonathan von Ranson <commonfarm@CROCKER.COM>
>Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
><SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
>To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
>Subject: [SANET-MG] Writing opportunity
>Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 20:09:27 -0500
>
>Writing Opportunity on Organic Farming
>
>Two writer/farmers sought to write on organic farming practices this spring
>and summer for two separate 60-80-page manuals from Northeast Organic
>Farming Association and SARE, published by Chelsea Green:
>
>1) Crop Rotation and Cover Cropping on the Organic Farm
>2) Compost, Vermicompost & Compost Tea: Feeding the Soil on the Organic
>Farm.
>
>(NOTE: Other, future topics in series will be: marketing & community
>relations, egg and meat production, seed production & saving, and milk &
>dairy products. Manuals on weed management, soil fertility management,
>whole
>farm planning, and crop health are already published or in production.)
>
>Applicant must have strong organic farming background, writing experience
>and research skills and success meeting deadlines.
>
>First-draft manuscripts for this round due Aug. 20. Final draft due
>mid-November. Pay vicinity of $1,500 per manual.
>
>The deadline for applications is March 15. We will hire by March 20.
>
>Send a resume, samples, a brief outline of your ideas, and references to:
>
>Jonathan von Ranson, Coordinator
> > NOFA Organic Practices Manuals Project
> > 6 Lockes Village Rd.
> > Wendell MA 01379
> > 978 544-3758
> > E-Mail: commonfarm@crocker.com
>


_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus


From - Sat Apr 19 01:52:09 2003
X-UIDL: 347345662
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id ACFC18D300BE; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 01:22:04 -0400
Received: by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix, from userid 1001)
	id 49A42B48C2; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 01:22:05 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (lists.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B82D4B48A0
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 01:22:04 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00015BF9@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 1:22:00 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 22386 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sat, 19 Apr 2003 01:22:00 -0400
Received: from hotmail.com (bay7-f23.bay7.hotmail.com) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu
          (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id
          <0.00015BF8@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 1:22:00 -0400
Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri,
          18 Apr 2003 22:21:59 -0700
Received: from 203.168.19.7 by by7fd.bay7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 19
          Apr 2003 05:21:58 GMT
X-Originating-IP: [203.168.19.7]
X-Originating-Email: [gil_carandang@hotmail.com]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Apr 2003 05:21:59.0292 (UTC)
                       FILETIME=[99FA43C0:01C30633]
Message-ID: <BAY7-F2360mJWEsBk3100000648@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 05:21:58 +0000
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: gil carandang <gil_carandang@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Till/noTill
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Spam-itxsa: 0
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347345662

hi elaine!
is there a way to find out what are the associations of vegetables of
different families like brassicas and solanaceous?  are they fungal or
bacterial?  and is there a way, naturally by simply observation that you
will find out whether the balance in the soil foodweb?  like when we see the
soil and smell earthy, it is more fungal in association, ya?  see poor
farmers do have the dough for soil tests and things of that nature.  a
working, guideline will be enough.
gil carandang
herbana farms
philippines






>From: Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
>Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
><SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
>To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
>Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] Till/noTill
>Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 17:45:18 EDT
>
>Hi Mike -
>
>I guess I always like to explain WHY things work.  If you don't understand
>why, then you can get confused and do things that aren't helpful.
>
>So, let's go back to the start - what is your purpose?  You turn weeds in
>to
>get rid of them.  Wouldn't it be better to not have those weeds in the
>first
>place?  If you keep tilling, tilling, tilling, you will keep having weeds,
>weeds, weeds.
>
>But did I just say to never till again?  No.  Don't leap to conclusions,
>read
>what I write.
>
>You till when you HAVE TO till.  So, if you have weeds right now, you till,
>and please till before the weeds go to seed.  But, now start doing the
>things
>necessary to make certain those weeds never come back.
>
>Those things are:  get a soil chemistry test done (you may have done this
>already.)  Look at the report.  Any nutrients not balanced correctly?  Go
>read Albrecht, Kinsey, and Arden Anderson's books.  Or chat with people who
>know those folks.  You have to balance Ca:Mg.  Balance PO4 and K.  The
>biology can't help you if you don't have the nutrients.
>
>But how do you hold onto those nutrients if you add them to the soil?  They
>just leach out again, if you don't have the right biology.  So, do a soil
>biology test.  What is lacking?  What is out of whack.  I can bet that your
>beneficial fungi are much too low.  That the active fungi are hurting.  The
>protozoa are not present in adequate numbers to cycle nutrients for you.
>You
>likely have root feeding nematodes.
>
>So, you have to fix those things.  Compost or compost tea are the only ways
>to add the things you are lacking.  If you wait for Mother Nature to bring
>those things back, you'll be playing with weeds for a long time.  Once you
>have the organisms back, you have to feed them properly.  Cover crops are
>good for doing this.  But please put in the right cover crop to feed the
>right organisms.
>
>Out of time---  heading to Lismore today, have to go have breakfast on the
>Beach!
>
>Hope this helps!
>
>Elaine Ingham
>President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
>www.soilfoodweb.com
>SFI Oregon, USA
>SFI Australia
>SFI New York
>SFI Europe
>SFI New Zealand
>
>"Hope is not a feeling. It is not the belief that things will turn out
>well,
>but the conviction that what we are doing makes sense, no matter how things
>turn out."   --  Vaclav Havel, former President of the Czech Republic
>


_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail


From - Sat Apr 19 02:34:09 2003
X-UIDL: 347345665
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A666180F0086; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 02:02:14 -0400
Received: by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix, from userid 1001)
	id 96416B4845; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 02:02:15 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4394FB481F
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 02:02:15 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00015C0E@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 2:02:11 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 22409 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sat, 19 Apr 2003 02:02:11 -0400
Received: from smtp1.us4.outblaze.com (205-158-62-78.outblaze.com) by
          lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id
          <0.00015C0D@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 2:02:11 -0400
Received: (qmail 20819 invoked from network); 19 Apr 2003 06:02:09 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO jeffu9jv0ylyde)
          (jeff:gardener.com?iname.com@66.58.144.238) by
          205-158-62-78.outblaze.com with SMTP; 19 Apr 2003 06:02:09 -0000
References: <BAY7-F2360mJWEsBk3100000648@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106
Message-ID: <002e01c30639$4adc9b20$ee903a42@jeffu9jv0ylyde>
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 22:02:42 -0800
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: Jeff Lowenfels <jeff@GARDENER.COM>
Subject: Re: fungal vs bacterial/ till no? No till?
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Spam-itxsa: -6.6
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347345665

Hi Gil,

You asked if there is any why to tell what a plant likes in terms of
bacterial vs. fungally dominated soils.

I am sure Dr. Elaine will give a better answer, but the way I remember it is
to think of where the plant I am trying to grow sits on a line of succession
from short growing season desert to grasses to prairie to deciduous woods to
hardwood forests to old growth conifers.

Annuals and row crops are at the bacterial end...things that take a short
time to grow and produce.

My understanding is that there  are "generally" the same numbers of bacteria
in healthy soils no matter where the soil is taken along the line. It is the
fungal numbers that change and increase as the system matures so that by the
time you get to old growth, you have very high fungal dominance. And, of
course, tilling decreases these numbers by killing the fragile, invisible
fungi in the soil so you are left with a higher ratio of bacteria after you
till.

And, if you can stand two more paragraphs, getting rid of fungus is why we
here in Alaska actually want to till gardens the first few years after they
are carved out of the black spruce forests that are our back yard.....our
soils are so fungal, it is hard to grow lots of annuals unless the soil is
turned..

Breccias, on the other hand, do well in our fungal soils. It is a kid's
hell. Broccoli, kohlrabi, Brussels sprouts.  You may have heard of the giant
100 pound cabbages. Of course, this may be more a factor of the cool
temperatures or their ability to attract bacteria regardless of fungal
numbers in the soil. This family of plants does not form mycorrhizal
relationships either.

You can tell my gardening engines are running, but spring has just now
arrived here. Sorry. And, please correct me, Dr. Elaine!

Cheers,

Jeff L


From - Sat Apr 19 12:38:18 2003
X-UIDL: 347345669
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A9C52D6100CE; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 10:14:29 -0400
Received: by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix, from userid 1001)
	id DC72BB4929; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 10:14:30 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (lists.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70969B4923
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 10:14:30 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00015C55@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 10:14:24 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 22498 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sat, 19 Apr 2003 10:14:24 -0400
Received: from hotmail.com (bay7-f29.bay7.hotmail.com) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu
          (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id
          <0.00015C54@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 10:14:23 -0400
Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat,
          19 Apr 2003 07:13:58 -0700
Received: from 203.168.19.14 by by7fd.bay7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 19
          Apr 2003 14:13:58 GMT
X-Originating-IP: [203.168.19.14]
X-Originating-Email: [gil_carandang@hotmail.com]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Apr 2003 14:13:58.0863 (UTC)
                       FILETIME=[EB8645F0:01C3067D]
Message-ID: <BAY7-F29jUHQHh2wLCV00001646@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 14:13:58 +0000
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: gil carandang <gil_carandang@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: fungal vs bacterial/ till no? No till?
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Spam-itxsa: 0
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347345669

jeff,
thanks for the information.  it is really of great help.  currently, we do a
lot of experimentations and observations on several vegetable families.  we
do our own microbial culture using lacto bacilli, forest and bamboo
microorganism.  apparently, the forest ones are much fungal and the bamboo
much bacterial.  lactic acid bacteria however is our main workhorse in
composting, digestion and arresting foul odors.  we do a lot of anaerobic
fermentation.  in fact, we ferment our materials first before we really
compost them.  we make special designer compost that includes several
diversed materials of which we inoculate with beneficial indigenous
microorganisms and add lots of bionutrients we normally extract from herbs.
our designer compost we add rice bran and rice hull charcoal aside from
microbes and bionutrients.  this compost is what we will start using for our
compost teas.  anaerobic to aerobic? well, let's see.
again, thanks. gil


>From: Jeff Lowenfels <jeff@GARDENER.COM>
>Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
><SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
>To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
>Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] fungal vs bacterial/ till no? No till?
>Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 22:02:42 -0800
>
>Hi Gil,
>
>You asked if there is any why to tell what a plant likes in terms of
>bacterial vs. fungally dominated soils.
>
>I am sure Dr. Elaine will give a better answer, but the way I remember it
>is
>to think of where the plant I am trying to grow sits on a line of
>succession
>from short growing season desert to grasses to prairie to deciduous woods
>to
>hardwood forests to old growth conifers.
>
>Annuals and row crops are at the bacterial end...things that take a short
>time to grow and produce.
>
>My understanding is that there  are "generally" the same numbers of
>bacteria
>in healthy soils no matter where the soil is taken along the line. It is
>the
>fungal numbers that change and increase as the system matures so that by
>the
>time you get to old growth, you have very high fungal dominance. And, of
>course, tilling decreases these numbers by killing the fragile, invisible
>fungi in the soil so you are left with a higher ratio of bacteria after you
>till.
>
>And, if you can stand two more paragraphs, getting rid of fungus is why we
>here in Alaska actually want to till gardens the first few years after they
>are carved out of the black spruce forests that are our back yard.....our
>soils are so fungal, it is hard to grow lots of annuals unless the soil is
>turned..
>
>Breccias, on the other hand, do well in our fungal soils. It is a kid's
>hell. Broccoli, kohlrabi, Brussels sprouts.  You may have heard of the
>giant
>100 pound cabbages. Of course, this may be more a factor of the cool
>temperatures or their ability to attract bacteria regardless of fungal
>numbers in the soil. This family of plants does not form mycorrhizal
>relationships either.
>
>You can tell my gardening engines are running, but spring has just now
>arrived here. Sorry. And, please correct me, Dr. Elaine!
>
>Cheers,
>
>Jeff L


_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail


From - Sun Dec 15 10:35:47 2002
X-UIDL: 322734139
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A25FAE100E2; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 01:34:07 -0500
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A245BE40210; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 01:33:41 -0500
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00002525@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; 15 Dec 2002 1:34:10 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 4526 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sun, 15 Dec 2002 01:34:10 -0500
Received: from smtp1.us4.outblaze.com (205-158-62-78.outblaze.com) by
          lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id
          <0.00002524@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; 15 Dec 2002 1:34:10 -0500
Received: (qmail 16893 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2002 06:33:34 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO jeffu9jv0ylyde)
          (jeff:gardener.com?iname.com@66.58.144.238) by
          205-158-62-78.outblaze.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2002 06:33:34 -0000
References:  <168.1894d729.2b2d7a67@aol.com>
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106
Message-ID:  <000a01c3c2bc$80acbbf0$ee903a42@jeffu9jv0ylyde>
Date:         Sun, 14 Dec 2003 21:35:34 -0600
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Jeff Lowenfels <jeff@GARDENER.COM>
Subject: Re: Beneficial Soil Microbes
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.235]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322734139
Status: U

David,

EM has a very limited set of organisms...under 100 and all of them
bacteria....no fungi.

 The compost I use to make tea has 35,000 different kinds of bacteria and
5,000 different kinds of fungi. This provides the diversity which EM cannot
do.  That is the big difference.

Cheers,

Jeff L

www.alaskahumus.com

.

From - Sat Apr 19 13:24:18 2003
X-UIDL: 347345679
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id AEDC3D4A00AA; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 12:52:44 -0400
Received: by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix, from userid 1001)
	id AAECCB4907; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 12:52:46 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD42CB4829
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 12:52:45 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00015C7D@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 12:52:38 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 22546 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sat, 19 Apr 2003 12:52:38 -0400
Received: from imo-d07.mx.aol.com by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT
          v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00015C7C@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sat, 19 Apr 2003
          12:52:38 -0400
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-d07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.21.) id
          d.1d5.7b9047a (15863) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sat, 19 Apr
          2003 12:52:30 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from  aol.com (mow-d17.webmail.aol.com [205.188.139.133]) by
          air-id06.mx.aol.com (v93.8) with ESMTP id MAILINID62-3df73ea17ece203;
          Sat, 19 Apr 2003 12:52:30 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <3C29BA49.123550FF.404D8829@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 12:52:30 -0400
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Till/noTill
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Spam-itxsa: -3.2
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347345679

Hi Gil!

Good to hear from you! Wish we would have had time to chat more at the meeting in Tulare.  I sure am interested in your microbial work, and wonder if you know of microbes specific for different conditions, especially sets of bacterial and fungal species specific for selecting against different weeds.

There are two ways to figure out the associations of different plants relative to Fungal to Bacterial ratios (F:B).  As you remember from my talk, the successional stage tells you some information about the F:B ratio.

For example, brassica belong in the early successional group of plants, at least based on everything we've looked at in the group.  This stage of successional plants are strongly bacterial dominated, in the range of 0.35 to 0.5

Solanaceae, or plants like tomato, potato, etc, are mid- successional annuals and grasses, in the mid-bacterial dominated range.  So ratios of 0.5 to 0.75

The earthy smell of soil is sometimes the result of the griseofulvins made by actinobacteria (used to be called acitnomycetes, but they are truly bacteria, and thus more correctly labeled actinobacteria).  Actinobacteria can be very inhibitory to mycorrhizal fungi.  We see that some soils are held in weed-field conditions because the soil gets so strongly actinobacterial that beneficial fungi cannot establish on the roots.  Thus succession gets "stuck" for awhile in the weed or early successional stage until the soil organisms can pull out of that actinobacterial soil dominance.

Other soil organisms also produce these compounds.  Other "earth-smells" are made by other organisms.  The mildew smell many people associate with soil is of course not a good thing.  The mildew smell indicates bad conditions, not good.

Rich, deep earth smells, as one detects in old-growth forests, is a fungal smell, typical of the basidiomycetes.  Since many of these beneficial species produce mushrooms, many people associate these good smells with prime mushroom-growing conditions.  That set of smells can be used as indicators of healthy soil.

You could just use this table to think about the F:B ratio

Plant Succession Stage   F:B

No plants                0.01
Weeds                    0.10
Brassica, Bromus
  Bermuda             0.30-0.50
Early grass,vegies    0.50-0.75
Late grass, row crops 0.75 to 1.2
Shrubs, perennial herbs  2 to 5
Deciduous trees          5 to 100
Conifer                50 to 1000

These ratios are based strictly on observation of thousands of soil samples.  The ratios pointed out here are from HEALTHY systems, where the plants do not require pesticides or inorganic fertilizer additions in order to grow.

As soon as pesticides and inorganic fertilizer additions are required, the soil is by definition not healthy with respect to that plant species.  It is healthy for some other plant species, such as a thistle, or a dandelion.  Or maybe the correct, healthy soil for a blackberry vine.

To know if the soil is fungal, you need to see the fungal strands in the soil.  We'll be putting up some pictures of good fungal strands in soil and compost on our website in the next month, so that everyone will know what I mean by strands of fungi instead of pouffy, fuzzy, grey to white fungal fluff.

Earthworms are a good indicator of a decent foodweb, excellent for the vegie and row crop stages.  If the worms get alot of brown leaf fall material, they will likely push the soil fungal.  So if you feed you worms the right stuff, they can maintain fungal biomass in the soil.  But then you won't likely see the fungal strands, you would have to send a soil sample in for analysis to know for certain.

Some growers take some of their soil, compost it, and make sure they have the right fungi present by allowing the soil to not be disturbed and then seeing the good fungi grow in thick white strands.  If no growth after a week, then they know an inoculum is needed, and that it is time to find some of those white fungal strands.

Find good fungal inocula in materials like Alaska Humus in the US (www.alaskahumus.com), or in the  Tryton Biostarter product, or a good fungal compost (see the SFI website for composts proven to have decent fungal compost, it is a rare thing to have decent fungi in most composts.  In fact most commercial compost around the world is not decent compost).  A healthy forest soil, from the duff layer is also a good place to get a good inoculum, but in the US, there are very few heatlhy forest soils left.  Be careful there!

Add those inocula to your special starter soil, maintained at human room temperatures, at 50% moisture, with additions of healthy fungal inocula whenever you see them.   Get your special starter soil into your compost or soil, or make a good fungal compost tea.

OK?  Make sense to you?

Elaine Ingham

> hi elaine!
> is there a way to find out what are the associations of vegetables of
> different families like brassicas and solanaceous?  are they fungal or
> bacterial?  and is there a way, naturally by simply observation that you
> will find out whether the balance in the soil foodweb?  like when we see the
> soil and smell earthy, it is more fungal in association, ya?  see poor
> farmers do have the dough for soil tests and things of that
> nature.  a
> working, guideline will be enough.
> gil carandang
> herbana farms
> philippines


From - Sat Apr 19 16:15:03 2003
X-UIDL: 347345681
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A79B312900CE; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 13:30:03 -0400
Received: by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix, from userid 1001)
	id D622EB4971; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 13:30:04 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (lists.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79820B492D
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 13:30:04 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00015C8F@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 13:29:58 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 22569 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sat, 19 Apr 2003 13:29:58 -0400
Received: from imo-r05.mx.aol.com by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT
          v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00015C8E@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sat, 19 Apr 2003
          13:29:57 -0400
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-r05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.22.) id
          d.34.3878e274 (15877); Sat, 19 Apr 2003 13:29:47 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from  aol.com (mow-d19.webmail.aol.com [205.188.139.135]) by
          air-id07.mx.aol.com (v92.17) with ESMTP id
          MAILINID74-3e053ea1878b246; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 13:29:47 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <3A367D85.27D2CCC2.404D8829@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 13:29:47 -0400
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: fungal vs bacterial/ till no? No till?
Comments: cc: info@soilfoodweb.com
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Spam-itxsa: 0
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347345681

In response to Gil's comments on anaerobic decomposition -

As Steve Diver and I have commented, individually, before, there's a difference in fermentative and putrefactive anaerobic processes.

When dealing with the lactobacilli, you are setting the stage for a very different set of processes than when you allow the run-of-the-mill putrefactive anaerobes to proliferate.

Lactobacillus species establish a particular set of conditions that prevent the growth of other organisms.  Lactobacilli work to reach a particular pH by releasing certain organic acids.  They also control nutrient availability and thus prevent the growth of bacteria like E. coli and other human pathogens.

Plant material from your garden usually does not contain lactobacilli, so you have to inoculate them.  You have to add an overwhelming number of these bacteria in order to move things in the right direction.  So the "starter" can be fairly expensive.  Grow your own, or add LIVE CULTURE yogurt to your compost pile.

Gil, perhaps you know whether the lactobacilli in commercial yogurt are the same species as you are adding to your composts?

How do you tell when you have the lactobacilli versus the putrefier bacteria?  Smell is one way.   What is "ok" stink, versus what is "bad" stink?  The sour kraut smell is ok, brimstone is not (you are losing your sulfur into the atmosphere).  Strong ammonia is bad, a slight urine smell can be ok.  The vomit smell is bad, the cole slaw smell is ok.  I need to do a course to demonstrate to people the differences in smells.

Unfortunately, some people cannot discern the differences.  The smells can be subtly different, so they are not reliable in all cases.  Perhaps it is better to not worry about difficult-for-many-people-to-assess differences, and just keep it aerobic all the time.

People who want to learn the differences in smells, should take a composting course where there is a hands-on part of the course, such as the Luebkes teach in Austria.  Talk about people with know-how, obtained through years of experience!  They may not use microscopes every day, but they figured out how to do things through trial and error.  They probably are better at distinguishing odors than I am.  I am more likely to know the name of the bug making the smell, but they can tell you more about the conditions that allowed that organism to grow, and therefore make that smell.

----------

It is ok when the compost goes anaerobic for a short time (not too much ammonia or hydrogen sulfide loss, please!), and then comes back to aerobic.  As long as you allow microbial growth to use up all the toxic anaerobic decomposition products, then things should be fine.  Of course, you will lose N, P, S if you let the pile become anaerobic, so if you really don't want to lose fertility, keep it aerobic.

Hope this helps -

Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
SFI Corvallis, OR
SFI Port Jefferson, NY
SFI Lismore, NSW, Australia
SFI Hilversum, The Netherlands
SFI Cambridge, New Zealand
www.soilfoodweb.com


From - Sat Apr 19 16:15:05 2003
X-UIDL: 347345682
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id AC541F910098; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 13:50:12 -0400
Received: by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix, from userid 1001)
	id D3010B4981; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 13:50:13 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (lists.sare.org [128.227.242.235])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83DB2B4968
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 13:50:13 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00015C98@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 13:50:07 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 22581 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sat, 19 Apr 2003 13:50:07 -0400
Received: from imo-r09.mx.aol.com by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT
          v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00015C97@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sat, 19 Apr 2003
          13:50:07 -0400
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-r09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.21.) id
          d.f6.2b31d7ca (15974) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sat, 19 Apr
          2003 13:50:00 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from  aol.com (mow-m02.webmail.aol.com [64.12.184.130]) by
          air-id10.mx.aol.com (v92.17) with ESMTP id
          MAILINID101-3e663ea18c48e3; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 13:50:00 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <5E7666C2.7D5B7684.404D8829@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 13:50:00 -0400
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Orchids and epiphytes
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Spam-itxsa: 0
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347345682

Orchids and other epiphytes are interesting cases, because they are parasites of other plants.  They have to be connected by specific kinds of mycorrhizal fungi to the host plant.

The host plant doesn't have to be alive, it can be dead plant material that these plants parasitize.  Therefore the peat moss, dead wood, wood chip media for growing orchids.  Quite often, orchids grow in the organic matter that is caught in the crotches of trees.  I am not enough of an expert on the subject to know if the orchid mycorrhizae mine just that organic matter, or if they parasitize the tree as well.

But you have to have the orchid mycorrhizal fungi to grow orchids.

So, what is in the root system of orchids?  Well, root system?  Do they really have one?  OK, the mycorrhizosphere then?  If you count the fungi as separate from the plant, then the "root system" is fungal.  If you count the mycorrhizal fungi as part of the root, then the rhizosphere is about equal fungi to bacteria.

Hope this helps -

Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
SFI Corvallis, OR
SFI Port Jefferson, NY
SFI Lismore, NSW, Australia
SFI Hilversum, The Netherlands
SFI Cambridge, New Zealand
www.soilfoodweb.com


From - Sat Apr 19 23:29:29 2003
X-UIDL: 347345693
X-Mozilla-Status: 0010
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A03D2E2000DE; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 23:13:01 -0400
Received: by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix, from userid 1001)
	id B0489B48A9; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 23:13:07 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (lists.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 108BEB483F
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 23:13:07 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00015CE1@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 23:12:59 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 22669 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sat, 19 Apr 2003 23:12:59 -0400
Received: from hotmail.com (bay7-f82.bay7.hotmail.com) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu
          (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id
          <0.00015CE0@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 23:12:59 -0400
Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat,
          19 Apr 2003 20:12:58 -0700
Received: from 203.168.19.28 by by7fd.bay7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 20
          Apr 2003 03:12:58 GMT
X-Originating-IP: [203.168.19.28]
X-Originating-Email: [gil_carandang@hotmail.com]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Apr 2003 03:12:58.0756 (UTC)
                       FILETIME=[BEABF440:01C306EA]
Message-ID: <BAY7-F82wPGxgelXDeq0000319a@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 03:12:58 +0000
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: gil carandang <gil_carandang@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: fungal vs bacterial/ till no? No till?
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Spam-itxsa: -3.2
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347345693

dear elaine,
i appreciate greatly your response.  in fact, you are right.  there's a
difference between the putrefactive and fermentative processes.
putrefactive anaerobic results in real foul stinky smells like sewage.
fermentative has much sour but not rotten smell.  there are definite
subtleties on the smells and experience is our best teacher.  some people
like the EM people also test the pH.

anyway, you definitely can use the yogurt.  i however, make our own lacto
bacilli in a very simple way.  we do a two stage process.  we first trap
several microbes to its food like carbohydrate and then saturate them (on
the second stage) with milk.  in this manner, we eliminate the other
microbes and keep a pure lacto bacilli culture.  we then add another kind of
food to keep them alive rather than the customary refrigeration.  in the
countryside, at least in the philippines, we don't have refrigeration.  it
is very cheap to produce that it is almost unbelievable.  i have a booklet
on this process that i distributed at the recent ecofarm conference.  anyone
who will be interested would simply need to e-mail me at:
gil_carandang@hotmail.com.
i was also told that lacto bacilli is both anaerobic and aerobic.  i guess
it is more anaerobic or may we call facultative.  lacto bacilli is really a
microbial workhorse.  it is normally associated with the word probiotics.
and in organic agriculture, especially livestock, they use a lot of these
and combined with immune booster herbs like aloe vera. again, most of highly
nutritious foods are fermented foods.  and lots of them are lactic acid
fermented.  in the same token, the microorganisms that we get from the
forest are assumed by natural farmers to be beneficial (as you observe where
you get them) and maybe more fungal in association.  and the bamboo
microorganism we use can be said to be more bacterial for its roots exudates
attract a lot of beneficial bacteria.  as natural farmers, do i still need
tests and counts?  probably yes.  although most practical farmers will not
have to.  through our experimentations and observations, we should be able
to "see".  we natural farmers always believe that if we open our eyes, ears,
heart and being to nature, nature will start to unfold its mysteries to us.
the ultimate answer to all our agricultural questions lie not on man but on
nature herself.  as long as we align our methods to the workings of nature,
we should be in good position. it is our holistic approach and broader
realization and appreciation of nature that will guide us and not
discriminating and dichotomized mindsets of the reductionist science.

elaine, i really enjoyed your workshop in tulare.  i learn a lot.  it pretty
much rationalize the things i have been doing in my natural farming with our
essential focus on these beneficial indigenous microorganisms and biological
nutrients.

i hope to bring you to the philippines one of this days.  and i hope you
will also be able to set up an office-lab here so we can improve the
philippine agricultural practices and directions.

again, thanks.
gil carandang
herbana farms
philippines






>From: Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
>Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
><SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
>To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
>Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] fungal vs bacterial/ till no? No till?
>Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 13:29:47 -0400
>
>In response to Gil's comments on anaerobic decomposition -
>
>As Steve Diver and I have commented, individually, before, there's a
>difference in fermentative and putrefactive anaerobic processes.
>
>When dealing with the lactobacilli, you are setting the stage for a very
>different set of processes than when you allow the run-of-the-mill
>putrefactive anaerobes to proliferate.
>
>Lactobacillus species establish a particular set of conditions that prevent
>the growth of other organisms.  Lactobacilli work to reach a particular pH
>by releasing certain organic acids.  They also control nutrient
>availability and thus prevent the growth of bacteria like E. coli and other
>human pathogens.
>
>Plant material from your garden usually does not contain lactobacilli, so
>you have to inoculate them.  You have to add an overwhelming number of
>these bacteria in order to move things in the right direction.  So the
>"starter" can be fairly expensive.  Grow your own, or add LIVE CULTURE
>yogurt to your compost pile.
>
>Gil, perhaps you know whether the lactobacilli in commercial yogurt are the
>same species as you are adding to your composts?
>
>How do you tell when you have the lactobacilli versus the putrefier
>bacteria?  Smell is one way.   What is "ok" stink, versus what is "bad"
>stink?  The sour kraut smell is ok, brimstone is not (you are losing your
>sulfur into the atmosphere).  Strong ammonia is bad, a slight urine smell
>can be ok.  The vomit smell is bad, the cole slaw smell is ok.  I need to
>do a course to demonstrate to people the differences in smells.
>
>Unfortunately, some people cannot discern the differences.  The smells can
>be subtly different, so they are not reliable in all cases.  Perhaps it is
>better to not worry about difficult-for-many-people-to-assess differences,
>and just keep it aerobic all the time.
>
>People who want to learn the differences in smells, should take a
>composting course where there is a hands-on part of the course, such as the
>Luebkes teach in Austria.  Talk about people with know-how, obtained
>through years of experience!  They may not use microscopes every day, but
>they figured out how to do things through trial and error.  They probably
>are better at distinguishing odors than I am.  I am more likely to know the
>name of the bug making the smell, but they can tell you more about the
>conditions that allowed that organism to grow, and therefore make that
>smell.
>
>----------
>
>It is ok when the compost goes anaerobic for a short time (not too much
>ammonia or hydrogen sulfide loss, please!), and then comes back to aerobic.
>  As long as you allow microbial growth to use up all the toxic anaerobic
>decomposition products, then things should be fine.  Of course, you will
>lose N, P, S if you let the pile become anaerobic, so if you really don't
>want to lose fertility, keep it aerobic.
>
>Hope this helps -
>
>Elaine Ingham
>President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
>SFI Corvallis, OR
>SFI Port Jefferson, NY
>SFI Lismore, NSW, Australia
>SFI Hilversum, The Netherlands
>SFI Cambridge, New Zealand
>www.soilfoodweb.com


_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus


From - Sat Apr 19 23:29:29 2003
X-UIDL: 347345693
X-Mozilla-Status: 0010
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A03D2E2000DE; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 23:13:01 -0400
Received: by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix, from userid 1001)
	id B0489B48A9; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 23:13:07 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (lists.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 108BEB483F
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 23:13:07 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00015CE1@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 23:12:59 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 22669 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sat, 19 Apr 2003 23:12:59 -0400
Received: from hotmail.com (bay7-f82.bay7.hotmail.com) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu
          (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id
          <0.00015CE0@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 23:12:59 -0400
Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat,
          19 Apr 2003 20:12:58 -0700
Received: from 203.168.19.28 by by7fd.bay7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 20
          Apr 2003 03:12:58 GMT
X-Originating-IP: [203.168.19.28]
X-Originating-Email: [gil_carandang@hotmail.com]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Apr 2003 03:12:58.0756 (UTC)
                       FILETIME=[BEABF440:01C306EA]
Message-ID: <BAY7-F82wPGxgelXDeq0000319a@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 03:12:58 +0000
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: gil carandang <gil_carandang@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: fungal vs bacterial/ till no? No till?
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Spam-itxsa: -3.2
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347345693

dear elaine,
i appreciate greatly your response.  in fact, you are right.  there's a
difference between the putrefactive and fermentative processes.
putrefactive anaerobic results in real foul stinky smells like sewage.
fermentative has much sour but not rotten smell.  there are definite
subtleties on the smells and experience is our best teacher.  some people
like the EM people also test the pH.

anyway, you definitely can use the yogurt.  i however, make our own lacto
bacilli in a very simple way.  we do a two stage process.  we first trap
several microbes to its food like carbohydrate and then saturate them (on
the second stage) with milk.  in this manner, we eliminate the other
microbes and keep a pure lacto bacilli culture.  we then add another kind of
food to keep them alive rather than the customary refrigeration.  in the
countryside, at least in the philippines, we don't have refrigeration.  it
is very cheap to produce that it is almost unbelievable.  i have a booklet
on this process that i distributed at the recent ecofarm conference.  anyone
who will be interested would simply need to e-mail me at:
gil_carandang@hotmail.com.
i was also told that lacto bacilli is both anaerobic and aerobic.  i guess
it is more anaerobic or may we call facultative.  lacto bacilli is really a
microbial workhorse.  it is normally associated with the word probiotics.
and in organic agriculture, especially livestock, they use a lot of these
and combined with immune booster herbs like aloe vera. again, most of highly
nutritious foods are fermented foods.  and lots of them are lactic acid
fermented.  in the same token, the microorganisms that we get from the
forest are assumed by natural farmers to be beneficial (as you observe where
you get them) and maybe more fungal in association.  and the bamboo
microorganism we use can be said to be more bacterial for its roots exudates
attract a lot of beneficial bacteria.  as natural farmers, do i still need
tests and counts?  probably yes.  although most practical farmers will not
have to.  through our experimentations and observations, we should be able
to "see".  we natural farmers always believe that if we open our eyes, ears,
heart and being to nature, nature will start to unfold its mysteries to us.
the ultimate answer to all our agricultural questions lie not on man but on
nature herself.  as long as we align our methods to the workings of nature,
we should be in good position. it is our holistic approach and broader
realization and appreciation of nature that will guide us and not
discriminating and dichotomized mindsets of the reductionist science.

elaine, i really enjoyed your workshop in tulare.  i learn a lot.  it pretty
much rationalize the things i have been doing in my natural farming with our
essential focus on these beneficial indigenous microorganisms and biological
nutrients.

i hope to bring you to the philippines one of this days.  and i hope you
will also be able to set up an office-lab here so we can improve the
philippine agricultural practices and directions.

again, thanks.
gil carandang
herbana farms
philippines






>From: Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
>Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
><SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
>To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
>Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] fungal vs bacterial/ till no? No till?
>Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 13:29:47 -0400
>
>In response to Gil's comments on anaerobic decomposition -
>
>As Steve Diver and I have commented, individually, before, there's a
>difference in fermentative and putrefactive anaerobic processes.
>
>When dealing with the lactobacilli, you are setting the stage for a very
>different set of processes than when you allow the run-of-the-mill
>putrefactive anaerobes to proliferate.
>
>Lactobacillus species establish a particular set of conditions that prevent
>the growth of other organisms.  Lactobacilli work to reach a particular pH
>by releasing certain organic acids.  They also control nutrient
>availability and thus prevent the growth of bacteria like E. coli and other
>human pathogens.
>
>Plant material from your garden usually does not contain lactobacilli, so
>you have to inoculate them.  You have to add an overwhelming number of
>these bacteria in order to move things in the right direction.  So the
>"starter" can be fairly expensive.  Grow your own, or add LIVE CULTURE
>yogurt to your compost pile.
>
>Gil, perhaps you know whether the lactobacilli in commercial yogurt are the
>same species as you are adding to your composts?
>
>How do you tell when you have the lactobacilli versus the putrefier
>bacteria?  Smell is one way.   What is "ok" stink, versus what is "bad"
>stink?  The sour kraut smell is ok, brimstone is not (you are losing your
>sulfur into the atmosphere).  Strong ammonia is bad, a slight urine smell
>can be ok.  The vomit smell is bad, the cole slaw smell is ok.  I need to
>do a course to demonstrate to people the differences in smells.
>
>Unfortunately, some people cannot discern the differences.  The smells can
>be subtly different, so they are not reliable in all cases.  Perhaps it is
>better to not worry about difficult-for-many-people-to-assess differences,
>and just keep it aerobic all the time.
>
>People who want to learn the differences in smells, should take a
>composting course where there is a hands-on part of the course, such as the
>Luebkes teach in Austria.  Talk about people with know-how, obtained
>through years of experience!  They may not use microscopes every day, but
>they figured out how to do things through trial and error.  They probably
>are better at distinguishing odors than I am.  I am more likely to know the
>name of the bug making the smell, but they can tell you more about the
>conditions that allowed that organism to grow, and therefore make that
>smell.
>
>----------
>
>It is ok when the compost goes anaerobic for a short time (not too much
>ammonia or hydrogen sulfide loss, please!), and then comes back to aerobic.
>  As long as you allow microbial growth to use up all the toxic anaerobic
>decomposition products, then things should be fine.  Of course, you will
>lose N, P, S if you let the pile become anaerobic, so if you really don't
>want to lose fertility, keep it aerobic.
>
>Hope this helps -
>
>Elaine Ingham
>President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
>SFI Corvallis, OR
>SFI Port Jefferson, NY
>SFI Lismore, NSW, Australia
>SFI Hilversum, The Netherlands
>SFI Cambridge, New Zealand
>www.soilfoodweb.com


_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus


From - Sun Apr 20 20:38:57 2003
X-UIDL: 347345714
X-Mozilla-Status: 0000
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A8C32D5E00DA; Sun, 20 Apr 2003 12:20:19 -0400
Received: by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix, from userid 1001)
	id A935BB49F0; Sun, 20 Apr 2003 12:20:26 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18ECBB4A2D
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Sun, 20 Apr 2003 12:20:26 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00015D52@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; 20 Apr 2003 12:20:14 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 22804 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sun, 20 Apr 2003 12:20:13 -0400
Received: from hotmail.com (bay7-f30.bay7.hotmail.com) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu
          (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id
          <0.00015D51@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; 20 Apr 2003 12:20:13 -0400
Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun,
          20 Apr 2003 09:20:12 -0700
Received: from 203.168.19.9 by by7fd.bay7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 20
          Apr 2003 16:20:12 GMT
X-Originating-IP: [203.168.19.9]
X-Originating-Email: [gil_carandang@hotmail.com]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Apr 2003 16:20:12.0703 (UTC)
                       FILETIME=[B84C4AF0:01C30758]
Message-ID: <BAY7-F30ijhtq9Bni9l00004cda@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 16:20:12 +0000
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: gil carandang <gil_carandang@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Technology Culture of Indigenous Microorganisms
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Spam-itxsa: 0
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347345714

Hi all!
Since I mentioned to my e-mail to Dr.. Elaine Ingham about the culture of
indigenous microorganisms for agriculture, a lot of people have e-mailed me
on the booklet.  I am then posting the details on this booklet:

Technology of Culturing Beneficial Indigenous Microorganisms and
Bionutrients for use in Agricultural Crops and Livestock

Last January 23, 2003 Gil Carandang of Herbana Farms, a leading organic and
natural farming advocate from the Philipines and who recently completed
Apprenticeship in Ecological Horticulture at the University  of California
Santa Cruz, had just conducted a workshop on Indigenous Microorganism:  Grow
Your Own at the annual Ecological Farming Conference in Asilomar (Monterey,
California) on full-packed crowd.

Indigenous Microorganisms (IMO):  Grow Your Own
The recent interest in building microorganism populations for fertility and
pathogen control has given many farmers food for thought.  Compost teas are
now becoming extremely high in concentrations of beneficial microorganisms.
This interest is not so new in Asian countries, however, where "Nature
Farming" and "Effective Microorganisms" or EM Technology has been popular
for years.  Buying starter cultures of beneficiaal microorganisms can be
expensive for farmers.  Now a relatively new movement is empowering farmers
with knowledge about culturing, increasing and applying local or
"indigenous" on-farm beneficial microorganisms.  Learn the basic theory and
techniques for growing these farming companions to help increase yields and
reduce problems.

"The best workshop I had in 18 years!"
- Jim Nelson
  Camp Joy Gardens
  Boulder Creek, California

Learn to culture Lacto Bacilli, the workhorse of the beneficial indigenous
microorganisms.  Lacto Bacilli arrest foul odors and improve digestion,
nutrient intake.
-Forest microorganism.  Culture diversed, powerful beneficial indigenous
microorganisms from the forest and apply them to your garden and farm and
improve soil fertility.
-Beneficial Indigenous Microorganisms produce enzymes and natural antibiotic
that control pathogens like e. coli and salmonella.
-Bionutrients.  Fermented plant extracts to improve soil fertilty, control
pests and diseases, increase microbial diversity and ecology.

Did you know that you can gather plants in your farm and use them as
fermented extracts to improve plant growth serving as natural growth
promotants?
... and many more!

The booklet on this amazing natural farming technology is now available.
You can organize your own workshop to learn this Asian Natural Farming
technology empowering farmers, self-generating their own inputs through the
culture of these Beneficial Indigenous Microorganisms and Bionutrients.  Gil
Carandang can be reached through e-mail: gil_carandang@hotmail.com




_________________________________________________________________
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail


From - Sun Apr 20 20:38:57 2003
X-UIDL: 347345714
X-Mozilla-Status: 0000
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A8C32D5E00DA; Sun, 20 Apr 2003 12:20:19 -0400
Received: by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix, from userid 1001)
	id A935BB49F0; Sun, 20 Apr 2003 12:20:26 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18ECBB4A2D
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Sun, 20 Apr 2003 12:20:26 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00015D52@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; 20 Apr 2003 12:20:14 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 22804 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sun, 20 Apr 2003 12:20:13 -0400
Received: from hotmail.com (bay7-f30.bay7.hotmail.com) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu
          (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id
          <0.00015D51@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; 20 Apr 2003 12:20:13 -0400
Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun,
          20 Apr 2003 09:20:12 -0700
Received: from 203.168.19.9 by by7fd.bay7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 20
          Apr 2003 16:20:12 GMT
X-Originating-IP: [203.168.19.9]
X-Originating-Email: [gil_carandang@hotmail.com]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Apr 2003 16:20:12.0703 (UTC)
                       FILETIME=[B84C4AF0:01C30758]
Message-ID: <BAY7-F30ijhtq9Bni9l00004cda@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 16:20:12 +0000
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: gil carandang <gil_carandang@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Technology Culture of Indigenous Microorganisms
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Spam-itxsa: 0
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347345714

Hi all!
Since I mentioned to my e-mail to Dr.. Elaine Ingham about the culture of
indigenous microorganisms for agriculture, a lot of people have e-mailed me
on the booklet.  I am then posting the details on this booklet:

Technology of Culturing Beneficial Indigenous Microorganisms and
Bionutrients for use in Agricultural Crops and Livestock

Last January 23, 2003 Gil Carandang of Herbana Farms, a leading organic and
natural farming advocate from the Philipines and who recently completed
Apprenticeship in Ecological Horticulture at the University  of California
Santa Cruz, had just conducted a workshop on Indigenous Microorganism:  Grow
Your Own at the annual Ecological Farming Conference in Asilomar (Monterey,
California) on full-packed crowd.

Indigenous Microorganisms (IMO):  Grow Your Own
The recent interest in building microorganism populations for fertility and
pathogen control has given many farmers food for thought.  Compost teas are
now becoming extremely high in concentrations of beneficial microorganisms.
This interest is not so new in Asian countries, however, where "Nature
Farming" and "Effective Microorganisms" or EM Technology has been popular
for years.  Buying starter cultures of beneficiaal microorganisms can be
expensive for farmers.  Now a relatively new movement is empowering farmers
with knowledge about culturing, increasing and applying local or
"indigenous" on-farm beneficial microorganisms.  Learn the basic theory and
techniques for growing these farming companions to help increase yields and
reduce problems.

"The best workshop I had in 18 years!"
- Jim Nelson
  Camp Joy Gardens
  Boulder Creek, California

Learn to culture Lacto Bacilli, the workhorse of the beneficial indigenous
microorganisms.  Lacto Bacilli arrest foul odors and improve digestion,
nutrient intake.
-Forest microorganism.  Culture diversed, powerful beneficial indigenous
microorganisms from the forest and apply them to your garden and farm and
improve soil fertility.
-Beneficial Indigenous Microorganisms produce enzymes and natural antibiotic
that control pathogens like e. coli and salmonella.
-Bionutrients.  Fermented plant extracts to improve soil fertilty, control
pests and diseases, increase microbial diversity and ecology.

Did you know that you can gather plants in your farm and use them as
fermented extracts to improve plant growth serving as natural growth
promotants?
... and many more!

The booklet on this amazing natural farming technology is now available.
You can organize your own workshop to learn this Asian Natural Farming
technology empowering farmers, self-generating their own inputs through the
culture of these Beneficial Indigenous Microorganisms and Bionutrients.  Gil
Carandang can be reached through e-mail: gil_carandang@hotmail.com




_________________________________________________________________
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail


From - Sun Apr 20 20:39:02 2003
X-UIDL: 347345728
X-Mozilla-Status: 0010
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id ADF34B6700AE; Sun, 20 Apr 2003 17:15:31 -0400
Received: by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix, from userid 1001)
	id 4C83AB4A44; Sun, 20 Apr 2003 17:15:38 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D18EBB4A29
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Sun, 20 Apr 2003 17:15:37 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00015D93@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; 20 Apr 2003 17:15:25 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 22881 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sun, 20 Apr 2003 17:15:25 -0400
Received: from imo-d03.mx.aol.com by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT
          v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00015D92@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; 20 Apr 2003
          17:15:24 -0400
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-d03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.22.) id
          d.142.fa34c78 (15901) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sun, 20 Apr
          2003 17:15:17 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from  aol.com (mow-m03.webmail.aol.com [64.12.184.131]) by
          air-id09.mx.aol.com (v92.17) with ESMTP id
          MAILINID94-3e1d3ea30de4162; Sun, 20 Apr 2003 17:15:16 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <6DE99278.2A729702.404D8829@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 17:15:16 -0400
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: fungal vs bacterial/ till no? No till?
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Spam-itxsa: 0
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347345728

Hi Gil -

I agree that often times the grower knows enough about their land and past practices that they should have a really good idea of what is going on biologically in their soil.

But sometimes, even though things should be going right, they aren't.  Take the front lawn at SFI.  We have been using compost tea, a few organic additives like kelp, corn gluten, and the occasional product that people want tested, and we are having a weed problem.  Head-scratching.  But then we noticed that the soil is extremely compacted, as shown by the imbalance in active to total bacteria, no beneficial fungi present, and extremely high ciliate numbers.

The people who own the protperty have been over-watering.  It's water-logged the soil.  So, we have to get them to turn the water off, because healthy soil requires 50% less water than poor-structure soil.  Especially in western Oregon, over-watering can be a real problem.

But, what do you do to fix this, now that we've figured out what the problem is?  First, reduce water by 50%.  Then get air back into the soil.

Aeration cores are the best bet.  Fill the holes with fungal-dominated aerobic compost, with VAM spores, because we've lost the beneficial fungi completely in that soil.

It was the soil biology analysis that let us know exactly what was wrong, and how to fix it.

Often turf people just apply humic acids in a similar condition, and hope that was all that was needed.  But then a  month later, you know it wasnt' adequate to fix the problem.  The grass is in serious trouble.

If it is economically worth while, running a check and knowing what needs to be done solves the problem before the plants die.

It always comes down to a question of cost - benefit ratio.  Do you spend the money to do the testing BEFORE the plant response lets you know something is wrong?

Depends on how much money will be made on that crop.  If the crop isn't that big a deal, and you can afford to lose productivity, or maybe lose the crop all together, then letting the plant tell you something is wrong is ok.

But if the loss of part or all of the crop would be economically devasting, then doing the soil biology, and chemistry, analysis is worthwhile.

If you can afford the consequence of guesswork, then guess.  If the potential improvement in production is more than the cost of the testing, then it makes sense to test, and then correct the problem.

If you know your land, and the impact that the things you do to it have on the biology, then you aren't doing guesswork.

What I'd really like to do is have people add manures, different kinds of compost, different products, and then test to see what the affect is on the biology.  Then we'd KNOW what adding these materials actually is.  In the future we'd just need to assess the quality of the compost, or manure, and we'd know what effect the additions have on the soil.  Less and less testing would be required with time, and we'd have a better idea what to do in different situations to really fix a soil to grow what you want it to grow.  So, here's hoping for that kind of knowledge base!

I'd love to work with you to train people in the Phillipiines to do the kind of testing that we do.

Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
SFI Corvallis, OR
SFI Port Jefferson, NY
SFI Lismore, NSW, Australia
SFI Hilversum, The Netherlands
SFI Cambridge, New Zealand
www.soilfoodweb.com


From - Sun Apr 20 20:39:04 2003
X-UIDL: 347345733
X-Mozilla-Status: 0010
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A7B43F7200A6; Sun, 20 Apr 2003 17:57:08 -0400
Received: by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix, from userid 1001)
	id AA4CBB4AA4; Sun, 20 Apr 2003 17:57:15 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (lists.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A822B4A39
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Sun, 20 Apr 2003 17:57:15 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00015D9E@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; 20 Apr 2003 17:57:03 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 22895 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sun, 20 Apr 2003 17:57:02 -0400
Received: from imo-r06.mx.aol.com by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT
          v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00015D9D@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; 20 Apr 2003
          17:57:02 -0400
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-r06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.22.) id
          d.4f.2dad5546 (15874) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sun, 20 Apr
          2003 17:56:59 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from  aol.com (mow-m07.webmail.aol.com [64.12.184.135]) by
          air-id07.mx.aol.com (v92.17) with ESMTP id
          MAILINID71-3e023ea317ab2a8; Sun, 20 Apr 2003 17:56:59 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <3D0A0C55.75F57B52.404D8829@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 17:56:59 -0400
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Technology Culture of Indigenous Microorganisms
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Spam-itxsa: 0
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347345733

Please check the compost_tea@yahoogroups.com website for more about getting beneficial fungi in your compost and compost teas.  Jeff Lowenfels has been putting together some great recipes and ideas on how to improve the beneficial fungi.

Gil's work on fermentative bacterial cultures of course is a must read for interested people.

We'd like to do a mini-course on beneficial fungal culturing (how do you select and maintain your own) at SFI this fall.  We're working on isolating the fungi that attack and destroy cucumber beetles, for example.  Fire ants, carpenter ants, etc.  But how do you do this yourself?  How do you buy the culture ONCE, and then maintain it?  How do you select the strains of these organisms that work best on your land?  Hopefully, Mike Holmes of Holmes Enviro and I will be able to give a presentation this fall.  Stay tuned on the SFI website.


Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
SFI Corvallis, OR
SFI Port Jefferson, NY
SFI Lismore, NSW, Australia
SFI Hilversum, The Netherlands
SFI Cambridge, New Zealand
www.soilfoodweb.com


From - Sun Apr 20 21:45:25 2003
X-UIDL: 347345743
X-Mozilla-Status: 0010
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id ACD851B900AE; Sun, 20 Apr 2003 20:35:36 -0400
Received: by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix, from userid 1001)
	id 05505B48DD; Sun, 20 Apr 2003 20:35:47 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (lists.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57896B48AA
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Sun, 20 Apr 2003 20:35:46 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00015DC3@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; 20 Apr 2003 20:35:32 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 22944 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sun, 20 Apr 2003 20:35:32 -0400
Received: from imo-r04.mx.aol.com by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT
          v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00015DC2@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; 20 Apr 2003
          20:35:32 -0400
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-r04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.22.) id
          d.170.1d758813 (15863); Sun, 20 Apr 2003 20:35:27 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from  aol.com (mow-m24.webmail.aol.com [64.12.137.1]) by
          air-id06.mx.aol.com (v93.8) with ESMTP id MAILINID62-3df73ea33cce275;
          Sun, 20 Apr 2003 20:35:26 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <18E2AD49.3B46C7FF.404D8829@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 20:35:26 -0400
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Lactobacilli
Comments: cc: jpy@bennettvalleyvineyards.com
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Spam-itxsa: 0
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347345743

In response to Peter's question on lactobacilli -

Several things have to be understood about the conditions that allow competitive exclusion by the three groups under consideration here.  The three groups being â€“ 1.  lactobacilli, 2.  E. coli and humans pathogens, and 3.  mildews.

1. Lactobacilli, and 2. E. coli and the human pathogens we worry about in compost are facultative anaerobes.  That means they can grow aerobically, and in reduced oxygen conditions (i.e., anaerobic, but not severely anaerobic conditions).  They aren't good at competing with true aerobes however.  When oxygen begins to drop, lactobacilli, E. coli and human pathogens come into their competitive superiority at certain low oxygen and reduced oxygen conditions.   They produce different enzymes in reduced oxygen  conditions then in aerobic conditions and now the human pathogens and lactobacilli win in competition with aerobes for food.

To determine whether the human pathogens and E. coli, or the lactobacilli will win in competition with each other, you have to look at what foods are present, and whose enzymes are better at grabbing those foods.

The lactobacilli and other yogurt bacteria are better than E. coli at taking up and using milk protein and milk sugar (lactose).  Even if the lactobacilli and related bacteria are low in number to begin, they will soon grow and produce overwhelmingly high numbers, and they will beat any other organism for the foods of which milk is comprised.  Lactobacillus species are used to stabilize milk and milk products, and give them longer shelf life.

But on leaf surfaces, the story is different.  First, leaf surfaces are not generally all that anaerobic, so the lactobacilli are not highly competitive in these environments.  Leaves do not produce notable amounts of milk proteins or sugars, so the foods that lactobacilli are best at grabbing from everyone else and preventing anyone else from growing are not present.  Mildew fungi are better at using exudates from leaf surfaces than lactobacillus.  If the leaf or fruit surfaces lack a normal set of bacteria and fungi, then mildew has an open field of infection without any competition.

If lactobacilli grow rapidly, they use up oxygen and produce organic acids, which result in the pH conditions that mildew fungi like.  Mildew fungi tolerate reduced oxygen conditions just fine.  When mildew is present, and lactobacilli do not have the ability to edge out the mildews, the human pathogens may also not be prevented from growing.  That is a situation that needs study.

In the little bit of work we did with the SARE grant last year where we established the conditions to allow lactobacillus to grow in the compost teas, there was no suppression of mildew, and E. coli was a problem.  Probably no surprise, once you think all these things through.  If there was food enough for lactobacilli to grow and therefore use up oxygen, (i.e., the tea brew therefore dropped into the anaerobic range), then E. coli was free to grow too.  Mildew did just fine, because the reduced oxygen in the tea kept the competitor fungi and bacteria from growing and anaerobic bacterial growth took out the aerobic fungi.

If you put milk on plants, then, possibly a different story would occur with respect to suppression of mildew by lactobacillus.  But how much milk would be needed to set up the conditions to let the lactobacillus control things?

Spreading milk over acres of land is not cheap.  We perhaps have better things to do with milk.

What about putting milk in compost tea?  The concentration of milk has to be so high that it is not economically feasible.  But what if you are a dairy farm with waste or spoiled milk?  Then maybe it would be reasonable.  But we'd have to work out how much milk, and what the inoculum of lactobacilli would need to be......
-------------
And I can just hear certain people after they read this -"Elaineâ€™s just trying to get more people to test with her lab!"  But we can't suggest that things work before we have DATA that shows they work.  I don't mean to suggest that Peter was saying that, but I know people selling machines without any data to show their machines make decent compost tea.  They critisize me for requiring data.

And I get blasted from the other side because they say there isn't ten years of PUBLISHED data.

Sigh.  Someone is always going to critisize, right?  Letâ€™s just do our best to get the ten years of data.  Figure out when tea works, and why it doesnâ€™t work when it doesnâ€™t work.  I really need to know both kinds of examples, but I canâ€™t figure out the reason if you donâ€™t give me information to understand the situation.

I've taken on the job to figure out why compost teas work, and what went wrong when someone didn't get compost tea to work the way they thought it should.  And guess what? It can be a hair-pulling experience to get an agronomist to try to understand microbiology!

For example, a not-so-recent University study I heard about where they put compost tea on a fumigated field weeks before planting anything (what did they think the organisms were living on? How long can the soluble nutrients from the tea hold the tea organisms in an active condition?).   Is it so amazing that the compost tea treatment had no effect on plant growth or disease suppression?  What were the weather conditions when they put the tea on?  And they tout this as proof that compost tea doesn't work!

Snort.  Please folks, when someone says compost tea doesn't work, take a close look at the way the â€œresearchâ€ was done.  It isnâ€™t that hard to figure these things out.  Think of the tea organisms just like your children.  Do nothing to tea that you would not allow to happen to your children.  Ok, spinning them around in a tea brewer, and spraying them through the sprayer are exceptions, but I think you get my point?

Elaine Ingham
------------------------
Peter's message -

Elaine (and everyone else),

Absolutely fascinating discussion about bateria versus fungi. You struck a chord on a topic I've been following lately. If you add lactobacilli (yogurt) to a compost tea, would it help it suppress powdery mildew? Is lactobacilli what makes milk effective against powdery mildew?

Peter


From - Sun Apr 20 21:45:25 2003
X-UIDL: 347345743
X-Mozilla-Status: 0010
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id ACD851B900AE; Sun, 20 Apr 2003 20:35:36 -0400
Received: by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix, from userid 1001)
	id 05505B48DD; Sun, 20 Apr 2003 20:35:47 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (lists.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57896B48AA
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Sun, 20 Apr 2003 20:35:46 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00015DC3@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; 20 Apr 2003 20:35:32 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 22944 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sun, 20 Apr 2003 20:35:32 -0400
Received: from imo-r04.mx.aol.com by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT
          v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00015DC2@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; 20 Apr 2003
          20:35:32 -0400
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-r04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.22.) id
          d.170.1d758813 (15863); Sun, 20 Apr 2003 20:35:27 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from  aol.com (mow-m24.webmail.aol.com [64.12.137.1]) by
          air-id06.mx.aol.com (v93.8) with ESMTP id MAILINID62-3df73ea33cce275;
          Sun, 20 Apr 2003 20:35:26 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <18E2AD49.3B46C7FF.404D8829@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 20:35:26 -0400
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Lactobacilli
Comments: cc: jpy@bennettvalleyvineyards.com
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Spam-itxsa: 0
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347345743

In response to Peter's question on lactobacilli -

Several things have to be understood about the conditions that allow competitive exclusion by the three groups under consideration here.  The three groups being â€“ 1.  lactobacilli, 2.  E. coli and humans pathogens, and 3.  mildews.

1. Lactobacilli, and 2. E. coli and the human pathogens we worry about in compost are facultative anaerobes.  That means they can grow aerobically, and in reduced oxygen conditions (i.e., anaerobic, but not severely anaerobic conditions).  They aren't good at competing with true aerobes however.  When oxygen begins to drop, lactobacilli, E. coli and human pathogens come into their competitive superiority at certain low oxygen and reduced oxygen conditions.   They produce different enzymes in reduced oxygen  conditions then in aerobic conditions and now the human pathogens and lactobacilli win in competition with aerobes for food.

To determine whether the human pathogens and E. coli, or the lactobacilli will win in competition with each other, you have to look at what foods are present, and whose enzymes are better at grabbing those foods.

The lactobacilli and other yogurt bacteria are better than E. coli at taking up and using milk protein and milk sugar (lactose).  Even if the lactobacilli and related bacteria are low in number to begin, they will soon grow and produce overwhelmingly high numbers, and they will beat any other organism for the foods of which milk is comprised.  Lactobacillus species are used to stabilize milk and milk products, and give them longer shelf life.

But on leaf surfaces, the story is different.  First, leaf surfaces are not generally all that anaerobic, so the lactobacilli are not highly competitive in these environments.  Leaves do not produce notable amounts of milk proteins or sugars, so the foods that lactobacilli are best at grabbing from everyone else and preventing anyone else from growing are not present.  Mildew fungi are better at using exudates from leaf surfaces than lactobacillus.  If the leaf or fruit surfaces lack a normal set of bacteria and fungi, then mildew has an open field of infection without any competition.

If lactobacilli grow rapidly, they use up oxygen and produce organic acids, which result in the pH conditions that mildew fungi like.  Mildew fungi tolerate reduced oxygen conditions just fine.  When mildew is present, and lactobacilli do not have the ability to edge out the mildews, the human pathogens may also not be prevented from growing.  That is a situation that needs study.

In the little bit of work we did with the SARE grant last year where we established the conditions to allow lactobacillus to grow in the compost teas, there was no suppression of mildew, and E. coli was a problem.  Probably no surprise, once you think all these things through.  If there was food enough for lactobacilli to grow and therefore use up oxygen, (i.e., the tea brew therefore dropped into the anaerobic range), then E. coli was free to grow too.  Mildew did just fine, because the reduced oxygen in the tea kept the competitor fungi and bacteria from growing and anaerobic bacterial growth took out the aerobic fungi.

If you put milk on plants, then, possibly a different story would occur with respect to suppression of mildew by lactobacillus.  But how much milk would be needed to set up the conditions to let the lactobacillus control things?

Spreading milk over acres of land is not cheap.  We perhaps have better things to do with milk.

What about putting milk in compost tea?  The concentration of milk has to be so high that it is not economically feasible.  But what if you are a dairy farm with waste or spoiled milk?  Then maybe it would be reasonable.  But we'd have to work out how much milk, and what the inoculum of lactobacilli would need to be......
-------------
And I can just hear certain people after they read this -"Elaineâ€™s just trying to get more people to test with her lab!"  But we can't suggest that things work before we have DATA that shows they work.  I don't mean to suggest that Peter was saying that, but I know people selling machines without any data to show their machines make decent compost tea.  They critisize me for requiring data.

And I get blasted from the other side because they say there isn't ten years of PUBLISHED data.

Sigh.  Someone is always going to critisize, right?  Letâ€™s just do our best to get the ten years of data.  Figure out when tea works, and why it doesnâ€™t work when it doesnâ€™t work.  I really need to know both kinds of examples, but I canâ€™t figure out the reason if you donâ€™t give me information to understand the situation.

I've taken on the job to figure out why compost teas work, and what went wrong when someone didn't get compost tea to work the way they thought it should.  And guess what? It can be a hair-pulling experience to get an agronomist to try to understand microbiology!

For example, a not-so-recent University study I heard about where they put compost tea on a fumigated field weeks before planting anything (what did they think the organisms were living on? How long can the soluble nutrients from the tea hold the tea organisms in an active condition?).   Is it so amazing that the compost tea treatment had no effect on plant growth or disease suppression?  What were the weather conditions when they put the tea on?  And they tout this as proof that compost tea doesn't work!

Snort.  Please folks, when someone says compost tea doesn't work, take a close look at the way the â€œresearchâ€ was done.  It isnâ€™t that hard to figure these things out.  Think of the tea organisms just like your children.  Do nothing to tea that you would not allow to happen to your children.  Ok, spinning them around in a tea brewer, and spraying them through the sprayer are exceptions, but I think you get my point?

Elaine Ingham
------------------------
Peter's message -

Elaine (and everyone else),

Absolutely fascinating discussion about bateria versus fungi. You struck a chord on a topic I've been following lately. If you add lactobacilli (yogurt) to a compost tea, would it help it suppress powdery mildew? Is lactobacilli what makes milk effective against powdery mildew?

Peter


From - Sun Apr 20 21:45:25 2003
X-UIDL: 347345744
X-Mozilla-Status: 0010
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A1B8400900BC; Sun, 20 Apr 2003 20:56:24 -0400
Received: by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix, from userid 1001)
	id 0844AB49EF; Sun, 20 Apr 2003 20:56:35 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E87EB49BC
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Sun, 20 Apr 2003 20:56:34 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00015DCC@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; 20 Apr 2003 20:56:21 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 22956 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sun, 20 Apr 2003 20:56:21 -0400
Received: from hotmail.com (bay7-f59.bay7.hotmail.com) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu
          (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id
          <0.00015DCB@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; 20 Apr 2003 20:56:21 -0400
Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun,
          20 Apr 2003 17:56:20 -0700
Received: from 203.168.19.21 by by7fd.bay7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 21
          Apr 2003 00:56:20 GMT
X-Originating-IP: [203.168.19.21]
X-Originating-Email: [gil_carandang@hotmail.com]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Apr 2003 00:56:20.0388 (UTC)
                       FILETIME=[D27A0640:01C307A0]
Message-ID: <BAY7-F59kZNi3CfKWjl00006691@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 00:56:20 +0000
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: gil carandang <gil_carandang@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: fungal vs bacterial/ till no? No till?
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Spam-itxsa: 0
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347345744

dear elaine,
i fully agree with you.  in fact, that's the way it should be.  i have
nothing against testings and science.  what i simply propose is to really
involve farmers in determining their agriculture, self-reliance and not
dictated by the next guy.  in my farm, i do internship and apprenticeship,
and when someone applies, i always asked, who's gonna touch and deal with
the dirt.  if the prospect intern or apprentice is not the one who will be
dealing with the soil, then i gracefully turn them down.  a good true farmer
should really be able to connect with the dirt, observe and "talk" to the
dirt and plants.  it is this simplicity of relationship that determines the
outcome of his agriculture.  and this can only happen when you are the real
person doing it and not someone else.  that's the reason, i don't believe
too much on big agriculture.  big agriculture loses our connection with the
dirt.  it alienates and separates us from the earth.  we are but part of it
and cannot be separated from it.  we respond to the "dictates" of nature and
not of man.

anyway, let us not be conditioned with what the next guy will tell us.  let
us be free and creative in what we do in agriculture.  let us be holistic
and simple. let us learn from nature.  and let us align of ways to the
workings of nature.

let us know our soil and its microbial activities and ecologies.  and in
knowing, we shall start to understand.  and understanding will be the true
beginning of our journey -- our relationship with her.

tests are extremely important in knowing what may be "wrong" with the soil.
but let us not stop and be dependent on it.  soil test for example is just
the beginning.  we still owe it to ourselves not just to know but to
understand our position and relationship with mother earth.  observations
and experiments are important.  but you are right elaine, you should know
where you are coming from. you should know the cost-benefit.  and without a
better understanding of our land, then you need the the test to really start
your journey in this farming with the dirt.

gil carandang
herbana farms
philippines






>From: Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
>Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
><SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
>To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
>Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] fungal vs bacterial/ till no? No till?
>Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 17:15:16 -0400
>
>Hi Gil -
>
>I agree that often times the grower knows enough about their land and past
>practices that they should have a really good idea of what is going on
>biologically in their soil.
>
>But sometimes, even though things should be going right, they aren't.  Take
>the front lawn at SFI.  We have been using compost tea, a few organic
>additives like kelp, corn gluten, and the occasional product that people
>want tested, and we are having a weed problem.  Head-scratching.  But then
>we noticed that the soil is extremely compacted, as shown by the imbalance
>in active to total bacteria, no beneficial fungi present, and extremely
>high ciliate numbers.
>
>The people who own the protperty have been over-watering.  It's
>water-logged the soil.  So, we have to get them to turn the water off,
>because healthy soil requires 50% less water than poor-structure soil.
>Especially in western Oregon, over-watering can be a real problem.
>
>But, what do you do to fix this, now that we've figured out what the
>problem is?  First, reduce water by 50%.  Then get air back into the soil.
>
>Aeration cores are the best bet.  Fill the holes with fungal-dominated
>aerobic compost, with VAM spores, because we've lost the beneficial fungi
>completely in that soil.
>
>It was the soil biology analysis that let us know exactly what was wrong,
>and how to fix it.
>
>Often turf people just apply humic acids in a similar condition, and hope
>that was all that was needed.  But then a  month later, you know it wasnt'
>adequate to fix the problem.  The grass is in serious trouble.
>
>If it is economically worth while, running a check and knowing what needs
>to be done solves the problem before the plants die.
>
>It always comes down to a question of cost - benefit ratio.  Do you spend
>the money to do the testing BEFORE the plant response lets you know
>something is wrong?
>
>Depends on how much money will be made on that crop.  If the crop isn't
>that big a deal, and you can afford to lose productivity, or maybe lose the
>crop all together, then letting the plant tell you something is wrong is
>ok.
>
>But if the loss of part or all of the crop would be economically devasting,
>then doing the soil biology, and chemistry, analysis is worthwhile.
>
>If you can afford the consequence of guesswork, then guess.  If the
>potential improvement in production is more than the cost of the testing,
>then it makes sense to test, and then correct the problem.
>
>If you know your land, and the impact that the things you do to it have on
>the biology, then you aren't doing guesswork.
>
>What I'd really like to do is have people add manures, different kinds of
>compost, different products, and then test to see what the affect is on the
>biology.  Then we'd KNOW what adding these materials actually is.  In the
>future we'd just need to assess the quality of the compost, or manure, and
>we'd know what effect the additions have on the soil.  Less and less
>testing would be required with time, and we'd have a better idea what to do
>in different situations to really fix a soil to grow what you want it to
>grow.  So, here's hoping for that kind of knowledge base!
>
>I'd love to work with you to train people in the Phillipiines to do the
>kind of testing that we do.
>
>Elaine Ingham
>President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
>SFI Corvallis, OR
>SFI Port Jefferson, NY
>SFI Lismore, NSW, Australia
>SFI Hilversum, The Netherlands
>SFI Cambridge, New Zealand
>www.soilfoodweb.com


_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus


From - Mon Apr 21 18:53:38 2003
X-UIDL: 347345808
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 10000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A0363A5600B4; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 18:27:02 -0400
Received: from intrex.net [209.42.230.16] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.13) id A0381194028C; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 18:27:04 -0400
Message-ID: <3EA49D51.6030307@intrex.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 18:39:29 -0700
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
Organization: http://market-farming.com  --  Venaura Farm
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To:  lfl@intrex.net
Subject: BioImages - Virtual Fieldguide (UK)
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
 boundary="------------090604060602070301030607"
X-Declude-Sender: lfl@intrex.net [209.42.230.16]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. Whitelisted
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347345808

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------090604060602070301030607
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


<http://www.bioimages.org.uk/>

-- 
L.F.London
lfl@intrex.net
http://market-farming.com
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech

--------------090604060602070301030607
Content-Type: text/html;
 name="www.bioimages.org.uk/"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline;
 filename="www.bioimages.org.uk/"
Content-Base: "http://www.bioimages.org.uk/"
Content-Location: "http://www.bioimages.org.uk/"

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META NAME="GENERATOR" CONTENT="Adobe PageMill 2.0 Mac">
<TITLE>BioImages - Virtual Fieldguide (UK)</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<H2 ALIGN="CENTER"><FONT SIZE=+3>BioImages - Virtual Field-Guide (UK)</FONT></H2>
<P ALIGN="CENTER"><FONT SIZE=+3>http://www.bioimages.org.uk/</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=+1>Welcome to BioImages, the Virtual Field-Guide for UK Bio-diversity.</FONT></P>

<P><I><FONT SIZE=+1>Content</FONT></I><FONT SIZE=+1>: This site offers a large selection of pictures of Natural History objects, mostly British in origin.</FONT></P>

<P><I><FONT SIZE=+1>Purpose</FONT></I><FONT SIZE=+1>: The images are presented to illustrate biodiversity and as an aid to identification. While pictures alone are generally NOT sufficient for identification, by showing different stages, states and views of the organisms more information can be offered than is available in field-guides.</FONT></P>

<P><I><FONT SIZE=+1>How to find your way around</FONT></I><FONT SIZE=+1>: BioImages is arranged in the normal biological classification (or at least my interpretation of it.) This is a hierarchical system with species grouped in genera, genera in families, families in orders and so on up to kingdoms and superkingdoms. <A HREF=HTML/T1.HTM>Living Things</A> takes you to the top of the classification. tree.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=+1><I>Searching:</I> BioImages is indexed by Google
 <!-- Search Google -->
<center>
<FORM method=GET action=http://www.google.com/custom>
<TABLE bgcolor=#FFFFFF cellspacing=0 border=0>
<tr valign=top><td>
<A HREF=http://www.google.com/search>
<IMG SRC=http://www.google.com/logos/Logo_40wht.gif border=0 ALT=Google align=middle></A></FONT>
</td>
<td>
<INPUT TYPE=text name=q size=31 maxlength=255 value="">
<INPUT type=submit name=sa VALUE="Google Search">
<INPUT type=hidden name=cof VALUE="AH:center;AWFID:10f215c878735127;">
<font face=arial,sans-serif size=-1>
<input type=hidden name=domains value="www.bioimages.org.uk">
<br>
<input type=radio name=sitesearch value="">
Search WWW
<input type=radio name=sitesearch value="www.bioimages.org.uk" checked> 
Search www.bioimages.org.uk </font><br>
</td></tr></TABLE>
</FORM>
</center>
<!-- Search Google -->
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=+1><I>Browsing:</I> If you just want to browse, <A HREF=HTML/SHORTCUT.HTM>Shortcuts</A> takes you to a list of links to groups of organisms. You can then go directly to the group your are interested in. Then follow the links down to the species you want to see.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=+1>At the foot of each page in the classification hierarchy is a row of links to take you back up the hierarchy. Using these and the "down" links in the body of the page you can navigate sideways.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=+1>This is a large site containing (Mar 03) 30,000 images depicting 3000 species. The images include habitat shots, close-ups, macro shots and microscopy. Enjoy!</FONT></P>

<P><B>BioImages.org.uk</B> has no connection with 
<A HREF=http://www.nih.go.jp/yoken/bioimaging/journal.html>Bioimages</A>
- the official journal of the Bioimaging Society nor with 
<A HREF=http://www.bioimage.org>BioImage</A>
- A European Initiative for a New Database of Multidimensional Biological Images.

<BR><Center>
<P><TABLE CELLPADDING=10 BORDER=5 COLS=3>
<TR><TD><A HREF=HTML/T1.HTM>Living Things<BR>(The Classification Hierarchy)</A>
<TD><A HREF=HTML/SHORTCUT.HTM>Shortcuts<BR>(The Easy Way in)</A>
<TD><A HREF=LINKS.HTM>Links<BR>Related Sites and Discussion Groups</A>
<TD><A HREF=CRIGHT.HTM>Copyright<BR>and Conditions of Use</A>
<TD><A HREF=HISTORY.HTM>Site History</A>
<TD><A HREF=Technical.HTM>Digital Imaging</A>
</TABLE>
</CENTER>
</BODY>
</HTML>


--------------090604060602070301030607--




From - Sat Apr 26 14:13:35 2003
X-UIDL: 347346077
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A62EC7FC00DA; Sat, 26 Apr 2003 11:30:54 -0400
Received: by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix, from userid 1001)
	id BED1BB49A0; Sat, 26 Apr 2003 11:31:31 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.68])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 14159B4988
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Sat, 26 Apr 2003 11:31:31 -0400 (EDT)
X-eGroups-Return: sentto-7527208-3148-1051371049-lfl=intrex.net@returns.groups.yahoo.com
Received: from [66.218.67.201] by n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Apr 2003 15:30:51 -0000
X-Sender: Soilfoodweb@aol.com
X-Apparently-To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 26 Apr 2003 15:30:49 -0000
Received: (qmail 88138 invoked from network); 26 Apr 2003 15:30:47 -0000
Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216)
  by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Apr 2003 15:30:47 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d03.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.35)
  by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Apr 2003 15:30:48 -0000
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com
	by imo-d03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.22.) id r.1ac.13e124e9 (15974)
	 for <compost_tea@yahoogroups.com>; Sat, 26 Apr 2003 11:30:31 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from  aol.com (mow-m02.webmail.aol.com [64.12.184.130]) by air-id10.mx.aol.com (v93.8) with ESMTP id MAILINID101-3e663eaaa6172f4; Sat, 26 Apr 2003 11:30:31 -0400
To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Message-ID: <1D686253.498A4C78.404D8829@aol.com>
X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0
From: soilfoodweb@aol.com
X-Yahoo-Profile: soilfoodweb
MIME-Version: 1.0
Mailing-List: list compost_tea@yahoogroups.com; contact compost_tea-owner@yahoogroups.com
Delivered-To: mailing list compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Precedence: bulk
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:compost_tea-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 11:30:31 -0400
Subject: Re: [compost_tea] Holding time for tea
Reply-To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Spam-itxsa: -8.2
X-Note: Total weight is 1. NOABUSE
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347346077

I have been asked, off the list serve, to comment on how long you can hold tea.

IF you make sure that oxygen is maintained in aerobic ranges, you CAN hold tea for up to 5 days.  

BUT please recognize that during that time, you very well may select for an ever-diminishing set of organism diversity.   The reason for the 5 day cut-off is that by that time, you are deal with a limited set of microbe diversity.  

If you add any foods into that "being-held" tea, oxygen will PLUMMET to very low levels.  You have bunch of activated, starving bacteria and fungi in your 2 to 3 day old tea, and they will be SAVAGE about any added food, using it very rapidly, and with a huge oxygen demand.  Ask Bob of Bob's Brewers about his experience with this!  The oxygen demand can be so extreme that it will result in loss of the beneficial fungi, protozoa and nematodes from the brew quite rapidly.  Within 4 to 6 hours.  

So, if circumstances force you to hold tea, do it with caution, add only minimal amounts of food (no more than a teaspoon or 20 ml, for example) after 24 hours.  It can be done, but with extreme care.  

If you tank mix nutrients into your tea, you have the same situation, so remember that you have only a few hours - perhaps only 4 to 6 hours - to get the tea out before the beneficial fungi have been consumed.  

Of course, once your organisms have gone flying through the air in droplets, the aeration problem has been alleviated.  The thin layer of tea on a leaf surface will be nicely aerobic.  Diffusion is quite adequate on the leaf surface.  

The test to determine whether aeration was adequate is to PUT THE TEA INTO A SEALED CONTAINER AND LEAVE AT ROOM TEMPERATURE OVERNIGHT.  Open the container and smell at 24 hours.  If ok, your tea was likely ok.  IF stink can be detected, do another tea.  

Compost tea is meant to be made, and applied right away.  There is no point in holding it, as you start to lose diversity after 48 to 72 hours.  Hold it only if you have no choice.  With proper maintenance, tea can be held up to 5 days.  But then, apply it someplace that you don't care if the results are a bit funky.  I personally let the weed patch have it.  You are helping diversity in the soil, which will ultimately will select against the weeds.

OK?

Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
SFI Corvallis, OR
SFI Port Jefferson, NY
SFI Lismore, NSW, Australia
SFI Hilversum, The Netherlands
SFI Cambridge, New Zealand
www.soilfoodweb.com

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Get A Free Psychic Reading!
Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/cjB9SD/od7FAA/AG3JAA/0PSxlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
compost_tea-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 




From - Mon Apr 21 19:59:15 2003
X-UIDL: 347345821
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A21B512000AC; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 19:43:23 -0400
Received: by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix, from userid 1001)
	id 2B8FDB491A; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 19:43:39 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (lists.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DFD1B495E
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 19:43:38 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0001636F@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 19:43:19 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 14537 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 21 Apr 2003 19:43:19 -0400
Received: from mail.ncat.org (du132.194.onewest.net) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu
          (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id
          <0.0001636E@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 19:43:19 -0400
Received: from ncat.org ([130.184.56.238]) (authenticated) by mail.ncat.org
          (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h3LNhIx28177 for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 17:43:18 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <20030421175444.4359.qmail@web40510.mail.yahoo.com>
            <002301c30834$4330f770$a103fea9@jeffu9jv0ylyde>
            <3EA479F6.7020002@intrex.net>
            <003b01c30848$858f3b90$a103fea9@jeffu9jv0ylyde>
            <3EA4983C.7020108@intrex.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <3EA4832C.BE988C25@ncat.org>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 18:47:56 -0500
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: Steve Diver <steved@NCAT.ORG>
Subject: Re: colloidal clay and rock phosphate
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Spam-itxsa: -6.6
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347345821

Robert's description of his wife's batch of rice as a
substrate to capture and culture beneficial microorganisms
living in the forest floor is IM.

EM, in contrast, is only made by master brewers. It is a
specific set of microbes and microbial brewing process.

Yet EM and IM are used in a similar way in terms of spraying
on piles of manures, composts, and animal bedding to enhance
microbial remediation...  or to inoculate soils and plants
with beneficial microbes, bioactive substances, and liquid
nutrients.

Steve Diver

>


From - Mon Apr 21 12:45:56 2003
X-UIDL: 347345766
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A11B719F00A0; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:41:15 -0400
Received: by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix, from userid 1001)
	id 0FE81B48B6; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:41:27 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu [152.2.210.119])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8C12B4925
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:41:26 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id F30242003D; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:41:11 -0400 (EDT)
Delivered-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from mail.ncat.org (unknown [65.19.194.132])
	by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDBB52003A
	for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>;
	Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:41:08 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from ncat.org ([130.184.56.238])
	(authenticated)
	by mail.ncat.org (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h3LFf7x18770
	for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 09:41:08 -0600
Message-ID: <3EA41228.1FE9BB6B@ncat.org>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 10:45:44 -0500
From: Steve Diver <steved@ncat.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Subject: [permaculture] BioImages - Virtual Field-Guide (UK)
X-BeenThere: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1
Precedence: list
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: permaculture <permaculture.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
	<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture>
List-Post: <mailto:permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
	<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
Sender: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
Errors-To: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Spam-itxsa: 0
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347345766

BioImages - Virtual Field-Guide (UK) | BioImages.org.uk
http://www.bioimages.org.uk/

3,187 Taxa
30,113 Images

"BioImages (VFG-UK) is programmatically built from
a 4th Dimension Database."

Another database example with lots of plants,
insects, and life form photos.

The author made extensive use of a digitial camera to
collect photo images of field specimans, as well as
a flatbed scanner to compile "herbarium" samples of
leaves and flowers and mushrooms in digital color.

Shortcut to Taxonomy / Phyla / Database fields.
http://www.bioimages.org.uk/HTML/SHORTCUT.HTM

Regards,
Steve Diver


_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture


From - Fri Sep 06 11:53:35 2002
X-UIDL: 322728712
X-Mozilla-Status: 0013
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AE0EDF7F0084; Fri, 06 Sep 2002 11:47:26 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id ADA562FD005C; Fri, 06 Sep 2002 11:45:50 -0400
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id SAL7H09Q; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 11:45:23 -0400
Received: FROM nt-task BY nt-web ; Fri Sep 06 11:48:03 2002 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8d) with spool id 134702 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Fri, 6 Sep 2002 11:48:02 -0400
Received: from 130.184.56.248 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0d) with
          TCP; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 11:48:01 -0400
Received: from ncatark.uark.edu ([130.184.56.238]) by ncatark.uark.edu
          (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g86FpCX22627 for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 10:51:12 -0500 (CDT)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <3D78E95A.7090901@intrex.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ncatark.uark.edu id
                      g86FpCX22627
Message-ID:  <3D78D021.2C32906F@ncatark.uark.edu>
Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 2002 10:56:18 -0500
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Steve Diver <steved@NCATARK.UARK.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Glomalin, the Unsung Hero of Carbon Storage
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [209.42.192.250]
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@[209.42.192.246]>
X-UIDL: 322728712
Status: U

Also see:

"Glomalin=97Soil's Superglue"
Agricultural Research magazine | October 1997
http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/oct97/glomalin1097.htm

And especially, the ARS web page on Glomalin and
Sara Wright's work at:

Glomalin - an Arbuscular Mycorrhizal Glycoprotein
http://www.barc.usda.gov/anri/sasl/glomalin/glomalin.html

Of special interest is the USDA brochure, a 5-page PDF:

Glomalin, A Manageable Soil Glue
http://www.barc.usda.gov/anri/sasl/glomalin/brochure.pdf

Best,
Steve Diver


"Lawrence F. London, Jr." wrote:

> ----------
> From: ARS News Service <NewsService@ars.usda.gov>
> Reply-To: ARS News Service <NewsService@ars.usda.gov>
> Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 09:15:03 -0400
> To: ARS News subscriber <lonrom@hevanet.com>
> Subject: Glomalin, the Unsung Hero of Carbon Storage
>
> STORY LEAD:
> Glomalin, the Unsung Hero of Carbon Storage
> ___________________________________________
>
> ARS News Service
> Agricultural Research Service, USDA
> Don Comis, (301) 504-1625, comis@ars.usda.gov
> September 6, 2002
> ___________________________________________
>
> Glomalin, a recently discovered major component of soil organic matter,
> stores about a third of the world's soil carbon, offsetting industrial
> pollution. This is according to a recent collaborative study by scienti=
sts
> with the Agricultural Research Service and the University of Maryland
> (U-MD) at College Park. The study was partially funded by the U.S.
> Department of Energy.
>
> The study was done by Kristine A. Nichols, a U-MD soil science Ph.D.
> candidate and technician at ARS' Sustainable Agricultural Systems
> Laboratory in Beltsville, Md., along with colleagues Sara F. Wright and=
 E.
> Kudjo Dzantor. Wright, an ARS soil scientist, discovered glomalin in 19=
96,
> and Dzantor is a U-MD soil scientist.
>
> Glomalin is a sticky protein produced by root-dwelling fungi and slough=
ed
> into soil as roots grow. By gluing soil particles and organic matter
> together, it stabilizes soil and keeps carbon from escaping into the
> atmosphere. In an earlier study, Wright found that glomalin serves as a
> corrective to global warming because it increases with carbon dioxide
> levels.
>
> Nichols and colleagues detected large amounts of glomalin in soils from
> four states, showing it to be a major part of organic matter. The gloma=
lin
> weighed 2 to 24 times as much as humic acid, which was previously thoug=
ht
> to store the most carbon. But Nichols found that humic acid only stored=
 8
> percent of total soil carbon compared to glomalin's 27 percent.
>
> Wright has found glomalin in soils from around the world, ranging in
> weight from less than 1 milligram per gram (mg/g) of sample to more tha=
n
> 100 mg/g. She found the highest levels in Hawaiian and Japanese soils,
> indicating that some soils might be able to store large amounts of carb=
on
> in glomalin with a turnover rate of 7 to 42 years. She is on a team
> investigating underground carbon storage in tropical forests, thought t=
o
> be major carbon reservoirs.
>
> For more on glomalin, see the September 2002 issue of Agricultural
> Research magazine, online at:
> http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/sep02/soil0902.htm
>
> ARS is the U.S. Department of Agriculture's chief scientific research
> agency.
> ___________________________________________
> * This is one of the news reports that ARS Information distributes to
> subscribers on weekdays.
> * Start, stop or change an e-mail subscription at
> www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/subscribe.htm
> * The latest news is always at www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/thelatest.htm
> * NewsService@ars.usda.gov | www.ars.usda.gov/is
> * Phone (301) 504-1638 | fax (301) 504-1648

.

From - Tue Aug 20 11:31:34 2002
X-UIDL: 322727950
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id ADC6319D0142; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 11:18:30 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id ADA44D6005C; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 11:17:56 -0400
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id QXGA3X2K; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 11:17:23 -0400
Received: FROM nt-task BY nt-web ; Tue Aug 20 11:20:26 2002 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8d) with spool id 114245 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Tue, 20 Aug 2002 11:20:25 -0400
Received: from 130.184.56.141 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0d) with
          TCP; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 11:20:24 -0400
Received: from ncatark.uark.edu ([130.184.56.238]) by ncatark.uark.edu
          (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g7KFN6Q21970 for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:23:06 -0500 (CDT)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <16578462453.20020815203216@gmx.net>
            <044b01c2450f$fd8764d0$056fd63f@home>
            <200208171402.g7HE2hSj011948@grits.crosslink.net>
            <073501c2464f$e87a8720$73673bcb@dmflkwfouhswsa>
            <3D5F6C29.43D8C95E@earthlink.net>
            <081201c24790$b328bf50$73673bcb@dmflkwfouhswsa>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID:  <3D625FCD.78FB709D@ncatark.uark.edu>
Date:         Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:27:09 -0500
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Steve Diver <steved@NCATARK.UARK.EDU>
Subject:      Re: cations + chelation + amino acids
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [209.42.192.250]
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@[209.42.192.246]>
X-UIDL: 322727950
Status: U

Was.....  Re: Low Tech Soil Health Methodologies for Farmers

David Menne wrote:

> Because alkali metals, and a goodly proportion [viz the unchelated] alkali
> earth metals occur as cations [demonstably by various physical phenomena] in
> aqueous systems and not as whole molecules. Single charge cations of course
> by definition cannot form chelates ["held by twin bonding"], despite what a
> lot of the fringe nutritional health product supply industry claim.

Well, I see that monovalent potassium is among the amino acid
chelated mineral products at Albion Laboratories.  The Metasolates
line of foliar fertilization products are certified organic.

See:

Albion Laboratories
http://www.albionlabs.com

A related site that comes to mind when amino acids and foliar
fertilizers come up in organic fertilization is Delbon in France,
supplying liquid fertilizer products like Protaminal geared to foliar
fertilization and fertigation.

Delbon - The specialist in environmentally-friendly liquid fertilizers
http://www.delbon.com/main/index-us.htm
        The technical glossary, fertilization files, crop files, and amino
        acid summary are especially noteworthy.

Steve Diver

.

From - Wed Aug 21 12:31:34 2002
X-UIDL: 322727974
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AE521571010A; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 12:22:42 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AE21B4F8018A; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 12:21:53 -0400
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id RLKT446M; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 12:21:28 -0400
Received: FROM nt-task BY nt-web ; Wed Aug 21 12:24:33 2002 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8d) with spool id 115108 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Wed, 21 Aug 2002 12:24:31 -0400
Received: from 130.184.56.248 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0d) with
          TCP; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 12:24:31 -0400
Received: from ncatark.uark.edu ([130.184.56.238]) by ncatark.uark.edu
          (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g7LGRCQ04344 for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 11:27:12 -0500 (CDT)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ncatark.uark.edu id
                      g7LGRCQ04344
Message-ID:  <3D63C055.F6953FBF@ncatark.uark.edu>
Date:         Wed, 21 Aug 2002 11:31:17 -0500
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Steve Diver <steved@NCATARK.UARK.EDU>
Subject:      Agriculture biodiversity at UNEP-BPSP
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [209.42.192.250]
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@[209.42.192.246]>
X-UIDL: 322727974
Status: U

Here's a resource for your sustainable agriculture toolbox,
relating to agriculture biodiversity.

Steve Diver
ATTRA

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D
Managing Agricultural Resources for Biodiversity Conservation:
A Guide to Best Practices
http://www.unep.org/bpsp/Agrobiodiversity/agrobiodiversity%20thematic/agb=
ioguide.pdf

        78-page PDF

By Barbara Gemmill, 2001
Environmental Liaison Centre International, Nairobi, Kenya

With Support from:

Biodiversity Planning Support Programme (BPSP)
Global Environment Facility (GEF)
United Nations Development Programme (UNDP)
United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP)

Nice layout, summary, and resource listings for the following topics

1. Principles for Conserving Farm Genetic Resources
2. Principles for Conserving Agricultural Ecosystem Services
3. Principles for Conserving Biodiverse Agricultural Landscapes

Source:

UNEP-BPSP Thematic Studies
Integration of Biodiversity into National Agriculture Sectors
http://www.unep.org/bpsp/HTML%20files/TS-Agriculture.html

Also see:

2. National Experiences with Integrating Biodiversity into the
   Agricultural Sector: 6 Regional Case Studies
http://www.unep.org/bpsp/HTML%20files/TS-Agriculture2.html

3. Scientific Reviews of National Experiences and Approaches:
   7 Expert Reviews
http://www.unep.org/bpsp/HTML%20files/TS-Agriculture3.html

4. Managing Agricultural Resources for Biodiversity Conservation:
   Annotated Bibliography
http://www.unep.org/bpsp/Agrobiodiversity/agrobiodiversity%20thematic/agb=
iblio.pdf

        71-page PDF

5. List of Relevant Web-based Resources on Agrobiodiversity
http://www.unep.org/bpsp/Agrobiodiversity/agrobiodiversity%20thematic/web=
-basedbiblio.pdf

        18-page PDF

The Bibliography provides this background material:

One of the outcomes of the RIO SUMMIT (United Nations Conference
On environment and Development) of 1992 was the signing of the
Convention on Biological Diversity, which has now been ratified by
over 100 countries. By ratifying this convention, countries commit to
implementing the agreements and programme of work as it is
developed through the =93Conferences of Parties=94, which occur more or
less every two years.

When the Convention was originally drafted, agricultural biodiversity
was not included as an aspect of biodiversity. But such a clamour has
been raised as to the importance of agrobiodiversity, and so much
attention has been drawn to such trend as: the precipitous loss of
landraces of cultivated crops, and the very large proportion of
biodiversity, in general, that occurs in human-dominated landscapes.
As a consequence, agricultural biodiversity was included in the scope
of the convention, and FAO was given the mandate as overall
taskmaster for the subject.

To a large degree, the focus on agrobiodiversity up until now has been
on conservation and utilization of plant genetic resources, and its
concomitant issues of access to genetic resources (for example, by
plant breeders or pharmaceutical researchers) and fair and equitable
benefit sharing (with communities or indigenous peoples who have
shared or shepherded such resources over time).

However, the Convention on Biological Diversity has recognized its
need to liaise thoroughly with the scientific community and through
this liaison, with respect to agricultural biodiversity, a number of
other thematic focal areas have been established. The present list
of areas are:

Pollinators.
Soil biodiversity
Biodiversity that provides mitigation of pests and diseases
Crop genetic resources
Livestock genetic resources
Diversity at the landscape level
Wild biodiversity in agroecosystems

It is now accepted that the =93Programme of work=94 of the Convention
on Biological Diversity should include the conservation, sustainable
use and benefit sharing of all of these focal areas.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D

.

From - Fri Sep 06 11:53:35 2002
X-UIDL: 322728712
X-Mozilla-Status: 0013
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AE0EDF7F0084; Fri, 06 Sep 2002 11:47:26 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id ADA562FD005C; Fri, 06 Sep 2002 11:45:50 -0400
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id SAL7H09Q; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 11:45:23 -0400
Received: FROM nt-task BY nt-web ; Fri Sep 06 11:48:03 2002 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8d) with spool id 134702 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Fri, 6 Sep 2002 11:48:02 -0400
Received: from 130.184.56.248 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0d) with
          TCP; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 11:48:01 -0400
Received: from ncatark.uark.edu ([130.184.56.238]) by ncatark.uark.edu
          (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g86FpCX22627 for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 10:51:12 -0500 (CDT)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <3D78E95A.7090901@intrex.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ncatark.uark.edu id
                      g86FpCX22627
Message-ID:  <3D78D021.2C32906F@ncatark.uark.edu>
Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 2002 10:56:18 -0500
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Steve Diver <steved@NCATARK.UARK.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Glomalin, the Unsung Hero of Carbon Storage
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [209.42.192.250]
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@[209.42.192.246]>
X-UIDL: 322728712
Status: U

Also see:

"Glomalin=97Soil's Superglue"
Agricultural Research magazine | October 1997
http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/oct97/glomalin1097.htm

And especially, the ARS web page on Glomalin and
Sara Wright's work at:

Glomalin - an Arbuscular Mycorrhizal Glycoprotein
http://www.barc.usda.gov/anri/sasl/glomalin/glomalin.html

Of special interest is the USDA brochure, a 5-page PDF:

Glomalin, A Manageable Soil Glue
http://www.barc.usda.gov/anri/sasl/glomalin/brochure.pdf

Best,
Steve Diver


"Lawrence F. London, Jr." wrote:

> ----------
> From: ARS News Service <NewsService@ars.usda.gov>
> Reply-To: ARS News Service <NewsService@ars.usda.gov>
> Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 09:15:03 -0400
> To: ARS News subscriber <lonrom@hevanet.com>
> Subject: Glomalin, the Unsung Hero of Carbon Storage
>
> STORY LEAD:
> Glomalin, the Unsung Hero of Carbon Storage
> ___________________________________________
>
> ARS News Service
> Agricultural Research Service, USDA
> Don Comis, (301) 504-1625, comis@ars.usda.gov
> September 6, 2002
> ___________________________________________
>
> Glomalin, a recently discovered major component of soil organic matter,
> stores about a third of the world's soil carbon, offsetting industrial
> pollution. This is according to a recent collaborative study by scienti=
sts
> with the Agricultural Research Service and the University of Maryland
> (U-MD) at College Park. The study was partially funded by the U.S.
> Department of Energy.
>
> The study was done by Kristine A. Nichols, a U-MD soil science Ph.D.
> candidate and technician at ARS' Sustainable Agricultural Systems
> Laboratory in Beltsville, Md., along with colleagues Sara F. Wright and=
 E.
> Kudjo Dzantor. Wright, an ARS soil scientist, discovered glomalin in 19=
96,
> and Dzantor is a U-MD soil scientist.
>
> Glomalin is a sticky protein produced by root-dwelling fungi and slough=
ed
> into soil as roots grow. By gluing soil particles and organic matter
> together, it stabilizes soil and keeps carbon from escaping into the
> atmosphere. In an earlier study, Wright found that glomalin serves as a
> corrective to global warming because it increases with carbon dioxide
> levels.
>
> Nichols and colleagues detected large amounts of glomalin in soils from
> four states, showing it to be a major part of organic matter. The gloma=
lin
> weighed 2 to 24 times as much as humic acid, which was previously thoug=
ht
> to store the most carbon. But Nichols found that humic acid only stored=
 8
> percent of total soil carbon compared to glomalin's 27 percent.
>
> Wright has found glomalin in soils from around the world, ranging in
> weight from less than 1 milligram per gram (mg/g) of sample to more tha=
n
> 100 mg/g. She found the highest levels in Hawaiian and Japanese soils,
> indicating that some soils might be able to store large amounts of carb=
on
> in glomalin with a turnover rate of 7 to 42 years. She is on a team
> investigating underground carbon storage in tropical forests, thought t=
o
> be major carbon reservoirs.
>
> For more on glomalin, see the September 2002 issue of Agricultural
> Research magazine, online at:
> http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/sep02/soil0902.htm
>
> ARS is the U.S. Department of Agriculture's chief scientific research
> agency.
> ___________________________________________
> * This is one of the news reports that ARS Information distributes to
> subscribers on weekdays.
> * Start, stop or change an e-mail subscription at
> www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/subscribe.htm
> * The latest news is always at www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/thelatest.htm
> * NewsService@ars.usda.gov | www.ars.usda.gov/is
> * Phone (301) 504-1638 | fax (301) 504-1648

.

From - Fri Sep 06 14:33:06 2002
X-UIDL: 322728718
X-Mozilla-Status: 1003
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A36B34A4007A; Fri, 06 Sep 2002 14:26:51 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A302BD6601CC; Fri, 06 Sep 2002 14:25:06 -0400
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id SAL72MFW; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 14:24:50 -0400
Received: FROM nt-task BY nt-web ; Fri Sep 06 14:27:27 2002 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8d) with spool id 135366 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Fri, 6 Sep 2002 14:27:26 -0400
Received: from 130.184.56.248 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0d) with
          TCP; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 14:27:26 -0400
Received: from ncatark.uark.edu ([130.184.56.238]) by ncatark.uark.edu
          (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g86IUaX25381 for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 13:30:36 -0500 (CDT)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID:  <3D78F57F.B04568BA@ncatark.uark.edu>
Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 2002 13:35:43 -0500
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Steve Diver <steved@NCATARK.UARK.EDU>
Subject:      Symbiotic mycorrhizal fungi resources
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [209.42.192.250]
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@[209.42.192.246]>
X-UIDL: 322728718
Status: U

"Lawrence F. London, Jr." wrote:

> Topics I am interested in learning more about include:

> mycorrhizal fungi
> ectomycorrhizal fungi
> endomycorrhizal fungi

See my resource listing; expanded and updated December 2001.
It lists mycorrhizal suppliers and features key web- and print-based
resources on mycorrhizae; some fascinating knowledge exists
amongst all these resource links.

Symbiotic Mycorrhizal Fungi:  Quarterback of the Microbial
Herd
http://ncatark.uark.edu/~steved/mycorrhizae.html

Want to go even deeper, check out these rough web
notes containing additional resources; some very good;
supplemental to the above resource list.

Index of /~steved/archives/mycorrhizae
http://ncatark.uark.edu/~steved/archives/mycorrhizae/

I was teaching a workshop and found it helpful to
provide this analogy.  It may not be 100% botanically
accurate in every situation, but it helps to get
people into mycorrhizae-land fairly quickly.

Mycorrhizae is the root-fungus association, not the fungus
itself.   Though, it is accurate to say mycorrhizal fungi
to indicate their ability to form symbiotic mycorrhizal associations.

Think of lichen growing on trees.  Lichen is an
association of algae and fungi, an above-ground
symbiosis.  The fusion of these two organisms
actually creates a new organism that has tissue
growth which looks distinctly different from the
parent organisms.

Mycorrhizae is an association of mycorrhizal
fungi and plant roots, a below-ground symbiosis.
Some mycorrhizal associations actually grow a
form of fused root-fungus tissue that extends a few
millimeters into the surrounding soil, thus expanding
the plant root rhizosphere and therefore the plant's
ability to acquire water and nutrients.

Here's another one.  In one of those web note
resources, a forestry publication from Canada,
it says that a typical forest in British Columbia
may contain 4,000 to 5,000 species of
fungus that form mycorrhizal associations
with tree root systems.

Best,
Steve Diver
ATTRA

.

From - Fri Sep 06 14:49:20 2002
X-UIDL: 322728723
X-Mozilla-Status: 1001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A6B6BACA0040; Fri, 06 Sep 2002 14:40:54 -0400
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A64C2CB70050; Fri, 06 Sep 2002 14:39:08 -0400
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id SAL7238Z; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 14:38:57 -0400
Received: FROM nt-task BY nt-web ; Fri Sep 06 14:41:36 2002 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8d) with spool id 135398 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Fri, 6 Sep 2002 14:41:36 -0400
Received: from 130.184.56.248 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0d) with
          TCP; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 14:41:35 -0400
Received: from ncatark.uark.edu ([130.184.56.238]) by ncatark.uark.edu
          (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g86IikX25675 for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 13:44:46 -0500 (CDT)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <3D78E95A.7090901@intrex.net> <3D78D021.2C32906F@ncatark.uark.edu>
            <3D78FDC6.3010700@intrex.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ncatark.uark.edu id
                      g86IikX25675
Message-ID:  <3D78F8D1.4D3D852B@ncatark.uark.edu>
Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 2002 13:49:53 -0500
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Steve Diver <steved@NCATARK.UARK.EDU>
Subject:      Permaculture guilds
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [209.42.192.250]
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@[209.42.192.246]>
X-UIDL: 322728723
Status: U

"Lawrence F. London, Jr." wrote:

> I, too, am interested in guilds, the permaculture concept. I would be i=
nterested in
> reading a definition of guilds and seeing websites with examples of the=
m.

Yes it will be very helpful to get a clearer idea with
accompanying examples of permaculture guilds and how they
relate to or differ from ecological guilds; how they can be
designed and established; expected and hoped-for results.

Agroforestry, permaculture, polyculture, intercropping,
mixed cropping, farmscaping, planned biodiversity,
understory, overstory, multi-story, stereo farming, canopy
layers, riparian buffer strips, border strips, shelterbelts,
hedgerows, alleycropping, forest farming, forest gardens,
multi-tierred, multi-layered.... and so forth; all these
inter-cropping systems that involve perennials and annuals
and woody plants and herbaceous plant mixtures can
probably benefit or generate additional synergy from the
concept of a permaculture guild.

Here's one item on polyculture that came to mind. The
summary page below points to a 115-page PDF report.
The acknowledgement section provides an interesting
story about Bill Mollison that provides insight to the
origins of permaculture with its emphasis on ecological
design.

"In November 1959, watching marsupial browsers in the
floristically simple rainforests of Tasmania, I wrote in my
diary: =91I believe that we could build systems that would
function as well as this one does.=92"  .....  Bill Mollison

Polyculture Production Principles, Benefits and Risks
of Multiple Cropping Land Management Systems for
Australia
RIRDC | Australia | May 2001
http://www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/ORG/01-34sum.html

Best,
Steve Diver
ATTRA

.

From - Mon Apr 21 12:45:56 2003
X-UIDL: 347345766
X-Mozilla-Status: 0005
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A11B719F00A0; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:41:15 -0400
Received: by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix, from userid 1001)
	id 0FE81B48B6; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:41:27 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu [152.2.210.119])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8C12B4925
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:41:26 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id F30242003D; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:41:11 -0400 (EDT)
Delivered-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from mail.ncat.org (unknown [65.19.194.132])
	by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDBB52003A
	for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>;
	Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:41:08 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from ncat.org ([130.184.56.238])
	(authenticated)
	by mail.ncat.org (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h3LFf7x18770
	for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 09:41:08 -0600
Message-ID: <3EA41228.1FE9BB6B@ncat.org>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 10:45:44 -0500
From: Steve Diver <steved@ncat.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Subject: [permaculture] BioImages - Virtual Field-Guide (UK)
X-BeenThere: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1
Precedence: list
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: permaculture <permaculture.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
	<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture>
List-Post: <mailto:permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
	<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
Sender: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
Errors-To: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Spam-itxsa: 0
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347345766

BioImages - Virtual Field-Guide (UK) | BioImages.org.uk
http://www.bioimages.org.uk/

3,187 Taxa
30,113 Images

"BioImages (VFG-UK) is programmatically built from
a 4th Dimension Database."

Another database example with lots of plants,
insects, and life form photos.

The author made extensive use of a digitial camera to
collect photo images of field specimans, as well as
a flatbed scanner to compile "herbarium" samples of
leaves and flowers and mushrooms in digital color.

Shortcut to Taxonomy / Phyla / Database fields.
http://www.bioimages.org.uk/HTML/SHORTCUT.HTM

Regards,
Steve Diver


_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture


From - Mon Apr 21 19:59:15 2003
X-UIDL: 347345821
X-Mozilla-Status: 0015
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A21B512000AC; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 19:43:23 -0400
Received: by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix, from userid 1001)
	id 2B8FDB491A; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 19:43:39 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (lists.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DFD1B495E
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 19:43:38 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0001636F@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 19:43:19 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 14537 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 21 Apr 2003 19:43:19 -0400
Received: from mail.ncat.org (du132.194.onewest.net) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu
          (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id
          <0.0001636E@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 19:43:19 -0400
Received: from ncat.org ([130.184.56.238]) (authenticated) by mail.ncat.org
          (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h3LNhIx28177 for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 17:43:18 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <20030421175444.4359.qmail@web40510.mail.yahoo.com>
            <002301c30834$4330f770$a103fea9@jeffu9jv0ylyde>
            <3EA479F6.7020002@intrex.net>
            <003b01c30848$858f3b90$a103fea9@jeffu9jv0ylyde>
            <3EA4983C.7020108@intrex.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <3EA4832C.BE988C25@ncat.org>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 18:47:56 -0500
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: Steve Diver <steved@NCAT.ORG>
Subject: Re: colloidal clay and rock phosphate
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Spam-itxsa: -6.6
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347345821

Robert's description of his wife's batch of rice as a
substrate to capture and culture beneficial microorganisms
living in the forest floor is IM.

EM, in contrast, is only made by master brewers. It is a
specific set of microbes and microbial brewing process.

Yet EM and IM are used in a similar way in terms of spraying
on piles of manures, composts, and animal bedding to enhance
microbial remediation...  or to inoculate soils and plants
with beneficial microbes, bioactive substances, and liquid
nutrients.

Steve Diver

>


From - Mon Apr 21 12:45:56 2003
X-UIDL: 347345766
X-Mozilla-Status: 0005
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A11B719F00A0; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:41:15 -0400
Received: by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix, from userid 1001)
	id 0FE81B48B6; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:41:27 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu [152.2.210.119])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8C12B4925
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:41:26 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id F30242003D; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:41:11 -0400 (EDT)
Delivered-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from mail.ncat.org (unknown [65.19.194.132])
	by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDBB52003A
	for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>;
	Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:41:08 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from ncat.org ([130.184.56.238])
	(authenticated)
	by mail.ncat.org (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h3LFf7x18770
	for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 09:41:08 -0600
Message-ID: <3EA41228.1FE9BB6B@ncat.org>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 10:45:44 -0500
From: Steve Diver <steved@ncat.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Subject: [permaculture] BioImages - Virtual Field-Guide (UK)
X-BeenThere: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1
Precedence: list
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: permaculture <permaculture.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
	<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture>
List-Post: <mailto:permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
	<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
Sender: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
Errors-To: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Spam-itxsa: 0
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347345766

BioImages - Virtual Field-Guide (UK) | BioImages.org.uk
http://www.bioimages.org.uk/

3,187 Taxa
30,113 Images

"BioImages (VFG-UK) is programmatically built from
a 4th Dimension Database."

Another database example with lots of plants,
insects, and life form photos.

The author made extensive use of a digitial camera to
collect photo images of field specimans, as well as
a flatbed scanner to compile "herbarium" samples of
leaves and flowers and mushrooms in digital color.

Shortcut to Taxonomy / Phyla / Database fields.
http://www.bioimages.org.uk/HTML/SHORTCUT.HTM

Regards,
Steve Diver


_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture


From - Mon Apr 21 19:59:15 2003
X-UIDL: 347345821
X-Mozilla-Status: 0015
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A21B512000AC; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 19:43:23 -0400
Received: by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix, from userid 1001)
	id 2B8FDB491A; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 19:43:39 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (lists.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DFD1B495E
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 19:43:38 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0001636F@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 19:43:19 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 14537 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 21 Apr 2003 19:43:19 -0400
Received: from mail.ncat.org (du132.194.onewest.net) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu
          (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id
          <0.0001636E@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 19:43:19 -0400
Received: from ncat.org ([130.184.56.238]) (authenticated) by mail.ncat.org
          (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h3LNhIx28177 for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 17:43:18 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <20030421175444.4359.qmail@web40510.mail.yahoo.com>
            <002301c30834$4330f770$a103fea9@jeffu9jv0ylyde>
            <3EA479F6.7020002@intrex.net>
            <003b01c30848$858f3b90$a103fea9@jeffu9jv0ylyde>
            <3EA4983C.7020108@intrex.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <3EA4832C.BE988C25@ncat.org>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 18:47:56 -0500
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: Steve Diver <steved@NCAT.ORG>
Subject: Re: colloidal clay and rock phosphate
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Spam-itxsa: -6.6
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347345821

Robert's description of his wife's batch of rice as a
substrate to capture and culture beneficial microorganisms
living in the forest floor is IM.

EM, in contrast, is only made by master brewers. It is a
specific set of microbes and microbial brewing process.

Yet EM and IM are used in a similar way in terms of spraying
on piles of manures, composts, and animal bedding to enhance
microbial remediation...  or to inoculate soils and plants
with beneficial microbes, bioactive substances, and liquid
nutrients.

Steve Diver

>


From - Mon Apr 21 13:43:20 2003
X-UIDL: 347345770
X-Mozilla-Status: 0005
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A38810D000B6; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 12:59:52 -0400
Received: by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix, from userid 1001)
	id 49B76B4844; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 13:00:04 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu [152.2.210.119])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C49AB490A
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 13:00:01 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id 94F592001F; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 12:59:45 -0400 (EDT)
Delivered-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from mail.ncat.org (unknown [65.19.194.132])
	by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E13AA20019
	for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>;
	Mon, 21 Apr 2003 12:59:41 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from ncat.org ([130.184.56.238])
	(authenticated)
	by mail.ncat.org (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h3LGxex26005
	for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 10:59:40 -0600
Message-ID: <3EA42490.D8B94F1C@ncat.org>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 12:04:16 -0500
From: Steve Diver <steved@ncat.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Subject: [permaculture] 
	BD, CT, EM, IM, FPE = special cultures in organic farming
X-BeenThere: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1
Precedence: list
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: permaculture <permaculture.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
	<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture>
List-Post: <mailto:permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
	<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
Sender: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
Errors-To: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Spam-itxsa: 0
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347345770

Larry asked for resources on:

"If anyone has anything to add on compost, EM, IM, fermented
plant extracts and 24 hour compost tea, that be much appreciated.."

There is no faster way to share resources on this than to just
list the SANET, BD-Now, and Compost postings where I
have summarized these already, in addition to the ATTRA
publications on CT and BD.

Somebody needed these last week, so I put the
following list together.  See resources below on BD,
CT, EM, IM, and FPE.

Especially see the long SANET post on November 6,
2002 regarding Fermented Plant Extracts and EM-FPE.

Fermented plant extracts -- most commonly done as
a plain liquid manure or plant extract -- though the use
of EM to make EM-FPE is growing -- is a dynamic
practice gaining increased usage in India, Africa, Asia,
and Central America where poor farmers need to obtain
fertility and pest control from local plants and simple
on-farm extraction methods.  See the SANET posting
for links to the really interesting and detailed work
underway in India.

EM (Effective Microorganisms) from the Kyusei Nature
Farming system in Japan.

EM-FPE, the EM-Fermented Plant Extracts.

IM (Indigenous Microorganisms), or IMO's, from the Korean
Natural Farming Association.

In January 2003, Gil Carandang and myself put on an IMO
workshop at the EcoFarm Conference in Asilomar, California.
Making these IMO cultures on the farm is one of the most
exciting developments I've seen in organic farming.  See
the SANET posting of January 19, 2003 for background
resources.

The book by Han Kyu Cho and Atsushi Koyama, "Korean
Natural Farming: Indigenous Microorganisms and Vital
Power of Crop/Livestock," is the primary source in English.
Yet, the book is not easy to obtain.  Gil Carandang is offering
his little booklet from the workshop, which is a photocopy of
his practical notes on making these IMO cultures as well as
illustrations from Han Kyu Cho's book.  If you can get to
one of Gil's workshop, you will have fun and learn a lot.
The Korean Natural Farming approach with IMO's add a
whole new dimension to your farming experience.

The solutions that result from CT, EM, IM and FPE can be
viewed as "special cultures" that contain beneficial microbes,
nutrients, and bioactive substances.

BD (biodynamics) has "special cultures" in the form of
CPP (Cow pat pit) or Barrell Compost (BC); Horn Manure
(BD 500), BD Preps, etc.

CT, EM, IM, FPE and BD "special cultures" are cutting edge
organic farming techniques in terms of fertility, biostimulation,
growth promotion, and biocontrol of pests and diseases.  Most
notably, these special cultures can be viewed as biocontrol
techniques in the rhizosphere and phyllosophere.

CT, EM, IM, FPE and BD are some of the advanced
organic farming approches that are being employed
to combat insect pests and diseases.  They offer
complex biological, chemical, physical, and energetic
interactions to manipulate plant physiology,
pests, and pest habitats.

Regards,
Steve Diver
ATTRA

===================================================

Topic:  Compost Teas

For reference, see:

Notes on Compost Tea
ATTRA
http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/compost-tea-notes.html

Compost Teas for Plant Disease Control
ATTRA
http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/comptea.html

Here are the two latest resources, beyond those
listed in the ATTRA publication "Notes on Compost Tea":

There is a Compost Tea Web Forum on Yahoo!Groups.

Compost Tea at Yahoo!Groups
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/compost_tea/

The following paper from Steve Scheuerell in the
journal Compost Science & Utilization contains the
very latest literature reviews.

Steve Scheuerell.  2002. Compost tea: Principles and prospects
for plant disease control (Literature review).  Compost Science
& Utilization. Autumn.  Vol. 10, No. 4.  page 313-
26 pages

Also see:

Subject:      Re: Species diversity + Plate Culture
Date:         Wed, 6 Nov 2002 10:51:37 -0600
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
                 SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
From:         Steve Diver <steved@NCATARK.UARK.EDU>
http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0211&L=sanet-mg&O=A&P=7413

_____ See notes on the Midwest Bio-Systems approach to
identify, select and culture beneficial microbial strains.  MBS
then uses selected strains as amendments to compost teas
to make a complete liquid biological tea/fertilizer/biocontrol.

===================================================

Topic:  Alternative Farming Systems:  terminology, concepts, practices

Subject:      Re: farming systems comparison
Date:         Tue, 12 Nov 2002 12:06:26 -0600
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
                <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Steve Diver <steved@NCATARK.UARK.EDU>
http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0211&L=sanet-mg&P=R12433&I=-3

===================================================

Topic:  EM - Effective Microorganisms

See these postings on SANET, BD-Now, and USCC

Subject:    Re: Effective Micro-organisms (EM)
Date:         Mon, 23 Apr 2001 18:06:53 -0600
Sender:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
                  SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
From:         Steve Diver <steved@NCATARK.UARK.EDU>
http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0104&L=sanet-mg&P=R29647&I=-3

Subject:    Re: Effective Micro-organisms (EM)
Date:         Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:28:32 -0600
Reply-To: steved@ncatark.uark.edu
Sender:      Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
                   SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Steve Diver <steved@NCATARK.UARK.EDU>
http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0104&L=sanet-mg&P=R31022&I=-3

Re: EM - was vortex pump
16 May 2002 21:20 UTC
BD-Now || Biodynamics Discussion List
by Steve Diver
http://csf.colorado.edu/archive/2002/bdnow/msg02466.html

[USCC] Re: produce waste storage
Thu Dec 6 20:18:52 2001
U.S. Compost Council List
Steve Diver steved@ncatark.uark.edu
http://mailman.cloudnet.com/pipermail/compost/2001-December/003372.html

[USCC] Re: EM
Mon Feb 12 13:30:22 2001
U.S. Compost Council List
Steve Diver steved@ncatark.uark.edu
http://mailman.cloudnet.com/pipermail/compost/2001-February/002495.html

Subject:     Re: COMPOSTING TECHNIQUES (Effective Microorganisms)
Date:         Tue, 19 Mar 2002 14:25:50 -0600
Sender:      Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
                 SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
From:         Steve Diver <steved@NCATARK.UARK.EDU>
http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0203&L=sanet-mg&P=R31718&I=-3

Subject:     Re: Regulation of compost teas (Effective Microorganisms)
Date:         Wed, 6 Nov 2002 20:41:53 -0600
Sender:      Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
                 SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
From:         Steve Diver <steved@NCATARK.UARK.EDU>
http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0211&L=sanet-mg&O=A&P=8254

_____ Note:  This is the long post that contains notes on EM-FPE,
or EM-Fermented Plant Extracts, and the websites in India that
summarize this technology.

Subject:     Re: Beneficial Soil Microbia (Effective Microorganisms)
Date:         Fri, 13 Dec 2002 16:35:18 -0600
Sender:      Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
                 SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
From:         Steve Diver <steved@NCATARK.UARK.EDU>
http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0212&L=sanet-mg&O=A&P=10020

===================================================

Topic: IM

See these postings on SANET and BD-Now

Subject:    Indigenous Microorganisms + Korean Natural Farming
                  Association
Date:         Sun, 19 Jan 2003 16:00:57 -0600
Sender:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
                  SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
From:         Steve Diver <steved@NCAT.ORG>
http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0301&L=sanet-mg&O=A&P=23043

Subject:     Re: Indigenous Microorganisms + Korean Natural
                   Farming Association
Date:         Sun, 19 Jan 2003 23:22:08 -0600
Sender:      Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
                 SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
From:         Steve Diver <steved@NCAT.ORG>
http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0301&L=sanet-mg&O=A&P=23833

Subject:    Re: Soil Equilibrium
Date:         Fri, 3 Jan 2003 14:51:51 -0600
Sender:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
                  SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
From:         Steve Diver <steved@NCATARK.UARK.EDU>
http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0301&L=sanet-mg&O=A&P=4653

Fermented foods in China, book review
14 March 2003 03:01 UTC
BD-Now || Biodynamics Discussion List
by Steve Diver
http://csf.colorado.edu/archive/2003/bdnow/msg01674.html

===================================================

Topic:  Biodynamic Farming preparations and special cultures

For reference, see:

Biodynamic Farming & Compost Preparation
ATTRA
http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/biodynamic.html

Also see:

Microbial assay of BD preps at ICRISAT (India) = microbial
antagonism
15 June 2002 22:23 UTC
BD-Now || Biodynamics Discussion List
by Steve Diver
http://csf.colorado.edu/archive/2002/bdnow/msg02815.html

Re: Microbial assay of BD preps at ICRISAT (India) =
       microbialantagonism
17 June 2002 16:30 UTC
BD-Now || Biodynamics Discussion List
by Steve Diver
http://csf.colorado.edu/archive/2002/bdnow/msg02850.html

===================================================
===================================================



_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture


From - Mon Apr 21 13:43:20 2003
X-UIDL: 347345770
X-Mozilla-Status: 0005
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A38810D000B6; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 12:59:52 -0400
Received: by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix, from userid 1001)
	id 49B76B4844; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 13:00:04 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu [152.2.210.119])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C49AB490A
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 13:00:01 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id 94F592001F; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 12:59:45 -0400 (EDT)
Delivered-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from mail.ncat.org (unknown [65.19.194.132])
	by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E13AA20019
	for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>;
	Mon, 21 Apr 2003 12:59:41 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from ncat.org ([130.184.56.238])
	(authenticated)
	by mail.ncat.org (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h3LGxex26005
	for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 10:59:40 -0600
Message-ID: <3EA42490.D8B94F1C@ncat.org>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 12:04:16 -0500
From: Steve Diver <steved@ncat.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Subject: [permaculture] 
	BD, CT, EM, IM, FPE = special cultures in organic farming
X-BeenThere: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1
Precedence: list
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: permaculture <permaculture.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
	<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture>
List-Post: <mailto:permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
	<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
Sender: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
Errors-To: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Spam-itxsa: 0
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347345770

Larry asked for resources on:

"If anyone has anything to add on compost, EM, IM, fermented
plant extracts and 24 hour compost tea, that be much appreciated.."

There is no faster way to share resources on this than to just
list the SANET, BD-Now, and Compost postings where I
have summarized these already, in addition to the ATTRA
publications on CT and BD.

Somebody needed these last week, so I put the
following list together.  See resources below on BD,
CT, EM, IM, and FPE.

Especially see the long SANET post on November 6,
2002 regarding Fermented Plant Extracts and EM-FPE.

Fermented plant extracts -- most commonly done as
a plain liquid manure or plant extract -- though the use
of EM to make EM-FPE is growing -- is a dynamic
practice gaining increased usage in India, Africa, Asia,
and Central America where poor farmers need to obtain
fertility and pest control from local plants and simple
on-farm extraction methods.  See the SANET posting
for links to the really interesting and detailed work
underway in India.

EM (Effective Microorganisms) from the Kyusei Nature
Farming system in Japan.

EM-FPE, the EM-Fermented Plant Extracts.

IM (Indigenous Microorganisms), or IMO's, from the Korean
Natural Farming Association.

In January 2003, Gil Carandang and myself put on an IMO
workshop at the EcoFarm Conference in Asilomar, California.
Making these IMO cultures on the farm is one of the most
exciting developments I've seen in organic farming.  See
the SANET posting of January 19, 2003 for background
resources.

The book by Han Kyu Cho and Atsushi Koyama, "Korean
Natural Farming: Indigenous Microorganisms and Vital
Power of Crop/Livestock," is the primary source in English.
Yet, the book is not easy to obtain.  Gil Carandang is offering
his little booklet from the workshop, which is a photocopy of
his practical notes on making these IMO cultures as well as
illustrations from Han Kyu Cho's book.  If you can get to
one of Gil's workshop, you will have fun and learn a lot.
The Korean Natural Farming approach with IMO's add a
whole new dimension to your farming experience.

The solutions that result from CT, EM, IM and FPE can be
viewed as "special cultures" that contain beneficial microbes,
nutrients, and bioactive substances.

BD (biodynamics) has "special cultures" in the form of
CPP (Cow pat pit) or Barrell Compost (BC); Horn Manure
(BD 500), BD Preps, etc.

CT, EM, IM, FPE and BD "special cultures" are cutting edge
organic farming techniques in terms of fertility, biostimulation,
growth promotion, and biocontrol of pests and diseases.  Most
notably, these special cultures can be viewed as biocontrol
techniques in the rhizosphere and phyllosophere.

CT, EM, IM, FPE and BD are some of the advanced
organic farming approches that are being employed
to combat insect pests and diseases.  They offer
complex biological, chemical, physical, and energetic
interactions to manipulate plant physiology,
pests, and pest habitats.

Regards,
Steve Diver
ATTRA

===================================================

Topic:  Compost Teas

For reference, see:

Notes on Compost Tea
ATTRA
http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/compost-tea-notes.html

Compost Teas for Plant Disease Control
ATTRA
http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/comptea.html

Here are the two latest resources, beyond those
listed in the ATTRA publication "Notes on Compost Tea":

There is a Compost Tea Web Forum on Yahoo!Groups.

Compost Tea at Yahoo!Groups
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/compost_tea/

The following paper from Steve Scheuerell in the
journal Compost Science & Utilization contains the
very latest literature reviews.

Steve Scheuerell.  2002. Compost tea: Principles and prospects
for plant disease control (Literature review).  Compost Science
& Utilization. Autumn.  Vol. 10, No. 4.  page 313-
26 pages

Also see:

Subject:      Re: Species diversity + Plate Culture
Date:         Wed, 6 Nov 2002 10:51:37 -0600
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
                 SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
From:         Steve Diver <steved@NCATARK.UARK.EDU>
http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0211&L=sanet-mg&O=A&P=7413

_____ See notes on the Midwest Bio-Systems approach to
identify, select and culture beneficial microbial strains.  MBS
then uses selected strains as amendments to compost teas
to make a complete liquid biological tea/fertilizer/biocontrol.

===================================================

Topic:  Alternative Farming Systems:  terminology, concepts, practices

Subject:      Re: farming systems comparison
Date:         Tue, 12 Nov 2002 12:06:26 -0600
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
                <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Steve Diver <steved@NCATARK.UARK.EDU>
http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0211&L=sanet-mg&P=R12433&I=-3

===================================================

Topic:  EM - Effective Microorganisms

See these postings on SANET, BD-Now, and USCC

Subject:    Re: Effective Micro-organisms (EM)
Date:         Mon, 23 Apr 2001 18:06:53 -0600
Sender:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
                  SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
From:         Steve Diver <steved@NCATARK.UARK.EDU>
http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0104&L=sanet-mg&P=R29647&I=-3

Subject:    Re: Effective Micro-organisms (EM)
Date:         Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:28:32 -0600
Reply-To: steved@ncatark.uark.edu
Sender:      Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
                   SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Steve Diver <steved@NCATARK.UARK.EDU>
http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0104&L=sanet-mg&P=R31022&I=-3

Re: EM - was vortex pump
16 May 2002 21:20 UTC
BD-Now || Biodynamics Discussion List
by Steve Diver
http://csf.colorado.edu/archive/2002/bdnow/msg02466.html

[USCC] Re: produce waste storage
Thu Dec 6 20:18:52 2001
U.S. Compost Council List
Steve Diver steved@ncatark.uark.edu
http://mailman.cloudnet.com/pipermail/compost/2001-December/003372.html

[USCC] Re: EM
Mon Feb 12 13:30:22 2001
U.S. Compost Council List
Steve Diver steved@ncatark.uark.edu
http://mailman.cloudnet.com/pipermail/compost/2001-February/002495.html

Subject:     Re: COMPOSTING TECHNIQUES (Effective Microorganisms)
Date:         Tue, 19 Mar 2002 14:25:50 -0600
Sender:      Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
                 SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
From:         Steve Diver <steved@NCATARK.UARK.EDU>
http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0203&L=sanet-mg&P=R31718&I=-3

Subject:     Re: Regulation of compost teas (Effective Microorganisms)
Date:         Wed, 6 Nov 2002 20:41:53 -0600
Sender:      Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
                 SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
From:         Steve Diver <steved@NCATARK.UARK.EDU>
http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0211&L=sanet-mg&O=A&P=8254

_____ Note:  This is the long post that contains notes on EM-FPE,
or EM-Fermented Plant Extracts, and the websites in India that
summarize this technology.

Subject:     Re: Beneficial Soil Microbia (Effective Microorganisms)
Date:         Fri, 13 Dec 2002 16:35:18 -0600
Sender:      Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
                 SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
From:         Steve Diver <steved@NCATARK.UARK.EDU>
http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0212&L=sanet-mg&O=A&P=10020

===================================================

Topic: IM

See these postings on SANET and BD-Now

Subject:    Indigenous Microorganisms + Korean Natural Farming
                  Association
Date:         Sun, 19 Jan 2003 16:00:57 -0600
Sender:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
                  SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
From:         Steve Diver <steved@NCAT.ORG>
http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0301&L=sanet-mg&O=A&P=23043

Subject:     Re: Indigenous Microorganisms + Korean Natural
                   Farming Association
Date:         Sun, 19 Jan 2003 23:22:08 -0600
Sender:      Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
                 SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
From:         Steve Diver <steved@NCAT.ORG>
http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0301&L=sanet-mg&O=A&P=23833

Subject:    Re: Soil Equilibrium
Date:         Fri, 3 Jan 2003 14:51:51 -0600
Sender:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
                  SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
From:         Steve Diver <steved@NCATARK.UARK.EDU>
http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0301&L=sanet-mg&O=A&P=4653

Fermented foods in China, book review
14 March 2003 03:01 UTC
BD-Now || Biodynamics Discussion List
by Steve Diver
http://csf.colorado.edu/archive/2003/bdnow/msg01674.html

===================================================

Topic:  Biodynamic Farming preparations and special cultures

For reference, see:

Biodynamic Farming & Compost Preparation
ATTRA
http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/biodynamic.html

Also see:

Microbial assay of BD preps at ICRISAT (India) = microbial
antagonism
15 June 2002 22:23 UTC
BD-Now || Biodynamics Discussion List
by Steve Diver
http://csf.colorado.edu/archive/2002/bdnow/msg02815.html

Re: Microbial assay of BD preps at ICRISAT (India) =
       microbialantagonism
17 June 2002 16:30 UTC
BD-Now || Biodynamics Discussion List
by Steve Diver
http://csf.colorado.edu/archive/2002/bdnow/msg02850.html

===================================================
===================================================



_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture


From - Mon Apr 21 12:45:56 2003
X-UIDL: 347345766
X-Mozilla-Status: 0005
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A11B719F00A0; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:41:15 -0400
Received: by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix, from userid 1001)
	id 0FE81B48B6; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:41:27 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu [152.2.210.119])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8C12B4925
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:41:26 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id F30242003D; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:41:11 -0400 (EDT)
Delivered-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from mail.ncat.org (unknown [65.19.194.132])
	by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDBB52003A
	for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>;
	Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:41:08 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from ncat.org ([130.184.56.238])
	(authenticated)
	by mail.ncat.org (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h3LFf7x18770
	for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 09:41:08 -0600
Message-ID: <3EA41228.1FE9BB6B@ncat.org>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 10:45:44 -0500
From: Steve Diver <steved@ncat.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Subject: [permaculture] BioImages - Virtual Field-Guide (UK)
X-BeenThere: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1
Precedence: list
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: permaculture <permaculture.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
	<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture>
List-Post: <mailto:permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
	<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
Sender: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
Errors-To: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Spam-itxsa: 0
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347345766

BioImages - Virtual Field-Guide (UK) | BioImages.org.uk
http://www.bioimages.org.uk/

3,187 Taxa
30,113 Images

"BioImages (VFG-UK) is programmatically built from
a 4th Dimension Database."

Another database example with lots of plants,
insects, and life form photos.

The author made extensive use of a digitial camera to
collect photo images of field specimans, as well as
a flatbed scanner to compile "herbarium" samples of
leaves and flowers and mushrooms in digital color.

Shortcut to Taxonomy / Phyla / Database fields.
http://www.bioimages.org.uk/HTML/SHORTCUT.HTM

Regards,
Steve Diver


_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture


From - Mon Apr 21 12:45:56 2003
X-UIDL: 347345766
X-Mozilla-Status: 0005
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A11B719F00A0; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:41:15 -0400
Received: by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix, from userid 1001)
	id 0FE81B48B6; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:41:27 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu [152.2.210.119])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8C12B4925
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:41:26 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id F30242003D; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:41:11 -0400 (EDT)
Delivered-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from mail.ncat.org (unknown [65.19.194.132])
	by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDBB52003A
	for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>;
	Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:41:08 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from ncat.org ([130.184.56.238])
	(authenticated)
	by mail.ncat.org (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h3LFf7x18770
	for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 09:41:08 -0600
Message-ID: <3EA41228.1FE9BB6B@ncat.org>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 10:45:44 -0500
From: Steve Diver <steved@ncat.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Subject: [permaculture] BioImages - Virtual Field-Guide (UK)
X-BeenThere: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1
Precedence: list
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: permaculture <permaculture.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
	<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture>
List-Post: <mailto:permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
	<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
Sender: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
Errors-To: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Spam-itxsa: 0
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347345766

BioImages - Virtual Field-Guide (UK) | BioImages.org.uk
http://www.bioimages.org.uk/

3,187 Taxa
30,113 Images

"BioImages (VFG-UK) is programmatically built from
a 4th Dimension Database."

Another database example with lots of plants,
insects, and life form photos.

The author made extensive use of a digitial camera to
collect photo images of field specimans, as well as
a flatbed scanner to compile "herbarium" samples of
leaves and flowers and mushrooms in digital color.

Shortcut to Taxonomy / Phyla / Database fields.
http://www.bioimages.org.uk/HTML/SHORTCUT.HTM

Regards,
Steve Diver


_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture


From - Thu Apr 10 00:48:39 2003
X-UIDL: 347345292
X-Mozilla-Status: 0005
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A520E310284; Wed, 09 Apr 2003 23:29:36 -0400
Received: from happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu [152.2.210.119])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9FFC1740BF
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Wed,  9 Apr 2003 23:29:38 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id 2721720045; Wed,  9 Apr 2003 23:29:33 -0400 (EDT)
Delivered-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from mail.ncat.org (unknown [65.19.194.132])
	by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E1D520036
	for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>;
	Wed,  9 Apr 2003 23:29:31 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from ncat.org ([130.184.56.238])
	(authenticated)
	by mail.ncat.org (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h3A3TSx20703;
	Wed, 9 Apr 2003 21:29:28 -0600
Message-ID: <3E94E5FC.2763D4D5@ncat.org>
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 22:33:17 -0500
From: Steve Diver <steved@ncat.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Subject: [permaculture] 
	Appropriate architecture in India: IndianOrganic.com + Anangpur.com 
X-BeenThere: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1
Precedence: list
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: permaculture <permaculture.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
	<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture>
List-Post: <mailto:permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
	<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
Sender: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
Errors-To: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347345292

Appropriate architecture in India is another theme
I want to share.

Here are two sites in India you will find interesting:

1.

IndianOrganic.com | Rajasthan, India
http://www.indianorganic.com/

This is Ajit and Royina Grewal's farm house in Alwar District
of Rajasthan.  I visited Ajit and Royina in October 2002
to talk about the organic and biodynamic farming project.

A special feature of their home is the catenary form.  See
the web section on Domes. It has a picture gallery and
explanation of this structure.  The architect Suresh Rajan
designed this house.  It is based on local resources (bricks),
straight-forward building methods, and is structurally
sound and earthquake resistant.  It has that adobe style
cooling effect necessary in a harsh, hot, arid climate.
The Grewal's home worked so well, that the government
of Rajasthan is looking into building several hundred
schools based on this structure.

The catenary dome structure is composed of bricks, and
is built with the aid of a curved form that stands on a tripod
in the middle of the dome as you build. It swings around, so
the placement of bricks is precise, the one above just leading
over the edge of the one below... curving up into the beehive
dome.  There are three sizes of domes and three matching
construction forms to aid in laying of bricks.  The domes have
either 6, 4, or 3 arches.   The ground floor is laid out on a
series of hexagons.  Royina gave me a tour and explained
all the geometric details, and I scribbled notes and took
pictures on top of the roof, but it still hard to describe.
The pictures of the web page are the best way to grasp
what it looks like and feels like.  I am very much hoping
that Royina, an artist and author, will publish a book
on this structure.  It will be a best seller in permaculture
and green architecture circles.

Altogether, it is absolutely gorgeous and mesmerizing to walk
through the house, room by room, finding little alcoves.
Royina's artistic touch is evident in the marble floor designs and
custom-made furniture to fit the curvilinear dwelling.

It so happens that IndianOrganic is a premier example
of permaculture in the tough, arid lands of Rajasthan.

Ajit Grewal started the farm about 20 years ago.  The region is
located on the edge of the Thar desert and can be characterized
as barren, arid lands with sand dunes, elephant grass, shrubs and
native aromatic plants such as artemesia, pastoral grazing with
sheep and goats, and irrigated agriculture.  The farms and villages
exist in a harsh environment with extreme heat and drought in the
summer.  When the Grewals first arrived, few trees existed, and
the only birds present were crows and vultures.  Now, 20 years
later, the farm is a tree-covered oasis with tree crops and annual
crops blended together, a forest farm where 85 species of birds
visit and dwell amongst the trees and greenery.  What happened
is that Ajit decided to use his farm as a demonstration site for
ecological restoration, wherein he proceeded to plant 10s of
thousands of trees, establish an organic farm based on
agroforestry and intercropping, employ innovative methods
of irrigation, and utilize humus management practices such
as BD compost and vermicompost.

In addition to permaculture as a framework for ecological
restoration through intensive intercropping, agroforestry and
a systematic approach to establishment and maintenance
of plants and trees, Ajit is teaching farmers how to make
BD compost, Vermicompost, and related organic farming
methods.

2.
Anangpur Building Centre | Haryana, India
http://www.anangpur.com

humane architecture, affordable price
appropriate and cost effective technologies
Geodesics, Octageodules, Space frames, A Frames
interlocking blocks

Especially see:

Building Systems that Economize - Anangpur Building Centre
http://www.anangpur.com/f_build.html

FOUNDATIONS
      Eccentric Arched Foundations
 ROOFS
      Funicular Shells | http://www.anangpur.com/build2.html
      Ferrocrete Purlins & Rafters
 WALLS
      Surface Engineering ( Ram Lochan Tiles )
      Surface Engineered Blocks ( Swaran Singh Blocks)
      Interlocking Hollow Concrete Blocks

Structural Systems That are Innovative
http://www.anangpur.com/f_struc.html

MODULAR STRUCTURES
      A- Frames
      Cube - on - Vertex
 COMPRESSIVE STRUCTURES
      Domes
      Octagedules
      Space Frames
      Silos
 TENSILE STRUCTURES
      Hyperbolic Paraboloid

Also see:

Habitat Technology Network - A Video Based Technology
Demonstration on Alternative Methodologies of Building
http://www.anangpur.com/f_video.html

Sustainable Development - Anangpur Building Centre
http://www.anangpur.com/f_sus_dev.html

Here, see notes on Vastu Vidya, guidelines for human
settlements and governance.

            ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Regards,
Steve Diver


_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture


From - Thu Apr 10 00:48:39 2003
X-UIDL: 347345292
X-Mozilla-Status: 0005
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A520E310284; Wed, 09 Apr 2003 23:29:36 -0400
Received: from happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu [152.2.210.119])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9FFC1740BF
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Wed,  9 Apr 2003 23:29:38 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id 2721720045; Wed,  9 Apr 2003 23:29:33 -0400 (EDT)
Delivered-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from mail.ncat.org (unknown [65.19.194.132])
	by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E1D520036
	for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>;
	Wed,  9 Apr 2003 23:29:31 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from ncat.org ([130.184.56.238])
	(authenticated)
	by mail.ncat.org (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h3A3TSx20703;
	Wed, 9 Apr 2003 21:29:28 -0600
Message-ID: <3E94E5FC.2763D4D5@ncat.org>
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 22:33:17 -0500
From: Steve Diver <steved@ncat.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Subject: [permaculture] 
	Appropriate architecture in India: IndianOrganic.com + Anangpur.com 
X-BeenThere: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1
Precedence: list
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: permaculture <permaculture.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
	<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture>
List-Post: <mailto:permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
	<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
Sender: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
Errors-To: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347345292

Appropriate architecture in India is another theme
I want to share.

Here are two sites in India you will find interesting:

1.

IndianOrganic.com | Rajasthan, India
http://www.indianorganic.com/

This is Ajit and Royina Grewal's farm house in Alwar District
of Rajasthan.  I visited Ajit and Royina in October 2002
to talk about the organic and biodynamic farming project.

A special feature of their home is the catenary form.  See
the web section on Domes. It has a picture gallery and
explanation of this structure.  The architect Suresh Rajan
designed this house.  It is based on local resources (bricks),
straight-forward building methods, and is structurally
sound and earthquake resistant.  It has that adobe style
cooling effect necessary in a harsh, hot, arid climate.
The Grewal's home worked so well, that the government
of Rajasthan is looking into building several hundred
schools based on this structure.

The catenary dome structure is composed of bricks, and
is built with the aid of a curved form that stands on a tripod
in the middle of the dome as you build. It swings around, so
the placement of bricks is precise, the one above just leading
over the edge of the one below... curving up into the beehive
dome.  There are three sizes of domes and three matching
construction forms to aid in laying of bricks.  The domes have
either 6, 4, or 3 arches.   The ground floor is laid out on a
series of hexagons.  Royina gave me a tour and explained
all the geometric details, and I scribbled notes and took
pictures on top of the roof, but it still hard to describe.
The pictures of the web page are the best way to grasp
what it looks like and feels like.  I am very much hoping
that Royina, an artist and author, will publish a book
on this structure.  It will be a best seller in permaculture
and green architecture circles.

Altogether, it is absolutely gorgeous and mesmerizing to walk
through the house, room by room, finding little alcoves.
Royina's artistic touch is evident in the marble floor designs and
custom-made furniture to fit the curvilinear dwelling.

It so happens that IndianOrganic is a premier example
of permaculture in the tough, arid lands of Rajasthan.

Ajit Grewal started the farm about 20 years ago.  The region is
located on the edge of the Thar desert and can be characterized
as barren, arid lands with sand dunes, elephant grass, shrubs and
native aromatic plants such as artemesia, pastoral grazing with
sheep and goats, and irrigated agriculture.  The farms and villages
exist in a harsh environment with extreme heat and drought in the
summer.  When the Grewals first arrived, few trees existed, and
the only birds present were crows and vultures.  Now, 20 years
later, the farm is a tree-covered oasis with tree crops and annual
crops blended together, a forest farm where 85 species of birds
visit and dwell amongst the trees and greenery.  What happened
is that Ajit decided to use his farm as a demonstration site for
ecological restoration, wherein he proceeded to plant 10s of
thousands of trees, establish an organic farm based on
agroforestry and intercropping, employ innovative methods
of irrigation, and utilize humus management practices such
as BD compost and vermicompost.

In addition to permaculture as a framework for ecological
restoration through intensive intercropping, agroforestry and
a systematic approach to establishment and maintenance
of plants and trees, Ajit is teaching farmers how to make
BD compost, Vermicompost, and related organic farming
methods.

2.
Anangpur Building Centre | Haryana, India
http://www.anangpur.com

humane architecture, affordable price
appropriate and cost effective technologies
Geodesics, Octageodules, Space frames, A Frames
interlocking blocks

Especially see:

Building Systems that Economize - Anangpur Building Centre
http://www.anangpur.com/f_build.html

FOUNDATIONS
      Eccentric Arched Foundations
 ROOFS
      Funicular Shells | http://www.anangpur.com/build2.html
      Ferrocrete Purlins & Rafters
 WALLS
      Surface Engineering ( Ram Lochan Tiles )
      Surface Engineered Blocks ( Swaran Singh Blocks)
      Interlocking Hollow Concrete Blocks

Structural Systems That are Innovative
http://www.anangpur.com/f_struc.html

MODULAR STRUCTURES
      A- Frames
      Cube - on - Vertex
 COMPRESSIVE STRUCTURES
      Domes
      Octagedules
      Space Frames
      Silos
 TENSILE STRUCTURES
      Hyperbolic Paraboloid

Also see:

Habitat Technology Network - A Video Based Technology
Demonstration on Alternative Methodologies of Building
http://www.anangpur.com/f_video.html

Sustainable Development - Anangpur Building Centre
http://www.anangpur.com/f_sus_dev.html

Here, see notes on Vastu Vidya, guidelines for human
settlements and governance.

            ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Regards,
Steve Diver


_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture


From - Wed Apr 09 23:13:41 2003
X-UIDL: 347345290
X-Mozilla-Status: 0005
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A3F0C850262; Wed, 09 Apr 2003 22:16:16 -0400
Received: from happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu [152.2.210.119])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C718173ED9
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Wed,  9 Apr 2003 22:16:19 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id D37172005A; Wed,  9 Apr 2003 22:16:13 -0400 (EDT)
Delivered-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from mail.ncat.org (unknown [65.19.194.132])
	by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9DB120020
	for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>;
	Wed,  9 Apr 2003 22:16:10 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from ncat.org ([130.184.56.238])
	(authenticated)
	by mail.ncat.org (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h3A2G6x07601;
	Wed, 9 Apr 2003 20:16:07 -0600
Message-ID: <3E94D4CA.3EA9502E@ncat.org>
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 21:19:54 -0500
From: Steve Diver <steved@ncat.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Subject: [permaculture] 
	Organic architecture + Earth forms: Antoni Gaudi + Chris Drury
X-BeenThere: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1
Precedence: list
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: permaculture <permaculture.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
	<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture>
List-Post: <mailto:permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
	<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
Sender: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
Errors-To: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347345290

This is a follow-up to:

Raised field and terraced agriculture, built landscapes,
Amazon +Andean
28 March 2003 19:35 UTC
http://csf.colorado.edu/archive/2003/permaculture/msg00390.html

and

Waru waru raised beds | Nasca puquios aqueducts |
Terraced amphitheaters
28 March 2003 17:23 UTC
http://csf.colorado.edu/archive/2003/permaculture/msg00383.html

Those images of terraced amphitheaters are beautiful
to observe and think about in terms of land forms, structures,
and earth architecture.... as well as terraced agriculture and
what goes into these creations and how they are used.

To see the terraced amphitheaters, go to:

Defending Against Frost, The American Way: Past
& Present || A Photo Gallery By Kashyapa A. S. Yapa
http://kyapa.tripod.com/agengineering/thermalcontrol/thermal.htm

Which brings me to these next resources on form and structure.

Permaculture UK Magazine No. 34 had pointers
to the organic architecture of Antoni Gaudi and the
land artist forms of Chris Drury.

Here are some web-based resources to observe.

Antoni Gaudi - Organic Architecture
http://www.gaudiclub.com/ingles/i_partici/moscoso.asp

Mad about Gaudi
http://www.telebooks.com

Antoni Gaudí - A Life in the Architecture
http://members.lycos.nl/gaudiworks/eng_gaudi.htm

            +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Wave Chamber by Chris Drury
http://www.chrisdrury.co.uk/4/4d.html

Chris Drury - Land Artist Working with Nature
http://www.chrisdrury.co.uk

Chris Drury - Commissioned Work Outside and Works
in Public Places
http://www.chrisdrury.co.uk/commis.html

Chris Drury on the Axis Database
http://www.axisartists.org.uk/all/ref5386.htm

            +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Also see:

DeLeon White Gallery - Artists with Eco-Art
http://www.eco-art.com/dynamic/artist_list.asp

Public Nature - Land Art Earthworks
http://www.publicnature.com/paintings/landworks.html

greenmuseum.org | Featured Artists
http://greenmuseum.org/

            +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Regards,
Steve Diver


_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture


From - Sat Mar 22 01:27:57 2003
X-UIDL: 347344241
X-Mozilla-Status: 0005
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from listserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A66816B10146; Fri, 21 Mar 2003 18:55:20 -0500
Received: from n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.66])
	by listserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 2F166173F2C
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Fri, 21 Mar 2003 18:55:43 -0500 (EST)
X-eGroups-Return: sentto-7527208-2791-1048290916-lfl=intrex.net@returns.groups.yahoo.com
Received: from [66.218.66.96] by n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Mar 2003 23:55:16 -0000
X-Sender: steved@ncatark.uark.edu
X-Apparently-To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 21 Mar 2003 23:55:15 -0000
Received: (qmail 60232 invoked from network); 21 Mar 2003 23:55:15 -0000
Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216)
  by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Mar 2003 23:55:15 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.93)
  by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Mar 2003 23:55:15 -0000
Received: from [66.218.66.112] by n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Mar 2003 23:55:14 -0000
To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Message-ID: <b5g8p2+k88l@eGroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <3E7376C6.E1F9327D@supersat2.net>
User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82
X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster
From: "Steve Diver " <steved@ncatark.uark.edu>
X-Originating-IP: 130.184.56.238
X-Yahoo-Profile: steved3602002
MIME-Version: 1.0
Mailing-List: list compost_tea@yahoogroups.com; contact compost_tea-owner@yahoogroups.com
Delivered-To: mailing list compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Precedence: bulk
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:compost_tea-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 23:55:14 -0000
Subject: [compost_tea] Re: Weed Control using Compost Tea
Reply-To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Note: Total weight is 1. NOABUSE
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347344241

Hi Merla - 

We've met on the BD-Now list and discussed
weed control.  As you know, I'm into what
works.  

Compost tea is not even on the list of 
practices I'd suggest for weed control. It will
likely just make your weeds grow real nice, if 
you apply to existing vegetation. 

On the other hand, there is evidence that
humified compost will control weeds.  I am
referring to agricultural fields that are
plowed.  

SANET discussed this a couple of years ago; 
how chicken shit encourages weeds to pop-up, 
probably due to raw humic substances which mimic 
a disturbed soil site and provide feedback to
Nature to get her warriours out there and cover
the bare Earth.

Humified compost, in contast, tells the weed
warriors to chill out and lay low.  It mimics a 
mature soil ecosystem.  Everything is cool over
here, no weeds seeds are needed we are mature
and stable. 

The Luebkes in Austria conducted on-farm 
European field trials that explain this. 
They laid out field strips of compost at
3,4,5,6,7,8,10 weeks into the composting 
process, then observed weeds growing on the 
plots. After the 5th and 6th weeks, or
thereabouts, a weed populations dramatically
declined and then as the compost matured
even further there were very few weeds at all.
This is not about weed seeds, it is about
a communication feedback loop with humus
and weeds. As organic matter undergoes 
humification in the later weeks, the signals
lean towards mature soils vs disturbed soils. 

I support alternatives to herbicides and I
have spent years looking into non-chemical
weed control methods.  So I support your efforts
to reduce herbides in the environment.  But
I would also suggest you get practical and 
get tough on those weeds.  Don't be nice to them
and give them a drink of soluble nutrients
via compost teas.  Kick their ass with FLAME
and STEAM.  

I assume we are talking roadside weeds.

GOATS are the biological control I see large
overgrown areas begging for.  Pen them on
a spot and keep them there. 

I don't like Yahoo!Groups so I don't keep
up with Compost Tea List on a regular basis.  
When I saw your post I had to chime in.   

Weed control with humified compost falls
into the category of Deep Humus.  It is
an amazing tale which deserves to be told
over and over again.  Find the SANET archives
to understand the whole picture.  

Again, I am talking agricultural fields that
are tilled and planted into crops, not roadside
vegetation.  Big difference! 

Compost teas, of course, support a humified
soil ecosystem when used in conjuction with 
humified composts.  

Well, you can do some field trials and see
what happens but until then I don't place
much practical hope on weed control just
by application of compost teas alone, 
especially in comparison to kick-ass 
methods of non-chemical control.

VINEGAR is going to be a potent weed control
solution, in comparison to your soluble
organic fertilizer from compost tea. 

Steve Diver 





------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/0PSxlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
compost_tea-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 




From - Mon Jan 20 15:36:22 2003
X-UIDL: 322735720
X-Mozilla-Status: 0005
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A9AC1E90170; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 15:18:52 -0500
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A9A110F501EE; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 15:18:41 -0500
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0000733C@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 15:18:36 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 9809 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 20 Jan 2003 15:18:36 -0500
Received: from mail.ncat.org by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b)
          with SMTP id <0.0000733B@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Mon, 20 Jan 2003
          15:18:35 -0500
Received: from ncat.org ([130.184.56.238]) (authenticated) by mail.ncat.org
          (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h0KKIKp01707 for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 13:18:24 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID:  <3E2C5B85.AC0C0CE3@ncat.org>
Date:         Mon, 20 Jan 2003 14:26:45 -0600
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Steve Diver <steved@NCAT.ORG>
Subject: New: The Soil Foodweb Multi-Media CD
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.235]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322735720
Status: U

Here is a resource that is now available.

The Soil Foodweb Multi-Media CD
Featuring slides and video from Dr. Elaine Ingham.
$44.95

*Multi-media presentation on Soil Foodweb
*Slide collection in medium resolution jpg images
*Slide legend
*Movie clips
*Interactive self-learning "slide presentation"
  for PC users

Elaine Ingham worked with Sam Ettaro with
Unisun communications for a couple of years,
and one of the products that resulted was this
multi-media CD on the soil foodweb.

This is the CD that features the slides from a study
that demonstrated botrytis disease suppression on
grape leaves when compost teas had 100%
and 70% leaf surface, at the same time botrytis was
applied at 70% leaf coverage. The grape leaves
remained healthy.

In contrast, when compost teas covered 50% and 10%
of the leaf surface, botrytis infection was obvious.

Sam is now in Pennsylvania with a multi-media
business called Harmony Central.

Harmony Central
806 Daisy St.
Clearfield, PA 16830
814-768-9489 Local
866-470-0740 Toll-Free
814-768-7202 Fax
admin@unisun.org
http://www.harmonycentral.org

In addition, Harmony Central is the distributor
for Elaine Ingham's audio CD's.

Audio CD's in Soil Foodweb Series

Volume 1: An Introduction to the Soil Foodweb - 2 CD Set -
$9.00
Volume 2: A Plant Production Overview - 2 CD Set - $9.00
Volume 3: Turf Systems - 2 CD Set (EcoPak) - $7.00
Volume 4: The Compost Foodweb - 2 CD Set - $13.95

As a bonus, the The Soil Foodweb Multi-Media CD
at $44.95 is now being shipped with Volume 2 in
the Audio CD series, "Plant Production Overview."

This is a resource pointer, add this item to your
Soil Foodweb + Humus Management Toolbox.

Regards,
Steve Diver

.

From - Sun Jan 19 17:16:54 2003
X-UIDL: 322735678
X-Mozilla-Status: 0005
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A0994AF8004A; Sun, 19 Jan 2003 17:03:05 -0500
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A08741B8003C; Sun, 19 Jan 2003 17:02:47 -0500
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00007142@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; 19 Jan 2003 17:02:49 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 9233 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sun, 19 Jan 2003 17:02:49 -0500
Received: from mail.ncat.org by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b)
          with SMTP id <0.00007141@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; 19 Jan 2003 16:52:48
          -0500
Received: from ncat.org ([130.184.56.238]) (authenticated) by mail.ncat.org
          (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h0JLqZp19113 for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Sun, 19 Jan 2003 14:52:35 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID:  <3E2B2019.61978B72@ncat.org>
Date:         Sun, 19 Jan 2003 16:00:57 -0600
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Steve Diver <steved@NCAT.ORG>
Subject: Indigenous Microorganisms + Korean Natural Farming Association
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.235]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322735678
Status: U

[Previously... Re: [SANET-MG] Beneficial Soil Microbia]

The question is how to get information on IM or IMO's,
Indigenous Microorganisms.

Well, there is a seminar on Indigenous Microorganisms
at the Ecological Farming Conference in California,
Jan. 22-25.  Gil Carandang, a farmer from the Phillipines,
will demonstrate some of the special cultures.
http://www.eco-farm.org/efc/efc_main.html

Concepts and practices on Indigenous Microorganisms, IM
or IMO, originate with Han Kyu Cho and the Korean Natural
Farming Association, or KNFA, going back 35 to 40 years.
Yet, this knowledge has only come into English language in
the last few years.

There is one book in English, yet it is not available for-sale
from any distributor that I can determine.

Korean Natural Farming: Indigenous Microorganisms and
Vital Power of Crop/Livestock
Han Kyu Cho and Atsushi Koyama
Korean Natural Farming Association, 1997. 172 p.

Here is an address for KNFA:

Korean Natural Farming Association (KNFA)
209-2 Woongok-ri, Chungan-myun
Kyisan Kun, Chung cheong buk do
Republic of Korea
Tel:  (82-43)832-8777
Fax: (82-43)832-8783

Listed in:
Asian Productivity Organization // Green Productivity and
Natural Farming
http://www.apo-tokyo.org

KNFA develops IMO's in association with specific substrates
to create special cultures.  The IMO's are diluted to certain
concentrations and sprayed on plants, composts, and soils.

fermented fruit juices -FFJ
fermented plant juices FPJ
fish amino acid - FAA
brown rice vinegar - BRV
Oriental herbal nutrients - OHN
lactic acid bacteria serum - LAS

Often, these special cultures are mixed together to make
a complete recipe for plant pest control, to provide
soluble nutrients, to provide bioactive substances,
to inoculate the leaf surface with beneficial microorganisms.

KNFA farming practices pay special attention to soil
management, cover crops, and organic mulches. IMO's
are directed at critical stages of the plant growth,
to enhance and facilitate physiology and microbiology.

Very little on IMO's exists on the web, as well.
Here is one article to gain insight:

Indigenous Micro-organisms Put to Work
The Seed Saver's Network
http://www.genevar.com.au/seedsavers/resources/10.html

Here is a web document from a Korean company, a .doc
download, that points to commercial equipment for the
production of fermented biofertilizers with IMO's in
the KNFA tradition.  It contains useful background
information on KNFA, IMO's, microbial processes, and
microbial benefits.  It contains photos in an educational
series that show the production steps and processes.

Bio Plant of Indigenous Microorganism
Developed by... Natural Farming Institute
Manufactured by... H-Tec Co., Ltd
http://www.htech-fa.co.kr/english/env/images/infoeng.doc

Interestingly, EM in Japan does something very similar.  The
equipment featured here may be the same.  Over 1 million
Japanese households collect  food scraps in the EM bokashi
buckets.  Trucks come by every once in a while to pick up the
"pickled" bokashi-treated food waste.  The bokashi food-waste
material is taken to farms and composted.  And, the bokashi
food-waste material is taken to these biofertilizer plants which
run the material through bioprocessing equipment that integrates
(as best I can surmise):  bokashi food-waste + rice bran biomass
+ molasses + EM microbes + heat treatment + fermentation
process that results in a ready-to-use, pelletized organic
fertilizer for use on commerical on organic farms.

Web research on Korean-language websites -- to locate IMO
material on the web -- included digging through Korean
characters to find English-language resources.  That's how
I found the following chapter from Korea Organic Farming
Association, which offers complimentary notes on organic
farming, composting, fermentation, beneficial microorganisms,
and special-culture microbial-inoculants.

The Technics and Management of Organic Farming
Korea Organic Farming Association
http://www.organic.or.kr/whatis/what6.php

Similarly, web research found these items at Research Institute
of Organic Agriculture, Dan Kook University, Republic of Korea.

Research Institute of Organic Agriculture
Dan Kook University, Republic of Korea
http://www.anseo.dankook.ac.kr/~ecnet/

Chemical Characteristics of Soil and NO3- Accumulation of
Vegetable by Conventional and Organic farming in Korea
College of Agriculture, Dan Kook University, Republic of Korea
http://www.anseo.dankook.ac.kr/%7Eecnet/serve/base9.html

Development, Current Issues and Prospects of  Organic Agriculture
Movement in Korea
College of Agriculture, Dan Kook University, Republic of Korea
http://www.anseo.dankook.ac.kr/%7Eecnet/serve/base7.html

If you look at EM practices, you can see that Kyusei Nature
Farming + EM practices from Japan does something very similar
to KNFA + IM from Korea -- interestingly -- and that is get
beneficial microbes in touch with organic substrates and let
microbiology work over the organic amendments and raw
materials to transform the biomass into a fermented biofertilizer
or compost or special culture, or, remediate something like
raw manure sitting in a pile to prevent putrefaction.

And, to label these special cultures so it creates a
systematic approach to treatment of organic wastes
and biomass, preparation methods and microbial
integration, and biofertilizer + microbial inoculation
usage methods, all at the same time.

EM recipes at Lindros, South Africa
http://www.lindros.co.za/effective_microorganisms.htm

Keep in mind, as I mentioned earlier on SANET, the special
cultures in biodynamics -- Horn Manure, CPP, Liquid Manures
and Herbal Teas -- does pretty much the same thing;
get beneficial microbes in touch with an organic substrate
and let microbes grow and flourish and transform and
extract.

Thus, by using local herbs, garden plants, and fruits you can
make BD-Liquid Manure, EM-Fermented Plant Extracts,
or IM-FFJ, IM-FPJ, and IM-OHN.

You can see that a pattern emerges.  Farmers use local biomass
sources in association with local beneficial microorganisms
or brought-in microbial inoculants -- sometimes with microbial
food sources and catalysts such as molasses or raw sugar --
to allow Nature to work over the materials and develop
biofertilzers, disease and pest suppressive foliar brews, and
soil and compost inoculants.

            ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Related Resources:

The Food & Fertilizer Technology Center, an Information
Center for Farmers in the Asia Pacific Region, located in Tawain,
has an excellent library with two complimentary documents on
microbial fertilizers and inoculants.... including recipe for bokashi
(fermented organic matter).
http://www.agnet.org/library/

Use of Microbial Inoculants and Organic Fertilizers in
Agricultural Production
J.F. Parr, S.B. Hornick, and D.D. Kaufman
ABSTRACT:
http://www.agnet.org/library/abstract/eb394.html
HTML:
http://www.agnet.org/library/article/eb394.html
PDF | 15-pages:
http://www.agnet.org/library/data/eb/eb394/eb394.pdf

Microbial Fertilizers in Japan
Michinori Nishio
ABSTRACT:
http://www.agnet.org/library/abstract/eb430.html
HTML:
http://www.agnet.org/library/article/eb430.html
PDF | 12-pages:
http://www.agnet.org/library/data/eb/eb430/eb430.pdf

            ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Since IM and EM deal with fermentation, it is helpful
to look at fermentation technology and microbiology;
organisms; microbial growth factors; yeast; bacteria.

Here's a document from FAO.

Fermented Fruits and Vegetables: A Global Perspective
FAO Agricultural Services Bulletin No. 134
http://www.fao.org/docrep/x0560e/x0560e00.htm

LIST OF TABLES

Table 2.1 Fermented foods from around the world
Table 2.2 Microorganisms commonly found in fermentig fruit
and vegetables
Table 2.3 Water activity for microbial reactions
Table 2.4 Classification of bacteria according to temperature
requirements
Table 5.1 Major lactic acid bacteria in fermented plant products

            ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Biotechnology, Second, Completely Revised Edition, Volume 9
Enzymes, Biomass, Food and Feed Biotechnology 2nd Edition
Reed, Gerald / Nagodawithana, T. W. (eds.).  1995. 804 p.
ISBN 3-527-28319-6 -Wiley-VCH, Weinheim
http://www.wiley-vch.de/publish/en/books/

Indigenous Fermented Foods
Larry R. Beuchat
http://www.wiley-vch.de/books/biotech/pdf/v09indig.pdf

            ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The History of Kimchi
http://www.korea.net/koreanculture/kimchi/kimchi_2.html

The Scientific Nature and Nutritional Aspects of Kimchi
http://www.korea.net/koreanculture/kimchi/kimchi_4.html

            ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Medina, the microbial inoculant / soil activator developed
by James Martin in Texas, has an interesting history.  Here
is a web item that describes this process, and how one NGO
is seeking further information on development of special
cultures based on local biomass + local microbes.

Need for guidance in researching microbe catalyst for
enhanced crop yields
http://www.treesforlife.org/soilcond/Default.htm

Trees for Life ||| Soil Regeneration through microbe catalyst

"In the 1950s, Mr. James Martin [developer of Medina Soil
Activator] discovered that a fermented mixture of sea water,
cow dung and yeast stimulates microbes that exist in nature to
multiply at about one thousand times the normal rate."

"Martin believed that plankton in sea water, when fermented with
dung from lactating cows and yeast, may produce enzymes that
helped create the explosion of life on Earth some 3,000 million
years ago, when the Earth was surrounded by ammonia, methane
and water."

Medina Agriculture Products Co.
http://www.medinaag.com/

            ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

If you follow Compost Teas and EM and IM and BD,
as well as Organic Farming in general, you will notice that
many of the soil and foliar practices effect the rhizosphere
and the phyllosphere, those rich zones of biological
activity on the root and leaf surfaces.

A lot is known about rhizospheric organisms and
the rhizosphere.

Yet, here is a paper on phyllospheric organisms, and
how these endophytic organisms can help promote plant
growth and achieve biological control of diseases
AND insects on the leaf surface.

Endophytic Microorganisms:  A Review on Insect Control
and Recent Advances on Tropical Plants
Electronic Journal of Biotechnology
Vol.3 No.1, Issue of April 15, 2000
http://www.ejb.org/content/vol3/issue1/full/4/index.html

Well, I had promised several people to post resources
on IM + KNFA, so here they are.

Best regards,
Steve Diver

( New email address....  steved@ncat.org )

For the earlier SANET discussion on EM + IM, see:
Re: Beneficial Soil Microbia
Fri, 13 Dec 2002
http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0212&L=sanet-mg&O=A&P=10020



RiverValley wrote:

> Hi Steve,
>
> Do you know where we can do for more info on IM.
>
> thanks,
> daniel

.

From - Sat Dec 14 10:57:55 2002
X-UIDL: 322734101
X-Mozilla-Status: 0015
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AF6E120500C4; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 17:30:06 -0500
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AF5DCCD01B0; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 17:29:49 -0500
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.000023CF@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 17:30:10 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 4157 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Fri, 13 Dec 2002 17:30:10 -0500
Received: from ncatark.uark.edu by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT
          v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.000023CE@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Fri, 13 Dec 2002
          17:30:09 -0500
Received: from ncatark.uark.edu ([130.184.56.238]) by ncatark.uark.edu
          (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id gBDMa6v10405 for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 16:36:07 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <D73860C907DDCE41BBD68E35EE46AAFC0B8D8C@riexch01.rodaleinst.org>
            <3DF5DC62.4FBF0063@earthlink.net>
            <13f301c2a2ec$e792bbd0$b7cb3bcb@dmflkwfouhswsa>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID:  <3DFA60A6.3ACE39D3@ncatark.uark.edu>
Date:         Fri, 13 Dec 2002 16:35:18 -0600
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Steve Diver <steved@NCATARK.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beneficial Soil Microbia
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.235]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322734101
Status: U

Fermentative anaerobic is a beneficial microbial pathway.

See Higa and Parr's paper for a microbial explanation:

Beneficial and Effective Microorganisms for a Sustainable
Agriculture and Environment. 1994.  By Higa,Teruo, and
James F. Parr.  International Nature Farming Research Center,
Atami, Japan.  16 p. http://www.agriton.nl/higa.html

"Fermentation is an anaerobic process by which facultative
microorganisms (e.g., yeasts) transform complex organic
molecules (e.g., carbohydrates) into simple organic compounds
that often can be absorbed directly by plants. Fermentation
yields a relatively small amount of energy compared with
aerobic decomposition of the same substrate by the same
group of microorganisms. Aerobic decomposition results in
complete oxidation of a substrate and the release of large
amounts of energy, gas, and heat with carbon dioxide and
water as the end products. Putrefaction is the process by
which facultative heterotrophic microorganisms decompose
proteins anaerobically, yielding malodorous incompletely
oxidized, metabolites (e.g., ammonia, mercaptans and indole)
that are often toxic to plants and animals."

Etc.

It may be that aerobic and fermentative anaerobic
processes are not exclusive; rather, they happen
simultaneously, alternating back and forth.   Rather,
one is more dominant under the management system
praticed by the farmer.

One of the common indicators of good soil health with
EM (Effective Microorganisms), as well as IM (Indigenous
Microorganisms), is the rod test.  It is a common sight
in Japanese and Korean natural farming systems to push
a rod into the soil to observe changes in soil structure,
following adoption of the soil management system.

Scientists, using digitial meters, call that a penetrometer test.

Farmers just push a rod into the soil.  After you work with
EM or IM a few years, loaded with lactobacillus, you
can see observe a difference in soil structure, with reduced
compaction and enhanced friability.

Mulch, organic matter, low-till management, microbial
inoculation.... all these are part of the organic management
approach that results in soil improvements like this.

Seemingly, there is conflict between the composters
heralding aerobic compost and the EM people heralding
fermentative anaerobic composting.

Yet, I'm not sure there really is conflict.  They both work.
They both focus on beneficial microorganisms and beneficial
microbial pathways.  Perhaps one is just more dominant at a
given point in time, and also, the composters understand what
they are doing within the approach they take.

Besides, conflict is a mental construct.  Nature has
multitudes of pathways.  If we simply provide the conditions,
the terrrain -- by practicing humus management, for
example -- then the microbes flourish and do their work.

Yet, aerobic composting does have a goal and that is
well humified compost.

Fermentative anaerobic composting results in fermented
biomass.

Both are the result of digested organic matter, they are
stable, they retain nutrients etc.  But they are not exactly alike,
and that is normal.

Biodynamic + EM research in India says that EM compost
provides plant-available food for the current growing season,
while humified compost provides slow-release fertililzer as
well as helps build long-term soil structure.

If you have a high-end microscope setup with UV light
and specialized lens, you can see the difference in
humus crumb structure and related microbial architecture.

The microscope setup I refer to is based on Siegfried
Luebkes work in Austria.

In the U.S., Bob Pike at Pike Agri-Lab Supplies has
duplicated this microscope setup within a commercial
lab setting.

Here is an image of clay-humus crumb under the microscope.
This is from an organic farm that has practiced humus
management for many years.  Farms that neglect humus
management and replenishment of organic matter will
have flatter, less developed architecture.
http://ncatark.uark.edu/~steved/cmc-compost.html
http://ncatark.uark.edu/~steved/humus-cauliflower-microscopy.gif

Perhaps that is helpful.

Steve Diver
ATTRA

David Menne wrote:

> Following some recent postings and material/sites they refer to :
>
> (a) It would appear that for application to soil and crops, aerobic bug
> production is the good and healthful way to go.
>
> However :
>
> (b) Dr. Teruo Higa's Effective Microbe [EM] Technology [University of The
> Ryukyus, Okinawa, Japan; http://www.embiotech.org] very clearly prescribes
> ANaerobic bug production.
>
> Any wise comments ?

.

From - Sat Nov 30 21:01:31 2002
X-UIDL: 322733555
X-Mozilla-Status: 0015
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A90755600F6; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 20:42:31 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A912B682001C; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 20:42:42 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id XT8TQY3T; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 20:42:34 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 4051 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sat, 30 Nov 2002 20:43:06 -0500
Received: from 130.184.56.248 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 20:43:05 -0500
Received: from ncatark.uark.edu ([130.184.56.238]) by ncatark.uark.edu
          (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id gB11n4v09552 for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 19:49:05 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <D73860C907DDCE41BBD68E35EE46AAFC0D3743@riexch01.rodaleinst.org>
            <1b4201c297fb$4702da70$44a83bcb@dmflkwfouhswsa>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID:  <3DE96A30.232EDEE0@ncatark.uark.edu>
Date:         Sat, 30 Nov 2002 19:47:28 -0600
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Steve Diver <steved@NCATARK.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Paramagnetic Rock Dusts
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322733555
Status: U

Here is another viewpoint on paramagnetic rock dusts.

Rock Dusts  in Agriculture:  Insights on Remineralization and
Paramagnetism
http://ncatark.uark.edu/~steved/rock-dust.html

It has pointers to the emerging concepts and practices
associated with ORMUS elements, which also need
to be examined.  Read Barry Carter's articles and papers
for a in-depth explanation of the energetics behind ORMUS.

Separately, I wrote to David Menne to get clarification
on his pot trials.

I'm pretty sure we'd both agree on the value of rock dusts
to provide bioavailable minerals and trace elements, and
the essential activity of microbes to result in solubilization
and mineralization through organic acids, enzymes, and
chelation.

To me, this is by far the most important contribution of
rock dusts.  It is why organic farmers add rock phosphates
to compost piles to increase bioavailable P.  It is why
rock dusts are added to compost teas and foliar blends
and bioponic solutions.  Put the minerals and biologicals
and organics in there together and let the frothy brew
of life work it over and re-arrange it and come up with
something new... a chelated compound, a biotic-mineral
complex, and so on.

On the other hand, I have attended workshops by Dr. Phil
Callahan on several occassions and in my view and those of
many others in eco-farming his work on paramagnetism is
*significant* and worthwhile.

In the instance where plants grew better with Rock
Dust+Lower-PM than Rock Dust+High-PM, it probably
means that the Rock Dust+Lower-PM was of better
quality in terms of balanced minerals, trace elements,
and bioavailability.

It made the plants grow better.  The agronomic effects
of bioavailable minerals and a trace element mix had a
greater effect than a weak electromagnetic field.  So use
that brand.

Good agronomic husbandry is the common sense approach,
even when you are working in subtle energy agriculture.

Steve Diver

.

From - Mon Nov 25 23:15:18 2002
X-UIDL: 322733277
X-Mozilla-Status: 0015
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A2685F701EA; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 20:46:19 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A26D51F00A0; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 20:46:21 -0500
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id XT8TM8YY; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 20:46:11 -0500
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Mon Nov 25 20:47:02 2002 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 1142 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 25 Nov 2002 20:46:33 -0500
Received: from 130.184.56.248 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 20:46:33 -0500
Received: from ncatark.uark.edu ([130.184.56.238]) by ncatark.uark.edu
          (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id gAQ1qWv00177 for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 19:52:33 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <192.112ddae0.2b123373@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ncatark.uark.edu id
                      gAQ1qWv00177
Message-ID:  <3DE2D36B.DADE65F5@ncatark.uark.edu>
Date:         Mon, 25 Nov 2002 19:50:35 -0600
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Steve Diver <steved@NCATARK.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Purity Of Organic Foods/Compost
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322733277
Status: U

Municipal yard waste consists of grass clippings, leaves,
and shredded tree timmings.

Of these, grass clippings are the only biomass source
with pesticide contamination levels of any concern,
for all practical purposes.

Tree leaves are rarely sprayed with pesticides.  A few tree
species, for example sycamore, will sometimes receive a
fungicide spray to control anthracnose, but that is way back in
early spring.

Shredded branch timmings actually make a valueable compost
feedstock.

Some of the woodier and bulker wood chips provide porosity
and air flow, while the shredded feedstock derived from young
green branches helps balance the C:N ratio; and the lignins from
these young branches may play a role in humification.

Leaf recycling by communities, gardeners, and small farmers
is a great way to generate biomass for use as a mulch and
to make compost.

Leaves are a local biomass source, they are free, and they
are available in large volumes.

Leaves are free spirited and will blow away, though, so that is
why Master Composters talk rounding them up and keeping
them pinned down in a leaf corral.

If you have a 3' x 3' pile of leaves, and one 50-lb
bag of alfalfa pellets (rabbit feed), then you have the
perfect C:N ratio for a thermophyllic compost pile;
just sprinkle rabbit pellets and water as you build the
pile of leaves, then turn after one week to re-mix
and re-moisten the pile.  Repeat the turning process
a few times.  Later, after temperatures are moderate,
you can add worms and let them do their thing, which
adds another biological dimension.

When it comes to organic farms and municipal yardwaste,
in relation to concerns over pesticide contaimination of
grass clippings, an easy solution is to just collect leaves and
branch trimmings in the fall and completely avoid grass
clippings.

Yet when it comes down to mixed yardwastes with grass
clippings and potential herbicide residues, there is good reason
to expect the composting process itself to pack a powerful
punch full of enzymes and microbial bioremediation processes.

Phil Fredericks at EarthCare Technologies, Inc. is the compost
manager who has a lot to say about the compost windrow
functioning as a bioremediation factory.   He uses specialized
microbial inoculants to enhance degradation of hydrocarbons
and waste products handled at his compost facility.  The basis
of this microbial technology goes back to oilfeed research
in Oklahoma in the 1960s.
http://www.ecticompost.com
http://www.ecticompost.com/ec_process.html

Staff at Alberta Agriculture, Food and Rural Development
(AAFRD) developed a database of references on composting
and put this online as:

On-Farm Composting - A Review of the Literature
AAFRD
http://www.agric.gov.ab.ca/sustain/compost/bibliography.html

Included is this topic:

On-Farm Composting: Bioremediation / Soil Remediation
AAFRD
http://www.agric.gov.ab.ca/sustain/compost/bioremediation.html

For a recent literature review on the occurrence, degradation,
and fate of pesticides in composts, see this two-part series in
Compost Science and Utilization.

Occurrence, Degradation, and Fate of Pesticides During
Composting || Part I: Composting, Pesticides, and Pesticide
Degradation (Literature Review)
Fatih B=FCy=FCks=F6nmez, Robert Rynk, Thomas F. Hess and
Edward Bechinski
Compost Science and Utilization (1999) | Autumn | Vol. 7, No.4 |
pages 66-82.

Occurence, Degradation, and Fate of Pesticides During
Composting || Part II: Occurence and Fate of Pesticides in
Compost and Composting Systems (Literature Review)
Fatih B=FCy=FCks=F6nmez, Robert Rynk, Thomas F. Hess and
Edward Bechinski
Compost Science and Utilization (2000) | Winter | Vol. 8, No. 1 |
pages 61- 81.

See:
Compost Science and Utilization
http://www.jgpress.com/compost.htm

Regards,
Steve Diver

.

From - Wed Nov 13 13:21:47 2002
X-UIDL: 322732636
X-Mozilla-Status: 0005
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A6317B60110; Wed, 13 Nov 2002 13:13:05 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A623C6CF0098; Wed, 13 Nov 2002 13:12:51 -0500
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WQBJQA65; Wed, 13 Nov 2002 13:11:35 -0500
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Wed Nov 13 13:12:08 2002 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 9124 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Wed, 13 Nov 2002 13:11:50 -0500
Received: from 130.184.56.248 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Wed, 13 Nov 2002 13:11:50 -0500
Received: from ncatark.uark.edu ([130.184.56.238]) by ncatark.uark.edu
          (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id gADIHaW13713 for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Wed, 13 Nov 2002 12:17:42 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID:  <3DD2968D.18197F86@ncatark.uark.edu>
Date:         Wed, 13 Nov 2002 12:14:38 -0600
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Steve Diver <steved@NCATARK.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Manual on Raised Beds,
         a form of permaculture for the dry and wet tropics
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732636
Status: U

Recently, under the thread "Regulation of compost teas,"
I posted resources on organic farming methods (biodynamics,
organics, composts, EM, fermented plant extracts) at
Auroville in India.

Auroville is a city-in-the-making in southern India based on
the teachings of Sri Aurobindo and The Mother.  Auroville has
several farms and organic farming and gardening projects.

Here is a 4-page PDF leaflet on raised beds from Auroville.

A Manual for Raised Beds, A Form of Permaculture for the
Dry and Wet Tropics

Go to HTML Source .....
Ecological Agriculture at Auroville
http://www.auroville.org/environment/agri.htm

Download the zipped PDF file at .....
A Manual for Raised Beds, A Form of Permaculture for the
Dry and Wet Tropics
http://www.auroville.org/environment/farms_news/Raised%20Beds.zip

The manual is based on the work of a dutch farmer,
Paul Teuben, who stayed at Auroville for two years.

Previously, vegetable production in the region was not
considered feasible.  The costs of production were high
and market prices were low. India has a hot climate with
wet and dry seasons and the farm and soil undergoes
hardship under these conditions.

But after people starting using the raised bed technique --
by following a particular farming system approach -- they
realized there are many benefits of this technique, including:

permanent raised beds
soil covered with organic mulches and cover crops
nutrients from liquid manures, green manures, foliage of legumes
water management
soil improvement
use of local resources
simple method to teach
seedling production and transplanting techniques
aesthetic and enjoyable gardens
beneficial insect and butterfly habitat
high yield food production
economic returns

This little leaflet is a nice summary of the methods and benefits
of raised beds, which you can add it to your sustainable farming
toolbox.

It also adds to the growing body of information on
permanent beds and biointensive agriculture.

            +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The work of John Jeavons and Ecology Action comes to mind:

Ecology Action Publications
http://www.growbiointensive.org/

"Grow Biointensive" books and research booklets
http://www.bountifulgardens.org/growbiointensive-books.html

Dig It!
John Jeavons Double-Digging Video
John Jeavons, 1997, 30 min
http://www.bountifulgardens.org/gb-videos.html

What is the GROW BIOINTENSIVE Food-Raising Method?
http://www.growbiointensive.org/biointensive/GROW-BIOINTENSIVE.html

            +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

So does Roland Bunch and his Five Principles of Soil
Management for the Humid Tropics.

1. Maximize organic matter
2. Keep the soil covered
3. Use zero tillage
4. Maximize biodiversity
5. Feed the crops through the mulch

Nutrient Quantity or Nutrient Access?:  A New Understanding of How
to Maintain Soil Fertility in the Tropics
By Roland Bunch, October 2001
HTML Gateway through MOIST:
http://ppathw3.cals.cornell.edu/mba_project/moist/RolandB.html

Bunch's Paper in PDF:
http://ppathw3.cals.cornell.edu/mba_project/moist/Roland.pdf
        A 19-page PDF download

NECOFA -- Network for Ecofarming in Africa -- provides
Roland Bunch's paper in in HTML:
http://www.necofa.org/activities/publications/bunch_primav.html

            +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

So does Mark Cain's market farming approach in the Ozarks,
inspired by Masanobu Fukuoka and Emilia Hazelip:

No-Till, Mulch-Based Market Gardening
http://www.seedballs.com/mcain.html

            +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

So does Emilia Hazelip's market farming approach in
southern France -- known as Synergistic Gardening --
inspired by Masonobu Fukuoka and Permaculture:

The Synergistic Garden
By Emilia Hazelip
http://www.seedballs.com/hazelip.html

The Four Principles Of Synergistic Agriculture

1.  Keep the soil undisturbed and uncompacted.
2.  Use the soil's self-fertility as fertilizer.
3.  Integrate the litter zone with the agricultural soil profile.
4.  Establish a partnership with beneficials to protect crops.

            +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

So does Ken Hargesheimer in Texas, with his teaching approach
to permanent raised beds, based on his worldwide travels:
http://www.minifarms.com/

Raised Bed Agriculture | Ken Hargesheimer
http://www.minifarms.com/rba.html

            +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Regards,
Steve Diver

.

From - Wed Nov 06 21:53:14 2002
X-UIDL: 322732279
X-Mozilla-Status: 0015
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A23C42FB0118; Wed, 06 Nov 2002 21:38:52 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A2362DF007A; Wed, 06 Nov 2002 21:38:46 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WKLFYLSQ; Wed, 6 Nov 2002 21:39:09 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 4048 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Wed, 6 Nov 2002 21:39:02 -0500
Received: from 130.184.56.248 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Wed, 6 Nov 2002 21:39:01 -0500
Received: from ncatark.uark.edu ([130.184.56.238]) by ncatark.uark.edu
          (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id gA72j5X29059 for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Wed, 6 Nov 2002 20:45:05 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ncatark.uark.edu id
                      gA72j5X29059
Message-ID:  <3DC9D2F0.2711DB33@ncatark.uark.edu>
Date:         Wed, 6 Nov 2002 20:41:53 -0600
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Steve Diver <steved@NCATARK.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732279
Status: U

In response to a few questions posed by Douglas Hinds:


DH:
"I'm hoping one or more of you can direct me to a reliable source
for detailed studies on Compost Tea and / or EM Tea that specify:"

"  the organisms contained in them, the substances produced by them
  and the effects of those substance on a number of different plant
  species."


SD:
Allow me to point to a few items I've already compiled. They
also list primary information sources, so you can find additional
resources by starting here.

Notes on Compost Teas
ATTRA
http://www.attra.org/attra-pub/compost-tea-notes.html
http://www.attra.org/attra-pub/PDF/compost-tea-notes.pdf

Especially see the "Minimum Standards for Compost" and
"Minimum Standards for Compost Teas," on pages 5-6,
drawn from Dr. Elaine Ingham's experience at Soil Foodweb,
Inc.

In the resources section, especially see:

"Compost Tea Brewing Manual" published by Elaine Ingham

Dr. Ingham=92s Monthly E-Zine

Organic Teas from Composts and Manures by Richard Merrill,
OFRF Grant Report 97=9640.
[This download contains 88 literature references in the
bibliography, =93Selected References for Organic Tea Extract
Studies=94]

Compost Tea for Organic Farming and Gardening by William Quarles.
The IPM Practitioner. Vol. 23, No. 9 (September). p. 1=968

Papers by Will Brinton and Andreas Trankner


Next,

Nature Farming and Effective Microorganisms
ATTRA
http://ncatark.uark.edu/~steved/Nature-Farm-EM.html

EM contains around 80-120 microorganisms.

The main species of microorganisms in EM include:  [1] Lactic
acid bacteria: Lactobacillus plantarum, Lactobacillus casei,
Streptococcus lactis; [2] Photosynthetic bacteria:
Rhodopseudomonas palustrus, Rhodobacter spaeroides;
[3] Yeasts:  Saccharomyces cerevisiae, Candida utilis;
[4] Actinomycetes:  Streptomyces albus, Streptomyces
griseus; and [5] Fermenting Fungi: Aspergillus oryzae,
Mucor hiemalis.

For literature, especially see the two volumes of Dr. Higa's book,
"An Earth Saving Revolution";  the conference proceedings of
International Kyusei Nature Farming (there are now six volumes);
and the following book which is available through Food Products
Press, the publisher "Journal of Sustainable Agriculture"
and "Journal of Crop Production," among others.

"Nature Farming and Microbial Applications," a Food Products
Press book edited by Hui-lian Xu, James F. Parr, and Hiroshi
Umemura, was co-published simultaneously published as Journal
of Crop Production, Volume 3, No. 1 (#5), 2000.  It contains
30 scientific papers on EM, addressing topics such as:  Nature
Farming history, principles, and perspectives; production and
application of organic materials as fertilizers in China,
EM-prepared organic fertilizers in the control of plant pathogenic
diseases and insect pests; EM-prepared organic fertilizers and
their influence on soil organic matter, soil moisture, and other
soil quality parameters; Nature Farming practices for apple
production in Japan; EM-prepared organic fertilizers in organic
sweet corn production; EM in the treatment of malodorous
poultry manure; and influence of EM on mycorrhizae,
earthworms, rhizobia, and other aspects of soil biology.

Excerpts / table of contents to Higa's books:

An Earth Saving Revolution, Vol. I
http://www.emro.jp/english/library/books/esr/esr.html

An Earth Saving Revolution, Vol. II
http://www.emro.jp/english/library/books/esr2/esr2.html

The web resources section in my working paper points to
a number of primary information sources.

Of special interest is the following paper.

Beneficial and Effective Microorganisms for a Sustainable
Agriculture and Environment. 1994.  By Higa,Teruo, and
James F. Parr.  International Nature Farming Research
Center, Atami, Japan.  16 p. http://www.agriton.nl/higa.html

This paper includes the microbial pathway sketched out by
Dr. Higa, "Flow Chart of Organic Matter Decomposition by
Soil Microorganisms and the Development of Soils That
May be Disease-Inducing, Zymogenic, or Synthetic."

In North America, Sustainable Community Development in
Missouri sponsors the EMtrading.com website which has
research reports of special interest.
http://www.emtrading.com/

Regarding EM as a liquid spray for foliar inoculation.

EM itself can be used as a foliar spray to enhance foliar
nutrition and to enhance pest control.

EM is also used as a microbial adjunct to plant-based extracts.

[In both instances, I refer to "extended EM" which is made
by mixing EM stock solution with molasses and water.]

In the organic and biodynamic literature plant-based extracts
are commonly referred to as "herbal teas" or "liquid manures."
Fresh plant material is harvested, chopped, and soaked in a
barrel of water for 3-10 days.  A simple extract may be a
single ingredient herbal tea, for example stinging nettle extract.
On the other hand, farmers in India, for example, are developing
complete recipes for liquid manures that include a mixture of
plants (stinging nettle, neem), lactating cow urine, and other
ingredients.

When EM is added to the solution it facilitates the extraction of
nutrients and bioactive substances from the plant leaf material
through a fermentation process.

[This is typical for EM as well as any microbial inoculant.
Microbes work on a substrate; i.e., organic wastes, organic
amendments, raw organic matter].

The resulting EM extract is known as a fermented plant extract,
or EM-FPE.

To gain a practical understanding of these approaches,
see:

EM Application Manual for APNAM Countries
------------- three online sources --------------
http://www.agriton.nl/apnanman.html
http://www.emfsafe.com/em/app/
http://www.plantsfood.com/bm.htm

Margarita Correa, working at Auroville near Pondicherry in
southern India, published a notable paper that describes
the use of EM, biodynamic preparations, and related organic
farming practices.  Of special interest are her notes on
EM-FPE for pest management.

The Impact of Effective Microorganisms (EM) in Various
Organic Farming Systems
http://www.auroville.org/environment/EM_impact.pdf
        13-page PDF

Margarita Correa also published a paper describing EM-FPE.

Go to HTML Source:
AuroAnnam - research & development farm at Auroville
http://www.auroville.org/research/auroannam_research_farm.htm

Download EM presentation as a zip file and open......

Experiences with Effective Microorganisms in disease and
pest control in farms and gardens in India
C. Margarita and L. Dengel

        ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Selected excerpts from C. Margarita and L. Dengel:

EM was used to ferment locally growing plant material that was
known for its medicinal value and for its pest repelling or pest
controlling properties, such as neem and Calotropis gigantea.

All plant material was chopped, immersed with the help of a
stone weight in EM solution undergoing extension, and let
ferment for about five days under anaerobic conditions. For the
production of approximately 20 liters of FPE, the following
ingredients were used:

15 liters of water
3 kg of neem leaves (and flowers)
250 g of each plant material indicated as per Table 2
450 ml of EM stock solution
450 g of cane jaggery (which could be replaced by molasses)

Afterwards it was filtered and stored away for use, for at
least 90 days.

EM-FPE from fruits, weeds and plants with known pest repellent
properties have been observed to enhance the efficacy of pest
control. It seems that EM is capable of extracting the active
ingredients from plants and making them available as pest
control agents.

1.  Turmeric  (Curcuma longa)
2.  Ginger (Zingiber officinale)
3.  Tobacco (Nicotiana tabacum)
4.  Papaya (Carica papaya)
5.  Custard Apple (Annona squamosa)
6.  Vitex (Vitex negundo)
7.  Neem (Azadirachta indica)
8.  Calotropis (Calotropis gigantean)
9.  Onion (Allium cepa)
10. Garlic (Allium sativum)
11. Aloe (Aloe barbedensis)
12. Tulasi (Ocimum sp.)
13. Pongam (Pongamia pinnata)
14. Euphorbia (Euphorbia tirucalli)

        ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Also see:

EM-Fermented Plant Extract and EM5 for Controlling Pickleworm
(Diaphania nitidalis) in Organic Cucumbers
http://www.emtrading.com/em/htmlpapers/emcucumbers.html

In addition to traditional EM-FPE, a new EM practice is
to add EM ceramics powder to the solution.

For example, see:

EM-X Ceramic Powder (EM-XCP)
http://www.emtrading.com/em/emreport2001/emscp.html

In general, adding a clay powder or rock dust component
to a foliar brew provides the ingredients for organo-mineral
and biotic-mineral interactions and complexes to occur.  In
some instances micronutrients serve as biocatalysts for
microorganisms, and in other instances organic acids from
microbial activity enhance mineral availability through
solubilization and mineralization.


Next,

What are the bioactive compounds produced by microorganisms
during compost tea brewing, or from compost watery extracts,
that function as biostimulants.

Microbial metabolites and bioactive substances extracted
from composts that come to mind include enzymes, amino acids,
nucleic acids, vitamins, and hormones.

Yet, while I mention these in general I can't think of any
papers that provide specific data on this point.

Krasilnikov's "Soil Microorganisms and Higher Plants,"
located online at Soil and Health Library, comes to mind
as a background source on this topic.
http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010112Krasil/010112krasil.toc.ht=
ml



Next,

How does vermi-compost compare to compost tea or EM
tea, and "detailed studies available regarding the worm-gut
bacteria / microorganisms that process the vermicompost?"

Compost teas and worm teas have greater fungal components
than EM, for one.

In addition to the resources from Elaine Ingham referred to
earlier, you may want to join the Compost Tea discussion
list at Yahoo!Groups.  The archives include compost tea
lab tests, comparative results between composts, etc.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/compost_tea/


Next,

Regarding "detailed studies on the microbial ecology of worm
guts and worm castings":

Here is a vermiculture paper worth downloading.  Dr. Sultan
Ismail is one of the leaders of vermicomposting technology
in India.

Vermitech-A Potential Technology for Soil Management
and Productivity
S. Sundaravadivel and Sultan Ismail | Institute of Research in
Soil Biology and Biotechnology, The New College,
Chennai, India
http://www.shaping-the-future.de/pdf_www/128_paper.pdf

The following references from this paper are worth noting:

Nielson R L, (1965) Presence of plant growth substances in
earthworms demonstrated by paper chromatography and the
went pea test. Nature Lond 208: 113-114.

Parle J N, (1963 a) Microorganisms in the intestines of earthworms.
J Gen Microbial 31: 1-13.

Parle J N, (1963 b) A microbilogical study of earthworm casts.
J Gen Microbial 31: 13-23.

It so happens that India is a world leader in vermicomposting,
biofertilizers, and plant-based pest control (liquid manures and
fermented plant extracts).

To capture web-based resources on vermiculture in India,
I posted the following resource list on Permaculture.

[permaculture] Vermicompost + Cuba + India
30 May 2002
http://csf.colorado.edu/archive/2002/permaculture/msg01124.html

An additional worm-extract from India is vermiwash.
Vermiwash is made by dripping water (or something like
an occassional watering at weekly or bi-weekly intervals)
through an active worm bed or a worm barrel with an outlet
at the bottom to collect the vermiwash.  The vermiwash is
used as a foliar spray that functions as a foliar fertilizer,
biostimulant, and prophylactic pest control.  It is also mixed
with cow urine and plant extracts.

The following two links provide a glimpse into the many different
recipes and approaches used in India to prepare plant extracts
and vermiwash:

Growing Biodynamic Sugar Cane in India
http://www.biodynamics.net.au/resources/

Green Foundation Newsletter
http://www.greenconserve.com/Our%20Periodical%20Newsletter.htm


On a related note,

The whole approach to plant-based pest control using native
plants and locally grown herbs to prepare liquid manures and
fermented plant extracts is well developed in India.

There are two indigenous knowledge data sources in India
that capture farmer experiences with plant-based pest control:

Indigenous Knowledge News
Centre for Indian Knowledge Systems || Chennai, India
http://www.ciks.org/archives.html

Honeybee Network & Innovation Database
SRISTI || Ahmedabad, India
http://www.sristi.org/honeybee.html

The Indigenous Knowledge News is an especially rich
online source to learn about plant-based pest control.
This newsletter was formerly titled "Pesticide Post."

The Centre for Indian Knowledge Systems publishes
a series of booklets called "Plants in Pest Control."
http://www.ciks.org/agpub.html


Finally,

Compost teas, EM, liquid manures, and fermented plant
extracts are worth exploring because they match the principles
of organic agriculture to use local resources and biological
processes.  They work with organic substrates and microbes
to transform raw materials into fertilizers and pest controls.
They bring a dynamic effect to the phyllosphere and the rhizosphere.
They are biological farming and humus management practices
that provide the terrain for microbes to do their work.

Steve Diver
ATTRA

.

From - Wed Nov 06 13:23:30 2002
X-UIDL: 322732258
X-Mozilla-Status: 0015
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AB5420180110; Wed, 06 Nov 2002 13:11:32 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id AB8A188600B2; Wed, 06 Nov 2002 13:12:26 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WKLFX665; Wed, 6 Nov 2002 13:12:28 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 3548 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Wed, 6 Nov 2002 13:12:22 -0500
Received: from 130.184.56.248 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Wed, 6 Nov 2002 13:12:21 -0500
Received: from ncatark.uark.edu ([130.184.56.238]) by ncatark.uark.edu
          (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id gA6IIOX24222 for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Wed, 6 Nov 2002 12:18:24 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <F10ed9VlLfYs3JgCJwu0001066a@hotmail.com>
            <3DC94898.B770580F@ncatark.uark.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID:  <3DC95C2F.24C1E2BA@ncatark.uark.edu>
Date:         Wed, 6 Nov 2002 12:15:11 -0600
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Steve Diver <steved@NCATARK.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Species diversity + Plate Culture
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732258
Status: U

I guess I should alter this for clarity.  It is sometimes helpful to
read a "second" viewpoint.  What I mean to say is that
Johnny Agulia confirms what Elaine Ingham has been saying
about the plate-count vs direct-look method.

Direct-look is a colloquial term for the microbial bioassay
method developed by Dr. Ingham through her graduate
research and introduced as a commercial lab service during
her tenure at Oregon State University.  It uses high-end
epiflourescent microscopy to visually observe and measure
bacteria, fungi, protozoa, and nematodes.

Steve Diver


> It is sometimes helpful to read a different viewpoint. In the
> following piece, Johnny Agulia at ABC ORGANICS summarizes
> the difference between "Plate-Count" and "Direct-Look" methods
> for microbial analysis.  Be sure to read the "French Poodle effect"
> to gain a hands-on appreciation for the biological farming approach
> versus the NPK farming approach.
> http://www.abcorganics.com/Compost%20Production.htm
>
> Adios,
> Steve Diver

.

From - Wed Nov 06 12:06:10 2002
X-UIDL: 322732255
X-Mozilla-Status: 0015
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A7DB1D720102; Wed, 06 Nov 2002 11:48:27 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A81A6620138; Wed, 06 Nov 2002 11:49:30 -0500
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WKLFXYR2; Wed, 6 Nov 2002 11:48:58 -0500
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Wed Nov 06 11:48:54 2002 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 3501 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Wed, 6 Nov 2002 11:48:47 -0500
Received: from 130.184.56.248 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Wed, 6 Nov 2002 11:48:46 -0500
Received: from ncatark.uark.edu ([130.184.56.238]) by ncatark.uark.edu
          (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id gA6GsnX22926 for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Wed, 6 Nov 2002 10:54:49 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <F10ed9VlLfYs3JgCJwu0001066a@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID:  <3DC94898.B770580F@ncatark.uark.edu>
Date:         Wed, 6 Nov 2002 10:51:37 -0600
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Steve Diver <steved@NCATARK.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Species diversity + Plate Culture
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732255
Status: U

Still, there are other uses of plate counts...

One useful aspect of plate culture is to look at potential
for disease suppression and pathogen inhibition, by
microbial cultures or with compost samples.  Make a
compost extract and put your sample in there and let the
critters duke it out.

See:
Pathogen Inhibition Assay @ Bob Baars site
http://www.compara.nl/what_compost.htm

It is also interesting to just grow out microbes from composts
and soils and microbial inoculants.  You can "see" diversity for
yourself as the different microbial cultures start to grow on a plate.
Compare high diversity plates to low diversity plates -- a contrast
between well managed soils and neglected soils -- and you start
to get the idea what diversity is all about and why it is important.
There is a memorable piece in the Japanese "Life in the Soil"
video that illustrates this point.

You can also select microbial cultures that start to grow from soils
or composts, identify them by mass spectrophotometry, then culture
them, then add them as an adjunct to compost teas and liquid
biologicals.   Agri-Energy Resources in Illinois is doing this
on a commercial basis.
http://www.agrienergy.net/products/indexproducts.html
http://www.agrienergy.net/products/research_data.htm

The power of this approach can be understood from Midwest
Bio-Systems' experience in the Georgia vegetable grower's field,
where a virus in bell peppers was "arrested" through an
integrated eco-farming approach that included mineral balancing,
high quality compost application, and amended compost teas
obtained from Agri-Energy Resources.  Getting a vegetable crop
to grow out of virus infection through organic and biological farming
practices is a *major* development.

No wonder people are so upset about the NOP rules on
compost teas.  The sophistication among organic farmers and
crop advisory labs to implement advanced biological farming
aproaches -- such as sophisticated compost tea blends -- is
years ahead of 95% of the land-grant university of USDA
programs.

Incidentally, Agri-Energy hosts this piece that I am fond
of passing along; a synopsis of European and American
viewpoints on the importance of soil life and humus management.

The Soil Life - Humus - Soil Fertility Connection
http://www.agrienergy.net/renewabledata/soil%20life%20humus/soillife.html

Likewise, Midwest Bio-Systems hosts this piece on compost
quality.

Distinguishing Compost Quality
http://www.aeromasterequipment.com/compostquality.html

And this piece,
University Research on ACS Compost from Midwest Bio-Systems
http://www.aeromasterequipment.com/universityresearch.html

It is sometimes helpful to read a different viewpoint. In the
following piece, Johnny Agulia at ABC ORGANICS summarizes
the difference between "Plate-Count" and "Direct-Look" methods
for microbial analysis.  Be sure to read the "French Poodle effect"
to gain a hands-on appreciation for the biological farming approach
versus the NPK farming approach.
http://www.abcorganics.com/Compost%20Production.htm

Adios,
Steve Diver

.

From - Wed Nov 06 12:06:10 2002
X-UIDL: 322732255
X-Mozilla-Status: 0015
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A7DB1D720102; Wed, 06 Nov 2002 11:48:27 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id A81A6620138; Wed, 06 Nov 2002 11:49:30 -0500
Received: from nt-web (nt-web.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.140]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id WKLFXYR2; Wed, 6 Nov 2002 11:48:58 -0500
Received: FROM srvtask BY nt-web ; Wed Nov 06 11:48:54 2002 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 3501 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Wed, 6 Nov 2002 11:48:47 -0500
Received: from 130.184.56.248 by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Wed, 6 Nov 2002 11:48:46 -0500
Received: from ncatark.uark.edu ([130.184.56.238]) by ncatark.uark.edu
          (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id gA6GsnX22926 for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Wed, 6 Nov 2002 10:54:49 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <F10ed9VlLfYs3JgCJwu0001066a@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID:  <3DC94898.B770580F@ncatark.uark.edu>
Date:         Wed, 6 Nov 2002 10:51:37 -0600
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Steve Diver <steved@NCATARK.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Species diversity + Plate Culture
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322732255
Status: U

Still, there are other uses of plate counts...

One useful aspect of plate culture is to look at potential
for disease suppression and pathogen inhibition, by
microbial cultures or with compost samples.  Make a
compost extract and put your sample in there and let the
critters duke it out.

See:
Pathogen Inhibition Assay @ Bob Baars site
http://www.compara.nl/what_compost.htm

It is also interesting to just grow out microbes from composts
and soils and microbial inoculants.  You can "see" diversity for
yourself as the different microbial cultures start to grow on a plate.
Compare high diversity plates to low diversity plates -- a contrast
between well managed soils and neglected soils -- and you start
to get the idea what diversity is all about and why it is important.
There is a memorable piece in the Japanese "Life in the Soil"
video that illustrates this point.

You can also select microbial cultures that start to grow from soils
or composts, identify them by mass spectrophotometry, then culture
them, then add them as an adjunct to compost teas and liquid
biologicals.   Agri-Energy Resources in Illinois is doing this
on a commercial basis.
http://www.agrienergy.net/products/indexproducts.html
http://www.agrienergy.net/products/research_data.htm

The power of this approach can be understood from Midwest
Bio-Systems' experience in the Georgia vegetable grower's field,
where a virus in bell peppers was "arrested" through an
integrated eco-farming approach that included mineral balancing,
high quality compost application, and amended compost teas
obtained from Agri-Energy Resources.  Getting a vegetable crop
to grow out of virus infection through organic and biological farming
practices is a *major* development.

No wonder people are so upset about the NOP rules on
compost teas.  The sophistication among organic farmers and
crop advisory labs to implement advanced biological farming
aproaches -- such as sophisticated compost tea blends -- is
years ahead of 95% of the land-grant university of USDA
programs.

Incidentally, Agri-Energy hosts this piece that I am fond
of passing along; a synopsis of European and American
viewpoints on the importance of soil life and humus management.

The Soil Life - Humus - Soil Fertility Connection
http://www.agrienergy.net/renewabledata/soil%20life%20humus/soillife.html

Likewise, Midwest Bio-Systems hosts this piece on compost
quality.

Distinguishing Compost Quality
http://www.aeromasterequipment.com/compostquality.html

And this piece,
University Research on ACS Compost from Midwest Bio-Systems
http://www.aeromasterequipment.com/universityresearch.html

It is sometimes helpful to read a different viewpoint. In the
following piece, Johnny Agulia at ABC ORGANICS summarizes
the difference between "Plate-Count" and "Direct-Look" methods
for microbial analysis.  Be sure to read the "French Poodle effect"
to gain a hands-on appreciation for the biological farming approach
versus the NPK farming approach.
http://www.abcorganics.com/Compost%20Production.htm

Adios,
Steve Diver

.

From - Thu Oct 31 13:05:18 2002
X-UIDL: 322731849
X-Mozilla-Status: 0015
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id ADF348AC0136; Thu, 31 Oct 2002 12:52:51 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id ADE53EE00208; Thu, 31 Oct 2002 12:52:37 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNS11VC9; Thu, 31 Oct 2002 12:52:14 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 19511 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Thu, 31 Oct 2002 12:52:16 -0500
Received: from 130.184.56.248 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Thu, 31 Oct 2002 12:42:15 -0400
Received: from ncatark.uark.edu ([130.184.56.238]) by ncatark.uark.edu
          (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g9VHmIX00053 for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Thu, 31 Oct 2002 11:48:18 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID:  <3DC16C0A.4D6B1E61@ncatark.uark.edu>
Date:         Thu, 31 Oct 2002 11:44:43 -0600
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Steve Diver <steved@NCATARK.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731849
Status: U

I have been away a couple of weeks, traveling through
India examining biodynamic and organic agriculture,
so I am just now reading through this Sanet thread.

It so happens I also met Sanjay Aggarwal with Maple
Organics, who has plenty of experience working
with EM in agriculture and effluent waste streams.

It may be helpful to sunmmarize three microbial
pathways in relation to organic matter decomposition:

1. Aerobic thermophyllic
2. Putrefactive anaerobic
3. Fermentative anaerobic

Putrefactive anaerobic is the rotting manure that
sits in the open drawing flies.

If you take that same manure and mix it with biomass and
build a compost pile with proper C:N ratio, moisture,
and aeration, you get a thermophyllic heating process that
turns into a crumbly, dark, humus material known as compost.

If you spray the manure in the animal stall with EM it will
initiate a fermentative aneraobic microbial pathway and prevent
flies and odors.  You can later take that EM-sprayed manure to
the thermophyllic compost pile, or you can build an EM heap
and promote a breakdown process that results in fermented
biomass.

I do not consider humified compost and fermented biomass
to be the same thing, yet both are useful processes and products.

EM is fermentative anaerobic.  So is miso, kim chee,
tempeh, and a number of Oriential foods, as well as
ensilage for your dairy cow.

E. coli is a putrefactive organism, it is not compatible with EM.

E. coli in organic agriculture, compost teas, and related
biological farming technologies including EM is an overblown
topic, it seems to me.

Elaine Ingham has already summarized the compost tea
situation pretty well.

It is an unfortunate turn of events that NOP went down
the path of E. coli hysteria at the same time the compost tea
industry is taking off like wild fire, providing a dynamic new
tool for organic agriculture.

A 120 day waiting period kicks compost tea out of
the life cycle of the crop.  Yet it is the inoculation of
the leaf surface and the root surface with compost tea
which results in such a dynamic benefit to the crop,
especially at crucial stages of growth.

Compost teas provide soluble nutrients which promote
a noticeable greening of crops, they provide bioactive
compounds which function as biostimulants and effect
metabolic processes, and they provide beneficial
microorganicsm which coat the plant surfaces and
provide numerous biocontrol mechanisms.

Steve Diver


Edna wrote:
Sanjay mentioned using EM to make compost tea.  Elaine and others talked

about making sure the tea is aereated to prevent growth of E. coli.  As
I
understand it, EM is made up of organisms that ferment in the absence of

oxygen (anaerobic).  I'm curious what this means relative to the
potential
of multiplying any E. coli that may contaminate the EM juice.  Any
comments?
Edna

.

From - Thu Oct 31 13:05:18 2002
X-UIDL: 322731849
X-Mozilla-Status: 0015
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id ADF348AC0136; Thu, 31 Oct 2002 12:52:51 -0500
Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-5.05) id ADE53EE00208; Thu, 31 Oct 2002 12:52:37 -0500
Received: from srvtask (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2655.55)
	id VNS11VC9; Thu, 31 Oct 2002 12:52:14 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 19511 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Thu, 31 Oct 2002 12:52:16 -0500
Received: from 130.184.56.248 by SRVTASK.IFAS.UFL.EDU (SMTPL release 1.0f) with
          TCP; Thu, 31 Oct 2002 12:42:15 -0400
Received: from ncatark.uark.edu ([130.184.56.238]) by ncatark.uark.edu
          (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g9VHmIX00053 for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Thu, 31 Oct 2002 11:48:18 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID:  <3DC16C0A.4D6B1E61@ncatark.uark.edu>
Date:         Thu, 31 Oct 2002 11:44:43 -0600
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
              <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Steve Diver <steved@NCATARK.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Regulation of compost teas
To:           SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.250]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
X-UIDL: 322731849
Status: U

I have been away a couple of weeks, traveling through
India examining biodynamic and organic agriculture,
so I am just now reading through this Sanet thread.

It so happens I also met Sanjay Aggarwal with Maple
Organics, who has plenty of experience working
with EM in agriculture and effluent waste streams.

It may be helpful to sunmmarize three microbial
pathways in relation to organic matter decomposition:

1. Aerobic thermophyllic
2. Putrefactive anaerobic
3. Fermentative anaerobic

Putrefactive anaerobic is the rotting manure that
sits in the open drawing flies.

If you take that same manure and mix it with biomass and
build a compost pile with proper C:N ratio, moisture,
and aeration, you get a thermophyllic heating process that
turns into a crumbly, dark, humus material known as compost.

If you spray the manure in the animal stall with EM it will
initiate a fermentative aneraobic microbial pathway and prevent
flies and odors.  You can later take that EM-sprayed manure to
the thermophyllic compost pile, or you can build an EM heap
and promote a breakdown process that results in fermented
biomass.

I do not consider humified compost and fermented biomass
to be the same thing, yet both are useful processes and products.

EM is fermentative anaerobic.  So is miso, kim chee,
tempeh, and a number of Oriential foods, as well as
ensilage for your dairy cow.

E. coli is a putrefactive organism, it is not compatible with EM.

E. coli in organic agriculture, compost teas, and related
biological farming technologies including EM is an overblown
topic, it seems to me.

Elaine Ingham has already summarized the compost tea
situation pretty well.

It is an unfortunate turn of events that NOP went down
the path of E. coli hysteria at the same time the compost tea
industry is taking off like wild fire, providing a dynamic new
tool for organic agriculture.

A 120 day waiting period kicks compost tea out of
the life cycle of the crop.  Yet it is the inoculation of
the leaf surface and the root surface with compost tea
which results in such a dynamic benefit to the crop,
especially at crucial stages of growth.

Compost teas provide soluble nutrients which promote
a noticeable greening of crops, they provide bioactive
compounds which function as biostimulants and effect
metabolic processes, and they provide beneficial
microorganicsm which coat the plant surfaces and
provide numerous biocontrol mechanisms.

Steve Diver


Edna wrote:
Sanjay mentioned using EM to make compost tea.  Elaine and others talked

about making sure the tea is aereated to prevent growth of E. coli.  As
I
understand it, EM is made up of organisms that ferment in the absence of

oxygen (anaerobic).  I'm curious what this means relative to the
potential
of multiplying any E. coli that may contaminate the EM juice.  Any
comments?
Edna

.

From - Sun Apr 27 13:41:39 2003
X-UIDL: 347346125
X-Mozilla-Status: 0010
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A3C8C95A00D6; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 12:22:32 -0400
Received: by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix, from userid 1001)
	id 4C400B484C; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 12:23:14 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.87])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 8906DB4813
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 12:23:13 -0400 (EDT)
X-eGroups-Return: sentto-7527208-3176-1051460548-lfl=intrex.net@returns.groups.yahoo.com
Received: from [66.218.67.193] by n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Apr 2003 16:22:28 -0000
X-Sender: Soilfoodweb@aol.com
X-Apparently-To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 27 Apr 2003 16:22:27 -0000
Received: (qmail 62033 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2003 16:22:26 -0000
Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217)
  by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Apr 2003 16:22:26 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m08.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.163)
  by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 2003 16:22:26 -0000
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com
	by imo-m08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.22.) id r.bb.30bf51c1 (15863)
	 for <compost_tea@yahoogroups.com>; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 12:22:24 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from  aol.com (mow-m18.webmail.aol.com [64.12.180.134]) by air-id06.mx.aol.com (v93.8) with ESMTP id MAILINID62-3df73eac03c0282; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 12:22:24 -0400
To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Message-ID: <2DABBDCE.4A564EA0.404D8829@aol.com>
X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0
From: soilfoodweb@aol.com
X-Yahoo-Profile: soilfoodweb
MIME-Version: 1.0
Mailing-List: list compost_tea@yahoogroups.com; contact compost_tea-owner@yahoogroups.com
Delivered-To: mailing list compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Precedence: bulk
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:compost_tea-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 12:22:24 -0400
Subject: Re: [compost_tea] Growing nematodes
Reply-To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Spam-itxsa: -8.2
X-Note: Total weight is 1. NOABUSE
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347346125

At SFI, we have been working on how to culture nematodes in soil or in compost.  Not easy.  Doing little plastic bins with different nematodes added to them is hard.  Maintaining moisture is the tough part, because you forget to water the material in the bins, and then, guess what?  Too dry, nematodes are dead.

The bacterial-feeders are relatively much more easy to get going.  In Bruce Elliott's worm growing systems, the bacterial-feeders will be maintained, and typically will be enhanced, with time.  

Mark Sturges' batch culture worm composting system grows some GREAT numbers of bacterial-feeding nematodes, wonderful numbers of entomopathogenic nematodes, and a few fungal-feeding nematodes.  But you need an old-growth Doug fir forest to put your worm bins in to get the habitat that he has to grow these critters.  

Joe Richards worm compost (using a Bruce Elliott composting system) often has decent fungal-feeding nematodes, if I am recalling the data corrrectly.  Some of the B&B worm composts we've seen also have good fungal-feeders, with nice bacterial-feeder numbers.  We need to get these people on our website, so people know that they exist and have good product to sell.

I of course always want more data to know that the good guys are being maintained properly, but that's the scientist in me -must have data! 

Have data, will teach.  Should that be my motto?  Please realize that I won't talk about something unless I have data.  I'll say when there's no data, but then you cannot know whether I am saying that we have never tested, or the people who paid for the data won't let me talk about the results. 

Anyway, observation should lead people to the conclusion that the conditions in worm compost are right for most beneficial nematodes.  The question becomes only whether they have achieved those condition in their worm compost.  Still need data to know for certain. 

Can we get thermal compost with great beneficial nematodes numbers?  

We know that thermal compost CAN have good numbers, but so far, not consistently good numbers.  But then most thermal composters don't manage their compost with an eye to maintaining good biology.  They compost to reduce waste.  They have the wrong attitude about the reason they make compost.  

We worked with Freedom Organics, in New York, and they do thermal composting correctly, with an eye to the biology.  If anyone wants help making great thermal compost, they should contact Scott Schiable.  I have his phone number if you want to call him and see if you can get his help. 

Work with the Master Composters in Eugene, OR shows that with small piles, the correct mix of starting materials and turning on time, will result in good numbers of bacterial-feeding, decent numbers of fungal-feeding nematodes, and even ok numbers of predatory nematodes.  We're finishing up that work and will hopefully be publishing this data in the not too distant future.  

So, what is it about worm compost that sets the habitat correct for growing good nematodes?  Maintenance of moisture.  High numbers of bacteria and fungi (oh yeah, you have to be feeding the worms fungal foods in order to get the fungal-feeding nematodes.  Another reason most thermal compost doesn't have decent fungal-feeders - too active or total fungal biomass).  The good foods from the worms that support the continued growth of the beneficial species of bacteria and fungi.  Modification of the bacterial, fungal and protozoan communities by the worms.  Maybe modification of the nematode community as well, but we really don't have enough data on that to say for certain.  

Again, could thermal compost give us the same thing?  Probably, but thermal composters have to compost correctly, with an eye to improving the microbioal populations in the correct fashion first.  Large scale operators have to want to make a decent product, not just sell stuff.  

How do we effect this change?  We have to educate the public first.  Until thermal composting operations cannot sell their compost because the public refuses to buy it unless the right biology is present, they will not change.  In municipal composting operations, the regs will have to be changed first, before the operators will make any change.  

And until they are forced to do composting correctly, we'll keep getting stinky, smelly "putrefying organic matter" that is sold as "compost".  

So, start insisting that the person selling you compost show you that the compost has decent biology BEFORE you will buy that compost.  

Check the SFI website for the composts that DO meet good biological standards.  

Sorry, a bit of a soapbox here.  But you can see it's an issue we need to deal with.  Any ideas on how to mobilize this change? 

Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
SFI Corvallis, OR
SFI Port Jefferson, NY
SFI Lismore, NSW, Australia
SFI Hilversum, The Netherlands
SFI Cambridge, New Zealand
www.soilfoodweb.com

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/O10svD/Me7FAA/AG3JAA/0PSxlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
compost_tea-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 




From - Tue Apr 22 00:22:48 2003
X-UIDL: 347345839
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 10000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A8B7184800D6; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 23:36:23 -0400
Received: from intrex.net [209.42.230.16] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.13) id A8BC18440292; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 23:36:28 -0400
Message-ID: <3EA4E5D3.2020402@intrex.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 23:48:51 -0700
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
Organization: http://market-farming.com  --  Venaura Farm
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To:  lfl@intrex.net
Subject: Acres U.S.A. -- A Voice for Eco-Agriculture
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
 boundary="------------060702020205080602090908"
X-Declude-Sender: lfl@intrex.net [209.42.230.16]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. Whitelisted
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347345839

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------060702020205080602090908
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


<http://www.acresusa.com/tapes/thumbnail.asp?catid=45&pcid=3>

-- 
L.F.London
lfl@intrex.net
http://market-farming.com
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech

--------------060702020205080602090908
Content-Type: text/html;
 name="www.acresusa.com/tapes/thumbnail.asp?catid=45&pcid=3"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Content-Disposition: inline;
 filename="www.acresusa.com/tapes/thumbnail.asp?catid=45&pcid=3"
Content-Base: "http://www.acresusa.com/tapes/thumbnai
	l.asp?catid=45&pcid=3"
Content-Location: "http://www.acresusa.com/tapes/thumbnai
	l.asp?catid=45&pcid=3"




<html>
<HEAD><TITLE>Acres U.S.A. -- A Voice for Eco-Agriculture</TITLE>
<meta name="keywords" content="organic, sustainable, eco-agriculture, eco-farming, regenerative, farm, organic produce, organic grain, gardening, compost, composting, permaculture, horticulture, marketing, agriculture, soil fertility, earth, seed, seed saving, ecology, solar, earth, environment, environmental, acres, farm, farming, beneficial, homestead, alternative, recycle, turf, golf, recycling, natural, poison, pollution, non-toxic, chemical, agrichemical, pesticide, herbicide, market gardening, biodiversity, herb, herbal, bugs, landscape, manure, green manure, orchard, wheat grass, native plants, books, CSA, IPM, integrated pest  management, pests, insects, crops, livestock, cattle, pest control, homeopathy, health, healthy, grazing, livestock, dairy">
<meta name="description" content="Acres U.S.A. is North America's largest and oldest publisher of sustainable agriculture books and information teaching farmers how to grow healthy food without poisons using non-toxic, natural, environmental technologies while building our topsoil and sustaining our natural resources.">
<link href = "styles.css" rel="styleSheet" type="text/css"><!--image swapping script-->
<SCRIPT LANGUAGE="Javascript">
<!--
if(document.images) {home2=new Image(143,24); home1=new Image(143,24);
cart2=new Image(143,24); cart1=new Image(143,24);
catalog2=new Image(143,24); catalog1=new Image(143,24);
service2=new Image(143,24); service1=new Image(143,24);
about2=new Image(143,24); about1=new Image(143,24);
sample2=new Image(143,24); sample1=new Image(143,24);
ordernow2=new Image(143,24); ordernow1=new Image(143,24);
magazine2=new Image(143,24); magazine1=new Image(143,24);
events2=new Image(143,24); events1=new Image(143,24);
books2=new Image(143,24); books1=new Image(143,24);
tapes2=new Image(143,24); tapes1=new Image(143,24);
videos2=new Image(143,24); videos1=new Image(143,24);
toolbox2=new Image(143,24); toolbox1=new Image(143,24);
subscribe2=new Image(143,24); subscribe1=new Image(143,24);
magazinetext=new Image(143,24);
eventtext=new Image(143,24);
booktext=new Image(143,24);
videotext=new Image(143,24);
tapestext=new Image(143,24);
toolboxtext=new Image(143,24);
home2.src="../buttons/yhome2.gif";
home1.src="../buttons/yhome.gif";
cart2.src="../buttons/ycart2.gif";
cart1.src="../buttons/ycart.gif";
catalog2.src="../buttons/ycatalog2.gif";
catalog1.src="../buttons/ycatalog.gif";
service2.src="../buttons/yservice2.gif";
service1.src="../buttons/yservice.gif";
about2.src="../buttons/yabout2.gif";
about1.src="../buttons/yabout.gif";
magazine2.src="../buttons/gmagazineover.gif";
magazine1.src="../buttons/ymagazine.gif";
events2.src="../buttons/geventsover.gif";
events1.src="../buttons/yevents.gif";
videos2.src="../buttons/gvideosover.gif";
videos1.src="../buttons/yvideos.gif";
tapes2.src="../buttons/gtapesover.gif";
tapes1.src="../buttons/gtapes.gif";
toolbox2.src="../buttons/gtoolboxover.gif";
toolbox1.src="../buttons/ytoolbox.gif";
books2.src="../buttons/gbooksstay.gif";
books1.src="../buttons/ybooks.gif";
subscribe2.src="graphics/subscribe.gif";
subscribe1.src="graphics/subscribeover.gif";
magazinetext.src="../rollover/avoice.gif"
eventtext.src="../rollover/events.gif"
videotext.src="../rollover/video.gif"
tapestext.src="../rollover/tapes.gif"
toolboxtext.src="../rollover/toolbox.gif"
booktext.src="../rollover/books.gif"}
function chgImg(imgField,newImg) {
		if (document.images) {
			document[imgField].src= eval(newImg + ".src")
		}
	}

//-->
</SCRIPT>
</HEAD>
<body text="#000000" link="#339933" vlink="#339933" alink="#0099CC" topmargin="0" leftmargin="0">
<table width=* border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" height="103" valign=top vspace=0 summary="This table is for formatting purposes only.">
	 <tr>
	 	 <td rowspan="2" width="*" bgcolor="ffffff"><img src="../bordergraphics/logo.gif" width="463" border="0" height="95" alt=" Welcome to Acres USA"></td>
	 	 <td width="*" bgcolor="ffffff"><img src="../bordergraphics/space.gif" width="1" height="90" border="0" alt=""></td>
	 </tr>
	 <tr>
	 	 <td bgcolor="black" colspan="2" width="*"><img src="../bordergraphics/space.gif" width="195" height="5" border="0" alt=""></td>
	 </tr>
	 <tr>
	 	 <td width="463"><img src="../bordergraphics/logobottom.gif" width="463" border="0" height="5"></td>
	 	 <td width="322" bgcolor=ffffff><img src="../bordergraphics/space.gif" height="5" width="191" border="0" alt=""></td>
<td width="5" height="5" bgcolor="black"><img src="../bordergraphics/space.gif" height="5" width="5" border="0" alt=""></td>
	 </tr>
	 <tr>
	 	 <td colspan="3" bgcolor="black" width="*"><img src="../bordergraphics/space.gif" height="5" width="5" border="0" alt=""></td>
	 </tr>
	 </table>
<table width=* border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"  height="60" valign=top vspace=0 summary="This table is for formatting purposes only.">
	<tr>
		<td width="4" bgcolor="black" rowspan="4"><img src="../bordergraphics/space.gif" width="4" border="0" alt=""></td>
		<td width="194" rowspan="4"><img src="../bordergraphics/yellowtoppic.jpg" width="194" height=81 border="0" alt="Acres USA"></td>
		<td width="1" height=9 bgcolor=#FFCC66 background="../bordergraphics/yellowbac.gif"><img src="../bordergraphics/space.gif" width="1" height="1" border="0" alt=""></td>
		<td width="*" bgcolor=#FFCC66 background="../bordergraphics/yellowbac.gif"><img src="../bordergraphics/space.gif" width="1" height="9" border="0" alt=""></td>
		<td width="*" rowspan="4"><img src="../bordergraphics/yellowend.gif" width="61" border="0" height="81"></td>
    </tr>
	<tr>
		<td width="*" bgcolor="black" colspan="2"><img src="../bordergraphics/space.gif" height="5" border="0" alt=""></td>
	</tr>
	<tr>
		<td width="531" bgcolor="ffffff" colspan="2"  align=center><IMG SRC="../rollover/tapes.gif" WIDTH=400 HEIGHT=34 NAME="textField" alt="A Voice for Eco-Agriculture"></td>
	</tr>
	<tr>
		<td width="*" bgcolor="ffffff" align=center>
		<table border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width=* height="30" summary="This table is for formatting purposes only.">
		<tr>
			<td><A HREF="../magazines/magazine.htm" onMouseover="chgImg('gmagazine3','magazine2');chgImg('textField','magazinetext')" 	onMouseout="chgImg('gmagazine3','magazine1');chgImg('textField','tapestext')"><IMG SRC="../buttons/ymagazine.gif" WIDTH=69 HEIGHT=30 border="0" NAME="gmagazine3" alt="magazines"></A></td>
			<td bgcolor=ffffff align=center><img src="../buttons/ydash.gif" width="2" height="30" border="0"></td>
			<td><A HREF="../events/events.htm" onMouseover="chgImg('gevents3','events2');chgImg('textField','eventtext')" onMouseout="chgImg('gevents3','events1');chgImg('textField','tapestext')"><IMG SRC="../buttons/yevents.gif" WIDTH=50 HEIGHT=30 border="0" NAME="gevents3" alt="events"></A></td>
			<td bgcolor=ffffff align=center><img src="../buttons/ydash.gif" width="2" height="30" border="0" alt="dash"></td>
			<td><A HREF="../books/books.asp?pcid=2" onMouseover="chgImg('gbook3','books2');chgImg('textField','booktext')" onMouseout="chgImg('gbook3','books1');chgImg('textField','tapestext')"><IMG SRC="../buttons/ybooks.gif" WIDTH=47 HEIGHT=30 border="0" NAME="gbook3" alt="books"></A></td>
			<td bgcolor=ffffff align=center> <img src="../buttons/ydash.gif" width="2" height="30" border="0" alt="dash"></td>
			<td><A HREF="../tapes/tapes.asp?pcid=3" onMouseover="chgImg('gtapes3','gtapes3');chgImg('textField','tapestext')" onMouseout="chgImg('gtapes3','gtapes3');chgImg('textField','tapestext')"><IMG SRC="../buttons/gtapesstay.gif" WIDTH=88 HEIGHT=30 border="0" NAME="gtapes3" alt="tapes"></A></td>
			<td bgcolor=ffffff align=center> <img src="../buttons/ydash.gif" width="2" height="30" border="0" alt="dash"></td>
			<td><A HREF="../videos/videos.htm" onMouseover="chgImg('gvideos3','videos2');chgImg('textField','videotext')" onMouseout="chgImg('gvideos3','videos1');chgImg('textField','tapestext')"><IMG SRC="../buttons/yvideos.gif" WIDTH=52 HEIGHT=30 border="0" NAME="gvideos3" alt="videos"></A></td>
			<td bgcolor=ffffff align=center> <img src="../buttons/ydash.gif" width="2" height="30" border="0" alt="dash"></td>
			<td><A HREF="../toolbox/toolbox.htm" onMouseover="chgImg('gtoolbox3','toolbox2');chgImg('textField','toolboxtext')" onMouseout="chgImg('gtoolbox3','toolbox1');chgImg('textField','tapestext')"><IMG SRC="../buttons/ytoolbox.gif" WIDTH=62 HEIGHT=30 border="0" NAME="gtoolbox3" alt="toolbox"></A></td>

		</tr>
		</table>
		</td>
	</tr>


</table>
<table width=* cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"  height="*" border="0" bgcolor=ffffff valign=top vspace=0 summary="This table is for formatting purposes only.">
	<tr>
		<td width="4" height=100% bgcolor="black"><img src="../bordergraphics/space.gif" width="4" height="5" border="0" alt=""></td>
		<td width="133" valign=top bgcolor=#FFCC66 background="../bordergraphics/yellowbac.gif">
		<table width="133" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" bgcolor=#FFCC66 background="../bordergraphics/yellowbac.gif"  border="0" summary="This table is for formatting purposes only.">
			<tr valign=top bgcolor=#FFCC66>
			<td width="133" valign=top height="80">
			<img src="../bordergraphics/yellowpic.jpg" width="133" height="80" border="0" alt="Acres USA">
			</td></tr>
			<tr><td width="133" align="center">
<form method="POST" action="/tapes/results.asp?action=search&pcid=3"><font face="arial, verdana, helvetica" color="#339933" size="2">
<b>Search our audio collection</b></font>
<input type="text" name="keyword" size="10">
<input input type="image" SRC=../bordergraphics/go.gif name="go" align=right border="0" width="35" height="30" alt="Search">
<p></p>
</form>

			<p>&nbsp;
			</td></tr>
			<tr><td width="133" height=40>
			<img src="../bordergraphics/space.gif"  width=5 height=40 border="0" alt="">
			</td></tr>
			<tr><td width="133">
				<tr align=right>
          <td width=133> <A HREF="../magazines/magazine.htm" onMouseOver="home.src=home2.src" onMouseOut="home.src=home1.src">
            <IMG NAME="home" SRC="../buttons/yhome.gif" border="0" WIDTH=124 HEIGHT=25 ALT="Home Page"></A></td>
        </tr>
				<tr><td>
				<img src="../bordergraphics/space.gif"  width=5 height=5 border="0" alt=""></td></tr>
				<tr align=right>
          <td width=133> <A HREF="../cgi-bin/cart32.exe/acresusa-ItemList" onMouseOver="cart.src=cart2.src" onMouseOut="cart.src=cart1.src">
            <IMG NAME="cart" SRC="../buttons/ycart.gif" border="0" WIDTH=124 HEIGHT=25 ALT="Shopping Cart"></A></td>
        </tr>
				<tr><td>
				<img src="../bordergraphics/space.gif"  width=5 height=5 border="0" alt=""></td></tr>
				<tr align=right><td width=133>
				<A HREF="../other/freesample.htm" onMouseOver="catalog.src=catalog2.src" onMouseOut="catalog.src=catalog1.src">
				<IMG NAME="catalog" SRC="../buttons/ycatalog.gif" border="0" width=124 height=25 ALT="Our Catalog"></A></td></tr>
				<tr><td>
				<img src="../bordergraphics/space.gif"  width=5 height=5 border="0" alt=""></td></tr>
				<tr align=right><td width=133>
				<A HREF="../other/services.htm" onMouseOver="service.src=service2.src" onMouseOut="service.src=service1.src">
				<IMG NAME="service" SRC="../buttons/yservice.gif" border="0" WIDTH=124 HEIGHT=25 ALT="Customer Service"></A></td></tr>
				<tr><td>
				<img src="../bordergraphics/space.gif"  width=5 height=5 border="0" alt=""></td></tr>
				<tr align=right><td width=133>
				<A HREF="../other/about.htm" onMouseOver="about.src=about2.src" onMouseOut="about.src=about1.src">
				<IMG NAME="about" SRC="../buttons/yabout.gif" border="0" WIDTH=124 HEIGHT=25 ALT="About Acres USA"></A></TD></TR>
				<TR><TD width="133">
				<img src="../bordergraphics/space.gif"  width=5 height=60 border="0" alt=""></TD></TR>
				<tr><td><!-- START CODE -->
<FORM ACTION="http://lb.bcentral.com/ex/manage/subscriberprefs.aspx" METHOD="POST">
<p align="center"> 
<center>
<B><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2" color="#339933">
Receive e-mail notification of new books &amp; events. Enter your e-mail address below.</font></B> 
<BR>
<input type="text" name="email" size="10" /></center>
<INPUT TYPE="HIDDEN" NAME="customerid" value="21868" />
<input type="image" SRC=../bordergraphics/send.gif name="join" border="0" align=right vspace=4 width="64" height="30" alt="Join!">
</FORM>
<!-- END CODE -->
</td></tr>
		<TR><TD width="133">
				<img src="../bordergraphics/space.gif"  width=5 height=60 border="0" alt=""></TD></TR>
			</table>

       <td width=5 bgcolor=black><img src="../bordergraphics/space.gif"  width=5 height=5 border="0" alt=""></td>
       <td width=10 bgcolor=ffffff><img src="../bordergraphics/space.gif"  width=10 height=5 border="0" alt=""></td>
	   <td valign=top width="*">
 <!--Main content inner table------>


<table cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 width=* border=0 summary="This table is for formatting purposes only.">
<tr><td width=10 colspan=5 align=left><img src="../bordergraphics/space.gif" width=10 height=30 border=0 alt="">
<tr><td colspan=5 align=left ><strong><font face="arial, verdana, helvetica" color=ff9900 font size=5><u>
Audio Tapes/Elaine Ingham, Ph.D.
</u></font></strong></td></tr>
<tr><td width=10 colspan=5 align=left><img src="../bordergraphics/space.gif" width=10 height=30 border=0 alt="">
<tr>
<td colspan=3 bgcolor=ffffff width=475 valign=top height=96><font face="arial, verdana, helvetica" color=#FFCC66 font size=5><I>Elaine Ingham is gaining a worldwide reputation for her understanding of soil microlife. Her soil foodweb concept, insights on compost and compost tea, and life in the soil are groundbreaking.</I></Font></td>
<td rowspan=4 bgcolor=ffffff><img src="../bordergraphics/space.gif" width=10 height=1 border=0 alt=""></td>
<td rowspan=4 bgcolor=ffffff width=145 valign=top><table width=145  cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 border=0 summary="This table contains the entire catalog's different section links.">
  <tr>
<td bgcolor=#FFCC66 background="../bordergraphics/yellowbac.gif" height=12 colspan=2><center><strong><font face="arial, verdana, helvetica" color=#996633>Browse Our Catalog</font></strong></center></td>
		       </tr>
			   <tr><td bgcolor=ffffff colspan=2><img src="../bordergraphics/space.gif" width=10 height=10 border=0 alt=""></td></tr>
			   <tr>
			   	   <td bgcolor=ffffff><img src="../bordergraphics/space.gif" width=10 height=10 border=0 alt=""></td>
			   	   <td align=left ><font face="arial, verdana, helvetica">
                  <a href=thumbnail.asp?catid=42&pcid=3><font color=#996633>Dr. Arden Andersen</font></a><BR>
                  <a href=thumbnail.asp?catid=48&pcid=3><font color=#996633>Jerry Brunetti</font></a><BR>
                  <a href=thumbnail.asp?catid=49&pcid=3><font color=#996633>Phil Callahan, Ph.D.</font></a><BR>
                  <a href=thumbnail.asp?catid=44&pcid=3><font color=#996633>Sally Fallon</font></a><BR>
                  <a href=thumbnail.asp?catid=45&pcid=3><font color=#996633>Elaine Ingham, Ph.D.</font></a><BR>
                  <a href=thumbnail.asp?catid=41&pcid=3><font color=#996633>Neal Kinsey</font></a><BR>
                  <a href=thumbnail.asp?catid=40&pcid=3><font color=#996633>Joel Salatin</font></a><BR>
                  <a href=thumbnail.asp?catid=43&pcid=3><font color=#996633>Dan Skow, D.V.M.</font></a><BR>
                  <a href=thumbnail.asp?catid=46&pcid=3><font color=#996633>Charles Walters</font></a><BR>
                  <a href=thumbnail.asp?catid=47&pcid=3><font color=#996633>Phil Wheeler, Ph.D.</font></a><BR>
                  <a href=thumbnail.asp?catid=50&pcid=3><font color=#996633>Gary Zimmer</font></a><BR>
                  <a href=thumbnail.asp?catid=56&pcid=3><font color=#996633><br>2002 Conference</font></a><BR>
                  <a href=thumbnail.asp?catid=34&pcid=3><font color=#996633>2001 Conference</font></a><BR>
                  <a href=thumbnail.asp?catid=29&pcid=3><font color=#996633>2000 Conference</font></a><BR>
                  <a href=thumbnail.asp?catid=32&pcid=3><font color=#996633>1999 Conference</font></a><BR>
                  <a href=thumbnail.asp?catid=33&pcid=3><font color=#996633>1999 Subtle Energies<br>  in Agriculture</font></a><BR>
                  <a href=thumbnail.asp?catid=35&pcid=3><font color=#996633>1998 Conference</font></a><BR>
                  <a href=thumbnail.asp?catid=36&pcid=3><font color=#996633>1998 Eco-Ag/<br>  Southwest</font></a><BR>
                  <a href=thumbnail.asp?catid=39&pcid=3><font color=#996633>1998 Eco-Ag/East</font></a><BR>
                  <a href=thumbnail.asp?catid=37&pcid=3><font color=#996633>1997 Conference</font></a><BR>
                  <a href=thumbnail.asp?catid=38&pcid=3><font color=#996633>1996 Conference</font></a><BR>
                  <a href=thumbnail.asp?catid=52&pcid=3><font color=#996633>1995 Conference</font></a><BR>
                  <a href=thumbnail.asp?catid=53&pcid=3><font color=#996633>1994 Conference</font></a><BR>
                  <a href=thumbnail.asp?catid=54&pcid=3><font color=#996633>1993 Conference</font></a><BR>
                  <a href=thumbnail.asp?catid=55&pcid=3><font color=#996633>1992 Conference</font></a><BR>
                  <a href=thumbnail.asp?catid=57&pcid=3><font color=#996633>1991 Conference</font></a><BR>
                  <a href=thumbnail.asp?catid=58&pcid=3><font color=#996633>1990 Conference</font></a><BR>
                  <a href=thumbnail.asp?catid=59&pcid=3><font color=#996633>1989 Conference</font></a><BR>
                  <a href=thumbnail.asp?catid=60&pcid=3><font color=#996633>1988 Conference</font></a><BR>
                  <a href=thumbnail.asp?catid=61&pcid=3><font color=#996633>1976 Conference</font></a><BR>
</td>
			   </tr>
		  </table>
</td></tr>
<tr>
       <td colspan=3 bgcolor=#FFCC66><img src="../bordergraphics/space.gif" width=10 height=5 border=0 alt=""></td>
</tr>
<tr valign=top>
          <td width=240 bgcolor=ffffff height=1>
            <table width=* cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 border=0 summary="This table contains this page's featured books.">
	  	   	   <tr valign=top>
		   	   	   <td bgcolor=ffffff height=12 colspan=2><strong><font face="arial, verdana, helvetica" font size=4><BR>
                  <b><font color=000000>Elaine Ingham, Ph.D.:</font></b></font></strong></td>
		       </tr>
		   <tr><td bgcolor=ffffff colspan=2><img src="../bordergraphics/space.gif" width=10 height=10 border=0 alt=""></td></tr>
              <tr valign=top>
                <td align=left height=1>
  <p><font face="arial, verdana, helvetica"><b><a href=closeup.asp?prodid=588&catid=45&pcid=3><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color=#996633 >Life in the Soil — Understanding the Soil Foodweb</font></a></b><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" ><br>
            <font size="-1" color=000000><i>Elaine Ingham, Ph.D., audio tape, 1997.</i></font></font></font></p>
  <p><font face="arial, verdana, helvetica"><b><a href=closeup.asp?prodid=509&catid=45&pcid=3><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color=#996633 >Composting for Peak Foodweb Life</font></a></b><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" ><br>
            <font size="-1" color=000000><i>Elaine Ingham, Ph.D., audio tape, 2001.</i></font></font></font></p>
  <p><font face="arial, verdana, helvetica"><b><a href=closeup.asp?prodid=391&catid=45&pcid=3><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color=#996633 >Understanding the Soil Foodweb</font></a></b><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" ><br>
            <font size="-1" color=000000><i>Elaine Ingham, Ph.D., audio tape, 2000.</i></font></font></font></p>
  <p><font face="arial, verdana, helvetica"><b><a href=closeup.asp?prodid=594&catid=45&pcid=3><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color=#996633 >Life in the Soil Workshop</font></a></b><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" ><br>
            <font size="-1" color=000000><i>Elaine Ingham, Ph.D. & Jim Barlow, 2 tape audio set, 1997.</i></font></font></font></p>
  <p><font face="arial, verdana, helvetica"><b><a href=closeup.asp?prodid=823&catid=45&pcid=3><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color=#996633 >Compost Tea 501</font></a></b><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" ><br>
            <font size="-1" color=000000><i>Elaine Ingham, Ph.D., audio tape, 2002.</i></font></font></font></p>
 </td>
  </tr>
</table></td>
          <td width=10 bgcolor=ffffff height=100><img src="../bordergraphics/space.gif" width=10 height=8 border=0 alt=""></td>
          <td width=233 bgcolor=ffffff valign=top align=middle height=1>
            <table cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 border=0 width=233>
              <tr valign=top>
                <td height=100><BR>
 <a href=closeup.asp?prodid=588&catid=45&pcid=3><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" ><img src=../tapes/graphics/ingham_elaine.gif alt="Life in the Soil — Understanding the Soil Foodweb" border=0></font></a>
  <p><font face="arial, verdana, helvetica" color=#996633><b><a href=closeup.asp?prodid=405&catid=45&pcid=3><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color=#996633>Compost & Compost Teas</font></a></b><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><br>
            <font size="-1" color=000000><i>Elaine Ingham, 2 tape audio set, 2000.</i></font></font></font></p>
  <p><font face="arial, verdana, helvetica" color=#996633><b><a href=closeup.asp?prodid=530&catid=45&pcid=3><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color=#996633>Life in the Soil, Genetic Engineering & the Future of Agriculture</font></a></b><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><br>
            <font size="-1" color=000000><i>Elaine Ingham, Ph.D., audio tape, 2001.</i></font></font></font></p>
<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>




                 </td>
              </tr></table></td>
</tr>
<tr><td colspan=3><table cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 border=0 width=*><tr><td width=475 colspan=0 align=left summary="This table is for formatting purposes only.">
</td></tr></table></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="5" ><img src="../bordergraphics/space.gif" width="10" height="15" border="0" alt=""></td></tr>


<tr>
          <td colspan="5" align=middle><font face="arial, verdana, helvetica" color="#009933"><A href=../magazines/magazine.htm>Homepage</a>
            | <A href=../cgi-bin/cart32.exe/acresusa-ItemList>My Cart</a> | <A href=../other/services.htm>Customer
            Service</a> | </font><A href=../other/about.htm><font face="arial, verdana, helvetica" color="#009933">About
            Us </font></a></td>
        </tr>
<tr><td colspan="5" align=middle><font face="arial, verdana, helvetica" size="2">  1-800-355-5313 <B>&middot;</B>  (512) 892-4400 <B>&middot;</B>  fax   (512) 892-4448</font></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="5" align=middle><font face="arial, verdana, helvetica" size="1">&copy; 2002 Acres U.S.A. </font></td></tr>
<tr>
          <td colspan="5" align=middle><font face="arial, verdana, helvetica" color="#009933" size="1"><A href=../other/legal.htm>Legal
            Information</a></font></td>
        </tr>
</table>
</td>
			</tr>
       </table>
</body>
</html>



--------------060702020205080602090908--




From - Tue May 06 05:03:59 2003
X-UIDL: 347346697
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 10000000
Received: from smtp.intrex.net [209.42.192.250] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A745DEFD0026; Tue, 06 May 2003 04:50:13 -0400
Received: from intrex.net [209.42.230.43] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.13) id A74614C00234; Tue, 06 May 2003 04:50:14 -0400
Message-ID: <3EB7A476.1000009@intrex.net>
Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 05:03:02 -0700
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
Organization: http://market-farming.com  --  Venaura Farm
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To:  lfl@intrex.net
Subject: Raingrow
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
 boundary="------------090200010007010207020007"
X-Declude-Sender: lfl@intrex.net [209.42.230.43]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. Whitelisted
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347346697

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------090200010007010207020007
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


<http://www.raingrow.com/superflow.html>

-- 
L.F.London
lfl@intrex.net
http://market-farming.com
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech

--------------090200010007010207020007
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1;
 name="www.raingrow.com/superflow.html"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline;
 filename="www.raingrow.com/superflow.html"
Content-Base: "http://www.raingrow.com/superflow.html"
Content-Location: "http://www.raingrow.com/superflow.html"


<html>
<head>
<title>Raingrow</title>

<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-885=
9-1">
<META NAME=3D"description" content=3D"RainGrow is committed to create and=
 produce high quality organic fertilizers and crop aid products. Our prod=
ucts are State of the Earth(tm). Our business is the health of our client=
s.  Our commitment is to conserve our planet">

<META NAME=3D"keywords" content=3D"RainGrow, organic fertilizers, organic=
s, fertilizers, agricultural products, crop aid products, bloom-a-long, b=
loom along, superflow, natural kelp, surfactants, spreaders, organic gard=
ening, okanagan gardening, british columbia gardening, gardening products=
, organic bonemeal, composting, gardening research, development">
 =20

<link rel=3D"stylesheet" type=3D"text/css" href=3D"raingrow.css">

<style type=3D"text/css">
<!--
A:hover { background-repeat: repeat-x; COLOR: #000000; text-decoration: n=
one}
a:link{text-decoration: none;}
a:visited{text-decoration: none;}
-->
</style>
		<csscriptdict import>
			<script type=3D"text/javascript" src=3D"GeneratedItems/CSScriptLib.js"=
></script>
		</csscriptdict>
		<csactiondict>
			<script type=3D"text/javascript"><!--
var preloadFlag =3D true;

// --></script>
		</csactiondict>
		<script language=3D"JavaScript">
<!--
if (document.images) {
        splashmenu0on =3D new Image();
        splashmenu0on.src =3D "./images/link-home-on.gif";=20
        splashmenu0off =3D new Image();
        splashmenu0off.src =3D "./images/link-home-off.gif";=20
        splashmenu1on =3D new Image();
        splashmenu1on.src =3D "./images/link-products-on.gif";=20
        splashmenu1off =3D new Image();
        splashmenu1off.src =3D "./images/link-products-off.gif";=20
        splashmenu2on =3D new Image();
        splashmenu2on.src =3D "./images/link-stores-on.gif";=20
        splashmenu2off =3D new Image();
        splashmenu2off.src =3D "./images/link-stores-off.gif";=20
        splashmenu3on =3D new Image();
        splashmenu3on.src =3D "./images/link-research-on.gif";=20
        splashmenu3off =3D new Image();
        splashmenu3off.src =3D "./images/link-research-off.gif";=20
        splashmenu4on =3D new Image();
        splashmenu4on.src =3D "./images/link-commercial-on.gif";=20
        splashmenu4off =3D new Image();
        splashmenu4off.src =3D "./images/link-commercial-off.gif";=20
        splashmenu5on =3D new Image();
        splashmenu5on.src =3D "./images/link-about-on.gif";=20
        splashmenu5off =3D new Image();
        splashmenu5off.src =3D "./images/link-about-off.gif";=20
        splashmenu6on =3D new Image();
        splashmenu6on.src =3D "./images/link-contact-on.gif";=20
        splashmenu6off =3D new Image();
        splashmenu6off.src =3D "./images/link-contact-off.gif";=20
}
function changeImages(){
        if(document.images){
                for (var i=3D0; i<changeImages.arguments.length; i+=3D2) =
{
                        document[changeImages.arguments[i]].src =3D eval(=
changeImages.arguments[i+1] + ".src");
                }
        }
}
// -->
</script>

</head>

<body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" link=3D"#00B121" vlink=3D"#00B121" alink=3D"#00=
B121">

<a name=3D"top"><center>
<table border=3D"0" width=3D"714" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0">
  <tr>
    <td valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"./images/header-top.gif" border=3D"0">=
</a></td>
  </tr>
  <tr>
    <td valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"./images/header-bottom.gif" border=3D"=
0"><a href=3D"index.html" onMouseOver=3D"changeImages('splashmenu0', 'spl=
ashmenu0on');return true" onMouseOut=3D"changeImages('splashmenu0', 'spla=
shmenu0off');return true"><img src=3D"./images/link-home-off.gif" border=3D=
"0" name=3D"splashmenu0"></a><a href=3D"products.html" onMouseOver=3D"cha=
ngeImages('splashmenu1', 'splashmenu1on');return true" onMouseOut=3D"chan=
geImages('splashmenu1', 'splashmenu1off');return true"><img src=3D"./imag=
es/link-products-off.gif" border=3D"0" name=3D"splashmenu1"></a><img src=3D=
"./images/link-stores-off.gif" border=3D"0" name=3D"splashmenu2"><a href=3D=
"research.html" onMouseOver=3D"changeImages('splashmenu3', 'splashmenu3on=
');return true" onMouseOut=3D"changeImages('splashmenu3', 'splashmenu3off=
');return true"><img src=3D"./images/link-research-off.gif" border=3D"0" =
name=3D"splashmenu3"></a><a href=3D"commercial.html" onMouseOver=3D"chang=
eImages('splashmenu4', 'splashmenu4on');return true" onMouseOut=3D"change=
Images('splashmenu4', 'splashmenu4off');return true"><img src=3D"./images=
/link-commercial-off.gif" border=3D"0" name=3D"splashmenu4"></a><a href=3D=
"about.html" onMouseOver=3D"changeImages('splashmenu5', 'splashmenu5on');=
return true" onMouseOut=3D"changeImages('splashmenu5', 'splashmenu5off');=
return true"><img src=3D"./images/link-about-off.gif" border=3D"0" name=3D=
"splashmenu5"></a><a href=3D"contact.html" onMouseOver=3D"changeImages('s=
plashmenu6', 'splashmenu6on');return true" onMouseOut=3D"changeImages('sp=
lashmenu6', 'splashmenu6off');return true"><img src=3D"./images/link-cont=
act-off.gif" border=3D"0" name=3D"splashmenu6"></a><img src=3D"./images/l=
ink-spacer.gif" border=3D"0"></td>
  </tr>
</table>

<table border=3D"0" width=3D"714" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0">
  <tr>=20
    <td valign=3D"top">
   =20
<table height=3D"400" border=3D"0" width=3D"517" cellpadding=3D"0" cellsp=
acing=3D"0">
  <tr>=20
    <td width=3D"20" valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"./images/spacer.gif" bord=
er=3D"0" width=3D"20" height=3D"1"></td>
    <td valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"./images/header-tail.gif" border=3D"0"=
><br><br><img src=3D"./images/header-superflow.gif" border=3D"0"><br>
<br><font class=3D"sansblack">
Superflow&#153; is a natural surfactant or "spreader" increasing the=20
effectiveness of spray coverage and penetration. Made from the=20
natural extracts of special South American plants, these extracts=20
provide a 100% saponin product creating a natural plant surfactant or=20
"spreader". These special properties provide many advantages in=20
supplying nutrients to plants, such as:
<br><br>
<ul type=3D"square">
<li>Because saponins break water tension, Superflow allows better=20
coverage of products such as liquid fertilizers, because they will=20
spread, increasing their effectiveness due to more complete=20
assimilation by the plant.
<li>Research has shown that the saponins found in Superflow make root=20
system cell walls more permeable, allowing better uptake of nutrients=20
by the root system.
<li>Superflow will generate better penetration in compact, root-bound=20
or high-density thatch soils. it will tend to loosen these soils=20
allowing for more complete contact with the root system.
<li>The saponins in Superflow are a natural vegetable steroid, making=20
plants more healthy and sturdy, thereby more drought resistant and=20
less susceptible to stressing.
<li>Superflow saponins allow water to drain off plants quickly, which=20
reduces risk of nematode and fungal concerns in turf and fruit=20
applications in moist or temperate climates.
<li>Superflow promotes leaching of high salt content in soils and=20
increases microbiological activity.
<li>Superflow is filtered to 74 microns, allowing use in fertigation syst=
ems.
<li>Because Superflow is made from organic compounds, it is safe for=20
the environment and poses no risk to water sources, wildlife or=20
humans.
</ul>
<font class=3D"sansblacklarge"><b>Application and Use:</b></font>
<br><br>
As an adjuvant when spraying a liquid fertilizer or amendment, add=20
0.1% Superflow by volume to the spray solution, i.e. 100 ml Superflow=20
to 100 litres of solution.
<br><br>
When applying Superflow by itself on soil or turf, use 500 to 1000 ml=20
of Superflow to cover 1000 sq metres (approx 10,000 sq ft) by=20
diluting Superflow with water at a rate of 1 part Superflow to 100=20
parts water.
<br><br>
</font></td>
    <td width=3D"20" valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"./images/spacer.gif" bord=
er=3D"0" width=3D"20" height=3D"1"></td>
  </tr>
</table>
   =20
    </td>
    <td rowspan=3D"3" background=3D"./images/backing-liza.gif" width=3D"1=
97" valign=3D"top"><img src=3D"./images/sidebar-superflow.jpg" border=3D"=
0"></td>
  </tr>
  <tr>=20
    <td><center><font class=3D"sansblack"><a href=3D"index.html">Home</a>=
 | <a href=3D"products.html">Products</a> | Stores | <a href=3D"research.=
html">Research</a> | <a href=3D"commercial.html">Commercial</a> | <a href=
=3D"about.html">About Us</a> | <a href=3D"contact.html">Contact Us</a></f=
ont></center></td>
  </tr>
</table>

<br> =20
<font class=3D"sansgreysmall">&#169;2002 RainGrow&#153; Fertilizers. All =
rights reserved.<br>Raingrow&#153;, Bloom-A-Long and State-of-the-Earth a=
re registered trademarks of RainGrow&#153; Fertilizers.<br></font>
</center>   =20

</body>
</html>
--------------090200010007010207020007--




From - Thu May 22 01:10:38 2003
X-UIDL: 347347731
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id ADF5723D00D4; Wed, 21 May 2003 19:38:29 -0400
Received: by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix, from userid 1001)
	id 912DAB49BF; Wed, 21 May 2003 19:40:03 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.66])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 22DD2B49A8
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Wed, 21 May 2003 19:40:02 -0400 (EDT)
X-eGroups-Return: sentto-7527208-3695-1053560306-lfl=intrex.net@returns.groups.yahoo.com
Received: from [66.218.66.94] by n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 May 2003 23:38:27 -0000
X-Sender: jery_morgan@hotmail.com
X-Apparently-To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 21 May 2003 23:38:25 -0000
Received: (qmail 70923 invoked from network); 21 May 2003 23:38:25 -0000
Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216)
  by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 May 2003 23:38:25 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.77)
  by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 May 2003 23:38:25 -0000
Received: from [66.218.67.150] by n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 May 2003 23:38:24 -0000
To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Message-ID: <bah2lg+larf@eGroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <01C31EAB.31D09520.geomouchet@Qnet.com>
User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82
X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster
From: "jery_morgan" <jery_morgan@hotmail.com>
X-Originating-IP: 68.6.84.38
X-Yahoo-Profile: jery_morgan
MIME-Version: 1.0
Mailing-List: list compost_tea@yahoogroups.com; contact compost_tea-owner@yahoogroups.com
Delivered-To: mailing list compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Precedence: bulk
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:compost_tea-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 23:38:24 -0000
Subject: [compost_tea] Re: plants that attract/support microbes?
Reply-To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Spam-itxsa: -28.4
X-Note: Total weight is 1. NOABUSE
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347347731

I think i heard the soil under banannas and bamboo are rich in 
beneficial soil life.  I think one probably banannas high in bact. 
and probably the bamboo high in fungi.  does that sound right?  

--- In compost_tea@yahoogroups.com, George and Paulette Mouchet 
<geomouchet@Q...> wrote:
> I posted this question awhile back and didn't get any response.  
I'll try again:
> 
> Are there specific plants that attract and support high colonies of 
beneficial soil organisms?
> 
> Paulette


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/uetFAA/0PSxlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
compost_tea-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 




From - Fri May 23 00:33:01 2003
X-UIDL: 347347762
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id ABAEBCCF009E; Thu, 22 May 2003 23:55:26 -0400
Received: by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix, from userid 1001)
	id 10872B49D4; Thu, 22 May 2003 23:56:08 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from n39.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n39.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.107])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id E0F53B4E79
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Thu, 22 May 2003 23:55:14 -0400 (EDT)
X-eGroups-Return: sentto-7527208-3705-1053661980-lfl=intrex.net@returns.groups.yahoo.com
Received: from [66.218.67.200] by n39.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 May 2003 03:53:00 -0000
X-Sender: compostea@yahoo.com
X-Apparently-To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Received: (qmail 90547 invoked from network); 23 May 2003 03:52:59 -0000
Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216)
  by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 May 2003 03:52:59 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.76)
  by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 May 2003 03:52:59 -0000
Received: from [66.218.67.183] by n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 May 2003 03:52:59 -0000
To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Message-ID: <bak5uq+c450@eGroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <bah2lg+larf@eGroups.com>
User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82
X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster
From: "Terence Dodge" <compostea@yahoo.com>
X-Originating-IP: 216.99.216.225
X-Yahoo-Profile: compostea
MIME-Version: 1.0
Mailing-List: list compost_tea@yahoogroups.com; contact compost_tea-owner@yahoogroups.com
Delivered-To: mailing list compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Precedence: bulk
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:compost_tea-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 03:52:58 -0000
Subject: [compost_tea] Re: plants that attract/support microbes?
Reply-To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Spam-itxsa: -28.4
X-Note: Total weight is 1. NOABUSE
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347347762

--- In compost_tea@yahoogroups.com, "jery_morgan" <jery_morgan@h...> wrote:
> I think i heard the soil under banannas and bamboo are rich in 
> beneficial soil life.  I think one probably banannas high in bact. 
> and probably the bamboo high in fungi.  does that sound right? 
 
Read a note in a bamboo publication that the same species of bamboo in two different but close location one near a stream the other not, had I recollect a bacterial dominance near the stream but somewhat more fungal in the grove away from the stream. Bamboo is a grass and grasses tend to be bacterial"but" depending on the soil (clay, sand, loam mix) a fungal bacterial blend is probably a good guess. Bananas well ask Dr. I, she has worked with banana growers in Australia.


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/uetFAA/0PSxlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
compost_tea-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 




From - Fri May 23 14:39:44 2003
X-UIDL: 347347781
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A7E259A00C4; Fri, 23 May 2003 12:10:10 -0400
Received: by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix, from userid 1001)
	id 53A72B4A26; Fri, 23 May 2003 12:11:50 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.76])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 1E508B4806
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Fri, 23 May 2003 12:11:49 -0400 (EDT)
X-eGroups-Return: sentto-7527208-3710-1053706205-lfl=intrex.net@returns.groups.yahoo.com
Received: from [66.218.66.95] by n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 May 2003 16:10:05 -0000
X-Sender: Soilfoodweb@aol.com
X-Apparently-To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Received: (qmail 95863 invoked from network); 23 May 2003 16:10:03 -0000
Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217)
  by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 May 2003 16:10:03 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r07.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.103)
  by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 May 2003 16:10:02 -0000
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com
	by imo-r07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36.3.) id r.1a7.14a8c961 (3964)
	 for <compost_tea@yahoogroups.com>; Fri, 23 May 2003 12:09:42 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <1a7.14a8c961.2bffa1c4@aol.com>
To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10503
From: soilfoodweb@aol.com
X-Yahoo-Profile: soilfoodweb
MIME-Version: 1.0
Mailing-List: list compost_tea@yahoogroups.com; contact compost_tea-owner@yahoogroups.com
Delivered-To: mailing list compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Precedence: bulk
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:compost_tea-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 12:09:40 EDT
Subject: Re: [compost_tea] Re: plants that attract/support microbes?
Reply-To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="part1_1a7.14a8c961.2bffa1c4_boundary"
X-Spam-itxsa: -1
X-Note: Total weight is 1. NOABUSE
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347347781

--part1_1a7.14a8c961.2bffa1c4_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Soil under any tree SHOULD be rich in microbial life.  

But often, it is NOT.  Why?  The chemicals we have been pouring on the soil.  
Different "-icides" and salts, otherwise called fertilizers.  There is 
benefit in a fertilizer, true, but potentially a great deal of harm.  Concentration 
is the key factor there.  

If bananas are healthy, they tend to be in the slightly bacterial to slightly 
fungal balance of fungi to bacteria.  Actually the best banana I know (Ono 
Farms on Maui) has soil on the fungal side.  Not hugely fungal, but on the 
fungal side.  

Lactic acid bacteria are not really conducive to growth of fungi, at least 
what I've seen.  Making compost with fermentative bacteria TO START might 
prevent the putrefactive loss of N, S and P through volatilization, buut once the 
hot phase of the composting is over, then pushing the right fungi is important.  


But, yes, indigenous fungal species.  Indigenous fermentative species as 
well.  Buying EM or another bacterial inoculum might get things started in the 
right direction, but then you want to start saving and developing your own 
inoculum with time.  That's the best way to get the species adapted to your local 
conditions.  

Get the "good-guy " fungi from soil under trees that are HEALTHY.  Deep 
roots, going deep into the soil, not roots hampered by compaction, anaerobic 
conditions, and running along the surface of the soil. 

Elaine
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
www.soilfoodweb.com
SFI Oregon, USA
SFI Australia
SFI New York
SFI Europe
SFI New Zealand

"Hope is not a feeling. It is not the belief that things will turn out well, 
but the conviction that what we are doing makes sense, no matter how things 
turn out."   --  Vaclav Havel, former President of the Czech Republic


--part1_1a7.14a8c961.2bffa1c4_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>

<FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">Soil under any tree SHOULD be rich in microbial life.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
But often, it is NOT.&nbsp; Why?&nbsp; The chemicals we have been pouring on the soil.&nbsp; Different "-icides" and salts, otherwise called fertilizers.&nbsp; There is benefit in a fertilizer, true, but potentially a great deal of harm.&nbsp; Concentration is the key factor there.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
If bananas are healthy, they tend to be in the slightly bacterial to slightly fungal balance of fungi to bacteria.&nbsp; Actually the best banana I know (Ono Farms on Maui) has soil on the fungal side.&nbsp; Not hugely fungal, but on the fungal side.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Lactic acid bacteria are not really conducive to growth of fungi, at least what I've seen.&nbsp; Making compost with fermentative bacteria TO START might prevent the putrefactive loss of N, S and P through volatilization, buut once the hot phase of the composting is over, then pushing the right fungi is important.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
But, yes, indigenous fungal species.&nbsp; Indigenous fermentative species as well.&nbsp; Buying EM or another bacterial inoculum might get things started in the right direction, but then you want to start saving and developing your own inoculum with time.&nbsp; That's the best way to get the species adapted to your local conditions.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Get the "good-guy " fungi from soil under trees that are HEALTHY.&nbsp; Deep roots, going deep into the soil, not roots hampered by compaction, anaerobic conditions, and running along the surface of the soil. <BR>
<BR>
Elaine<BR>
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.<BR>
www.soilfoodweb.com<BR>
SFI Oregon, USA<BR>
SFI Australia<BR>
SFI New York<BR>
SFI Europe<BR>
SFI New Zealand<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">"Hope is not a feeling. It is not the belief that things will turn out well, but the conviction that what we are doing makes sense, no matter how things turn out."&nbsp;&nbsp; --&nbsp; Vaclav Havel, former President of the Czech Republic<BR>
<BR>
</FONT>
<br>

<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->

<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC>
<td align=center><font size="-1" color=#003399><b>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor</b></font></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFFF>
<td align=center width=470><a href="http://rd.yahoo.com/M=249982.3179269.4495679.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1707418612:HM/A=1524963/R=0/*http://hits.411web.com/cgi-bin/autoredir?camp=556&lineid=3179269&prop=egroupweb&pos=HM"><img src="http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/sl/sleepangel/sleep_300x250.gif" alt="" width="300" height="250" border="0"></a></td>
</tr>
<tr><td><img alt="" width=1 height=1 src="http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=249982.3179269.4495679.1261774/D=egroupmail/S=:HM/A=1524963/rand=501011187"></td></tr>
</table>

<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->


<br>
<tt>
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<BR>
compost_tea-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<BR>
<BR>
</tt>
<br>

<br>
<tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms of Service</a>.</tt>
</br>

</HTML>
--part1_1a7.14a8c961.2bffa1c4_boundary--



From - Fri May 23 00:54:34 2003
X-UIDL: 347347763
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A42BBE4C009E; Fri, 23 May 2003 00:31:39 -0400
Received: by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix, from userid 1001)
	id 40D28B496B; Fri, 23 May 2003 00:33:19 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.70])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id D2C12B4911
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Fri, 23 May 2003 00:33:17 -0400 (EDT)
X-eGroups-Return: sentto-7527208-3706-1053664296-lfl=intrex.net@returns.groups.yahoo.com
Received: from [66.218.67.196] by n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 May 2003 04:31:36 -0000
X-Sender: lfl@intrex.net
X-Apparently-To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Received: (qmail 35411 invoked from network); 23 May 2003 04:31:34 -0000
Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216)
  by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 May 2003 04:31:34 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.intrex.net) (209.42.192.250)
  by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 May 2003 04:31:34 -0000
Received: from intrex.net [209.42.230.8] by smtp.intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.13) id A42B12FB00BC; Fri, 23 May 2003 00:31:39 -0400
Message-ID: <3ECDD171.70304@intrex.net>
Organization: http://market-farming.com  --  Venaura Farm
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
References: <bak5uq+c450@eGroups.com>
X-Declude-Sender: lfl@intrex.net [209.42.230.8]
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
X-Yahoo-Profile: rpshovel
MIME-Version: 1.0
Mailing-List: list compost_tea@yahoogroups.com; contact compost_tea-owner@yahoogroups.com
Delivered-To: mailing list compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Precedence: bulk
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:compost_tea-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 00:44:49 -0700
Subject: Re: [compost_tea] Re: plants that attract/support microbes?
Reply-To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Spam-itxsa: -26.9
X-Note: Total weight is 1. NOABUSE
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347347763

Terence Dodge wrote:
> --- In compost_tea@yahoogroups.com, "jery_morgan" <jery_morgan@h...> wrote:
> 
>>I think i heard the soil under banannas and bamboo are rich in 
>>beneficial soil life.  I think one probably banannas high in bact. 
>>and probably the bamboo high in fungi.  does that sound right? 
> 
>  
> Read a note in a bamboo publication that the same species of bamboo in two different but close location one near a stream the other not, 
>had I recollect a bacterial dominance near the stream but somewhat more fungal in the grove away from the stream. 
>Bamboo is a grass and grasses tend to be bacterial"but" depending on the soil (clay, sand, loam mix) a fungal bacterial blend is 
>probably a good guess. Bananas well ask Dr. I, she has worked with banana growers in Australia.

Here's more about that from the sanet-mg list:
[a reply to Jeff Lowenfels]
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: fungal vs bacterial/ till no? No till?
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 14:13:58 +0000
From: gil carandang <gil_carandang@HOTMAIL.COM>
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU

jeff,
thanks for the information.  it is really of great help.  currently, we do a
lot of experimentations and observations on several vegetable families.  we
do our own microbial culture using lacto bacilli, forest and bamboo
microorganism.  apparently, the forest ones are much fungal and the bamboo
much bacterial.  lactic acid bacteria however is our main workhorse in
composting, digestion and arresting foul odors.  we do a lot of anaerobic
fermentation.  in fact, we ferment our materials first before we really
compost them.  we make special designer compost that includes several
diversed materials of which we inoculate with beneficial indigenous
microorganisms and add lots of bionutrients we normally extract from herbs.
our designer compost we add rice bran and rice hull charcoal aside from
microbes and bionutrients.  this compost is what we will start using for our
compost teas.  anaerobic to aerobic? well, let's see.
again, thanks. gil



[a reply to Elaine Ingham]
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: fungal vs bacterial/ till no? No till?
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 03:12:58 +0000
From: gil carandang <gil_carandang@HOTMAIL.COM>
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU

dear elaine,
i appreciate greatly your response.  in fact, you are right.  there's a
difference between the putrefactive and fermentative processes.
putrefactive anaerobic results in real foul stinky smells like sewage.
fermentative has much sour but not rotten smell.  there are definite
subtleties on the smells and experience is our best teacher.  some people
like the EM people also test the pH.

anyway, you definitely can use the yogurt.  i however, make our own lacto
bacilli in a very simple way.  we do a two stage process.  we first trap
several microbes to its food like carbohydrate and then saturate them (on
the second stage) with milk.  in this manner, we eliminate the other
microbes and keep a pure lacto bacilli culture.  we then add another kind of
food to keep them alive rather than the customary refrigeration.  in the
countryside, at least in the philippines, we don't have refrigeration.  it
is very cheap to produce that it is almost unbelievable.  i have a booklet
on this process that i distributed at the recent ecofarm conference.  anyone
who will be interested would simply need to e-mail me at:
gil_carandang@hotmail.com.
i was also told that lacto bacilli is both anaerobic and aerobic.  i guess
it is more anaerobic or may we call facultative.  lacto bacilli is really a
microbial workhorse.  it is normally associated with the word probiotics.
and in organic agriculture, especially livestock, they use a lot of these
and combined with immune booster herbs like aloe vera. again, most of highly
nutritious foods are fermented foods.  and lots of them are lactic acid
fermented.  in the same token, the microorganisms that we get from the
forest are assumed by natural farmers to be beneficial (as you observe where
you get them) and maybe more fungal in association.  and the bamboo
microorganism we use can be said to be more bacterial for its roots exudates
attract a lot of beneficial bacteria.  as natural farmers, do i still need
tests and counts?  probably yes.  although most practical farmers will not
have to.  through our experimentations and observations, we should be able
to "see".  we natural farmers always believe that if we open our eyes, ears,
heart and being to nature, nature will start to unfold its mysteries to us.
the ultimate answer to all our agricultural questions lie not on man but on
nature herself.  as long as we align our methods to the workings of nature,
we should be in good position. it is our holistic approach and broader
realization and appreciation of nature that will guide us and not
discriminating and dichotomized mindsets of the reductionist science.

[...]

again, thanks.
gil carandang
herbana farms
philippines

<><><>
-- 
L.F.London
lfl@intrex.net
http://market-farming.com
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech



------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/uetFAA/0PSxlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
compost_tea-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 




From - Fri May 23 14:39:44 2003
X-UIDL: 347347781
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A7E259A00C4; Fri, 23 May 2003 12:10:10 -0400
Received: by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix, from userid 1001)
	id 53A72B4A26; Fri, 23 May 2003 12:11:50 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.76])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 1E508B4806
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Fri, 23 May 2003 12:11:49 -0400 (EDT)
X-eGroups-Return: sentto-7527208-3710-1053706205-lfl=intrex.net@returns.groups.yahoo.com
Received: from [66.218.66.95] by n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 May 2003 16:10:05 -0000
X-Sender: Soilfoodweb@aol.com
X-Apparently-To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Received: (qmail 95863 invoked from network); 23 May 2003 16:10:03 -0000
Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217)
  by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 May 2003 16:10:03 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r07.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.103)
  by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 May 2003 16:10:02 -0000
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com
	by imo-r07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36.3.) id r.1a7.14a8c961 (3964)
	 for <compost_tea@yahoogroups.com>; Fri, 23 May 2003 12:09:42 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <1a7.14a8c961.2bffa1c4@aol.com>
To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10503
From: soilfoodweb@aol.com
X-Yahoo-Profile: soilfoodweb
MIME-Version: 1.0
Mailing-List: list compost_tea@yahoogroups.com; contact compost_tea-owner@yahoogroups.com
Delivered-To: mailing list compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Precedence: bulk
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:compost_tea-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 12:09:40 EDT
Subject: Re: [compost_tea] Re: plants that attract/support microbes?
Reply-To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="part1_1a7.14a8c961.2bffa1c4_boundary"
X-Spam-itxsa: -1
X-Note: Total weight is 1. NOABUSE
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347347781

--part1_1a7.14a8c961.2bffa1c4_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Soil under any tree SHOULD be rich in microbial life.  

But often, it is NOT.  Why?  The chemicals we have been pouring on the soil.  
Different "-icides" and salts, otherwise called fertilizers.  There is 
benefit in a fertilizer, true, but potentially a great deal of harm.  Concentration 
is the key factor there.  

If bananas are healthy, they tend to be in the slightly bacterial to slightly 
fungal balance of fungi to bacteria.  Actually the best banana I know (Ono 
Farms on Maui) has soil on the fungal side.  Not hugely fungal, but on the 
fungal side.  

Lactic acid bacteria are not really conducive to growth of fungi, at least 
what I've seen.  Making compost with fermentative bacteria TO START might 
prevent the putrefactive loss of N, S and P through volatilization, buut once the 
hot phase of the composting is over, then pushing the right fungi is important.  


But, yes, indigenous fungal species.  Indigenous fermentative species as 
well.  Buying EM or another bacterial inoculum might get things started in the 
right direction, but then you want to start saving and developing your own 
inoculum with time.  That's the best way to get the species adapted to your local 
conditions.  

Get the "good-guy " fungi from soil under trees that are HEALTHY.  Deep 
roots, going deep into the soil, not roots hampered by compaction, anaerobic 
conditions, and running along the surface of the soil. 

Elaine
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
www.soilfoodweb.com
SFI Oregon, USA
SFI Australia
SFI New York
SFI Europe
SFI New Zealand

"Hope is not a feeling. It is not the belief that things will turn out well, 
but the conviction that what we are doing makes sense, no matter how things 
turn out."   --  Vaclav Havel, former President of the Czech Republic


--part1_1a7.14a8c961.2bffa1c4_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>

<FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">Soil under any tree SHOULD be rich in microbial life.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
But often, it is NOT.&nbsp; Why?&nbsp; The chemicals we have been pouring on the soil.&nbsp; Different "-icides" and salts, otherwise called fertilizers.&nbsp; There is benefit in a fertilizer, true, but potentially a great deal of harm.&nbsp; Concentration is the key factor there.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
If bananas are healthy, they tend to be in the slightly bacterial to slightly fungal balance of fungi to bacteria.&nbsp; Actually the best banana I know (Ono Farms on Maui) has soil on the fungal side.&nbsp; Not hugely fungal, but on the fungal side.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Lactic acid bacteria are not really conducive to growth of fungi, at least what I've seen.&nbsp; Making compost with fermentative bacteria TO START might prevent the putrefactive loss of N, S and P through volatilization, buut once the hot phase of the composting is over, then pushing the right fungi is important.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
But, yes, indigenous fungal species.&nbsp; Indigenous fermentative species as well.&nbsp; Buying EM or another bacterial inoculum might get things started in the right direction, but then you want to start saving and developing your own inoculum with time.&nbsp; That's the best way to get the species adapted to your local conditions.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Get the "good-guy " fungi from soil under trees that are HEALTHY.&nbsp; Deep roots, going deep into the soil, not roots hampered by compaction, anaerobic conditions, and running along the surface of the soil. <BR>
<BR>
Elaine<BR>
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.<BR>
www.soilfoodweb.com<BR>
SFI Oregon, USA<BR>
SFI Australia<BR>
SFI New York<BR>
SFI Europe<BR>
SFI New Zealand<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">"Hope is not a feeling. It is not the belief that things will turn out well, but the conviction that what we are doing makes sense, no matter how things turn out."&nbsp;&nbsp; --&nbsp; Vaclav Havel, former President of the Czech Republic<BR>
<BR>
</FONT>
<br>

<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->

<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC>
<td align=center><font size="-1" color=#003399><b>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor</b></font></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFFF>
<td align=center width=470><a href="http://rd.yahoo.com/M=249982.3179269.4495679.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1707418612:HM/A=1524963/R=0/*http://hits.411web.com/cgi-bin/autoredir?camp=556&lineid=3179269&prop=egroupweb&pos=HM"><img src="http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/sl/sleepangel/sleep_300x250.gif" alt="" width="300" height="250" border="0"></a></td>
</tr>
<tr><td><img alt="" width=1 height=1 src="http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=249982.3179269.4495679.1261774/D=egroupmail/S=:HM/A=1524963/rand=501011187"></td></tr>
</table>

<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->


<br>
<tt>
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<BR>
compost_tea-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<BR>
<BR>
</tt>
<br>

<br>
<tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms of Service</a>.</tt>
</br>

</HTML>
--part1_1a7.14a8c961.2bffa1c4_boundary--



From - Sun May 25 21:45:41 2003
X-UIDL: 347347849
X-Mozilla-Status: 0010
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A7B0FA0400BC; Sun, 25 May 2003 14:13:04 -0400
Received: by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix, from userid 1004)
	id 919A91EC331; Sun, 25 May 2003 14:13:06 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (lists.sare.org [128.227.242.235])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA1071EC524
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Sun, 25 May 2003 14:13:05 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0001BBFF@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; 25 May 2003 14:13:14 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 19074 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sun, 25 May 2003 14:13:14 -0400
Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT
          v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0001BBFE@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; 25 May 2003
          14:13:14 -0400
Received: from sdn-ap-019neomahp0425.dialsprint.net ([63.191.97.171]
          helo=ncat.org) by smtp6.mindspring.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id
          19JzzL-0001Z4-00; Sun, 25 May 2003 14:12:55 -0400
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.9.4)
            Gecko/20011128 Netscape6/6.2.1 (CPQCA2C02)
X-Accept-Language: en-us
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030520110810.0269f250@mail.ofrf.org>
            <001201c321b8$80240850$01ae1e43@stumpy>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="------------050302020506010506060303"
Message-ID: <3ED107AA.9090501@ncat.org>
Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 13:12:58 -0500
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: Steve Diver <steved@NCAT.ORG>
Subject: Re: strange brew
Comments: To: elijah smith <elijahs@earthlink.net>
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Spam-itxsa: -0.8
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347347849

--------------050302020506010506060303
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

It sounds like a nature farming recipe.  These include all kinds
of on-farm biofertilizers and fermented extracts, made from
local biomass sources and biological conversion processes.

The red tinge may be a type of photosynthetic bacteria.

EM (Effective Microorganism), one of the nature farming
microbial tools, has these purple photosynthetic Rhodobacters,
and an EM-treated hog-lagoon turned red is a sign of bioconversion.

See:

Enrichment & Isolation of Purple Non-Sulfur Photosynthetic Bacteria
http://www.splammo.net/bact102/102pnsb.html

Sudden Popularity of Soil Based Organisms (SBOs) as Probiotics
In:
http://www.antioxbrew.com/

What other details and background can you share, Elijah?

Regards,

Steve Diver
ATTRA


elijah smith wrote:

>
>
> I need help identifying what sort of anaerobic bacteria we've grown.
> Someone gave us a recipe for a sort of tea which is supposed to
> "increase the amount of sunlight absorbed" when applied as a foliar
> spray.  The recipe goes like this:
>
>
>
> soak a pile of fish scales in water.  Strain the water through red
> cinder (we have a lot of this in Hawaii...).  Let the water sit in a
> full sealed glass jar in the sun.
>
>
>
> Well, we did it, and the glass jar sat and say for months and then all
> of a sudden turned bright red - which was what was supposed to
> happen... we can make more of it by just putting mixing it with clean
> water and adding it to more jars; each in turn will turn red after a
> bit.
>
>
>
> But what is it?  Anyone ever heard of this stuff?  Does it really
> increase sunlight absorption?  I though maybe 'cuz it was so red, it
> might somehow let the plant intake a different part of the spectrum -
> but I'm no scientist, I'm just guessing.
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
>     Elijah
>
>
>


--------------050302020506010506060303
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<html>
<head>
</head>
<body>
It sounds like a nature farming recipe. &nbsp;These include all kinds<br>
of on-farm biofertilizers and fermented extracts, made from<br>
local biomass sources and biological conversion processes. &nbsp; &nbsp; <br>
<br>
The red tinge may be a type of photosynthetic bacteria. &nbsp;<br>
<br>
EM (Effective Microorganism), one of the nature farming<br>
microbial tools, has these purple photosynthetic Rhodobacters, <br>
and an EM-treated hog-lagoon turned red is a sign of bioconversion. &nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
See:<br>
<br>
Enrichment &amp; Isolation of Purple Non-Sulfur Photosynthetic Bacteria<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.splammo.net/bact102/102pnsb.html">http://www.splammo.net/bact102/102pnsb.html</a><br>
<br>
Sudden Popularity of Soil Based Organisms (SBOs) as Probiotics&nbsp; <br>
In:<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.antioxbrew.com/">http://www.antioxbrew.com/</a><br>
<br>
What other details and background can you share, Elijah? <br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Steve Diver<br>
ATTRA <br>
<br>
<br>
elijah smith wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:001201c321b8$80240850$01ae1e43@stumpy">
  <meta content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1170" name="GENERATOR">
  <style></style>
  <div>&nbsp;</div>
  <div><font face="Arial" size="2">I need help identifying what sort of anaerobic
 bacteria we've grown.&nbsp; Someone&nbsp;gave us a recipe for a sort of tea  which
is supposed to "increase the amount of sunlight absorbed" when applied as
 a foliar spray.&nbsp; The recipe goes like this:</font></div>
  <div>&nbsp;</div>
  <div><font face="Arial" size="2">soak a pile of fish scales in water.&nbsp;
Strain  the water through red cinder (we have a lot of this in Hawaii...).&nbsp;
Let the  water sit in a full sealed glass jar in the sun.</font></div>
  <div>&nbsp;</div>
  <div><font face="Arial" size="2">Well, we did it, and the glass jar sat
and say for  months and then all of a sudden turned bright red - which was
what was supposed  to happen... we can make more of it by just putting mixing
it with clean water  and adding it to more jars; each in turn will turn red
after a bit.&nbsp;  </font></div>
  <div>&nbsp;</div>
  <div><font face="Arial" size="2">But what is it?&nbsp; Anyone ever heard of
this  stuff?&nbsp; Does it really increase sunlight absorption?&nbsp; I though maybe
 'cuz it was so red, it might somehow let the plant intake a different part
of  the spectrum - but I'm no scientist, I'm just guessing.&nbsp; </font></div>
  <div>&nbsp;</div>
  <div><font face="Arial" size="2">Thanks!</font></div>
  <div><font face="Arial" size="2">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Elijah</font></div>
  <div>&nbsp;</div>
  </blockquote>
  <br>
  </body>
  </html>

--------------050302020506010506060303--


From - Sun May 25 21:45:41 2003
X-UIDL: 347347849
X-Mozilla-Status: 0010
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A7B0FA0400BC; Sun, 25 May 2003 14:13:04 -0400
Received: by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix, from userid 1004)
	id 919A91EC331; Sun, 25 May 2003 14:13:06 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (lists.sare.org [128.227.242.235])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA1071EC524
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Sun, 25 May 2003 14:13:05 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0001BBFF@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; 25 May 2003 14:13:14 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 19074 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sun, 25 May 2003 14:13:14 -0400
Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT
          v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0001BBFE@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; 25 May 2003
          14:13:14 -0400
Received: from sdn-ap-019neomahp0425.dialsprint.net ([63.191.97.171]
          helo=ncat.org) by smtp6.mindspring.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id
          19JzzL-0001Z4-00; Sun, 25 May 2003 14:12:55 -0400
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.9.4)
            Gecko/20011128 Netscape6/6.2.1 (CPQCA2C02)
X-Accept-Language: en-us
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030520110810.0269f250@mail.ofrf.org>
            <001201c321b8$80240850$01ae1e43@stumpy>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="------------050302020506010506060303"
Message-ID: <3ED107AA.9090501@ncat.org>
Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 13:12:58 -0500
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: Steve Diver <steved@NCAT.ORG>
Subject: Re: strange brew
Comments: To: elijah smith <elijahs@earthlink.net>
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Spam-itxsa: -0.8
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347347849

--------------050302020506010506060303
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

It sounds like a nature farming recipe.  These include all kinds
of on-farm biofertilizers and fermented extracts, made from
local biomass sources and biological conversion processes.

The red tinge may be a type of photosynthetic bacteria.

EM (Effective Microorganism), one of the nature farming
microbial tools, has these purple photosynthetic Rhodobacters,
and an EM-treated hog-lagoon turned red is a sign of bioconversion.

See:

Enrichment & Isolation of Purple Non-Sulfur Photosynthetic Bacteria
http://www.splammo.net/bact102/102pnsb.html

Sudden Popularity of Soil Based Organisms (SBOs) as Probiotics
In:
http://www.antioxbrew.com/

What other details and background can you share, Elijah?

Regards,

Steve Diver
ATTRA


elijah smith wrote:

>
>
> I need help identifying what sort of anaerobic bacteria we've grown.
> Someone gave us a recipe for a sort of tea which is supposed to
> "increase the amount of sunlight absorbed" when applied as a foliar
> spray.  The recipe goes like this:
>
>
>
> soak a pile of fish scales in water.  Strain the water through red
> cinder (we have a lot of this in Hawaii...).  Let the water sit in a
> full sealed glass jar in the sun.
>
>
>
> Well, we did it, and the glass jar sat and say for months and then all
> of a sudden turned bright red - which was what was supposed to
> happen... we can make more of it by just putting mixing it with clean
> water and adding it to more jars; each in turn will turn red after a
> bit.
>
>
>
> But what is it?  Anyone ever heard of this stuff?  Does it really
> increase sunlight absorption?  I though maybe 'cuz it was so red, it
> might somehow let the plant intake a different part of the spectrum -
> but I'm no scientist, I'm just guessing.
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
>     Elijah
>
>
>


--------------050302020506010506060303
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<html>
<head>
</head>
<body>
It sounds like a nature farming recipe. &nbsp;These include all kinds<br>
of on-farm biofertilizers and fermented extracts, made from<br>
local biomass sources and biological conversion processes. &nbsp; &nbsp; <br>
<br>
The red tinge may be a type of photosynthetic bacteria. &nbsp;<br>
<br>
EM (Effective Microorganism), one of the nature farming<br>
microbial tools, has these purple photosynthetic Rhodobacters, <br>
and an EM-treated hog-lagoon turned red is a sign of bioconversion. &nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
See:<br>
<br>
Enrichment &amp; Isolation of Purple Non-Sulfur Photosynthetic Bacteria<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.splammo.net/bact102/102pnsb.html">http://www.splammo.net/bact102/102pnsb.html</a><br>
<br>
Sudden Popularity of Soil Based Organisms (SBOs) as Probiotics&nbsp; <br>
In:<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.antioxbrew.com/">http://www.antioxbrew.com/</a><br>
<br>
What other details and background can you share, Elijah? <br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Steve Diver<br>
ATTRA <br>
<br>
<br>
elijah smith wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:001201c321b8$80240850$01ae1e43@stumpy">
  <meta content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1170" name="GENERATOR">
  <style></style>
  <div>&nbsp;</div>
  <div><font face="Arial" size="2">I need help identifying what sort of anaerobic
 bacteria we've grown.&nbsp; Someone&nbsp;gave us a recipe for a sort of tea  which
is supposed to "increase the amount of sunlight absorbed" when applied as
 a foliar spray.&nbsp; The recipe goes like this:</font></div>
  <div>&nbsp;</div>
  <div><font face="Arial" size="2">soak a pile of fish scales in water.&nbsp;
Strain  the water through red cinder (we have a lot of this in Hawaii...).&nbsp;
Let the  water sit in a full sealed glass jar in the sun.</font></div>
  <div>&nbsp;</div>
  <div><font face="Arial" size="2">Well, we did it, and the glass jar sat
and say for  months and then all of a sudden turned bright red - which was
what was supposed  to happen... we can make more of it by just putting mixing
it with clean water  and adding it to more jars; each in turn will turn red
after a bit.&nbsp;  </font></div>
  <div>&nbsp;</div>
  <div><font face="Arial" size="2">But what is it?&nbsp; Anyone ever heard of
this  stuff?&nbsp; Does it really increase sunlight absorption?&nbsp; I though maybe
 'cuz it was so red, it might somehow let the plant intake a different part
of  the spectrum - but I'm no scientist, I'm just guessing.&nbsp; </font></div>
  <div>&nbsp;</div>
  <div><font face="Arial" size="2">Thanks!</font></div>
  <div><font face="Arial" size="2">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Elijah</font></div>
  <div>&nbsp;</div>
  </blockquote>
  <br>
  </body>
  </html>

--------------050302020506010506060303--


From - Thu May 29 00:45:45 2003
X-UIDL: 347348045
X-Mozilla-Status: 1001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A2C59A1B026C; Wed, 28 May 2003 23:47:17 -0400
Received: by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix, from userid 1004)
	id C1ED81EC4B9; Wed, 28 May 2003 23:47:37 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F5911EC43F
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Wed, 28 May 2003 23:47:37 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0001C441@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Wed, 28 May 2003 23:47:31 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 21510 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Wed, 28 May 2003 23:47:31 -0400
Received: from mail.ncat.org (du132.194.onewest.net) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu
          (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id
          <0.0001C440@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Wed, 28 May 2003 23:47:30 -0400
Received: from ncat.org ([130.184.56.238]) (authenticated) by mail.ncat.org
          (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h4T3lEK24224 for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Wed, 28 May 2003 21:47:14 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <3ED58470.9ADB0E6B@ncat.org>
Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 22:54:24 -0500
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: Steve Diver <steved@NCAT.ORG>
Subject: IPM - Picturing Impact method + bio-lahang compost decomposer
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Spam-itxsa: 0
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347348045

Here are some worthwhile resources for your sustainable
toolbox on:

*Picturing Impact method for farmer study groups
*IPM in Indonesia
*Conservation of natural enemies
*Insect Zoo
*Rice ecosystem IPM
*IPM as an entry point for Sustainable Livelihoods
*Ecological Foundations to Tropical Rice IPM
*Living Soils
*Tea IPM Ecological Guide

The picturing impact method and the on-farm recipe to
make bio-lahang as a compost decomposer led me to
these resources.

The first item is an article on Farmer Study Groups and
Community IPM in Indonesia, from the current issue
of LEISA, the magazine on low-external input
and sustainable agriculture.

A farmer study technique is to loan out cameras so
participants take pictures of their fields and farming
methods, then come back and label the pictures and
share experiences and reflect on the situation under
study.

Picturing Impact!
by John Pontius
LEISA / ILEIA | Vol. 19, No. 1 | March 2003
"Learning with Farmer Field Schools" issue
http://www.ileia.org//2/19-1/18_21.PDF

            ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The full report can be viewed online in PDF and DOC:

Picturing Impact:  Participatory Evaluation of Community IPM
in Three West Java Villages
Dr. John C. Pontius
FAO Regional Community IPM Program
International Learning Workshop on Farmer Field
Schools (FFS), October 2002, Yogyakarta, Indonesia
http://www.eseap.cipotato.org/upward/Events/FFS-Workshop-Yogya2002/02-Pontius.pdf

        45-page PDF

Picturing Impact:  Participatory Evaluation of Community IPM
in Three West Java Villages
http://www.communityipm.Org/docs/Picturing%20Impact/Picturing%20Impact%20top%20page.html

Especially see:

Chapter 4. Picturing Impact - Main Report
        40-page DOC version

"The goal of this study was to learn about the impact of
Community IPM on poverty in farming communities. The study
was carried out by farmers themselves, who took photographs
of what they considered to be indicators of impact. The data
consists of 84 photographs with captions."

The entries on indigenous microbe preparation for "compost
decomposers" and plant extracts for pest control remind me
of on-farm recipes in nature farming.

Excerpts:

"The photograph is of a mixture of goat manure, leaves, and
'biolahang' (a decomposer that we make from 'lahang' or sugar
palm sap, slices of banana tree trunks, and water).  The compost
is ripening.  Good quality compost needs to ripen for anywhere
from a week to 10 days.  Biolahang is mixture that we make
to speed the ripening process.  There are many similar commercial
products, but having tested them all against our decomposer, we
know that ours is as good as any." - Yakub Syah | page 23

"Our decomposer is made from 'lahang' (sugar palm sap), slices
of banana tree trunks, and water.  Tirta Bumi tested the
decomposer against a product called EMBIO, which is quite
expensive.  Bio-lahang is the equal of EMBIO.  Yakub Syah |
page 24

"Spider Gate.  One of our efforts is to spread the word about IPM.
We built this gate, which we decorated with pictures of spiders, a
symbol of the need to conserve natural enemies.  You could say
that the gate has also become a symbol for our village, which we
believe, has become an IPM village.  Jarot Indraloka | page 25

"IPM activities have helped farmers to become scientists.  This
photo is of 'bio-lahang', the decomposer that we created and tested.
It's cheap and performs as well as EM4 and EMBIO, which are
both very expensive commercial products.  If we can make it cheap,
why should we buy something expensive?  Aos Rosidin | page 30"

            ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Other resources at this IPM site:

Community Integrated Pest Management
/ formerly FAO Programme for Community IPM in Asia
http://www.CommunityIPM.org

.From Farmer Field Schools to Community IPM:
Ten Years of IPM Training in Asia
Editors: John Pontius, Russ Dilts, Andrew Bartlett
April 2001
http://www.communityipm.Org/docs/10%20Years%20of%20IPM/10Years-Main.htm

A detailed description of the development of Farmer Field
Schools, including historical context, educational foundations,
ecological principles and lessons learned.

The document consists of 145 pages with many photographs,
boxes and diagrams. To make it easier to download, the
document has been split into 8 chapters

Especially see:

Chapter 3: The IPM Farmer Field School

Chapter 6: Ecological Principles Underlying the FFS
conservation of beneficial insects, spiders, and snakes

            ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Toxic Trail - A BBC documentary in the 'Earth Report' series
http://www.communityipm.Org/ToxicTrail.htm

            ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Tea IPM Ecological Guide
Michael R. Zeiss, Koen den Braber
Translated by Tran Thanh Nam
Published by CIDSE, April 2001
http://www.communityipm.Org/docs/Tea_Eco-Guide/Tea_Eco-Guide.html

Especially see:

Chapter Three: The Living Soil

            ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Living Soils: Training Exercises for Integrated Soils Management
William Settle, 2000
http://www.communityipm.Org/docs/Living%20Soils/living%20soils.html
        101-pages, tables, diagrams, 31 excercises

            ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Field Guide on Peanuts
http://www.communityipm.Org/docs/PeanutIPMguide.zip

See:

Chapter 4, Insect Zoo

            ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Settle, W.H. et al. 1996. Managing Tropical Rice Pests
Through Conservation of Generalist Natural Enemies and
Alternative Prey. Ecology, 77(7): 1975-1988
http://www.communityipm.Org/docs/Ecol_settle.pdf
        15-page PDF, classic article

Mangan, J., and M.S.Mangan 1998. A comparison of two IPM
training strategies in China: the importance of concepts or the
rice ecosystem for sustainable insect pest management.
Agriculture and Human Values 15: 209-221.
http://www.communityipm.Org/docs/China-concepts.doc
        22-page DOC

            ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

IPM as an entry point for Sustainable Livelihoods
http://www.communityipm.Org/Concepts/sustlive01.htm

"never in my wildest dreams did I think that a program about
'bugs' would bring the dawn of democracy and liberation to
Indonesian villages"

            ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Ecological Foundations to Tropical Rice IPM
http://www.communityipm.Org/Concepts/ecology01.html

A practical guide to the ecological dynamics of the irrigated
rice ecosystem, based on the classic paper in Ecology by
William Settle in 1996.

            ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Regards,

Steve Diver
NCAT / ATTRA
===================================================
===================================================


From - Thu Jul 03 12:02:05 2003
X-UIDL: 347350484
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A5E193AA008C; Thu, 03 Jul 2003 07:39:13 -0400
Received: by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix, from userid 1004)
	id DF2F41EC69E; Thu,  3 Jul 2003 07:41:30 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DEAE1EC692
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Thu,  3 Jul 2003 07:41:30 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00020E47@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Thu, 3 Jul 2003 7:39:36 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 21448 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Thu, 3 Jul 2003 07:39:36 -0400
Received: from hotmail.com (bay7-f30.bay7.hotmail.com) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu
          (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id
          <0.00020E46@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Thu, 3 Jul 2003 7:39:36 -0400
Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu,
          3 Jul 2003 04:39:09 -0700
Received: from 203.168.19.58 by by7fd.bay7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 03
          Jul 2003 11:39:09 GMT
X-Originating-IP: [203.168.19.58]
X-Originating-Email: [gil_carandang@hotmail.com]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Jul 2003 11:39:09.0618 (UTC)
                       FILETIME=[B7AF3920:01C34157]
Message-ID: <BAY7-F30YKMDgSYOXs00004a1ef@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 11:39:09 +0000
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: gil carandang <gil_carandang@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Fwd: [SANET-MG] Technology Culture of Indigenous Microorganisms
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Spam-itxsa: -0.3
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-Spam-Prob: 0.014414
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347350484

hi all!

i will be lecturing on the technology culture of beneficial indigenous
microorganisms and bionutrients this july 11  at ISEES univ. of minnesota in
st. paul for the organic aquaculture workshop.  and in august 24, 2003, will
also be doing one at solfest in hopland, california.  ecofarm association of
watsonville, california is hooking me up to conduct seminars and workshops
on the technology while i am in the united states.  i will arrive july 10 at
st. paul and will leave for manila august 28.

i am taking this opportunity to offer this asian natural farming technology
that wiill really empower the american farmers.

if anyone or group that will be interested to take advantage of my presence
in the united states, you can e-mail me.  you can organize an hour lecture
or a whole day hands-on workshop on the said technology.  after st. paul,
minnesota, i intend to visit iowa and philadelphia.  i also have a plan to
visit new mexico.  and most of the time, i will be based in santa cruz,
california.

many thanks folks!
gil carandang
herbana farms
philippines


>From: "gil carandang" <gil_carandang@hotmail.com>
>To: gil_carandang@hotmail.com
>Subject: Fwd: [SANET-MG] Technology Culture of Indigenous Microorganisms
>Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 17:29:19 +0000
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>From: gil carandang <gil_carandang@HOTMAIL.COM>
>>Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
>><SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
>>To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
>>Subject: [SANET-MG] Technology Culture of Indigenous Microorganisms
>>Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 16:20:12 +0000
>>
>>Hi all!
>>Since I mentioned to my e-mail to Dr.. Elaine Ingham about the culture of
>>indigenous microorganisms for agriculture, a lot of people have e-mailed
>>me
>>on the booklet.  I am then posting the details on this booklet:
>>
>>Technology of Culturing Beneficial Indigenous Microorganisms and
>>Bionutrients for use in Agricultural Crops and Livestock
>>
>>Last January 23, 2003 Gil Carandang of Herbana Farms, a leading organic
>>and
>>natural farming advocate from the Philipines and who recently completed
>>Apprenticeship in Ecological Horticulture at the University  of California
>>Santa Cruz, had just conducted a workshop on Indigenous Microorganism:
>>Grow
>>Your Own at the annual Ecological Farming Conference in Asilomar
>>(Monterey,
>>California) on full-packed crowd.
>>
>>Indigenous Microorganisms (IMO):  Grow Your Own
>>The recent interest in building microorganism populations for fertility
>>and
>>pathogen control has given many farmers food for thought.  Compost teas
>>are
>>now becoming extremely high in concentrations of beneficial
>>microorganisms.
>>This interest is not so new in Asian countries, however, where "Nature
>>Farming" and "Effective Microorganisms" or EM Technology has been popular
>>for years.  Buying starter cultures of beneficiaal microorganisms can be
>>expensive for farmers.  Now a relatively new movement is empowering
>>farmers
>>with knowledge about culturing, increasing and applying local or
>>"indigenous" on-farm beneficial microorganisms.  Learn the basic theory
>>and
>>techniques for growing these farming companions to help increase yields
>>and
>>reduce problems.
>>
>>"The best workshop I had in 18 years!"
>>- Jim Nelson
>>  Camp Joy Gardens
>>  Boulder Creek, California
>>
>>Learn to culture Lacto Bacilli, the workhorse of the beneficial indigenous
>>microorganisms.  Lacto Bacilli arrest foul odors and improve digestion,
>>nutrient intake.
>>-Forest microorganism.  Culture diversed, powerful beneficial indigenous
>>microorganisms from the forest and apply them to your garden and farm and
>>improve soil fertility.
>>-Beneficial Indigenous Microorganisms produce enzymes and natural
>>antibiotic
>>that control pathogens like e. coli and salmonella.
>>-Bionutrients.  Fermented plant extracts to improve soil fertilty, control
>>pests and diseases, increase microbial diversity and ecology.
>>
>>Did you know that you can gather plants in your farm and use them as
>>fermented extracts to improve plant growth serving as natural growth
>>promotants?
>>... and many more!
>>
>>The booklet on this amazing natural farming technology is now available.
>>You can organize your own workshop to learn this Asian Natural Farming
>>technology empowering farmers, self-generating their own inputs through
>>the
>>culture of these Beneficial Indigenous Microorganisms and Bionutrients.
>>Gil
>>Carandang can be reached through e-mail: gil_carandang@hotmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>_________________________________________________________________
>>Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
>>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
>

_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail


From - Thu Jul 03 12:02:05 2003
X-UIDL: 347350484
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A5E193AA008C; Thu, 03 Jul 2003 07:39:13 -0400
Received: by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix, from userid 1004)
	id DF2F41EC69E; Thu,  3 Jul 2003 07:41:30 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DEAE1EC692
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Thu,  3 Jul 2003 07:41:30 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00020E47@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Thu, 3 Jul 2003 7:39:36 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 21448 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Thu, 3 Jul 2003 07:39:36 -0400
Received: from hotmail.com (bay7-f30.bay7.hotmail.com) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu
          (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id
          <0.00020E46@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Thu, 3 Jul 2003 7:39:36 -0400
Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu,
          3 Jul 2003 04:39:09 -0700
Received: from 203.168.19.58 by by7fd.bay7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 03
          Jul 2003 11:39:09 GMT
X-Originating-IP: [203.168.19.58]
X-Originating-Email: [gil_carandang@hotmail.com]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Jul 2003 11:39:09.0618 (UTC)
                       FILETIME=[B7AF3920:01C34157]
Message-ID: <BAY7-F30YKMDgSYOXs00004a1ef@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 11:39:09 +0000
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: gil carandang <gil_carandang@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Fwd: [SANET-MG] Technology Culture of Indigenous Microorganisms
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Spam-itxsa: -0.3
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-Spam-Prob: 0.014414
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347350484

hi all!

i will be lecturing on the technology culture of beneficial indigenous
microorganisms and bionutrients this july 11  at ISEES univ. of minnesota in
st. paul for the organic aquaculture workshop.  and in august 24, 2003, will
also be doing one at solfest in hopland, california.  ecofarm association of
watsonville, california is hooking me up to conduct seminars and workshops
on the technology while i am in the united states.  i will arrive july 10 at
st. paul and will leave for manila august 28.

i am taking this opportunity to offer this asian natural farming technology
that wiill really empower the american farmers.

if anyone or group that will be interested to take advantage of my presence
in the united states, you can e-mail me.  you can organize an hour lecture
or a whole day hands-on workshop on the said technology.  after st. paul,
minnesota, i intend to visit iowa and philadelphia.  i also have a plan to
visit new mexico.  and most of the time, i will be based in santa cruz,
california.

many thanks folks!
gil carandang
herbana farms
philippines


>From: "gil carandang" <gil_carandang@hotmail.com>
>To: gil_carandang@hotmail.com
>Subject: Fwd: [SANET-MG] Technology Culture of Indigenous Microorganisms
>Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 17:29:19 +0000
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>From: gil carandang <gil_carandang@HOTMAIL.COM>
>>Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
>><SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
>>To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
>>Subject: [SANET-MG] Technology Culture of Indigenous Microorganisms
>>Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 16:20:12 +0000
>>
>>Hi all!
>>Since I mentioned to my e-mail to Dr.. Elaine Ingham about the culture of
>>indigenous microorganisms for agriculture, a lot of people have e-mailed
>>me
>>on the booklet.  I am then posting the details on this booklet:
>>
>>Technology of Culturing Beneficial Indigenous Microorganisms and
>>Bionutrients for use in Agricultural Crops and Livestock
>>
>>Last January 23, 2003 Gil Carandang of Herbana Farms, a leading organic
>>and
>>natural farming advocate from the Philipines and who recently completed
>>Apprenticeship in Ecological Horticulture at the University  of California
>>Santa Cruz, had just conducted a workshop on Indigenous Microorganism:
>>Grow
>>Your Own at the annual Ecological Farming Conference in Asilomar
>>(Monterey,
>>California) on full-packed crowd.
>>
>>Indigenous Microorganisms (IMO):  Grow Your Own
>>The recent interest in building microorganism populations for fertility
>>and
>>pathogen control has given many farmers food for thought.  Compost teas
>>are
>>now becoming extremely high in concentrations of beneficial
>>microorganisms.
>>This interest is not so new in Asian countries, however, where "Nature
>>Farming" and "Effective Microorganisms" or EM Technology has been popular
>>for years.  Buying starter cultures of beneficiaal microorganisms can be
>>expensive for farmers.  Now a relatively new movement is empowering
>>farmers
>>with knowledge about culturing, increasing and applying local or
>>"indigenous" on-farm beneficial microorganisms.  Learn the basic theory
>>and
>>techniques for growing these farming companions to help increase yields
>>and
>>reduce problems.
>>
>>"The best workshop I had in 18 years!"
>>- Jim Nelson
>>  Camp Joy Gardens
>>  Boulder Creek, California
>>
>>Learn to culture Lacto Bacilli, the workhorse of the beneficial indigenous
>>microorganisms.  Lacto Bacilli arrest foul odors and improve digestion,
>>nutrient intake.
>>-Forest microorganism.  Culture diversed, powerful beneficial indigenous
>>microorganisms from the forest and apply them to your garden and farm and
>>improve soil fertility.
>>-Beneficial Indigenous Microorganisms produce enzymes and natural
>>antibiotic
>>that control pathogens like e. coli and salmonella.
>>-Bionutrients.  Fermented plant extracts to improve soil fertilty, control
>>pests and diseases, increase microbial diversity and ecology.
>>
>>Did you know that you can gather plants in your farm and use them as
>>fermented extracts to improve plant growth serving as natural growth
>>promotants?
>>... and many more!
>>
>>The booklet on this amazing natural farming technology is now available.
>>You can organize your own workshop to learn this Asian Natural Farming
>>technology empowering farmers, self-generating their own inputs through
>>the
>>culture of these Beneficial Indigenous Microorganisms and Bionutrients.
>>Gil
>>Carandang can be reached through e-mail: gil_carandang@hotmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>_________________________________________________________________
>>Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
>>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
>

_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail


From - Mon Jul 21 00:11:34 2003
X-UIDL: 347351763
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id ACC0DCE40090; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 19:58:56 -0400
Received: by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix, from userid 1004)
	id 13EA61EC622; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 19:59:06 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (lists.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9A621EC569
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 19:59:04 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00022E4E@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; 20 Jul 2003 19:58:46 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 24102 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sun, 20 Jul 2003 19:58:46 -0400
Received: from pony.its.uwo.ca by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT
          v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00022E4D@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; 20 Jul 2003
          19:58:45 -0400
Received: from spork.its.uwo.ca (hurdle.its.uwo.ca [129.100.254.76]) by
          pony.its.uwo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h6KNwFe6017153 for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 19:58:15 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from uwo.ca (hs6-8.onemeg.uwo.ca [129.100.6.8]) by spork.its.uwo.ca
          (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h6KNwEpC029367 for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 19:58:14 -0400
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4)
            Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax)
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <Law10-F74sbLmCpLrlz0001f36a@hotmail.com>
            <312084577.20030720175752@gmx.net>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="------------000404090903090204000506"
Message-ID: <3F1B2CAF.1040503@uwo.ca>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 19:58:39 -0400
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: joe cummins <jcummins@UWO.CA>
Subject: Re: spinosad a product of a fungus in organic production?
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To: <312084577.20030720175752@gmx.net>
Precedence: list
X-Spam-itxsa: -1.3
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-Spam-Prob: 0.000002
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347351763

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------000404090903090204000506
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Hello Douglas and Joe Nessim,
I am grateful for your valuable comments.
I thank Douglas for reminding me that actinomycetes are bacteria and not
fungi. Acinomyceters are filamentous spore forming  bacteria that tend
to hang around a lot with fungi.Actinomycetes make most antibiotics.
Years ago when I was a student the actinomycetes were frequently called
fungi or undecided but that debate was cleared up a long time ago. Now
it is impolite to call actinomycetes  fungi.
I understand that the spinosad  is produced by fermentation and not by
chemical synthesis. So long as the insecticide is produced by bacteria
it seems artificial do differ it from Bt.

Douglas Hinds wrote:

>Hello Joe and other saneters following this thread.
>
>Responding to your reply to Joe Cummins reading whether spinosad is
>suitable for use in organic food production:
>
>JN> Yes, spinosad is very effective. A product called Tracer that
>JN> contains 480 gr./liter spinosad is used here in Israel against
>JN> the larva of a night moth that attacks dates (Batrachedra
>JN> amydraula), and replaced previous conventional pesticides (such
>JN> as Dursban) that were being used.
>
>That is very good to know. It would also be good to know the name of
>the fungi which produces the substance found to have antibiotic
>activity (which evidently has been named spinodad), so I checked it
>out:
>
>  Spinosad gets its name from the microbe that produces it, a
>  soil-dwelling bacterium called Saccharopolyspora spinosa.
>  http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/apr00/crop0400.htm
>
>JN> HOWEVER -- this product has NOT been certified for use in
>JN> organic agriculture here, and is not on the lists of approved
>JN> materials certified by IFOAM.
>
>Not having been approved is one thing and having been rejected is
>another and very different matter. Perhaps it hasn't been evaluated
>yet. If it WAS evaluated and was rejected, on what grounds was that
>decision made?
>
>JN> I've just rechecked their website, and if I'm not mistaken
>JN> spinosad does not appear on the list. You can check this at :
>JN> http://www.ifoam.org/standard/norms/ibs.pdf
>
>The word "spinosad" doesn't appear on the IFOAM list nor is it
>contained anywhere in the file you mention above. That may suggest
>that it hasn't been evaluated. (More on this below).
>
>JN>   I believe the reason for not approving the substance has to do with the
>JN> technology behind its production, and not because the agent itself is not
>JN> natural.Possibly even uses some sort of genetic engineering, but I'm not
>JN> certain about that.
>
>You are assuming the spinosad was rejected, then. However, that may
>not be the case. We need to know that.
>
>JN> Whether this brand name (Tracer) is equivalent to the products
>JN> approved by OMRI is something I don't know. OMRI might also be
>JN> less strict than IFOAM. However, since this could possibly have
>JN> something to do with your field of expertise, it might benefit
>JN> this list if you could find out why spinosad has been approved
>JN> by OMRI but not by IFOAM.
>
>1).- The nature and source of the substance would seem to qualify it
>     for organic food production, so if in fact it WAS rejected, it
>     must have been due to some other reason, such as the one you
>     suggested. (A number of Bt strains HAVE been genetically
>     modified, for instance - but that wouldn't rule out Bt strains
>     that weren't).
>
>2).- No global standards exist for providing organic certification.
>     Instead, each country (i.e. the USA or Japan) or commercial
>     block (i.e the European Union) has developed it's own standards
>     for  allowing a product to be marketed as organic.
>
>     In the case of the USA, the Organic Food Production Act (OFPA)
>     of 1990 (but which took effect only last year), mandates the
>     need to have organic products certified as such by one of a
>     number of organic certification agencies accredited by the
>     USDA. Otherwise (with a few minor exceptions), your product can
>     not be sold as organic.
>
>     The reverse is also true. If your products have been certified
>     as organic by any one of a number of organic certification
>     agencies accredited by the USDA, then your product is organic,
>     period.
>
>     Where does the IFOAM fit in? It doesn't! In the US organic
>     market, IFOAM's standards do not determine what is and isn't
>     organic. Furthermore, a number of the organic certification
>     agencies accredited by the USDA aren't even members of the
>     IFOAM.
>
>     So, obviously, you need to know in which market your products
>     will be sold in before you plant, as well as use methods that
>     meet the official standards of that particular market, and use
>     an organic certification agency accredited by the organism
>     responsible for overseeing that market.
>
>     For someone who ships to various markets, each with similar yet
>     slightly different standards, it may be wise to choose a method
>     capable of being certified in any and all of them (such as the
>     one I suggest below).
>
>3).- Being able insure the presence of the fungi itself in the soil
>     and on the plant would seem to me to be a preferable solution,
>     with inoculated compost and compost tea providing the same (or
>     perhaps better) results with less cost, along with an added
>     degree of prevention. Furthermore (unless compost tea is not
>     permitted), you're much more likely to satisfy the
>     certification requirements of all major organic markets.
>
>
>
>>>From: joe cummins <jcummins@UWO.CA>
>>>To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
>>>Subject: [SANET-MG] spinosad a product of a fungus in organic production?
>>>Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 13:08:28 -0400
>>>
>>>An antibiotic product of  a fungus, Spinosad, is providing effective
>>>insect control. Is this product suitable for  use in organic food
>>>production? I do not know the answer and look forward to opinion from
>>>organic gardeners.
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>>>jc
>>>
>>>
>
>Douglas Hinds
>Centro para el Desarrollo Comunitario y Rural (CeDeCoR), A.C.
>(Center for Community and Rural Development, a non-profit organization),
>
>Coordinador Nacional para Producción Organica,
>Confederacion Nacional de Propietarios Rurales
>
>Dir. Gral de Proyectos Especiales,
>Consejo Suprema Nacional Indigena
>
>All in Mexico
>
>Also: Chair of the Working Group on Organic Pineapple of the
>International Society for Horticultural Science and Consultant for
>the FAO group formed to draft a Technical Manual on Organic
>Pineapple Production
>
>--
>
>********************************************************
>
>To unsubscribe from SANET-MG:
>1- Visit http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html and unsubscribe by typing in your e-mail address or;
>2- Send a message to <listserv@sare.org> from the address subscribed to the list. Type "unsubscribe sanet-mg" in the body of the message.
>
>Visit the SANET-MG archives at: http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html
>
>

********************************************************

To unsubscribe from SANET-MG:
1- Visit http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html and unsubscribe by typing in your e-mail address or;
2- Send a message to <listserv@sare.org> from the address subscribed to the list. Type "unsubscribe sanet-mg" in the body of the message.

Visit the SANET-MG archives at: http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html

--------------000404090903090204000506
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-15
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
  <meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
 content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-15">
  <title></title>
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">
Hello Douglas and Joe Nessim,<br>
I am grateful for your valuable comments.<br>
I thank Douglas for reminding me that actinomycetes are bacteria and
not fungi. Acinomyceters are filamentous spore forming  bacteria that
tend to hang around a lot with fungi.Actinomycetes make most
antibiotics. Years ago when I was a student the actinomycetes were
frequently called fungi or undecided but that debate was cleared up a
long time ago. Now it is impolite to call actinomycetes  fungi.<br>
I understand that the spinosad  is produced by fermentation and not by
chemical synthesis. So long as the insecticide is produced by bacteria
it seems artificial do differ it from Bt.<br>
<br>
Douglas Hinds wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid312084577.20030720175752@gmx.net">
  <pre wrap="">Hello Joe and other saneters following this thread.

Responding to your reply to Joe Cummins reading whether spinosad is
suitable for use in organic food production:

JN&gt; Yes, spinosad is very effective. A product called Tracer that
JN&gt; contains 480 gr./liter spinosad is used here in Israel against
JN&gt; the larva of a night moth that attacks dates (Batrachedra
JN&gt; amydraula), and replaced previous conventional pesticides (such
JN&gt; as Dursban) that were being used.

That is very good to know. It would also be good to know the name of
the fungi which produces the substance found to have antibiotic
activity (which evidently has been named spinodad), so I checked it
out:

  Spinosad gets its name from the microbe that produces it, a
  soil-dwelling bacterium called Saccharopolyspora spinosa.
  <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/apr00/crop0400.htm">http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/apr00/crop0400.htm</a>

JN&gt; HOWEVER -- this product has NOT been certified for use in
JN&gt; organic agriculture here, and is not on the lists of approved
JN&gt; materials certified by IFOAM.

Not having been approved is one thing and having been rejected is
another and very different matter. Perhaps it hasn't been evaluated
yet. If it WAS evaluated and was rejected, on what grounds was that
decision made?

JN&gt; I've just rechecked their website, and if I'm not mistaken
JN&gt; spinosad does not appear on the list. You can check this at :
JN&gt; <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ifoam.org/standard/norms/ibs.pdf">http://www.ifoam.org/standard/norms/ibs.pdf</a>

The word "spinosad" doesn't appear on the IFOAM list nor is it
contained anywhere in the file you mention above. That may suggest
that it hasn't been evaluated. (More on this below).

JN&gt;   I believe the reason for not approving the substance has to do with the
JN&gt; technology behind its production, and not because the agent itself is not
JN&gt; natural.Possibly even uses some sort of genetic engineering, but I'm not
JN&gt; certain about that.

You are assuming the spinosad was rejected, then. However, that may
not be the case. We need to know that.

JN&gt; Whether this brand name (Tracer) is equivalent to the products
JN&gt; approved by OMRI is something I don't know. OMRI might also be
JN&gt; less strict than IFOAM. However, since this could possibly have
JN&gt; something to do with your field of expertise, it might benefit
JN&gt; this list if you could find out why spinosad has been approved
JN&gt; by OMRI but not by IFOAM.

1).- The nature and source of the substance would seem to qualify it
     for organic food production, so if in fact it WAS rejected, it
     must have been due to some other reason, such as the one you
     suggested. (A number of Bt strains HAVE been genetically
     modified, for instance - but that wouldn't rule out Bt strains
     that weren't).

2).- No global standards exist for providing organic certification.
     Instead, each country (i.e. the USA or Japan) or commercial
     block (i.e the European Union) has developed it's own standards
     for  allowing a product to be marketed as organic.

     In the case of the USA, the Organic Food Production Act (OFPA)
     of 1990 (but which took effect only last year), mandates the
     need to have organic products certified as such by one of a
     number of organic certification agencies accredited by the
     USDA. Otherwise (with a few minor exceptions), your product can
     not be sold as organic.

     The reverse is also true. If your products have been certified
     as organic by any one of a number of organic certification
     agencies accredited by the USDA, then your product is organic,
     period.

     Where does the IFOAM fit in? It doesn't! In the US organic
     market, IFOAM's standards do not determine what is and isn't
     organic. Furthermore, a number of the organic certification
     agencies accredited by the USDA aren't even members of the
     IFOAM.

     So, obviously, you need to know in which market your products
     will be sold in before you plant, as well as use methods that
     meet the official standards of that particular market, and use
     an organic certification agency accredited by the organism
     responsible for overseeing that market.

     For someone who ships to various markets, each with similar yet
     slightly different standards, it may be wise to choose a method
     capable of being certified in any and all of them (such as the
     one I suggest below).

3).- Being able insure the presence of the fungi itself in the soil
     and on the plant would seem to me to be a preferable solution,
     with inoculated compost and compost tea providing the same (or
     perhaps better) results with less cost, along with an added
     degree of prevention. Furthermore (unless compost tea is not
     permitted), you're much more likely to satisfy the
     certification requirements of all major organic markets.

  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">From: joe cummins <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jcummins@UWO.CA">&lt;jcummins@UWO.CA&gt;</a>
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU">SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU</a>
Subject: [SANET-MG] spinosad a product of a fungus in organic production?
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 13:08:28 -0400

An antibiotic product of  a fungus, Spinosad, is providing effective
insect control. Is this product suitable for  use in organic food
production? I do not know the answer and look forward to opinion from
organic gardeners.
      </pre>
    </blockquote>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">jc
      </pre>
    </blockquote>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->
Douglas Hinds
Centro para el Desarrollo Comunitario y Rural (CeDeCoR), A.C.
(Center for Community and Rural Development, a non-profit organization),

Coordinador Nacional para Producción Organica,
Confederacion Nacional de Propietarios Rurales

Dir. Gral de Proyectos Especiales,
Consejo Suprema Nacional Indigena

All in Mexico

Also: Chair of the Working Group on Organic Pineapple of the
International Society for Horticultural Science and Consultant for
the FAO group formed to draft a Technical Manual on Organic
Pineapple Production

--

********************************************************

To unsubscribe from SANET-MG:
1- Visit <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html">http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html</a> and unsubscribe by typing in your e-mail address or;
2- Send a message to <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:listserv@sare.org">&lt;listserv@sare.org&gt;</a> from the address subscribed to the list. Type "unsubscribe sanet-mg" in the body of the message.

Visit the SANET-MG archives at: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html">http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html</a>
  </pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>
<div class=Section1>

<p class=MsoNormal><![if !supportEmptyParas]>&NBSP;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal>*****************************************************</p>

<p class=MsoNormal>To unsubscribe from SANET-MG:<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal>1- Visit <a
href="http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html">http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html</a>
and unsubscribe by typing in your e-mail address or;<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal>2- Send a message to <a href="mailto:listserv@sare.org">mailto:listserv@sare.org</a>
from the address subscribed to the list. Type &QUOT;unsubscribe sanet-mg&QUOT;
in the body of the message.<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal>&NBSP;<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal>Visit the SANET-MG archives at: <a
href="http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html">http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html</a><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><![if !supportEmptyParas]>&NBSP;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

--------------000404090903090204000506--


From - Wed Jul 30 12:36:05 2003
X-UIDL: 347352515
X-Mozilla-Status: 0000
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id AB21A9970062; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:58:25 -0400
Received: by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix, from userid 1004)
	id 5D4271ECFF1; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:47:15 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu [152.2.210.119])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C56981ECE49
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:47:14 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id EE65A200B0; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:45:39 -0400 (EDT)
Delivered-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from mail.ncat.org (unknown [65.19.194.132])
	by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64B0B20088
	for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>;
	Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:45:37 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from ncat.org ([130.184.56.84]) (authenticated)
	by mail.ncat.org (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h6UFjdd26060
	for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 09:45:39 -0600
Message-ID: <3F27E829.2030700@ncat.org>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 10:45:45 -0500
From: Steve Diver <steved@ncat.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Subject: [permaculture] Re: Permaculture contacts in or near Bombay India
X-BeenThere: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2
Precedence: list
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: permaculture  <permaculture.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
	<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture>
List-Post: <mailto:permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
	<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
Sender: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
Errors-To: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Spam-itxsa: 0
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-Spam-Prob: 0.014414
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347352515

Hi Debra -

Your web page is beautiful and inspiring. A yurt is a nice abode.

I can provide some contacts for India, but let me get back
later with details.

E.g.,
Pune, India.... which is about 4 hours away from Bombay/Mumbai
by bus, is home to a half dozen institutes and organizations developing
and promoting vermicomposting / vermiculture.

See:

[permaculture] Vermicompost + Cuba + India
30 May 2002
http://csf.colorado.edu/archive/2002/permaculture/msg01124.html


E.g.,
Near Bombay you have the state of Gujarat. The Bombay-
Gujarat region is where Swadhyaya movement is centered.
Led by teacher Pandurang Shrastri Athavale, the Swadhyaya
movement is keen on plant-based pest control, vermicomposting,
organic farming, alternative crops, water well recharge, and related
green technologies. It promotes the ancient teachings of India --
the Vedas and Upanishads -- as a framework for modern living
and re-integration following cultural displacement by European
colonialism. It promotes villagers working and eating together
on volunteer farms, also learning these green technologies -- Hindus,
Muslims, and Christains working together -- who then take these
appropriate technologies back to their villages and teach. When
you consider that every one of the 19,000 villages in Gujarat
has been visited by Swadhyaya, and you observe how it teaches,
it becomes apparent that Swadhyaya is one of the most powerful
appropriate technology dissimenation programs in the world.

Organic organic farming and biodynamic farming in India is
growing by leaps and bounds. The climate is amenable to
polyculture food plants extraordinairre, and good quality
cow dung is available for good quality BD preprations like
BD 500, Cow Patty Pit (CPP), BD compost, vermicompost.

Here is my biblio on Plants and Agriculture of India, which you
may find helpful:

Selected Bibliography on the Useful Plants and Agriculture of India
http://www.ipa.net/~steved/plants-india.html

Regards,
Steve Diver
steved@ncat.org

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Title: Permaculture contacts in or near Bombay India
Ill be traveling to Bombay India the December to attend a friends 
wedding. Afterwards, Ill have a couple weeks to explore some of my 
interests. Does anyone know of permaculture / ecological building and or 
interesting organic garden projects in or near the Bombay area that we 
could visit?
Thanks Much,
Debra Amerson, MA Business
Artist & Plantscape Designer

Plantris
Healthy Habitats With Plants & Art

Voice 415.267.7606
Fax 415.488.1564
debra@plantris.com
http://www.plantris.com

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++




_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture


From - Sat Aug 02 14:03:01 2003
X-UIDL: 347352705
X-Mozilla-Status: 0000
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A2B998E023C; Sat, 02 Aug 2003 13:19:53 -0400
Received: by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix, from userid 1004)
	id C08791EE7BB; Sat,  2 Aug 2003 11:07:14 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (lists.sare.org [128.227.242.235])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D5AF1F0281
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Sat,  2 Aug 2003 10:33:32 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0002494A@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sat, 2 Aug 2003 10:32:14 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 21670 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sat, 2 Aug 2003 10:32:14 -0400
Received: from priv-edtnes61.telusplanet.net (outbound01.telus.net) by
          lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id
          <0.00024949@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sat, 2 Aug 2003 10:32:14 -0400
Received: from x4s0z7 ([207.6.52.152]) by priv-edtnes61.telusplanet.net
          (InterMail vM.5.01.05.17 201-253-122-126-117-20021021) with SMTP id
          <20030802143140.TUBJ20544.priv-edtnes61.telusplanet.net@x4s0z7> for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Sat, 2 Aug 2003 08:31:40 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0)
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200
Importance: Normal
Message-ID: <NHBBIMLGMLCAFAJEAAGDMEACCJAA.rare@telus.net>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 07:31:47 -0700
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: Rochelle <rare@TELUS.NET>
Subject: let the soil work for us - now available online
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Spam-itxsa: -0.4
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-Spam-Prob: 0.014414
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347352705

“Let the soil work for us” by Elliott, E. T. and Coleman, D. C. the
Ecological Bulletin article Joel Gruver has referenced more than once on
SANET is now posted at
http://www.certifiedorganic.bc.ca/rcbtoa/training/soil-article.html
Would like to express my appreciation to David Coleman, Ecological Bulletin,
Mary Gold (AFSIC) and Joel Gruver who each helped bring this to fruition.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Rochelle Eisen
COABC's Cyber-Help Coordinator
Site 48 RR3 C7  Summerland BC Canada V0H 1Z0
250.494.7980 (p) 250.494.7985 (f)
Cyber-Help For Organic Farmers http://www.certifiedorganic.bc.ca/rcbtoa
Subscribe to our Cyber-Help Newsletter mailto:cyber-help@jnweb.com

********************************************************

To unsubscribe from SANET-MG:
1- Visit http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html and unsubscribe by typing in your e-mail address or;
2- Send a message to <listserv@sare.org> from the address subscribed to the list. Type "unsubscribe sanet-mg" in the body of the message.

Visit the SANET-MG archives at: http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html


From - Sun Sep 21 10:50:57 2003
X-UIDL: 347355843
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A78A95C90040; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 01:30:50 -0400
Received: by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix, from userid 1004)
	id 9BE6E1EC53A; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 01:32:41 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu [152.2.210.119])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D9671EC4B9
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 01:32:41 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id 0CB482003E; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 01:30:37 -0400 (EDT)
Delivered-To: compostteas@lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from omta08.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net
	[216.200.145.37])
	by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAD402003E
	for <compostteas@lists.ibiblio.org>;
	Sun, 21 Sep 2003 01:30:34 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (unknown [216.200.145.29])
	by omta08.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36A6641FDF
	for <compostteas@lists.ibiblio.org>;
	Sat, 20 Sep 2003 22:30:34 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99)
	id EE88743DE; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 22:30:33 -0700 (PDT)
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----------=_1064122233-24290-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 22:30:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: liion sastar <isalive@rawfoods.com>
To: "Compost Teas: 24 hour, EM, IM,  BD & fermented plant extracts" <compostteas@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [compostteas] e. coli suppression
X-Originating-Ip: [4.41.84.101]
Message-Id: <20030921053033.EE88743DE@sitemail.everyone.net>
X-BeenThere: compostteas@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2
Precedence: list
Reply-To: "Compost Teas: 24 hour, EM, IM,  BD & fermented plant extracts" <compostteas@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: Compost Teas: 24 hour, EM, IM, BD & fermented plant extracts
	<compostteas.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/compostteas>,
	<mailto:compostteas-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/compostteas>
List-Post: <mailto:compostteas@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:compostteas-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/compostteas>,
	<mailto:compostteas-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
Sender: compostteas-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
Errors-To: compostteas-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Spam-itxsa: 1.3
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347355843

This is a multi-part message in MIME format...

------------=_1064122233-24290-1
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


suppression is by what is known as "eco-sterilizing".  there is a finite amount of space within any solution, that is its holding capacity for life.  if you fill all of the spaces with probiotic life forms, there with be no available room for pathogenic forms to live.  both forms take to different environments to live.  most pathogens thrive in anaerobic conditions, that is why compost teas must have an air pump.  any space within the solution that become less than oxygenated  would have the possibility to become breeding grounds for the pathogens.  em, effective microorganism,  is a collection of probiotic forms that work in an anaerobic environ.  these are reported to inhibit not so friendly forms as well as use them as food.  check out soilfoodweb.com... some leaders in the information revolution

--- "nafiisa sobratee" <nafiisas@hotmail.com> wrote:


_____________________________________________________________
Learn about the power of raw foods at ---> http://www.rawfoods.com

------------=_1064122233-24290-1
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404)

Received: from happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu
	[152.2.210.119])
	by imta14.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DB15185807
	for <isalive@rawfoods.com>; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 22:17:08 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id D20012002F; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 01:17:06 -0400 (EDT)
Delivered-To: compostteas@lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from hotmail.com (law10-f74.law10.hotmail.com [64.4.15.74])
	by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7BFB20016
	for <compostteas@lists.ibiblio.org>;
	Fri, 12 Sep 2003 01:17:04 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC;
	Thu, 11 Sep 2003 22:17:04 -0700
Received: from 202.123.10.241 by lw10fd.law10.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP;
	Fri, 12 Sep 2003 05:17:03 GMT
X-Originating-IP: [202.123.10.241]
X-Originating-Email: [nafiisas@hotmail.com]
From: "nafiisa sobratee" <nafiisas@hotmail.com>
To: compostteas@lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 05:17:03 +0000
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <Law10-F74Xdw3FxRH2W000404e7@hotmail.com>
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Sep 2003 05:17:04.0227 (UTC)
	FILETIME=[1A6A6B30:01C378ED]
Subject: [compostteas] e. coli suppression
X-BeenThere: compostteas@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2
Precedence: list
Reply-To: "Compost Teas: 24 hour, EM, IM,
	BD & fermented plant extracts" <compostteas@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: Compost Teas: 24 hour, EM, IM, BD & fermented plant extracts
	<compostteas.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/compostteas>,
	<mailto:compostteas-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/compostteas>
List-Post: <mailto:compostteas@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:compostteas-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/compostteas>,
	<mailto:compostteas-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============70961742176905407=="
Sender: compostteas-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
Errors-To: compostteas-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org

--===============70961742176905407==
Content-Type: text/html

<html><div style='background-color:'><DIV>
<P>dear members</P>
<P>could somebody explain to me the mechanism of pathogen suppresion in compost, especially with reference to e. coli, fecal streptococcus.</P>
<P>I would also appreciate if i could be informed about any website, treating such info.</P>
<P>Nafiisa<BR><BR></P></DIV></div><br clear=all><hr>Add photos to your messages with  <a href="http://g.msn.com/8HMHEN/2749??PS=">MSN 8. </a> Get 2 months FREE*.</html>

--===============70961742176905407==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

_______________________________________________
compostteas mailing list
compostteas@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/compostteas

--===============70961742176905407==--

------------=_1064122233-24290-1
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

_______________________________________________
compostteas mailing list
compostteas@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/compostteas

------------=_1064122233-24290-1--


From - Thu Oct 02 14:28:53 2003
X-UIDL: 347356683
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-7.14) id A4554B600076; Thu, 02 Oct 2003 13:45:57 -0400
Received: by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix, from userid 1004)
	id C19271EC79D; Thu,  2 Oct 2003 12:51:28 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C81C1EC769
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Thu,  2 Oct 2003 12:51:28 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00037955@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Thu, 2 Oct 2003 12:49:11 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 38107 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Thu, 2 Oct 2003 12:49:11 -0400
Received: from scc031.its.state.nc.us by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows
          NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00037953@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Thu, 2 Oct
          2003 12:49:11 -0400
Received: from ncsu.edu ([207.4.153.132]) by scc031.its.state.nc.us
          (8.12.10/8.12.10/DFR) with ESMTP id h92GmOQL005520; Thu, 2 Oct 2003
          12:48:24 -0400 (EDT)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Filter-Version: 1.12 (scc031)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <3F7C5686.84554B66@ncsu.edu>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 12:47:02 -0400
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: Debbie Roos <debbie_roos@NCSU.EDU>
Organization: NC Cooperative Extension Service
Subject: NC workshop on compost and compost tea
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Spam-itxsa: -0.1
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 347356683

                   Enhancing Sustainability Workshop:
        Compost Teas, Compost, and On-farm Beneficial Microbe Extracts

                            October 20, 2003
                              Pittsboro, NC

The Chatham County Center of North Carolina Cooperative Extension will
present a crop
production workshop as part of its Enhancing Sustainability Workshop
Series on Monday, October 20, from 9:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. in the
auditorium of the Agricultural Building in Pittsboro, North Carolina.
“Compost Teas, Compost, and On-farm Beneficial Microbe Extracts” will be
presented by Steve Diver, a Program Specialist from ATTRA (Appropriate
Technology Transfer for Rural Areas), the USDA-funded national
sustainable agriculture information service of the National Center for
Appropriate Technology (NCAT) based in Arkansas; Dr. Frank Louws, North
Carolina State University Researcher and Extension Plant Pathologist
specializing in sustainable disease management for NC growers; and
Debbie Roos, Agricultural Extension Agent with North Carolina
Cooperative Extension in Chatham County. The program is outlined below.

Compost Teas

   * History of Compost Teas
   * Types of Compost Teas and Extracts
   * Components of Compost Teas
   * Use and Benefits of Compost Teas
   * Rhizosphere and Phyllosphere Target Sites
   * Rhizosphere Benefits for Microorganisms
   * Soil Foodweb Concepts
   * Compost Teas for Disease Suppression
   * Mechanisms and Target Pathogens
   * Compost Tea Production Methods
   * Brewing Compost Teas
   * Compost Tea Recipes
   * Compost Tea Brewing Equipment: Commercial-scale and Home-made
   * Minimum Standards for Compost
   * Pathogen Risk Reduction
   * Compost Tea Use in North Carolina - What Are Farmers Doing?

Compost, Humus, and the Living Soil

   * Soil Foodweb Concepts
   * Compost Methods
   * Farm-scale Compost Turners
   * Compost Quality and Standards
   * Humified Compost
   * Mineralization Rate
   * Using Compost as an Inoculant to Improve Crop Vigor - NC Research

Parallel On-farm Extracts and Beneficial Microbe Inoculation Systems

   * Effective Microorganisms
   * Indigenous Microorganisms
   * Biodynamic Preparations
   * Cow Patty Pit
   * Fermented Plant Extracts
   * Purchased Inputs and On-farm Inputs
   * Alternative Farming Systems Tools: Nature Farming, Biodynamics,
     BioOrganics
   * Substrate and Microbial Culture
   * Benefits of Plant and Compost Extracts

The cost of the workshop will be $20 and includes lunch and a
comprehensive resource notebook. Pre-registration is required by October
10. Contact Debbie Roos at 919-542-8202 for more information. To
register, download a registration form from the Workshop section of the
Growing Small Farms website at
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/chatham/ag/SustAg/index.html and mail it with
your check to Debbie Roos, PO Box 279, Pittsboro, NC 27312. Hotel
information is available upon request.

--
Debbie Roos
Agricultural Extension Agent, Organic and Sustainable Agriculture
North Carolina State University
College of Agriculture and Life Sciences
North Carolina Cooperative Extension, Chatham County Center
Growing Small Farms Website:
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/chatham/ag/SustAg/index.html
Post Office Box 279  Pittsboro, NC  27312
E-mail:  debbie_roos@ncsu.edu
Phone:  919.542.8202  FAX:  919.542.8246


********************************************************

To unsubscribe from SANET-MG:
1- Visit http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html and unsubscribe by typing in your e-mail address or;
2- Send a message to <listserv@sare.org> from the address subscribed to the list. Type "unsubscribe sanet-mg" in the body of the message.

Visit the SANET-MG archives at: http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html


From - Fri Nov 14 13:44:56 2003
X-UIDL: 368600018
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-8.04) id A9723227004C; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 13:05:38 -0500
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC2E51EC5F7
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 13:05:37 -0500 (EST)
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00041626@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 13:06:29 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 37361 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Fri, 14 Nov 2003 13:06:29 -0500
Received: from imo-m06.mx.aol.com by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT
          v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00041624@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Fri, 14 Nov 2003
          13:06:29 -0500
Received: from CAVM@aol.com by imo-m06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id
          d.107.289ea5d1 (657) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Fri, 14 Nov
          2003 13:05:32 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10717
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID:  <107.289ea5d1.2ce6736c@aol.com>
Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 2003 13:05:32 EST
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: CAVM@AOL.COM
Subject: Compost discussion group
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 368600018

Send Compost mailing list submissions to
    compost@compostingcouncil.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
    http://mailman.cloudnet.com/mailman/listinfo/compost
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
    compost-request@compostingcouncil.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
    compost-admin@compostingcouncil.org

********************************************************

To unsubscribe from SANET-MG:
1- Visit http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html and unsubscribe by typing in your e-mail address or;
2- Send a message to <listserv@sare.org> from the address subscribed to the list. Type "unsubscribe sanet-mg" in the body of the message.

Visit the SANET-MG archives at: http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html


From - Fri Nov 14 15:35:25 2003
X-UIDL: 368600024
X-Mozilla-Status: 0000
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-8.04) id A2864E98006A; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 14:52:38 -0500
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2548A1EC57B
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 14:52:38 -0500 (EST)
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00041753@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 14:53:29 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 37726 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Fri, 14 Nov 2003 14:53:29 -0500
Received: from mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows
          NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00041751@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Fri, 14 Nov
          2003 14:53:29 -0500
Received: from Harold (ool-4356fecc.dyn.optonline.net [67.86.254.204]) by
          mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16
          (built May 14 2003)) with SMTP id
          <0HOC007PYXVM9M@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for
          SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 14:52:35 -0500 (EST)
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Importance: Normal
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
Message-ID:  <OOEELNNGDNNHJGJOADLIKEDOCIAA.reidchris@earthlink.net>
Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 2003 14:52:36 -0500
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: chris reid <reidchris@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Compost Tea Experiences, Questions, and Recommendations
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <200311120736.1ajX3h4BR3NZFl40@penguin>
Precedence: list
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 368600024

Over the past few months, I've been putting together a document of ideas,
experiences and best practices in aerobically active compost tea (AACT)
brewing and use, as part of a Yahoo compost tea e-group moderated by Jeff
Lowenfels.  I use the tea in my landscaping practice, and others use it in
gardens, farms, and even some use it for houseplants.

The interest and impetus for putting together this document was that it is
not easy to gather together the information to brew good tea.  Elaine
Ingham's Compost Tea Brewing Manual provides a wealth of useful information,
but I find there is even more to know than is provided in this pioneering
document.

As a result of this still-incomplete project, I've now been asked to speak
at a local conference on the topic of compost tea.  I just began using it
last summer, so it is premature to draw public conclusions about my own
limited experiences and I think it best and most responsible to function and
speak more as a reporter who has spoken to many others about their
experiences.

So now you have the background.  In preparation for the conference talk, I'm
interested in hearing from anyone using compost tea in farm, garden, or
landscape settings.  What has your experience been?  What kind of setup,
ingredients, and recipes are you using? Have you tested your teas?  What are
the results - positive and unintended or negative -- that you believe you
have observed? What other inputs or practices are you using in the plots
where you are using tea?

I am clear that some of the information will be anecdotal, other info more
documentable.

I welcome comments either on or off list.

Thanks,

Chris Reid

********************************************************

To unsubscribe from SANET-MG:
1- Visit http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html and unsubscribe by typing in your e-mail address or;
2- Send a message to <listserv@sare.org> from the address subscribed to the list. Type "unsubscribe sanet-mg" in the body of the message.

Visit the SANET-MG archives at: http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html


From - Fri Nov 14 15:35:25 2003
X-UIDL: 368600024
X-Mozilla-Status: 0000
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from mailserv.intrex.net [209.42.192.237] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-8.04) id A2864E98006A; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 14:52:38 -0500
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235])
	by mailserv.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2548A1EC57B
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 14:52:38 -0500 (EST)
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00041753@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 14:53:29 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 37726 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Fri, 14 Nov 2003 14:53:29 -0500
Received: from mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows
          NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00041751@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Fri, 14 Nov
          2003 14:53:29 -0500
Received: from Harold (ool-4356fecc.dyn.optonline.net [67.86.254.204]) by
          mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16
          (built May 14 2003)) with SMTP id
          <0HOC007PYXVM9M@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for
          SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 14:52:35 -0500 (EST)
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Importance: Normal
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
Message-ID:  <OOEELNNGDNNHJGJOADLIKEDOCIAA.reidchris@earthlink.net>
Date:         Fri, 14 Nov 2003 14:52:36 -0500
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: chris reid <reidchris@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Compost Tea Experiences, Questions, and Recommendations
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <200311120736.1ajX3h4BR3NZFl40@penguin>
Precedence: list
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@INTREX.NET>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 368600024

Over the past few months, I've been putting together a document of ideas,
experiences and best practices in aerobically active compost tea (AACT)
brewing and use, as part of a Yahoo compost tea e-group moderated by Jeff
Lowenfels.  I use the tea in my landscaping practice, and others use it in
gardens, farms, and even some use it for houseplants.

The interest and impetus for putting together this document was that it is
not easy to gather together the information to brew good tea.  Elaine
Ingham's Compost Tea Brewing Manual provides a wealth of useful information,
but I find there is even more to know than is provided in this pioneering
document.

As a result of this still-incomplete project, I've now been asked to speak
at a local conference on the topic of compost tea.  I just began using it
last summer, so it is premature to draw public conclusions about my own
limited experiences and I think it best and most responsible to function and
speak more as a reporter who has spoken to many others about their
experiences.

So now you have the background.  In preparation for the conference talk, I'm
interested in hearing from anyone using compost tea in farm, garden, or
landscape settings.  What has your experience been?  What kind of setup,
ingredients, and recipes are you using? Have you tested your teas?  What are
the results - positive and unintended or negative -- that you believe you
have observed? What other inputs or practices are you using in the plots
where you are using tea?

I am clear that some of the information will be anecdotal, other info more
documentable.

I welcome comments either on or off list.

Thanks,

Chris Reid

********************************************************

To unsubscribe from SANET-MG:
1- Visit http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html and unsubscribe by typing in your e-mail address or;
2- Send a message to <listserv@sare.org> from the address subscribed to the list. Type "unsubscribe sanet-mg" in the body of the message.

Visit the SANET-MG archives at: http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html


From - Fri Jan 09 21:12:41 2004
X-UIDL: 368606278
X-Mozilla-Status: 0000
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from mailserv1.intrex.net [209.42.192.236] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-8.04) id ABFA534200F8; Fri, 09 Jan 2004 19:48:58 -0500
Received: by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix)
	id 5522ABB2F; Fri,  9 Jan 2004 19:48:58 -0500 (EST)
Delivered-To: lfl@intrex.net
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 392F7BA72
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Fri,  9 Jan 2004 19:48:58 -0500 (EST)
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (lists.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC936BA6C
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Fri,  9 Jan 2004 19:48:57 -0500 (EST)
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0004E6DB@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 19:49:57 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 46161 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Fri, 9 Jan 2004 19:49:57 -0500
Received: from web11208.mail.yahoo.com by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows
          NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0004E6DA@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Fri, 9 Jan
          2004 19:49:57 -0500
Received: from [67.124.111.30] by web11208.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 09 Jan
          2004 16:48:54 PST
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID:  <20040110004854.8591.qmail@web11208.mail.yahoo.com>
Date:         Fri, 9 Jan 2004 16:48:54 -0800
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: Lion Kuntz <lionkuntz@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Your Challenge Accepted -- Here are links to data
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <5.2.0.9.0.20040109181048.027c0640@gwpop.wvu.edu>
Precedence: list
X-Virus-Scanned: by viruswatch at intrex.net
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@mail.intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 368606278

--- James Kotcon <jkotcon@WVU.EDU> wrote:
[snip]
>          I would be interested in any data
> challenging my assumption that
> the same physical, chemical, and biological
> phenomena occur in both
> conventional and organic systems.
>
> Jim Kotcon

Oh, where to start...

Firstly, seek out studies demonstrating the "burn-off"
of organic matter in chemical nitrogen fertilized
soils. As N is often a leading limiting factor in
soils preventing population explosions of mibrobial
life, additions of pure N are all that are needed to
ignite this explosion.

Soon thereafter the other nutrients are incorporated
in the dominant lifeforms. A secondary population
explosion goes on of their predators. The high
turnover of microbes reduces the C ratio be exhalation
of CO2. The rapid loss of carbon seriously affects the
tilth qualities of the soils. Only photosynthesizers
can add C from the atmosphere

Then seek out the studies on actinomycetes
phosphate-pump soil function. With the reduced C comes
the death of the actinomycetes, whom cannot sustain
the phosphorus transfer from high to low gradients.
Increased dependancy on phosphate inputs are now
required.

With depleted C mobile N has fewer binding sites and
leaching problems can occur. Plus more frequent
applications of higher levels of N become necessary.
Organic systems do not add external N whatsoever, but
grow it directly on the spot in many cases, but some
add compost or manures to add OM including bound N.

Reduced C levels also has drastically lower
mycorrhizia populations, which stresses the plants
required to more work to obtain their nutrients.

High levels of organic material buffer pH, and greatly
improve plant-availability of nutrients bound to the
many binding sites on the molecules.

The diverse micro-ecosystems supports a great myriad
of organisms which burrow, tunnel and churn the soil,
aerating it and making nutrients available to the
community through their wide toolkits of chemotrophy,
lithotrophy and metabolic acids/enzymes.

Your statement indicates you have not made the most
superficial comparison of the two diverse paradigms.

Here are starting links pages I collected several
years ago. If links are dead, try them on the
waybackmachine.com archives:
http://www.ecosyn.us/ecocity/Links/Visual_Pages/SoilLife/Soil_Life_01.html

Other collections of pages on thems can be found here:
http://www.ecosyn.us/ecocity/Links/Visual_Pages/VisualLinks01.html

In fact, here are the contents of my ecoag-links:
http://www.ecosyn.us/ecocity/Links/Visual_Pages/Links_Files.html

http://ecosyn.us/ecocity/Links/My_Links_Pages/alcohol_distill_01.html
http://ecosyn.us/ecocity/Links/My_Links_Pages/biomass_crops_01.html
http://ecosyn.us/ecocity/Links/My_Links_Pages/chicken_manure01.html
http://ecosyn.us/ecocity/Links/My_Links_Pages/duckweed_01.html
http://ecosyn.us/ecocity/Links/My_Links_Pages/earthworms_01.htm
http://ecosyn.us/ecocity/Links/My_Links_Pages/easy_mushrooms_01.html
http://ecosyn.us/ecocity/Links/My_Links_Pages/eco-san_01.html
http://ecosyn.us/ecocity/Links/My_Links_Pages/eco-san_refs_01.html
http://ecosyn.us/ecocity/Links/My_Links_Pages/eco-san-safety-01.html
http://ecosyn.us/ecocity/Links/My_Links_Pages/herbs_01.html
http://ecosyn.us/ecocity/Links/My_Links_Pages/Hog_Pollution.html
http://ecosyn.us/ecocity/Links/My_Links_Pages/low_tech_mushrooms01.html
http://ecosyn.us/ecocity/Links/My_Links_Pages/mesclun_01.html
http://ecosyn.us/ecocity/Links/My_Links_Pages/microdiversity.html
http://ecosyn.us/ecocity/Links/My_Links_Pages/nutrition_protein_01.html
http://ecosyn.us/ecocity/Links/My_Links_Pages/pathogen_safety_01.html
http://ecosyn.us/ecocity/Links/My_Links_Pages/rabbit_manure01.html
http://ecosyn.us/ecocity/Links/My_Links_Pages/sprouting_01.html
http://ecosyn.us/ecocity/Links/My_Links_Pages/water_hyacinth01.html
http://ecosyn.us/ecocity/Links/My_Links_Pages/Water_Pure_WH_01.html

http://ecosyn.us/ecocity/Links/Visual_Pages/Ag_Biomass/Ag_Biomass_01.html
http://ecosyn.us/ecocity/Links/Visual_Pages/Bamboo/Bamboo_01.html
http://ecosyn.us/ecocity/Links/Visual_Pages/Biodiversity/Biodiversity_01.html
http://ecosyn.us/ecocity/Links/Visual_Pages/CompanionPlanting/CompanionPlanting_01.html
http://ecosyn.us/ecocity/Links/Visual_Pages/WOFE/Homeless_Women_01.html
http://ecosyn.us/ecocity/Links/Visual_Pages/Knowledgebase/Knowledgebase_01.html
http://ecosyn.us/ecocity/Links/Visual_Pages/MushroomTek/MushroomTek_01.html
http://ecosyn.us/ecocity/Links/Visual_Pages/MushroomTek/MushroomTek_02.html
http://ecosyn.us/ecocity/Links/Visual_Pages/ProtectedGrowing/ProtectedGrowing_01.html
http://ecosyn.us/ecocity/Links/Visual_Pages/Rabbits/Rabbits_01.html
http://ecosyn.us/ecocity/Links/Visual_Pages/Santa_Cruz/Santa_Cruz_01.html
http://ecosyn.us/ecocity/Links/Visual_Pages/Sebastopol/Sebastopol_01.html
http://ecosyn.us/ecocity/Links/Visual_Pages/SoilLife/Soil_Life_01.html
http://ecosyn.us/ecocity/Links/Visual_Pages/Visual_Links_Pages.html
http://ecosyn.us/ecocity/Links/Visual_Pages/VisualLinks01.html
http://ecosyn.us/ecocity/Links/Visual_Pages/WastesRecycling/WastesRecycling_01.html

Last updated 17.2.2003

=====
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Sincerely, Lion Kuntz
Santa Rosa, California, USA
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Suggested Websites:
Wesley Clark for President http://www.clark04.com/
http://www.ecosyn.us/ecocity/Ecosyn/Flowchart.html
http://www.ecosyn.us/ecocity/Ecosyn/IBS_Math.html
http://www.ecosyn.us/ecocity/Proposal/Palaces_For_The_People.html
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Palaces4People/
http://P4P.blogspot.com
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus

********************************************************

To unsubscribe from SANET-MG:
1- Visit http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html and unsubscribe by typing in your e-mail address or;
2- Send a message to <listserv@sare.org> from the address subscribed to the list. Type "unsubscribe sanet-mg" in the body of the message.

Visit the SANET-MG archives at: http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html


From - Fri Jan 16 11:26:50 2004
X-UIDL: 368606952
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from mailserv1.intrex.net [209.42.192.236] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-8.04) id A73CB51003E; Fri, 16 Jan 2004 10:46:04 -0500
Received: by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix)
	id B2639B9CD; Fri, 16 Jan 2004 10:46:04 -0500 (EST)
Delivered-To: lfl@intrex.net
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97732B9C9
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Fri, 16 Jan 2004 10:46:04 -0500 (EST)
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (srvtask.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BD09B99E
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Fri, 16 Jan 2004 10:46:04 -0500 (EST)
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0004F89C@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Fri, 16 Jan 2004 10:47:04 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 51539 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Fri, 16 Jan 2004 10:47:04 -0500
Received: from mail.ncat.org (209.137.246.130:4526) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu
          (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id
          <0.0004F89B@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Fri, 16 Jan 2004 10:47:04 -0500
Received: from ncat.org ([130.184.56.84]) (authenticated) by mail.ncat.org
          (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id i0GFkJp26830 for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Fri, 16 Jan 2004 08:46:19 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <Law15-F40S7ZZICM8ls0002c8f6@hotmail.com>
            <1074012930.18176.478.camel@redoak.complum.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID:  <400806AA.80300@ncat.org>
Date:         Fri, 16 Jan 2004 09:43:38 -0600
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: Steve Diver <steved@NCAT.ORG>
Subject: Re: ACRES observations
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Virus-Scanned: by viruswatch at intrex.net
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@mail.intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 368606952

Hey, it was Carey Reams who used the terms
anionic and cationic in a different manner than
common usage in chemical textbooks.

But so what, Carey Reams was a clairovoyant
medical doctor and chemistry genius who became an
ecofarming advisor to raise nutritionally sound
produce for humans.... since conventional produce
had gotten so poor.

One of the large farms in California reduced
their pesticide bill by half a million dollars after
adopting the Reams fertility program.... since
the Reams approach pays close to attention
to healthy plants.   I doubt the farm manager
worried about terminology that "conformed", eh?

Neal Kinsey was a student of William Albrecht
at Univ of Missouri, and thank goodness because
Kinsey can teach the Albrecht soil test calcuations and
explain the Albrecht soil fertility approach better than
any book.

Don Schriefer has two books and they
provide an excellent overview of the ecofarming
approach to soil management.  "From the Soil Up"
and "Agriculture in Transition."

Gary Zimmer's book is really good, "The Biological
Farmer", so are the booklets from Midwestern Bio-Ag:
"Crop Pests and Fertilizers - Is There a Connection",
"Roots - The Hidden Half".... so is their soil fertilty
manual that explains Albrecht-style soil test interpretation
in detail.

Steve Diver
http://www.attra.ncat.org


Art Petrzelka wrote:

>Thanks, Joel, for your critique. I appreciate the time that you took to
>help meout.
>
>The chemistry and scientific method in Acres U.S.A. is atrocious if you
>try to treat it as traditional chemistry. When reading Neal Kinsey's
>Hand's on Agronomy, I had to suspend my prior assumptions of chemistry,
>small as they are, so that I could try to understand what he was saying.
>That group has its own terminology, which can unfortunately be mistaken
>for chemistry. Kinsey's use of anion/cation, for instance, is contrary
>to common usage.
>
>Maybe I'm more amenable to this because of my education as an engineer.
>We're used to warping science to fit practical matters. The Chemistry,
>Math and Physics profs used to hate to teach us. They thought that we
>were hopelessly inaccurate. :-)  I almost said imprecise, because that
>is the engineer's most feared fault. Precision over accuracy, that's our
>game!
>
>But, back to chemistry, I don't know of any other game in town that
>addresses the minor minerals. I got soil tests through the state
>extension service last spring. All I get is NPK, organic matter (which
>was excellent) and pH. Two of those five are going to vary quite a bit
>over the season. It was a cheap test, but the results I got weren't
>worth the time and effort.
>
>I got some names of soil testing labs through ATTRA, and have identified
>ten labs that do more than NPK. Only two of them do not appear to be
>associated with one of the Albrecht-derivative firms that advertise in
>Acres U.S.A: University of Maine and MDS Harris. The number and mix of
>minerals that are tested for vary from firm to firm. I just checked one,
>and it tests for twelve minerals, not the 17 that you mentioned for
>plants, or even the 15 or so that Albrecht mentions.
>
>What's a farmer to do? It seems that I have to take some chaff with the
>wheat, and hope I can winnow it out on my own. I believe that those
>minor minerals are important, and I don't know how to get them balanced
>without going through Acres. They are the only resource I have right
>now.
>
>A minor quibble with the chart in "Has your soil got guts?": They
>shifted the axes on the graph, and read it off the unshifted axes. The
>elements that are in shortest supply are H, N & C, not N, P, S & C as
>stated. Shortage is indicated by maximum distance from the 45 degree
>(shifted) axis.
>
>I ordered "From the Soil Up" by Donald Schiefer, and am looking forward
>to learning more.
>
>If you were going to recommend any one book, or small set of books, for
>a farmer to study, what would you pick?
>
>
>

********************************************************

To unsubscribe from SANET-MG:
1- Visit http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html and unsubscribe by typing in your e-mail address or;
2- Send a message to <listserv@sare.org> from the address subscribed to the list. Type "unsubscribe sanet-mg" in the body of the message.

Visit the SANET-MG archives at: http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html


From - Sun Jan 18 15:40:00 2004
X-UIDL: 368607151
X-Mozilla-Status: 0010
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from mailserv1.intrex.net [209.42.192.236] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-8.04) id A7C663A8011C; Sun, 18 Jan 2004 15:08:38 -0500
Received: by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix)
	id F41FFB96C; Sun, 18 Jan 2004 15:08:38 -0500 (EST)
Delivered-To: lfl@intrex.net
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D75AFB948
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Sun, 18 Jan 2004 15:08:37 -0500 (EST)
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (lists.sare.org [128.227.242.235])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EEC8B8FB
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Sun, 18 Jan 2004 15:08:37 -0500 (EST)
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0004FECA@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; 18 Jan 2004 15:09:21 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 53416 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sun, 18 Jan 2004 15:09:20 -0500
Received: from imo-d03.mx.aol.com by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT
          v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0004FEC4@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; 18 Jan 2004
          15:09:20 -0500
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-d03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r4.12.)
          id d.193.24c7750d (2168) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sun, 18
          Jan 2004 15:08:09 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10503
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID:  <193.24c7750d.2d3c41a9@aol.com>
Date:         Sun, 18 Jan 2004 15:08:09 EST
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: help on a planting problem
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Virus-Scanned: by viruswatch at intrex.net
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@mail.intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 368607151

Dale gives some good suggestions.  Test and see what plants will be stunted
or prevented from growing.

But I would also get out there now, if possible, and enhance the biology that
will break down the toxics.

We've done a little work with several herbicides on golf and sports turf, in
the New York, New Jersey and Philadelphia areas, and if you are interested in
the data, I can pass your name on to the people who did the work, and they
will get back to you if they are interested.  Sorry, not in the scientific
literature and not ever likely to be.

Actively aerated compost tea was applied to the snow surface.  Improved
litter decomposition was observed after the snow melted.  Improved organism numbers
were observed on the litter and were apparently decomposing plant debris
under the snow, in the zone of free water under the insulation of snow.  This has
been reported several times in the scientific literature, the first report
that I am aware in a paper back in 1986.

Plant litter material was decomposing under the snow.  Herbicides had been
used on both the sports turf and the golf greens.  There was no noticable
herbicide residual impact in these turf areas the next spring.  Presumably the
herbicides had been degraded along with the plant litter material.

We did a study two years ago showing that dioxin was decomposed below
regulatory levels within two months of adding compost tea (we selected for a
diversity of organisms that were known to attack dioxin-like substrates).

So, using Actively Aerated Compost Tea suggests a possible approach to
reducing the herbicide.

But apply it now, at about 15 to 20 gal per acre, depending on how good the
tea is.  By good, I mean adequate biology in the tea.  Many herbicides are
broken down rapidly by a certain set of fungi (which do not grow on any plate
media that we know about), and we need to make sure those fungi are present in the
tea.  that means they need to be in the compost you use.  Chat with me about
where you find that kind of compost.

If you don't have a way to apply a liquid in the winter (application of a
water based material is "fun" when the temperature in below freezing), then wait
until the soil warms to 45 to 50 degrees, and apply 15 to 20 gal of the
compost tea to the soil surface.

Roll the seeds you want to plant in a combination of actively aerated compost
tea and mycorrhizal spores.  Some evidence that colonization of the roots of
the plants by the fungi will alleviate impacts of toxic material on the roots.
 Presumably, protection from the herbicide could occur.

Finally, application of the actively aerated compost tea to the foliage of
the plant, as suggested by a previous poster, might be beneficial in protecting
the plant from foliar problems, but you really need to start to decompose the
herbicide before the seeds go on the soil.

So, it may be possible to start the remediation effort now, during the
winter, if you have snow on the soil surface.  Otherwise, get the compost tea down
ASAP in the spring, at least two weeks before planting the seeds.  Use Dale's
suggestions to test to determine if the Actively Aerated Compost Tea actually
helped reduce a residual effect (soil without the tea, soil with the tea, plant
seeds of something that should be affected by the herbicide, and watch plant
growth).

You need biologically active, high fungal species diversity, aerobic compost
tea.  Please check the International Compost Tea Council website -
www.intlctc.com
is the website address, or check www.soilfoodweb.com   - we've just added a
whole new section on compost tea on the website.

Please let me know what happens!

Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
www.soilfoodweb.com
SFI Oregon, USA
SFI Australia
SFI New York
SFI Europe
SFI New Zealand

"Hope is not a feeling. It is not the belief that things will turn out well,
but the conviction that what we are doing makes sense, no matter how things
turn out."   --  Vaclav Havel, former President of the Czech Republic


********************************************************

To unsubscribe from SANET-MG:
1- Visit http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html and unsubscribe by typing in your e-mail address or;
2- Send a message to <listserv@sare.org> from the address subscribed to the list. Type "unsubscribe sanet-mg" in the body of the message.

Visit the SANET-MG archives at: http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html


From - Thu Jan 22 03:21:10 2004
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
FCC: mailbox://lfl@pop.intrex.net/Sent
X-Identity-Key: id4
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 03:21:10 -0800
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
Organization: http://market-farming.com  --  Venaura Farm
X-Mozilla-Draft-Info: internal/draft; vcard=0; receipt=0; uuencode=0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To:  lfl@intrex.net
Subject: Steve Diver:  Re: ACRES observations
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Date:         Fri, 16 Jan 2004 09:43:38 -0600
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
               <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
               <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Steve Diver <steved@NCAT.ORG>
Subject:      Re: ACRES observations
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

Hey, it was Carey Reams who used the terms anionic and cationic in a different manner than common usage in chemical textbooks.

But so what, Carey Reams was a clairovoyant medical doctor and chemistry genius who became an ecofarming advisor to raise nutritionally 
sound produce for humans.... since conventional produce had gotten so poor.

One of the large farms in California reduced their pesticide bill by half a million dollars after adopting the Reams fertility program.... 
since the Reams approach pays close to attention to healthy plants. I doubt the farm manager worried about terminology that "conformed", eh?

Neal Kinsey was a student of William Albrecht at Univ of Missouri, and thank goodness because Kinsey can teach the Albrecht soil test 
calcuations and explain the Albrecht soil fertility approach better than any book.

Don Schriefer has two books and they provide an excellent overview of the ecofarming approach to soil management. "From the Soil Up" and 
"Agriculture in Transition."

Gary Zimmer's book is really good, "The Biological Farmer", so are the booklets from Midwestern Bio-Ag: "Crop Pests and Fertilizers - Is 
There a Connection", "Roots - The Hidden Half".... so is their soil fertilty manual that explains Albrecht-style soil test interpretation in 
detail.

Steve Diver http://www.attra.ncat.org

Art Petrzelka wrote:

 >Thanks, Joel, for your critique. I appreciate the time that you took to >help meout. > >The chemistry and scientific method in Acres 
U.S.A. is atrocious if you >try to treat it as traditional chemistry. When reading Neal Kinsey's >Hand's on Agronomy, I had to suspend my 
prior assumptions of chemistry, >small as they are, so that I could try to understand what he was saying. >That group has its own 
terminology, which can unfortunately be mistaken >for chemistry. Kinsey's use of anion/cation, for instance, is contrary >to common usage. > 
 >Maybe I'm more amenable to this because of my education as an engineer. >We're used to warping science to fit practical matters. The 
Chemistry, >Math and Physics profs used to hate to teach us. They thought that we >were hopelessly inaccurate. :-) I almost said imprecise, 
because that >is the engineer's most feared fault. Precision over accuracy, that's our >game! > >But, back to chemistry, I don't know of any 
other game in town that >addresses the minor minerals. I got soil tests through the state >extension service last spring. All I get is NPK, 
organic matter (which >was excellent) and pH. Two of those five are going to vary quite a bit >over the season. It was a cheap test, but the 
results I got weren't >worth the time and effort. > >I got some names of soil testing labs through ATTRA, and have identified >ten labs that 
do more than NPK. Only two of them do not appear to be >associated with one of the Albrecht-derivative firms that advertise in >Acres U.S.A: 
University of Maine and MDS Harris. The number and mix of >minerals that are tested for vary from firm to firm. I just checked one, >and it 
tests for twelve minerals, not the 17 that you mentioned for >plants, or even the 15 or so that Albrecht mentions. > >What's a farmer to do? 
It seems that I have to take some chaff with the >wheat, and hope I can winnow it out on my own. I believe that those >minor minerals are 
important, and I don't know how to get them balanced >without going through Acres. They are the only resource I have right >now. > >A minor 
quibble with the chart in "Has your soil got guts?": They >shifted the axes on the graph, and read it off the unshifted axes. The >elements 
that are in shortest supply are H, N & C, not N, P, S & C as >stated. Shortage is indicated by maximum distance from the 45 degree 
 >(shifted) axis. > >I ordered "From the Soil Up" by Donald Schiefer, and am looking forward >to learning more. > >If you were going to 
recommend any one book, or small set of books, for >a farmer to study, what would you pick?
-- 
L.F.London
lfl@intrex.net
http://market-farming.com
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech

From - Thu Jan 22 03:16:19 2004
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
FCC: mailbox://lfl@pop.intrex.net/Sent
X-Identity-Key: id4
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 03:16:19 -0800
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
Organization: http://market-farming.com  --  Venaura Farm
X-Mozilla-Draft-Info: internal/draft; vcard=0; receipt=0; uuencode=0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To:  lfl@intrex.net
Subject: Steve Diver:  Black soldier fly larvae for organic waste bioconversion
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Date:         Wed, 21 Jan 2004 11:23:38 -0600
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
               <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
               <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         Steve Diver <steved@NCAT.ORG>
Subject:      Black soldier fly larvae for organic waste bioconversion
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

Black soldier fly larvae for organic waste bioconversion

1.

Dr. Paul Olivier with Engineering, Separation and Recycling LLC in Louisiana shared resources on black soldier fly larvae on the U.S. 
Compost Countil List.... USCC.

The Bio-Conversion of Putrescent Wastes with Black Soldier Fly Larvae http://www.esrla.com/brazil/frame.htm

Interestingly, he is author of.....

The Universe is One, Towards a Theory of Knowledge and Life by Paul A. Olivier http://www.amazon.com

2.

A collection of resources on BSF were posted on USCC in June 2003:

USCC Web Email Archives http://mailman.cloudnet.com/pipermail/compost/

2003-June Archives by Subject http://mailman.cloudnet.com/pipermail/compost/2003-June/subject.html

3.

Jacky Foo with Integrated Biosystems Network of IOBB hosted an electronic workshop on BSF. See the papers and discussion at:

Black Soldier Fly and Waste Recycling/Management http://segate.sunet.se/archives/et-jizo.html

Here is the agenda with papers:

Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 18:43:35 +0200 Sender: Insect Larvae in Organic Waste Recycling & Management <ET-JIZO @ SEGATE.SUNET.SE> From: 
List-administrator <foo@MUIENR.AC.UG> Subject: Papers for e-discussion http://segate.sunet.se/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind02&L=et-jizo&H=1&O=D&P=2300

-----Original Message----- From: Jacky Foo <foo@muienr.ac.ug>

I am happy to announce that the following materials are now available on the web and they will serve as discussion papers for the e-workshop 
(15 April to 17 May) on "Insect Larvae in Organic Waste Recycling and Management"

(1) Paul Olivier (USA). The Bio-Conversion of Putrescent Waste http://www.esrla.com/brasil/frame.htm Or http://www.esrla.com/pdf/Brazil.pdf

(2) Kevin Warburton & Vivienne Hallman (Australia). Processing of organic materials by the soldier fly, Hermetia illicens 
http://www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/Ras/01-174.pdf Page 118-129

(3) Craig Sheppard (USA). Black Soldier Fly and Others for Value-Added Manure Management Abstract: 
http://nespal.cpes.peachnet.edu/sustain/fly2.asp Full paper: http://nespal.cpes.peachnet.edu/sustain/ibs_conf.pdf

(4) Tran Tan Viet (Vietnam). Mass Production of Insect larvae http://www.esrla.com/tran/index.htm (under construction)

(5) Lylian Rodriguez, Siv Kong & Thomas R Preston (Cambodia). Insect larvae as recycling agents: an alternative for the conversion of 
organic wastes into high quality protein

4.

Electronic Forum on Area-Wide Integration of Specialized Crop and Livestock Production hosts a paper by Paul Olivier:

Larval Bio-conversion by Paul Olivier http://lead.virtualcentre.org/en/ele/awi_2000/particip/oliver.pdf

5.

Animal and Dairy Science at University of Georgia hosts a paper on BSF by Newton and Sheppard.

Soldier Fly Benefits: House Fly Control, Manure Volume Reduation, and Manure Nutrient Recycling G. L. Newton, D. C. Sheppard, S. A. 
Thompson, and S. I. Savage http://www.ads.uga.edu/annrpt/1995/95_311.htm

"A USDA Southern Region SARE/ACE grant (LS90-27, A Low Input Manure Management System in Animal Housing for House Fly Control, Waste 
Reduction and Feed Production) supported much of the research for this report."

Best regards,

Steve Diver http://www.attra.ncat.org
-- 
L.F.London
lfl@intrex.net
http://market-farming.com
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech

From - Fri Mar 26 13:43:53 2004
X-UIDL: 368613893
X-Mozilla-Status: 0000
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from mailserv1.intrex.net [209.42.192.236] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-8.04) id AFC3EB660128; Fri, 26 Mar 2004 11:52:19 -0500
Received: by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix)
	id 59438BEA0; Fri, 26 Mar 2004 11:52:19 -0500 (EST)
Delivered-To: lfl@intrex.net
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D778BE96
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Fri, 26 Mar 2004 11:52:19 -0500 (EST)
Received: from n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.93])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 62A09BDC7
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Fri, 26 Mar 2004 11:52:18 -0500 (EST)
X-eGroups-Return: sentto-7527208-7805-1080319937-lfl=intrex.net@returns.groups.yahoo.com
Received: from [66.218.67.197] by n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Mar 2004 16:52:18 -0000
X-Sender: steved@ncat.org
X-Apparently-To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Received: (qmail 42914 invoked from network); 26 Mar 2004 16:52:06 -0000
Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166)
  by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Mar 2004 16:52:06 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.83)
  by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Mar 2004 16:52:06 -0000
Received: from [66.218.67.129] by n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Mar 2004 16:51:53 -0000
To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Message-ID: <c41n35+aq3o@eGroups.com>
User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82
X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster
X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.83
From: "Steve Diver" <steved@ncat.org>
X-Originating-IP: 130.184.56.141
X-Yahoo-Profile: steved3602002
MIME-Version: 1.0
Mailing-List: list compost_tea@yahoogroups.com; contact compost_tea-owner@yahoogroups.com
Delivered-To: mailing list compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Precedence: bulk
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:compost_tea-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 16:51:49 -0000
Subject: [compost_tea] Observing Microbial Biofilms on Leaf Surfaces + Isolation of Culturable Microbes
Reply-To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Virus-Scanned: by viruswatch at intrex.net
X-SpamTest-AGR: Flagged AGR Test
X-Note: Total weight is 5. NOABUSE, SUBJSPACES-10, WEIGHT5
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@mail.intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 368613893

APPLIED AND ENVIRONMENTAL MICROBIOLOGY,
Apr. 1997, p. 1570=961576

Methods for Observing Microbial Biofilms Directly on Leaf Surfaces=20
and Recovering Them for=09

http://nature.berkeley.edu/icelab/jmm/aem97.pdf

CINDY E. MORRIS, JEAN-MICHEL MONIER, AND MARIE-AGNE`S JACQUES

Station de Pathologie Ve=B4ge=B4tale, INRA, Domaine St. Maurice,
France


ABSTRACT

Epifluorescence microscopy, scanning electron microscopy, and confocal
laser scanning microscopy were used to observe microbial biofilms
directly on leaf surfaces. Biofilms were observed on leaves of all
species sampled (spinach, lettuce, Chinese cabbage, celery, leeks,
basil, parsley, and broad-leaved endive), although the epifluorescent
images were clearest when pale green tissue or cuticle pieces were=20
used. With these techniques, biofilms were observed that were about=20
20 mm in depth and up to 1 mm in length and that contained copious
exopolymeric matrices, diverse morphotypes of microorganisms, and
debris. The epifluorescence techniques described here can be used to
rapidly determine the abundance and localization of biofilms on=20
leaves. An additional technique was developed to recover individual
biofilms or portions of single biofilms from leaves and to=20
disintegrate them for isolation of the culturable microorganisms=20
they contained. Nineteen biofilms from broad-leaved endive, spinach,
parsley, and olive leaves were thus isolated and characterized to
illustrate the applications of this technique.


Excerpts:


INTRODUCTION

It is well documented that leaves of herbaceous and woody
plants are colonized by numerous species of bacteria, yeasts,
and filamentous fungi...


In many environments, it is common to find assemblages of
microorganisms adherent to each other and/or to a surface and
embedded in a matrix of exopolymers (8). These assemblages
are referred to as biofilms...


(i) Biofilms are composed of an exopolymeric matrix and multiple=20
layers of microbial cells leading to the creation of physical=20
barriers and the establishment of chemical gradients. (ii) They
generally contain multiple species of microorganisms, fostering
metabolic and genetic exchange. (iii) Many biofilm cells are=20
attached to a surface...



MATERIALS AND METHODS

Plant material. Leaves were sampled from commercially produced=20
spinach (Spinacia oleracea), Battavian lettuce (Lactuca sativa),
Chinese cabbage (Brassica campestris subsp. pekinensis),=20
celery (Apium graveolens), leeks (Allium porrum), basil=20
(Ocimum basilicum), and parsley (Petroselinum crispum) purchased=20
at a local supermarket. Leaves of broad-leaved endive (Cichorium
endivia var. latifolia, cultivar Samy) were collected from mature
plants in experimental field plots cultivated as described=20
previously (18) in Montfavet, France, or purchased at a=20
supermarket...


Preparation of plant material for microscopic observation. Leaves=20
of all plants except parsley were cut into squares of approximately=20
1 by 1 cm. For some leaves of broad-leaved endive, the cuticle=20
was also peeled off. Parsley leaflets were cut off the petioles=20
but were not cut into pieces. For epifluorescence microscopy,=20
leaflets, leaf pieces, or cuticle pieces were soaked in a solution=20
of acridine orange (0.01% in acetate buffer [pH 4]) for 2 min,=20
rinsed twice in distilled water, set on microscope slides, and=20
observed with an Olympus BHS microscope (Olympus Optical, Co.,=20
Tokyo, Japan; light source model BH.RFL.W) under UV light=20
filtered through a blue filter...



RESULTS

In situ observation. Aggregates of microorganisms embedded
in an exopolymeric matrix were observed on all leaf material
stained with acridine orange and examined by epifluorescence
light microscopy, including broad-leaved endive (Fig.
1), spinach, lettuce, Chinese cabbage, celery, leeks, basil,=20
and parsley. Epifluorescence microscopic images of biofilms on
broad-leaved endive were of the best resolution either when
the cuticle was peeled from the leaf surface and mounted
under a coverslide (Fig. 1A) or when biofilms were located on
flat, etiolated portions of the leaf....


Biofilms were observed on all parts of the leaves (margin,
base, and upper and lower surfaces). In the case of broadleaved
endive, we observed about 100 biofilms. These biofilms
were found most often at the leaf base and were rarely on the
margin of green leaf tissue. About 90% of them were attached
to trichomes (Fig. 1A and C)....


SEM examination of leaf surfaces confirmed that biofilms
could be readily observed on naturally contaminated leaf=20
surfaces. Biofilms observed by SEM were as large as 1 mm=20
in length (Fig. 2) or were in networks extending for several
millimeters and were composed of a copious exopolymer matrix
and numerous microbial morphotypes resembling bacteria,=20
filamentous fungi, and yeasts as well as debris-like particles.



DISCUSSION

The techniques reported here permitted us to illustrate that
biofilms in the phyllosphere may be tens of micrometers thick,
may have a copious exopolymeric matrix, and may form extensive
networks several millimeters long....


The isolation technique described in this study allows for
collection of a wide range of bacteria and other microorganisms
coexisting in close physical proximity...


Using the technique presented here, we have illustrated that=20
diverse microorganisms, including both gram-positive and=20
gram-negative bacteria as well as yeasts and filamentous fungi,=20
may inhabit the same biofilm in the phyllosphere as has been=20
observed in other environments (4, 22, 28)...


The isolation technique we describe here will allow phyllosphere=20
ecologists to determine which microorganisms are frequently=20
associated in biofilms. This may lead to the identification of=20
saprophytic organisms that play a role in plant disease processes=20
incited by phytopathogenic organisms with which they are associated=20
or may help to explain mechanisms of genetic exchange observed
on leaf surfaces...


Characterization of the microbial components of individual=20
biofilms in the phyllosphere may lead to new hypotheses about=20
trophic interactions or chemical communication among these=20
organisms.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

SD comment:=20

Compost teas have significant influence on microorganism
populations in the rhizophere and phyllosphere.=20=20

While biofilms are problematic in compost tea brewers,=20
they are normal and beneficial in the phyllosphere.=20

This paper elucidates direct observation of phyllosphere
organisms, and alludes to culture methods to isolate=20
microorganisms.=20=20=20

Isolation of soil and compost microbes for identification
by gas chromatography, following by culturing of selected=20
beneficial strains in fermentation flasks, then adding back=20
into compost teas prior to field application, as a liquid=20
biological injection into irrigation lines, has been done=20
by Midwest BioSystems in conjunction with Agri-Energy
Resources Lab, for example.=20

Steve Diver



=20
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/compost_tea/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
     compost_tea-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
=20



From - Fri Mar 26 13:43:53 2004
X-UIDL: 368613893
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from mailserv1.intrex.net [209.42.192.236] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-8.04) id AFC3EB660128; Fri, 26 Mar 2004 11:52:19 -0500
Received: by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix)
	id 59438BEA0; Fri, 26 Mar 2004 11:52:19 -0500 (EST)
Delivered-To: lfl@intrex.net
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D778BE96
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Fri, 26 Mar 2004 11:52:19 -0500 (EST)
Received: from n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.93])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 62A09BDC7
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Fri, 26 Mar 2004 11:52:18 -0500 (EST)
X-eGroups-Return: sentto-7527208-7805-1080319937-lfl=intrex.net@returns.groups.yahoo.com
Received: from [66.218.67.197] by n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Mar 2004 16:52:18 -0000
X-Sender: steved@ncat.org
X-Apparently-To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Received: (qmail 42914 invoked from network); 26 Mar 2004 16:52:06 -0000
Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166)
  by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Mar 2004 16:52:06 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.83)
  by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Mar 2004 16:52:06 -0000
Received: from [66.218.67.129] by n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Mar 2004 16:51:53 -0000
To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Message-ID: <c41n35+aq3o@eGroups.com>
User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82
X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster
X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.83
From: "Steve Diver" <steved@ncat.org>
X-Originating-IP: 130.184.56.141
X-Yahoo-Profile: steved3602002
MIME-Version: 1.0
Mailing-List: list compost_tea@yahoogroups.com; contact compost_tea-owner@yahoogroups.com
Delivered-To: mailing list compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Precedence: bulk
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:compost_tea-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 16:51:49 -0000
Subject: [compost_tea] Observing Microbial Biofilms on Leaf Surfaces + Isolation of Culturable Microbes
Reply-To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Virus-Scanned: by viruswatch at intrex.net
X-SpamTest-AGR: Flagged AGR Test
X-Note: Total weight is 5. NOABUSE, SUBJSPACES-10, WEIGHT5
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@mail.intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 368613893

APPLIED AND ENVIRONMENTAL MICROBIOLOGY,
Apr. 1997, p. 1570=961576

Methods for Observing Microbial Biofilms Directly on Leaf Surfaces=20
and Recovering Them for=09

http://nature.berkeley.edu/icelab/jmm/aem97.pdf

CINDY E. MORRIS, JEAN-MICHEL MONIER, AND MARIE-AGNE`S JACQUES

Station de Pathologie Ve=B4ge=B4tale, INRA, Domaine St. Maurice,
France


ABSTRACT

Epifluorescence microscopy, scanning electron microscopy, and confocal
laser scanning microscopy were used to observe microbial biofilms
directly on leaf surfaces. Biofilms were observed on leaves of all
species sampled (spinach, lettuce, Chinese cabbage, celery, leeks,
basil, parsley, and broad-leaved endive), although the epifluorescent
images were clearest when pale green tissue or cuticle pieces were=20
used. With these techniques, biofilms were observed that were about=20
20 mm in depth and up to 1 mm in length and that contained copious
exopolymeric matrices, diverse morphotypes of microorganisms, and
debris. The epifluorescence techniques described here can be used to
rapidly determine the abundance and localization of biofilms on=20
leaves. An additional technique was developed to recover individual
biofilms or portions of single biofilms from leaves and to=20
disintegrate them for isolation of the culturable microorganisms=20
they contained. Nineteen biofilms from broad-leaved endive, spinach,
parsley, and olive leaves were thus isolated and characterized to
illustrate the applications of this technique.


Excerpts:


INTRODUCTION

It is well documented that leaves of herbaceous and woody
plants are colonized by numerous species of bacteria, yeasts,
and filamentous fungi...


In many environments, it is common to find assemblages of
microorganisms adherent to each other and/or to a surface and
embedded in a matrix of exopolymers (8). These assemblages
are referred to as biofilms...


(i) Biofilms are composed of an exopolymeric matrix and multiple=20
layers of microbial cells leading to the creation of physical=20
barriers and the establishment of chemical gradients. (ii) They
generally contain multiple species of microorganisms, fostering
metabolic and genetic exchange. (iii) Many biofilm cells are=20
attached to a surface...



MATERIALS AND METHODS

Plant material. Leaves were sampled from commercially produced=20
spinach (Spinacia oleracea), Battavian lettuce (Lactuca sativa),
Chinese cabbage (Brassica campestris subsp. pekinensis),=20
celery (Apium graveolens), leeks (Allium porrum), basil=20
(Ocimum basilicum), and parsley (Petroselinum crispum) purchased=20
at a local supermarket. Leaves of broad-leaved endive (Cichorium
endivia var. latifolia, cultivar Samy) were collected from mature
plants in experimental field plots cultivated as described=20
previously (18) in Montfavet, France, or purchased at a=20
supermarket...


Preparation of plant material for microscopic observation. Leaves=20
of all plants except parsley were cut into squares of approximately=20
1 by 1 cm. For some leaves of broad-leaved endive, the cuticle=20
was also peeled off. Parsley leaflets were cut off the petioles=20
but were not cut into pieces. For epifluorescence microscopy,=20
leaflets, leaf pieces, or cuticle pieces were soaked in a solution=20
of acridine orange (0.01% in acetate buffer [pH 4]) for 2 min,=20
rinsed twice in distilled water, set on microscope slides, and=20
observed with an Olympus BHS microscope (Olympus Optical, Co.,=20
Tokyo, Japan; light source model BH.RFL.W) under UV light=20
filtered through a blue filter...



RESULTS

In situ observation. Aggregates of microorganisms embedded
in an exopolymeric matrix were observed on all leaf material
stained with acridine orange and examined by epifluorescence
light microscopy, including broad-leaved endive (Fig.
1), spinach, lettuce, Chinese cabbage, celery, leeks, basil,=20
and parsley. Epifluorescence microscopic images of biofilms on
broad-leaved endive were of the best resolution either when
the cuticle was peeled from the leaf surface and mounted
under a coverslide (Fig. 1A) or when biofilms were located on
flat, etiolated portions of the leaf....


Biofilms were observed on all parts of the leaves (margin,
base, and upper and lower surfaces). In the case of broadleaved
endive, we observed about 100 biofilms. These biofilms
were found most often at the leaf base and were rarely on the
margin of green leaf tissue. About 90% of them were attached
to trichomes (Fig. 1A and C)....


SEM examination of leaf surfaces confirmed that biofilms
could be readily observed on naturally contaminated leaf=20
surfaces. Biofilms observed by SEM were as large as 1 mm=20
in length (Fig. 2) or were in networks extending for several
millimeters and were composed of a copious exopolymer matrix
and numerous microbial morphotypes resembling bacteria,=20
filamentous fungi, and yeasts as well as debris-like particles.



DISCUSSION

The techniques reported here permitted us to illustrate that
biofilms in the phyllosphere may be tens of micrometers thick,
may have a copious exopolymeric matrix, and may form extensive
networks several millimeters long....


The isolation technique described in this study allows for
collection of a wide range of bacteria and other microorganisms
coexisting in close physical proximity...


Using the technique presented here, we have illustrated that=20
diverse microorganisms, including both gram-positive and=20
gram-negative bacteria as well as yeasts and filamentous fungi,=20
may inhabit the same biofilm in the phyllosphere as has been=20
observed in other environments (4, 22, 28)...


The isolation technique we describe here will allow phyllosphere=20
ecologists to determine which microorganisms are frequently=20
associated in biofilms. This may lead to the identification of=20
saprophytic organisms that play a role in plant disease processes=20
incited by phytopathogenic organisms with which they are associated=20
or may help to explain mechanisms of genetic exchange observed
on leaf surfaces...


Characterization of the microbial components of individual=20
biofilms in the phyllosphere may lead to new hypotheses about=20
trophic interactions or chemical communication among these=20
organisms.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

SD comment:=20

Compost teas have significant influence on microorganism
populations in the rhizophere and phyllosphere.=20=20

While biofilms are problematic in compost tea brewers,=20
they are normal and beneficial in the phyllosphere.=20

This paper elucidates direct observation of phyllosphere
organisms, and alludes to culture methods to isolate=20
microorganisms.=20=20=20

Isolation of soil and compost microbes for identification
by gas chromatography, following by culturing of selected=20
beneficial strains in fermentation flasks, then adding back=20
into compost teas prior to field application, as a liquid=20
biological injection into irrigation lines, has been done=20
by Midwest BioSystems in conjunction with Agri-Energy
Resources Lab, for example.=20

Steve Diver



=20
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/compost_tea/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
     compost_tea-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
=20



From - Sat Mar 27 02:31:04 2004
X-UIDL: 368613937
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from mailserv1.intrex.net [209.42.192.236] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-8.04) id AE24259E00E6; Sat, 27 Mar 2004 01:24:36 -0500
Received: by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix)
	id 86761AEAC; Sat, 27 Mar 2004 01:24:36 -0500 (EST)
Delivered-To: lfl@intrex.net
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69DE6AEA8
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Sat, 27 Mar 2004 01:24:36 -0500 (EST)
Received: from n33.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n33.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.101])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 80A0DAE5E
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Sat, 27 Mar 2004 01:24:35 -0500 (EST)
X-eGroups-Return: sentto-7527208-7807-1080368674-lfl=intrex.net@returns.groups.yahoo.com
Received: from [66.218.67.193] by n33.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Mar 2004 06:24:34 -0000
X-Sender: steved@ncat.org
X-Apparently-To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Received: (qmail 40897 invoked from network); 27 Mar 2004 06:24:33 -0000
Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217)
  by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Mar 2004 06:24:33 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.72)
  by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Mar 2004 06:24:33 -0000
Received: from [66.218.67.180] by n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Mar 2004 06:24:31 -0000
To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Message-ID: <c436mu+t09l@eGroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <c42i56+oigr@eGroups.com>
User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82
X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster
X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.72
From: "Steve Diver" <steved@ncat.org>
X-Originating-IP: 130.184.56.141
X-Yahoo-Profile: steved3602002
MIME-Version: 1.0
Mailing-List: list compost_tea@yahoogroups.com; contact compost_tea-owner@yahoogroups.com
Delivered-To: mailing list compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Precedence: bulk
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:compost_tea-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 06:24:30 -0000
Subject: [compost_tea] Re: Observing Microbial Biofilms on Leaf Surfaces + Isolation of Culturable Micr
Reply-To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Virus-Scanned: by viruswatch at intrex.net
X-SpamTest-AGR: Flagged AGR Test
X-Note: Total weight is 5. NOABUSE, SUBJSPACES-10, WEIGHT5
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@mail.intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 368613937

Hi Bob -

SFI uses fluorescein diacetate (FDA) in combination with 
epifluorescent microscopy to measure active microbial
biomass, and a range of microscopy methods for all the
different parameters they measure.  Elaine can provide exact 
details.   

Elaine's methodologies were developd through graduate and 
post-graduate research going back to early 1980s.

See a bibliography of her papers at:

Sunburst Nominees with SFI | Australia
http://www.sunnom.com.au/sfi/members.htm


For example: 

Ingham, E. R., and D. A. Klein. 1984. Soil fungi: relationships
between hyphal activity and staining with fluorescein
diacetate. Soil Biology and Biochemistry 16:273-278. 

Ingham, E.R. and D.A. Klein. (1984). Soil fungi: Measurement 
of hyphal length. Soil Biol. Biochem. 16:279-280.

Stamatiadis, S., J.W. Doran and E.R. Ingham. (1990). Use of 
staining and inhibitors to separate fungal and bacterial 
activity in soil. Soil Biol. Biochem. 22:81-88.


Mary Appelhof published an article in WormEzine (August 2003) 
that summarized the SFI lab techniques:

"Another capability that Dr. Ingham has is to determine which 
cells are active at the time the lab receives the samples. 
Many bacteria, protozoa, and fungi would be in a dormant 
or inactive state. Others are actively metabolizing at the 
time they make the preparation. By adding fluorescein diacetate 
(FDA) to the preparations, any cell whose mitochondria are 
active take up the FDA. When the technicians look at the sample 
using ultraviolet light with the microscope, the active cells 
show up a bright fluorescent yellow/green. By using a dark 
field on the microscope the bright yellow-green cells show up 
very readily, enabling the viewer to ascertain the number 
of active bacteria, fungi, or protozoa as compared with the 
total numbers or hyphal length." 

Etc... keep reading, this article provides an excellent 
summary of SFI procedures. 

WormEzine Vol. 2, No. 7
August 2003
http://www.wormwoman.com/acatalog/WormEzine_2-7.pdf


FDA and acridine orange (used in the French study) are 
fluorochromes. There's a whole bunch of the fluorochromes.

See:

Nikon Microscopy: Yellow Fluorescent Protein (YFP) Filter Set
http://www.microscopyu.com/articles/fluorescence/f
iltercubes/yfp/yfphome.html

Fluorochromes and recommended filter pairs
http://www.mtxlsi.com/fluorofilters.htm


Regards,

Steve Diver 



--- In compost_tea@yahoogroups.com, "bobkacalek" <bob@s...> wrote:
> Hi Steve,
> Thanks for sharing, very interesting.
> The advantage of quality ACT is the abundance of diversity in Micro-
> organisms delivered vs one or two specific cultures. 
> Are the methods described (Epifluorescence microscopy, scanning 
> electron microscopy, and confocal laser scanning microscopy were
used 
> to observe microbial biofilms directly on leaf surfaces)similar to 
> methods used by SFI?  Maybe Dr. E will respond?
> Thanks Again,
> bob 
> 
> 



------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com.  Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/0PSxlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

 
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/compost_tea/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
     compost_tea-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 



From - Thu Apr 01 14:21:04 2004
X-UIDL: 368614296
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from mailserv1.intrex.net [209.42.192.236] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-8.04) id A65FC12900B0; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 13:58:39 -0500
Received: by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix)
	id 6976DD2E8; Thu,  1 Apr 2004 13:58:39 -0500 (EST)
Delivered-To: lfl@intrex.net
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D2D3D2DC
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Thu,  1 Apr 2004 13:58:39 -0500 (EST)
Received: from intrex.net (client230-16.dsl.intrex.net [209.42.230.16])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8944D2A4
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Thu,  1 Apr 2004 13:58:37 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <406C95BC.8010505@intrex.net>
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 14:20:44 -0800
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
Organization: http://market-farming.com  --  Venaura Farm
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: lfl@intrex.net
Subject: Workshops:  "gil carandang", "indigenous microorganisms"
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Virus-Scanned: by viruswatch at intrex.net
X-Note: Total weight is 0. Whitelisted
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@mail.intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 368614296



Date:         Sat, 13 Mar 2004 09:08:16 +0000
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
               <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
               <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         gil carandang <gil_carandang@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Tilth Apprentice Placement Service Updated for 2004
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

in a few weeks i will be posting our apprenticeship in tropical organic agriculture at herbana farms in the philippines. it is a six-month 
program with special focus on natural farming technology. i'll send more details later. thanks, gil carandang herbana farms philippines 
 >From: Chrys Ostrander <chrys@THEFUTUREISORGANIC.NET> >Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group 
 ><SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU> >To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU >Subject: [SANET-MG] Tilth Apprentice Placement Service Updated for 2004 
 >Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 14:19:40 -0800 > >Tilth Producers is Washington State's Organic and Sustainable growers' >Organization. Each year 
it publishes the Tilth Apprentice Placement Service >Listing as a way for folks seeking work experience on organic and >sustainable farms to 
connect with farmers seeking apprentices. > >I have just updated the Placement Service listings for 2004 on the Tilth >Producers website: 
 >http://www.tilthproducers.org. > >Seventy-four farms are listed and their apprentice position openings are >described. Check it out today! 
 > >The actual apprenticeship arrangement will be made directly between the >participating farms and apprentices. As such, the Tilth 
Placement Service >and the Tilth Producers organization cannot guarantee the satisfaction of >the farmers or the apprentices. > >Yours 
truly, >Chrys Ostrander >Web Designer for Tilth Producers ><mailto:webweaver@tilthproducers.org> > 
 >******************************************************** > >To unsubscribe from SANET-MG: >1- Visit 
http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html and unsubscribe by >typing in your e-mail address or; >2- Send a message to <listserv@sare.org> 
from the address subscribed to the >list. Type "unsubscribe sanet-mg" in the body of the message. > >Visit the SANET-MG archives at: 
 >http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail 
with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ******************************************************** To 
unsubscribe from SANET-MG: 1- Visit http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html and unsubscribe by typing in your e-mail address or; 2- 
Send a message to <listserv@sare.org> from the address subscribed to the list. Type "unsubscribe sanet-mg" in the body of the message. Visit 
the SANET-MG archives at: http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html

Back to: Top of message | Previous page | Main SANET-MG page

LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU	



Date:         Tue, 30 Mar 2004 10:46:24 +0000
Reply-To:     Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
               <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender:       Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
               <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From:         gil carandang <gil_carandang@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: your input needed
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

you might be interested on an in-depth workshop on indigenous microorganisms, grow your own -- beneficial indigenous microorganisms and 
bionutrients in natural farming. i did two workshops years 2003 and 2004 for ecofarm conference in monterey, california and did several 
one-day workshops in california. you may search "gil carandang", "indigenous microorganisms". let me know and i can tailor a workshop on the 
subject which participants will actually learn how to culture these beneficial indigenous microorganisms, empowering farmers. thanks, gil 
carandang herbana farms philippines >From: Maura McDermott <maura@OKLATEL.NET> >Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group 
 ><SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU> >To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU >Subject: [SANET-MG] your input needed >Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 13:16:55 
-0600 > >Fall Workshops: Your Input Needed > >The Kerr Center is planning The Future Farms 2004 conference for November, >and we need your 
help. > >In the past, many of our conference attendees have indicated they would >like >more in-depth information than can be conveyed in an 
hour-long session on >topics that would help them start a new farm enterprise or sustainably >manage existing crops/livestock. So we are 
planning a conference that will >consist of several in-depth, day or half-day workshops on topics of >interest >to small scale 
farmers/ranchers in Oklahoma and adjoining states who might >attend. > >We need you to let us know what topic or topics you would like to 
see >covered in a workshop. Below are a list of possibilities, gleaned from past >conference evaluations. >PLEASE FEEL FREE TO ADD YOUR OWN 
IDEA/TOPIC. > >Print this form and mail to: Maura McDermott, Kerr Center, PO Box 588 >Poteau, OK 74953 >Or you may easily email us your 
suggestions from our web site >www.kerrcenter.com-- this form is online there. Please contact us by May >1. > >Possible Workshop Topics 
(Please check) > > >Organic _____________(name crops) >__production >__marketing > >__Building healthy soil > >__Season Extension Ideas > 
 >__Rotational/Cell grazing > >__Growing “ethnic” crops > >__CSAs/Subscription Farming > >__Agritourism > >__Raising heritage breeds of 
livestock > >__Grass-fed beef >__production >__processing/marketing > >__Natural beef >__production >__processing/ marketing > >__Organic 
beef >__production >__processing/marketing > >__Financing alternative enterprises > >__Business/record keeping for farm enterprises > 
 >__Grants for farmers > >__Herbs >__production >__marketing > >__Honey: >__production >__marketing > >__Cut flowers >__production > 
__marketing > >__Farmers’ markets: > __how to start > __selling at > >__Producing/selling to schools and institutions > 
 >OTHER_______________________________________________________________________ > 
 >____________________________________________________________________________ > 
 >____________________________________________________________________________ > >___________________________________________ > >Instructors 
you would like to hear? > >____________________________________________________________________________ >__ > > >Your name, address 
(optional) > > > >Maura McDermott >Communications Director >Kerr Center for Sustainable Agriculture >PO Box 588 >Poteau, OK 74953 
 >918.647.9123 >www.kerrcenter.com > >"There is one thing stronger than all the armies in the world: and that is >an idea whose time has 
come." --Victor Hugo > >******************************************************** > >To unsubscribe from SANET-MG: >1- Visit 
http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html and unsubscribe by >typing in your e-mail address or; >2- Send a message to <listserv@sare.org> 
from the address subscribed to the >list. Type "unsubscribe sanet-mg" in the body of the message. > >Visit the SANET-MG archives at: 
 >http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam 
protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ******************************************************** To 
unsubscribe from SANET-MG: 1- Visit http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html and unsubscribe by typing in your e-mail address or; 2- 
Send a message to <listserv@sare.org> from the address subscribed to the list. Type "unsubscribe sanet-mg" in the body of the message. Visit 
the SANET-MG archives at: http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html

Back to: Top of message | Previous page | Main SANET-MG page

LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU	

-- 
L.F.London
lfl@intrex.net
http://market-farming.com
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech



From - Mon Apr 12 11:43:03 2004
X-UIDL: 368615063
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv1.intrex.net [209.42.192.236] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-8.04) id A31881D600E0; Mon, 12 Apr 2004 10:09:28 -0400
Received: by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix)
	id A03A4AB87; Mon, 12 Apr 2004 10:09:28 -0400 (EDT)
Delivered-To: lfl@intrex.net
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A43DAB82
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Mon, 12 Apr 2004 10:09:28 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.78])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 44DDFA9D1
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Mon, 12 Apr 2004 10:09:27 -0400 (EDT)
X-eGroups-Return: sentto-7527208-8033-1081778965-lfl=intrex.net@returns.groups.yahoo.com
Received: from [66.218.67.192] by n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Apr 2004 14:09:26 -0000
X-Sender: Soilfoodweb@aol.com
X-Apparently-To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Received: (qmail 18157 invoked from network); 12 Apr 2004 14:09:23 -0000
Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172)
  by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Apr 2004 14:09:23 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m22.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.3)
  by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Apr 2004 14:09:23 -0000
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com
	by imo-m22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r1.2.) id r.117.314dc846 (15901)
	 for <compost_tea@yahoogroups.com>; Mon, 12 Apr 2004 10:09:10 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from  aol.com (mow-m15.webmail.aol.com [64.12.180.131]) by air-id09.mx.aol.com (v98.19) with ESMTP id MAILINID94-3e1d407aa306263; Mon, 12 Apr 2004 10:09:10 -0500
To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Message-ID: <25F91835.2B72567B.404D8829@aol.com>
X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0
X-AOL-IP: 24.21.158.7
X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.3
From: soilfoodweb@aol.com
X-Yahoo-Profile: soilfoodweb
MIME-Version: 1.0
Mailing-List: list compost_tea@yahoogroups.com; contact compost_tea-owner@yahoogroups.com
Delivered-To: mailing list compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Precedence: bulk
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:compost_tea-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 10:09:10 -0400
Subject: Re: [compost_tea] numbers
Reply-To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Virus-Scanned: by viruswatch at intrex.net
X-Note: Total weight is 1. NOABUSE
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@mail.intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 368615063

<html><body>


<tt>
Hi Anthony -&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
I'm out of time!&nbsp; But here's a first pass at the explanation for you!&nbsp; Back in two weeks!<BR>
<BR>
Numbers of individuals in soil.&nbsp; OK, here goes.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
That's not possible to say, really, for fungi.&nbsp; A fungal individual is difficult to know for certain.&nbsp; Plate counts mess up on that measurement - in general, plate counts give you &quot;how many spores of fungi and pieces of hyphal strands were the fungi broken into when you shook your sample&quot;, which isn't really a useful piece of information.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Colony forming units - CFU - do not tell you if the fungal propagule was a spore, a tiny piece of hypha, or a mat of hyphae.&nbsp; You need to do biomass, that's all there is to it, when you are dealing with fungi.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Especially when you want to compare fungi and bacteria, comparing numbers is just plain nonsense.&nbsp; We could tell you how many individual strands of fungi are present in soil, but that is dependent on whether the soil was just plowed, or not.&nbsp; Doesn't relate to anything useful.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
But what about bacteria?&nbsp; Bacteria clump together, they like to form colonies.&nbsp; Just like people.&nbsp; People clump together in villages, towns, cities, etc..&nbsp; The group helps each individual better.&nbsp; Think of a bacterial colony as being like a neighborhood of similar ethnic people.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Plate count approaches cannot separate all the colonies into the individuals, so plate counts always underestimate the actual number of individuals - but you don't know by how much.&nbsp; How many colonies were broken up when you shook your soil sample in buffer?&nbsp; How many were not, or were partially broken up? don't know.&nbsp; So, what are you getting when you run a plate count?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
In direct microscopy, we count the individual bacteria that we can see, including the bacteria in colonies, measure length and width, and then using the typical density of bacteria in soil, determined over the years by lots of testing and which varies from soil to soil, season to season, we can determine biomass of bacteria in soil.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
We are working on differences in bacterial and fungial densities in the rhizosphere of different agricultural plants right now, so that will be put into the data that will be used to fine-tune the SFI report based on each plant that you tell us has been growing in the area you want to know about.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
A good test for a lab that says they are doing direct measurements, but are perhaps not actually giving good data because they don't work with the person who developed the direct microscopic techniques they purport to use, is to ask them how they figured out density of bacteria and fungi in soil.&nbsp; What values do they use in their spread sheets, and how those values change with season.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
SFI labs direct that question to me, because I developed the knowledge.&nbsp; Sharing that knowledge, having someone able to understand that level of seasonal change, and understand how to do the assessment, generally takes a minimum of Ph.D. in microbiology.&nbsp; So, yes, other academics can tell you the reason you need to pay attention to this, but only by working with SFI labs will you get the knowledge that has already worked that one out.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
People who stopped by SFI and spent a week, or even a couple years, &quot;training&quot; with SF were not given this information.&nbsp; They can't explain where each value in our spread sheets comes from, and of course, that's critical in order to change the seasonal parameters, the plant parameters, that need to be changed.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Anyway, on to the numbers.&nbsp; We explain numbers versus biomass in SFI courses, so, if this discussion is a bit too much, please come to one of those classes.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Bacteria generally run about 1 million per gram (about a teaspoon) of dry weight of soil in conventional agricultural soil.&nbsp; Typically a plate count will overestimate the actual numbers of bacterial individuals, because the plate count will include dormant stages of bacteria, not just the active bacterial cells.&nbsp; That's a problem.&nbsp; If the information you need is - how many functioning cells in my soil - then you cannot get that knowledge from a plate count.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Bacterial numbers in HEALTHY agricultural soil, healthy defined by the plant can grow without pesticides or inorganic fertilizer to help it survive (not on drugs, if you will) are typically about 600 million per gram dry weight of soil.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Numbers of bacteria per gram in a conventional lawn, maintained by a chemical service?&nbsp; You may have only disease - causers, and you may have only a few thousand per gram.&nbsp; Pesticides kill things.&nbsp; Oh, surprise.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
In a healthy lawn, which is disease-free, so not requiring any pesticides, we can find up to 2,000 million bacteria per gram of soil.&nbsp; But that better be balanced by a fungal biomass to balance nitrogen in a proper ratio to grow your perennial grasses.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
The proper biology does that for you.&nbsp; You must get the ratio of fungi to bacteria correct, for the plant you want to grow, or you may be setting the stage to grow weeds better than the plant you want to grow.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
If that statement confused you, it may be time to come to an SFI class.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
In a field of soil (about 2 million lbs of soil in the top ten inches in an acre of soil), that's well into the billions of individuals of bacteria, and possibly fungi.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
You need to be very careful when someone is talking about numbers of individuals of bacteria or fungi that you get the units correct.&nbsp; Did they say billions of individuals per gram of ag soil?&nbsp; Then they are not correct.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Did they say billions of individuals per gram soil in an old growth forest?&nbsp; They are correct.&nbsp; How productive a system are you talking about?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
If they say billions of individuals in an ag FIELD, then they MAY be correct.&nbsp; In an old growth forest stand of trees?&nbsp; They are being too conservative.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
And that's just bacteria and fungi.&nbsp; what about protozoa?&nbsp; Add them in.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Nematodes?&nbsp; Microarthropods?&nbsp; You CANNOT have a healthy old growth forest without several hundred thousand microarthropods doing their thing, during the right times of the year.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Seasonal processes going on there, and we need to make sure they are there, in order to have a healthy forest.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Much to understand.&nbsp; But not impossible, nor even all that complex, if you get an understanding of how it all works together.&nbsp; There's a great deal of &quot;well, of course that's how it works&quot;, once you have someone explain the functions of the different critters for you.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Elaine Ingham<BR>
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.<BR>
SFI Corvallis, OR<BR>
SFI Port Jefferson, NY<BR>
SFI Lismore, NSW, Australia<BR>
SFI Hilversum, The Netherlands<BR>
SFI Cambridge, New Zealand<BR>
SFI Culiacan, Mexico<BR>
SFI Jerome, Idaho<BR>
<a href="http://www.soilfoodweb.com">http://www.soilfoodweb.com</a><BR>
</tt>




<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->

<br>
<tt><hr width="500">
<b>Yahoo! Groups Links</b><br>
<ul>
<li>To visit your group on the web, go to:<br><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/compost_tea/">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/compost_tea/</a><br>&nbsp;
<li>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<br><a href="mailto:compost_tea-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe">compost_tea-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</a><br>&nbsp;
<li>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms of Service</a>.
</ul>
</tt>
</br>

<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->


</body></html>



From - Mon Apr 12 23:44:06 2004
X-UIDL: 368615124
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from mailserv1.intrex.net [209.42.192.236] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-8.04) id A80F35110120; Mon, 12 Apr 2004 23:01:35 -0400
Received: by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix)
	id A8D60C27F; Mon, 12 Apr 2004 23:01:35 -0400 (EDT)
Delivered-To: lfl@intrex.net
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DDE3C26C
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Mon, 12 Apr 2004 23:01:35 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from intrex.net (client230-16.dsl.intrex.net [209.42.230.16])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1E5DBE0F
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Mon, 12 Apr 2004 23:01:33 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <407B8781.8070600@intrex.net>
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 23:24:01 -0700
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
Organization: http://market-farming.com  --  Venaura Farm
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: lfl@intrex.net
Subject: Cultivating diversity underground for better yields above  - http://www.newfarm.org/depts/NFfield_trials/0903/daviddouds.shtml
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Virus-Scanned: by viruswatch at intrex.net
X-Note: Total weight is 0. Whitelisted
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@mail.intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 368615124

  http://www.newfarm.org/depts/NFfield_trials/0903/daviddouds.shtml

Cultivating diversity underground for better yields above
Research at The Rodale Institute® demonstrates how sustainable farming practices can boost yields by nurturing beneficial soil fungi.

By Laura Sayre



About this series:

As some of you may know, The Rodale Institute®, which publishes The New Farm®, is home to the longest running field trials in the country 
comparing organic and conventional systems of farming called The Rodale Institute Farming Systems Trial® (FST). The data from that 23 years 
of research is a real treasure trove of insight into the economic, ecological and agronomic benefits of organic farming.

In addition to this long-running Farming Systems Trial, we have a variety of other research in progress at The Institute. David Douds, as 
you’ll read in this story, has been studying soil fungi here at The Institute’s research farm for 15 years. We’re engaged in no-till 
research, weed research, compost tea research, composting research, water quality research, and much more.

Until now, much of the light we’re generating here on our research farm has been hidden under the proverbial barrel, but we’re taking off 
the barrel and busting it up for firewood. We’re going let the light of the amazing research being done here shine on farmers, consumers and 
environmental activities.

Over the next year we’ll be running a series of stories, about one a month, on the significance of our research ... and its practical 
applications. That includes a few stories on equipment construction—a front-mounted roller for no-till, and a compost turner converted from 
a junked 18-wheeler.

So sit tight, and be prepared to be amazed, starting with David Douds’ discoveries about how you can increase vegetable yields by 50 percent 
using homemade fungal inoculants.

Enjoy,

Chris Hill
Executive Editor

p.s. Interested in hearing more about how you can take part in the mycorrhizae revolution? Click here and let us know. Send your name, phone 
number and e-mail address with your note so we can follow-up with you.







	"Overall, Douds’ work suggests that a small amount of mixed MF inoculant can be substituted for a large amount of fertilizer--with no loss 
of yield, greatly reduced environmental impact, and lower production costs."


	Home-grown mycorrhizal inoculum can be produced at a fraction of the cost of purchasing commercial mixes. "I've done some preliminary 
calculations," says Douds. "The on-farm system produces 100 million propagules for approximately $50, not counting the cost of the farmer's 
labor, which is fairly minimal. To purchase 100 million propagules as listed on the bag of some commercial mixes would cost anywhere from 
$8,000 to $40,000."
		


FACT SHEET: Mycorrhizae
	

Above: USDA soil microbiologist David Douds with a carrot root-mycorrhizal fungi culture. Under the leadership of Dr. Douds, field trials 
have shown yield gains of as much as 50% in the presence of healthy mycorrhizae populations. Now Douds is developing a practical, low-cost 
method for on-farm production of mycorrhizal soil innoculant, promising higher yields with lower nutrient inputs. (Photo by Peggy Greb, 
courtesy of the Agricultural Research Service Photo Unit.)

September 29, 2003: You've read the amazing facts and figures: one teaspoon of healthy topsoil can contain millions of individual 
microorganisms, all playing a part in the functioning of the soil ecosystem. But how much do you really know about the action of those 
diverse species and how to maximize their presence in your own fields?

Ongoing research at The Rodale Institute® sheds light on one important component of the soil community--mycorrhizal fungi--and its impact on 
agricultural production. Under the leadership of Dr. David Douds, a soil microbiologist with the USDA's Agricultural Research Service, field 
trials have shown yield gains of as much as 50% in the presence of healthy mycorrhizae populations. Now Douds is developing a practical, 
low-cost method for on-farm production of mycorrhizal soil inoculant, promising higher yields with lower nutrient inputs.

A mycorrhizal primer

Mycorrhizae are soil-dwelling fungi that live in and around the roots of plants ('myco-rrhizae' means 'fungus-root'). The fungi and the 
plants form mutually beneficial associations in which the fungi receive carbohydrates from the plants and the plants receive nutrients and 
other benefits from the fungi. Since the first mycorrhizae species were described by a German botanist in the 1880s, researchers have 
discovered that approximately 80% of all land plants form mycorrhizal associations. The relationship is so widespread, in fact, that it is 
sometimes referred to as 'the Universal Symbiosis,' and is believed to have played a key role in the evolutionary transition from aquatic to 
terrestrial plant forms.

Today, scientists divide mycorrhizae into two major types: endomycorrhizae, which penetrate and colonize plant roots, and ectomycorrhizae, 
which form sheaths around plant roots. Whereas ectomycorrhizal relationships tend to be highly specialized--with some 6000 fungal species 
worldwide associated with tree species of the oak, beech, and pine families, among others--endomycorrhizal associations are more generalized 
as well as more widespread, with fewer than 150 fungal species opportunistically colonizing the roots of the vast majority of terrestrial 
plant families. Ectomycorrhizal inoculants are already widely used in commercial forestry, but the possibility of developing endomycorrhizal 
inoculants for production agriculture is a more recent idea.

"These are beneficial soil fungi that colonize the roots of plants and help them take up phosphorus" and other immobile soil nutrients, such 
as zinc and copper, Douds explains. "The fungus colonizes the root and it also grows out into the soil; the part of the fungus that's in the 
soil acts as an extension of the root system, to explore a greater volume of soil and take up nutrients and bring them back into the root."

In addition to facilitating nutrient uptake, some mycorrhizae secrete a gluey substance, called glomalin, which helps develop soil structure 
and soil aggregation; others may help plants fight disease. Yet because endomycorrhizae are 'obligate symbionts'--they must have living 
plant roots to colonize in order to complete their life cycle--their numbers will decline under conventional agricultural monocultures, 
which have living crop covers fewer months of the year than organic rotations. The drop in yields typically seen after the first year of 
cultivation on virgin prairie or forest soils is probably attributable in part to the loss of native mycorrhizae, Douds says.

Fifteen years of research prove benefits of fungi

Douds has been conducting research in collaboration with The Rodale Institute since 1989, his first year at the Agricultural Research 
Service's Eastern Regional Research Center in Wyndmoor, on the outskirts of Philadelphia. "Some employees of The Institute farm came down to 
our research center as part of a kind of an interagency show-and-tell about research programs and facilities and what all we could do to 
help each other," Douds recalls. "Rhonda Janke"--The Institute's research agronomist at the time--"gave a presentation about The Rodale 
Institute Farming Systems Trial," a side-by-side comparison of organic and conventional production systems. Douds recognized it as a great 
opportunity to study endomycorrhizal associations.

"Later that year I started sampling, and right off learned that [the soils under] the conventional farming systems had fewer mycorrhizal 
fungi than the soils under the low-input farming systems. So right away we all got excited and we branched out from there."

Since that first season, Douds' work at The Rodale Institute’s 333-acre experimental farm has progressed in three overlapping phases:

In the first phase, from 1989 to 1995, Douds and his team surveyed native mycorrhizal fungi (MF) populations at Rodale and examined the 
impact of different agricultural practices--including tillage regimes, crop rotations, and soil amendments--on those populations. The second 
phase, which is still ongoing, looks at the utilization of MF by crop plants, comparing yields in the presence and absence of different MF 
species. The third phase seeks to apply those findings by devising a simple, on-farm MF inoculum production system, so that farmers can 
harness the benefits of endomycorrhizae without spending lots of money on commercial mixes. (Commercial products already on the market 
include Bio/Organics Endomycorrhizal Inoculant [$79.95 for 3 lbs, labeled to treat 500 plants], Plant Success Mycorrhizae Tablets [$19.95 
for 100 tablets, labeled to treat 50 plants up to 1 ft tall], and Earthroots VAM Fungi by First Fruits LLC [$15 for 3 lbs, labeled to treat 
200 seedlings].)

	
On-farm production of mycorrhizal inoculant in test enclosures at The Rodale Institute’s farm. Douds chose bahiagrass as a host plant 
"because it's a tropical grass and the first frost will kill the shoot growth"--so it won't escape to become a new local weed and won't 
harbor any pests or pathogens that might affect either resident crops or northern native grasses.

Agronomic practices that boost—or depress—
mycorrhizal levels

Although the first phase of Douds's research found larger and more diverse MF populations in organically-managed soils than in 
conventionally-managed ones, it also revealed how specific agronomic practices can boost or depress MF levels.

"Over-wintering cover crops. . . are very beneficial to mycorrhizal fungi," Douds notes, whereas "tillage disrupts the mycorrhizal fungi in 
the soil and serves to decrease the initial colonization of the plants." Based on these findings, Douds emphasizes that all farmers, organic 
or conventional, can take steps to nurture the MF already present in their fields: reduce tillage, he says, use fungicides sparingly, 
and--most important--maximize cover cropping. "Over-wintering cover crops give the MF a host plant to colonize when there's no cash crop 
growing on the soil," Douds explains.

In the coldest part of the year the MF go dormant, but during warm spells in early spring and late fall, the MF will try to grow, and can 
exhaust their reserves if they find no plant hosts. "During these periods. . . the fungus is still respiring, it's still burning up its 
carbohydrate storage in the spores, it's burning up the lipids that were stored," leaving it "less viable when the time comes finally for 
the crop plant to be present." A cover crop or even just a weedy fallow will maintain healthy MF populations, which can then benefit the 
cash crop coming on to the field.

Crop rotations are another factor to consider, since a handful of crop species belong to plant families that do not form mycorrhizal 
associations (said to be 'non-mycotrophic'), including the Brassicaceae (rape, broccoli, cabbage, turnips, etc), the Chenopodiaceae (beets, 
spinach), and the Polygonaceae (buckwheat). Not only will these crops not benefit from the presence of MF, but MF levels in the soil will be 
depressed after these crops are grown, potentially showing an effect on any mycotrophic crops which follow.

Potatoes and peppers inoculated with mycorrhizae get yield boosts of up to 50 percent!

In the second phase of his research, looking at the impact of MF on crop yields, Douds began inoculating plants in the greenhouse and then 
tracking their performance in the field.

"We had some plants that were inoculated with a control mix with no inoculum, another one inoculated with a mix of mycorrhizal fungi, and 
another inoculated with just one species commonly present in commercial inoculum," Douds explains. "We transplanted them into the Compost 
Utilization Trial,"--another ongoing experiment at The Rodale Institute--"and we found over the course of the 3-year experiment that the 
mixture of mycorrhizal fungi increased the yield of marketable-sized peppers up to a maximum of 34% over the control. Last year we tried 
inoculating potatoes, and we got up to a 50% increase over the controls."

	
David Douds and a research intern dig potatoes in this season's mycorrhizal test plot at the Rodale Experimental Farm. In last year's 
trials, potatoes grown with mycorrhizal fungi showed yield increases of as much as 50%. Other crops known to respond dramatically to 
mycorrhizal colonization include citrus, onion, and strawberries.

This year they are repeating the potato trial, measuring yields under four different treatments: one with no added MF; one with a 
commercially available MF; one with a mixed MF inoculant grown in a leaf compost and vermiculite medium; and one with a mixed MF inoculant 
grown in a dairy manure compost and vermiculite medium. Overall, this work suggests that a small amount of mixed MF inoculant can be 
substituted for a large amount of fertilizer--with no loss of yield, greatly reduced environmental impact, and lower production costs.

One unexpected finding of Douds' work at Rodale "is that mycorrhizae can be used to increase the yield of crops even in soils that are very 
high in phosphorous." Some of the soils at the Rodale Farm which have been heavily composted, Douds notes, "have available P in excess of 
300 parts/million"--well above the level at which mycorrhizal responses are typically seen, around 20-50 ppm available P. "The 
generalization would be that P as high as 300 would be a situation in which the plant can take up all the P that it needs by itself without 
relying on the mycorrhizal fungi." Douds believes that at high nutrient levels, some of the other benefits of MF--enhanced disease 
resistance, improved soil aggregation and better water relations--could be showing an effect.

Build your own on-farm inoculum production system

The third phase of Douds' research at Rodale Farm focuses on developing an inexpensive, practicable system for on-farm production of 
mycorrhizae inoculant. As obligate symbionts, endomycorrhizae have so far resisted attempts to create what scientists call axenic (or 
isolated, single-species) cultures--they can only be grown in the presence of a host plant. Douds' system works within this constraint, 
using bahiagrass (Paspalum notatum), a tropical grass native to the southeastern US, as a host.

	

A myccorhizae factory: The basic procedure is for the farmer to construct a simple enclosure out of landscape fabric, fill it with a mixture 
of compost and vermiculite, and then transplant pre-colonized bahiagrass seedlings into the mixture. Over the course of the growing season 
the bahiagrass spreads within the enclosure and the mycorrhizal fungi spread and reproduce along with it. When the grass dies back in the 
winter, the farmer is left with a concentrated mycorrhizal inoculant that can be incorporated into his or her potting mix when starting 
seedlings in the greenhouse the following spring.

The basic procedure is for the farmer to construct a simple enclosure out of landscape fabric (75 cm square and 20 cm high), fill it with a 
mixture of compost and vermiculite, and then transplant pre-colonized bahiagrass seedlings into the mixture. Over the course of the growing 
season the bahiagrass spreads within the enclosure and the mycorrhizal fungi spread and reproduce along with it. When the grass dies back in 
the winter, the farmer is left with a concentrated mycorrhizal inoculant that can be incorporated into his or her potting mix when starting 
seedlings in the greenhouse the following spring.

This year, Douds gave inoculated bahiagrass seedlings and other materials to a few Pennsylvania farmers to see how the method fares in the 
real-life conditions of farming. Meanwhile, Douds has 12 soil enclosures growing at the Rodale Farm in an experimental grid designed to 
identify optimum growth media.

Douds chose three different kinds of compost--yard-clippings compost, controlled microbial compost, and dairy manure-leaf compost--and then 
diluted each kind with vermiculite at four different ratios, ranging from 1 part compost:2 parts vermiculite, down to 1 part compost:49 
parts vermiculite. Each soil enclosure, finally, has nine separate sections, three with no inoculant and three each with two different 
mixtures of MF.

At the end of the season, says Douds, "we'll sample the mixtures from within each enclosure, quantify the inoculum production, and then 
hopefully develop a prediction formula, where the optimum ratio [of compost to vermiculite] is a function" of the nutrient analysis and 
other properties of the compost. All the farmer will need to do, then, is get the nutrient analysis of his or her compost, plug it in to the 
formula, and find the optimal ratio of compost to vermiculite to use for his or her farm.

"On-farm methods have several advantages over commercial inoculants," Douds explains. In the first place, whereas commercial formulae 
typically only contain a single MF species (frequently Glomus intraradices), Douds' method yields a diverse inoculum containing many MF 
species. This is crucial because MF show significant 'functional diversity'--"some are good at holding the soil together, some are good at 
gathering nutrients," others help fight disease.

A second, related advantage is that by mixing in some soil from a nearby woodland, prairie, or hedgerow, the farmer can use Douds's system 
"to produce the native or indigenous strains of mycorrhizal fungi. . . the ones that are already adapted to his [or her] particular soil 
conditions." This could be especially important on problem soils, such as those with high aluminum, say, or high or low pH, where 
commercially-produced fungi may not survive.

	
Growing fungi in real life: David Douds with one of his on-farm mycorrhizal fungi production systems at Shenk's Berry Farm in Lititz, PA. 
John Shenk, the cooperating farmer, grows 5 acres of strawberries, 3 acres of raspberries, and 10 acres of mixed vegetables in a low-input 
system, selling on-farm and at the Clark Park Farmers Market in Philadelphia. "We try to farm thoughtfully," says Shenk. "And do lots of 
reading and research to keep improving our farming methods." Next season, Shenk will incorporate the soil from the enclosure into his 
greenhouse potting mix.

Last but not least, home-grown mycorrhizal inoculum can be produced at a fraction of the cost of purchasing commercial mixes. "I've done 
some preliminary calculations," says Douds. "The on-farm system produces 100 million propagules [in a single enclosure] for approximately 
$50, not counting the cost of the farmer's labor, which is fairly minimal. To purchase 100 million propagules as listed on the bag of some 
commercial mixes would cost anywhere from $8,000 to $40,000." Commercial inoculants are sold in a peat- or vermiculite-based medium, so 
purchasers have to buy (and pay to have shipped) a large volume of material to get a small number of viable MF propagules--another reason it 
makes more sense to grow your own.

At the moment, Douds' system (like commercial MF inoculant) is suitable for two types of farms: vegetable growers on any scale who produce 
their own seedlings and can mix the inoculum into their potting mix; and smaller, labor-intensive farms or urban gardens where "the inoculum 
can be incorporated by hand, directly into the planting furrow or planting hole." Farmers growing field crops on a large scale can only take 
advantage of MF inoculants if they want to try them out in a relatively small area. "Delivery of MF inoculum to the field is a problem," 
acknowledges Douds. "Commercial companies are working on this for their particular inocula." He smiles. We can only hope that he will be too.
		
	
		
	
   	

OPX™
   	e-letters to the e-editors
   	news & research
   	columnists
   	gleanings
   	1000 stories
   	talking shop
   	certification
   	the pig page
   	this farm life
   	newsletters
   	mid-atlantic marketing
   	new farm japan
   	
   	FARM LOCATOR™
   	
   	

PRESS ROOM

Farmers: Is organic certification worth it?

CAST YOUR VOTE NOW

Stay Up-to-Date –
Sign up for our Newsletter

NewFarm.org changes daily! Don't miss out on the latest interactive features, columns and news. Sign up now for our monthly e-newsletter and 
stay connected.

ACTION ALERTS

• Save foundation seed stocks from GM contamination

• Support Saskatchewan farmers in efforts to block GM wheat

• Raise your voice against factory hog operations

Share Your Stories

Are you a farmer? A consumer? Whatever story you have to tell, let it be an inspiration to others.
Share it with us now...

T H E    N E W    F A R M – R E G E N E R A T I V E    A G R I C U L T U R E    W O R L D W I D E

©2004 The Rodale Institute® • PRIVACY POLICY • Design: www.homeworkdesign.com
Check out our other sites: The Rodale Institute® • Kidsregen.org

			


-- 
L.F.London
lfl@intrex.net
http://market-farming.com
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech



From - Mon Apr 19 13:30:49 2004
X-UIDL: 368615602
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from mailserv1.intrex.net [209.42.192.236] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-8.04) id AD19414600AE; Mon, 19 Apr 2004 11:15:37 -0400
Received: by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix)
	id 87CB7D640; Mon, 19 Apr 2004 11:15:37 -0400 (EDT)
Delivered-To: lfl@intrex.net
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C2DAD8BC
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Mon, 19 Apr 2004 11:15:37 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from n46.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n46.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.67.23])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 51DF4D785
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Mon, 19 Apr 2004 11:15:32 -0400 (EDT)
X-eGroups-Return: sentto-7527208-8105-1082387721-lfl=intrex.net@returns.groups.yahoo.com
Received: from [66.218.66.30] by n46.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2004 15:15:25 -0000
X-Sender: steved@ncat.org
X-Apparently-To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Received: (qmail 33465 invoked from network); 19 Apr 2004 15:15:20 -0000
Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172)
  by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Apr 2004 15:15:20 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO n38.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.106)
  by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Apr 2004 15:15:20 -0000
Received: from [66.218.67.143] by n38.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2004 15:15:10 -0000
To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Message-ID: <c60qds+7rlr@eGroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <c60g6k+cc59@eGroups.com>
User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82
X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster
X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.106
From: "Steve Diver" <steved@ncat.org>
X-Originating-IP: 130.184.56.141
X-Yahoo-Profile: steved3602002
MIME-Version: 1.0
Mailing-List: list compost_tea@yahoogroups.com; contact compost_tea-owner@yahoogroups.com
Delivered-To: mailing list compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Precedence: bulk
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:compost_tea-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 15:15:08 -0000
Subject: [compost_tea] Re: compost tea additives and NOSB
Reply-To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Virus-Scanned: by viruswatch at intrex.net
X-Note: Total weight is 1. NOABUSE
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@mail.intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 368615602

<html><body>


<tt>
A lot of people in farming have been **shocked** at<BR>
the narrow view of compost, vermicompost, processed<BR>
manures and compost teas in the NOP.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
The compost practice standards were lifted from a<BR>
EPA Biosolids rule known as &quot;processes to further<BR>
reduce pathogens&quot;, PFRP's, to meet time and temperature<BR>
requirements to kill human pathogens in sewage sludge<BR>
and APPLIED organic farmers as a regulatory practice!! <BR>
<BR>
In response to protests from organic farmers, the <BR>
NOSB formed the Compost Task Force to updgrade<BR>
practice standards for compost in NOP 205.203(2).&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Here is the report.&nbsp; It looks like May 2002, and<BR>
since it has not been enacted, that tells you how<BR>
slow the process is to change NOP, a federal law.<BR>
<BR>
Compost Task Force Final Report <BR>
<a href="http://www.ams.usda.gov/nosb/finalrecommendations/">http://www.ams.usda.gov/nosb/finalrecommendations/</a><BR>
may02/composttaskforce.pdf<BR>
<BR>
In fact, NOP rules are so stifling on compost, processed<BR>
manures, and compost teas that Oregon Tilth and Oregon<BR>
State University sponsored a national summit on human <BR>
pathogens from livestock manures to bring people together <BR>
and discuss the situation and make recommendations and <BR>
suggestions to upgrade these uses... in June 2003... <BR>
recognizing there is a disconnect between every day <BR>
organic farming and &quot;regulatory text&quot; that codifies <BR>
farming practices. <BR>
<BR>
See:<BR>
<BR>
Human Pathogens from Livestock Manures: Proceedings<BR>
of a National Summit<BR>
<a href="http://www.tilth.org/site/Publications/pathogen_summit.pdf">http://www.tilth.org/site/Publications/pathogen_summit.pdf</a><BR>
<BR>
The NOSB Compost Tea Task Force was formed to upgrade <BR>
compost tea practice standards.<BR>
<BR>
It notes that compost substrate to make compost teas can <BR>
be NOP compliant compost OR compost that follows guidelines<BR>
set forth by the the NOSB Compost Task Force.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Under (1) the current climate at USDA which is focused on <BR>
pathogens in animal manures and potential contamination of<BR>
edible crops and food supply and (2) scientific studies that <BR>
show multiple-week survival of pathogens applied to vegetable <BR>
crops, and (3) studies that show sweet teas can grow pathogens <BR>
-- whether you agree with the brewing protocals or not -- the <BR>
CTTF came up with the recommendations that you see.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Keep in mind that zero published studies on modern ACT's <BR>
and pathogen survival are available in the literature, today.<BR>
<BR>
There is a lab in TN that is providing an E. coli test for <BR>
composters for $15.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Steve Diver <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
--- In compost_tea@yahoogroups.com, &quot;ericgoodenough&quot; &lt;sfo@g...&gt; wrote:<BR>
&gt; NOSB CTTF defines compost tea additives as &quot;Materials other than <BR>
&gt; water and compost added at the start of the compost tea making <BR>
&gt; process to increase microbial biomasss/populations.&quot;<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; Now, if I read this correctly, then kelp, rock powders, fish, <BR>
&gt; humates, molasses, sugar, juice, oat flour, crab shell, ......THESE <BR>
&gt; ARE ALL ADDITIVES INTENDED TO INCREASE MICROBIAL BIOMASS!<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; Therefore, if you use these things you will be subject to<BR>
pre-testing <BR>
&gt; to verify that your tea does not contain pathogens.&nbsp; Two tests are <BR>
&gt; required and the average result is used to &quot;prove&quot; your process is <BR>
&gt; clean.&nbsp; IF YOU CHANGE YOUR RECIPE (or your brew time, or your air <BR>
&gt; input, or your start temp, or your water supply) YOU WILL NEED TO <BR>
&gt; ORDER UP ANOTHER SET OF TESTS.<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; Of course, if you choose to abide by the 90/120 day pre-harvest <BR>
&gt; interval restrictions (in other words if you apply CT no sooner<BR>
than <BR>
&gt; 90 pre-harvest for produce not in direct contact with the soil and <BR>
&gt; 120 days for produce in contact with the soil), then of course you <BR>
&gt; are all set.&nbsp; I'm not sure which interval (90 or 120?) I will be <BR>
&gt; forced to use for my apples, but if I am limited to using a foliar <BR>
&gt; ACT before May 15 (120 interval) or June 15 (90 day&nbsp; interval) it <BR>
&gt; doesn't matter!&nbsp; THE BOTTOM LINE IS I'VE JUST LOST A TOOL I COULD<BR>
USE <BR>
&gt; TO OUT-COMPETE APPLE SCAB, SOOTY BLOTCH, FLYSPECK, FIREBLIGHT,<BR>
BLACK <BR>
&gt; KNOT, ETC. ETC.!&nbsp; (UNLESS, OF COURSE, I BREW MY TEA WITH ONLY<BR>
COMPOST <BR>
&gt; AND WATER!)<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; Is anyone enlivening their compost with oat flour?&nbsp; My bet is that <BR>
&gt; this practice will cause concern because your compost is no <BR>
&gt; longer &quot;finished&quot; according to standards and/or the material will<BR>
be <BR>
&gt; considered a &quot;compost tea additive.&quot;<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; I've been making vermi- and thermal composts for tea brewing<BR>
without <BR>
&gt; the use of manure feedstocks so I could avoid the pre-harvest <BR>
&gt; interval headaches.&nbsp; The CTTF is recommending that CT should be<BR>
made <BR>
&gt; with &quot;compliant compost or vermicompost, using the NOSB guidelines <BR>
&gt; set forth on April 18, 2002&quot;&nbsp; CAN ANYONE POINT ME TO THE GUIDELINES <BR>
&gt; FOR VERMICOMPOST?&nbsp; DOES IT NEED TO GO THROUGH THE THREE-DAY HEATING <BR>
&gt; PROCESS?&nbsp; OH, BY THE WAY, IF YOU'VE BEEN MAKING YOUR VERMI- OR <BR>
&gt; THERMAL COMPOST WITHOUT MANURE TO AVOID THE PRE-HARVEST INTERVAL<BR>
THE <BR>
&gt; CTTF IS NOW RECOMMENDING THAT EVEN COMPOST MADE FROM 100% PLANT <BR>
&gt; FEEDSTOCK MATERIALS IS TO BE CONSIDERED THE SAME AS OTHER COMPOSTS <BR>
&gt; (WHEN MAKING COMPOST TEA) BECAUSE &quot;NON-MANURE COMPOST FEEDSTOCKS<BR>
MAY <BR>
&gt; HARBOR HIGH LEVELS OF FECAL BACTERIA.&quot;<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; Folks, if these receommendations are accepted, I believe Compost<BR>
Tea <BR>
&gt; will become an excellent tool for the corporate organic growers who <BR>
&gt; can afford the cost associated with testing and re-testing and <BR>
&gt; recordkeeping.&nbsp; It may be that, again, the big guys get to reap the <BR>
&gt; rewards of the long fight to creat organic standards while the rest <BR>
&gt; of us local growers interested in food integrity and security move <BR>
&gt; on.&nbsp; Organic ain't what it used to be.&nbsp; I know these are just <BR>
&gt; recommendations but I am inching closer to the ledge.&nbsp; Can somebody <BR>
&gt; talk me down?<BR>
<BR>
</tt>




<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->

<br>
<tt><hr width="500">
<b>Yahoo! Groups Links</b><br>
<ul>
<li>To visit your group on the web, go to:<br><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/compost_tea/">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/compost_tea/</a><br>&nbsp;
<li>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<br><a href="mailto:compost_tea-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe">compost_tea-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</a><br>&nbsp;
<li>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms of Service</a>.
</ul>
</tt>
</br>

<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->


</body></html>



From - Mon Apr 19 13:30:48 2004
X-UIDL: 368615595
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from mailserv1.intrex.net [209.42.192.236] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-8.04) id A422614300F8; Mon, 19 Apr 2004 08:20:50 -0400
Received: by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix)
	id 6BDB6AC14; Mon, 19 Apr 2004 08:20:50 -0400 (EDT)
Delivered-To: lfl@intrex.net
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50D39ABE3
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Mon, 19 Apr 2004 08:20:50 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.77])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 95042AA18
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Mon, 19 Apr 2004 08:20:49 -0400 (EDT)
X-eGroups-Return: sentto-7527208-8104-1082377248-lfl=intrex.net@returns.groups.yahoo.com
Received: from [66.218.67.195] by n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2004 12:20:49 -0000
X-Sender: sfo@gwi.net
X-Apparently-To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Received: (qmail 8156 invoked from network); 19 Apr 2004 12:20:47 -0000
Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216)
  by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Apr 2004 12:20:47 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO n35.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.103)
  by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Apr 2004 12:20:47 -0000
Received: from [66.218.67.162] by n35.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2004 12:20:37 -0000
To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Message-ID: <c60g6k+cc59@eGroups.com>
User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82
X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster
X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.103
From: "ericgoodenough" <sfo@gwi.net>
X-Originating-IP: 216.195.150.187
X-Yahoo-Profile: ericgoodenough
MIME-Version: 1.0
Mailing-List: list compost_tea@yahoogroups.com; contact compost_tea-owner@yahoogroups.com
Delivered-To: mailing list compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Precedence: bulk
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:compost_tea-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 12:20:36 -0000
Subject: [compost_tea] compost tea additives and NOSB
Reply-To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Virus-Scanned: by viruswatch at intrex.net
X-Note: Total weight is 1. NOABUSE
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@mail.intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 368615595

<html><body>


<tt>
NOSB CTTF defines compost tea additives as &quot;Materials other than <BR>
water and compost added at the start of the compost tea making <BR>
process to increase microbial biomasss/populations.&quot;<BR>
<BR>
Now, if I read this correctly, then kelp, rock powders, fish, <BR>
humates, molasses, sugar, juice, oat flour, crab shell, ......THESE <BR>
ARE ALL ADDITIVES INTENDED TO INCREASE MICROBIAL BIOMASS!<BR>
<BR>
Therefore, if you use these things you will be subject to pre-testing <BR>
to verify that your tea does not contain pathogens.&nbsp; Two tests are <BR>
required and the average result is used to &quot;prove&quot; your process is <BR>
clean.&nbsp; IF YOU CHANGE YOUR RECIPE (or your brew time, or your air <BR>
input, or your start temp, or your water supply) YOU WILL NEED TO <BR>
ORDER UP ANOTHER SET OF TESTS.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, if you choose to abide by the 90/120 day pre-harvest <BR>
interval restrictions (in other words if you apply CT no sooner than <BR>
90 pre-harvest for produce not in direct contact with the soil and <BR>
120 days for produce in contact with the soil), then of course you <BR>
are all set.&nbsp; I'm not sure which interval (90 or 120?) I will be <BR>
forced to use for my apples, but if I am limited to using a foliar <BR>
ACT before May 15 (120 interval) or June 15 (90 day&nbsp; interval) it <BR>
doesn't matter!&nbsp; THE BOTTOM LINE IS I'VE JUST LOST A TOOL I COULD USE <BR>
TO OUT-COMPETE APPLE SCAB, SOOTY BLOTCH, FLYSPECK, FIREBLIGHT, BLACK <BR>
KNOT, ETC. ETC.!&nbsp; (UNLESS, OF COURSE, I BREW MY TEA WITH ONLY COMPOST <BR>
AND WATER!)<BR>
<BR>
Is anyone enlivening their compost with oat flour?&nbsp; My bet is that <BR>
this practice will cause concern because your compost is no <BR>
longer &quot;finished&quot; according to standards and/or the material will be <BR>
considered a &quot;compost tea additive.&quot;<BR>
<BR>
I've been making vermi- and thermal composts for tea brewing without <BR>
the use of manure feedstocks so I could avoid the pre-harvest <BR>
interval headaches.&nbsp; The CTTF is recommending that CT should be made <BR>
with &quot;compliant compost or vermicompost, using the NOSB guidelines <BR>
set forth on April 18, 2002&quot;&nbsp; CAN ANYONE POINT ME TO THE GUIDELINES <BR>
FOR VERMICOMPOST?&nbsp; DOES IT NEED TO GO THROUGH THE THREE-DAY HEATING <BR>
PROCESS?&nbsp; OH, BY THE WAY, IF YOU'VE BEEN MAKING YOUR VERMI- OR <BR>
THERMAL COMPOST WITHOUT MANURE TO AVOID THE PRE-HARVEST INTERVAL THE <BR>
CTTF IS NOW RECOMMENDING THAT EVEN COMPOST MADE FROM 100% PLANT <BR>
FEEDSTOCK MATERIALS IS TO BE CONSIDERED THE SAME AS OTHER COMPOSTS <BR>
(WHEN MAKING COMPOST TEA) BECAUSE &quot;NON-MANURE COMPOST FEEDSTOCKS MAY <BR>
HARBOR HIGH LEVELS OF FECAL BACTERIA.&quot;<BR>
<BR>
Folks, if these receommendations are accepted, I believe Compost Tea <BR>
will become an excellent tool for the corporate organic growers who <BR>
can afford the cost associated with testing and re-testing and <BR>
recordkeeping.&nbsp; It may be that, again, the big guys get to reap the <BR>
rewards of the long fight to creat organic standards while the rest <BR>
of us local growers interested in food integrity and security move <BR>
on.&nbsp; Organic ain't what it used to be.&nbsp; I know these are just <BR>
recommendations but I am inching closer to the ledge.&nbsp; Can somebody <BR>
talk me down?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</tt>




<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->

<br>
<tt><hr width="500">
<b>Yahoo! Groups Links</b><br>
<ul>
<li>To visit your group on the web, go to:<br><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/compost_tea/">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/compost_tea/</a><br>&nbsp;
<li>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<br><a href="mailto:compost_tea-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe">compost_tea-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</a><br>&nbsp;
<li>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms of Service</a>.
</ul>
</tt>
</br>

<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->


</body></html>



From - Tue May 04 00:01:07 2004
X-UIDL: 368616871
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from mailserv1.intrex.net [209.42.192.236] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-8.04) id AF72815100E2; Mon, 03 May 2004 23:35:14 -0400
Received: by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix)
	id 778F4CFDB; Mon,  3 May 2004 23:35:14 -0400 (EDT)
Delivered-To: lfl@intrex.net
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C0D6CFD7
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Mon,  3 May 2004 23:35:14 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from intrex.net (client230-16.dsl.intrex.net [209.42.230.16])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4EF1CEDA
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Mon,  3 May 2004 23:35:13 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <40973F06.80109@intrex.net>
Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 23:58:14 -0700
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
Organization: http://market-farming.com  --  Venaura Farm
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: lfl@intrex.net
Subject: Molasses applied to soils feeds soil microbes
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Virus-Scanned: by viruswatch at intrex.net
X-Note: Total weight is 0. Whitelisted
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@mail.intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 368616871

Steve Diver steved at ncat.org
Mon May 3 10:27:19 EDT 2004

     * Previous message: [Market-farming] Speaking of sweeter...
     * Next message: [Market-farming] asparagus
     * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ]

Molasses applied to soils feeds soil microbes.  Activating
soil biology can impact above-ground insect pests by altering
plant metabolism -- especially relating to sap pH and amino
acids -- in addition to controlling to soil-borne diseases which are
the usual target pathogens of enhanced soil biology.

Likewise, I recall some research underway to understand the
effect of compost utilization on arthropod pests.

Likewise, I recall some research on infra-red detection of hot
zones on plant surfaces where insects attacked.

The application of humus management=biology, mineral balancing,
and energetics is the three-part approach in ecofarming.

Steve Diver





-- 
L.F.London
lfl@intrex.net
http://market-farming.com
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech



From - Thu May 06 13:51:38 2004
X-UIDL: 368617124
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from mailserv1.intrex.net [209.42.192.236] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-8.04) id A0169EE009A; Thu, 06 May 2004 13:04:22 -0400
Received: by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix)
	id 12BE9A9A9; Thu,  6 May 2004 13:04:22 -0400 (EDT)
Delivered-To: lfl@intrex.net
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA636C8D6
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Thu,  6 May 2004 13:04:21 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu [152.2.210.119])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BC86C8B8
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Thu,  6 May 2004 13:04:21 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id 2AFF8200D5; Thu,  6 May 2004 13:04:20 -0400 (EDT)
Delivered-To: organicviticulture@lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from pop.hevanet.com (pop.hevanet.com [198.5.254.15])
	by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30E9A200D2
	for <organicviticulture@lists.ibiblio.org>;
	Thu,  6 May 2004 13:04:17 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from [130.94.165.224] (ts04-ip108.hevanet.com [130.94.165.224])
	by pop.hevanet.com (8.11.6p3/8.11.6p3) with ESMTP id i46H4FT95396
	for <organicviticulture@lists.ibiblio.org>;
	Thu, 6 May 2004 10:04:15 -0700 (PDT)
User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022
Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 10:04:14 -0700
From: "Lon J. Rombough" <lonrom@hevanet.com>
To: organicviticulture <organicviticulture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <BCBFBE1E.1C074%lonrom@hevanet.com>
In-Reply-To: <LYRIS-22236-50575-2004.05.06-11.52.36--lonrom#hevanet.com@ls.ars.usda.gov>
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Subject: [organicviticulture] FW: Helping Beneficial Fungi Work
X-BeenThere: organicviticulture@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4
Precedence: list
Reply-To: Organic Grape Culture <organicviticulture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: Organic Grape Culture <organicviticulture.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/organicviticulture>, 
	<mailto:organicviticulture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/organicviticulture>
List-Post: <mailto:organicviticulture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:organicviticulture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/organicviticulture>, 
	<mailto:organicviticulture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
Sender: organicviticulture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
Errors-To: organicviticulture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Virus-Scanned: by viruswatch at intrex.net
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@mail.intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 368617124



----------
From: ARS News Service <NewsService@ars.usda.gov>
Reply-To: ARS News Service <NewsService@ars.usda.gov>
Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 11:49:55 -0400
To: ARS News subscriber <lonrom@hevanet.com>
Subject: Helping Beneficial Fungi Work

STORY LEAD:
Helping Beneficial Fungi Work

___________________________________________

ARS News Service
Agricultural Research Service, USDA
David Elstein, (301) 504-1654, delstein@ars.usda.gov
May 6, 2004
___________________________________________

Certain fertilizers can actually inhibit beneficial, naturally
occurring fungi that help plants use water and nutrients while
suppressing diseases, according to an Agricultural Research Service
scientist studying these beneficial root-dwelling fungi.

ARS plant pathologist Robert Linderman at the Horticultural Crops
Research Laboratory in Corvallis, Ore., is studying how these fungi,
called mycorrhizae, interact with fertilizers and other soil amendments
that have been commonly used in agriculture over the past half century.

Linderman is one of only a few scientists studying how mycorrhizae
affect the nutrition and health of nursery crops. He has measured the
level of mycorrhizal colonization of roots to see whether various
materials added to soil help or inhibit fungal growth. He studied a
range of commercial fertilizers and found that organic ones are usually
compatible with mycorrhizae, while phosphorus-rich inorganic fertilizers
usually inhibit them.

He also looked at peat moss, a popular additive to potting mixes used
to grow nursery crops. He found that in some cases it helps mycorrhizal
associations, while in others it hinders the fungi. Coir, a coconut
fiber that has become a popular potting mix additive, does not inhibit
mycorrhizae, but it may reduce growth of some plants.

Linderman is currently studying various types of composts to see what,
if any, effect they'll have on the establishment of mycorrhizae. His
initial finding is that some composts may suppress the fungi because of
high phosphorus levels.

After spending years researching these important fungi, Linderman
believes that he will now be able to advise growers as to which potting
mix additives will help establish mycorrhizae that can enhance plant
growth and health.    

Read more about this research in the May 2004 issue of Agricultural
Research magazine, available online at:
http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/may04/fungi0504.htm

ARS is the U.S. Department of Agriculture's chief scientific research
agency.

___________________________________________

* This is one of the news reports that ARS Information distributes to
subscribers on weekdays.
* Start, stop or change an e-mail subscription at
www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/subscribe.htm
* NewsService@ars.usda.gov | www.ars.usda.gov/news
* Phone (301) 504-1638 | fax (301) 504-1648




_______________________________________________
organicviticulture mailing list
organicviticulture@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/organicviticulture


From - Thu May 06 14:00:35 2004
X-UIDL: 368617131
X-Mozilla-Status: 1001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from mailserv1.intrex.net [209.42.192.236] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-8.04) id A7D563BE0126; Thu, 06 May 2004 13:37:25 -0400
Received: by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix)
	id 3A190B142; Thu,  6 May 2004 13:37:25 -0400 (EDT)
Delivered-To: lfl@intrex.net
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id 1D57BB0D8; Thu,  6 May 2004 13:37:25 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from intrex.net (client230-16.dsl.intrex.net [209.42.230.16])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id 06292AD4C; Thu,  6 May 2004 13:37:22 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <409AA76B.7090402@intrex.net>
Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 14:00:27 -0700
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
Organization: http://market-farming.com  --  Venaura Farm
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: compostteas@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: FW: Helping Beneficial Fungi Work  &  FWD: Boost yields by nurturing
 beneficial soil fungi
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Virus-Scanned: by viruswatch at intrex.net
X-Note: Total weight is 0. Whitelisted
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@mail.intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 368617131

----------
From: ARS News Service <NewsService@ars.usda.gov>
Reply-To: ARS News Service <NewsService@ars.usda.gov>
Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 11:49:55 -0400
To: ARS News subscriber <lonrom@hevanet.com>
Subject: Helping Beneficial Fungi Work

STORY LEAD:
Helping Beneficial Fungi Work

___________________________________________

ARS News Service
Agricultural Research Service, USDA
David Elstein, (301) 504-1654, delstein@ars.usda.gov
May 6, 2004
___________________________________________

Certain fertilizers can actually inhibit beneficial, naturally
occurring fungi that help plants use water and nutrients while
suppressing diseases, according to an Agricultural Research Service
scientist studying these beneficial root-dwelling fungi.

ARS plant pathologist Robert Linderman at the Horticultural Crops
Research Laboratory in Corvallis, Ore., is studying how these fungi,
called mycorrhizae, interact with fertilizers and other soil amendments
that have been commonly used in agriculture over the past half century.

Linderman is one of only a few scientists studying how mycorrhizae
affect the nutrition and health of nursery crops. He has measured the
level of mycorrhizal colonization of roots to see whether various
materials added to soil help or inhibit fungal growth. He studied a
range of commercial fertilizers and found that organic ones are usually
compatible with mycorrhizae, while phosphorus-rich inorganic fertilizers
usually inhibit them.

He also looked at peat moss, a popular additive to potting mixes used
to grow nursery crops. He found that in some cases it helps mycorrhizal
associations, while in others it hinders the fungi. Coir, a coconut
fiber that has become a popular potting mix additive, does not inhibit
mycorrhizae, but it may reduce growth of some plants.

Linderman is currently studying various types of composts to see what,
if any, effect they'll have on the establishment of mycorrhizae. His
initial finding is that some composts may suppress the fungi because of
high phosphorus levels.

After spending years researching these important fungi, Linderman
believes that he will now be able to advise growers as to which potting
mix additives will help establish mycorrhizae that can enhance plant
growth and health.

Read more about this research in the May 2004 issue of Agricultural
Research magazine, available online at:
http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/may04/fungi0504.htm

ARS is the U.S. Department of Agriculture's chief scientific research
agency.

___________________________________________

* This is one of the news reports that ARS Information distributes to
subscribers on weekdays.
* Start, stop or change an e-mail subscription at
www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/subscribe.htm
* NewsService@ars.usda.gov | www.ars.usda.gov/news
* Phone (301) 504-1638 | fax (301) 504-1648
--------------------------------------------

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Cultivating diversity underground for better yields above
          http://www.newfarm.org/depts/NFfield_trials/0903/daviddouds.shtml
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 23:24:01 -0700

http://www.newfarm.org/depts/NFfield_trials/0903/daviddouds.shtml

Cultivating diversity underground for better yields above
Research at The Rodale Institute® demonstrates how sustainable farming practices can boost yields by nurturing beneficial soil fungi.

By Laura Sayre

About this series:

As some of you may know, The Rodale Institute®, which publishes The New Farm®, is home to the longest running field trials in the country 
comparing organic and conventional systems of farming called The Rodale Institute Farming Systems Trial® (FST). The data from that 23 years 
of research is a real treasure trove of insight into the economic, ecological and agronomic benefits of organic farming.

In addition to this long-running Farming Systems Trial, we have a variety of other research in progress at The Institute. David Douds, as 
you’ll read in this story, has been studying soil fungi here at The Institute’s research farm for 15 years. We’re engaged in no-till 
research, weed research, compost tea research, composting research, water quality research, and much more.

Until now, much of the light we’re generating here on our research farm has been hidden under the proverbial barrel, but we’re taking off 
the barrel and busting it up for firewood. We’re going let the light of the amazing research being done here shine on farmers, consumers and 
environmental activities.

Over the next year we’ll be running a series of stories, about one a month, on the significance of our research ... and its practical 
applications. That includes a few stories on equipment construction—a front-mounted roller for no-till, and a compost turner converted from 
a junked 18-wheeler.

So sit tight, and be prepared to be amazed, starting with David Douds’ discoveries about how you can increase vegetable yields by 50 percent 
using homemade fungal inoculants.

Enjoy,

Chris Hill
Executive Editor

p.s. Interested in hearing more about how you can take part in the mycorrhizae revolution? Click here and let us know. Send your name, phone 
number and e-mail address with your note so we can follow-up with you.







     "Overall, Douds’ work suggests that a small amount of mixed MF inoculant can be substituted for a large amount of fertilizer--with no 
loss of yield, greatly reduced environmental impact, and lower production costs."


     Home-grown mycorrhizal inoculum can be produced at a fraction of the cost of purchasing commercial mixes. "I've done some preliminary 
calculations," says Douds. "The on-farm system produces 100 million propagules for approximately $50, not counting the cost of the farmer's 
labor, which is fairly minimal. To purchase 100 million propagules as listed on the bag of some commercial mixes would cost anywhere from 
$8,000 to $40,000."



FACT SHEET: Mycorrhizae


Above: USDA soil microbiologist David Douds with a carrot root-mycorrhizal fungi culture. Under the leadership of Dr. Douds, field trials 
have shown yield gains of as much as 50% in the presence of healthy mycorrhizae populations. Now Douds is developing a practical, low-cost 
method for on-farm production of mycorrhizal soil innoculant, promising higher yields with lower nutrient inputs. (Photo by Peggy Greb, 
courtesy of the Agricultural Research Service Photo Unit.)

September 29, 2003: You've read the amazing facts and figures: one teaspoon of healthy topsoil can contain millions of individual 
microorganisms, all playing a part in the functioning of the soil ecosystem. But how much do you really know about the action of those 
diverse species and how to maximize their presence in your own fields?

Ongoing research at The Rodale Institute® sheds light on one important component of the soil community--mycorrhizal fungi--and its impact on 
agricultural production. Under the leadership of Dr. David Douds, a soil microbiologist with the USDA's Agricultural Research Service, field 
trials have shown yield gains of as much as 50% in the presence of healthy mycorrhizae populations. Now Douds is developing a practical, 
low-cost method for on-farm production of mycorrhizal soil inoculant, promising higher yields with lower nutrient inputs.

A mycorrhizal primer

Mycorrhizae are soil-dwelling fungi that live in and around the roots of plants ('myco-rrhizae' means 'fungus-root'). The fungi and the 
plants form mutually beneficial associations in which the fungi receive carbohydrates from the plants and the plants receive nutrients and 
other benefits from the fungi. Since the first mycorrhizae species were described by a German botanist in the 1880s, researchers have 
discovered that approximately 80% of all land plants form mycorrhizal associations. The relationship is so widespread, in fact, that it is 
sometimes referred to as 'the Universal Symbiosis,' and is believed to have played a key role in the evolutionary transition from aquatic to 
terrestrial plant forms.

Today, scientists divide mycorrhizae into two major types: endomycorrhizae, which penetrate and colonize plant roots, and ectomycorrhizae, 
which form sheaths around plant roots. Whereas ectomycorrhizal relationships tend to be highly specialized--with some 6000 fungal species 
worldwide associated with tree species of the oak, beech, and pine families, among others--endomycorrhizal associations are more generalized 
as well as more widespread, with fewer than 150 fungal species opportunistically colonizing the roots of the vast majority of terrestrial 
plant families. Ectomycorrhizal inoculants are already widely used in commercial forestry, but the possibility of developing endomycorrhizal 
inoculants for production agriculture is a more recent idea.

"These are beneficial soil fungi that colonize the roots of plants and help them take up phosphorus" and other immobile soil nutrients, such 
as zinc and copper, Douds explains. "The fungus colonizes the root and it also grows out into the soil; the part of the fungus that's in the 
soil acts as an extension of the root system, to explore a greater volume of soil and take up nutrients and bring them back into the root."

In addition to facilitating nutrient uptake, some mycorrhizae secrete a gluey substance, called glomalin, which helps develop soil structure 
and soil aggregation; others may help plants fight disease. Yet because endomycorrhizae are 'obligate symbionts'--they must have living 
plant roots to colonize in order to complete their life cycle--their numbers will decline under conventional agricultural monocultures, 
which have living crop covers fewer months of the year than organic rotations. The drop in yields typically seen after the first year of 
cultivation on virgin prairie or forest soils is probably attributable in part to the loss of native mycorrhizae, Douds says.

Fifteen years of research prove benefits of fungi

Douds has been conducting research in collaboration with The Rodale Institute since 1989, his first year at the Agricultural Research 
Service's Eastern Regional Research Center in Wyndmoor, on the outskirts of Philadelphia. "Some employees of The Institute farm came down to 
our research center as part of a kind of an interagency show-and-tell about research programs and facilities and what all we could do to 
help each other," Douds recalls. "Rhonda Janke"--The Institute's research agronomist at the time--"gave a presentation about The Rodale 
Institute Farming Systems Trial," a side-by-side comparison of organic and conventional production systems. Douds recognized it as a great 
opportunity to study endomycorrhizal associations.

"Later that year I started sampling, and right off learned that [the soils under] the conventional farming systems had fewer mycorrhizal 
fungi than the soils under the low-input farming systems. So right away we all got excited and we branched out from there."

Since that first season, Douds' work at The Rodale Institute’s 333-acre experimental farm has progressed in three overlapping phases:

In the first phase, from 1989 to 1995, Douds and his team surveyed native mycorrhizal fungi (MF) populations at Rodale and examined the 
impact of different agricultural practices--including tillage regimes, crop rotations, and soil amendments--on those populations. The second 
phase, which is still ongoing, looks at the utilization of MF by crop plants, comparing yields in the presence and absence of different MF 
species. The third phase seeks to apply those findings by devising a simple, on-farm MF inoculum production system, so that farmers can 
harness the benefits of endomycorrhizae without spending lots of money on commercial mixes. (Commercial products already on the market 
include Bio/Organics Endomycorrhizal Inoculant [$79.95 for 3 lbs, labeled to treat 500 plants], Plant Success Mycorrhizae Tablets [$19.95 
for 100 tablets, labeled to treat 50 plants up to 1 ft tall], and Earthroots VAM Fungi by First Fruits LLC [$15 for 3 lbs, labeled to treat 
200 seedlings].)


On-farm production of mycorrhizal inoculant in test enclosures at The Rodale Institute’s farm. Douds chose bahiagrass as a host plant 
"because it's a tropical grass and the first frost will kill the shoot growth"--so it won't escape to become a new local weed and won't 
harbor any pests or pathogens that might affect either resident crops or northern native grasses.

Agronomic practices that boost—or depress—
mycorrhizal levels

Although the first phase of Douds's research found larger and more diverse MF populations in organically-managed soils than in 
conventionally-managed ones, it also revealed how specific agronomic practices can boost or depress MF levels.

"Over-wintering cover crops. . . are very beneficial to mycorrhizal fungi," Douds notes, whereas "tillage disrupts the mycorrhizal fungi in 
the soil and serves to decrease the initial colonization of the plants." Based on these findings, Douds emphasizes that all farmers, organic 
or conventional, can take steps to nurture the MF already present in their fields: reduce tillage, he says, use fungicides sparingly, 
and--most important--maximize cover cropping. "Over-wintering cover crops give the MF a host plant to colonize when there's no cash crop 
growing on the soil," Douds explains.

In the coldest part of the year the MF go dormant, but during warm spells in early spring and late fall, the MF will try to grow, and can 
exhaust their reserves if they find no plant hosts. "During these periods. . . the fungus is still respiring, it's still burning up its 
carbohydrate storage in the spores, it's burning up the lipids that were stored," leaving it "less viable when the time comes finally for 
the crop plant to be present." A cover crop or even just a weedy fallow will maintain healthy MF populations, which can then benefit the 
cash crop coming on to the field.

Crop rotations are another factor to consider, since a handful of crop species belong to plant families that do not form mycorrhizal 
associations (said to be 'non-mycotrophic'), including the Brassicaceae (rape, broccoli, cabbage, turnips, etc), the Chenopodiaceae (beets, 
spinach), and the Polygonaceae (buckwheat). Not only will these crops not benefit from the presence of MF, but MF levels in the soil will be 
depressed after these crops are grown, potentially showing an effect on any mycotrophic crops which follow.

Potatoes and peppers inoculated with mycorrhizae get yield boosts of up to 50 percent!

In the second phase of his research, looking at the impact of MF on crop yields, Douds began inoculating plants in the greenhouse and then 
tracking their performance in the field.

"We had some plants that were inoculated with a control mix with no inoculum, another one inoculated with a mix of mycorrhizal fungi, and 
another inoculated with just one species commonly present in commercial inoculum," Douds explains. "We transplanted them into the Compost 
Utilization Trial,"--another ongoing experiment at The Rodale Institute--"and we found over the course of the 3-year experiment that the 
mixture of mycorrhizal fungi increased the yield of marketable-sized peppers up to a maximum of 34% over the control. Last year we tried 
inoculating potatoes, and we got up to a 50% increase over the controls."


David Douds and a research intern dig potatoes in this season's mycorrhizal test plot at the Rodale Experimental Farm. In last year's 
trials, potatoes grown with mycorrhizal fungi showed yield increases of as much as 50%. Other crops known to respond dramatically to 
mycorrhizal colonization include citrus, onion, and strawberries.

This year they are repeating the potato trial, measuring yields under four different treatments: one with no added MF; one with a 
commercially available MF; one with a mixed MF inoculant grown in a leaf compost and vermiculite medium; and one with a mixed MF inoculant 
grown in a dairy manure compost and vermiculite medium. Overall, this work suggests that a small amount of mixed MF inoculant can be 
substituted for a large amount of fertilizer--with no loss of yield, greatly reduced environmental impact, and lower production costs.

One unexpected finding of Douds' work at Rodale "is that mycorrhizae can be used to increase the yield of crops even in soils that are very 
high in phosphorous." Some of the soils at the Rodale Farm which have been heavily composted, Douds notes, "have available P in excess of 
300 parts/million"--well above the level at which mycorrhizal responses are typically seen, around 20-50 ppm available P. "The 
generalization would be that P as high as 300 would be a situation in which the plant can take up all the P that it needs by itself without 
relying on the mycorrhizal fungi." Douds believes that at high nutrient levels, some of the other benefits of MF--enhanced disease 
resistance, improved soil aggregation and better water relations--could be showing an effect.

Build your own on-farm inoculum production system

The third phase of Douds' research at Rodale Farm focuses on developing an inexpensive, practicable system for on-farm production of 
mycorrhizae inoculant. As obligate symbionts, endomycorrhizae have so far resisted attempts to create what scientists call axenic (or 
isolated, single-species) cultures--they can only be grown in the presence of a host plant. Douds' system works within this constraint, 
using bahiagrass (Paspalum notatum), a tropical grass native to the southeastern US, as a host.



A myccorhizae factory: The basic procedure is for the farmer to construct a simple enclosure out of landscape fabric, fill it with a mixture 
of compost and vermiculite, and then transplant pre-colonized bahiagrass seedlings into the mixture. Over the course of the growing season 
the bahiagrass spreads within the enclosure and the mycorrhizal fungi spread and reproduce along with it. When the grass dies back in the 
winter, the farmer is left with a concentrated mycorrhizal inoculant that can be incorporated into his or her potting mix when starting 
seedlings in the greenhouse the following spring.

The basic procedure is for the farmer to construct a simple enclosure out of landscape fabric (75 cm square and 20 cm high), fill it with a 
mixture of compost and vermiculite, and then transplant pre-colonized bahiagrass seedlings into the mixture. Over the course of the growing 
season the bahiagrass spreads within the enclosure and the mycorrhizal fungi spread and reproduce along with it. When the grass dies back in 
the winter, the farmer is left with a concentrated mycorrhizal inoculant that can be incorporated into his or her potting mix when starting 
seedlings in the greenhouse the following spring.

This year, Douds gave inoculated bahiagrass seedlings and other materials to a few Pennsylvania farmers to see how the method fares in the 
real-life conditions of farming. Meanwhile, Douds has 12 soil enclosures growing at the Rodale Farm in an experimental grid designed to 
identify optimum growth media.

Douds chose three different kinds of compost--yard-clippings compost, controlled microbial compost, and dairy manure-leaf compost--and then 
diluted each kind with vermiculite at four different ratios, ranging from 1 part compost:2 parts vermiculite, down to 1 part compost:49 
parts vermiculite. Each soil enclosure, finally, has nine separate sections, three with no inoculant and three each with two different 
mixtures of MF.

At the end of the season, says Douds, "we'll sample the mixtures from within each enclosure, quantify the inoculum production, and then 
hopefully develop a prediction formula, where the optimum ratio [of compost to vermiculite] is a function" of the nutrient analysis and 
other properties of the compost. All the farmer will need to do, then, is get the nutrient analysis of his or her compost, plug it in to the 
formula, and find the optimal ratio of compost to vermiculite to use for his or her farm.

"On-farm methods have several advantages over commercial inoculants," Douds explains. In the first place, whereas commercial formulae 
typically only contain a single MF species (frequently Glomus intraradices), Douds' method yields a diverse inoculum containing many MF 
species. This is crucial because MF show significant 'functional diversity'--"some are good at holding the soil together, some are good at 
gathering nutrients," others help fight disease.

A second, related advantage is that by mixing in some soil from a nearby woodland, prairie, or hedgerow, the farmer can use Douds's system 
"to produce the native or indigenous strains of mycorrhizal fungi. . . the ones that are already adapted to his [or her] particular soil 
conditions." This could be especially important on problem soils, such as those with high aluminum, say, or high or low pH, where 
commercially-produced fungi may not survive.


Growing fungi in real life: David Douds with one of his on-farm mycorrhizal fungi production systems at Shenk's Berry Farm in Lititz, PA. 
John Shenk, the cooperating farmer, grows 5 acres of strawberries, 3 acres of raspberries, and 10 acres of mixed vegetables in a low-input 
system, selling on-farm and at the Clark Park Farmers Market in Philadelphia. "We try to farm thoughtfully," says Shenk. "And do lots of 
reading and research to keep improving our farming methods." Next season, Shenk will incorporate the soil from the enclosure into his 
greenhouse potting mix.

Last but not least, home-grown mycorrhizal inoculum can be produced at a fraction of the cost of purchasing commercial mixes. "I've done 
some preliminary calculations," says Douds. "The on-farm system produces 100 million propagules [in a single enclosure] for approximately 
$50, not counting the cost of the farmer's labor, which is fairly minimal. To purchase 100 million propagules as listed on the bag of some 
commercial mixes would cost anywhere from $8,000 to $40,000." Commercial inoculants are sold in a peat- or vermiculite-based medium, so 
purchasers have to buy (and pay to have shipped) a large volume of material to get a small number of viable MF propagules--another reason it 
makes more sense to grow your own.

At the moment, Douds' system (like commercial MF inoculant) is suitable for two types of farms: vegetable growers on any scale who produce 
their own seedlings and can mix the inoculum into their potting mix; and smaller, labor-intensive farms or urban gardens where "the inoculum 
can be incorporated by hand, directly into the planting furrow or planting hole." Farmers growing field crops on a large scale can only take 
advantage of MF inoculants if they want to try them out in a relatively small area. "Delivery of MF inoculum to the field is a problem," 
acknowledges Douds. "Commercial companies are working on this for their particular inocula." He smiles. We can only hope that he will be too.






OPX™
       e-letters to the e-editors
       news & research
       columnists
       gleanings
       1000 stories
       talking shop
       certification
       the pig page
       this farm life
       newsletters
       mid-atlantic marketing
       new farm japan

       FARM LOCATOR™



PRESS ROOM

Farmers: Is organic certification worth it?

CAST YOUR VOTE NOW

Stay Up-to-Date –
Sign up for our Newsletter

NewFarm.org changes daily! Don't miss out on the latest interactive features, columns and news. Sign up now for our monthly e-newsletter and 
stay connected.

ACTION ALERTS

• Save foundation seed stocks from GM contamination

• Support Saskatchewan farmers in efforts to block GM wheat

• Raise your voice against factory hog operations

Share Your Stories

Are you a farmer? A consumer? Whatever story you have to tell, let it be an inspiration to others.
Share it with us now...

T H E    N E W    F A R M – R E G E N E R A T I V E    A G R I C U L T U R E    W O R L D W I D E

©2004 The Rodale Institute® • PRIVACY POLICY • Design: www.homeworkdesign.com
Check out our other sites: The Rodale Institute® • Kidsregen.org




From - Sat May 15 13:14:06 2004
X-UIDL: 368617738
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from mailserv1.intrex.net [209.42.192.236] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-8.04) id A4ECE266001E; Sat, 15 May 2004 12:27:24 -0400
Received: by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix)
	id 8F8BEB2BB; Sat, 15 May 2004 12:27:24 -0400 (EDT)
Delivered-To: lfl@intrex.net
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75B31B2B4
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Sat, 15 May 2004 12:27:24 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (lists.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.235])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0534EB117
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Sat, 15 May 2004 12:27:24 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0006A5B3@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sat, 15 May 2004 12:27:15 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 70089 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sat, 15 May 2004 12:27:15 -0400
Received: from imo-m16.mx.aol.com by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT
          v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0006A5B0@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sat, 15 May 2004
          12:27:14 -0400
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-m16.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r1.3.)
          id d.155.34f28791 (16087) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sat, 15
          May 2004 12:27:06 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from  aol.com (mow-m09.webmail.aol.com [64.12.184.137]) by
          air-id10.mx.aol.com (v99_r4.3) with ESMTP id
          MAILINID104-3ed740a644da82; Sat, 15 May 2004 12:27:06 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0
X-AOL-IP: 24.21.158.7
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID:  <4CAD47D7.6E4E2A75.404D8829@aol.com>
Date:         Sat, 15 May 2004 12:27:06 -0400
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] soil amendments from composting v fermentation
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Virus-Scanned: by viruswatch at intrex.net
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@mail.intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 368617738

Anaerobic metabolism includes several metabolic pathways, and the different end products from the different pathways need to be differentiated, because some pathways end up with plant toxic materials being produced, while others do not.

However, all anaerobic processes result in significantly acidic organic acids being produced, which may or may not be a problem for your plants.  Depends on the plants being grown, right?  What pH do they need?

Those organisms that produce mainly lactic and proprionic acid as the main metabolic end products and do not produce hydrogen sulfide or ammonia.  They can make phosphine gas, however, which means your PO4 may be out-gassing.  So, a little sour smell to the process, some loss pf PO4, somewhat low pH metabolites produced.  This may not lower pH in hte pile much, since the acids mix with the organic matter that have a higher pH.

Most people use the term "fermentative metabolism" for these metabolic processes.  Wine and beer production use particular species that perform this type of anaerobic metabolism.  Can we call this kind of anaerobic metabolism fermentation, please.

As opposed to putrefaction.  Putrefactive processes make the really bad smells, because hydrogen sulfide production is a putrefactive process.  Ammonia is also produced, along with phosphine gas, and a host of really bad smelling organic acids, from vinegar (acetic acid) to vomit (valeric acid) to putrescine.  Alcohol is produced by the bacteria in significant quantities, high enough concentration to kill plant roots.  This can be a real problem if you use mulch that has suffered this kind of anaerobic metabolism.

Note that I do not call this compost, becasue it is not compost.

Putrefactive anaerobic conditions are what you want to avoid.  If the compost pile becomes anaerobic, you need to turn it or dilute the food resources to slow the bacteria and fungi down.  Bacteria and fungi can grow so fast that they use up most of the oxygen in the pile.  They use up the oxygen because they are growing on the foods in the pile so fast.  As they grow, they generate heat.

Thus, if you are careful to never let the pile go anaerobic, heat will tell you when to turn.  But if the pile goes anaerobic, then heat is not related to anything positive anymore.

Composting is by definition an AEROBIC process.  Worm compost has to be aerobic, because the worms require aerobic levels of oxygen.  But the lower layers in a worm compost can go anaerobic.  If that happens, the worms will no longer go down deep into the pile.

And it is the SUM of the pile that needs to be considered.  Pockets of the organic matter can have low oxygen, where the anaerobic metabolites will move into the aerobic areas, but as long as most of the pile is aerobic, the anaerobic metabolites get consumed by the aerobic organisms, and just help increase diversity in the pile.

What's the right balance to achieve a pile that is enough aerobic?  That's what the microbiology of compost course is about that I teach.  A couple students are involved right now in replicating the process so we have the solid, scientifically sound results to present.

Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
SFI Corvallis, OR
SFI Port Jefferson, NY
SFI Lismore, NSW, Australia
SFI Hilversum, The Netherlands
SFI Cambridge, New Zealand
SFI Culiacan, Mexico
SFI Jerome, Idaho
http://www.soilfoodweb.com

********************************************************
To unsubscribe from SANET-MG:
1- Visit http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html to unsubscribe or;
2- Send a message to <listserv@sare.org> from the address subscribed to the list. Type "unsubscribe sanet-mg" in the body of the message.

Visit the SANET-MG archives at: http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html
For more information on grants and other resources available through the SARE program, please visit http://www.sare.org.


From - Mon May 17 22:04:17 2004
X-UIDL: 368617965
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from mailserv1.intrex.net [209.42.192.236] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-8.04) id A320895A0096; Mon, 17 May 2004 18:56:32 -0400
Received: by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix)
	id 8DE22C664; Mon, 17 May 2004 18:56:32 -0400 (EDT)
Delivered-To: lfl@intrex.net
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E1E7C641
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Mon, 17 May 2004 18:56:32 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (lists.sare.org [128.227.242.235])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC8B1C604
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Mon, 17 May 2004 18:56:31 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0006AD75@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Mon, 17 May 2004 18:56:23 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 72275 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Mon, 17 May 2004 18:56:23 -0400
Received: from mail.ncat.org (209.137.246.130:2601) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu
          (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id
          <0.0006AD72@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Mon, 17 May 2004 18:56:23 -0400
Received: from ncat.org ([192.168.56.41]) (authenticated) by mail.ncat.org
          (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id i4HMuQl15436 for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Mon, 17 May 2004 16:56:26 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID:  <40A942AD.9020401@ncat.org>
Date:         Mon, 17 May 2004 17:54:37 -0500
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: Steve Diver <steved@NCAT.ORG>
Subject: [SANET-MG] Protozoa and plant growth: the microbial loop in soil revisited | New Phytologist
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Virus-Scanned: by viruswatch at intrex.net
X-Note: Total weight is 4. SUBJSPACES-10
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@mail.intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 368617965

Here is a new article in the prestigious Tansley Reviews series, from
New Phytologist, on protozoa and plant growth... to add to your
soil biota / soil foodweb toolbox.

Regards,

Steve Diver

****************************************************

Protozoa and plant growth: the microbial loop in soil revisited

A Tansley Review

New Phytologist
Volume 162 Issue 3 Page 617 - June 2004

Michael Bonkowski

Rhizosphere Ecology Group, Institut für Zoologie, Technische Universität
Darmstadt,
Darmstadt, Germany

http://dx.doi.org/10.1111/j.1469-8137.2004.01066.x
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/links/doi/10.1111/j.1469-8137.2004.01066.x/abs

Summary

I. The rhizosphere   interface of microbial and faunal interactions

II. Microfauna and plant growth

III. Victims and benefactors: how grazers affect bacterial community
composition

IV. Nonmotile plants with flexible strategies

V. Case study: root foraging and microfaunal activity

VI. Friend or foe? Microbial signals and the manipulation of root
architecture

VII. Carbon is the currency: microfauna interactions with mycorrhiza

VIII. The plant bridging above- and below-ground processes

IX. From microscale to macroscale: interactions at the plant community level

X. Conclusions and future research

Acknowledgements

References

****************************************************
****************************************************

********************************************************
To unsubscribe from SANET-MG:
1- Visit http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html to unsubscribe or;
2- Send a message to <listserv@sare.org> from the address subscribed to the list. Type "unsubscribe sanet-mg" in the body of the message.

Visit the SANET-MG archives at: http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html
For more information on grants and other resources available through the SARE program, please visit http://www.sare.org.


From - Thu May 20 11:59:08 2004
X-UIDL: 368618219
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv1.intrex.net [209.42.192.236] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-8.04) id AEA247D0062; Thu, 20 May 2004 11:28:34 -0400
Received: by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix)
	id D888DABAC; Thu, 20 May 2004 11:28:34 -0400 (EDT)
Delivered-To: lfl@intrex.net
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD0E6AB75
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Thu, 20 May 2004 11:28:34 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (lists.sare.org [128.227.242.235])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58156AB51
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Thu, 20 May 2004 11:28:34 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0006BBAB@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Thu, 20 May 2004 11:28:24 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 76398 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Thu, 20 May 2004 11:28:24 -0400
Received: from mail.ncat.org (209.137.246.130:4199) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu
          (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id
          <0.0006BBA7@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Thu, 20 May 2004 11:28:23 -0400
Received: from ncat.org ([192.168.56.41]) (authenticated) by mail.ncat.org
          (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id i4KFSQl01328; Thu, 20 May 2004 09:28:26
          -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID:  <40ACCE21.3040202@ncat.org>
Date:         Thu, 20 May 2004 10:26:26 -0500
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: Steve Diver <steved@NCAT.ORG>
Subject: [SANET-MG] Factors limiting persistence of entomopathogenic nematodes
Comments: To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Virus-Scanned: by viruswatch at intrex.net
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@mail.intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 368618219

This article is interesting from a soil biology perspective.

It showed that surface applied parasitic nematodes (intended
to provide biological control of turf pests) were probably just
eaten up by local predators; i.e., mites and collembola.

When the parasitic nematodes (known as "entomopathogenic"
nematodes) were incorporated into the soil, they survived
much better.

It seems like another opportunity for compost tea research;
i.e., integrated delivery of parasitic nematodes with compost
teas, to enhance survivial and efficacy of the biological control
treatment.

As a farmer or gardener who wants to use natural means
of pest control, you can use parasitic nematodes to control
pests like strawberry root weevil, sod webworms, cutworms,
flea beetles, and fungus gnats.

But when you spend all that money and time to rely on biocontrols,
you want them to be effective.

As you may be interested in what these parasitic nematodes
are all about, see this fantastic website that was also funded by
USDA-SARE.

Insect Parasitic Nematodes
http://www.oardc.ohio-state.edu/nematodes/

Regards,

Steve Diver


*********************************************************************

Factors limiting short-term persistence of entomopathogenic nematodes

M. Wilson and R. Gaugler

Department of Entomology, Rutgers University, New Brunswick, NJ

Journal of Applied Entomology
Volume 128 Issue 4 Page 250  - May 2004

http://dx.doi.org/10.1111/j.1439-0418.2004.00814.x

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/links/doi/10.1111/j.1439-0418.2004.00814.x/abs


Abstract:

Entomopathogenic nematodes are commonly applied to soil and crops for
biocontrol of insects. Typically, when nematodes are applied,
recoverable numbers decline quickly. Because ultra-violet light is known
to kill entomopathogenic nematodes in the laboratory, many researchers
blame poor field persistence on the action of ultra-violet light. We
conducted a field experiment to test this hypothesis, using
Heterorhabditis bacteriophora applied to turf as a model system. We
compared persistence of surface-applied nematodes with
subsurface-applied nematodes and found no difference in persistence.
Numbers of potential nematode antagonists (mites and collembola) were
also monitored. Poor persistence was positively correlated with numbers
of mites and collembola in plots where nematodes were surface-applied,
but not in plots where they were subsurface-applied.

*********************************************************************
*********************************************************************

********************************************************
To unsubscribe from SANET-MG:
1- Visit http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html to unsubscribe or;
2- Send a message to <listserv@sare.org> from the address subscribed to the list. Type "unsubscribe sanet-mg" in the body of the message.

Visit the SANET-MG archives at: http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html
For more information on grants and other resources available through the SARE program, please visit http://www.sare.org.


From - Mon Jun 07 13:19:54 2004
X-UIDL: 368619200
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from mailserv1.intrex.net [209.42.192.236] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-8.04) id A3941560150; Mon, 07 Jun 2004 11:02:44 -0400
Received: by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix)
	id 7BD42BB74; Mon,  7 Jun 2004 11:02:44 -0400 (EDT)
Delivered-To: lfl@intrex.net
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D9A7BB57
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Mon,  7 Jun 2004 11:02:44 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from n32.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n32.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.100])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 55248B8FA
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Mon,  7 Jun 2004 11:02:42 -0400 (EDT)
X-eGroups-Return: sentto-7527208-9018-1086620560-lfl=intrex.net@returns.groups.yahoo.com
Received: from [66.218.66.28] by n32.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Jun 2004 15:02:41 -0000
X-Sender: Soilfoodweb@aol.com
X-Apparently-To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Received: (qmail 75777 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2004 15:02:39 -0000
Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172)
  by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jun 2004 15:02:39 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m14.mx.aol.com) (64.12.138.204)
  by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jun 2004 15:02:39 -0000
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com
	by imo-m14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id r.59.dc3ca5f (15888)
	 for <compost_tea@yahoogroups.com>; Mon, 7 Jun 2004 11:02:06 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from  aol.com (mow-d26.webmail.aol.com [205.188.139.167]) by air-id08.mx.aol.com (v99_r4.8) with ESMTP id MAILINID83-3e1040c4836e396; Mon, 07 Jun 2004 11:02:06 -0400
To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Message-ID: <6D721659.4F7AE3CF.404D8829@aol.com>
X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0
X-AOL-IP: 24.21.158.7
X-AOL-Language: english
X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.138.204
From: soilfoodweb@aol.com
X-Yahoo-Profile: soilfoodweb
MIME-Version: 1.0
Mailing-List: list compost_tea@yahoogroups.com; contact compost_tea-owner@yahoogroups.com
Delivered-To: mailing list compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Precedence: bulk
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:compost_tea-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 11:02:06 -0400
Subject: Re: [compost_tea] Re: Re: Aged manure?
Reply-To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Virus-Scanned: by viruswatch at intrex.net
X-Note: Total weight is 1. NOABUSE
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@mail.intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 368619200

<html><body>


<tt>
Hi Kirk - <BR>
<BR>
If you don't like the confusion in which the world of composting is stuck, then be part of the solution, instead of continuing to confuse the situation. <BR>
<BR>
It doesn't help the world of composting if you are not willing to define things clearly.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Compost has to have been processed properly.&nbsp; That term MUST be reserved to mean something specific.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
I don't care that some people have applied the definition incorrectly.&nbsp; Start using the the term correctly, now, and you will begin to help instead of hinder.<BR>
<BR>
Aged manure - if it has been composted, then call it compost.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
If manure has NOT been composted, then call it aged manure if it has sat around for a time.&nbsp; How long?&nbsp; What are the conditions that define aged manure becoming.... soil?&nbsp; When might manure sit long enough, with adequate microbial processes, that it now becomes soil?<BR>
<BR>
But if it is processed in that fashion, it is not compost.&nbsp; Stop trying to muddy the waters and call it compost.&nbsp; Stop with the some people do it this way, others that and isn't it all compost?&nbsp; It is NOT compost unless specific conditions&nbsp; are met.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
If dung beetles have processed manure, then perhaps there is no difference between dung-processed material and earthworm castings.&nbsp; But how would you KNOW?<BR>
<BR>
I would love it if Pat and Dick Richardson would document that.&nbsp; It would be useful to get dung beetles recognized as having a commercial importance.&nbsp; Pat and Dick have done so much for getting dung beetles as recognized as they are today, but there is still a great deal that needs doing!&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
What terms that could be developed for all the permutations of partially composted material?&nbsp; HELP the world of compost by coming up with the categories, defining them clearly, working to develop a consensus, and developing the scientific database that is needed to define these semi-composted materials. <BR>
<BR>
Compost should be defined based on the starting materials used, and on the biological and chemical composition of the final product.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
IF we had data, we might be able to say that with a mix of certain starting materials, the final product ALWAYS has this biology and this chemistry.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Kirk, I appreciate that you want the NOSB to do a better job, but the limits of the DATA are what push the NOSB and the USDA to their attitudes.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Provide DATA that show that E. coli do not survive in thermal compost, in aged manure, in partically-composted materials (come up with better terms than that for each of the situations you want to have considered), in worm caste, produced under whatever conditions.&nbsp; Define the conditions. <BR>
<BR>
Do not try to make one study, the Eastman study, in the limited conditions of that study, suffice for all worm compost made everywhere.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
If you can't afford to run experiments that show what happens to human pathogens in all these different conditions of storing waste material, or show what happens to helminths when you treat wastes with worms, or dung beetles, or by heating with micrcobes, please recognize that you rely on rapid microbial growth to do the job.&nbsp; But who herds the microbes?&nbsp; Is it a turner, or worms, or dung bettles or enchytraeids doing the microbe herding?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Define what you are talking about, help put this information into a useful form.&nbsp; Otherwise, you just keep spinning your wheels, getting nowhere.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Define the kinds of composting, the kinds of storage.&nbsp; If you can't do the work, then read and put together a summary of all the data on composting.&nbsp; That would help give a basis from which to start a series of experiments.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Put together categories, define the categories that you think would encompass your problems, and do some literature work.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
You put that together, and then I'll put together the proposal to submit to a funding agency to get the work done.&nbsp; I don't have the time to do the lit research.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
I'm asking for help, Kirk, or anyone else out there wanting to work on this.&nbsp; Do the lit reviews, do the summarization, and define what you think are the important categories based on the knowledge we have.&nbsp; Hopefully, while you do that, I can publish the data I do have.&nbsp; We can then develop the next proposal.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
There just isn't enough time in a day for me to get to teh literature review.&nbsp; Especiaily since I try to answer questions on this list.&nbsp; Which is most important?&nbsp; Answering questions here, publishing data, or continuing to help growers do the biological conversion?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
All of the above.&nbsp; Then please help by getting the literature&nbsp; reviewed.&nbsp; Let us ALL work out the categories of what we think is important.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Will that be a great discussion!&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Hand off back to you, Kirk!&nbsp; Willing to work on this on the compost tea list?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Elaine Ingham<BR>
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.<BR>
SFI Corvallis, OR<BR>
SFI Port Jefferson, NY<BR>
SFI Lismore, NSW, Australia<BR>
SFI Hilversum, The Netherlands<BR>
SFI Cambridge, New Zealand<BR>
SFI Culiacan, Mexico<BR>
SFI Jerome, Idaho<BR>
<a href="http://www.soilfoodweb.com">http://www.soilfoodweb.com</a><BR>
</tt>


<br>

<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->

<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC>
<td align=center><font size="-1" color=#003399><b>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor</b></font></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFFF>
<td align=center width=470><table border=0 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0> <tr> <td align=center><font face=arial size=-2>ADVERTISEMENT</font><br><a href="http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=12949gt90/M=298184.5022502.6152625.3001176/D=groups/S=1707418612:HM/EXP=1086706961/A=2164331/R=0/SIG=11eaelai9/*http://www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60183351" alt=""><img src="http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/ne/netflix/yhoo0504_testb_300250a052604.gif" alt="click here" width="300" height="250" border="0"></a></td></tr></table> </td>
</tr>
<tr><td><img alt="" width=1 height=1 src="http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.5022502.6152625.3001176/D=groups/S=:HM/A=2164331/rand=784780596"></td></tr>
</table>

<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->



<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->

<br>
<tt><hr width="500">
<b>Yahoo! Groups Links</b><br>
<ul>
<li>To visit your group on the web, go to:<br><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/compost_tea/">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/compost_tea/</a><br>&nbsp;
<li>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<br><a href="mailto:compost_tea-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe">compost_tea-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</a><br>&nbsp;
<li>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms of Service</a>.
</ul>
</tt>
</br>

<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->


</body></html>



From - Mon Jun 28 20:32:23 2004
X-UIDL: 368620837
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from mailserv1.intrex.net [209.42.192.236] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-8.04) id A9E4862C00E4; Mon, 28 Jun 2004 18:21:24 -0400
Received: by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix)
	id 1B255CB5C; Mon, 28 Jun 2004 18:21:24 -0400 (EDT)
Delivered-To: lfl@intrex.net
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2659C814
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Mon, 28 Jun 2004 18:21:23 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from enviroserver.envirolink.org (enviroserver.envirolink.org [208.40.195.228])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 93DA2CB07
	for <lfl@intrex.net>; Mon, 28 Jun 2004 18:21:23 -0400 (EDT)
Received: (qmail 24019 invoked from network); 28 Jun 2004 22:24:25 -0000
Received: from localhost.localdomain (HELO enviroserver.envirolink.org) (127.0.0.1)
  by localhost.localdomain with SMTP; 28 Jun 2004 22:24:25 -0000
Received: (qmail 24009 invoked from network); 28 Jun 2004 22:24:23 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO mail.ncat.org) (root@209.137.246.130)
	by 208.40.195.228 with SMTP; 28 Jun 2004 22:24:23 -0000
Received: from ncat.org ([192.168.56.41]) (authenticated)
	by mail.ncat.org (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id i5SMLEb19874
	for <bdnow@envirolink.org>; Mon, 28 Jun 2004 16:21:14 -0600
Message-ID: <40E09945.2050204@ncat.org>
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 17:18:45 -0500
From: Steve Diver <steved@ncat.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Biodynamic Food and Farming Discussion <bdnow@envirolink.org>
Subject: Re: BD Now! Compost turners
References: <00fa01c45c08$ffdbdfb0$b401a8c0@GLEN>	<011d01c45d47$934c9f70$6401a8c0@louise8r29y4or>
	<5.2.1.1.2.20040628225549.01aaa6f8@mail.onetel.net.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-BeenThere: bdnow@envirolink.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5
Precedence: list
Reply-To: Biodynamic Food and Farming Discussion <bdnow@envirolink.org>
List-Id: Biodynamic Food and Farming Discussion <bdnow.envirolink.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow>,
	<mailto:bdnow-request@envirolink.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/private/bdnow>
List-Post: <mailto:bdnow@envirolink.org>
List-Help: <mailto:bdnow-request@envirolink.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow>,
	<mailto:bdnow-request@envirolink.org?subject=subscribe>
Sender: bdnow-bounces@envirolink.org
Errors-To: bdnow-bounces@envirolink.org
X-Virus-Scanned: by viruswatch at intrex.net
X-Declude-Sender: bdnow-bounces@envirolink.org [208.40.195.228]
X-Note: Total weight is 0. None
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@mail.intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 368620837

Yes, the little self-propelled is a Sandberger turner.  The whole page
is in the tradition of Luebke compost and Sandberger turners, from
the compost fleece to the temperature and CO2 chart showing
Breakdown and Buildup phases.

In Europe, contact:

Sandberger
http://www.sandberger.com/englisch/start.html

Compara.nl
http://www.compara.nl/
http://www.compara.nl/engels.shtml

In the U.S., George Leidig with Autrusa/Imants USA
carries the smaller turners.

Do not look at the web page and assume that what you
see is all you get. You have to inquire about the smaller
turners.   I have slides of a little compost turner that
attaches to a bobcat-like mini-tractor.   It was in use at
a market-farm greenhouse in Bavaria.  It was sweet.  The
greenhouse grower and market farmer, who based the whole
operation on quality compost, was happy with the compost turner.

It so happens that I have the most comprehensive paper on
Luebke compost, also known as controlled microbial compost.
Luebke compost is geared to premium-grade, well humified, compost
that has clay-humus microbiology and overall consistent quality.  

There is a prominent biodynamic CSA that uses a Sandberger
turner and BD preps to make BD compost.  

You can also make Luebke compost with a pitch fork, you
just make smaller windrows.  It is the process of management
and amendments that achieves this type of clay-humus crumb.
But it is more intensive than what many farmers can afford to
spend time on.  

For small-scale composting, you can also use a manure spreader
and two tractors.  You PTO-operate the manure spreader with
one tractor, and load the feedstock into the manure spreader
with the second tractor.  It mixes the material and lays it out
onto a windrow.   But thereafter, you will need to turn with a
bucket, or repeat the process.  It amounts to a major hassle
compared to a bonafied compost turner.

Manure forks that clamp onto the end of a bucket loader, can
turn a bucket-loading tractor into a compost turning machine,
much better than one without the tines.

Steve Diver


Arjen Huese wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I am doing some research in finding out where to find affordable 
> compost turners for small scale compost (windrow) turning. Does 
> anybody have any suggestions?
>
> I found this website with a picture of an electrically powered small 
> scale windrow turner: 
> http://www.ncl.ac.uk/tcoa/projects/compostpotsveg.htm
> but it doesn't say anything about where it comes from. Does anybody 
> recognise it?
>
> Cheers
>
> Arjen Huese
>



_______________________________________________
BDNow mailing list
BDNow@envirolink.org
You can unsubscribe or change your options at:
http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow


From - Wed Aug 18 09:14:50 2004
X-UIDL: 368624969
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv1.intrex.net [209.42.192.236] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-8.04) id ADF5F783014E; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 07:31:01 -0400
Received: by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix)
	id 9A488B447; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 07:31:01 -0400 (EDT)
Delivered-To: lfl@intrex.net
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E9B0B42F
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 07:31:01 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (lists.sare.org [128.227.242.235])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B488B37A
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 07:31:01 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from srvtask (lists.sare.org) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00082827@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 7:30:45 -0400
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 81782 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Wed, 18 Aug 2004 07:30:45 -0400
Received: from hotmail.com (bay24-f20.bay24.hotmail.com) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu
          (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id
          <0.00082824@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 7:30:44 -0400
Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed,
          18 Aug 2004 04:30:44 -0700
Received: from 203.131.112.82 by by24fd.bay24.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed,
          18 Aug 2004 11:30:43 GMT
X-Originating-IP: [203.131.112.82]
X-Originating-Email: [gil_carandang@hotmail.com]
X-Sender: gil_carandang@hotmail.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Aug 2004 11:30:44.0303 (UTC)
                       FILETIME=[CCAF45F0:01C48516]
Message-ID:  <BAY24-F208QDacBT3Um0003fe7f@hotmail.com>
Date:         Wed, 18 Aug 2004 11:30:43 +0000
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: gil carandang <gil_carandang@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: [SANET-MG] HerbanaFarmsPhilippines new website
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Virus-Scanned: by viruswatch at intrex.net
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.242.235]
X-Note: Total weight is 3. COUNTRIES
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@mail.intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 368624969

hi all|
you can now visit our website: "www.herbanafarmsphilippines.com"
thanks,
gil carandang
herbana farms
philippines

_________________________________________________________________
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963

********************************************************
To unsubscribe from SANET-MG:
1- Visit http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html to unsubscribe or;
2- Send a message to <listserv@sare.org> from the address subscribed to the list. Type "unsubscribe sanet-mg" in the body of the message.

Visit the SANET-MG archives at: http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html
For more information on grants and other resources available through the SARE program, please visit http://www.sare.org.


From - Wed Dec 22 10:27:59 2004
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02800000
Message-ID: <41C9BCAD.6090205@intrex.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 10:27:57 -0800
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
Organization: http://market-farming.com  --  Venaura Farm
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.1) Gecko/20040707
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To:  lfl@intrex.net
Subject: [permaculture] Ana Primavesi, ecological soil scientist in Brazil
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


<http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/2004-July/019978.html>
Steve Diver steved at ncat.org
Sat Jul 3 22:27:15 EDT 2004

     * Previous message: [permaculture] permaculture and spirituality
     * Next message: [permaculture] re:permaculture and spirituality
     * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ]

The items below highlight Dr. Ana Primavesi's contributions to
ecological soil management in South America.

Ana Primavesi is a Brazilian soil scientist who has authored several
key books on sustainable soils and pature management as well as hundreds
of articles, yet little is published in English. The resource pointers
and links to English-language material in this resource listing provide
sufficient information to gain appreciation for her work and also to
connect several threads of interest together on soil organic matter
management, Effective Microorganisms, and life force energy in healthy
crops as measured by kirlian photography.

Best regards,

Steve Diver
http://www.attra.ncat.org

**********************************************************

1.1 Nutrient Levels in Ecologically Managed Soils

In January 2002 I sent notes to SANET on Roland Bunch's paper
containing the Five Principles of Soil Management for the Humid
Tropics.

Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 22:58:14 -0600
Subject: No-till, Rolf Derpsch, Roland Bunch's 5 Principles, MOIST
http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0201&L=sanet-mg&P=R23947&I=-3

At the time the emphasis of my notes were on the benefits of the
no-till approach. It contained Bunch's soil management principles
-- maximize organic matter production, keep the soil covered with
green manures and cover crop mulches, zero tillage, maximize
biodiversity, and feed crops largely through mulches.

The links to Roland Bunch's papers are noteworthy

Nutrient Quantity or Nutrient Access?: A New Understanding of How
to Maintain Soil Fertility in the Tropics
By Roland Bunch, October 2001
HTML Abstract:
http://ppathw3.cals.cornell.edu/mba_project/moist/RolandB.html

Bunch's paper in PDF; 19 pages
http://ppathw3.cals.cornell.edu/mba_project/moist/Roland.pdf

Bunch refers to Ana Primavesi's "earth-shaking book", "The Ecological
Management of Soils" (in Spanish & Portuguese) as the inspiration for
this paper.

The paper addresses the failure of the Nutrient Quantity Concept -- the
dominate Western scientific agriculture paradigm -- to work on tropical
soils where many of the world's poor and small-scale farmers live. The
NQC is the typical nutrient sufficiency approach: determine soil nutrient
levels through a soil test and fertilize up to the standard level to
ensure nutrient availability, in order to reach crop yield goals.

But the NQC approach does not account for the long-term sustained yields
on tropical soils managed with organic amendments such as biomass-producing
cover crops and green manures, nor does it take into account the biological
and physical impacts of cover crop roots, soil organisms, and decomposing
mulches. According to NQC, limiting nutrients should limit crop yields,
but that is not the case. In fact, fertilizing "up" to the supposed levels
needed for NQC are adding excess nutrients; in addition, organic
matter practices tend to be neglected in NQC as "fertility management"
is focused on fertilizer inputs.

As an alternative to NQC, Roland Bunch introduces the work of Ana Primavesi
and describes what he calls the Nutrient Access Concept. He explains why
NAC -- and Primavesi's research that elucidates the framework for NAC -- is
more appropriate as a soil fertility model for ecologically managed soils.

Primavesi's research with hydroponically grown corn showed that nutrient
solutions at 1/50th the standard NAC application rate can provide equivalent
plant growth, as long as the nutrient solution was in constant supply and
roots could access the nutrients.

Bunch states, "That is, crop growth above a certain extremely low
concentration, does not depend on the concentration of nutrients. It
depends, rather, on the constant access of plant roots to the nutrients,
even when these nutrients exist in very low concentrations. The Nutrient
Quantity Concept's remedy of increasing the concentration of nutrients
by applying large amounts of chemical fertilizer misses the point almost
entirely. What is needed is a constant supply of even a very small but
well balanced amount of nutrients over time, and the unobstructed access
of plant roots to these nutrients."

Further, he lists the following principles of the Nutrient Access Concept
of soil fertility for the tropics:

Maximum plant growth can best and most cheaply be achieved in the
tropics by:

1) the constant supply of soil nutrients (most inexpensively achieved with
fairly low concentrations),

2) a healthy balance between the nutrients, and

3) maximum access of plant roots to these nutrients (i.e. the maintenance
of good soil structure and/or mulches)

Interestingly, the farming system examples that Bunch provides in support
of NAC include the underlying factors that are familiar to sustainable
farmers. They highlight the "five principles of soil management for
the humid tropics; i.e., they maximize organic matter production, they
keep the soil covered with green manures and cover crop mulches,
they reduce tillage, they maximize biodiversity, and they feed crops
largely through mulches.

Included among these examples are: gm/cc (green manure/cover crops) and
agroforestry systems, SRI (System of Rice Intensification), fallowing,
and rainforest ecosystems.

The relevance of NAC in SRI is particularly succinct, and Bunch refers
to this paper by Norman Uphoff:

Questions and Answers about the System of Rice Intensification
(SRI) For Raising the Productivity of Land, Labor, and Water
Norman Uphoff, Cornell Intl Inst for Food, Agriculture and Development
http://ciifad.cornell.edu/sri/qanda.pdf

Upfhoff also remarks on the ground-breaking work of Ana Primavesi,
supporting the view "that plants can have normal growth with very
low concentrations of nutrients provided that there is constant supply
to the root system." He suggests "there will be compensating growth
of roots, so that small amounts are continuously accessed to support
growth of the canopy and further roots.

This statement from Uphoff grabbed my attention: "The beneficial effects
of using compost would be consistent with this understanding, as it
releases its nutrients very slowly even if they are not provided in
large amounts."

All in all, none of this is really new to sustainable farmers who
practice organic matter management and observe healthy plants,
focusing on a holistic approach rather than a NPK fertilizer
approach. Not that Roland Bunch or sustainable farmers neglects
the value of soil tests or supplementation / remineralization
with rock minerals, as he clearly states.

But the NAC concepts and practices that Bunch describes do lend support
to a more holistic approach to ecological soil management that goes
beyond nutrient sufficiency and NPK fertilizers as the bellwether of
modern agriculture. In addition, it highlights the contributions of
Ana Premavesi, and especially the notion that small concentrations
of nutrients in constant supply can be adequate for good crop yields,
such as those from slow-release organic fertilizers, composts,
gm/cc mulches, and worm- and microbe-decomposing organic residues.


1.2

Interestingly, in re-examining Ana Primavesi's research in this new
light I recall a very similar statement from Mark McMurtry, when
he delivered a visiting lecture on integrated aqua-vegetable culture
at the University of Arkansas in the early 1990s. He was invited to
the UA by Gordon Watkins, a well known local organic farmer who was
interested in this integrated approach that is now widely known as
aquaponics.

McMurtry's research with Doug Sanders at North Carolina State University
resulted in great impact on integrated recirculating aquaculture and
hydroponics. The modern aquaponic industry has grown and succeeded,
largely through modifications and elaborations to the earlier NCSU
system.  Aquaponics is now one of the leading examples of a
sustainable food producing system. As water becomes scare and limiting,
it is especially noteworthy as a biological filtration treatment and
water re-use system.

McMurtry stated that a low concentration nutrient level is adequate for
plant growth, as long as the nutrient is in constant supply. This would
be the case in fish effluent -- with low concentrations of nutrients from
fish manure, algae, and decomposing fish feed -- diluted into a large
volume of water. Yet, plants and the microbial populations living amongst
the plant roots and hydroponic (gravel, sand) substrate respond to
these nutrients with a flourish. As I recall, McMurtry even stated that
nitrate at 1 ppm could be adequate for plant growth, in constant
supply (though concentrations of 20 ppm on upwards are common).

McMurtry, Mark Richard. 1992. Integrated Aquaculture-Olericulture
System as Influenced by Component Ratio. Ph.D. Thesis, North
Carolina State University.


2.1 Kirlian photography and life force energy

Some years ago I heard about an IFOAM presentation from Brazil that
displayed infra-red hot spots on leaves (similar to Phil Callahan's work),
supporting the notion that improperly fertilized plants "attract" insects.

In recent research, I learned this Brazilian research was done by
Ana Primavesi. It turns out that it was kirlian photography, examining
magnetic emanations from plants.

Dr. Ana Primavesi is a well known Brazilian soils scientist who has
published extensively on ecological agriculture, including the prominent
book "Manejo Ecologico del Suelo: Le Agriculture en Regiones
Tropicales."

To evaluate the effects of a biological inoculation system (EM, or
Effective Microorganisms) on plant health, through her work with the
Mokiti Okada Foundation in Brazil, Primavesi employed the use of
kirlian photography to examine variations in magnetic fields in crop
plants, based on different treatments.

Results showed that with nutritional unbalances, plants suffer a very
strong energy loss, reducing their resistance to insects and diseases.
When plants are attacked by insect pests, they exhibit an extremely
high energy loss. Kirlian photography can provide clues to crop
quality and biological value in addition to plant nutritional status.

Determination of Plant Health by their Magnetic Emanation and its
Improvement with EM
Ana Maria Primavesi | EM Database
http://www.emtech.org/data/pdf/0146.pdf

Plant Energy Field Related to Health and EM treatment
Ana Primavesi
IFOAM '96 Book of Abstracts | 11th IFOAM Scientific Conference
http://ecoweb.dk/english/ifoam/conf96/abs143.htm


2.2

Life force energy is a term that you find in bio-dynamics, nature
farming, eco-farming, and related alternative farming systems
that recognize that physics and subtle energy -- in its many
forms within and beyond the electro-magnetic spectrum -- are
part and parcel of agriculture. These include defined and measurable
energies, such as the life force energy displayed through kirlian
photography.

This site in particular has spectacular kirlian photography that are
both fascinating and revealing. Especially see the images of healthy
leaves from vitalized crops and the images of plant leaves lacking
vitality.

Kirlian photography | Mitchell May | Synergy superfoods
http://www.synergy-co.com/pages/kirlianphotos.html

It would be interesting to measure the life force energy in the crops
and livestock that are found in our food supply, on our university
farms, in the corporate agricultural sector that are the model of
"success" for globalized agriculture and GMOs.

Then, compare the life force energy from crops and livestock raised
on bio-dynamic farms, nature farms, and eco-farms.

Likewise, using sensitive instrumentation to measure biophotons
Fritz-Popp found significant differences in biophoton light emissions
in organically raised eggs and fresh produce vs. conventional food
products.


3.1 Related EM Papers from Ana Primavesi

The EM Database, hosted at EM Technology Network, contains more
than 600 research reports and conference papers. These include
papers from the International Conferences on Kyusei Nature Farming,
EM symposiums, field trials, and unpublished manuscripts.

The following papers from Ana Primavesi are notable because few
English-language papers are available among the hundreds of
articles she has written in Portuguese. Moreover, she is Science
Counselor for the Mokiti Okada Foundation in Brazil, which
conducts EM research.

Comparison of the Effect of EM and other Bacterial and Mineral
Products on Bean Yield
http://www.emtech.org/data/pdf/0587.pdf

EM and Its Effects on Citrus
http://www.emtech.org/data/pdf/0623.pdf

Effect of Microbial Inoculants and Mineral Elements on Drought
Resistance and Yield of Field Bean
http://www.emtech.org/data/pdf/0078.pdf

Seed Treatment With EM and Micronutrients for Controlling Rice
and Maize Diseases
http://www.emtech.org/data/pdf/0095.pdf

EM Technology and Organic Matter Amendments in the Tropics
http://www.emtech.org/data/pdf/0565.pdf

Effect of Lactobacillus Inoculants, Organic Amendments and
Mineral Elements on Yield of Onion and Field Bean
http://www.emtech.org/data/pdf/0079.pdf

Effect of EM on the Growth and Yield of Rice and Beans
http://www.emtech.org/data/pdf/0005.pdf

Quantity of EM-4 which may be Applied to a Soil with
3% of Organic Matter
http://www.emtech.org/data/pdf/884dranaprimavesi.pdf


3.2 LEISA papers from Ana Primavesi

ILEIA, a Centre for Information on Low External Input and
Sustainable Agriculture, published ILEIA newsletter and now
publishes LEISA magazine. LEISA is one of the top magazines
in ecological agriculture.

LEISA Magazine, volume 18
Issue 1 - Livestock
Optimising climate-soil-pasture-cattle interactions in Brazil
Ana Primavesi and Odo Primavesi
http://www.leisa.info/index.php?url=article-details.tpl&p[_id]=12564
[http://tinyurl.com/22vft]

LEISA Magazine, volume 15
Issue 3+4 - Agrobiodiversity
More rice with good soil fertility management
Ana Primavesi
http://www.leisa.info/index.php?url=article-details.tpl&p[_id]=12358
[http://tinyurl.com/2sgxy]

ILEIA Newsletter v.6 no.3 (October 1990) p.8-9
Soil life and chemical fertilizers
Ana Primavesi
http://www.leisa.info/index.php?url=library-details.tpl&p[readOnly]=1&p[_id]=49694
[http://tinyurl.com/26jrp]

3.3 Soil, Food and People Conference, South America

Ecology Action, home of John Jeavons and the Biointensive Mini-Farming
system, will host a South American version of the Soil, Food and People
Conference, September 28 - October 1, 2004 in Costa Rica.

Soil, Food and People Conference, South America
http://www.growbiointensive.org/costa-rica-conference/index.html

Some of the well known soil scientists, agronomists, and ecological
farmers who will speak include Ana Primavesi, John Doran, Dominique
Guillete, Don Lotter, John Jeavons, Steve Moore, Reinhold Muschler,
Guillermo Romero Ibarrola, Ricardo Romero, and others.

"Ana Primavesi, Brazil, is a retired Agronomist and a PhD in Soil
Management and Crop Nutrition. She is also a Science Counselor
for the Mokiti Okada Foundation, author and a contributor to
technical newspapers, a founding member of the Organic Agriculture
Society in Brazil, of MAELA in Latin America and of
IFOAM--Latin America."

From - Sat Apr 02 11:33:54 2005
X-UIDL: 368646865
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from mailserv1.intrex.net [209.42.192.236] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-8.04) id AFE286F0024; Sat, 02 Apr 2005 09:44:50 -0500
Received: by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix)
	id 3233DABA1; Sat,  2 Apr 2005 09:44:50 -0500 (EST)
Delivered-To: lfl@intrex.net
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14BBEAB65
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Sat,  2 Apr 2005 09:44:50 -0500 (EST)
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (lists.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.252.37])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F9CDAA0C
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Sat,  2 Apr 2005 09:44:48 -0500 (EST)
Received: from if-srv-listsrv (128.227.252.37:4099) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.000CF29F@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 9:43:50 -0500
Received: from LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP
          release 1.8e) with spool id 176356 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU;
          Sat, 2 Apr 2005 09:43:47 -0500
Received: from tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for
          Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.000CF296@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sat,
          2 Apr 2005 9:43:47 -0500
Received: from dell4100 ([65.93.180.44]) by tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net
          (InterMail vM.5.01.06.10 201-253-122-130-110-20040306) with ESMTP id
          <20050402144353.NFQM27508.tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net@dell4100>; Sat,
          2 Apr 2005 09:43:53 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001B_01C53768.712CB910"
X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180
Thread-Index: AcU3klkGdYvtBn57TQC7zDjEGxNBeA==
Message-ID:  <20050402144353.NFQM27508.tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net@dell4100>
Date:         Sat, 2 Apr 2005 09:43:35 -0500
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: Frank Teuton <fteuton@SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: [SANET-MG] Composting versus soil application of organic residues--a second look
Comments: To: jgruv@hotmail.com
Comments: cc: dschellinger@agcenter.lsu.edu
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
X-Virus-Scanned: by viruswatch at intrex.net
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.252.37]
X-Note: Total weight is 4. COUNTRIES, SPAMHEADERS
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@mail.intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 368646865

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C53768.712CB910
Content-Type: text/plain;
        charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Back in 1998, Joel Gruver made the following post to SANET:



http://www.sare.org/sanet-mg/archives/html-home/28-html/0043.html



Hello to all...
Last year, Dr. Ray Weil and 5 grad students at the U of MD (including
myself) pondered the difference between OM stabilization
in a composting system prior to soil application as compared to the
direct application of undecomposed OM to soil.
We assembled an extensive literature review that we intended to submit for
publication but we never quite finished it... we investigated this issue
from several angles... we considered long term C sequestration, effects
on plant availability of micro and macro nutrients, effects on soil
structure and effects on disease suppresion.

My focus was on soil structural effects... in a nutshell, the process
of decomposition/microbial activity is very important to aggregate
formation and stabilization... a majority of studies seemed to show that
more labile organic substrates had greater formation and stabilization
effects (both short and long term in some cases) than materials that were
more recalcitrant like a mature compost...

The issue of differences in carbon sequestration was not discussed in many
articles... I continue to ponder this issue and I tend to feel that
decomposition in intimate contact with mineral surfaces is a very
important feature in the formation of chemically and physically protected
soil organic matter. Thus I think that unless you are adding lots of
soil/clay to your compost you will be losing more C than if you let the
decompostion take place on or in soil. However tilling/incorporating
materials into soil, fractures aggregates, increases soil aeration... and
thus promotes loss of indigenous SOM... its a tricky question...
I think the reduced volume, and homogenized consistency of good compost
makes it a superior material for handling and that is very desireable for
farmers...

Our literature sits almost finished somewhere in Dr. Weils office... I
suppose we could send an unfinished copy to someone with a deep interest
in the subject...

Joel Gruver
U of MD, Soil Quality research



Other folks joined in, including Steve Diver and Cary Oshins; this was the
post that seemed to get things started:

http://www.sare.org/sanet-mg/archives/html-home/28-html/0037.html

> Dan Hemenway wrote:
> Well, I enjoyed Steve's informed rant on buckwheat and P, though I
disagree
> with several points. I'll mention a few:
>............stuff deleted..........
> * I disagree with the strong emphasis on composting separate from
> the general soil activities. In my view, composting is something I
> need to do when I lack a more direct means to apply organic matter to
> my permaculture system or if there is something wrong with the
> material to be composted (e.g. pathogens). There are vital pulses in
> soil chemistry that are short circuited by removing the composting
> operation from the soil in general. If you apply P-bearing materials
> to the surface (bone meal, phosphate rock, etc.) and apply mulch,
> sheet mulch except when inappropriate, the P will be released at
> exactly the zone where plant roots gather nutrients. (See Vol. I,
> #3, of the International Permaculture Solutions Journal). The same
> is true of other rock powders (with the same reservations), etc.

On the topic on sheet mulch composting in place versus composting
in piles or windrows, I'd say it depends on the situation. The
method you described certainly works. Worms like that type of
mulch and decay. In practice, it seems limited to home gardens
and small-scale market gardens.

The benefits and uses of compost as a stable humus product
containing numerous exchange sites and microbials are well known.

I came across the following Sanet post by Ann Clark back in 1995,
that contains some relevant ideas. Here it is again.

Steve Diver

>From: "E. Ann Clark, Associate Professor"
>Organization: Crop Science, The Univ. of Guelph
>To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu
>Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 09:57:06 EDT
>Subject: Re: Humus -- rural -> urban -> rural
>Priority: normal

Responding to Dick R. on the issue of composting. Just curious about
the comment that it is better if composting occurs in the soil. Just
finished an M.Sc. student doing a study on composting and we didn't
come across this idea in the lit. I'd be interested in learning what
it is that is more beneficial about composting in-situ - in the soil -
as against ahead of time. Evidence from the literature?


Conventional organic wisdom hereabouts sees placement of raw manure
directly into the soil as a net negative, because of a) rapid release
of N which destabilizes cycling, b) VFA's which can be caustic, and c)
potential for anaerobic decomposition when high moisture substrate
(whether animal manure or direct cut red clover) is plowed into the
soil. As an example, they recommend cutting and wilting red clover
plowdown before plowing it in, to avoid this problem.

Good points on "waste" management at landfills! Ann
ACLARK@crop.uoguelph.ca
Dr. E. Ann Clark
Associate Professor
Crop Science
University of Guelph



Steve Diver's follow up post added the following points:

http://www.sare.org/sanet-mg/archives/html-home/28-html/0045.html

"There's a little-known but valuable publication from Wallace
Laboratores titled "Soil Conditioner and Amendment Technologies,
Volume 1," which is more or less a collection of articles originally
published in a special issue -- Sustainability of the Soil and The
Environment -- of Communications in Soil Science and Plant Analysis.

One of the articles titled "Compost and Composting: Facts
and Myths" gets into composting vs soil application.

Selected excerpts:

"Most people think that making compost is to create fertilizer.
Other people use composting to creat a potting soil. Ten other
reasons for so-called composting are...

1. to decrease the volume of waste, especially for going into
landfills,
2. to decrease odors,
3. to kill pathogens and weed seeds,
4. to create more favorable carbon:nitrogen ratios so as to not
induce nitrogen deficiencies in crops,
5. to destroy natural toxins like tannins and allelopathic
compounds,
6. to decrease levels of synthetic pesticides that may be in organic
waste by partial if not complete decomposition of them,
7. to provide a means for making iron and other micronutrients
available to plants,
8. to impart to soil a mechanism for retarding soil-borne diseases
nematodes,
9. to make a more convenient product for applying to
soil, and
10.to provide a means for increasing the cation-exchange capacity
of the soil, the water-holding capacity of the soil, and to
decrease crusting and erosion or soil.
Additionally, many believe that composts help decrease the incidence
of plant diseases other than soil-borne."

"For improvement of physical properties of soil, actual decomposition
in the soil, rather than composting, is best because polysacharides
are produced from carbon compounds that would otherwise be lost in
composting. These natural water-soluble polymers do much to create
and stabilize the soil aggregates to give good physical properties to
soil. It may be better to use the carbon to synthesize
polysaccharides than to burn a lot of it to make heat to sterilize
the compost, unless sterilization is necessary like with sewage
sludge. For the same reason, partially decomposed organic matter
obtained in the first phase of composting may be better for soil
improvement than would mature composts which function mostly as a
soil amendment that dilutes the soil, decreases bulk density, and
gives more pore space in the soil because of the wedges."

Recently I have been having a discussion with Dave Schellinger over on the
USCC list (compost list) concerning this very matter. Mr Schellinger put
forward the view that raw organic matter actually decreases aggregate
formation in the soil, and cited some literature claiming to support his
point:

"Humus binds clay particles, but raw organic matter disperses and reduces
aggregates.  Bohn, et al., 2001, points out that greater aggregation
produces less stable organic matter contents in soils due to increased
aeration and microbiological degradation.  Even aggregates become less
stable with added organic matter.  This coincides with my statement that raw
organic matter additions reduces ped formation.  Approximately 50-80% of
fresh organic matter is lost from most temperate soils in the year of
application, just like during the composting process.  And, the smaller the
particle size, the faster the degradation occurs.  If more organic matter is
added to the soil, it degrades faster. The book points to an experiment in
England where a farm had been applying manures to a cultivated soil annually
since 1943 (30 tonnes/h) but had never been able to bring the soil organic
fraction back to the uncultivated levels. If soils are to benefit from
organic matter additions, there must be a continual supply of fresh organic
matter to the soils.  It makes more sense, therefore, to add a more stable
form of organic matter to soils rather that raw organic matter forms."



Mr. Schellinger also put forward the proposition that the addition of raw
organic materials to soils increased production of various greenhouse gases,
aside from CO2, compared to composting prior to soil application. In large
part I think he based this on the risk of flooding and excessive rain; his
location in Louisiana might have something to do with that concern.;-)



I put forward the counter proposition, that raw organic residues could well
improve the greenhouse gas status of a soil, if they resulted in improved
soil structure and subsequent improved plant growth. The importance of
seeing the full picture of these scenarios is great, I believe. I would
certainly appreciate input from Joel Gruver and others concerning our
current understanding of these matters. I did cite in our exchange the work
of Dr Fred Magdoff, who actually compared two scenarios of manure management
and found direct application of manure to yield better aggregation than
composting the manure first:



http://www.mofga.org/mofgj00j.html





It should also be noted that no tillage scenario I am aware of allows for a
sustainable return to uncultivated SOM levels without heroic applications of
organic matter, and this because tillage is itself a major destructive force
against SOM. However, by using rotations including several years of proper
pasturing soil can be kept at acceptable OM levels even in tillage regimes.
This approach has been used for centuries, known in some quarters as the
'British ley' system. Reduced tillage regimes such as strip or zone tillage
also offer benefits in conserving SOM, but of course no till systems
conserve SOM best.





The question of 'to compost, or not to compost' hits farmers squarely in the
face, especially those whose livestock are fed exclusively or nearly so from
the farm acreage itself. One factor we did not discuss is the issue of
transportation costs and the mechanical costs of composting, which obviously
also have greenhouse gas consequences. Labor time savings for the farmer are
also an issue. This is less of an issue where manure producers rely on
transported inputs and generate large quantities of manure which must
subsequently be retransported substantial distances; there the calculus
should favor composting on shipping cost grounds quite strongly. Of course,
the farm's overall crop diversity and the need for mature, relatively weed
free compost for specific crops are also factors which the decision maker
needs to consider.



I actually experience an opposite situation. I have access to large
quantities of shredded compressed dry fall leaves. In my view it clearly
seems favourable to transport these as is to my growing site prior to
application, rather than composting them first which would mean the addition
of a substantial amount of water, as well as requiring space which at
present is unavailable. This might be analogous to the handling of hay,
which when dry and bailed can be transported more cost effectively than if
it were composted and moist. There remains the issue of whether to compost
prior to soil application, of course. With hay the issue of weed seeds looms
large, for any future open soil growing; even with leaves there is some
potential for weed seed presence.



I consider that the use of these leaves both as mulch and as incorporated
organic matter will predominate in the mixed vegetable, small fruit and tree
orchard context which I participate in. Doubtless some will also be
thermally and worm composted as well, to produce materials for compost teas
and watery extracts as well as direct applications. I believe that my sandy
soil will benefit from direct decomposition of the leaves and subsequent
fungal growth in the soil itself more than if all the leaves were composted
before application. Because this soil is very well drained I anticipate no
serious anaerobicity problems leading to methane or NOx production as a
result. In more poorly drained soils that experience spring and/or fall
flooding, it could very well be wise to compost and apply shortly before
planting, or as crop choices permit, to apply after danger of flooding is
past but with sufficient time to decompose prior to planting.



I would appreciate any specific or general comments on these subjects. I can
make the full text of the exchanges between myself and Mr Schellinger
available to anyone interested.



Frank Teuton


********************************************************
To unsubscribe from SANET-MG:
1- Visit http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html to unsubscribe or;
2- Send a message to <listserv@sare.org> from the address subscribed to the list. Type "unsubscribe sanet-mg" in the body of the message.

Visit the SANET-MG archives at: http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html
For more information on grants and other resources available through the SARE program, please visit http://www.sare.org.

------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C53768.712CB910
Content-Type: text/html;
        charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" =
xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" =
xmlns:st1=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" =
xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">

<head>
<meta http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)">
<o:SmartTagType =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
 name=3D"PlaceName"/>
<o:SmartTagType =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
 name=3D"PlaceType"/>
<o:SmartTagType =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
 name=3D"State"/>
<o:SmartTagType =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
 name=3D"country-region"/>
<o:SmartTagType =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
 name=3D"place"/>
<!--[if !mso]>
<style>
st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
</style>
<![endif]-->
<style>
<!--
 /* Style Definitions */
 p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
        {margin:0cm;
        margin-bottom:.0001pt;
        font-size:12.0pt;
        font-family:"Times New Roman";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
        {color:blue;
        text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
        {color:purple;
        text-decoration:underline;}
p
        {mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
        margin-right:0cm;
        mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
        margin-left:0cm;
        font-size:12.0pt;
        font-family:"Times New Roman";}
span.EmailStyle17
        {mso-style-type:personal-compose;
        font-family:Arial;
        color:windowtext;}
@page Section1
        {size:612.0pt 792.0pt;
        margin:72.0pt 90.0pt 72.0pt 90.0pt;}
div.Section1
        {page:Section1;}
-->
</style>

</head>

<body lang=3DFR-CA link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple>

<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Back in 1998, Joel Gruver made the following =
post to
SANET:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><a
href=3D"http://www.sare.org/sanet-mg/archives/html-home/28-html/0043.html=
">http://www.sare.org/sanet-mg/archives/html-home/28-html/0043.html</a><o=
:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
lang=3DEN-CA
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Hello to all...<br>
Last year, Dr. Ray Weil and 5 grad students at the U of MD =
(including<br>
myself) pondered the difference between <st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">OM</st1:place>
stabilization<br>
in a composting system prior to soil application as compared to the<br>
direct application of undecomposed <st1:place w:st=3D"on">OM</st1:place> =
to soil.<br>
We assembled an extensive literature review that we intended to submit =
for<br>
publication but we never quite finished it... we investigated this =
issue<br>
from several angles... we considered long term C sequestration, =
effects<br>
on plant availability of micro and macro nutrients, effects on soil<br>
structure and effects on disease =
suppresion.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>My
focus was on soil structural effects... in a nutshell, the process<br>
of decomposition/microbial activity is very important to aggregate<br>
formation and stabilization... a majority of studies seemed to show =
that<br>
more labile organic substrates had greater formation and =
stabilization<br>
effects (both short and long term in some cases) than materials that =
were<br>
more recalcitrant like a mature compost...<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The
issue of differences in carbon sequestration was not discussed in =
many<br>
articles... I continue to ponder this issue and I tend to feel that<br>
decomposition in intimate contact with mineral surfaces is a very<br>
important feature in the formation of chemically and physically =
protected <br>
soil organic matter. Thus I think that unless you are adding lots of<br>
soil/clay to your compost you will be losing more C than if you let =
the<br>
decompostion take place on or in soil. However tilling/incorporating<br>
materials into soil, fractures aggregates, increases soil aeration... =
and<br>
thus promotes loss of indigenous SOM... its a tricky question...<br>
I think the reduced volume, and homogenized consistency of good =
compost<br>
makes it a superior material for handling and that is very desireable =
for<br>
farmers...<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Our
literature sits almost finished somewhere in Dr. Weils office... I<br>
suppose we could send an unfinished copy to someone with a deep =
interest<br>
in the subject...<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Joel
Gruver<br>
U of MD, Soil Quality research<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Other
folks joined in, including Steve Diver and Cary Oshins; this was the =
post that
seemed to get things started:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><a
href=3D"http://www.sare.org/sanet-mg/archives/html-home/28-html/0037.html=
">http://www.sare.org/sanet-mg/archives/html-home/28-html/0037.html</a><o=
:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><i><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
lang=3DEN-CA
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-style:italic'>&gt; Dan Hemenway wrote: =
</span></font></i><span
lang=3DEN-CA><br>
<i><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>&gt; Well, I enjoyed Steve's =
informed rant
on buckwheat and P, though I disagree</span></i><br>
<i><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>&gt; with several points. I'll =
mention a
few:</span></i><br>
<i><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>&gt;............stuff =
deleted..........</span></i><br>
<i><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>&gt; * I disagree with the strong =
emphasis
on composting separate from </span></i><br>
<i><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>&gt; the general soil activities. =
In my
view, composting is something I </span></i><br>
<i><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>&gt; need to do when I lack a more =
direct
means to apply organic matter to </span></i><br>
<i><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>&gt; my permaculture system or if =
there is
something wrong with the </span></i><br>
<i><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>&gt; material to be composted (e.g.
pathogens). There are vital pulses in </span></i><br>
<i><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>&gt; soil chemistry that are short =
circuited
by removing the composting </span></i><br>
<i><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>&gt; operation from the soil in =
general. If
you apply P-bearing materials </span></i><br>
<i><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>&gt; to the surface (bone meal, =
phosphate
rock, etc.) and apply mulch, </span></i><br>
<i><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>&gt; sheet mulch except when =
inappropriate,
the P will be released at </span></i><br>
<i><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>&gt; exactly the zone where plant =
roots
gather nutrients. (See Vol. I, </span></i><br>
<i><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>&gt; #3, of the International =
Permaculture
Solutions Journal). The same </span></i><br>
<i><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>&gt; is true of other rock powders =
(with the
same reservations), etc. </span></i><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>On
the topic on sheet mulch composting in place versus composting <br>
in piles or windrows, I'd say it depends on the situation. The <br>
method you described certainly works. Worms like that type of <br>
mulch and decay. In practice, it seems limited to home gardens <br>
and small-scale market gardens. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The
benefits and uses of compost as a stable humus product <br>
containing numerous exchange sites and microbials are well known. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>I
came across the following Sanet post by Ann Clark back in 1995, <br>
that contains some relevant ideas. Here it is again. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Steve
Diver<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><i><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt;font-style:italic'>&gt;From: &quot;E. Ann Clark, Associate
Professor&quot; </span></font></i><span lang=3DEN-CA><br>
<i><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>&gt;Organization: Crop Science, The =
Univ. of
Guelph</span></i><br>
<i><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>&gt;To: =
sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu</span></i><br>
<i><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>&gt;Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 09:57:06 =
EDT</span></i><br>
<i><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>&gt;Subject: Re: Humus -- rural =
-&gt; urban
-&gt; rural</span></i><br>
<i><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>&gt;Priority: =
normal</span></i><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Responding
to Dick R. on the issue of composting. Just curious about<br>
the comment that it is better if composting occurs in the soil. Just<br>
finished an M.Sc. student doing a study on composting and we didn't<br>
come across this idea in the lit. I'd be interested in learning what<br>
it is that is more beneficial about composting in-situ - in the soil =
-<br>
as against ahead of time. Evidence from the literature? =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><br>
Conventional organic wisdom hereabouts sees placement of raw manure<br>
directly into the soil as a net negative, because of a) rapid =
release<br>
of N which destabilizes cycling, b) VFA's which can be caustic, and =
c)<br>
potential for anaerobic decomposition when high moisture substrate<br>
(whether animal manure or direct cut red clover) is plowed into the<br>
soil. As an example, they recommend cutting and wilting red clover<br>
plowdown before plowing it in, to avoid this problem. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Good
points on &quot;waste&quot; management at landfills! Ann<br>
ACLARK@crop.uoguelph.ca<br>
Dr. E. Ann Clark<br>
Associate Professor<br>
Crop Science<br>
<st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:PlaceType =
w:st=3D"on">University</st1:PlaceType> of <st1:PlaceName
 =
w:st=3D"on">Guelph</st1:PlaceName></st1:place><o:p></o:p></span></font></=
p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Steve
Diver&#8217;s follow up post added the following =
points:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><a
href=3D"http://www.sare.org/sanet-mg/archives/html-home/28-html/0045.html=
">http://www.sare.org/sanet-mg/archives/html-home/28-html/0045.html</a><o=
:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
lang=3DEN-CA
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&#8220;There's a little-known but valuable =
publication
from Wallace <br>
Laboratores titled &quot;Soil Conditioner and Amendment Technologies, =
<br>
Volume 1,&quot; which is more or less a collection of articles =
originally <br>
published in a special issue -- Sustainability of the Soil and The <br>
Environment -- of Communications in Soil Science and Plant =
Analysis.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>One
of the articles titled &quot;Compost and Composting: Facts<br>
and Myths&quot; gets into composting vs soil =
application.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Selected
excerpts: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&quot;Most
people think that making compost is to create fertilizer.<br>
Other people use composting to creat a potting soil. Ten other <br>
reasons for so-called composting are...<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>1.
to decrease the volume of waste, especially for going into <br>
landfills, <br>
2. to decrease odors, <br>
3. to kill pathogens and weed seeds,<br>
4. to create more favorable carbon:nitrogen ratios so as to not<br>
induce nitrogen deficiencies in crops,<br>
5. to destroy natural toxins like tannins and allelopathic <br>
compounds, <br>
6. to decrease levels of synthetic pesticides that may be in organic =
<br>
waste by partial if not complete decomposition of them, <br>
7. to provide a means for making iron and other micronutrients <br>
available to plants, <br>
8. to impart to soil a mechanism for retarding soil-borne diseases <br>
nematodes, <br>
9. to make a more convenient product for applying to <br>
soil, and <br>
10.to provide a means for increasing the cation-exchange capacity <br>
of the soil, the water-holding capacity of the soil, and to <br>
decrease crusting and erosion or soil. <br>
Additionally, many believe that composts help decrease the incidence<br>
of plant diseases other than soil-borne.&quot; =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&quot;For
improvement of physical properties of soil, actual decomposition <br>
in the soil, rather than composting, is best because polysacharides <br>
are produced from carbon compounds that would otherwise be lost in <br>
composting. These natural water-soluble polymers do much to create <br>
and stabilize the soil aggregates to give good physical properties to =
<br>
soil. It may be better to use the carbon to synthesize <br>
polysaccharides than to burn a lot of it to make heat to sterilize <br>
the compost, unless sterilization is necessary like with sewage <br>
sludge. For the same reason, partially decomposed organic matter <br>
obtained in the first phase of composting may be better for soil <br>
improvement than would mature composts which function mostly as a <br>
soil amendment that dilutes the soil, decreases bulk density, and <br>
gives more pore space in the soil because of the wedges.&quot; =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Recently
I have been having a discussion with Dave Schellinger over on the USCC =
list
(compost list) concerning this very matter. Mr Schellinger put forward =
the view
that raw organic matter actually decreases aggregate formation in the =
soil, and
cited some literature claiming to support his =
point:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&#8220;</span></font><font
size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Courier New"'>Humus binds clay particles, but raw organic matter =
disperses and
reduces aggregates.&nbsp; Bohn, et al., 2001, points out that greater
aggregation produces less stable organic matter contents in soils due to
increased aeration and microbiological degradation.&nbsp; Even =
aggregates
become less stable with added organic matter.&nbsp; This coincides with =
my
statement that raw organic matter additions reduces ped formation.&nbsp; =
Approximately
50-80% of fresh organic matter is lost from most temperate soils in the =
year of
application, just like during the composting process.&nbsp; And, the =
smaller
the particle size, the faster the degradation occurs.&nbsp; If more =
organic
matter is added to the soil, it degrades faster. The book points to an
experiment in <st1:country-region w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">England</st1:place></st1:country-region>
where a farm had been applying manures to a cultivated soil annually =
since 1943
(30 tonnes/h) but had never been able to bring the soil organic fraction =
back
to the uncultivated levels. If soils are to benefit from organic matter
additions, there must be a continual supply of fresh organic matter to =
the
soils.&nbsp; It makes more sense, therefore, to add a more stable form =
of
organic matter to soils rather that raw organic matter =
forms.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D2 =
face=3D"Courier New"><span
lang=3DEN-CA style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Mr.
Schellinger also put forward the proposition that the addition of raw =
organic
materials to soils increased production of various greenhouse gases, =
aside from
CO2, compared to composting prior to soil application. In large part I =
think he
based this on the risk of flooding and excessive rain; his location in =
<st1:place
w:st=3D"on"><st1:State w:st=3D"on">Louisiana</st1:State></st1:place> =
might have
something to do with that concern&#8230;;-)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-CA style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>I =
put forward
the counter proposition, that raw organic residues could well improve =
the
greenhouse gas status of a soil, if they resulted in improved soil =
structure
and subsequent improved plant growth. The importance of seeing the full =
picture
of these scenarios is great, I believe. I would certainly appreciate =
input from
Joel Gruver and others concerning our current understanding of these =
matters. I
did cite in our exchange the work of Dr Fred Magdoff, who actually =
compared two
scenarios of manure management and found direct application of manure to =
yield
better aggregation than composting the manure =
first:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><a
href=3D"http://www.mofga.org/mofgj00j.html">http://www.mofga.org/mofgj00j=
.html</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>It should also
be noted that no tillage scenario I am aware of allows for a sustainable =
return
to uncultivated SOM levels without heroic applications of organic =
matter, and
this because tillage is itself a major destructive force against SOM. =
However,
by using rotations including several years of proper pasturing soil can =
be kept
at acceptable <st1:place w:st=3D"on">OM</st1:place> levels even in =
tillage
regimes. This approach has been used for centuries, known in some =
quarters as
the &#8216;British ley&#8217; system. Reduced tillage regimes such as =
strip or
zone tillage also offer benefits in conserving SOM, but of course no =
till
systems conserve SOM best.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The question
of &#8216;to compost, or not to compost&#8217; hits farmers squarely in =
the
face, especially those whose livestock are fed exclusively or nearly so =
from
the farm acreage itself. One factor we did not discuss is the issue of
transportation costs and the mechanical costs of composting, which =
obviously
also have greenhouse gas consequences. Labor time savings for the farmer =
are
also an issue. This is less of an issue where manure producers rely on
transported inputs and generate large quantities of manure which must
subsequently be retransported substantial distances; there the calculus =
should favor
composting on shipping cost grounds quite strongly. Of course, the =
farm&#8217;s
overall crop diversity and the need for mature, relatively weed free =
compost
for specific crops are also factors which the decision maker needs to =
consider.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I actually experience an opposite situation. I =
have
access to large quantities of shredded compressed dry fall leaves. In my =
view
it clearly seems favourable to transport these as is to my growing site =
prior
to application, rather than composting them first which would mean the =
addition
of a substantial amount of water, as well as requiring space which at =
present
is unavailable. This might be analogous to the handling of hay, which =
when dry
and bailed can be transported more cost effectively than if it were =
composted
and moist. There remains the issue of whether to compost prior to soil
application, of course. With hay the issue of weed seeds looms large, =
for any
future open soil growing; even with leaves there is some potential for =
weed
seed presence. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I consider that the use of these leaves both =
as mulch
and as incorporated organic matter will predominate in the mixed =
vegetable,
small fruit and tree orchard context which I participate in. Doubtless =
some
will also be thermally and worm composted as well, to produce materials =
for
compost teas and watery extracts as well as direct applications. I =
believe that
my sandy soil will benefit from direct decomposition of the leaves and
subsequent fungal growth in the soil itself more than if all the leaves =
were composted
before application. Because this soil is very well drained I anticipate =
no
serious anaerobicity problems leading to methane or NOx production as a =
result.
In more poorly drained soils that experience spring and/or fall =
flooding, it
could very well be wise to compost and apply shortly before planting, or =
as
crop choices permit, to apply after danger of flooding is past but with
sufficient time to decompose prior to =
planting.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I would appreciate any specific or general =
comments
on these subjects. I can make the full text of the exchanges between =
myself and
Mr Schellinger available to anyone =
interested.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Frank Teuton<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>
<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><![if !supportEmptyParas]>&NBSP;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>*****************************************************</p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>To unsubscribe from SANET-MG:<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>1- Visit <a
href=3D"http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html">http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html</a>
and unsubscribe by typing in your e-mail address or;<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>2- Send a message to <a href=3D"mailto:listserv@sare.org">mailto:listserv@sare.org</a>
from the address subscribed to the list. Type &QUOT;unsubscribe sanet-mg&QUOT;
in the body of the message.<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&NBSP;<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>Visit the SANET-MG archives at: <a
href=3D"http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html">http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html</a><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><![if !supportEmptyParas]>&NBSP;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C53768.712CB910--



From - Fri Mar 17 22:31:26 2006
X-UIDL: 368686870
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv1.intrex.net [209.42.192.236] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-8.04) id AFE4611700B0; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 21:26:44 -0500
Received: by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix)
	id D03DFAA3F; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 21:26:44 -0500 (EST)
Delivered-To: lfl@intrex.net
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B550CAA3C
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 21:26:44 -0500 (EST)
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (if-srv-listserv.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.252.37])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27590A9F3
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 21:26:44 -0500 (EST)
Received: from if-srv-listserv (localhost) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <4.00008069@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 21:26:24 -0500
Received: by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 14.5) with spool id
          282652 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 21:26:23
          -0500
Received: from hotmail.com (bay101-dav13.bay101.hotmail.com) by
          lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id
          <1.0000806B@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Fri, 17 Mar 2006 21:26:23 -0500
Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri,
          17 Mar 2006 18:26:22 -0800
Received: from 152.1.121.213 by BAY101-DAV13.phx.gbl with DAV; Sat, 18 Mar 2006
          02:26:17 +0000
X-Originating-IP: [152.1.121.213]
X-Originating-Email: [jgruv@hotmail.com]
X-Sender: jgruv@hotmail.com
References:  <CAECICMBGBFMPLPHEOKCOENJCGAA.jgunn-mcquillan@nwhu.on.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1506
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Mar 2006 02:26:22.0594 (UTC)
                       FILETIME=[5923BE20:01C64A33]
Message-ID:  <BAY101-DAV1369859EB01CCBAC2F94FAB3E50@phx.gbl>
Date:         Fri, 17 Mar 2006 21:26:28 -0500
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: Joel Gruver <jgruv@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: [SANET-MG] field studies evaluating mycorrhizal inoculum
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
List-Help: <http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?LIST=SANET-MG>,
           <mailto:LISTSERV@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU?body=INFO SANET-MG>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:SANET-MG-unsubscribe-request@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:SANET-MG-subscribe-request@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
List-Owner: <mailto:SANET-MG-request@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
List-Archive: <http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?LIST=SANET-MG>
X-Virus-Scanned: by viruswatch at intrex.net
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.252.37]
X-Note: Total weight is 2. SPAMHEADERS
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@mail.intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 368686870

Hello Jarrod,

Appended below are citations for a few studies that have evaluated
mycorrhizal fungi inoculum in the field. The database of mycorhiza
literature at the following link contains many more:
http://mycorrhiza.ag.utk.edu/

Douds, D.D. and C. Reider. 2003. Inoculation with mycorrhizal fungi
increases the yield of green peppers in a high P soil. Biological
Agriculture and Horticulture. 21: 91-102.

Douds, D.D., Nagahashi, G., Pfeffer, P.E., Kayser, W.M. and C. Reider. 2005.
On-farm production and utilization of mycorrhizal fungus inoculum. Canadian
Journal of Plant Science.85: 5-21.

J. Secilia and D.J. Bagyaraj. 1994. Evaluation and first-year field testing
of efficient vesicular arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi for inoculation of
wetland rice seedlings, World Journal of Microbiology and Biotechnology,
10(4): 381 - 384

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jarrod Gunn-Mcquillan" <jgunn-mcquillan@NWHU.ON.CA>
To: <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 11:29 AM
Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] Entrez PubMed Soil Quality & phosphate availability


> Does anyone know of any field studies using Mycorrhizae??  There seems to
be
> lots of greenhouse, microcosm etc. etc.
>
> Thanks
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
> [mailto:SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU]On Behalf Of Dale Wilson
> Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 10:00 AM
> To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
> Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] Entrez PubMed Soil Quality & phosphate
> availability
>
>
> Hi Edna,
>
> >> I'm afraid I'm over my head on this subject.  I'm interested,
> >> but I understood maybe about half of what I read and my
> >> unabridged dictionary didn't help me a whole lot....
> >> Can anyone tell me if that is the take home message in this
> >> research?
>
> Unlike nitrogen and potassium, phosphorus in the soil is tightly bound
> to the mineral fraction.  As water moves from the soil into the roots,
> potassium and nitrogen and most other minerals are swept along into the
> plant along with the water (yeah, I know, this is an
> oversimplification), but not so with phosphorus.  The roots have to go
> GET phosphorus by intimate contact with soil particles.  Most plants
> simply cannot produce enough root surface area to get the phosphorus
> they need, even when there is plenty around.  Almost all crops form a
> symbiotic relationship with a class of fungus called "arbuscular
> mycorrhizae fungi" (AMF).  The AMF live in the soil and have an
> extensive network of fine mycelia.  As a young plant is established,
> the root system becomes infected by the AMF which transports phosphorus
> into the roots.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbuscular_mycorrhiza
>
> "Mycorrhizae helper bacteria" work with the AMF to help dissolve P from
> the surfaces of soil particles.  The abstract cited by Lawrence studied
> an association between the AMF and the "growth-promoting rhizobacteria"
> Bacillus subtilis and Entrobacter.
>
> Here is the full text of the paper:
> http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/63/11/4408
>
> Lawrence wrote:
> > I interpret this to mean that the researchers discovered that the
> > presence of a specific AM fungus innoculated with two phosphate-
> > solubilizing ("helper") bacteria in soils with low phosphate
> > bioavailability resulted in higher levels of plant available
> > phosphorus and "significantly increased biomass and N and P
> > accumulation in plant tissues".
>
> I don't think this is a new finding.  The main point of the paper seems
> to be the use the isotopic dilution method as a tool.  There is a lot
> of literature about this subject.
>
> > So, is anyone marketing a soil innoculant for organic and
> > sustainable farmers who periodically apply rock phosphate to
> > farmland with normally low P bioavailability (I assume this can
> > be detected in a soil test)?
>
> I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that inoculation with these organisms
> in normal field situations will be beneficial.  I would try it out
> carefully in designed experiments and distrust promotional literature.
> AMF is normally present in most fields, and the bacteria mentioned are
> rugged and extremely common in soil.  The paper does show why rock
> phosphate (RP) might be more available to plants than one would think
> from the soil chemistry per se.  I still would make sure my RP is
> high-grade and finely ground.
>
> Dale
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> ********************************************************
> To unsubscribe from SANET-MG:
> 1- Visit http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html to unsubscribe or;
> 2- Send a message to <listserv@sare.org> from the address subscribed to
the
> list. Type "unsubscribe sanet-mg" in the body of the message.
>
> Visit the SANET-MG archives at:
> http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html.
> Questions? Visit http://www.sare.org/about/sanetFAQ.htm.
> For more information on grants and other resources available through the
> SARE program, please visit http://www.sare.org.
>
> ********************************************************
> To unsubscribe from SANET-MG:
> 1- Visit http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html to unsubscribe or;
> 2- Send a message to <listserv@sare.org> from the address subscribed to
the list. Type "unsubscribe sanet-mg" in the body of the message.
>
> Visit the SANET-MG archives at:
http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html.
> Questions? Visit http://www.sare.org/about/sanetFAQ.htm.
> For more information on grants and other resources available through the
SARE program, please visit http://www.sare.org.
>

********************************************************
To unsubscribe from SANET-MG:
1- Visit http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html to unsubscribe or;
2- Send a message to <listserv@sare.org> from the address subscribed to the list. Type "unsubscribe sanet-mg" in the body of the message.

Visit the SANET-MG archives at: http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html.
Questions? Visit http://www.sare.org/about/sanetFAQ.htm.
For more information on grants and other resources available through the SARE program, please visit http://www.sare.org.



From - Sun Mar 19 13:58:04 2006
X-UIDL: 368687173
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 12000000
Received: from mailserv1.intrex.net [209.42.192.236] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-8.04) id A616274B006E; Sun, 19 Mar 2006 11:25:58 -0500
Received: by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix)
	id EDDD8ACF7; Sun, 19 Mar 2006 11:25:58 -0500 (EST)
Delivered-To: lfl@intrex.net
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1C22AC8F
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Sun, 19 Mar 2006 11:25:58 -0500 (EST)
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (lists.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.252.37])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82E3ABCB3
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Sun, 19 Mar 2006 11:25:57 -0500 (EST)
Received: from if-srv-listserv (localhost) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <1.000082CF@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; 19 Mar 2006 11:25:35 -0500
Received: by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 14.5) with spool id
          288051 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU; Sun, 19 Mar 2006 11:25:34
          -0500
Received: from cs5.cropsci.ad.ncsu.edu by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows
          NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <3.000082EF@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; 19 Mar 2006
          11:25:34 -0500
Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C64B71.BF6B8C29"
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: <293F41C91E22C04D96E863676D21936B8EDB2E@cs5.cropsci.ad.ncsu.edu>
Thread-Topic: [SANET-MG] Entrez PubMed   Soil Quality & phosphate availability
Thread-Index: AcZJ4UHjlHt/NiVWTnqb2bw5iFlm4ABjylbC
References: A<CAECICMBGBFMPLPHEOKCOENJCGAA.jgunn-mcquillan@nwhu.on.ca>
Message-ID:  <293F41C91E22C04D96E863676D21936B8EDB2E@cs5.cropsci.ad.ncsu.edu>
Date:         Sun, 19 Mar 2006 11:25:34 -0500
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: Michelle Schroeder <michelle_schroeder@NCSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] Entrez PubMed   Soil Quality & phosphate availability
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
List-Help: <http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?LIST=SANET-MG>,
           <mailto:LISTSERV@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU?body=INFO SANET-MG>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:SANET-MG-unsubscribe-request@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:SANET-MG-subscribe-request@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
List-Owner: <mailto:SANET-MG-request@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
List-Archive: <http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?LIST=SANET-MG>
X-Virus-Scanned: by viruswatch at intrex.net
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.252.37]
X-Note: Total weight is 4. SPAMHEADERS, SUBJSPACES-10
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@mail.intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 368687173

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C64B71.BF6B8C29
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello Jared,=20
=20
There are quite a few studies done with arbuscular mycorrhizas in the =
field.  To add to Joel's list, I would also include:
=20
1. Kabir, Z. and Koide, R. T, 2002, Effect of autumn and winter =
mycorrhizal cover crops on soil properties, nutrient uptake and yield of =
sweet corn in Pennsylvania, USA, Plant and Soil, 238(2):205-215.
=20
2. Boswell, E. P., Koide, R. T., Shumway, D. L.,Addy, H. D., 1998, =
Winter wheat cover cropping, VA mycorrhizal fungi and maize growth and =
yield, Agriculture, Ecosystems, and Environment, 67(1):55-65.
=20
3.Cheng, X. M., Baumgartner, K., 2004, Arbuscular mycorrhizal =
fungi-mediated nitrogen transfer from vineyard cover crops to =
grapevines, Biology and Fertility of Soils, 40(6): 406:412.
=20
As Joel mentioned, you can search for all the mycorrhiza literature on  =
the  Mycorrhiza Information Exchange database at =
http://mycorrhiza.ag.utk.edu/ <http://mycorrhiza.ag.utk.edu/> .
=20
Sincerely,
michelle schroeder
=20
=20
=20
Michelle S. Schroeder, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor, Agroecology
=20
Crop Science Department
North Carolina State University
2406 Williams Hall
Campus Box 7620
Raleigh, NC 27695-7620 USA
=20
Phone: (919) 513-0085
FAX: (919) 515-7959
Email: michelle_schroeder@ncsu.edu
Personal webpage: =
http://www.cropsci.ncsu.edu/personnel/Schroeder_Michelle/Default.asp?fmti=
nfo=3D1,450,150 =
<http://www.cropsci.ncsu.edu/personnel/Schroeder_Michelle/Default.asp?fmt=
info=3D1,450,150>=20
Agroecology program: http://www.cropsci.ncsu.edu/agroecology/ =
<http://www.cropsci.ncsu.edu/agroecology/>=20
=20
=20
=20

________________________________

From: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group on behalf of =
Jarrod Gunn-Mcquillan
Sent: Fri 3/17/2006 11:29 AM
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] Entrez PubMed Soil Quality & phosphate =
availability



Does anyone know of any field studies using Mycorrhizae??  There seems =
to be
lots of greenhouse, microcosm etc. etc.

Thanks

-----Original Message-----
From: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
[mailto:SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU]On Behalf Of Dale Wilson
Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 10:00 AM
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] Entrez PubMed Soil Quality & phosphate
availability


Hi Edna,

>> I'm afraid I'm over my head on this subject.  I'm interested,
>> but I understood maybe about half of what I read and my
>> unabridged dictionary didn't help me a whole lot....
>> Can anyone tell me if that is the take home message in this
>> research?

Unlike nitrogen and potassium, phosphorus in the soil is tightly bound
to the mineral fraction.  As water moves from the soil into the roots,
potassium and nitrogen and most other minerals are swept along into the
plant along with the water (yeah, I know, this is an
oversimplification), but not so with phosphorus.  The roots have to go
GET phosphorus by intimate contact with soil particles.  Most plants
simply cannot produce enough root surface area to get the phosphorus
they need, even when there is plenty around.  Almost all crops form a
symbiotic relationship with a class of fungus called "arbuscular
mycorrhizae fungi" (AMF).  The AMF live in the soil and have an
extensive network of fine mycelia.  As a young plant is established,
the root system becomes infected by the AMF which transports phosphorus
into the roots.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbuscular_mycorrhiza

"Mycorrhizae helper bacteria" work with the AMF to help dissolve P from
the surfaces of soil particles.  The abstract cited by Lawrence studied
an association between the AMF and the "growth-promoting rhizobacteria"
Bacillus subtilis and Entrobacter.

Here is the full text of the paper:
http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/63/11/4408

Lawrence wrote:
> I interpret this to mean that the researchers discovered that the
> presence of a specific AM fungus innoculated with two phosphate-
> solubilizing ("helper") bacteria in soils with low phosphate
> bioavailability resulted in higher levels of plant available
> phosphorus and "significantly increased biomass and N and P
> accumulation in plant tissues".

I don't think this is a new finding.  The main point of the paper seems
to be the use the isotopic dilution method as a tool.  There is a lot
of literature about this subject.

> So, is anyone marketing a soil innoculant for organic and
> sustainable farmers who periodically apply rock phosphate to
> farmland with normally low P bioavailability (I assume this can
> be detected in a soil test)?

I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that inoculation with these organisms
in normal field situations will be beneficial.  I would try it out
carefully in designed experiments and distrust promotional literature.
AMF is normally present in most fields, and the bacteria mentioned are
rugged and extremely common in soil.  The paper does show why rock
phosphate (RP) might be more available to plants than one would think
from the soil chemistry per se.  I still would make sure my RP is
high-grade and finely ground.

Dale

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

********************************************************
To unsubscribe from SANET-MG:
1- Visit http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html to unsubscribe or;
2- Send a message to <listserv@sare.org> from the address subscribed to =
the
list. Type "unsubscribe sanet-mg" in the body of the message.

Visit the SANET-MG archives at:
http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html.
Questions? Visit http://www.sare.org/about/sanetFAQ.htm.
For more information on grants and other resources available through the
SARE program, please visit http://www.sare.org.

********************************************************
To unsubscribe from SANET-MG:
1- Visit http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html to unsubscribe or;
2- Send a message to <listserv@sare.org> from the address subscribed to =
the list. Type "unsubscribe sanet-mg" in the body of the message.

Visit the SANET-MG archives at: =
http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html.
Questions? Visit http://www.sare.org/about/sanetFAQ.htm.
For more information on grants and other resources available through the =
SARE program, please visit http://www.sare.org.



********************************************************
To unsubscribe from SANET-MG:
1- Visit http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html to unsubscribe or;
2- Send a message to <listserv@sare.org> from the address subscribed to the list. Type "unsubscribe sanet-mg" in the body of the message.

Visit the SANET-MG archives at: http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html.
Questions? Visit http://www.sare.org/about/sanetFAQ.htm.
For more information on grants and other resources available through the SARE program, please visit http://www.sare.org.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C64B71.BF6B8C29
Content-Type: application/ms-tnef;
	name="winmail.dat"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C64B71.BF6B8C29--



From - Mon Sep 11 15:02:13 2006
X-UIDL: 368718395
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv1.intrex.net [209.42.192.236] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-8.04) id AF6352BC00DA; Mon, 11 Sep 2006 14:48:03 -0400
Received: by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix)
	id 1959EAE78; Mon, 11 Sep 2006 14:48:03 -0400 (EDT)
Delivered-To: lfl@intrex.net
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF7B2AE70
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Mon, 11 Sep 2006 14:48:02 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (if-srv-listserv.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.252.37])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52B9BAE68
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Mon, 11 Sep 2006 14:48:02 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from if-srv-listserv (localhost) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <5.00033909@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Mon, 11 Sep 2006 14:47:38 -0400
Received: by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 14.5) with spool id
          864930 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU; Mon, 11 Sep 2006 14:47:38
          -0400
Received: from elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP
          for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <3.00033895@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>;
          Mon, 11 Sep 2006 14:37:38 -0400
Received: from [71.35.53.12] (helo=[192.168.0.102]) by
          elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id
          1GMqf3-0002Nu-UH for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU; Mon, 11 Sep 2006
          14:37:38 -0400
User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (Windows/20060719)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <20060911101005.79673.qmail@web51905.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-ELNK-Trace: 8c6e4cabddc1f61885338a7d01cb3b6a7e972de0d01da940b71c4572e9d5023cde0561fb6ed9ef69350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c
X-Originating-IP: 71.35.53.12
Message-ID:  <4505ACF3.2050805@earthlink.net>
Date:         Mon, 11 Sep 2006 11:37:39 -0700
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: John Cowan <johncowan@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] Putting the carbon back: Black is the new green
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <20060911101005.79673.qmail@web51905.mail.yahoo.com>
Precedence: list
List-Help: <http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?LIST=SANET-MG>,
           <mailto:LISTSERV@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU?body=INFO SANET-MG>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:SANET-MG-unsubscribe-request@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:SANET-MG-subscribe-request@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
List-Owner: <mailto:SANET-MG-request@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
List-Archive: <http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?LIST=SANET-MG>
X-Virus-Scanned: by viruswatch at intrex.net
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.252.37]
X-Note: Total weight is 4. SPAMHEADERS, SUBJSPACES-10
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@mail.intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 368718395
X-NAS-BWL: No match found for 'johncowan@EARTHLINK.NET' (132 addresses, 0 domains)
X-NAS-Language: English
X-NAS-Bayes: #0: 1.58883E-127; #1: 1
X-NAS-Classification: 0
X-NAS-MessageID: 24296
X-NAS-Validation: {90DCBAEC-C7A3-4555-A807-A22CA8B4B85E}

I have been experimenting with "charcoal" this year after reading ALL 
the books about Terra Preta, reading ALL the information on at Eprida 
http://www.eprida.com/home/index.php4 plus other information on the web 
such as at Cornell.

According the Eprida, the proper charcoal means heating suitable organic 
materials to about 400 degrees C. (750 degrees F.) without oxygen. 
Volatiles, hydrogen and water are outgassed. These gases can be used in 
a variety of ways. The charcoal is ground to 30-45 mesh. They also have 
developed a process to saturate it with ammonium bicarbonate using 
recycled gases.

My focus has been on enhancing microbiological activity and nutrient 
holding capacity in the soil. If you add some charcoal to quality 
finished compost or worm castings you will get obvious enhances 
microbiological activity as seen by doing a simple water extraction 
after one day of culturing and looking at it under a microscope.

Enhanced nutrient capacity occurs because the carbon matrix of the 
charcoal starts taking on "functional groups" and hence forms a type of 
humus that increases the CEC.

Here is how I have produced the charcoal "fertilizer" in small 
quantities:  Grind commercial "lump" barbecue charcoal (Cowboy, Royal 
Oak, etc.) to a fine powder. Do not use brickettes. I run it through an 
old meat grinder then put small amounts in an electric coffee mill. Mix 
charcoal powder with equal parts by volume fine sifted compost or worm 
castings. According to the charcoal weight, add 5% high quality fish 
meal, krill meal or other quality protein meal. Avoid solvent-extracted 
meals. Add sufficient water (non-chlorinated) usually about 1/2 the 
charcoal volume. Mix throughly. It should be wet, not mucky. Usually I 
work the mixture through a 1/4 inch hardware mesh to fluffy it up and 
cut up any lumps. Let sit in a plastic bucket for a week maybe with a 
loose cover in dry climates. Actineomyctes (sp?) smell will replace the 
protein smell in a few days and some white specks should develop.

Small quantities of this product can show a noticeable improvement in 
plant appearance and growth/production. Apply to the soil surface and 
water in. I will not go into my exact experiences but I have been 
organic gardening for decades and have experience with a wide range of 
organic fertilizers and amendments. I have never seen anything quite 
like it.

If you have questions about what I have mentioned I would invite you to 
reply to me personally or to the list.

Thanks,

John Cowan

********************************************************
To unsubscribe from SANET-MG:
1- Visit http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html to unsubscribe or;
2- Send a message to <listserv@sare.org> from the address subscribed to the list. Type "unsubscribe sanet-mg" in the body of the message.

Visit the SANET-MG archives at: http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html.
Questions? Visit http://www.sare.org/about/sanetFAQ.htm.
For more information on grants and other resources available through the SARE program, please visit http://www.sare.org.



From - Mon Sep 11 15:02:13 2006
X-UIDL: 368718395
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv1.intrex.net [209.42.192.236] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-8.04) id AF6352BC00DA; Mon, 11 Sep 2006 14:48:03 -0400
Received: by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix)
	id 1959EAE78; Mon, 11 Sep 2006 14:48:03 -0400 (EDT)
Delivered-To: lfl@intrex.net
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF7B2AE70
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Mon, 11 Sep 2006 14:48:02 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (if-srv-listserv.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.252.37])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52B9BAE68
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Mon, 11 Sep 2006 14:48:02 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from if-srv-listserv (localhost) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <5.00033909@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Mon, 11 Sep 2006 14:47:38 -0400
Received: by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 14.5) with spool id
          864930 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU; Mon, 11 Sep 2006 14:47:38
          -0400
Received: from elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP
          for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <3.00033895@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>;
          Mon, 11 Sep 2006 14:37:38 -0400
Received: from [71.35.53.12] (helo=[192.168.0.102]) by
          elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id
          1GMqf3-0002Nu-UH for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU; Mon, 11 Sep 2006
          14:37:38 -0400
User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (Windows/20060719)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <20060911101005.79673.qmail@web51905.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-ELNK-Trace: 8c6e4cabddc1f61885338a7d01cb3b6a7e972de0d01da940b71c4572e9d5023cde0561fb6ed9ef69350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c
X-Originating-IP: 71.35.53.12
Message-ID:  <4505ACF3.2050805@earthlink.net>
Date:         Mon, 11 Sep 2006 11:37:39 -0700
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: John Cowan <johncowan@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] Putting the carbon back: Black is the new green
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <20060911101005.79673.qmail@web51905.mail.yahoo.com>
Precedence: list
List-Help: <http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?LIST=SANET-MG>,
           <mailto:LISTSERV@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU?body=INFO SANET-MG>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:SANET-MG-unsubscribe-request@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:SANET-MG-subscribe-request@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
List-Owner: <mailto:SANET-MG-request@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
List-Archive: <http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?LIST=SANET-MG>
X-Virus-Scanned: by viruswatch at intrex.net
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.252.37]
X-Note: Total weight is 4. SPAMHEADERS, SUBJSPACES-10
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@mail.intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 368718395
X-NAS-BWL: No match found for 'johncowan@EARTHLINK.NET' (132 addresses, 0 domains)
X-NAS-Language: English
X-NAS-Bayes: #0: 1.58883E-127; #1: 1
X-NAS-Classification: 0
X-NAS-MessageID: 24296
X-NAS-Validation: {90DCBAEC-C7A3-4555-A807-A22CA8B4B85E}

I have been experimenting with "charcoal" this year after reading ALL 
the books about Terra Preta, reading ALL the information on at Eprida 
http://www.eprida.com/home/index.php4 plus other information on the web 
such as at Cornell.

According the Eprida, the proper charcoal means heating suitable organic 
materials to about 400 degrees C. (750 degrees F.) without oxygen. 
Volatiles, hydrogen and water are outgassed. These gases can be used in 
a variety of ways. The charcoal is ground to 30-45 mesh. They also have 
developed a process to saturate it with ammonium bicarbonate using 
recycled gases.

My focus has been on enhancing microbiological activity and nutrient 
holding capacity in the soil. If you add some charcoal to quality 
finished compost or worm castings you will get obvious enhances 
microbiological activity as seen by doing a simple water extraction 
after one day of culturing and looking at it under a microscope.

Enhanced nutrient capacity occurs because the carbon matrix of the 
charcoal starts taking on "functional groups" and hence forms a type of 
humus that increases the CEC.

Here is how I have produced the charcoal "fertilizer" in small 
quantities:  Grind commercial "lump" barbecue charcoal (Cowboy, Royal 
Oak, etc.) to a fine powder. Do not use brickettes. I run it through an 
old meat grinder then put small amounts in an electric coffee mill. Mix 
charcoal powder with equal parts by volume fine sifted compost or worm 
castings. According to the charcoal weight, add 5% high quality fish 
meal, krill meal or other quality protein meal. Avoid solvent-extracted 
meals. Add sufficient water (non-chlorinated) usually about 1/2 the 
charcoal volume. Mix throughly. It should be wet, not mucky. Usually I 
work the mixture through a 1/4 inch hardware mesh to fluffy it up and 
cut up any lumps. Let sit in a plastic bucket for a week maybe with a 
loose cover in dry climates. Actineomyctes (sp?) smell will replace the 
protein smell in a few days and some white specks should develop.

Small quantities of this product can show a noticeable improvement in 
plant appearance and growth/production. Apply to the soil surface and 
water in. I will not go into my exact experiences but I have been 
organic gardening for decades and have experience with a wide range of 
organic fertilizers and amendments. I have never seen anything quite 
like it.

If you have questions about what I have mentioned I would invite you to 
reply to me personally or to the list.

Thanks,

John Cowan

********************************************************
To unsubscribe from SANET-MG:
1- Visit http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html to unsubscribe or;
2- Send a message to <listserv@sare.org> from the address subscribed to the list. Type "unsubscribe sanet-mg" in the body of the message.

Visit the SANET-MG archives at: http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html.
Questions? Visit http://www.sare.org/about/sanetFAQ.htm.
For more information on grants and other resources available through the SARE program, please visit http://www.sare.org.



From - Mon Sep 11 15:02:13 2006
X-UIDL: 368718395
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv1.intrex.net [209.42.192.236] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-8.04) id AF6352BC00DA; Mon, 11 Sep 2006 14:48:03 -0400
Received: by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix)
	id 1959EAE78; Mon, 11 Sep 2006 14:48:03 -0400 (EDT)
Delivered-To: lfl@intrex.net
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF7B2AE70
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Mon, 11 Sep 2006 14:48:02 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (if-srv-listserv.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.252.37])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52B9BAE68
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Mon, 11 Sep 2006 14:48:02 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from if-srv-listserv (localhost) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <5.00033909@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Mon, 11 Sep 2006 14:47:38 -0400
Received: by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 14.5) with spool id
          864930 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU; Mon, 11 Sep 2006 14:47:38
          -0400
Received: from elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP
          for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <3.00033895@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>;
          Mon, 11 Sep 2006 14:37:38 -0400
Received: from [71.35.53.12] (helo=[192.168.0.102]) by
          elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id
          1GMqf3-0002Nu-UH for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU; Mon, 11 Sep 2006
          14:37:38 -0400
User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (Windows/20060719)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <20060911101005.79673.qmail@web51905.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-ELNK-Trace: 8c6e4cabddc1f61885338a7d01cb3b6a7e972de0d01da940b71c4572e9d5023cde0561fb6ed9ef69350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c
X-Originating-IP: 71.35.53.12
Message-ID:  <4505ACF3.2050805@earthlink.net>
Date:         Mon, 11 Sep 2006 11:37:39 -0700
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: John Cowan <johncowan@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] Putting the carbon back: Black is the new green
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <20060911101005.79673.qmail@web51905.mail.yahoo.com>
Precedence: list
List-Help: <http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?LIST=SANET-MG>,
           <mailto:LISTSERV@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU?body=INFO SANET-MG>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:SANET-MG-unsubscribe-request@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:SANET-MG-subscribe-request@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
List-Owner: <mailto:SANET-MG-request@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
List-Archive: <http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?LIST=SANET-MG>
X-Virus-Scanned: by viruswatch at intrex.net
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.252.37]
X-Note: Total weight is 4. SPAMHEADERS, SUBJSPACES-10
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@mail.intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 368718395
X-NAS-BWL: No match found for 'johncowan@EARTHLINK.NET' (132 addresses, 0 domains)
X-NAS-Language: English
X-NAS-Bayes: #0: 1.58883E-127; #1: 1
X-NAS-Classification: 0
X-NAS-MessageID: 24296
X-NAS-Validation: {90DCBAEC-C7A3-4555-A807-A22CA8B4B85E}

I have been experimenting with "charcoal" this year after reading ALL 
the books about Terra Preta, reading ALL the information on at Eprida 
http://www.eprida.com/home/index.php4 plus other information on the web 
such as at Cornell.

According the Eprida, the proper charcoal means heating suitable organic 
materials to about 400 degrees C. (750 degrees F.) without oxygen. 
Volatiles, hydrogen and water are outgassed. These gases can be used in 
a variety of ways. The charcoal is ground to 30-45 mesh. They also have 
developed a process to saturate it with ammonium bicarbonate using 
recycled gases.

My focus has been on enhancing microbiological activity and nutrient 
holding capacity in the soil. If you add some charcoal to quality 
finished compost or worm castings you will get obvious enhances 
microbiological activity as seen by doing a simple water extraction 
after one day of culturing and looking at it under a microscope.

Enhanced nutrient capacity occurs because the carbon matrix of the 
charcoal starts taking on "functional groups" and hence forms a type of 
humus that increases the CEC.

Here is how I have produced the charcoal "fertilizer" in small 
quantities:  Grind commercial "lump" barbecue charcoal (Cowboy, Royal 
Oak, etc.) to a fine powder. Do not use brickettes. I run it through an 
old meat grinder then put small amounts in an electric coffee mill. Mix 
charcoal powder with equal parts by volume fine sifted compost or worm 
castings. According to the charcoal weight, add 5% high quality fish 
meal, krill meal or other quality protein meal. Avoid solvent-extracted 
meals. Add sufficient water (non-chlorinated) usually about 1/2 the 
charcoal volume. Mix throughly. It should be wet, not mucky. Usually I 
work the mixture through a 1/4 inch hardware mesh to fluffy it up and 
cut up any lumps. Let sit in a plastic bucket for a week maybe with a 
loose cover in dry climates. Actineomyctes (sp?) smell will replace the 
protein smell in a few days and some white specks should develop.

Small quantities of this product can show a noticeable improvement in 
plant appearance and growth/production. Apply to the soil surface and 
water in. I will not go into my exact experiences but I have been 
organic gardening for decades and have experience with a wide range of 
organic fertilizers and amendments. I have never seen anything quite 
like it.

If you have questions about what I have mentioned I would invite you to 
reply to me personally or to the list.

Thanks,

John Cowan

********************************************************
To unsubscribe from SANET-MG:
1- Visit http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html to unsubscribe or;
2- Send a message to <listserv@sare.org> from the address subscribed to the list. Type "unsubscribe sanet-mg" in the body of the message.

Visit the SANET-MG archives at: http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html.
Questions? Visit http://www.sare.org/about/sanetFAQ.htm.
For more information on grants and other resources available through the SARE program, please visit http://www.sare.org.



From - Wed Sep 13 19:05:21 2006
X-UIDL: 368719014
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: from mailserv1.intrex.net [209.42.192.236] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-8.04) id AD56E3001C; Wed, 13 Sep 2006 18:59:34 -0400
Received: by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix)
	id 7A609AC5D; Wed, 13 Sep 2006 18:59:34 -0400 (EDT)
Delivered-To: lfl@intrex.net
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FC89AAFF
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Wed, 13 Sep 2006 18:59:34 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (if-srv-listserv.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.252.37])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4522AC39
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Wed, 13 Sep 2006 18:59:33 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from if-srv-listserv (localhost) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <3.000343B1@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Wed, 13 Sep 2006 18:59:20 -0400
Received: by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 14.5) with spool id
          887676 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU; Wed, 13 Sep 2006 18:59:20
          -0400
Received: from web51909.mail.yahoo.com by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows
          NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0008B499@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Wed, 13 Sep
          2006 18:59:20 -0400
Received: (qmail 95922 invoked by uid 60001); 13 Sep 2006 22:59:19 -0000
Received: from [65.248.25.2] by web51909.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 13 Sep
          2006 15:59:19 PDT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID:  <20060913225919.95920.qmail@web51909.mail.yahoo.com>
Date:         Wed, 13 Sep 2006 15:59:19 -0700
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: Dale Wilson <nosliwelad@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] Putting the carbon back: Black is the new green
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <52c.8df22f8.3239cda4@aol.com>
Precedence: list
List-Help: <http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?LIST=SANET-MG>,
           <mailto:LISTSERV@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU?body=INFO SANET-MG>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:SANET-MG-unsubscribe-request@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:SANET-MG-subscribe-request@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
List-Owner: <mailto:SANET-MG-request@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
List-Archive: <http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?LIST=SANET-MG>
X-Virus-Scanned: by viruswatch at intrex.net
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.252.37]
X-Note: Total weight is 4. SPAMHEADERS, SUBJSPACES-10
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@mail.intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 368719014
X-NAS-BWL: No match found for 'nosliwelad@YAHOO.COM' (132 addresses, 0 domains)
X-NAS-Language: English
X-NAS-Bayes: #0: 7.27646E-137; #1: 1
X-NAS-Classification: 0
X-NAS-MessageID: 24915
X-NAS-Validation: {90DCBAEC-C7A3-4555-A807-A22CA8B4B85E}

Elaine,

> Charcoal addition, WITHOUT ANY organisms, nutrient, or water
> addition with it, was what was being discussed.  If you wish to
> add in other factors, along with the charcoal,  then the 
> discussion will be very different.

Part of the discussion is the indeterminacy of the term "charcoal." 
This subject is already "very different" because things other than pure
thermogenic carbon are present in "char."

> If you want to add all the other things besides charcoal that
> are in Terra Preta, i.e., if you want to add bacteria, fungi,
> protozoa, nematodes, microarthropods, humus, fulvics, proteins,
> sugars. etc then we aren't talking  about just charcoal anymore.

That is part of the point of this discussion.  The "char" being
discussed is a complex material.
  
> How long has it been since "black earth" was anaerobic?  It
> does not has a sickening, stinky smell to it as it has been
> described to me.  It is not low in oxygen.  It is not hot.
> Terra Preta is not charcoal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_preta
"Because of their elevated charcoal content, it is now widely accepted
that these soils are a product of indigenous soil management involving
a labor intensive technique termed slash-and-char. The technique is
differentiated from slash and burn by a lower temperature burn and in
being a tool for soil improvement. Amending soil with low temperature
charcoal produced from a mix of wood and leafy biomass (termed
bio-char) has been observed to increase the activity of arbuscular
mycorrhizal fungi."

> Recalcitrance of any organic matter is relative, and I'll agree
> with Lutzow et all absolutely on that statement.  If you have no
> fungi in the "mix", the wider C:N materials are going to have a
> hard time breaking down.  If the fungi that can use that wide
> C:N material are present, those "recalcitrant" materials can
> disappear pretty quickly.

The other part of this discussion, is the possibility that by thermally
processing organic matter in the right way, it might be possible to
very greatly increase the recalcitrance of the organic matter, while
retaining soil-building value (beyond the value of ordinary charcoal). 
This seems to be what happened to these Terra Preta soils.  Thermal
processing might be a valuable way to make microbiologically stable OM
amendments.
  
> If organic matter has been sterilized, or does not contain the
> organisms capable of breaking down the bonds in the material,
> then that material will appear "recalcitrant".

We are not talking about sterile systems.  Sure, the biomass being
thermally processed would be rendered sterile, but after you put it in
the soil it will be colonized by the native flora and fauna.
  
> Restrict the information being considered to just what I was
> talking about, and do NOT add in all sorts of other things.
> Please don't muddy the conversation that was being held.

Elaine, it it too late!  This was a murky, confusing, impure thread
from it's inception.  I would urge you to keep an open mind.  I don't
think this is mainly about "charcoal" in the usual sense of the word.

Dale

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

********************************************************
To unsubscribe from SANET-MG:
1- Visit http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html to unsubscribe or;
2- Send a message to <listserv@sare.org> from the address subscribed to the list. Type "unsubscribe sanet-mg" in the body of the message.

Visit the SANET-MG archives at: http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html.
Questions? Visit http://www.sare.org/about/sanetFAQ.htm.
For more information on grants and other resources available through the SARE program, please visit http://www.sare.org.



From - Wed Sep 13 20:55:00 2006
X-UIDL: 368719038
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv1.intrex.net [209.42.192.236] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-8.04) id A66B8EE0016; Wed, 13 Sep 2006 20:46:35 -0400
Received: by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix)
	id 54B5CAEA4; Wed, 13 Sep 2006 20:46:35 -0400 (EDT)
Delivered-To: lfl@intrex.net
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3993FAD9C
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Wed, 13 Sep 2006 20:46:35 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (if-srv-listserv.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.252.37])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7478DAD4F
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Wed, 13 Sep 2006 20:46:34 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from if-srv-listserv (localhost) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <5.0003445E@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Wed, 13 Sep 2006 20:46:12 -0400
Received: by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 14.5) with spool id
          888246 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU; Wed, 13 Sep 2006 20:46:12
          -0400
Received: from imo-m24.mx.aol.com by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT
          v1.1b) with SMTP id <2.00034575@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Wed, 13 Sep 2006
          20:46:12 -0400
Received: from Soilfoodweb@aol.com by imo-m24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r7.6.)
          id d.556.6d93238 (29672) for <SANET-MG@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Wed, 13
          Sep 2006 20:46:07 -0400 (EDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="-----------------------------1158194766"
X-Mailer: 9.0 Security Edition for Windows sub 5330
Message-ID:  <556.6d93238.323a004e@aol.com>
Date:         Wed, 13 Sep 2006 20:46:06 EDT
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] Putting the carbon back: Black is the new green
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
Precedence: list
List-Help: <http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?LIST=SANET-MG>,
           <mailto:LISTSERV@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU?body=INFO SANET-MG>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:SANET-MG-unsubscribe-request@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:SANET-MG-subscribe-request@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
List-Owner: <mailto:SANET-MG-request@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
List-Archive: <http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?LIST=SANET-MG>
X-Virus-Scanned: by viruswatch at intrex.net
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.252.37]
X-Note: Total weight is 4. SPAMHEADERS, SUBJSPACES-10
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@mail.intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 368719038
X-NAS-BWL: No match found for 'Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM' (132 addresses, 0 domains)
X-NAS-Language: English
X-NAS-Bayes: #0: 0; #1: 1
X-NAS-Classification: 0
X-NAS-MessageID: 24939
X-NAS-Validation: {90DCBAEC-C7A3-4555-A807-A22CA8B4B85E}

-------------------------------1158194766
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 
 
Perhaps there was a thread was about Terre Pieta, but my specific comment  
was about charcoal.  I believe I clearly indicated my response as being  about 
charcoal.  
 
Charcoal by definition is wood held at high temperature (175 to 180  C) with 
low oxygen (doesn't burn but essentially crystallizes).  This  can be done 
mechanically, or can be done by biology.  
 
If someone wants to develop a new term, for example "char", then a clear  
definition is required.  Conditions for production of that material need to  be 
defined.  
 
When people compost using woody materials, such as oak, pine, cedar,  
eucalyptus, or other wide C:N bark, heartwood or sapwood, with other materials  
(green plant material and high N containing material) on which the bacteria and  
fungi grow rapidly, use up oxygen, and generate high heat (above 170 C), then  
conditions are correct to produce charcoal.  
 
Compost is NOT sterile at 175 C.  Just because none of the  organisms growing 
at those temperatures will grow on any lab culture plate, does  not mean 
those organisms do not exist.  
 
But many conventional microbiology-based people make that  mistake.  There 
are a huge number of species and high numbers of  individuals at high 
temperatures.  Take a look at deep sea vents.   Check out the number of species in a ml 
of seawater, regardless of whether that  water is from deep ocean vents or 
from near-shore, or mid-depth.  
 
The reason that compost piles heat is through the heat released at the  
organisms grow.  No organisms, no heat in a compost pile.  If you  have heat, you 
have growing organisms.  
 
In Terre Pieta, there are a huge number of organisms.  Which is more  likely 
to be more important to the production of the fertility of this  soil?  
Charcoal, the charred organic matter, or the organisms? 
 
----------
 
If you have a material that is compacted, it often lacks  oxygen.  
Mycorrhizal fungi are strict aerobes, and cannot grow  when oxygen is lacking.  If 
material that structurally helps  oxygen move more easily into the material is 
added, the mycorrhizal fungi will  be seen to grow more readily as the conditions 
restricting their growth are  alleviated.  
 
Did the structural material supply carbon?  mineral  nutrients?  or allow 
oxygen to move into the material?  
 
What is the real explanation for the benefit of charcoal for mycorrhizal  
growth?
 
Elaine Ingham
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 9/13/2006 3:59:48 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
nosliwelad@YAHOO.COM writes:

Elaine,

> Charcoal addition, WITHOUT ANY organisms, nutrient,  or water
> addition with it, was what was being discussed.  If you  wish to
> add in other factors, along with the charcoal,  then the  
> discussion will be very different.

Part of the discussion is  the indeterminacy of the term "charcoal." 
This subject is already "very  different" because things other than pure
thermogenic carbon are present in  "char."

> If you want to add all the other things besides charcoal  that
> are in Terra Preta, i.e., if you want to add bacteria,  fungi,
> protozoa, nematodes, microarthropods, humus, fulvics,  proteins,
> sugars. etc then we aren't talking  about just charcoal  anymore.

That is part of the point of this discussion.  The "char"  being
discussed is a complex material.

> How long has it  been since "black earth" was anaerobic?  It
> does not has a  sickening, stinky smell to it as it has been
> described to me.  It  is not low in oxygen.  It is not hot.
> Terra Preta is not  charcoal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_preta
"Because of their  elevated charcoal content, it is now widely accepted
that these soils are a  product of indigenous soil management involving
a labor intensive technique  termed slash-and-char. The technique is
differentiated from slash and burn  by a lower temperature burn and in
being a tool for soil improvement.  Amending soil with low temperature
charcoal produced from a mix of wood and  leafy biomass (termed
bio-char) has been observed to increase the activity  of arbuscular
mycorrhizal fungi."

> Recalcitrance of any organic  matter is relative, and I'll agree
> with Lutzow et all absolutely on  that statement.  If you have no
> fungi in the "mix", the wider C:N  materials are going to have a
> hard time breaking down.  If the  fungi that can use that wide
> C:N material are present, those  "recalcitrant" materials can
> disappear pretty quickly.

The  other part of this discussion, is the possibility that by  thermally
processing organic matter in the right way, it might be possible  to
very greatly increase the recalcitrance of the organic matter,  while
retaining soil-building value (beyond the value of ordinary  charcoal). 
This seems to be what happened to these Terra Preta  soils.  Thermal
processing might be a valuable way to make  microbiologically stable OM
amendments.

> If organic  matter has been sterilized, or does not contain the
> organisms capable  of breaking down the bonds in the material,
> then that material will  appear "recalcitrant".

We are not talking about sterile systems.   Sure, the biomass being
thermally processed would be rendered sterile, but  after you put it in
the soil it will be colonized by the native flora and  fauna.

> Restrict the information being considered to just  what I was
> talking about, and do NOT add in all sorts of other  things.
> Please don't muddy the conversation that was being  held.

Elaine, it it too late!  This was a murky, confusing, impure  thread
from it's inception.  I would urge you to keep an open  mind.  I don't
think this is mainly about "charcoal" in the usual  sense of the word.

Dale




Elaine R.  Ingham
Soil Foodweb Inc., Corvallis, Oregon
Soil Foodweb Inc., Port  Jefferson, New York
Soil Foodweb Institute, Lismore Australia
Soil Foodweb  Institute Cambridge, New Zealand
Laboratorios de Soil Foodweb, Culiacan,  Mexico
Soil Foodweb South Africa, Polokwane, SA
Soil Foodweb Canada,  Vulcan, Alberta, Canada
Soil Foodweb United Kingdom, Laverstoke Park,  UK
Coming soon -a second lab in Canada, one in Kenya, and in  Japan!

********************************************************
To unsubscribe from SANET-MG:
1- Visit http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html to unsubscribe or;
2- Send a message to <listserv@sare.org> from the address subscribed to the list. Type "unsubscribe sanet-mg" in the body of the message.

Visit the SANET-MG archives at: http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html.
Questions? Visit http://www.sare.org/about/sanetFAQ.htm.
For more information on grants and other resources available through the SARE program, please visit http://www.sare.org.

-------------------------------1158194766
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2963" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY:=20=
Arial"=20
bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7><FONT id=3Drol=
e_document=20
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>Perhaps there was a thread was about Terre Pieta, but my specific comme=
nt=20
was about charcoal.&nbsp; I believe I clearly indicated my response as being=
=20
about charcoal.&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Charcoal by definition is wood held at&nbsp;high temperature (175 to 18=
0=20
C)&nbsp;with low oxygen (doesn't burn but essentially crystallizes).&nbsp; T=
his=20
can be done mechanically, or can be done by biology.&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>If someone wants to develop a new term, for example "char", then a clea=
r=20
definition is required.&nbsp; Conditions for production of that material nee=
d to=20
be defined.&nbsp;&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>When people compost using woody materials, such as oak, pine, cedar,=20
eucalyptus, or other wide C:N bark, heartwood or sapwood, with other materia=
ls=20
(green plant material and high N containing material) on which the bacteria=20=
and=20
fungi grow rapidly, use up oxygen, and generate high heat (above 170 C), the=
n=20
conditions are correct to produce charcoal.&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Compost is&nbsp;NOT&nbsp;sterile at 175 C.&nbsp; Just because none of t=
he=20
organisms growing at those temperatures will grow on any lab culture plate,=20=
does=20
not mean those organisms do not exist.&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>But many&nbsp;conventional microbiology-based people&nbsp;make that=20
mistake.&nbsp; There are&nbsp;a huge number of species and high numbers of=20
individuals at high temperatures.&nbsp; Take a look at deep sea vents.&nbsp;=
=20
Check out the number of species in a ml of seawater, regardless of whether t=
hat=20
water is from deep ocean vents or from near-shore, or mid-depth.&nbsp; </DIV=
>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The reason that compost piles heat&nbsp;is through the heat released at=
 the=20
organisms grow.&nbsp;&nbsp;No organisms, no heat in a compost pile.&nbsp; If=
 you=20
have heat, you have growing organisms.&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>In Terre Pieta, there are a huge number of organisms.&nbsp; Which is mo=
re=20
likely to be more important&nbsp;to the production of the fertility of this=20
soil?&nbsp;&nbsp;Charcoal, the charred organic matter, or the organisms? </D=
IV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>----------</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>If you have a material that is compacted, it often&nbsp;lacks=20
oxygen.&nbsp;&nbsp;Mycorrhizal fungi are strict aerobes, and cannot grow=20
when&nbsp;oxygen is lacking.&nbsp; If&nbsp;material that structurally helps=20
oxygen move more easily into the material is added, the mycorrhizal fungi wi=
ll=20
be seen to grow more readily as the conditions restricting their growth are=20
alleviated.&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Did&nbsp;the structural material supply carbon?&nbsp; mineral=20
nutrients?&nbsp; or allow oxygen to move into the material?&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>What is the real explanation for the benefit of charcoal for mycorrhiza=
l=20
growth?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Elaine Ingham</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 9/13/2006 3:59:48 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,=20
nosliwelad@YAHOO.COM writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><=
FONT=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000=20
  size=3D2>Elaine,<BR><BR>&gt; Charcoal addition, WITHOUT ANY organisms, nut=
rient,=20
  or water<BR>&gt; addition with it, was what was being discussed.&nbsp; If=20=
you=20
  wish to<BR>&gt; add in other factors, along with the charcoal,&nbsp; then=20=
the=20
  <BR>&gt; discussion will be very different.<BR><BR>Part of the discussion=20=
is=20
  the indeterminacy of the term "charcoal." <BR>This subject is already "ver=
y=20
  different" because things other than pure<BR>thermogenic carbon are presen=
t in=20
  "char."<BR><BR>&gt; If you want to add all the other things besides charco=
al=20
  that<BR>&gt; are in Terra Preta, i.e., if you want to add bacteria,=20
  fungi,<BR>&gt; protozoa, nematodes, microarthropods, humus, fulvics,=20
  proteins,<BR>&gt; sugars. etc then we aren't talking&nbsp; about just char=
coal=20
  anymore.<BR><BR>That is part of the point of this discussion.&nbsp; The "c=
har"=20
  being<BR>discussed is a complex material.<BR>&nbsp; <BR>&gt; How long has=20=
it=20
  been since "black earth" was anaerobic?&nbsp; It<BR>&gt; does not has a=20
  sickening, stinky smell to it as it has been<BR>&gt; described to me.&nbsp=
; It=20
  is not low in oxygen.&nbsp; It is not hot.<BR>&gt; Terra Preta is not=20
  charcoal.<BR><BR>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_preta<BR>"Because of t=
heir=20
  elevated charcoal content, it is now widely accepted<BR>that these soils a=
re a=20
  product of indigenous soil management involving<BR>a labor intensive techn=
ique=20
  termed slash-and-char. The technique is<BR>differentiated from slash and b=
urn=20
  by a lower temperature burn and in<BR>being a tool for soil improvement.=20
  Amending soil with low temperature<BR>charcoal produced from a mix of wood=
 and=20
  leafy biomass (termed<BR>bio-char) has been observed to increase the activ=
ity=20
  of arbuscular<BR>mycorrhizal fungi."<BR><BR>&gt; Recalcitrance of any orga=
nic=20
  matter is relative, and I'll agree<BR>&gt; with Lutzow et all absolutely o=
n=20
  that statement.&nbsp; If you have no<BR>&gt; fungi in the "mix", the wider=
 C:N=20
  materials are going to have a<BR>&gt; hard time breaking down.&nbsp; If th=
e=20
  fungi that can use that wide<BR>&gt; C:N material are present, those=20
  "recalcitrant" materials can<BR>&gt; disappear pretty quickly.<BR><BR>The=20
  other part of this discussion, is the possibility that by=20
  thermally<BR>processing organic matter in the right way, it might be possi=
ble=20
  to<BR>very greatly increase the recalcitrance of the organic matter,=20
  while<BR>retaining soil-building value (beyond the value of ordinary=20
  charcoal). <BR>This seems to be what happened to these Terra Preta=20
  soils.&nbsp; Thermal<BR>processing might be a valuable way to make=20
  microbiologically stable OM<BR>amendments.<BR>&nbsp; <BR>&gt; If organic=20
  matter has been sterilized, or does not contain the<BR>&gt; organisms capa=
ble=20
  of breaking down the bonds in the material,<BR>&gt; then that material wil=
l=20
  appear "recalcitrant".<BR><BR>We are not talking about sterile systems.&nb=
sp;=20
  Sure, the biomass being<BR>thermally processed would be rendered sterile,=20=
but=20
  after you put it in<BR>the soil it will be colonized by the native flora a=
nd=20
  fauna.<BR>&nbsp; <BR>&gt; Restrict the information being considered to jus=
t=20
  what I was<BR>&gt; talking about, and do NOT add in all sorts of other=20
  things.<BR>&gt; Please don't muddy the conversation that was being=20
  held.<BR><BR>Elaine, it it too late!&nbsp; This was a murky, confusing, im=
pure=20
  thread<BR>from it's inception.&nbsp; I would urge you to keep an open=20
  mind.&nbsp; I don't<BR>think this is mainly about "charcoal" in the usual=20
  sense of the word.<BR><BR>Dale<BR></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" PTSIZE=3D"10"=
>Elaine R.=20
Ingham<BR>Soil Foodweb Inc., Corvallis, Oregon<BR>Soil Foodweb Inc., Port=20
Jefferson, New York<BR>Soil Foodweb Institute, Lismore Australia<BR>Soil Foo=
dweb=20
Institute Cambridge, New Zealand<BR>Laboratorios de Soil Foodweb, Culiacan,=20
Mexico<BR>Soil Foodweb South Africa, Polokwane, SA<BR>Soil Foodweb Canada,=20
Vulcan, Alberta, Canada<BR>Soil Foodweb United Kingdom, Laverstoke Park,=20
UK<BR>Coming soon -a second lab in Canada, one in Kenya, and in=20
Japan!</FONT></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>
<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><![if !supportEmptyParas]>&NBSP;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>*****************************************************</p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>To unsubscribe from SANET-MG:<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>1- Visit <a
href=3D"http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html">http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html</a>
and unsubscribe by typing in your e-mail address or;<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>2- Send a message to <a href=3D"mailto:listserv@sare.org">mailto:listserv@sare.org</a>
from the address subscribed to the list. Type &QUOT;unsubscribe sanet-mg&QUOT;
in the body of the message.<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&NBSP;<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>Visit the SANET-MG archives at: <a
href=3D"http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html">http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html</a><o:p></o:p>
<br>
Questions? Visit <a href=3D"http://www.sare.org/about/sanetFAQ.htm">http://www.sare.org/about/sanetFAQ.htm</a>.
</p>


<p class=3DMsoNormal><![if !supportEmptyParas]>&NBSP;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

-------------------------------1158194766--



From - Thu Oct 05 08:03:42 2006
X-UIDL: 368725217
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv1.intrex.net [209.42.192.236] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-8.04) id A31FE5D00D6; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 07:57:19 -0400
Received: by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix)
	id 1C486A9C1; Thu,  5 Oct 2006 07:57:19 -0400 (EDT)
Delivered-To: lfl@intrex.net
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EED17AA2E
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Thu,  5 Oct 2006 07:57:18 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (if-srv-listserv.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.252.37])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAC9DAF65
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Thu,  5 Oct 2006 07:57:13 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from if-srv-listserv (localhost) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00093C6E@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 7:56:57 -0400
Received: by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 14.5) with spool id
          1080578 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 07:56:57
          -0400
Received: from chert.unet.maine.edu by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT
          v1.1b) with SMTP id <4.0003CB0E@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Thu, 5 Oct 2006
          7:56:57 -0400
Received: from chert.unet.maine.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by
          chert.unet.maine.edu (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k95Burgx023323
          (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT)
          for <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 07:56:53 -0400
Received: (from apache@localhost) by chert.unet.maine.edu
          (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id k95BuqvW023308 for
          SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 11:56:52 GMT
X-Authentication-Warning: chert.unet.maine.edu: apache set sender to
                         ann-marie.fortuna@maine.edu using -f
Received: from 72.65.108.169 (pool-72-65-108-169.ptldme.east.verizon.net
          [72.65.108.169]) by mail1.maine.edu (Horde MIME library) with HTTP;
          Thu,  5 Oct 2006 11:56:52 +0000
References: <20061004170723.72301.qmail@web39711.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
            <00f601c6e7e6$b8437200$6501a8c0@industrixv3dos>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed"
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) H3 (4.1.3)
X-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information
X-MailScanner: Found to be clean
X-MailScanner-From: ann-marie.fortuna@maine.edu
Message-ID:  <20061005115652.322m861dkcoko8cw@mail1.maine.edu>
Date:         Thu, 5 Oct 2006 11:56:52 +0000
Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: Ann-Marie Fortuna <ann-marie.fortuna@MAINE.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] Testing a product that reduces irrigation requirements
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <00f601c6e7e6$b8437200$6501a8c0@industrixv3dos>
Precedence: list
List-Help: <http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?LIST=SANET-MG>,
           <mailto:LISTSERV@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU?body=INFO SANET-MG>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:SANET-MG-unsubscribe-request@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:SANET-MG-subscribe-request@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
List-Owner: <mailto:SANET-MG-request@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
List-Archive: <http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?LIST=SANET-MG>
X-Virus-Scanned: by viruswatch at intrex.net
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.252.37]
X-Note: Total weight is 2. SPAMHEADERS
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@mail.intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 368725217
X-NAS-BWL: No match found for 'ann-marie.fortuna@MAINE.EDU' (172 addresses, 0 domains)
X-NAS-Language: English
X-NAS-Bayes: #0: 1.01805E-149; #1: 1
X-NAS-Classification: 0
X-NAS-MessageID: 30273
X-NAS-Validation: {90DCBAEC-C7A3-4555-A807-A22CA8B4B85E}

Dear Nicola,

I would mot be able to test your product but would like to know what =20
is in it. Actinomycetes?

Thanks,

Ann-Marie


Quoting Frank Schultz <wb5ayy@AIRCANOPY.NET>:

> Dear Nicola,
>
> Yes, I would be interested.  Farm about 15 acres and pasture about  =20
> eight acres.  Am converting to organic.
>
> Am located in Red Oak (Ellis County), Texas.  Received less than 19" =20
>  rain last year and less than 17" rain this year.
>
> Is this the sort of situation you have in mind?
>
> Frank Schultz
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Nicola Kinsella Melvin
>   To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
>   Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 12:07 PM
>   Subject: [SANET-MG] Testing a product that reduces irrigation requiremen=
ts
>
>
>   Hello,
>   I'm in the process of organizing tests of an organic product,  =20
> developed in Norway, designed to reduce the irrigation required to  =20
> grow crops by about 50%. The tests I'm organizing are going to be  =20
> conducted in Australia next growing season (planting will be  =20
> August-September 2007).
>
>   I don't work for the company that has developed it, I'm just  =20
> curious about bringing the technology into Australia (assuming it  =20
> works as well there as it has in their African tests) due to the  =20
> constant water shortages there.
>
>   A company representative is going to be the US in late  =20
> October/early November, and I know they are looking to conduct tests =20
>  here, and I was wondering if there was anyone on the list from some =20
>  of the drier states (CA, TX, ???) who would be interested in (and  =20
> set up to conduct) testing. The product has to be applied in liquid  =20
> form, so someone who is used to applying liquid based fertilizers  =20
> would probably be preferable.
>
>   If so, please let me know.
>
>   Regards,
>   Nicola
>
>   &NBSP;
>
>   *****************************************************
>
>   To unsubscribe from SANET-MG:
>
>   1- Visit http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html and  =20
> unsubscribe by typing in your e-mail address or;
>
>   2- Send a message to mailto:listserv@sare.org from the address  =20
> subscribed to the list. Type "unsubscribe sanet-mg" in the body of  =20
> the message.
>
>   &NBSP;
>
>   Visit the SANET-MG archives at:  =20
> http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html
>   Questions? Visit http://www.sare.org/about/sanetFAQ.htm.
>
>   &NBSP;
>
> ********************************************************
> To unsubscribe from SANET-MG:
> 1- Visit http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html to unsubscribe or;
> 2- Send a message to <listserv@sare.org> from the address subscribed =20
>  to the list. Type "unsubscribe sanet-mg" in the body of the message.
>
> Visit the SANET-MG archives at: http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.ht=
ml.
> Questions? Visit http://www.sare.org/about/sanetFAQ.htm.
> For more information on grants and other resources available through =20
>  the SARE program, please visit http://www.sare.org.
>

********************************************************
To unsubscribe from SANET-MG:
1- Visit http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html to unsubscribe or;
2- Send a message to <listserv@sare.org> from the address subscribed to the list. Type "unsubscribe sanet-mg" in the body of the message.

Visit the SANET-MG archives at: http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html.
Questions? Visit http://www.sare.org/about/sanetFAQ.htm.
For more information on grants and other resources available through the SARE program, please visit http://www.sare.org.



From - Sun Jul 08 04:41:46 2007
X-UIDL: 368794702
X-Mozilla-Status: 0013
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv1.intrex.net [209.42.192.236] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-8.04) id A34564F3001E; Sun, 08 Jul 2007 01:16:53 -0400
Received: by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix)
	id F1AB8266976; Sun,  8 Jul 2007 01:15:01 -0400 (EDT)
Delivered-To: lfl@intrex.net
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90EA7266972
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Sun,  8 Jul 2007 01:15:01 -0400 (EDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: by viruswatch at intrex.net
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (if-srv-listserv.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.252.37])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECF3C266925
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Sun,  8 Jul 2007 01:15:00 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from if-srv-listserv (localhost) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <4.001220A7@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; 8 Jul 2007 1:14:43 -0400
Received: by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 14.5) with spool id
          7249387 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU; Sun, 8 Jul 2007 01:14:42
          -0400
Received: from qmail.megared.net.mx by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT
          v1.1b) with SMTP id <1.00122007@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; 8 Jul 2007
          1:14:42 -0400
Received: (qmail 2419 invoked from network); 8 Jul 2007 05:14:41 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO shield.megared.net.mx) ([10.0.57.151])
          (envelope-sender <cedecor@gmx.net>) by qmail.megared.net.mx
          (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for <sanet-mg@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; 8 Jul
          2007 05:14:41 -0000
Received: from shield.megared.net.mx (root@localhost) by shield.megared.net.mx
          (8.11.7/8.11.0) with ESMTP id l685Ef939954 for
          <sanet-mg@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sun, 8 Jul 2007 00:14:41 -0500 (CDT)
          (envelope-from cedecor@gmx.net)
Received: from LENOVO-F4647E39 ([10.74.65.35]) by shield.megared.net.mx
          (8.11.7/8.11.0) with ESMTP id l685EfS39948 for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Sun, 8 Jul 2007 00:14:41 -0500 (CDT)
          (envelope-from cedecor@gmx.net)
X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.98.4) Professional
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
References: <46860F6C.4050305@intrex.net>
            <BAY117-F35DAB41976F87953951C78C4010@phx.gbl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Anti-Virus: Kaspersky Anti-Virus for MailServers 5.5.10/RELEASE,
              bases: 08072007 #337315, status: clean
Message-ID:  <1319826152.20070708001421@gmx.net>
Date:         Sun, 8 Jul 2007 00:14:21 +0200
Reply-To: Douglas Hinds <cedecor@gmx.net>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: Douglas Hinds <cedecor@GMX.NET>
Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C.
Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] nutrition in a bottle or a bag? ( was: have british food academics gone rancid?)
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <BAY117-F35DAB41976F87953951C78C4010@phx.gbl>
Precedence: list
List-Help: <http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?LIST=SANET-MG>,
           <mailto:LISTSERV@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU?body=INFO SANET-MG>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:SANET-MG-unsubscribe-request@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:SANET-MG-subscribe-request@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
List-Owner: <mailto:SANET-MG-request@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
List-Archive: <http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?LIST=SANET-MG>
X-SpamTest-AGR: Flagged AGR Test
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.252.37]
X-Note: Total weight is 8. SPAMHEADERS, SUBJSPACES-10, SUBJSPACES-15, WEIGHT5
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@mail.intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 368794702
X-NAS-BWL: Found match for 'cedecor@GMX.NET' on the allowed list (374 addresses, 0 domains)
X-NAS-Classification: 0
X-NAS-MessageID: 92846
X-NAS-Validation: {90DCBAEC-C7A3-4555-A807-A22CA8B4B85E}

>> ... mixing compost with rock dust will help prevent leaching of
>> the nutrients in the compost. Micronutrients in the dust will
>> nourish the bacteria and fungi in the compost creating new
>> nutrient cycling, tieing up some NPK in the compost by those
>> microorganisms which then release them to your trees while
>> significantly enriching your soil mix with substances (chitin)
>> that contribute to tilth and water and nutrient holding capacity.

>> That alone should increase total nutrient availability to your
>> trees. I would use 50/50 rockdust/compost...

>> Have you considered applying enhanced compost tea? ...

> I prefer the addition of a generous amount of compost each year,
> as I am primarily interested in the constant build-up of organic
> and humic matter at the base of the trees, and its interaction
> with the soil.

The primary function of compost tea is not to enhance the soil's
fertility but rather, to increase the presence, activity and
diversity of soil microorganisms that generate growth stimulating
phyto-hormones and substances with antibiotic activity against
pathogens.

IOW: Although soil organisms are also responsible for capturing and
facilitating the assimilation of nutrients by plants, compost tea is
used as a means to provide resistance to pests and disease to a
greater extent than compost, since it adheres to the plant's foliage
- something compost doesn't do.

One is mainly directed toward soil improvement, the other toward
crop protection.

...

> I live in Israel, ... It would probably be cheaper for you to get
> your Barhis from the west coast (they grow them there, right?).

Not on the coast, in the desert - the Imperial and Cochella Valleys,
and the Sonora Desert.

> Anyhow, if anyone on the list is interested in this kind of
> bartering, we grow medjool, deglet-noor, barhi and zahidi
> varieties.

What's your soil like? Zahidi's tend to do better than Deglet's in
heavier soils, while Deglet's do better in powdery ones.

-- 

Douglas

********************************************************
To unsubscribe from SANET-MG:
1- Visit http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html to unsubscribe or;
2- Send a message to <listserv@sare.org> from the address subscribed to the list. Type "unsubscribe sanet-mg" in the body of the message.

Visit the SANET-MG archives at: http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html.
Questions? Visit http://www.sare.org/about/sanetFAQ.htm.
For more information on grants and other resources available through the SARE program, please visit http://www.sare.org.



From - Sun Jul 08 15:17:26 2007
X-UIDL: 368794902
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv1.intrex.net [209.42.192.236] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-8.04) id AE1CF58E006E; Sun, 08 Jul 2007 14:34:04 -0400
Received: by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix)
	id A4A5A266AE2; Sun,  8 Jul 2007 14:32:11 -0400 (EDT)
Delivered-To: lfl@intrex.net
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8369D266767
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Sun,  8 Jul 2007 14:32:11 -0400 (EDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: by viruswatch at intrex.net
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (lists.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.252.37])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBA70266B90
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Sun,  8 Jul 2007 14:32:10 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from if-srv-listserv (localhost) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00179729@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; 8 Jul 2007 14:31:49 -0400
Received: by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 14.5) with spool id
          7265789 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU; Sun, 8 Jul 2007 14:31:49
          -0400
Received: from qmail.megared.net.mx by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT
          v1.1b) with SMTP id <6.00122827@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; 8 Jul 2007
          14:31:48 -0400
Received: (qmail 25543 invoked from network); 8 Jul 2007 18:31:48 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO shield2.megared.net.mx) ([10.0.57.152])
          (envelope-sender <cedecor@gmx.net>) by qmail.megared.net.mx
          (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for <sanet-mg@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; 8 Jul
          2007 18:31:48 -0000
Received: from shield2.megared.net.mx (root@localhost) by
          shield2.megared.net.mx (8.11.7/8.11.0) with ESMTP id l68IVm396706 for
          <sanet-mg@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sun, 8 Jul 2007 13:31:48 -0500 (CDT)
          (envelope-from cedecor@gmx.net)
Received: from LENOVO-F4647E39 ([10.74.65.35]) by shield2.megared.net.mx
          (8.11.7/8.11.0) with ESMTP id l68IVlE96698 for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Sun, 8 Jul 2007 13:31:47 -0500 (CDT)
          (envelope-from cedecor@gmx.net)
X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.98.4) Professional
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
References: <46860F6C.4050305@intrex.net>           
            <BAY117-F35DAB41976F87953951C78C4010@phx.gbl> 
            <1319826152.20070708001421@gmx.net>
            <000e01c7c179$7008b190$6401a8c0@SALS>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Anti-Virus: Kaspersky Anti-Virus for MailServers 5.5.10/RELEASE,
              bases: 08072007 #337462, status: clean
Message-ID:  <1652013513.20070708133127@gmx.net>
Date:         Sun, 8 Jul 2007 13:31:27 +0200
Reply-To: Douglas Hinds <cedecor@gmx.net>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: Douglas Hinds <cedecor@GMX.NET>
Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C.
Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] nutrition in a bottle or a bag? ( was: have british food academics gone rancid?)
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <000e01c7c179$7008b190$6401a8c0@SALS>
Precedence: list
List-Help: <http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?LIST=SANET-MG>,
           <mailto:LISTSERV@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU?body=INFO SANET-MG>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:SANET-MG-unsubscribe-request@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:SANET-MG-subscribe-request@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
List-Owner: <mailto:SANET-MG-request@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
List-Archive: <http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?LIST=SANET-MG>
X-SpamTest-AGR: Flagged AGR Test
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.252.37]
X-Note: Total weight is 8. SPAMHEADERS, SUBJSPACES-10, SUBJSPACES-15, WEIGHT5
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@mail.intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 368794902
X-NAS-BWL: Found match for 'cedecor@GMX.NET' on the allowed list (374 addresses, 0 domains)
X-NAS-Classification: 0
X-NAS-MessageID: 93046
X-NAS-Validation: {90DCBAEC-C7A3-4555-A807-A22CA8B4B85E}

> couldn't u add a good compost tea to the compost and get the best
> of both worlds?

One goes into the soil, the other coats the plant.

> this may also give the life in the tea something to eat while
> waiting for something to grow. Life needs life and putting out
> compost tea with a food supply sound like a good idea to me to me
> unless there is lots of food for that life growing now.

The tea concentrates the quantity and extends the application of the
microorganisms responsible for the biological foundations of
agriculture - in itself, an organism based activity. The products
discussed are simply two different applications of that.

So while I agree that both applications are complementary, what you
suggest prevents one of them from fulfilling it's function.

As Elaine has often said, much remains to be learned about the
multiple benefits provided by soil microorganisms.

Nine years ago I purchased a copy of "Investigaciones Hoy", a
magazine published by Mexico's Instituto Politecnico Nacional
(IPN), which contained an article describing seven fungi and six
bacteria that produce Auxins, Giberelines, Cytokinins, Abscisic Acid
and Ethylenes (all of which are considered phyto-hormones, as well
as the actions of each on plants. (I am translating from the Spanish
forms of these words so some may be misspelled in English).

That same year I searched through bio-medical databases for
additional information on some of these organisms and was pleased to
confirm that substances with antibiotic activity against pathogens
are also produced (not surprising, considering that antibiotics were
developed from soil microorganisms), by at least some of those
organisms mentioned in the IPN article.

So if you want to inoculate a plants roots against pathogens that
attack those roots, adding compost tea containing the appropriate
beneficial microorganisms to the soil around those roots might be
wise. But that would be less helpful if you're trying to prevent the
infestation or infection of other tissues.

> Like at my place there is lots for the life in the compost tea to
> feast on but maybe some places might benefit with the tea and its
> food put out at the same time. just a thought

Don't stop thinking. (I know you won't).

As I understand it, compost tea rapidly concentrates and permits the
application of the same microorganisms found in the compost you make
it from to the rest of the plant.

In order to determine your best course of action, you need to know
what you should be guarding against. If your present regimen has
been sufficient with respect to disease prevention, maybe you don't
need to apply compost tea.

Elaine promotes the need for performing a kind of soil analysis
that's not readily available. She's doing that in her Oregon lab
(north of your location), but whether you want or need to go that
route is another matter. It *would* tell you what you have in your
soil, microbiologically speaking.

In addition to knowing what your potential pathogens are and which
tissues they attack, knowing which microorganisms are likely to be
effective against them and how to make sure they are present in your
soil and on your plant -if that's where you need them- would be
helpful.

Is this kind of information even available? Maybe some of sanet's
academics can answer that.

As things stand, a generalized belief in the power of the diversity,
presence and activity of the kind of microorganisms you obtain by
brewing aerobic compost tea to stimulate growth and prevent disease
is probably driving most of those using it.

The question is: Is that enough? Or should we know more?

If so: Why is so much funding channeled toward a research agenda
that focuses on reinventing (subverting, actually) an evolutionary
path that took millions of years to create?

Why are aren't the issues mentioned above being addressed instead?

Are we going to study, understand and work *with* natural biological
systems or continue to labor in bad faith - against the systems that
gave rise to ourselves and life on earth as we know it?

Or is that message too hard to package and sell?

-- 

Douglas

********************************************************
To unsubscribe from SANET-MG:
1- Visit http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html to unsubscribe or;
2- Send a message to <listserv@sare.org> from the address subscribed to the list. Type "unsubscribe sanet-mg" in the body of the message.

Visit the SANET-MG archives at: http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html.
Questions? Visit http://www.sare.org/about/sanetFAQ.htm.
For more information on grants and other resources available through the SARE program, please visit http://www.sare.org.



From - Mon Jul 09 13:14:11 2007
X-UIDL: 368795232
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv1.intrex.net [209.42.192.236] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-8.04) id AA96B5EC0068; Mon, 09 Jul 2007 10:47:50 -0400
Received: by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix)
	id 51C9B266E48; Mon,  9 Jul 2007 10:45:56 -0400 (EDT)
Delivered-To: lfl@intrex.net
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DBB2266CE7
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Mon,  9 Jul 2007 10:45:55 -0400 (EDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: by viruswatch at intrex.net
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (if-srv-listserv.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.252.37])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16697266CF8
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Mon,  9 Jul 2007 10:41:15 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from if-srv-listserv (localhost) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <2.001232DB@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Mon, 9 Jul 2007 10:40:49 -0400
Received: by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 14.5) with spool id
          7294318 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU; Mon, 9 Jul 2007 10:40:49
          -0400
Received: from qmail.megared.net.mx by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT
          v1.1b) with SMTP id <7.0008851E@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Mon, 9 Jul 2007
          10:40:49 -0400
Received: (qmail 23186 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2007 14:40:48 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO shield2.megared.net.mx) ([10.0.57.152])
          (envelope-sender <cedecor@gmx.net>) by qmail.megared.net.mx
          (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for <sanet-mg@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; 9 Jul
          2007 14:40:48 -0000
Received: from shield2.megared.net.mx (root@localhost) by
          shield2.megared.net.mx (8.11.7/8.11.0) with ESMTP id l69Eelk96112 for
          <sanet-mg@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Mon, 9 Jul 2007 09:40:47 -0500 (CDT)
          (envelope-from cedecor@gmx.net)
Received: from LENOVO-F4647E39 ([10.74.65.35]) by shield2.megared.net.mx
          (8.11.7/8.11.0) with ESMTP id l69EelE96102 for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Mon, 9 Jul 2007 09:40:47 -0500 (CDT)
          (envelope-from cedecor@gmx.net)
X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.98.4) Professional
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
References: <BAY117-F31C6EB17CE352CF1817521B3060@phx.gbl>
            <1987856689.20070709065625@gmx.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Anti-Virus: Kaspersky Anti-Virus for MailServers 5.5.10/RELEASE,
              bases: 09072007 #337849, status: clean
Message-ID:  <866998860.20070709094027@gmx.net>
Date:         Mon, 9 Jul 2007 09:40:27 +0200
Reply-To: Douglas Hinds <cedecor@gmx.net>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: Douglas Hinds <cedecor@GMX.NET>
Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C.
Subject: [SANET-MG] Measurments (Was:  brix)
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <1987856689.20070709065625@gmx.net>
Precedence: list
List-Help: <http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?LIST=SANET-MG>,
           <mailto:LISTSERV@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU?body=INFO SANET-MG>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:SANET-MG-unsubscribe-request@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:SANET-MG-subscribe-request@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
List-Owner: <mailto:SANET-MG-request@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
List-Archive: <http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?LIST=SANET-MG>
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.252.37]
X-Note: Total weight is 2. SPAMHEADERS
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@mail.intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 368795232
X-NAS-BWL: Found match for 'cedecor@GMX.NET' on the allowed list (374 addresses, 0 domains)
X-NAS-Classification: 0
X-NAS-MessageID: 93375
X-NAS-Validation: {90DCBAEC-C7A3-4555-A807-A22CA8B4B85E}

As I understand the issue:

What basic model should guide us when analyzing Soil, Plants and/or Fruit?
Productivity, Health, Quality, Content and Performance are factors
that all come into play at the plant, crop, farmer and consumer
levels.

The soil is an environment that (like all environments), sustains
living organisms of a given type and depends on a number of
biological processes; and the same can be said about the conditions
present above ground.

The right combination of questions and answers can help lead a
farmer to sustainability; the wrong combination is inconclusive.
Determining which factors are significant depends on one's goals,
and those will vary. For instance:

Potassium is a key determinant for brix production in pineapple, a
crop which requires a minimum brix level in order to maintain it's
quality. However, brix is not a positive goal in avocados, oil
content is; and avocado oil content depends on the variety and the
rate of growth, which is affected by temperature.

I can't compare the importance and effects of K metabolism in
pineapple and avocados at the moment. The point is: THE FOCUS AND
IMPORTANCE OF OBTAINABLE ANALYTICAL DATA IS CROP DEPENDENT:

What you need in the soil depends on the needs of the plant - and
the truth of that goes beyond the nutritional needs of the each crop.

We have already mentioned the importance of knowing which pests and
diseases are likely to appear in particular crops in your area
during the growing season in which you intend to cultivate your
crops.

We have also mentioned the importance of maintaining a soil
environment containing a healthy balance of beneficial soil
microorganisms, as a means of protecting against soil pathogens.

(Is anyone here testing for that)?

So rather than supply an all encompassing answer, I am pointing to
a good place to start.

Are databases containing this kind of information* readily available?

*
The nutritional needs of specific crops under defined climatic
conditions;

Biological and mineral sources of specific plant nutrients;

The metabological role played by each nutrient in each plant,

The pests and diseases common to specific crops;

The substances produced by each soil microorganism and the activity
of each;

The set of conditions required for the optimum production
of each substance;

The target pest of each predator, parasite and pathogen and the
sources of same; etc.

Without that type of information, what are you analyzing for and
what good will the results of your analysis give you? Am I the only
one here that believes this is important)?

> Conclusions

> Results compiled during this rigorous two-year empirical study of
> eight San Joaquin Valley vineyards (including five organic
> operations) provide no consistent support for the alleged
> predictive Brix / leafhopper relationship as it has been widely
> promoted in recent years. ...

> "Plants with high (a Brix reading above 12) sugar content also
> have good 'immune systems."' ...

Less than 12 Brix is inadequate for pineapple and the varieties that
currently dominate the U.S. market require much more.

-- 

Douglas

********************************************************
To unsubscribe from SANET-MG:
1- Visit http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html to unsubscribe or;
2- Send a message to <listserv@sare.org> from the address subscribed to the list. Type "unsubscribe sanet-mg" in the body of the message.

Visit the SANET-MG archives at: http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html.
Questions? Visit http://www.sare.org/about/sanetFAQ.htm.
For more information on grants and other resources available through the SARE program, please visit http://www.sare.org.



From - Sun Jul 08 20:22:41 2007
X-UIDL: 368794986
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
X-Mozilla-Status2: 02000000
Received: from mailserv1.intrex.net [209.42.192.236] by intrex.net with ESMTP
  (SMTPD32-8.04) id ADAE657D0064; Sun, 08 Jul 2007 19:05:18 -0400
Received: by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix)
	id 259932668ED; Sun,  8 Jul 2007 19:03:25 -0400 (EDT)
Delivered-To: lfl@intrex.net
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB97C2668DA
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Sun,  8 Jul 2007 19:03:24 -0400 (EDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: by viruswatch at intrex.net
Received: from lists.ifas.ufl.edu (lists.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.252.37])
	by mailserv1.intrex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6788C2668A0
	for <lfl@INTREX.NET>; Sun,  8 Jul 2007 19:03:24 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from if-srv-listserv (localhost) by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0017992E@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; 8 Jul 2007 19:03:10 -0400
Received: by LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 14.5) with spool id
          7270963 for SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU; Sun, 8 Jul 2007 19:03:10
          -0400
Received: from qmail.megared.net.mx by lists.ifas.ufl.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT
          v1.1b) with SMTP id <5.00122935@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; 8 Jul 2007
          19:03:09 -0400
Received: (qmail 29035 invoked from network); 8 Jul 2007 23:03:09 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO shield.megared.net.mx) ([10.0.57.151])
          (envelope-sender <cedecor@gmx.net>) by qmail.megared.net.mx
          (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for <sanet-mg@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; 8 Jul
          2007 23:03:09 -0000
Received: from shield.megared.net.mx (root@localhost) by shield.megared.net.mx
          (8.11.7/8.11.0) with ESMTP id l68N39e32005 for
          <sanet-mg@lists.ifas.ufl.edu>; Sun, 8 Jul 2007 18:03:09 -0500 (CDT)
          (envelope-from cedecor@gmx.net)
Received: from LENOVO-F4647E39 ([10.74.65.35]) by shield.megared.net.mx
          (8.11.7/8.11.0) with ESMTP id l68N38S31998 for
          <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>; Sun, 8 Jul 2007 18:03:08 -0500 (CDT)
          (envelope-from cedecor@gmx.net)
X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.98.4) Professional
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
References: <468E81DF.4060404@intrex.net>
            <000301c7c1a2$887bdcb0$4bd5869f@Targadc5fefe82d>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Anti-Virus: Kaspersky Anti-Virus for MailServers 5.5.10/RELEASE,
              bases: 09072007 #337542, status: clean
Message-ID:  <1054797779.20070708180248@gmx.net>
Date:         Sun, 8 Jul 2007 18:02:48 +0200
Reply-To: Douglas Hinds <cedecor@gmx.net>
Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
From: Douglas Hinds <cedecor@GMX.NET>
Organization: CeDeCoR, A.C.
Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] BBC NEWS | UK | England | Tyne/Wear | Researchers hail organic potatoes
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <000301c7c1a2$887bdcb0$4bd5869f@Targadc5fefe82d>
Precedence: list
List-Help: <http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?LIST=SANET-MG>,
           <mailto:LISTSERV@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU?body=INFO SANET-MG>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:SANET-MG-unsubscribe-request@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:SANET-MG-subscribe-request@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
List-Owner: <mailto:SANET-MG-request@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
List-Archive: <http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?LIST=SANET-MG>
X-Declude-Sender: owner-sanet-mg@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU [128.227.252.37]
X-Note: Total weight is 4. SPAMHEADERS, SUBJSPACES-10
X-RCPT-TO: <lfl@mail.intrex.net>
Status: U
X-UIDL: 368794986
X-NAS-BWL: Found match for 'cedecor@GMX.NET' on the allowed list (374 addresses, 0 domains)
X-NAS-Classification: 0
X-NAS-MessageID: 93130
X-NAS-Validation: {90DCBAEC-C7A3-4555-A807-A22CA8B4B85E}

John D'hondt wrote:

> so far my own spuds, mixture of many varieties, are healthy enough
> where it seems that many professional growers in Ireland are
> plowing their blighted crops under at this moment in one of the
> most blight prone years seen for a long time. Seems that gallons
> of Dithane did not save them.

This is what the dowagro.com website says about it's specialty
fungicide dithane:

  Attention: This product contains mancozeb and ETU, chemicals known
  to the state of California to cause cancer. ETU is also known to
  the state of California to cause birth defects or other
  reproductive harm.

Non-selective, cancer causing fungicides are not the answer.
The future of agriculture requires a different mentality.

Where fungal blight is a problem, try inoculating seed potatoes with
Pitholithus Tintorius, a beneficial fungus known to promote plant
growth and produce substances with antibiotic activity against
pathological fungi.

-- 

Douglas

********************************************************
To unsubscribe from SANET-MG:
1- Visit http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html to unsubscribe or;
2- Send a message to <listserv@sare.org> from the address subscribed to the list. Type "unsubscribe sanet-mg" in the body of the message.

Visit the SANET-MG archives at: http://lists.sare.org/archives/sanet-mg.html.
Questions? Visit http://www.sare.org/about/sanetFAQ.htm.
For more information on grants and other resources available through the SARE program, please visit http://www.sare.org.



