Subject: [compost_tea] Re: metal chelates-application rates

From: "ericgoodenough" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 13:16:04 -0000

International Ag Labs notes that our soils are deficient in copper

and manganese.  Recommendation:  10# copper sulfate and 10# manganse

sulfate applied to soil, ideally in fall.  I don't want to wait until

fall and I like the efficiency of foliar applications.  Metal

chelates (for instance Baicor products, I gather, are much more plant

friendly and more quickly assimilable as they have already been

processed by plant enzymes, etc. (I'm a little fuzzy on the science,

can you tell?)

Folks at Baicor (Dr. Miller) have suggested using their organically

certified chelates.  Both the copper and manganese solutions are 5%.

Dr. Miller says flat out that he does not know the effect of the

chelates on microbes in tea but suspects that any antagonistic

effects might be concentration dependent.  He does not feel that the

chelates will have a negative effect on the metabolites that are in

the tea, but is unsure about organisms themselves.  He says the

chelates will internalize quickly into the plant and not remain on

the leaf.

Dr. Miller's recommendation is for 1 - 2 gallons of Manganese chelate

and 0.5 to 1 gallon of copper chelate.  In our case that would be

mixed with approximately 200 gallons of water and 20 gallons of tea

for our foliar program (four 50 gallon tanks per acre with chelate,

tea, kelp, fish, molasses, minerals and spreader/sticker).  It's our

hope that the copper chelate and the tea will be helfpul with apple

scab (Venturia sp.)and help make up plant tissue and soil

deficiencies through translocation.

Thanks for any comments.

--- In [email-masked], soilfoodweb@a... wrote:

> The effect on the microorganisms depends on concentration.  In

general, when a heavy metal is chelated, it is must less likely to be

toxic directly to the microoganisms, unless at high concentration.

> So, what is the level you will apply?  Generally trees need just a

tiny amount of a heavy metal, especially when the metal is chelated,

so I expect you would not apply much concentration.

> But expectation and reality can be far apart, so let us know how

much you are putting on....

> Elaine Ingham

> President, Soil Foodweb Inc.

> SFI Corvallis, OR

> SFI Port Jefferson, NY

> SFI Lismore, NSW, Australia

> SFI Hilversum, The Netherlands

> SFI Cambridge, New Zealand

> SFI Culiacan, Mexico

> SFI Jerome, Idaho

> http://www.soilfoodweb.com

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From: "ericgoodenough" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 12:38:32 -0000

Thanks, Ted.  Yes, leaf assays showed similar deficiencies as soil

assays.  Although there are some who claim that leaf assays are

limited to an index since some of the measures dissipate

(volatilize?) soon after detachment from the plant and in transit or

while awaiting the assay.

Your point about <our soil showed that we needed certain inputs but

plant assays showed as if the soil had adequate minerals for plant

health> is interesting.  There are some who claim that elements may

be transmuted (is that the right term?) from one element to another.

Not hard to accept, really, it's just an electrical phenomemon.  I

don't think we should underestimate our plant brethren.

In addition, I've heard it said that plants may take fully 80% of

their nutrition from the atmosphere.  Lots of C, O, N, H and others

there for sure!  Conventional linear thinking has us duped into

believing the "dirt" merely props the plant up and stuff needs to be

added for a plant to grow.  80%!  Kind of puts a different spin on

our soil-borne efforts, no?  In other words, assuming a perfect

atmosphere (right!), then if a plant is sufficient or deficient, it's

what we are doing or not doing in the soil (the 20%, if you will)

that makes the difference (GMO's and variety differences aside).  Fix

the 20% to harvest the 80%?  Pretty good investment.

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