Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] BBC NEWS | UK | England | Tyne/Wear | Researchers hail organic potatoes

From: sals <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 14:08:32 -0700

ok I understand now.  thanks for taking the time again.   I understand that 
plants are best if seed is raised on the  same land and the plant each 
generation get more adapted to that place.  I seen on TV one time that a 
farmer was saving corn seed growing  on their land for over 50 years when 
some GMO contaminated that organic corn that was in her family for so long. 
I think it was bill Moyer.  I felt so sorry for them as it not only took 
away their organicness but also  killed  all those years of work.    I 
understand what your saying about plants do get use to specific conditions. 
thanks for the reminder.

> I have called my system "soil immunization".
> A few other things I do is plant a mixture of several varieties and every 
> year we grow a portion of next years seed potatoes from real seed. Also, 
> everything is home produced. We found at an early stage that home grown 
> seed potatoes did about twice as well than bought in certified seed. So we 
> have not bought seed in for more than 10 years.
>
> I have explained in another mail to Lawrence that we did more or less the 
> same for a few other crops. For instance sweet corn outside is not an easy 
> thing to grow here. Too cold and too wet usually. But for the last 15 
> years now we have grown sweet corn quite reliably, every time saving our 
> own seed until we had a variety that could survive and thrive here under 
> our specific conditions and without any chemicals.
> john
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---

From: John D'hondt <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 00:03:35 +0100

> can understand that i have seen in a lot of cases here that the benifical
> does not show up till there is lots of the plage here  for them to work 
> on. then what did U do.      i know if you make compost tea out of the bad 
> stuff you get more bad stuff.  garbage in garbage out so im interested in 
> just how u did not just grow the blight but instead and how did what u did 
> turn it around.  I would like to hear a little more.????.

Sal I have explained my system on sanet at least twice and in great detail. 
I have called my system "soil immunization".
A few other things I do is plant a mixture of several varieties and every 
year we grow a portion of next years seed potatoes from real seed. Also, 
everything is home produced. We found at an early stage that home grown seed 
potatoes did about twice as well than bought in certified seed. So we have 
not bought seed in for more than 10 years.

I have explained in another mail to Lawrence that we did more or less the 
same for a few other crops. For instance sweet corn outside is not an easy 
thing to grow here. Too cold and too wet usually. But for the last 15 years 
now we have grown sweet corn quite reliably, every time saving our own seed 
until we had a variety that could survive and thrive here under our specific 
conditions and without any chemicals.
john

---

From: Douglas Hinds <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 10:39:32 +0200

John responded to Lawrence's suggestion:

>> While we're at it we might as well put together a complete list
>> of all soil-dwelling growth promoting, disease preventing,
>> nitrogen-fixing, soil health and biodiversity-building
>> microorganisms, invertebrates and other organisms. Elaine has a
>> list of 7 of the most important. We could use them as primary
>> categories to build on.

as follows:

> I am probably a great disappointment to others in my profession of
> biologist but I have so far not had too much interest in species
> specific relationships in soil. We know there are at least 25.000
> (maybe 40.000) different species of micro organism in an average
> spoonful of soil. The number of possible relationships between all
> these organisms is a bit too complex for my purpose (which was
> growing potatoes organically in Ireland without having problems
> with blight).

> My reasoning was that there was probably some organism in all that
> lot that would live on Phytophtora infestans ([potato] blight) and
> that would thus protect potato crops from this disease if only it
> were plentiful enough. To get it plentiful I grew blight prone
> potato varieties and let the diseased plant-parts rot in situ then
> planted more potatoes on top that I left in the ground over the
> wettest winter imaginable.

> As I explained before on this list (it is slightly more complex
> than the very shortened story here) I have been able to grow
> potatoes absolutely blight free for at least 15 years now. Whether
> my guardian angel organism is Pisolithus tinctorius I doubt
> because we don't have "dog-turd-mushrooms" here at all.

I think you are right: Understanding and making use of the principle
at work (evolution) is more important than identifying the specific
mechanisms & organisms that made your potatoes resistant (and both
microorganisms and the genetics of the potatoes are probably at work
here);

But Larry is right too regarding the need to be aware of which
microorganisms are beneficial for pest and disease protection and so
am I regarding the need to understand the conditions under which
each one thrives.

> I was interested in growing healthy potatoes in the first place
> for my own family and that has been successful but to get rich out
> of potato blight it is necessary to come up with specific names so
> that patents can be secured. That I will gladly leave to someone
> else for I can see a few other priorities in my life.

One).- No one can (or should) patent natural biological processes (or
for that matter, living organisms - and that is exactly why those
whose chief concern is personal rather than public's benefit shifted
their efforts to GM crops - so they can patent them; disregarding
their effects on the environment, public health and non-GM farmers).

Two).- My chief concern is simply: Change the basis of the nation's
dominant agricultural production system and therefore, the way
agriculture in general is practiced.

In order to accomplish that goal, we need to develop a standards
based approach. Your faith was generated &/or reinforced by your
understanding of the biological principals that in turn,
demonstrated the validity of that faith and approach.

Where I am, few farmers share your knowledge so we have our work cut
out for us when organizing evaluation and demonstration projects.
Most importantly, resources for sustainable rural development
projects of this type depend on our being able to present principles
backed by data derived from replicable experiments carried out by
accredited universities and research institutions somewhere in the
world.

Based on those historical events, we can obtain financing from
sources that provide a results dependant pay back scheme (IOW, the
risks are shared). Obviously, solutions that generate positive
results in one place and time may not be applicable to another, but
a knowledge base that helps our understanding of those differences
and permits us to foresee prepare for pests, disease and
deficiencies and will develop with time.

As you can see, this is not a trivial goal and frankly, I am
somewhat disappointed in the lack of response from those involved in
the academic and governmental research loop.

I am also unaware if my principal post appeared on sanet (if it was,
I never received it - Lawrence got a copy off-list - and even the
self bcc didn't come back - it may be my ISP or gmx).

> Wishing you every success though,
> John 

Thanks John. As always, your valuable and relevant input is highly
appreciated.

Douglas

P.S.
I'm sure you agree that the meaning of "getting rich" depends on
one's health, values, family and contribution to (and role in)
society.

---

From: sals <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 18:04:39 -0700

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John D'hondt" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 4:31 PM
Subject: Re: BBC NEWS | UK | England | Tyne/Wear | Researchers hail organic 
potatoes
.

> biologist but I have so far not had too much interest in species specific 
> relationships in soil. We know there are at least 25.000 (maybe 40.000) 
> different species of micro organism in an average spoonful of soil. The 
> number of possible relationships between all these organisms is a bit too 
> complex for my purpose (which was growing potatoes organically in Ireland 
> without having problems with blight).
>
> My reasoning was that there was probably some organism in all that lot 
> that would live on Phytophtora infestans (blight) and that would thus 
> protect potato crops from this disease if only it were plentiful enough.
> To get it plentiful I grew blight prone potato varieties and let the 
> diseased plant-parts rot in situ then planted more potatoes on top that I 
> left in the ground over the wettest winter imaginable.
I like the reasoning so far yet need to hear just a little more .  after you 
planted more potatoes on top  what is the rest of the story?  the punch line 
,like u use the soil from that or the seed potatoes or what .  I would like 
to hear what happen to get u to planting success.  so what ever was causing 
the blight was really there in the earth and you feel that what lives on 
that blight must also be there whatever it is called.  that sounds sound . I 
can understand that i have seen in a lot of cases here that the benifical 
does not show up till there is lots of the plage here  for them to work on. 
then what did U do.      i know if you make compost tea out of the bad stuff 
you get more bad stuff.  garbage in garbage out so im interested in just how 
u did not just grow the blight but instead and how did what u did turn it 
around.  I would like to hear a little more.????.

thanks

---

From: John D'hondt <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 00:31:43 +0100

> While we're at it we might as well put together a complete list of all 
> soil-dwelling
> growth promoting, disease preventing, nitrogen-fixing, soil health and 
> biodiversity-building microorganisms,
> invertebrates and other organisms. Elaine has a list of 7 of the most 
> important.
> We could use them as primary categories to build on.
>
> LL

I am probably a great disappointment to others in my profession of biologist 
but I have so far not had too much interest in species specific 
relationships in soil. We know there are at least 25.000 (maybe 40.000) 
different species of micro organism in an average spoonful of soil. The 
number of possible relationships between all these organisms is a bit too 
complex for my purpose (which was growing potatoes organically in Ireland 
without having problems with blight).

My reasoning was that there was probably some organism in all that lot that 
would live on Phytophtora infestans (blight) and that would thus protect 
potato crops from this disease if only it were plentiful enough.
To get it plentiful I grew blight prone potato varieties and let the 
diseased plant-parts rot in situ then planted more potatoes on top that I 
left in the ground over the wettest winter imaginable.

As I explained before on this list (it is slightly more complex than the 
very shortened story here) I have been able to grow potatoes absolutely 
blight free for at least 15 years now. Whether my guardian angel organism is 
Pisolithus tinctorius I doubt because we don't have "dog-turd-mushrooms" 
here at all.

I was interested in growing healthy potatoes in the first place for my own 
family and that has been successful but to get rich out of potato blight it 
is necessary to come up with specific names so that patents can be secured. 
That I will gladly leave to someone else for I can see a few other 
priorities in my life.

---

From: sals <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 18:20:07 -0700

I always felt that if I took the dirt from under a real healthy tree and 
aerated it with pure water some food like  organic molasses that the life in 
that soil that was so good would grow and grow and in 24 hours it would  be 
a good compost tea to spray on ground and put out in drip and even spray on 
the trees.  because my ground has been organic many years and I use nothing 
but water I don't think I could find better earth full of life anywhere. 
like under the banana trees is so good.  I think that would be a good place 
to start. for the bacteria type soil because it is a grass and under the 
trees for fungus type soil depending on what I want to plant would work.  . 
IMHO If I were to plant a lemon tree it may be wise to put some dirt from a 
healthy lemon tree in that hole.  could it be that easy??   what do you all 
think of that idea.  names there are so many like Eendomycorrhizae-Glomus 
intraradicas or G mosseae,G aggregatum  etc. or   Ectomycorrihizae  like 
Rhizopogon villosiullus R luteolus etc.  don't mean nothing to me.  I don't 
know if these make a tea. along with Pisolitus i think they need to touch 
the roots to infect them .  I think spores if you can not get the living tea 
may be a good start but i really feel if that tree is growing real good  and 
i don't use any fertilizers here at all than it must have the right life in 
that soil to be doing so good.  .  if I multiply that in a tea and put it 
out that  would make a good tea.  ideas will that work?
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 2:59 PM
Subject: Re: BBC NEWS | UK | England | Tyne/Wear | Researchers hail organic 
potatoes

> Douglas Hinds wrote
>
>> If you want to continue this here or on seranet, let me know.
>
> Here.
>
> -- 
> Lawrence F. London, Jr.
> Venaura Farm
> [email-masked]
> http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com/
> http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/market-farming
>

---

From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 17:59:34 -0400

Here.

While we're at it we might as well put together a complete list of all soil-dwelling
growth promoting, disease preventing, nitrogen-fixing, soil health and biodiversity-building microorganisms,
invertebrates and other organisms. Elaine has a list of 7 of the most important.
We could use them as primary categories to build on.

LL