Msg#: 1 9-01-91 10:05am Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Progress/Mini-Vacation Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Friends.....In way of an update I wanted to let you know that HOMEPOWR is now available from David James who graciously agreed to carry it at the western star (the pacific end of our echo-distribution national backbone network). It may make it a lot easier for folks in southern CA and the Northwest to get, plus it's perfect timing since we hope to get confirmation to put HOMEPOWR on the full backbone momentarily. We are getting there folks! I've been a bit quiet here for the past few days. Have had a ton of work to do getting things ready for a project at the lab, getting a couple computers built for customers, clearing my shop to make room to screen-print some t-shirts and doing some research on a tracking concentrating solar-thermal array I'll be building shortly. I also received the information I've been awaiting anxiously on Tesla's boundary layer turbine which also distracted me (with this in hand we should have a working prototype before the end of September). Today I'm off to an air show (primarily to meet some local steam power enthusiasts who always have a demo there) and tonight it's off to Calistoga to watch the "Outlaws" at a sprint car race (yeah, they do burn energy but at least they get it from alcohol!). The fun never stops around Camp Chaos....We'll get the Hydrogen car info someone reminded me of and another article or two entered tomorrow....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 2 9-01-91 11:27pm Area: Home Power From: Gale Barrows To: Terry Olsen Re: wind generator Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Actualy, the gearing up of the windmill speed to operate an alternator would not be very difficult. Just a matter of arrainging the right v-belt pulleys, chaindrive sprockets, gears, or whatever you desire to use. The part I am having trouble with (theoreticaly any how) is the propeller blades themselves. It seems the blades and hub, especialy if a governor is used, would be the hard part to design and build. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 3 9-01-91 11:34pm Area: Home Power From: Gale Barrows To: Rich Jensen Re: army surplus Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Actualy, Army or other government surplus generators are fairly common. There are several equipment dealers who regularly deal in equipment of this type. Although 500kw would be a *big* unit, they do exist. Most commonly they are seen at carnivals where they are used to power the Feris wheels and other rides as well as concession stands. I recently goofed and passed up bidding on a 35kw generator at a surplus auction. The thing was in quite good condition and worked well the selling price was $350, considerably les than the price of a 4kw at K-Mart !!! --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 4 9-02-91 12:41am Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Gale Barrows Re: wind generator Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Original Message Date: 01 Sep 91 23:27:33 > From: Gale Barrows > To: Terry Olsen > gears, or whatever you desire to use. The part I am having > trouble with (theoreticaly any how) is the propeller blades > themselves. It seems the blades and hub, especialy if a > governor is used, would be the hard part to design and build. > Most of the small (1KW) wind power generators I've seen are designed such that the whole prop/alternator/tail-vane assembly tilt back in high wind to avoid overspeeding. Makes good sense; the prop being perpendicular to the force of wind is most efficient. If you tilt it back the prop presents less frontal area to the wind hence there's power transfered to it. It would be a simple homebrew wind system feature to make (after you find the right springs - better too light than the inverse) with the plus that by pulling on an attached rope you could lock it back when expecting a big blow. DCK P.S.-As for making blades that looks like quite a chore. I can add that I see the leading edges on most have a metal sheath, they are almost always wood, they are very carefully balanced (they assume you don't want to change bearings one a month) and use some form of epoxy sealer/paint on the blades which are white to avoid soaking up thermal solar energy which would weaken them quicker. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 5 9-02-91 09:08am Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Jim Dunmyer Re: M.E.N. generator Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Original Message Date: 30 Aug 91 09:42:51 > From: Jim Dunmyer > To: Gale Barrows > > Whatever happened to MEN? My wife and I started reading it > soon after it started publication, bought all the back > issues, even signed up for "life membership". Soon after > that, it ceased arriving, and I don't even remember seeing a > notice that it was going defunct (or whatever it did). There > were some really good articles in the earlier issues on > alternate energy including methane generators, wood/gas > conversion, various kinds of heating systems, solar and > water-power setups, etc. It went in a direction of less > interest to me, then disappeared. Good stuff while it > lasted, though. > I'd be willing to bet that 99% of us using this echo were either strongly influenced by TMEN or were at least avid readers. I mourned the loss of the "old" TMEN when the "Rodale-ization" and "Yupification" took hold. I heard that it was no longer being published and then, a few days ago, saw it on the newsstand again. I recently became aware (I'm a little slow at times...) of a new magazine called "Backwoods Home" published by some of the original TMEN folks. It feels a lot more like the original TMEN than the slick new incarnation bearing that name. Some excellent articles and info were in the issue I picked up too. To quote their advert: Published every two months, we're a 100 page "packed" how-to resource. Articles include: locating country property, building a home, making a living, alternative energy, gardening, food storage, raising animals, wildlife, homeschooling, natural health tips, emergency preparedness, country crafts and profiles of people who made sucessful transitions from the rat-race to the country. Recipes, product reviews, magazine and book reviews in every issue. The magazine for people that value their independance. Subscriptions: $17.95/yr ($25 Canadian) Address: Backwoods Home, POB 2630, Ventura CA 93002 --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 6 9-02-91 09:37am Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Joel Kerr Re: Elementry Solar Projects Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Thanks for the ideas Joel. I'm going to *try* to keep the 4-H projects for the kids as simple and inexpensive as possible, making everything from easily and locally available "stuff". I need a couple projects the kids (ages 10-17) can build to take home and a couple we'll work on as a team. So far I plan for us to make some reflecting solar cookers, a wind powered generator (using a bicycle lighting generator), a water powered generator (either pelton or francis type) using a garden hose for demo purposes, a Photovoltaic array from individual cells, and a solar thermal hot-air collector. Most of the stuff will be small-scale working models of the real thing. We also will be discussing efficency, conservation and basic electrical theory. I hope to be able to take them on a couple short field trips in the area to look at a solar powered home, ride in an electric car and visit Real Goods solar powered showroom. This ought to be fun and educational for both the kids and myself (I still haven't decided what I want to be when I grow up....)(grin) DCK, Moderator HOMEPOWR --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 7 9-02-91 10:10am Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: aLL Re: Hydrogen Car Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ The hydrogen producing/powered car at SEER '91 in Willits last month was based on a new design by Dr. Roger Billings, president of the American Academy of Science. It is based on a hydrogen fuel cell which transforms Hydrogen and air into electricity with a byproduct of water vapor. There is no air pollution, moving parts or noise and it doesn't wear out. The electricity drives a motor and hence the car down the road. In a normal gas powered car less than 25% of the latent energy in the fuel moves the vehicle-the rest goes out the tailpipe. Basically electricity from some source is used to power an electrolyzer which seperates water into hydrogen and oxygen. The oxygen is released and the hydrogen is stored in safe powdered metal hydride form. Hydride is a powdered metal which absorbs hydrogen much like a sponge stores water. The hydrogen is drawn from the hydride as needed and fed to the fuel cell where in combination with oxygen from the air it generates electricity to run the vehicle at about 60% efficency. The prototype I saw, called "LaserCel 1" was very impressive from a engineering standpoint and was beautifully done. Whoever built it really did a tremendous job; it was one of the nicest fabrication jobs I've ever seen. I wish I had more info for you (or an address to write to) but if you can dig up the address for the AAS and write Dr. Billings I'm sure you'll get the info you want. Electrolyzers are on the market now (and not that expensive either) as are the fuel cells (which I think are). I hope to learn more about this technology and will pass it on when I do.......DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 8 9-02-91 1:12pm Area: Home Power From: Terry Olsen To: Gale Barrows Re: wind generator Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ GB>Actualy, the gearing up of the windmill speed to operate an GB>alternator would not be very difficult. Just a matter of GB>arrainging the right v-belt pulleys, chaindrive sprockets, GB>gears, or whatever you desire to use. The part I am having GB>trouble with (theoreticaly any how) is the propeller blades GB>themselves. It seems the blades and hub, especialy if a GB>governor is used, would be the hard part to design and build. That's my understanding too. This is probably nothing you don't know already. My references are public books, nothing esoteric. It sounds to me as if you are looking toward a horizontal axis machine, 3-5 blades for low solidity and higher shaft speed. Is that right? If so what you have stated may be the main design consideration. The strength and shape of the blades is critical for efficiency and one certainly doesn't want to lose a blade...into who knows what in higher winds!? Is this what you mean? After A LOT of reading I thought why not make a bigger less efficient machine? Why not use sailcloth as the main blade constituant? The University of Princeton did some work on sailcloth as a blade material and has or had a kit for sale using sailcloth. It sounded good, less efficient but safer. The sailcloth streches in higher winds, dumping much of the wind energy. This isn't saying one shouldn't include a governer. There is the shot at it that properly designed and implemented, the escess wind would dump, so the governer is integral to the blade design. I like this idea! A stiff rod is used for the leading edge, pipe or TV antenna mast, or conduit. The trialing edge is cable and the blade is covered with sailcloth. There was a guy who built such a machine and in the stiffest storms, with frozen blades, it didn't overrev. --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 9 9-03-91 09:41am Area: Home Power From: Jim Bianchi To: Gale Barrows Re: wind generator Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Gale. Re: obtaining proper prop blades and hubs, mayhaps inquiries around a civil aviation airport might turn up a source of used aircraft props. Seems to me that, esp with a variable pitch arrrangement, these would be ideal, if the price was right. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 10 9-03-91 9:40pm Area: Home Power From: Billy Cash To: Tom Keller Re: Battle of the Currents Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > 50 lbs. of plutonium, should the spacecraft burn > up in the atmosphere, would (not *COULD*, not *MIGHT*, but > ***WOULD***!) significantly contaminate an incredibly large > geographical area with radioactive, toxic plutonium oxides in > a very finely divided particulate form. Carl Sagan wrote about this in USA Today. He said that there was a chance in one hundred million that the thing would leak ANY plutonium at all. Are you aware how much radioactive material was released during Nagasaki and Hiroshima? > The safety record of the space program is not anywhere > **NEAR** good enough to cause any rationaly being to assume > that such an accident is unlikely. Such an accident is very unlikely. Galileo had more armor than plutonium. The danger of mishap was lower than the danger of an accident in a car or a plane. > To denigrate concerned individuals for expressing > perfectly reasonable concerns is fascistic, irresponsible and > highly inflammatory. However, if those concerns are not reasonable, then the rest of the statement doesn't apply. > There is room for disagreement on these issues, but it is > unneccessary and counter-productive to reduce the disagreement > to the personal, ad hominem level. "Irresponsible" and "fascistic" are very personal. >>>W>F>C>3> --- * Origin: Programmer's Connection BBS - Columbus - 614/875-2286 (1:226/70) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 11 9-03-91 9:42pm Area: Home Power From: Billy Cash To: Terry Olsen Re: Battle of the Currents Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > BC>Nuclear energy is useful when we need lots of energy right > BC>away, and we haven't spend the past 10,000 years dripping > BC>solar energy into a battery. We need both technologies, > BC>nuclear and solar, not one-or-the-other. > BC> * Origin: Programmer's Connection BBS - Columbus - > Is it Columbus Ohio? Nice! Yeah, it is. We're the only Columbus that you can just say "Columbus" and people know what you mean, I've found. Beautiful town. > And I surely agree..both technologies (and more) are needed! > What gave you the idea I was against one or the other? > Was it something I wrote here? Maybe it was a response I made > toward nuclear being useful....as opposed to all of use using > nothing but solar energy via roof panels? I can't remember, Terry. I think it was the space shuttle argument. >>>W>F>C>3> --- * Origin: Programmer's Connection BBS - Columbus - 614/875-2286 (1:226/70) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 12 9-03-91 9:45pm Area: Home Power From: Billy Cash To: Scott Parks Re: Battle of the Currents Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR >>Nuclear energy is useful when we need lots of energy right >>away, and we haven't spend the past 10,000 years dripping solar >>energy into a battery. We need both technologies, nuclear and >>solar, not one-or-the-other. > I would say, rather than "have to" use both .... we should > re-evaluate our priorities and lessen our needs. > You may say ... "a long way off" .... I say soon! Why should we lessen our needs? We have all the plentiful power we need. Some of our sources are not renewable, but I think we should put more energy into developing better energy. >>>W>F>C>3> --- * Origin: Programmer's Connection BBS - Columbus - 614/875-2286 (1:226/70) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 132/123 151/1000 226/70 330 SEEN-BY: 226/430 282/95 327/999 374/17 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 13 9-03-91 9:56pm Area: Home Power From: Billy Cash To: Rich Jensen Re: Turbines Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > He plans to produce: approximately 839,000 kW per year. > Doesn't this seem to be kind of a low power output estimate? > It seems he has underestimated by about 1/2 the output... You mean he should have said 1,600,000 kW, or sixteen hundred megawatts? Isn't that a rather high power estimate? Or do you mean 1,600 kW, or 1.6 megawatts? >>>W>F>C>3> --- * Origin: Programmer's Connection BBS - Columbus - 614/875-2286 (1:226/70) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 14 9-03-91 9:03pm Area: Home Power From: Rich Jensen To: Don Kulha Re: Hydro Power Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In a message to Rich Jensen <08-28-91 19:13> Don Kulha wrote: DK> > Have you ever run across any good literature on building DK> > your own turbine at home? DK> elevated drum as a water supply. One of the first tests we DK> had planned for the turbine I'm working on is the ultra DK> scientific garden hose supply test. If it actually works What kind of a turbine are you building... a Tesla? I have been watching some of the posts about that one, it seems fairly simple and straight forward. BTW, would you know the effiency of a Tesla turbine? (I realize that may depend upon who builds it... but, in general). And, would a Tesla turbine work with a low head hydro type setup, or does it only begin to become efficient at very high input pressures/volumes? The simplicity of the components is a real plus! Thanks, Rich --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 15 9-03-91 1:42pm Area: Home Power From: Michael Favor To: Don Kulha Re: Progress/Mini-Vacation Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > solar-thermal array I'll be building shortly. I also received > the information I've been awaiting anxiously on Tesla's > boundary layer turbine which also distracted me (with > this in hand we should have a working prototype before > the end of September). don, i am extremely interested in any references you can provide on the telsa turbine. i don't remember exactly which post, but something you said made me think you have ready access to a university engineering dept. complete with friendly engineering-type people and high-tech equipment: is that correct? once you fashion a working proto-type, does the information you just got seem to indicate the i might be able to have a copy of the prototype made by a local machine shop, or do you have any suggestions about how i might obtain one? of course, i am also interested in your tracking solar concentrator design, but that seems like the simpler part of the puzzle, and i already have some pretty useful information about one design, which i would be happy to share. thanks for your inspiration so far. warmly, michael. --- Opus-CBCS 1.71 * Origin: Humanity Net BBS, Chico CA, 916-891-1920 (1:119/4.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 16 9-04-91 07:33am Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Rich Jensen Re: Hydro Power Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Original Message Date: 03 Sep 91 21:03:00 > From: Rich Jensen > To: Don Kulha > > What kind of a turbine are you building... a Tesla? > I have been watching some of the posts about that one, it > seems fairly simple and straight forward. BTW, would you > know the effiency of a Tesla turbine? (I realize that may > depend upon who builds it... but, in general). > And, would a Tesla turbine work with a low head hydro type > setup, or does it only begin to become efficient at very > high input pressures/volumes? The simplicity of the > components is a real plus! > Yes....it is based on the Tesla design. The efficency is an unknown though many folks claim them to be the most efficient turbines. The only numbers I could quote relate their efficency as about 60% with steam and claimed this was 50% higher than the turbines usually used with this medium. The "data" is highly suspect. I don't know if it will work with low heat/ low pressure/ high-volume water flow but should have some idea in a month or so. We'll have to measure the output power and then measure the input flow rate and pressure (from our garden hose) to try and get an idea of it's efficency. My real interest is in steam/power production via solar energy as regards this....We'll just have to see....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 17 9-04-91 07:48am Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Michael Favor Re: Turbine Fabrication Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Original Message Date: 03 Sep 91 13:42:51 > From: Michael Favor > To: Don Kulha > > don, i am extremely interested in any references you can > provide on the telsa turbine. i don't remember exactly > which post, but something you said made me think you have > ready access to a university engineering dept. complete with > friendly engineering-type people and high-tech equipment: is > that correct? once you fashion a working proto-type, does > the information you just got seem to indicate the i might be > able to have a copy of the prototype made by a local machine > shop, or do you have any suggestions about how i might > obtain one? > Close....I work for a firm that has lots of engineering talent, several machine shops, and extensive research facilities. It is an unoffical project so we have to do the work on our own time. Perhaps after/if it can be demostrated that the concept (solar thermal generated steam fed turbine) some corporate support *might* be in the offing. Our company's specialty is the application of thin-film coatings. I will make the blueprints available to any interested partys if it isn't a total flop. As far as availability of the turbine goes I'm sure a machine shop local to you could fabricate one. Many of the optimum design criteria are unknowns at this point but we're trying to figure it out. We decided to just barge ahead and build a working model so we could play with different configurations to try and determine how to optimize the design. I'm not getting too many people involved at the lab for a number of reasons...partially in case we fail miserably (called "damage control"...grin). > of course, i am also interested in your tracking solar > concentrator design, but that seems like the simpler part of > the puzzle, and i already have some pretty useful > information about one design, which i would be happy to > share. thanks for your inspiration so far. > Actually I'm sweating the collector/steam-generation design more than the turbine. Would appreciate any input you would care to share. Since a lot of this is theoretical and the viability hasn't been proven (though the simple numbers on paper are promising) I want to limit this discussion as regards this echo for a bit. Well, it's not that I *want* to but it seems prudent. If you want to photocopy any of the info to send this way my mailing address is: Don Kulha, POB 7518, Santa Rosa CA 95407 P.S.-...And if this works you can be assured of an invite to see a semi-public demo of the power system along with other interested parties. Relatively speaking you're fairly close by.... --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 18 9-04-91 10:40am Area: Home Power From: Tom Keller To: Billy Cash Re: Battle of the Currents Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Kindly tell the family and friends of the crew of the CHallenger that such an accident is highly unlikely. Kindly tell the family and friends of the Apollo crew that was burnt alive that such an accident was highly unlikely. The fact is that due to cost-cutting measures and political haymaking, the safety of our space program is woefully bad, and such accidents are *MUCH* more likely than the theoretical calculations would suggest. Given the number of space missions launched, and the number of fatal accidents already on the books, would you care to re-calculate the odds based on pragmatic experience, rather than over optomistic theories? You are quite right, "fascistic" *IS* highly personal. Since you felt it necessary to denigrate realistic, concerned individuals for expressing honest, reasonable (based on FACTS, not THEORIES) concerns, I felt no compunction about pointing out to you how offensive you were being. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 19 9-04-91 10:45am Area: Home Power From: Tom Keller To: Rich Jensen Re: Hydro Power Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Don, or someone else who actually has the books on the Tesla Turbine may be able to be more specific (and more accurate), but I don't believe that the Tesla Turbine will work effectively as a hydro-turbing. As I understand it, the Boundary Layer principal upon which it is based requires that the pressurized medium be expanding. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 20 9-04-91 10:47am Area: Home Power From: Tom Keller To: Michael Favor Re: Progress/Mini-Vacation Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Michael, Actually, Don has access to friendly, helpful engineering types at his place of employment, Optical Coating Labs, Inc. Probably a more diverse and better qualified source of engineering talent for this sort of endeavour in any case. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 21 9-04-91 6:26pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Tom Keller Re: Hydro Power Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Don, or someone else who actually has the books on the > Tesla Turbine may be able to be more specific (and more > accurate), but I don't believe that the Tesla Turbine will > work effectively as a hydro-turbing. As I understand it, > the Boundary Layer principal upon which it is based requires > that the pressurized medium be expanding. > Tesla felt that the turbine should work well with any fluid; air, steam, water, oil. He also patented it as a pump. The folks in San Bernadino who manufacture pumps of this design have had fantastic success with them as pumps. I don't know how well it will work as a water turbine but if they make great pumps (...rumored but to be seen...) they might make a good water turbine too. We'll let you know when we test it.....DCK P.S.-For making power with it Tom's right....nothing would beat steam. They are claimed to be great geothermal generators.....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 22 9-05-91 7:07pm Area: Home Power From: Greg Hassen To: all Re: theftproof pv mounts Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ does anybody know if there is a theftproof photovoltaic mounts or tracker. I have a cabin in a area where theft is a constant problem Other than putting them on top of a 50' telephone pole I haven't any ideas. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 23 9-05-91 10:09pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Greg Hassen Re: theftproof pv mounts Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Great question....I have seen some sort of unique fastener systems offered to do that but the source escapes me now....I think they were called "security fasteners". Unfortunatly, dependant on just how remote your cabin is, a persistant thief could probably steal anything even if it meant sawing out a section of your roof if they were mounted to that. I don't mean to discourage you. There must be an answer and I'm sure it's out there. One other consideration I almost hate to mention but must is that if the slime ball realizes they are not going to be sucessful they often destroy things. I've had that happen several times. Some variation on your pole idea might be the hot set-up. What we need here is for Siemens or Texas Instruments or someone to make some photovoltaic roof tiles. I've been thinking about the same question for a while. I haven't been able to buy some rural property yet but will face the same dilema. My thinking has gravitated towards a concrete and rebar "block house" of sorts, with a sturdy metal door, single faceted south sloping roof and steel shutters to cover the PV's when we're absent. It could hold and protect your batterys, inverter, generator, etc., and have a small "maintaner" (10W) sized panel on top just to keep the batterys topped up. With a small panel and a set of hydrocaps it should be able to a long time between battery waterings. It's really a shame we have to deal with the slezoid factor in planning our systems but from what I hear PV's are becoming a favorite target for theives. Perhaps the folks at Zomeworks or other companys that make PV trackers and mounts will have some ideas for you. DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 24 9-05-91 10:37pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: AE Careers 1 of 2 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Careers in Photovoltaics Start with Training by the Solar Program Staff of Colorado Mountain College Job placement in the solar energy field, particularly in photovoltaics, has become more like "job selection" for graduates of the Colorado Mountain College Solar Program. In fact this year, the 1987-88 school year, there are more job opportunities than students. CMC Solar Program graduates have the luxury of "selecting" which solar option to pursue. And work in the photovoltaics field is leading the charge. One CMC Solar graduate recently was hired as an assistant manager in a national photovoltaic company's regional office in Denver. Three other CMC Solar graduates were hired by diversified New England solar companies that are designing, installing and selling PV systems. Other CMC graduates have started their own PV businesses, including catalog sales. This job success trend in photovoltaics supports the national reputation for excellence, earned by the Colorado Mountain College Solar Program. Numerous national and international publications consistently rate the CMC Solar Program and the photovoltaics division as one of the best in the nation. Since 1981 the Colorado Mountain College Solar Program has offered a unique combination of photovoltaics skills training. The strength of the program lies in combining classroom design experience, hands on installation and on going maintenance and troubleshooting. Full time team instructors Steve McCarney, Ken Olson and Johnny Weiss have developed the PV course and co-authored a concise training manual, "Photovoltaics-- A Manual of Design and Installation for Practitioners." Facilities at the Colorado Mountain College Spring Valley Campus, located eight miles south of Glenwood Springs, Colorado, exhibit both solar heating systems and 10 working PV systems. Short and long term PV courses are offered throughout the year. Customized training also is available on request. The CMC instructors are certified state vocational educators with varied backgrounds including contracting, architecture, engineering, and adult education. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 25 9-05-91 10:37pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: AE Careers 2 of 2 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ More than 300 individuals have completed the Colorado Mountain College photovoltaics training courses. Ten design/installation courses consisting of 80 hours of training have been completed in Colorado and Alaska. As part of course work, more than 40 stand alone PV systems have been installed including generator hybrids, refrigeration, lighting, pumping and home power. Many of these installations have been in remote areas typical of today's stand alone PV market. In some cases travel to these sites has included dogsleds, snow machines, skis, llamas, backpacks and 4WD vehicles. In addition, day long workshops by the Colorado Mountain College instructors have been well received at the Renewable Energy Technologies Symposium and International Exposition (RETSIE) and the annual meeting of the American Solar Energy Society (ASES). Trainees in the Colorado Mountain College program have included licensed electricians, solar technicians, energy efficiency professionals, PV industry trainers and researchers. Groups and organizations sponsoring CMC trainees include the PV industry, Peace Corps, Department of Defense, World Health Organization, Agency for International Development, state and local governments, university and national solar energy laboratories. The Colorado Mountain College staff has worked with trainees from Canada, Mexico, Guatemala, Columbia, Argentina, Great Britain, Switzerland, Qatar, the Phillipines, Tanzania, Australia and, of course, the United States. In addition the CMC instructors have authored numerous technical papers published by the International Solar Energy Society and the American Solar Energy Society. Magazine articles on the CMC Solar program have appeared in PV International, Solar Age, Energy Report, Mother Earth News and Energy Talk. To supplement the regular school year Solar Program, Colorado Mountain College also will be offering a special two week photovoltaic training class in the summer of 1988. For Additional information on the Colorado Mountain College Solar Program and photovoltaics training, contact the CMC Solar staff at 303-945-7481, or write them at 3000 County Road 114, Glenwood Springs, CO 81601. Editor's Note: I was part of a PV seminar with Steve McCarney and Johnny Weiss at the 1987 American Solar Energy Society's annual meeting in Portland, Oregon. They have comprehensive knowledge and experience in PVs, and more importantly they can TEACH. If you are considering solar as a career the CMC is one of the best places to start. --Rich. Courtesy of and Copyright by Home Power Magazine Original publication Issue #3, April 1988 --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 26 9-05-91 10:41pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Water Heaters 1 of 3 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ The Fireside by Don & Glenda Hargrove A simple but effective test that will save you BTUs! Last issue I discussed various definitions of heat and the ways it moves around us. Heat can be moved, stored, contained, or wasted without us realizing what is happening. A case in point is the propane fired water heater. I have one, and many are in use in AE households. Do you know the BTU rating of this most important appliance? Do you know whether it actually delivers the amount of heat it is supposed to? How many of those precious BTUs are being lost through your vent pipe and heater casing? I want to tell you about a simple performance test you can run on your hot water heater to test its efficiency. You will need a thermometer that registers at least 150 F., an accurate watch, a vacuum and a good stiff wire brush. Turn the hot water heater control to the pilot position. Allow the water heater to cool, or drain the heater and let it refill with cold water. Now turn on any hot water faucet and record the temperature of the water. I started my test with a water temperature of 60¡F. Make a notation of the time, and immediately turn the hot water heater ON. When all the water in the heater reaches the temperature you have set on your thermostat, the burner will go out. Immediately make a note of the time and turn the water heater off. Take another temperature reading at the same hot water faucet you used before. Some lucky person in your household now has the luxury of an entire tank of hot water while you continue on with the dirty part of the test. Allow the burner to cool off for at least 20 minutes. Cover the burner unit completely with a plastic bag. Using the wire brush and/or sandpaper, clean all the rust and scale from the bottom of the tank. It's rather a tight fit through the small door, but perseverance will pay its rewards. Be sure to wear gloves and a long sleeved shirt. For extra safety, wear goggles. A flashlight helps a lot. After the bottom of the tank has been thoroughly cleaned, remove the vent pipe from the top of the heater. Pull any baffle inside the heater up and out of the heater. Using a wire brush taped to a handle, clean rust and scale from the tube through the heater's tank. Take a little time and clean this tube well. The result of your efforts may be an impressive pile of gunk in the bottom of the heater. Vacuum all the rust and scale from the bottom of the heater. After I cleaned mine out, I lined the area under the burner with aluminum foil. This will help reflect radiant heat onto the tank. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 27 9-05-91 10:42pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Water Heaters 2 of 3 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ By now the lucky household member has probably used up all the hot water. If not, you get to use the hot water, but only until its temperature reaches the temperature reading at the very start of the test. In my case 60¡F. Now relight the pilot, turn the heater on, and immediately note the time. Wait until the water reaches the same thermostat setting as before and the burner shuts off. Note the time and temperature of the hot water at the same faucet you have been using. If your heater needed a good cleaning, it should take less time to reheat to the thermostat setting. I was able to reduce burner operating time in my case by 12 minutes. If you don't realize any change after you have cleaned your heater, your water may have high mineral content. This will cause mineral build up inside the tank and insulates the water from the burner's heat. Replacement is the only solution for tanks coated on the inside. What does all this data we've collected mean in terms of efficiency and BTUs saved? Subtract the start temperature from the final heated temperature for both data runs, one with the dirty heater and the other clean. Subtract the time figures from each other as well for each run. We now have two sets of data about how long it took to heat the water a known number of degrees. Look on the heater and find the manufacturer's info on tank capacity in gallons and burner size in BTUs. My heater has a 40 gallon tank, and is rated to deliver 38,000 BTU per hour. 38,000 BTUs per hr. @ 60 min. per hr. = 633.33 BTUs per min. 40 gal. X 8.33 lbs. per gal. = 333.2 lbs. of water in the tank. 1 BTU = 1¡F. temperature rise in 1 lb. of water. Here is the data from my test runs: BEFORE Temperature Increase = 72 F. Heating Time = 72 minutes AFTER Temperature Increase = 72 F. Heating Time = 60 minutes It took 72 minutes to warm the water up before cleaning the heater and 60 minutes to do the same job after cleaning. Since my burner produces 633.33 BTUs per minute, its operation for 72 minutes produces 45,600 BTUs of heat (633.33 times 72). Its operation for 60 minutes produces 38,000 BTUs. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 28 9-05-91 10:42pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Water Heaters 3 of 3 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ The amount of heat it takes to raise the temperature of 333.2 lbs. of water (40 gallons- my tank size) 72 F. is 23,990 BTUs (333.2 times 72). This is the amount of usable heat I have gotten from my water heater. If we subtract the amount of heat we have put into the water from the amount of heat we produced on each test run, we can calculate heat lost and the efficiency of the heater. In my case, I lost 21,610 BTUs before the heater was cleaned (45,600 minus 23,990). After cleaning the heater I lost 14,010 BTUs. This can be calculated as efficiency. Before cleaning, efficiency of the heater was 52.6% (23,990 BTUs of heat into the water divided by 45,600 BTUs used in the burner). After cleaning, the heater is 63.1% efficient. The 7,600 BTUs of heat I saved by cleaning the heater amounts to an efficiency increase of 10.5 %. Not bad for an hours work. There are 91,500 BTUs in one gallon of propane. This means we have saved about 0.08 gallons of propane per tank full of hot water. Assuming that we use 50 tanks of hot water monthly and a local propane price of $1.20 per gallon, we save $4.98 per month. If I keep the heater clean all the time, then we save $59.76 yearly. If your fuel source is natural gas, there are 100,000 BTUs in one therm (100 cubic feet) of natural gas. Your natural gas meter reads in cubic feet. You can use the same and similar experiments to check heater efficiency. Try it after adding an insulating blanket to your water heater. Now that you've cleaned your heater and saved some BTUs for future use, use your imagination and go enjoy that full tank of hot water! Courtesy of and Copyrighted by Home Power Magazine Original publication Issue #3, April 1988 --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 29 9-04-91 6:03pm Area: Home Power From: Rich Jensen To: Billy Cash Re: Turbines Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In a message to Rich Jensen <09-03-91 21:56> Billy Cash wrote: BC> > He plans to produce: approximately 839,000 kW per year. BC> > Doesn't this seem to be kind of a low power output BC> Or do you mean 1,600 kW, or 1.6 megawatts? That is more what I had in mind... I am not sure how he arrived at that 839,000 kW figure... Unless he is only planning on running 8 hours a day. Simple calculations show his figure is off by quite a bit... With a penstock 7' in diameter, maybe he is planning on going to a larger turbine in the future, and does not want to arouse too much interest... That seems like a little overkill there too doesn't it? Rich --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 30 9-04-91 6:38pm Area: Home Power From: Rich Jensen To: Terry Olsen Re: oops Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In a message to Gale Barrows <08-29-91 13:31> Terry Olsen wrote: TO> Yeah, the things I7ve read say the same thing...step it up TO> with a belt drive or (better) a belt drive that has those TO> rubber teeth because the transfer efficiency is better..but TO> that takes a semi-cogged wheel. Well, because it has to be TO> stepped up about 15-20 times, a dual step is usually done. A possible source for belts like this might be the junkyard... Belts with notches, such as overhead camshaft timing belts? They are thin, strong, meant to transfer power without being stretched or stretching, and last a long time. I just replaced one on my wife's escort... at 75k mi., so, they my take a lot of abuse... (it was about 1/8" thick and 2" wide). I think that they only step them to a 2 to 1 ratio in a car, but you might be able to use a timing pulley on one end, and fabricate the other larger pulley. See ya, Rich --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 31 9-04-91 6:45pm Area: Home Power From: Rich Jensen To: Gale Barrows Re: wind generator Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In a message to Terry Olsen <09-01-91 23:27> Gale Barrows wrote: GB> Actualy, the gearing up of the windmill speed to operate an GB> alternator would not be very difficult. Just a matter of GB> arrainging the right v-belt pulleys, chaindrive sprockets, GB> gears, or whatever you desire to use. The part I am having GB> trouble with (theoreticaly any how) is the propeller blades GB> themselves. It seems the blades and hub, especialy if a GB> governor is used, would be the hard part to design and GB> build. Has anyone ever done any research where a hydralic pump is mounted to the prop shaft? I know this may introduce other problems, and even some loss between the transfer of energy barrier, but it might make storing gusts possible, and constant output through a hydralic motor from a pressure storage tank... Just an idea, Rich --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 32 9-04-91 11:26am Area: Home Power From: Terry Olsen To: Billy Cash Re: Battle of the Currents Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ BC>I can't remember, Terry. I think it was the space shuttle BC>argument. BC> BC>>>>W>F>C>3> Whatever, my projects are less technical... Ohio is nice, but the West Coast has some hills..I hope to instalal a RAM pump at a small spring and bring costless water to my garden. I'd agree with most of what you've been saying. --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 33 9-05-91 10:47am Area: Home Power From: Terry Olsen To: Billy Cash Re: Battle of the Currents Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ BC> > 50 lbs. of plutonium, should the spacecraft burn BC> BC>Carl Sagan wrote about this in USA Today. He said that there BC>was a chance in one hundred million that the thing would leak BC>ANY plutonium at all. BC> BC>"Irresponsible" and "fascistic" are very personal. I agree with you, BC. We shouldn't let the almost impossible and highly improbably event of accident stop us from exploring space and our understanding and use of space and our solor system is important to us in many ways. Actually, the limitiations we have placed on ourselves regarding nucle energy verges on insane. Potentially, such energy would clean our air (no more coal) and be advantageous in several ways. Today, nuclear power plants have been designed on paper to be much safer! Besides which we don't need to build then in population centers anyway. Let's take resonable precautions and build them...freeing ourselves from lots of polutions and freeing ourselves from SOME of our international dependance! --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 34 9-06-91 07:52am Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Rich Jensen Re: Gilmer Drive Belts Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I'm looking at needing to do a 15:1 speed reduction and am also looking at cogged power transmission belts, sometimes refered to as Gilmer drive belts. Many companies manufacture these including Gates and Goodyear and the pulleys are widely available also. For a high step-up or reduction an intermediate step may be in order. I haven't finalized an approach for my application yet (many other more important things to do at this stage) but I'm considering a 3:1 gear reduction couple to a 5:1 reduction using belts. For Gale's application he doesn't have to have a totally non-slip interface and he's not tryingto transmit that much power so standard V-belting may suffice. He might want to use multiple belts with either approach to add a safety factor. He should be able to find engineering data at the library on them and also info on the relative power transmission efficencys of different systems (various gear configurations, v belts, gilmer belts, chain drives, etc.). I believe that roller chains are the most efficent/least power consuming. He also may not need to use such a high ratio coupling. A friend at the lab is working on building a 2kW wind generator and is basing his on an alternator from a diesel application designed for maximum power at 800 rpm. I'll ask him for more details and pass them on. DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 35 9-06-91 6:36pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Debate/Atomic energy... Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Alright already.....Enough! One of the duties of the moderator is to moderate things. I have purposely NOT posted any rules or tried to limit discussion in this forum in any way to date. You folks don't want to actually make me work do ya? The topic of this conference is Alternative Energy and Personal power production. I don't see the need to get into the relative merits or problems with nuclear energy here. It doesn't fit into either of the headings above. I would also like to see debate kept to a minimum here, particularly if it starts getting personal. Oh you can debate technical stuff, such as the merits of savonius rotors vs. propellors for wind machines if you like but lets stick to the technical stuff okay? Unlike many of the FidoNet echos we've been able to avoid much of the B.S. so far and I'd like to keep it that way. Your moderator wants to keep this fun and informative and not have to play God or post the "rules" (which I hope to avoid having to figure out) every 25 messages or so. Please..... Don Kulha, Moderator HOMEPOWR --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 36 9-07-91 10:19am Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Solar 500 1 of 9 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ COVER STORY (c) 1991 Easy Reader Newspaper Sun Worship on Ampere Alley by Wendy Raebeck There's a calm here at Phoenix International Raceway's one- mile oval track not usually associated with auto racing. Yet the races about to take place may be more important to Los Angeles than a Grand Prix. Here the excitement doesn't come from what you'd call a racing atmosphere. Few out here in the pits (are these pits, where's the grease?) are traditional race car owners, drivers or mechanics. The smudged jumpsuit set is noticeably absent. In their place are teams of three to 15 men and women in clean T-shirts and shorts hovering over their machines. Gasoline Alley has turned into Ampere Avenue. There are 22 vehicles in this long, open-air garage and no noise, no fumes, no smoke, no oil. No shouting over engines; no engines in fact. Electric motors only, and they're silent. On the track these vehicles glide like light, dragonfly creatures of pink, blue and white. This is the Inaugural Solar and Electric 500, the first closed circuit track race of solar and electric vehicles. Today, Friday, is for demonstration and display. Later this afternoon, 7,000 local children will arrive for "Education Day" to look at the future. After test driving one of the electrics, in fact, driving one's regular gasoline car again later will feel like the past. Noxious and dirty, too, like smoking a cigarette again long after quitting. The first electric auto was built in 1838. Until the early 1900s there were more battery-powered cars on the road than petrol-driven. The first (North) American electric appeared in 1904, and by 1910 the range had already been extended to 75 miles, running at 25 mph. Today 50,000 electric cars cruise U.S. by-ways. But who would know it? In the garage, owners, drivers, electrical engineers and solar technicians are chatting away. Facts are flying in here. For the outsider it's a maze of terminology. For the insider it's heaven. The solar fleet is sunbathing outside now, charging up for the 300-kilometer race--93 mile-long laps Saturday, and another 93 Sunday. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 37 9-07-91 10:19am Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Solar 500 2 of 9 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Twenty-two vehicles will compete in the weekend races. Nine solar entries, 13 electric--two of the 11 electric teams are entering two vehicles. The Electric 200 is Sunday, followed by the second half of the Solar 300. "You will be allowed to work on your vehicles till 6 p.m.," Ward Phillips, the solar race official, announces at the solar drivers' meeting. "Structural and safety work only. No charging of batteries allowed. After 6 p.m. you will have no access to vehicles until tomorrow's race. Today we had a little snafu because one of the regular Phoenix track officials here, accustomed to gasoline engine rules, requested that the fastest three qualifying vehicles stay at the finish line after practice. "The others came straight back to the garage and covered up as they'd been instructed. In solar racing any extra time in the sun can mean additional lap capabilities. So we had to catch that one real quick, and get those three back in here. But we're all learning." How each team chooses to spend its stockpile of stored sunbeams is the key to race strategy. Endurance counts over speed, but knowing the total performance capacity of your ride is the real thing. The highest average speed throughout the 93 laps decides the winner. But to cross the finish line--slow or fast, first or last--is the first requirement. Aside from the booty (even last place will get $700, and first will take $20,000), sportsmanship and success of new methodology surpass individual ambition. Competition actually seems secondary here to the exchange of information and techniques. Some racers here are actually unaware of the prize money. Experimentation is a unanimous theme, with tools and ideas passing freely up and down the garage. Events and commentary throughout the weekend made it clear that California is leading the nation, and perhaps the world, in electric/solar vehicle technology. The reason is clear-- California and Los Angeles are providing incentives. The state has mandated that 2 percent of all new vehicles sold here must be zero-emission by 1998 and 10 percent by 2003. With the current state of solar technology most experts say this means electric cars. The Southern California Air Quality Management District is seeking to limit the use of hydrocarbon fuels even more by the year 2000. Other states and metro areas, including New York, are slated to follow California's lead in zero-emission legislation, meaning individual auto manufacturers will be barred from selling (any) vehicles in some major markets unless they also offer a zero-emission vehicle by the late 1990's. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 38 9-07-91 10:20am Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Solar 500 3 of 9 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Also, the City of Los Angeles (through Councilman Marvin Braude's office primarily) spurred the industry on two years ago by requesting proposals from various auto manufacturers on how they would provide electric cars for this metropolis. Los Angeles didn't commit to buying anything in the end, but agreed to help line up EV buyers. "For once the governments--local, state and federal--are anxious to have electric cars in the hands of the public," said Howard Wilson, a General Motors consultant, Los Angeles resident and educated spectator at the Phoenix 500. "Further incentive for EVs would include allowing them in the diamond (car pool) lane. A gasoline tax would make a huge difference too. The destruction of the U.S. auto industry is directly traceable to there not being a high gasoline tax." Wilson identified high gas prices in Europe and Japan as the chief motivation for the foreign design of the fuel-efficient autos that have challenged the great American gas guzzler. Surprisingly though, Wilson reports, Honda has set the late date of 1998 for release of its electric car. "They're a little slow at this," he says. Right now the U.S. seems to be in an excellent position to command the global transition from gas to electric vehicles. Wilson, at one time the vice president in charge of technology transfer between the Hughes Corp. and GM, said that GM is trying to get its first electric car, the Impact, into production as soon as possible. The manufacturing of the Impact is going to take a massive effort, Wilson says. "We built the first car in a year. We didn't have to worry about the manufacturing aspect. But if you intend to sell a car to the public, at an affordable price--let's say less than $20,000--then you've got to make them in some reasonable quantity," Wilson says. "It'll take 50,000 cars a year just to break even." Car buyers should begin to see the Impact in showrooms by the mid '90s, Wilson says. What about the price? "I don't know, but the intention is to sell--it's costing them hundreds of millions of dollars right now, with nothing coming in," Wilson says. The Impact is a cool buggy. With top speed of 75 mph, it accelerates from 0-60 mph in eight seconds. A year and a half ago, it beat both the Mazda Miata and the Nissan 300ZX in a drag race. And a regenerative braking system captures energy from the vehicle's forward momentum and uses it to recharge the batteries. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 39 9-07-91 10:20am Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Solar 500 4 of 9 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ GM has also completed a "hybrid" known as the HX3. Hybrid technology--a very feasible direction for the transition phase from gas to electric vehicles--employs both gas and electric systems in the same car. The HX3 can change from one system to the other with the flick of a switch. And its electric system gets a charge when the gas engine's engaged. The HX3 also uses regenerative braking, plus solar cells on the roof to power an auxiliary ventilation system. The solar and electric categories overlap inasmuch as they both use electric propulsion, and both have batteries. But electric cars are incomparably more practical for everyday use. "Electrics are stock cars, first of all," said Michael Hackleman of Venice. Hackleman is one of the pioneers of the new electrics and his magazine, Alternative Transportation News, is familiar to everyone at the track. "They're normal road cars, have all the amenities, and look like any other car. Solar cars are all prototypes. And they're designed for open, deserted stretches of road. They do not mingle well with other kinds of traffic. Also, even the highest efficiency solar cells still supply only a bit more than a horsepower of energy. "Unless you have a really aerodynamic car--very lightweight-- and a super-efficient drivetrain, it's not going to take you very far down the road. Solar cars are very fragile too; they're not crash-worthy. Plus they're too low to the ground to be safe on the streets. And the aircraft quality materials needed and the solar cells themselves are enormously expensive--$100,000 and often more." (The winning "Spirit of Biel II" cost about $700,000.) If solar cars are impractical and you don't want to wait for the Impact there are plenty of people in the garage at Phoenix with another answer. Dave Twine of Pacific West Supply Co., electric car No. 10, explains "conversions." "For converting a gas car to electric," he explains, "you want something small and light-weight--ideally a custom-built fiberglass arrangement. For better efficiency, so you can go further on a charge. The less weight you have, the more efficiency you'll have--that's just basic engineering. You start putting a couple of kids, a dog, in the back the efficiency's gonna go way down. For our race car, we're heavier than we want to be, but we need the extra battery load for the race." Did he drive his car here from Oregon? "No. We would've had to stop and recharge every 50 miles. It would've taken us two years to get here." --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 40 9-07-91 10:21am Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Solar 500 5 of 9 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Then Craig Campbell takes us for a spin in car No. 49, his three-month-old, handmade electric, modeled after the VW Rabbit. "The first thing you notice," said Campbell as we roll out of the garage, "is it's so much quieter. Second, you can drive right by gas stations. And third, you don't go by the sound, you watch your meter." Campbell hand-builds his two-seaters, piece by piece, in Monterey and offers them for $26,000. The car has a 100-mile range (between charges), goes a comfortable 60 mph--or 75 for 10- minute hops--and recharges in six to eight hours in your garage or with an extension cord to your home. Now we stroll over to one of the Los Angeles teams: Hackleman, from Venice Beach, and his electric station-wagon. Hackleman's team, we now discover, has an unprecedented scheme to take on a full recharge in the pits during the race, in a 10-minute stop (as opposed to the eight hours most battery systems used in cars require." Hackleman's experimental system uses one giant battery pack in the car and an even bigger one waiting in the pit, to jolt the car's pack when it's out of juice. "If this can be done," race organizer, Ernie Holden, announces to the crowd on Saturday Morning, "right here, before the audience, we're talking about some interesting possibilities for the future." This novel quick-charge suggests that convenient placement of battery-recharging depots on normal roads could well-facilitate electric vehicle driving for all. Driven by Tim Considine, also of Venice (originally known for roles on "My Three Sons" and "The Mickey Mouse Club"), the Hackleman vehicle had been endearingly dubbed, "The Lead Sled." "Because of the battery load, we were 10 pounds over the 4,000- pound limit," says teammates Greg Glenn and Otmar Ebenhoech. "Other cars had to add stuff to reach the 2,500-pound minimum--we had to take out our back seat." Glenn, a photovoltaic panel engineer from Mar Vista, has converted a 1974 Fiat X19 to electric, in which his wife commutes to Paramount. And his next project is to mount a solar panel on the garage, to recharge the car by sun rather than socket, as another Los Angeles personality on hand for the races--and prominent contributor in the field of alternative energy actor/ecologist Ed Begley Jr. already does. Begley fuels not only his two electric cars but his entire house and office through solar paneling, (with normal electricity as a back up). --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 41 9-07-91 10:22am Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Solar 500 6 of 9 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ How does a busy guy like Begley handle the supposed limitations of electric driving. "How do you deal with the mileage limitation?" is the inevitable question. "In 1988," Begley replies, "I tried to stop driving. I started walking, riding my bike, taking the bus, using my small electric. Plus I was on location a lot. But I still had my car. Then in 1989, I returned to Los Angeles and decided to take it a little further: I sold my gas car, and bought a more practical electric- -something I could carry groceries in. "I'm a stubborn bastard and when I decide to do something, I go for it. I haven't bought a gallon of gas now for a year and a couple of months." Begley took his electric to the Oscars this year instead of a limo, and even car-pooled with an Oscar nominee. The racing circuit is quite foreign territory to the solar experts. The solar vehicles have never been on a track before, and are not built to handle wind or turns like this. The bicycle tires they employ are not used to these speeds or sloped curves either. "We're pioneering this thing, and the way we show ourselves is the way we'll be known," says Phillips (quite the pioneer himself--having sponsored the 1987 Australian World Solar Challenge and also a vehicle in the 1990 GM Sunrayce) in closing the drivers' meeting. Seven of the nine solar entries are from colleges, including vehicles from Cal State, Los Angeles and Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo. The favored, the finest and by far the fanciest, however, is the "Spirit of Biel II," a Swiss car sponsored by Swatch watches that has already won both the GM Sunrayce (Orlando to Detroit, summer 1990) and the Second World Solar Challenge (Darwin to Adelaide, Australia, November 1990). In fact, the other solar contenders see the Swatch car as a certain first and see themselves in a competition for runner-up. The ninth solar vehicle is Larry Mauro, representing ... himself, the only unsponsored contestant in the solar division. Larry was set further apart from the flock in that he arrived at the track Thursday night with not a solar vehicle in tow, but the raw materials for fabricating one. His "team" was his helpful brother, Kerry. Neither one had ever built a solar car before. The brothers Mauro were getting plenty of attention in the 11th hour, Friday night, diligently employing airplane glue and metal cutters to solar-cell this and fiberglass that. Speaking almost not at all, they were in astonishingly cheerful considering the unreadiness of their entry. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 42 9-07-91 10:22am Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Solar 500 7 of 9 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Apparently Larry's (just-built) motor was tested, at 5 p.m. Friday, but it was sitting by itself on the pavement. Who are these brothers, everyone wonders. Wilbur and Orville? Yes, actually. It turns out Larry built and flew the first ultra-light (home-built) aircraft, also without a corporate sponsor. And eventually the whole garage is tuned in to Larry's progress, some even believing this still-to-materialize solar ship might take second. The Mauros, meanwhile, anticipate a long night, and since the moon clearly can't top off whatever solar energy they've managed to capture with their unconnected solar panels, the "hands-off" rule is waved in this one exotic case. And what Larry lacks in teammates, he's gradually making up for in relatives, as sisters, mothers, and daughters materialize too from all quarters. Even Tim Considine, driving for Hackleman, turns out to be Larry's oldest, best buddy in the whole wide world. (To interview Tim was only to learn more about Larry, who seemingly has always been enchanted.) Saturday morning, race day. Begley speaks to the crowd as the solar cars take their starting positions. "We should stop thinking of electric cars as cars of the future, and think of them as cars of the present. I owned my first electric vehicle in 1970. There is 90 percent less pollution for 50 miles in an electric than in a gas car. One quarter of the gas you use is when your car is idling in traffic or standing still. In an electric car, when you take your foot off the accelerator--or the potentiometer, as it's called--you're using zero current. None, zip, zed. And we don't need new power plants for electric vehicles, because we charge at night, off-peak." The solar vehicles are at the starting line, the press has cleared the track. "Well," says Begley, "we can't say 'Gentlemen, start your engines' because there are no engines, and there are men and women racing. So...let's just say 'Let the sun start your motors!'" The green flag waves and soundlessly the solar vessels slide off the line. As it happened, the M.I.T. vehicle twice overtook the sure-bet Biel car Saturday, lending genuine and unexpected race-track thrills to the race. M.I.T. looked like an actual winner until it tipped on a curve and fell over, and wound up settling for second. (No one was injured.) --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 43 9-07-91 10:23am Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Solar 500 8 of 9 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Swatch kept right on ticking, reaching 63.114 mph. on its fastest lap. Cal State, L.A. won third (Jeff Silverstone driving, 54.869 fastest lap); Cal Poly came in sixth (37.205 fastest lap); M.I.T. took second, with 62.288; Western Michigan University/Jordan finished fourth; Rose Hulman (Indiana) got fifth; Arizona State University was seventh; and Virginia Tech sailed in eighth. And Larry...well, race fans, his showmanship was outstanding. Saturday's sunshine revealed a snazzy yellow race car in Larry's slot with Larry and Kerry doggedly outfitting it with solar panels. At racetime, however, Larry climbed in and his weight forced the wheels outward and one buckled, depositing the car's nose unceremoniously into the ground. It seemed that even the most confirmed underdog rooter would have to write him off. But five minutes later Larry's yellow hornet rolled into starting position, wheels fixed, nose secured. A little Mauro wizardry, nothing unusual. And the car actually ran. But despite Larry's happy revolutions on Saturday-- intermittently tooting and waving to the crowd--his battery did not hold out. (Neither did the wheel, but they fixed it again.) And in order to compete in Sunday's leg, he had to recharge and suffer a "battery penalty" costing him a day's worth of laps. So, although his overall speed would have earned him fifth place (48.097 fastest lap), the penalty reduced him to ninth. The electric race was another historic event. "This is really the first electric car race in the U.S., in a race format, high speeds," said Michael Hackleman afterward. "Range is a big issue with electric vehicles; here both the first and second cars averaged better than 50 mph for two hours solid, and reached speeds over 60 mph at points. This is significant for electric vehicles (EVs). Typically EVs only get a 50-60 mile range at those speeds." Of the 11 electric teams, five hailed from California. Christopher Smith of Palos Verdes drove the winning car for Southern California Edison/Arizona Public Service, averaging 54 mph (for two full hours). Then he turned around the next weekend and competed in the Toyota Formula Atlantic race at the Long Beach Grand Prix. "They're so unrelated, going 70 mph (in Phoenix) and then going 170 mph in the Grand Prix," Smith says. "The electric race was for different reasons, to increase awareness and improve technology. The Long Beach race was just for competition and entertainment and whatever racing is for--I've never quite figured that out." --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 44 9-07-91 10:23am Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Solar 500 9 of 9 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Second place in the electric category went to James Worden of Arlington, Mass. He entered two of his "Solectrias," both built in Suzuki bodies, the other took fifth. At 23, Worden is a six- year veteran of solar car racing in Europe, Australia and now the U.S., having built his first solar car at 16. He is also one of the few auto manufacturers offering a real alternative in late-model cars, selling his electrics for about $22,500 a copy. Gary Jackson of Poway came in third in the electric race. Craig Campbell of Monterey was fourth, averaging 43 mph. Michael Hackleman's new charging system worked--at least in principle. "At 47 miles, we came into the pits with a dead battery." said Hackleman. "With this method we were consequently able to rack up a total of 74 miles instead. Our sponsor, Trojan Battery Co., was surprised and delighted." But Hackleman's electric finished sixth, averaging 37 mph. The electric vehicle era is clearly well underway. There's constant evolution in the field--no final word, on-going experimentation, continual new concepts and capacities. If you have time and a little extra money, you can join the pioneers and build your own EV. Cost: as little as $4,000 if you do it alone. (Scott Cornell, eighth in the electric race, constructed his saucy red Karmann-Ghia from all scavenged parts.) The technology's not complicated, you just have to seek out sources. "And," according to Solar/Electric 500 participants, "if you ask 20 experts, you'll get 21 different answers on how to do it." But remember we're not talking black fingernails and destroyed clothing, we're talking clean tools, clean wiring, clean batteries. And little repair thereafter. The only dirty work, when you build your own, is in removing the car's existing innards, which the pros do in a day. Then on to the creative process of designing, obtaining and installing your electrical system. If you're short on time and long on money ($10,000 or more), hire an experienced EV technician to convert your car for you. An advantage of EV-conversion vs. purchase of a new electric car is that participating in the conversion educates you in the process. Consequently you can maintain your vehicle yourself and even upgrade it as the technology improves. The Inaugural Solar and Electric 500 was something of a Woodstock gathering of vehicle enviromentalists. There was a sense of global stewardship and honor for the sun which could help us out of our vehicle madness. "Well, it's the beginning of an era, I guess," muses Larry Mauro, as the sun slipped below the Arizona mountains. "Be interesting to see what happens." It seemed more of a dawn than a sunset.ER --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 45 9-07-91 8:03pm Area: Home Power From: Jim Bianchi To: all Re: deep cycle batteries Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I have a power wheelchair that uses two type 22 12vdc deep cycle batteries. I use this thing daily ..when I'm not in bed, on the toilet or in the shower, I'm in it. I use it for grocery shopping, trips to the library, to the mailbox, everywhere. Anyway, the life of these batteries is about a year. I have a charger which I plug into it nightly. At the start of the year, the batteries will `come up' to full charge almost immediately. Towards the end of that time, they show a reluctance to being charged and when the indicator does show a full charge, they `run down' AWFULLY fast -- it's a real bummer when you're crippled and your power chair runs out of edison several miles from home! Anyway, I've tried to figger why this happens -- it seems that the environment (heat, cold, vibration, etc.) would be MUCH more severe for an automobile battery as opposed to these, so WHY do they fail so quickly? Actually, this MAY be a blessing for some of you, as it means that there would seem to be a generous supply of used group 22 12vdc batteries to be found at shops that specialise in wheelchair servicing (they take my old ones and replace them). --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 46 9-08-91 12:12am Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Jim Bianchi Re: deep cycle batteries Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Original Message Date: 07 Sep 91 20:03:37 > From: Jim Bianchi > To: all > Subj: deep cycle batteries > I have a power wheelchair that uses two type 22 > 12vdc deep cycle batteries. I use this thing daily ..when > I'm not in bed, on the toilet or in the shower, I'm in it. I > use it for grocery shopping, trips to the library, to the > mailbox, everywhere. Anyway, the life of these batteries is > about a year. I have a charger which I plug into it nightly. > At the start of the year, the batteries will `come up' to > full charge almost immediately. Towards the end of that > time, they show a reluctance to being charged and when the > indicator does show a full charge, they `run down' AWFULLY > fast -- it's a real bummer when you're crippled and your > power chair runs out of edison several miles from home! > > Anyway, I've tried to figger why this happens -- it > seems that the environment (heat, cold, vibration, etc.) > would be MUCH more severe for an automobile battery as > opposed to these, so WHY do they fail so quickly? > It relates to the depth of discharge and recharge frequency most likely Jim. A car usually doesn't discharge it's battery that far or for very long, the alternator tops it right up again after it's used to start the car. If you could halve the depth of discharge they'd probably last a few months longer. I'm assuming they're either sealed or you check their water regularly. I would write to Pacific West Supply and ask them about options. They deal in all sorts of batteries and lately have been getting some reconditioned NiCads. The power density of Nicads isn't quite as good (less total power stored for a given volume) but they can handle deep discharge a lot better and can be recharged quite a few more times than even the premium lead-acid deep cycle batteries. It seems to me that while they might not get you as far that they wouldn't degrade as fast so you could count on their performance. I'll hazard a guess that the nicads would probably have the equivalent capacity as your lead acid do mid-life and be usable 2-3 times as long. If you write let them know the model battery and whether these are in series or parallel. Their address is 16643 SW Roosevelt, Lake Oswego, OR 97035. The too how's about building a framework overhead to hold a solar panel or two to help out the batteries when you go cruising? Could kinda be like an awning....maybe hand those furry balls from the edges too....be 'charp man. > Actually, this MAY be a blessing for some of you, as > it means that there would seem to be a generous supply of > used group 22 12vdc batteries to be found at shops that > specialise in wheelchair servicing (they take my old ones > and replace them). > I wish.....nope, actually you've pretty well used 'em up from what you're saying. The rest of the folks may have some ideas though. DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 47 9-07-91 12:38am Area: Home Power From: Terry Olsen To: Rich Jensen Re: oops Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ RJ>In a message to Gale Barrows <08-29-91 13:31> Terry Olsen RJ>wrote: RJ> RJ>TO> Yeah, the things I7ve read say the same thing...step it up RJ>TO> with a belt drive or (better) a belt drive that has those RJ>TO> rubber teeth because the transfer efficiency is better..but RJ>TO> that takes a semi-cogged wheel. Well, because it has to be RJ>TO> stepped up about 15-20 times, a dual step is usually done. RJ> RJ>A possible source for belts like this might be the RJ>junkyard... Belts with notches, such as overhead camshaft RJ>timing belts? They are thin, strong, meant to transfer power RJ>without being stretched or stretching, and last a long time. RJ>I just replaced one on my wife's escort... at 75k mi., so, RJ>they my take a lot of abuse... (it was about 1/8" thick and RJ>2" wide). I think that they only step them to a 2 to 1 ratio RJ>in a car, but you might be able to use a timing pulley on one RJ>end, and fabricate the other larger pulley. RJ> RJ>See ya, RJ>Rich Yep, that is the kind of belt to which I refered! But Rich, it was not I who intended to utilize such. My approach is different than that. I was responding to Gale Barrows' message and we were swapping information about what we had read and experienced so you message may have value to him. My approach to the wind thing involves redundancy by not depending on gear ratios from a central shaft but on picking up power from a hub. The hub being the perimeter of the blades and being made of metal. But the rubber belts with rubber teeth likly would require a double step up because the teeth width would be wide enough to require a pully several inches in diameter as the small pully. The large pully would need to be quite large for a single belt step up equal to times 15. wind = 100 RPM (typical) alternater requires 1800 RPM (typical) Therefore a step-up of 15-20 is required. And the rubber toothed belt is more efficient than a smooth belt but the step-up is going to be the same for belts or gears of ANY material!! And 10 to 20 percent of the wind power will be lost in the gearing. If perfectly designed and implemented, in theory, 8 percent would be the minimum gearing loss with your camshaft type belt. Doubt that will happen with a homebuilt rig though! --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 48 9-08-91 11:58am Area: Home Power From: Ren Just To: don kulha Re: Just wanted to let you know.... Attr: Pvt ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ That the HomeBrew Power Systems echo is quite fascinating. I wish I had more time to fully read the articles and such that you are posting. The echo seems to be screaming out at me to sell the homestead and move north to try some of these goodies out. Talk to you later. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 49 9-08-91 1:50pm Area: Home Power From: Gale Barrows To: Rich Jensen Re: wind generator Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I remember reading some time ago about a combination wind/water system. It sems that batteries were charged by a wind generator as normal but when the batteries got to a good charge level the electricicty was used to run a water pump. The water was pumped to an elevated tank and when the batteries got low and the wind didn't cooperate, the water was let out through a tuebine which rn a generator. Sounds like an expensive setup but it would also give a more reliable electric source. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 51 9-08-91 7:59pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Ren Just Re: Just wanted to let you know.... Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > From: Ren Just > To: don kulha > Subj: Just wanted to let you know.... > That the HomeBrew Power Systems echo is quite fascinating. > I wish I had more time to fully read the articles and such > that you are posting. > The echo seems to be screaming out at me to sell the > homestead and move north to try some of these goodies out. Yeah, we're having a lot of fun with it. Alternative energy systems is a fascinating topic (...course I had someone tell me that about programming in "C" Friday...) and it's amazing what one can do with the wide variety of stuff currently on the market. Even if one isn't interested in a self powered homestead the info would be valuble if you wanted to brew up an uninteruptable power system for your computer(s). You could also do it cheaper and better using standard AE stuff than you could buying in the computer accessories market. I've had such flakey service from Pacific Gas and Electric this summer that I almost dread the onset of winter! A lot of folks into radio (ham & packet) have also expressed interest in what we're doing. It would definitly be fun to pack up the family and live off the grid in the country. Sigh, maybe soon. I think it would be an eye opening/awareness enhancing experience for my kids and myself. When you have to make due with what you yourself can make, be it food, entertainment or power you really appreciate what you've got and become hyperaware of it's use. There's also a tremendous amount of satisfaction in knowing you can be self reliant. When I lived up in Humbolt and the road to our property washed out we had to carry in water and the kerosene for lamps....you can bet I didn't waste a drop! Till Later, Don --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR, The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 52 9-04-91 12:06pm Area: Home Power From: Jack Betz To: All Re: New Node Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ End User BBS, located in Pittsburgh, PA is now carrying this conference. --- KingQWK 0.05 Adding another point of access for Earthnet. --- UltraBBS v2.08 * Origin: End User BBS, (412)466-9380, Pgh PA, 14.4 USR HST/DS ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 53 9-07-91 2:42pm Area: Home Power From: Michael Favor To: Tom Keller Re: Hydro Power Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > someone else who actually has the books on the > Tesla Turbine may be able to be more specific (and more > accurate), but I don't believe that the Tesla Turbine > will work effectively as a hydro-turbing. when i mentioned the tesla turbine deisgn to a friend of mine who works on a fire crew he said it sounded very similar to the design of the water pumps they use on the fire-trucks. i don't know how similar the two designs actually are, but i wonder if it might be possible to use the pump in reverse as a hydro-turbine. again, this is all speculation on my part, but don't be too quick to rule out the possibility. michael. --- Opus-CBCS 1.71 * Origin: Humanity Net BBS, Chico CA, 916-891-1920 (1:119/4.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 54 9-07-91 3:01pm Area: Home Power From: Michael Favor To: Don Kulha Re: Turbine Fabrication Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > I will make the blueprints available to any interested partys > if it isn't a total flop. As far as availability of the > turbine goes I'm sure a machine shop local to you could > fabricate one. Many of the optimum design criteria are > unknowns at this point but we're trying to figure it out. > We decided to just barge ahead and build a working model > so we could play with different configurations to try and > determine how to optimize the design. this is the kind of thing i love to hear! "more power to ya" as we used to say. (-; i am eagerly awaiting the outcome of your tests, and would really appreciate a copy of the blueprints. i would be happy to pay copying and mailing costs. > Actually I'm sweating the collector/steam-generation > design more than the turbine. Would appreciate any input [...] > info to send this way my mailing address is: > > Don Kulha, POB 7518, Santa Rosa CA 95407 > ok, i will send you what i've got, which is mostly copies of articles from various popular-scientific type magazines over the last 5 or 6 years, but i think there are some useful ideas in them. michael. --- Opus-CBCS 1.71 * Origin: Humanity Net BBS, Chico CA, 916-891-1920 (1:119/4.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 55 9-05-91 10:36pm Area: Home Power From: Scott Parks To: Billy Cash Re: Battle of the Currents Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > > I would say, rather than "have to" use both .... we should > > re-evaluate our priorities and lessen our needs. > Why should we lessen our needs? We have all the plentiful > power we need. Some of our sources are not renewable, but I > think we should put more energy into developing better > energy. Rapid transit would lessen our needs, commuting by Modem would lessen our needs ..... product packaging, energy efficient housing and droping some of our "techno-junkyism".. - Walk a little lighter on this planet! Scott --- * Origin: The HELIX | NW Environment | HST*DS | (206)782-3365 (1:343/74) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 56 9-08-91 11:46pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Michael Favor Re: Hydro Power Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > when i mentioned the tesla turbine deisgn to a friend of > mine who works on a fire crew he said it sounded very > similar to the design of the water pumps they use on the > fire-trucks. i don't know how similar the two designs > actually are, but i wonder if it might be possible to use > the pump in reverse as a hydro-turbine. again, this is all > speculation on my part, but don't be too quick to rule out > the possibility. > If the boundary layer effect works in one direction it should work in the other. One book I have makes reference to these turbines as used for fire fighting water pumps. Apparently they were not as finicky as the standard lifting style impeller type pumps. Another thing the book mentioned in numerous places was the pumps tolerance of debris, which would also reccomend it as a hydro turbine (apparently they can pump slurry and even concrete with minimal ill effect). We will see. I hunted down an address for the company making these disk style pumps (Mr. Jake Possell @ American Development and Manufacturing in San Bernadino CA), have composed a letter to them and will be posting it off to them tomorrow. Will let you know if and how they respond......DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 57 9-08-91 11:56pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Jack Betz Re: New Node Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Welcome to the fray folks....Glad to have you join us. We're having too much fun to keep it to ourselves! (grin) Don Kulha, Moderator HOMEPOWR --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 58 9-09-91 12:04am Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Scott Parks Re: Edison's Medicine Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Rapid transit would lessen our needs, commuting by Modem > would lessen our needs ..... product packaging, energy > efficient housing and droping some of our "techno-junkyism".. > - > Walk a little lighter on this planet! > Sound advice friend. While this doesn't *exactly* fall under the heading of this echo's topics it relates to the type of sustainable systems approach alternative energy relates to. On one hand I do feel guilty sometimes knowing what it takes to build the semiconductors that we have in our computers...hopefully they're put to good use such as we're doing with this echo in trying to make a difference. Rich Perez, the publisher of Home Power Mag is really pleased about what we're doing because we can spread this info around without "killing more trees" as he puts it. I'm an information junkie and while I recycle every paper and magazine I get I'd still like to get it in digital form online and avoid it ever having to be in hardcopy. I try to keep a balance....the can opener is manual, all steel and I drive a 22 year old Volkswagen Bus (wouldn't trade it in if I won the lottery - I think the design is about optimum for what I need a vehicle to do). We need appropriate tools and to make good use of the one's we get. That's one of the reason's I championed the ECONET echo early one (pre-Esty) and why I started this. Hope what we're doing will make a difference....for our sake and our children's ....., Don Kulha, Moderator HOMEPOWR --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 59 9-05-91 5:05pm Area: Home Power From: Jim Dunmyer To: Don Kulha Re: M.E.N. generator Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > > > I'd be willing to bet that 99% of us using this echo > were either strongly influenced by TMEN or were at least > avid readers. I mourned the loss of the "old" TMEN when > the "Rodale-ization" and "Yupification" took hold. I > heard that it was no longer being published and then, a > few days ago, saw it on the newsstand again. The very day that I posted that message, I saw TMEN on the newstand myself, Don. It looked pretty good at a quick glance. Now, to see if they honor their "lifetime members".... --- OPMED 3.00 * Origin: EchoMaster (1:234/100) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 60 9-05-91 5:09pm Area: Home Power From: Jim Dunmyer To: Jim Bianchi Re: wind generator Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Gale. Re: obtaining proper prop blades and hubs, > mayhaps inquiries around a civil aviation airport might > turn up a source of used aircraft props. Seems to me > that, esp with a variable pitch arrrangement, these > would be ideal, if the price was right. Jim, Not being an aeronautical engineer, I don't know the reasons, but I've read that the shape of an airplane propellor is extremely poor for use on a wind machine. The variable pitch arrangement should be usable, however. --- OPMED 3.00 * Origin: EchoMaster (1:234/100) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 61 9-09-91 10:03am Area: Home Power From: Tom Keller To: Michael Favor Re: Turbine Fabrication Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Michael, I too would like copies of that. If Don is amenable, you could send a set to me, and I could use my copier to copy off a set for him (thus reducing the mailing and copying burden on you). Let me know. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 62 9-09-91 10:06am Area: Home Power From: Tom Keller To: Don Kulha Re: Edison's Medicine Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Don, Pardon the slightly off-topic query, but could you define what you meant by "pre-Esty" in your reference to ECONET? Thanks in advance. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 63 9-09-91 5:55pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Tom Keller Re: Edison's Medicine Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ So'kay.....My whole post was slightly off topic. The Moderator should exercise some caution after partaking of a couple fine ales 'lest he wax philosophical. It was a reference to a person who used to frequent that echo that ran off at least six people I know of (including myself) by their somewhat zelous and over confrontative approach. Being about the closest thing to a moderator the echo had at that time I should have stepped in but didn't since I don't much care to impose limits. Sigh, live and learn I guess.....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 64 9-09-91 09:35am Area: Home Power From: Michael Favor To: Jack Betz Re: New Node Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > End User BBS, located in Pittsburgh, PA is now carrying > this conference. > > --- > KingQWK 0.05 Adding another point of access for Earthnet. > i know this is slightly off-topic, but can you tell me briefly what Earthnet is, or offer pointers to more information? thanks, michael. --- Opus-CBCS 1.71 * Origin: Humanity Net BBS, Chico CA, 916-891-1920 (1:119/4.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 65 9-10-91 5:37pm Area: Home Power From: Greg Hassen To: don kulha Re: pv theft Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Thanks for the tips on theftproff pv mounts. I have seen the roof tiles that have solar cells attached to them in popular science a couple of years ago. Very expensive!! They are made in Japan I believe. I think someone could make alot of money if they could build a pv in the form of a roofing shingle or some other type of unrecognizeable form to prevent theft. At 300-500 bucks a pop, someone slimebag could hit the jackpot ! I'm trying to locate a supplier with price info on pv 's that you can just roll out on the roof when i'm at my cabin and roll them up when I leave. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 66 9-09-91 8:54pm Area: Home Power From: Rich Jensen To: Gale Barrows Re: wind generator Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In a message to Rich Jensen <09-08-91 13:50> Gale Barrows wrote: GB> I remember reading some time ago about a combination GB> wind/water system. It sems that batteries were charged by a GB> wind generator as normal but when the batteries got to a Well, that was not exactly what I had in mind... but, sort of. I discussed it with my father, and he said there would be too much loss converting from wind to pressurized fluid then to electricity... especially just to gain the power of the gusts... he wanted to know why people do not used "constant speed drives like airplanes?"... He said you simply set a speed, and it adjusts the pitch to match... as used in an AT6/SNJ or BT13... (I am not an airplane nut, but he is.) He said they use smaller ones in 4/6 cyl Navion planes (I think that's what he said). Also, they use a "CSD" (Constant Speed Drive) for powering generators in jet engines (he retired this year at 58 from P&WA as an Experimental Test Engineer), but he said they are fairly big/complex units. He said there are "hydrostatic" type drives used on some lawn mowers which might be adaptable, affordable and be better suited for a very low power type operation, using a 2 variable sized v-belt pulley arrangement. But, he thought the arrangement used on old steam type equipment using a 3 ball centrifigal force type setup could be the most accurate to adjust the pitch of the blades... the spinning weights might not detract from the power, but might actually help to even out the gusts, like a flywheel if mounted directly to the prop shaft inside the unit... I thought it might be kind of tough to get the right adjustments, he thought it could be calculated. And, through a little trial and error, set up using a 1/3 hp motor on a test bench to develop the correct characteristics instead of wasting the power held in gusts, or times of low winds... and could be made out of fairly inexpensive components... Well, that was most of our conversation on the way to the Stock Car Races at the Waterford Speedbowl last saturday nite (except for the blurbs about S shaped blades starting to be used in RC modeling, and insisting they might have some usefulness in windmills in the future). BTW, he gave me his season pass to use this weekend since he will be at the Air Races in Reno... This might be a lot of old water under the bridge, but it was new to me so I thought I would share it with you, I hope it didn't bore you. See ya, Rich --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 67 9-09-91 9:10pm Area: Home Power From: Rich Jensen To: Tom Keller Re: Hydro Power Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In a message to Rich Jensen <09-04-91 10:45> Tom Keller wrote: TK> accurate), but I don't believe that the Tesla Turbine will TK> work effectively as a hydro-turbing. As I understand it, TK> the Boundary Layer principal upon which it is based TK> requires that the pressurized medium be expanding. I know I saw a special on Tesla on PBS, and the pump which was similar was demonstrated using a small gas engine. They thought it was remarkable, and it actually looked pretty impressive... I thought if it could pump water, that the turbine would be able to harness power in a similar fashion... In fact, I thought it was designed to be used for this type of application, but I might be wrong... My father came across a book on Fitz water wheels which were tested to be about 95% efficient utilizing low heads... I do not think they are still in business, but, the designs are pretty straight forward... it is all in the shape of the buckets and the timing of the entry of the water. He picked up a bunch of materials from the Hanford Mills in upstate NY, so we could look it over... I see MEN prefers the Banki turbine, but efficency seems to be a lot lower in that type design for a low head/high volume operation... The search continues... Thanks for the input, Rich --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 68 9-10-91 8:04pm Area: Home Power From: Rich Jensen To: Terry Olsen Re: oops Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In a message to Rich Jensen <09-07-91 00:38> Terry Olsen wrote: TO> RJ>TO> stepped up about 15-20 times, a dual step is usually TO> RJ>A possible source for belts like this might be the TO> RJ>junkyard... Belts with notches, such as overhead TO> RJ>timing belts? They are thin, strong, meant to transfer TO> gear ratios from a central shaft but on picking up power TO> from a hub. I have seen such arrangements before when two bicycle rims were used, and a long belt wrapped around both of them and around a small pulley... In a fairly large sized prop setup, that would seem like a real pain in the butt, and it would seem to be better to use chains and sprockets... but, if you are talking about using the hub in the center of the blades, you might want to consider a spinner for your propellor... (unless you already have) since the center of the props are basically a waste anyway, and driving off of a spinner either on the internal or external surface of the back end of it. I have not seen anything like that yet... Rich --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 69 9-10-91 06:30am Area: Home Power From: Terry Olsen To: Jim Dunmyer Re: wind generator Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ JD> Not being an aeronautical engineer, I don't know the JD>reasons, but I've read that the shape of an airplane JD>propellor is extremely poor for use on a wind machine. The JD>variable pitch arrangement should be usable, however. I understand the reasoning...in the same way that a generator makes a poor motor and a motor makes a poor generator.....so too with airplane props. Instead of high speed (relative to the wind) cutting through the air the prop would be asked to be effected by the air in a windmill...the twist, etc doesn't do a very good job.. --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 70 9-10-91 12:54pm Area: Home Power From: Jim Bianchi To: Jim Dunmyer Re: Wind Generator Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Jim, re: using aircraft props for wind generators. You're prob right. Seems that the a/c props would be optimised for GRABBING and SHOVING the air, which is a different thing entirely from having the air SHOVE and TURN the blades. This is why I suggested asking about a variable pitch thingie. Hey, if you're poor and it turns out that the dif 'tween having a properly designed and constructed prop at a cost you can't afford and a surplus variable pitch prop that works *nearly* as well (but not quite) at a price you CAN afford, well.. The main reason I mentioned that, though, was that, considering the speeds these things are turning when they're operating as propel- lers, considerations relating to "gee, I wonder if the blades will hold up and not fly apart due to poor mat'l, design, etc." simply shouldn't arise. Ditto hubs. With the variable pitch thing, it should be fairly easy to optimise the setting for max power transmittal. Like I said, it might not be the most efficient in the east, but IF the price was right, the compromise might not be unacceptable. I don't know if the price would be right myself, which is why I suggested asking to find out. Sometimes, a guy can get a real bargain thru a friend -- on a one time only basis. It all depends on who you know, where you go, etc. --- The Msg Mgr for TDBS * Origin: Home of The Sports Network & TDBS/DOOR Software. (1:125/2553) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 71 9-08-91 1:54pm Area: Home Power From: Martin Belcke To: All Re: Backbone status Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Well, it won't be "officially" announced until Monday 9 Sep, but HOMEPOWR has obtained backbone status. CONGRADULATIONS!! This will mean that feeds will need to be arranged with NEC's, etc PLEASE - - DO NOT ASK FOR THIS ECHO FROM YOUR NEC until after Wednesday, Sep 11th. Give them time to find out about it. --Martin Belcke-- REC11 --- D'Bridge 1.30/002225 * Origin: Region 11 REC (309) 672-4405 (1:232/10) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 72 9-11-91 11:54am Area: Home Power From: Philip Malkin To: All Re: Hydrogen Power Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Does anyone have information about using water as a fuel source to generate hydrogen as an energy source. I have heard that by seperating the H2O by electrolysis the hydrogen can be used as a source of fuel for generating energy for powering an automobile, etc. Any additional info about this stuff would be most appreciated. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 73 9-10-91 10:26pm Area: Home Power From: Billy Cash To: Tom Keller Re: Battle of the Currents Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Kindly tell the family and friends of the crew of the > CHallenger that such an accident is highly unlikely. Kindly > tell the family and friends of the Apollo crew that was burnt > alive that such an accident was highly unlikely. The Challenger and Apollo accidents were not nuclear-related, as you know. They were both catastrophic, but they did not involve plutonium or other radioactive substances, and they did not kill or mutate millions of people on Earth, as the critics of the Galileo feared. > The fact is that due to cost-cutting measures and political > haymaking, the safety of our space program is woefully bad, > and such accidents are *MUCH* more likely than the theoretical > calculations would suggest. Given the number of space > missions launched, and the number of fatal accidents already > on the books, would you care to re-calculate the odds based on > pragmatic experience, rather than over optomistic theories? I'm not basing anything on theories. But if you care to calculate the odds of nuclear contamination of the entire planet, the odds are zero -- if you base it on "pragmatic experience." > You are quite right, "fascistic" *IS* highly personal. > Since you felt it necessary to denigrate realistic, concerned > individuals for expressing honest, reasonable (based on FACTS, > not THEORIES) concerns, I felt no compunction about pointing > out to you how offensive you were being. However, you are wrong again. I don't believe that your concerns are based on real facts, true numbers. True numbers cannot be optomistic -- they are numbers. And since the argument of facts, not theories, is a false one, the rest of the statement is also a false one. >>>W>F>C>3> --- * Origin: Programmer's Connection BBS - Columbus - 614/875-2286 (1:226/70) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 74 9-10-91 10:35pm Area: Home Power From: Billy Cash To: Terry Olsen Re: Battle of the Currents Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Ohio is nice, but the West Coast has some hills..I hope to > instalal a RAM pump at a small spring and bring costless water > to my garden. Do hills and springs go together? (You sort of lost me.) Most of Ohio is flat, but glaciers left the southeast slice untouched, so we have lots of gravel, sand, granite, coal and limestone, and some mountains (about 800 feet is the average -- nothing big.) > I'd agree with most of what you've been saying. That makes one... >>>W>F>C>3> --- * Origin: Programmer's Connection BBS - Columbus - 614/875-2286 (1:226/70) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 75 9-11-91 11:00pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Rich Jensen Re: Hydro Power Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > > I know I saw a special on Tesla on PBS, and the pump which > was similar was demonstrated using a small gas engine. They > thought it was remarkable, and it actually looked pretty > impressive... I thought if it could pump water, that the > turbine would be able to harness power in a similar > fashion... In fact, I thought it was designed to be used for > this type of application, but I might be wrong... It's been conjectured that Tesla's initial insite into the turbine he designed was as you thought...for taking power from the flow of water. When he was a child he made a model of a small water wheel of a similar configuration. One conceptual model Tesla used to demo the idea of the turbine was to take a disk on a shaft, tilt it and flow water over one side. Of course the adhesion of the water to the disk causes it to spin. His inital design for the turbine used steam but he claimed any fluid (gases, water, steam, air) would work. Strange things happen...The fellow who has been building all these Tesla style pumps, most likely including the pump you saw on PBS (I really wish I'd seen that), C.R. Possell, called me out of the blue today! I wasn't home dammit but my answering machine got his message and he left an address. Guess someone I called looking for a lead to contact him must have contacted him, told him what I was up to and given him my number. I hope to get the REAL dope on the turbines and pumps here soon. He left me his address and invited me to write. After all the trouble I've gone to to track him down I was absolutely floored! DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 76 9-11-91 11:14pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Thermal Tower Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Some years back in the now defunct Solar Age magazine I saw a very interesting powerplant. It was a tall circular tower rising up from a base that spread out maybe 100 yards around the base of the cylinder forming the tower. This base was evevated from the ground and gently sloped up to the base of the cylinder. There was a rotor of some sort (maybe more than one) at the top of the tower. Air was heated at the base and in the cylinder, causing it to rise and turning the rotors generating electricity. I think this was in France. Anyone out there know anything about this? I thought it was a truely elegant idea and apparently it did work though how well remains to be seen. DCK P.S.-Forgot to mention that the whole thing was colored black.... --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 77 9-11-91 11:34pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Philip Malkin Re: Hydrogen Power Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Does anyone have information about using water as a fuel > source to generate hydrogen as an energy source. I have > heard that by seperating the H2O by electrolysis the > hydrogen can be used as a source of fuel for generating > energy for powering an automobile, etc. Any additional info > about this stuff would be most appreciated. > First off let me reccomend that you send $3.50 to the folks at Home Power Mag (POB 130, Hornbrook CA 96044) and ask for a copy of issue #22 (May 1991). It contained two excellent articles on Hydrogen, electrolyzers and fuel cells (which generate electricity from Hydrogen and oxygen). Humbolt State College in northern CA has an excellent program going which you'd find fascinating (outlined in the issue). Also in that issue was an article on electrolyzers by L.E Spicer (Hydrogen Wind Inc., RR #2 Box 262, Lineville Iowa, 50147 (515)876 5665) who sells these devices for $125. They will also sell you plans and info for a buck. That should get you going! DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 78 9-10-91 07:22am Area: Home Power From: Dennis Garringer To: Don Kulha Re: Ae Careers 2 Of 2 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Don, Called the Colorado Mtn. College today about their Solar program. Sorry, but it no longer exists. Two of the gentelmen that were teaching it have struck out on their own as Solar Tech Institute at Carbondale Colorado. Their number is 303 963-0715 (office) or after hours 303 963-2682 (after 7:00 pm) ask for Ken. Hope this helps, Bye!! Dennis --- QuickBBS 2.66.r * Origin: Wildfire - Save the Earth... Conserve & Recycle . (1:119/911.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 79 9-12-91 10:23pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: PV Panels 1 of 5 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ So how many PV cells do I need in my panels, anyway? by Richard Perez Solar modules are made with between 32 and 44 series cells for 12 Volt use. How many cells are enough? How many are too much? What is the optimum number of cells to put in a panel for 12 Volt use? Well, as usual, it depends on our specific application. The Single PV Cell In order to understand why there are differing numbers of PV cells in modules, let's first examine the single cell. This little marvel converts light directly into DC electricity. It does this job within very specific limits. These limits are, according to the quantum mechanics among us, built into the structure of our Universe. The limits of the single PV cell determine the operation of the collection of cells we call a module or panel. The electrical power generated by the PV cell has two components: voltage (E) and current (I). The output power (Watts or P) that the cell produces is the product of cell's output current times its output voltage. P=IE. The voltage output of the PV remains fairly constant over a wide range of input lighting, just as long as there is some light. The current, however, varies in direct proportion to the amount of light entering the PV cell. The more light entering the cell, the more current it produces. The cell's voltage remains the same from dim to bright lighting. For the purposes of discussion here, consider a 100mm X 100mm (4 in. by 4 in.) multicrystal silicon PV cell. Monocrystal or amorphous silicon cells will differ slightly. The absolute value of the voltage information will differ, but the general performance trends remain the same for all types of silicon PV cells. This example cell is rated using the standard AM 1.5 Solar Input of 100 milliWatts per square centimeter, about the amount of sunshine you receive on a sunny noontime. PV Cell Voltage This multicrystal silicon solar cell has an open circuit voltage of about 0.57 Volts at 25 C. Open circuit voltage means that the cell is not connected to any load and is not moving any current. Under load, the output voltage of the individual cell drops to 0.46 Volts at 25 C. It will remain around this 0.46 V level regardless on the sun's intensity or the amount of current the cell produces. This decrease in voltage is caused by resistance losses within the cell's structure and the metallic conductors deposited on the cell's surfaces. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 80 9-12-91 10:23pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: PV Panels 2 of 5 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Temperature affects the PV's cell's voltage. The higher the temperature is, the lower the cell's output voltage becomes. The PV cell's output voltage falls about 5% for every 25 C. increase over 25 C. PV Cell Current While the voltage of a PV cell is very reliable, its current output is one big, fat variable. The cell's current depends on how intense the light is, and most importantly for this discussion, the voltage difference between the cell (or collection of cells) and the load (in most cases a battery). Under operating conditions this cell is rated at 2.87 Amperes of current by its manufacturer. I have measured the current output of this type of cell at 4.2 Amperes on a very cold, very clear, very bright & very snowy Winter's noon. Altitude is a factor that affects the cell's output current. The Earth's atmosphere is absorbs sunlight. The higher you are, the less atmosphere there is above you, and the more sunlight you receive. Expect to see current gains of about 5% for every 5,000 feet above sea level. Cells into Modules When PV cells are assembled into modules they are wired in series. The positive pole of the one cell is connected to the negative pole of the next cell, and so on until all the cells in the module are connected in a series string. This series wiring is done to raise the voltage of the module. A single cell has a voltage potential of 0.46 Volts. This is not enough voltage to do any usable work in a 12 Volt system. But if we add the Voltage of say 36 cells by series wiring them, then we have a working voltage 16.7 Volts, and that's enough to charge a 12 Volt battery. The operational voltage range of a lead acid battery is between 11.6 and 16 volts. The battery's exact voltage depends on state of charge, temperature, and whether the battery is being charged or discharged at the time. It is this battery voltage curve that the modules are designed to fit. After losses in the blocking diode and the wiring are subtracted, the module MUST provide greater voltage than the battery possesses. If PV module cannot do this, then it cannot transfer electrons to the battery. It cannot recharge the battery. The current produced by the module remains the same as the current produced by a single cell, about 3 Amperes. The series wiring technique causes the voltages to be added, but the current remains the same. We could parallel connect the 36 cells. This would add their currents rather than their voltages. The result would be a module that produces 108 Amperes, but at only 0.46 Volts. Hardly a useful item. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 81 9-12-91 10:24pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: PV Panels 3 of 5 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ So How Many Cells? PV module manufacturers make 12 Volt modules with 32, 36, or 44 cells in the series string. They are all rated at about the same current, being composed of the same basic cell. The difference between these modules is one of voltage. The question for us to answer is how their output voltages relate to the voltages we require for our system. 32 Cells in Series This module has the lowest voltage rating of 14.7 Volts (0.46 Volts times 32 cells). This is because it has the fewest cells in its series string. This module is designed to very closely follow the charge curve of a 12 Volt lead acid battery. As the battery fills, its voltage climbs. When this battery is almost full its voltage is around 15 volts. The 32 cell module simply hasn't enough voltage to continue recharging the battery when its full. These 32 cell modules are commonly called "self regulating" because they lack the voltage to overcharge the average, small, lead acid battery. The applications suitable for the 32 cell module are RVs, boats, and summer cabins. These applications are characterized by intermittent use and relatively small battery capacity. In these applications, the 32 cell module can be used without a regulator and the batteries will not be overcharged during periods of disuse. 36 Cells in Series This module has an output voltage of 16.7 Volts (0.46 times 36 cells). This is enough voltage to continue to charge a lead acid battery even though it may be fully recharged. The 36 cell module is the workhorse of the Home Power user. It is most suitable for 12 Volt AE systems with battery capacities over 350 Ampere-hours. It has the higher output voltage necessary to recharge high antimony, deep cycle, lead acid batteries. It does, however, require regulation in many cases to prevent overcharging the battery during periods of disuse. This type of module needs regulation in systems where the total current generated by the PVs is greater than a C/20 rate to the battery. For example, a 350 Ampere-hour battery has a C/20 rate of 17.5 Amperes (350 Ampere-hours/20 hours). At 3 Amperes per module, the 350 Ampere-hour battery will not require regulation until there are 6 modules within the system. This is true only if the system is in constant use. If a system is unused for days at time, then regulation should be added if the 36 cell modules can produce a C/50 rate or more to the battery. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 82 9-12-91 10:24pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: PV Panels 4 of 5 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ The 36 cell module is more cost effective in Home Power applications because of its higher current at higher voltages and temperatures. The higher voltage of 36 series wired cells more effectively recharges the large lead acid batteries. Higher temperatures cause the voltage of any module to drop. The 36 cell module has enough voltage surplus to still be effective at higher temperatures, like on a hot Summer's afternoon. 44 Cells in Series The modules are the hot rods of the PV industry. 44 cells in series yields a working output voltage of 20.3 volts. These modules do not diminish in current output into a 12 Volt system, regardless of battery's voltage or high module temperature. They WILL REQUIRE REGULATION in just about every application. They have the voltage to raise the system's voltage, while charging full batteries, to well over 16 volts. This is high enough to make any equipment on line (like an inverter) very unhappy. Over voltage can ruin electronic equipment. The 44 cell modules have very specific applications. They are designed for systems that must accept voltage losses in transferring the PV energy to its destination. Consider a low voltage pump located some 300 feet down a well. The electricity that powers this pump must travel 300 feet down the well to the pump and 300 feet back up again. This 600 foot long wire run will have appreciable voltage losses even if monster big wire (like 0 or 00 gauge) is used. In order to deliver acceptable voltage levels at the pump we can increase the voltage of the module and just eat the losses in the wire. The 44 cell module, with its 20.3 Volt operating level can stand a loss of over 6 Volts and still be effective at the pump. A word to the wise here. The cost of additional cells within the module is far greater than heavy copper wire. Be sure that it's not cheaper to use big wire in your application before you decide on the 44 cell module to solve voltage loss problems. Another side benefit of the 44 cell module is its response in high temperatures and very low levels of light. We ran two modules, each using the same cells, side by side for comparison. The only difference between the modules was one had 36 cells in series, the other 44. The 44 cell module consistently produced more useable power in three situations: 1) The system voltage was above 15 volts, 2) the ambient temperature was very hot (over 40 C.), & 3) the ambient light was very dim (in fog or on overcast days). We tabulated the results and compared performance with price and the 36 cell module was more cost effective. Even though the 44 cell module performed better, this increase in performance was not enough to offset its higher price. If you live in a very hot area, then the additional voltage of the 44 cell module may indeed pay for itself. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 83 9-12-91 10:25pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: PV Panels 5 of 5 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In A Nutshell The 32 cell module is for small and often unused 12 volt systems. Its big advantage is it doesn't need a regulator. The 36 cell module is best for most Home Power systems. It supplies the most cost effective energy to 12 volt systems using lead acid batteries. The 44 cell module is suited to 12 volt systems with voltage loss problems. Its advantages are higher output voltage and strong performance in very hot locations. Courtesy of and Copyright By Home Power Magazine POB 130, Hornbrook CA 96044, 1989 --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 84 9-12-91 8:54pm Area: Home Power From: Rich Jensen To: All Re: PURPA Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I just got this add in the mail, I don't remember seeing any mention of it here yet, I hope I am not being repetitive... PURPA Lines. The latest intellegence on opportunities in independent power development, in an easy to read format. You get up-to-date state and national news, learn how the latest regulatory actions can mean more business for you... You can get a one month free subscription, too. It costs $147.50 for 7 months, but it claims to feature a lot of valuable information, contacts in FERC and a resident attorney, plus hot tips in power and which companies are looking to buy power. Sounds like a lot of money to me, but I think I might take them up on the free trial issue... Their address: PURPA LINES, HCI Publications, 410 Archibald St, Kansas City MO, 64111-9924 Phone: (816)931-1311, Fax: (816)931-2015 I thought someone may be interested, Rich --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 85 9-13-91 11:14am Area: Home Power From: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: PV Panels 5 of 5 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ DK>The 32 cell module is for small and often unused 12 volt DK>systems. DK>Its big advantage is it doesn't need a regulator. DK> DK>The 36 cell module is best for most Home Power systems. It DK>supplies DK>the most cost effective energy to 12 volt systems using lead DK>acid DK>batteries. DK> DK>The 44 cell module is suited to 12 volt systems with voltage DK>loss DK>problems. Its advantages are higher output voltage and DK>strong performance DK>in very hot locations. DK> DK> Courtesy of and Copyright By Home Power Magazine I sure don't agree with Home Power Magazine nor with you for posting this misinformation! 44 cell modules are suited to 12 volt systems with voltage loss problems? Good GOD! Why shoud one tolerate a voltage loss? Take any of the modules you list and connect them DIRECTLY to a standard 12 volt car battery and you'll be able to have some lights or TV. Maybe an hour or two. And don't put in any silly diodes either, just connect them directly. In the case of the largest panel, if it might go some time without being used, then better to have 2 car batteries. But if you've got a deep cycle battery then by all means connect up to 4 panels of any size directly and don't worry at all about overcharge unless you don't use the system except once a month. There is a lot of sillyness about voltage regualtors and diodes and such nonsense .... and all of it is just a waste of time, money and energy untill you get to 6 panel systems or larger...well there could be some minor exception for little used systems and very hot panels...but most of the installations, actual installations by professionals have voltage regualtors ($20-$150) and diodes ($2-$10) and are only a source of lost power and money. Such junk malfunctions and often is poorly connected and worse! Take all that junk out of small systems! Take it all out of systems of 4 panels or less...and most of it out of 6 panels or less. And the way to mount a panel is complicated, right? About 1-2 'o-clock connect a 12 or 24 watt light bulb accross the panel and turn the panel for max brightness..for God sake! All this high-tech baffelflash is terrific but doesn't drive the stereo! --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 86 9-14-91 12:07am Area: Home Power From: Joel Kerr To: Don Kulha Re: Thermal Tower Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ don u got Solar age too? i wish i could find by back copies of it. I recall the idea you are talking about. Seems the material would heat up the airand looking for a place to escape would rise up this fabric tower and turn the "paddle wheel" to generate power. Joel Kerr --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 87 9-10-91 8:32pm Area: Home Power From: Jim Dunmyer To: Rich Jensen Re: wind generator Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > > Has anyone ever done any research where a hydralic pump > is mounted to the prop shaft? I know this may introduce > other problems, and even some loss between the transfer > of energy barrier, but it might make storing gusts > possible, and constant output through a hydralic motor > from a pressure storage tank... > I have had several machines that used HydroStatic drives (which is what you're describing). Their advantage is flexibility: The drive line is much simpler from a mechanical standpoint, and the speed control of the driven element while having a constant-speed power source is great. However, efficiency is not their strong suit. You pay dearly in heat (read: power) loss for this flexibility. Mind you, it's a small price to pay when you need that flexibility, but it wouldn't be too nice for a wind system. Hydraulic systems use "accumulators" which are far more than just a pressure tank, and insignificant amounts of energy can be stored practically in an accumulator. --- OPMED 3.00 * Origin: EchoMaster (1:234/100) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 88 9-14-91 3:59pm Area: Home Power From: Gale Barrows To: Rich Jensen Re: wind generator Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Some of the old wind generators from the 1930's and 1940's when they were popular and common used a variable pitch blade that helped maintain a constant blade speed. The mechanism was fairly complicated yet simple once you understood it. It seems that many of todays makers are attempting to re-invent the wheel with their designs. In the pre REA days, many if not most farms had wind generators and ran 32 volt systems. The old 32 volt motors and such are still turning up on auctions. I am sure there are still a lot of the old generators still stashed in sheds around the prairie. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 89 9-14-91 5:24pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Terry Olsen Re: 44 Cell Panels Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > I sure don't agree with Home Power Magazine nor with you for > posting this misinformation! > 44 cell modules are suited to 12 volt systems with voltage loss > problems? Good GOD! Why shoud one tolerate a voltage loss? > Take any of the modules you list and connect them DIRECTLY > to a standard 12 volt car battery and you'll be able to have > some lights or TV. Maybe an hour or two. And don't put in Calm down Terry....This isn't a conspiracy or anything. There are solid reasons for the use and existance of 44 cell panels. They start producing useable power at 5% of maximum solar insolation, are good for systems with losses and (as you noted) are sometimes needed in very hot climates. In the higher latitudes, such as Alaska they are very popular and widely used since the usual 16V panels (44's are usually 17.5) don't start making power until the sun reachs 10% of max. Why should anyone tolerate a voltage loss? Ideally they shouldn't but realistically most people do. Maybe you want to place your panels on the otherside of the garden away from the house or your house is on the north side of a ridge....95% of the folks should be using 16 volt panels but there is room in the market now for special sized panels to fill special requirements....DCK P.S.-The 17.5v panels are also popular for direct use setups such as stock pond water pumping where they will be used without batteries and the wire usually needs to be fed a ways down the well. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 90 9-14-91 6:00pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Joel Kerr Re: Thermal Tower Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > don u got Solar age too? i wish i could find by back copies > of it. > > I recall the idea you are talking about. > Seems the material would heat up the airand looking for a > place to escape would rise up this fabric tower and turn the > "paddle wheel" to generate power. > Yep, I took Solar Age and enjoyed it too. I was really suprised when it folded. Yep, that's the one. Granted for the space it took up and the difficulty to errect it the power was low (something like 20kW) but it was an ellegant idea. One of these days when I have the leisure time to pursue it I'd like to see if the idea couldn't be applied on a smaller scale. With some of the new solar selective thin film coatings on foils it might really be efficient enough to scale down. Even 500W would be nice. I built a solar air heater and the volume of convective flow through it suprised me....hmmmmm....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 91 9-14-91 2:52pm Area: Home Power From: gordon green To: Jim Bianchi Re: deep cycle batteries Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ On , Jim Bianchi (1:125/7) wrote to all: JB> I have a power wheelchair that uses two type 22 12vdc deep JB> cycle batteries. I use this thing daily ... JB> Anyway, the life of JB> these batteries is about a year. I have a charger which I plug into JB> it nightly. At the start of the year, the batteries will `come up' to JB> full charge almost immediately. Towards the end of that time, they JB> show a reluctance to being charged and when the indicator does show a JB> full charge, they `run down' AWFULLY fast -- Some battery types (NiCad for example) do not do well if you partially discharge then recharge. In time the battery "forgets" that it has the unused capacity. Say you discharge it half way each day then recharge, after some number of cycles the battery only thinks it has about 1/2 the amp-hr capacity of its initial rating. Might be worthwhile to contact the battery manufacturer to see if the batteries you are using exhibit this characteristic, and if they do, what can be done to overcome the problem. Perhaps occasionally deep discharging to some level followed by a full charge will help refresh the battery's memory as to its capacity. I don't know if this is the situation in your case, but might be worth a call or letter to your battery manufacturer. You wouldn't need to gain much battery life to more than pay for the call. Hope you find an answer. --- msged 2.07 * Origin: Cuckoo's Nest, Hudson, NH : SDN/SDS HST/v32b (1:132/119.1) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 92 9-12-91 10:45pm Area: Home Power From: Scott Parks To: Don Kulha Re: Edison's Medicine Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > > Walk a little lighter on this planet! > Sound advice friend. While this doesn't *exactly* fall > under the heading of this echo's topics it relates to the > type of sustainable systems approach alternative energy > relates to. On one hand I do feel guilty sometimes knowing > what it takes to build the semiconductors that we have in our > computers...hopefully they're put to good use such as we're > doing with this echo in trying to make a difference. Well i figure it fits into the philosophy of "sustainable Earth" and as many of us that live in the more popular areas of this country know, the cost of "real-estate" is forcing philosophy on us. To have access to 5 or 20 acres these days is a real luxury and .... alot of the "real learning" about projects comes from "hands on". - Hard to build a Wind-Machine ontop of your Condo - BTW .... Has anyone done well at using a vertical axis wind-machine for minimal amounts of power or "water warming". Scott --- * Origin: The HELIX | NW Environment | HST*DS | (206)782-3365 (1:343/74) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 93 9-15-91 07:31am Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Scott Parks Re: Condo Retrofit Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > and as many of us that live in the more popular areas of this > country know, the cost of "real-estate" is forcing philosophy > on us. To have access to 5 or 20 acres these days is a real > luxury and .... alot of the "real learning" about projects > comes > from "hands on". > > - Hard to build a Wind-Machine ontop of your Condo - > Excellent point Scott. The condo homeowners association would likely complain if someones condo started to sprout PV panels on the roof, a pelton wheel turbine on the downspout, water heating panels on the side and a 60 foot tall 10kW wind plant on the patio (grin). I had not thought about that situation frankly, guess you could chalk it up to tunnel-vision. Am sure there's somethings one could do. I had some friends in Oakland CA who lived in an apartment who did a couple interesting things (It helped that they lived in the top of a funky old building with an absentee landlord who didn't give a shit). They added some solar water heating panels on the flat roof which was easy since there were some old black painted water heater tanks up there which had at one time been plumbed into their water heater as a sort of preheater. The old tanks had been there over 40 years and was part of someone's old solar water preheater. They also built a solar air heater and hung it out a south facing window; it collected a fair amount of heat to cut down their heating load a bit (it probably would have sufficed to heat a room during the day anyway). They were doing this 15 years ago before they moved back to Wyoming. As much fun as actually generating your power (or some of it) is I'd imagine that the condo dweller would probably do best to put most of their energy into conservation. Super efficient lighting, water heater blankets, programable thermostats, a point-of-use water heater for the kitchen, window glazing, etc. would be practical and benefical. They might also look into an electric vehicle if their situation (necessary commute mileage, recharge power availability) would allow it. Co-generation or waste heat recycling could also be a part of the picture. They could run a computer (so they could take part in this echo and others) and use the waste heat the fan rejects to help warm the place (...grin). Other folks here may be able to come up with other ideas. Good observation Scott, it makes for an interesting exercise which is potentially useful. DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 94 9-15-91 08:11am Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Da Rules... Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ According to echo policy the moderator of a conference is periodically supposed to post the rules of their conference (sigh). Since we don't want to endanger our backbone status I guess I should make a cut at establishing some.... The Rules for the HOMEPOWR Echo 1. Be niether annoying nor too easily annoyed. Remember that online conversations lack some of the visual body language clues that face to face conversations do. 2. Post no private messages to the echo. These will be bounced around just like normal messages wasting money for the participating sysops who can read it anyway. 3. Please stick to the topics of the conference. Discussion which relates to the larger field of sustainable systems that benefit the earth and it's dwellers are allowed. 4. Please limit debate on political issues as opposed to technical one's which is okay. Debate is the keyword here. Personal attacks or flaming are discouraged. Okay, that's enough for now. I'll clean these up and ponder them a while so they can be reposted periodically. The forms have been observed.....DCK, Moderator HOMEPOWR --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 95 9-15-91 10:47am Area: Home Power From: Tom Keller To: gordon green Re: deep cycle batteries Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ No, Jim's batteries are conventional lead-acid deep-cycle batteries. He's just plain wearing them out. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 96 9-15-91 10:49am Area: Home Power From: Tom Keller To: Don Kulha Re: Condo Retrofit Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ RE: waste heat recycling I have the heating vent in my computer lab sealed off. Within a few minutes of booting up in the morning, my 386-20 + monitor wrms the room up adequately in all weather. By evening, the room is often uncomfortably warm, even in winter. I often open the window to let some heat out! (...'course, I am one warm blooded fellow...my favorite temperature range is 55-65 F.) --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 97 9-15-91 10:52am Area: Home Power From: Tom Keller To: ALL Re: new lighting technology Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ New Lamp Design Philips Lighting has developed a new kind of lamp that is as efficient as flourescent lamps, but that lasts up to 60,000 hours. The lamp is known as an "induction lamp." A high frequency current (2.65 Mhz) is induced into a low-pressure mercury vapor gas by means of an induction coil. The current excites the gas to produce UV, which is then converted to visible light by phosphors identical to those used in current flourescent lamps. The lamps went on sale in Europe this September, and should be available in the U.S. by late 1992. The name of the product is the "Induction QL." Philips Lighting, in Somerset, N.J., claims that at 60,000 hours, the lamp will be degraded by approximately 30% (which means that it may remain useful much longer). Apparently, the lamp is not easily retro-fittable, as it's only source of power is the 2.65 Mhz RF required by the induction coil. It is being marketed primarily into the commercial lighting arena. - based on an article on p57 of the September issue of "Popular Science." --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 98 9-15-91 12:08pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Old AE 1 of 6 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ THE POWER OF PERSONAL RESOURCEFULNESS by Wayne Phillips The year was 1928 and the place was a small farm at the upper end of Coonhollow, a watershed near Sublimity, Oregon, named for its raccoon population. Leonard T. Phillips, the tenth child of the eleven children of Riley Polk and Abigail Rice Phillips, then 35 years of age, still resided with his parents. An Albino with an immense crop of bright white hair, he could see little through great thick spectacles. His eyes lacked the heavy pigmentation that surrounds the normal pupil and light diffused in uncontrollably. His poor vision led to poor progress in school. The school he attended was a one-room, one-teacher affair of perhaps fifteen students altogether. Some of them were his own brothers and sisters. He was big and strong but painfully shy in childhood. He succeeded in passing "The Fifth Reader" in his formal schooling but four of his sisters became school teachers and another became a city librarian. They understood that behind the visual and emotional handicaps there resided an intellectual giant. To read, his nose rubbed the paper and his head shook as his eyes danced rapidly forth and back over a narrow interval that inched slowly along line by line. When the reading became particularly difficult, his glasses were shoved up to hang as though discarded in his bramblebush of hair and the paper was brought still closer to his eyes. Despite Leonard's handicaps and with his sisters' help he learned to play the pedal organ, the violin, the country fiddle, the banjo, guitar and harmonica with such power and perfection that he was always in demand to play. He provided instrumental and vocal music for any party, picnic, dance, or rally within miles of his parents' farm. This tremendous demand for his musical services forced him out of his childhood shyness to some extent but he remained a gentle recluse all of his life. His memory was astounding. He could read an epic poem once and recite great portions of it from memory long after. Once, when challenged, he is reported to have recited all of "Snowbound" flawlessly. I can still recall with overwhelming nostalgia his whiskey baritone sweetly reciting "Lady of the Lake" to violin music of his own making. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 99 9-15-91 12:09pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Old AE 2 of 6 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In the 'teens of 1900, Leonard Phillips added popular science to his reading. In 1922 or 1923 he built one of the first (quite possibly the very first) radios in Oregon. That radio's appetite for electricity could be satisfied only briefly by "Hot Shot" batteries. These batteries were of the dry-cell type. They were expensive and the radio played (for a gathering) at any time a transmitter was "on the air." Visitors coming from afar to hear the radio brought news of neighbors who had purchased electric plants. That news was electrifying! An electric plant would make possible another, much more powerful radio. Installed in 1925 or 1926, all that I now recall of the electric plant, a Delco, was a small shed full of glass-shelled batteries. These batteries were charged by a generator driven by a small one-cylinder engine. When running, the engine continued to run until one battery equipped with a hydrometer was fully charged. The rising hydrometer at that point tripped a switch to open the generator charging circuit and shut the engine down. As the battery bank discharged into the continuing load, the same hydrometer fell to a lower limit closing a switch that recoupled the batteries to the engine's generator. The generator, now acting as a motor, used some of the remaining stored power of the batteries to crank, and thus restart, the engine. There were flaws in the system. If the engine stopped because it was out of fuel, the hydrometer would ultimately tell it to restart. Without fuel it couldn't start and the fruitless cranking rapidly depleted the remaining energy of the battery bank. Then, in the dark (always in the dark because that's when the engine ran most of the time), in a rainstorm, or fresh snowfall it was necessary to visit the shed with a coal oil lantern, refill the tank and hand crank the stubborn engine back to life. This flaw, and others leading to frequent shutdowns, led Leonard Phillips to build an overshot waterwheel of the old-mill type on the North Fork of Mill Creek just upstream from Coonhollow Falls. That waterwheel drove a Dodge automobile generator revised by him to produce 32 Volts DC for replacement of the engine, really as a supplement to the engine charging the battery bank. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 100 9-15-91 12:10pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Old AE 3 of 6 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ By 1928, the date of the beginning of this anecdote, the precursors of today's electric appliances were reaching rural American in 32-volt DC versions for use with Delco plants. Curling irons, waffle irons, electric irons for the laundry, electric washing machines, electric outdoor lights, sewing machines, electrically driven grain mills, and other devices such as the electrically driven cream separator and chick hatcher, soon passed from the status of luxury or curiosity items to the status of necessities. The combined efforts of the old-mill style waterwheel and the engine could not satisfy the load. Improvement was needed! The North Fork of Mill Creek, originating a mile or two upstream from Riley Polk Phillip's place, drops gently about 30 feet in elevation as it crosses that farm and then drops abruptly an additional 30 feet at Coonhollow Falls just before it leaves the farm. A modest stream of 50 or 60 gallons per minute in mid-August, it is a raging torrent of 100 second-feet in March as the snows melt and spring rains fall. Uncle Len had by this time, and with the help of his sisters, acquired quite a library on the emerging technology of electricity. He owned a complete set of that early authority, The Hawkins Electrical Handbook Series. Tacky tomes all, they promised the greatest of revelations, new comfort and other advances all through the good offices of electricity. He also now knew about waterwheels other than the old-mill type and correctly concluded that he could utilize a Pelton wheel beneath the falls. With characteristic directness, he felled two tall fir trees of 20-inch diameter at a point some distance above the falls and dragged them by horse team downstream and over the falls so that their butts lodged twenty feet from the face of the falls while their tops rested on the crest of the falls. With a hand axe he clambered up and down these logs or trunks chopping away limbs and peeling off the bark. With the two trunks lying about 4 feet apart, he nailed short 2 x 4 timbers across both, creating a gaint ladder with 2 x 4 rungs at one-foot intervals. Searching for pipe to lead the water down the ladder to the waterwheel he learned that the city of Oregon City was replacing all of its wooden water mains with new cast iron mains. He acquired, free, several lengths of these old wooden mains, redwood stave tubes spirally bound by steel wire, of about one-foot diameter and used them to lead the water from a small dam above the falls (a dam just deep enough to cover the entrance to the pipe--a feature that provided nearly steady flow and fixed head since the excess simply ran over the top of the dam) downstream to the crest of the falls thence down the gaint ladder to a nozzle of about 2-inch diameter delivering water to the wheel. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 101 9-15-91 12:11pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Old Ae 4 of 6 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ This much of the project completed by a person blind by today's legal standards. This is enough to inspire the title of this tale but there is much still to relate. Unable to buy a Pelton (impulse) turbine, Leonard built his own. To build it, he started with a worn-out 4-cylinder engine from an early automobile or tractor. This engine had a huge flywheel 2 feet in diameter with a face width of 4 inches and a rim thickness of at least 1 inch. He removed the pistons and head from the engine, placed the engine upside down upon the ground and poured a fair sized pad of concrete around it; the head bolt studs and nuts served to anchor the engine block to the concrete. He then cut 4-inch long segments of U channel from an old automobile frame and bolted these to the flywheel. Note that he did not have one of today's marvelous electric hand drills. All of these holes through the rim of the flywheel he drilled laboriously with a hand brace and bit. The engine's oil pan he left in place to protect the crank and bearings of the engine. He filled the cylinders and crank space with enough oil so that the crank splashed into this oil, the splashed oil serving to keep filled small pockets he'd provided above each bearing and which by virtue of small drilled passages continuously fed oil to each bearing. On the end of the crankshaft opposite from the flywheel, he mounted a large flat-belt pulley which drove a smaller pulley on the intermediate shaft. A large two-groove V-belt pulley on the opposite end of the intermediate shaft then drove the small double V-groove pulley on the generator. This arrangement served to step up the speed of the generator above that of the turbine wheel. Total hydraulic head on the turbine nozzle was perhaps 35 feet with a resultant nozzle water velocity of approximately 47 fps. This nozzle velocity required a bucket velocity on the turbine of 24 fps for maximum power extraction. To provide a 24 fps bucket velocity on a wheel of 2-foot diameter required 230 rpm. The belts and pulleys increased this speed to nearly 2000 rpm from the generator, an increase of approximately 9 to 1 or 3 to 1 in each of the pulley sets. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 102 9-15-91 12:11pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Old AE 5 of 6 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ The generator, its particulars now long lost, had an output of perhaps 2 or 3 kW. and was contrived by him with typical ingenuity. He revised or rewound a 110-volt industrial DC motor to function as a generator producing 32 volts DC. The Dodge automobile generator from the old overshot wheel plant upstream returned to service. Driven by another set of pulleys from the intermediate shaft, it now furnished exciter current for the big new generator. We might wonder why he'd not purchased an appropriate generator to begin with but his parents farm was never productive of much but progeny and the great depression of 1929 had now struck. The 110-volt DC motor he'd started with had gone to the junkyard with many others as the early DC electrical utility systems gave way to 60-cycle AC systems. He needed 32 volts DC to avoid replacement of all of his electrical appliances and lights previously driven by the Delco plant. The resulting system served the farm from 1930 to 1947. In 1947 the REA completed the last leg of a power line whose construction had started before World War II but had not yet reached the upper end of Coonhollow when the war's demand for copper stopped its progress. Other than the human energy of its builder, the system had cost nothing; a capital outlay of perhaps $100. It ran with but few outages for 17 years. The system had its shortcomings, of course. On one occasion it was stopped by the body of a large water rodent lodged in the turbine nozzle. In 1935 it was shut down for two or three weeks by ice formed in an unusually tough winter. Controls were rudimentary. A steel wire, running from a lever and notched sector mounted on a porch post at the house, passed over pulleys on his power line poles to a head gate at the dam for start up and shut down. A Big rheostat at the power house permitted manual adjustment of exciter current and system voltage. A trembly voltmeter and ammeter on the back porch at the house displayed the system performance. Generator regulation was so poor that when a significant part of the load was removed, the voltage would rise to such an extent that all remaining lamps burned out. To prevent the unwise from causing such a catastrophe, he simply removed or disabled enough light switches so that a stabilizing base load remained "on" at all times. This led to the making of new acquaintances as strangers of good intent stopped to inform him that his Delco plant was still "on" in broad daylight! --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 103 9-15-91 12:12pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Old AE 6 of 6 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ During most summers the creek flow would dwindle to the point that the penstock could no longer be kept full. When this happened, the "head" on the turbine could no longer maintain the required generator speed and a month or more of shutdown was imposed. Fortunately, these shutdowns coincided with the summer's long days when less evening illumination was required. He found too that he could postpone the summer shutdowns by inserting a smaller nozzle inside the regular nozzle at the turbine. The result of this nozzle reduction was to keep the penstock full at a lower flow rate. A full penstock provided the head necessary for normal water velocity at the turbine. The turbine and generator could thus run at the required speed but the load it could serve was reduced to one or two lamps and the radio. The first good rain of the fall was cause for celebration as the lights went on again all over the farm. If we were to reckon the benefits of the plant at today's energy prices, we might conclude that it had earned (.05$/kW./Hr.) (2kW output) (10 months operation per year) (720 Hrs./Mo.) (17 years) =$12,240. This is not a great deal of money by today's standards but it was a fine return on the original $100. It also earned for him a small place in the history of Coonhollow and monumental stature in the eyes of one of his nephews. Courtesy of and Copyright by Home Power Magazine POB 130 Hornbrook CA 96044, Issue #3, 1989 --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 104 9-15-91 3:57pm Area: Home Power From: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: 44 Cell Panels Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Conspiricy? What? Neither you nor what you post idicates anything about conspiricy? HuH? ............................. Well anyway, about the panels..and installations..the statement I am making is simply that many installations have excessive hardware. Hardware that is sold to gullible public for money that could be used to (for example) buy larger guage wire. Again, voltage regulators on small systems are a waste of power and money. Diodes on small systems are similarly a waste of power and money. Both are a source of poor connections, which we discussed earlier. --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 105 9-15-91 4:07pm Area: Home Power From: Terry Olsen To: Jim Dunmyer Re: wind generator Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ JD>I have had several machines that used HydroStatic drives JD>(which is what you're describing). Their advantage is JD>flexibility: The drive line is much simpler from a mechanical JD>standpoint, and the speed control of the driven element while JD>having a constant-speed power source is great. However, JD>efficiency is not their strong suit. You pay dearly in heat JD>(read: power) loss for this flexibility. Mind you, it's a JD>small price to pay when you need that flexibility, but it JD>wouldn't be too nice for a wind system. Are you saying - the output of a hydrostatic drive is a shaft turning at a constant speed while the input is (from windmill) is varying? And of course you mention power loss. This seems to be what you are saying. So can you field these two questions? 1.How much power loss, more or less..50% - 75% - 80% ?? and 2.For an input shaft speed of 100 RPM + or - 50 RPM then what would the output shaft speed of a hydrostatic (motor)(drive)(coupler) be and how much would it vary? Could we get within a percent or two of a steady shaft speed, even though the shaft had a varing load on it? --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 106 9-16-91 09:15am Area: Home Power From: Tom Keller To: Terry Olsen Re: 44 Cell Panels Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ On the other hand, Terry, as Don points out, if you have to feed power down a 300 ft deep well, you have an irreducible 600 feet of conductor to deal with. Given that well casings are generally limited in diameter, and there has to be room for the water pipe, the conductor, and air, accepting a voltage loss may be inescapable, thereby making the 44 cell panels a necessity. Since this is what the original article stated in the first place, that there are OCCASIONS where I2R losses will simply have to be accepted, I fail to comprehend the vitriol of your original post, or the nature of your second post, on this subject. Also keep in mind that the minimalist approach is really only appropriate here for people who have sufficient technical expertise to understand their installation, and to properly manage it in a manual fashion. For many people who haven't the technical background, the additional expense and small loss in efficiency may make it possible for them to use AE, where otherwise they couldn't. Seems like a reasonable trade-off to me. You, Don and I could probably manage a PV system without the niceties on a manual basis forever with little strain. Could my mother? I doubt it. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 107 9-14-91 1:36pm Area: Home Power From: Byron Arnao To: All Re: Refillable Batteries Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Recently on one of technology show on TDC (either beyond 2000 or such) there was a feature about batteries that could be refilled. This sounds like the answer to todays most pressing problems with electric cars ... is it? It would seem that if such a battery were avialable that you could drive up to your local filling station have your "battery fluid" replaced with some new "charged fluid". Does anyone have additional information on this. --- D'Bridge 1.30/002762 * Origin: EarthNet Environmental Information Service. (1:107/215) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 108 9-14-91 11:14pm Area: Home Power From: Scott Parks To: Don Kulha Re: Progress/Mini-Vacation Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In a msg to All <01 Sep 1991 10:05>, Don Kulha wrote: DK> clearing my shop to make room to screen-print some t-shirts and DK> doing some research on a tracking concentrating solar-thermal $14.95 ... Home Power Echo T-Shirts. $1495.00 ... concurrently --- Msged/Q 1.52/b * Origin: The HELIX | NW Environment | HST*DS | (206)782-3365 (1:343/74) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 109 9-17-91 07:32am Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Byron Arnao Re: Refillable Batteries Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Recently on one of technology show on TDC (either beyond > 2000 or such) > there was a feature about batteries that could be refilled. > This > sounds like the answer to todays most pressing problems with > electric > cars ... is it? > I know of a couple companies working on this, including Luz International in Los Angeles. My feeling is that I hope it doesn't come down to that. Nobody likes to have to visit the service station and I'd like to see them be extinct. Certainly as long as their are vehicles they'll have to be serviced but I see "refilling" stations as an additional source of pollutants and potential chemical spills. I want batteries to be totally sealed until they are removed from the vehicle to be rebuilt or recycled. Nissan's recent announcement of a vehicle with 100 mile range that accepts a full charge in 30 minutes or a 60% charge in 15 minutes is more to my liking. It's still experimental but might see the market in 2 years.....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 110 9-17-91 07:43am Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Scott Parks Re: Progress/Mini-Vacation Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > > DK> clearing my shop to make room to screen-print some > t-shirts and > > $14.95 ... Home Power Echo T-Shirts. > Naw, It's not in the cards at this time. It might not be a bad idea to help me defer costs but it'll have to wait until after I print some for my BBS and satisfy my regular customers. I will be printing some for my friends at Home Power magazine but those will be available only through them. At this point all good durable screen printing inks for textiles require a lot of heat to properly cure them so they're washable. One of these days I hope to build a solar dryer for them so I can do without using the 1500 watt dryer I currently use. Should be very doable.....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 111 9-17-91 08:17am Area: Home Power From: Tom Keller To: Byron Arnao Re: Refillable Batteries Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I am not familiar with all of the technologies that fall into this category, but the "aluminum-air" cell was one. If you want to learn more about it, go to Toys-R(backwards)-Us. They sell a small science project that includes an aluminum-air cell experiment. It is less than $10. I suspect (consiparcy theories?) that like many technologies which have been developed that might have freed us from the burning of petroleum products for fuel, this one was bought and buried by the petroleum industry. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 112 9-17-91 1:20pm Area: Home Power From: Tom Keller To: ALL Re: AE vendor Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I have come across the following. I have no connection with this organization,except as a recipient of their catalogs: Dallas Enterprises P.O. Box 360851 Milpitas, CA 95036 1-800-345-4913 On the front page of their most recent catalog (received today) is a blurb for the following: Solar City Fair 1991 in Downtown San Jose Saturday, October 15, 1991 Dallas Enterprises will be at booth #27. You might call them at (408) 294-5848 for more information on this AE exhibit/fair. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 113 9-17-91 03:27am Area: Home Power From: Terry Olsen To: Tom Keller Re: 44 Cell Panels Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ TK> Also keep in mind that the minimalist approach is really TK>only appropriate here for people who have sufficient TK>technical expertise to understand their installation, and to TK>properly manage it in a manual fashion. For many people who TK>haven't the technical background, the additional expense and TK>small loss in efficiency may make it possible for them to use TK>AE, where otherwise they couldn't. Seems like a reasonable TK>trade-off to me. Isn't that always the way of it . . people pay for technical expertise? By the way...what public office will you be running for? --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 114 9-17-91 03:30am Area: Home Power From: Terry Olsen To: Tom Keller Re: wind generator Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ TK>Efficiency is, to put it politely, not the strong point here. TK> TK> Hydrostatic motors are used where large quantities of Exactly my question, almost exacly as I asked it! How efficient is a typical hydrostatic motor/converter ? 10% losses? 50%?? --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 115 9-17-91 03:49am Area: Home Power From: Terry Olsen To: Tom Keller Re: 44 Cell Panels Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I got a catalogue today that has some reconditioned panels from a solor power plant. $499 each, 100 watts guarenteed. Nice ! --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 116 9-19-91 08:44am Area: Home Power From: Tom Keller To: Terry Olsen Re: 44 Cell Panels Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I assume by your comment that you found my reply to you "smarmy." I considered a statement of reasonable compromise. Many people have neither the inclination and/or the interest in becoming sufficiently knowldegable about technical matters to make the manual operation of an AE system feasible. "Blue Skying" about how wonderful things would be "if only" is a waste of time, energy and bandwidth. Focusing on the doable, by taking into account the realities of people's behaviour will, in the long term (as well as the short term, IMNSHO) garner better, longer lasting results. The goal is to reduce the dependency upon centralized energy sources, as well as to reduce the environmental impact of the generation and distribution of that energy. If a small reduction in the THEORETICALLY POSSIBLE efficiency of AE systems can or will result in a substantial increase in the number of people willing to install and utilize such systems, why quibble? --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 117 9-19-91 08:49am Area: Home Power From: Tom Keller To: Terry Olsen Re: wind generator Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Based on what I know about hydrostatic drives (which is, admittedly, very little) I would guess that the efficiencies are much closer to the 40-50% range than to the 80-90% range. I am in reference to the actual power input, as opposed to the theoretical power available form the prime energyÿ source here. I wish I had the time to go to the library any look this one up for you (and me), but I really don't. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 118 9-19-91 08:52am Area: Home Power From: Tom Keller To: Terry Olsen Re: wind generator Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Again, the speed of a hydrostatic is directly related to the volume of fluid/unit of time flowing through the motor. Speed REGULATION is accomplished by controlling flow rates. This involves restriction of fluid flow (which is accomplished by the introduction of some form of resistance). FLEXIBILITY of speed control is available. I don't believe that accuracy is a strong point. You apparently misconstrued an earlier message. Hydrostatic motors are ill-suited to AE applications. If you want to move a bulldozer, you want a hydrostatic motor. If you want to turn a generator, you don't. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 119 9-19-91 10:16pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Tom Keller Re: 44 Cell Panels Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > $5/watt, eh? (OK, OK, $4.99/watt! *SHEESH*) (-: > > Well, I suppose it beats the hell out of the retail > pricing of new panels, but it is still WAY too expensive, in > my opinion. > > I see no valid reason for PV panels to be so expensive. > The technology is established, the initial development costs > of have more than been recouped. > The usual "discount" price on PV's is about $6 a watt ($300 for a 50w panel). I have seen deals on used ones as low as $2.14 but they looked kinda grim. I heard an interview with the head of Siemens Solar R&D who said that for single crystal silicon panels the price might drop 10-20% at some point when the market expands but that was about it. There are some technical developments coming out which seem to indicate $2-3 a watt withing 5 years using other technologies about about the same 12-14% efficency. Amophous PV's are cheap but degrade too fast with use. Efficencies in manufacture (economies of scale, etc.) aren't gonna drive the price down far. It's going to take some subtstanially different technology to do it (....like steam)(grin). DCK P.S.-Went and checked the PO box and the ltest issue of Real Goods Catalog had arrived. They are selling some used panels (ARCO) which sell for $450 per set of 4 (to get enough voltage for battery charging). Each 4 module set puts out 100w so that's $4.50/watt. I think in quantity they come down to $4.30/watt....not too bad. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 120 9-19-91 10:22pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Joel Kerr Re: Many Thanks! Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Hi Joel.....Many thanks for sending the data on concentrator mirrors. I think it will be tremendously helpful. Haven't had a chance to sift through it all yet but there are some gems there. I am curious as to the source for the scientific paper. It looks very good and I may want to look up some of the stuff in other chapters they allude to. There are some great librarys in Nor Cal and I'm usually able to find about anything. Again, Thanks... DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 121 9-19-91 10:33pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: The Bookworm arises Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ The last few days I've been immersed in study. First at the Patent library doing a search, at then at the Cal Berkley Engineering library and our local one. After that I'm trying to assimilate the volumes of data I got, understand it, and follow up the hints and specifics.I was doing research on this solar-thermal steam project I've got in mind and found a wealth of info. It also generated a wealth of new questions and avenues of needed investigation. Oh well, you win some and you win some, but nobody ever said winning was easy. I'm trying hard to track down the most efficient configuration of the turbine we intend to build and it hasn't been easy. I expect to get some information in the next week which will shed some light on it. The basic question delaying our actually building a turbine is our rotor configuration. To get high efficency it looks very important to keep flow in the disc region laminar and I'm trying to come to grips with that and what it means. Another minor complication is a growing realization (as our steam power research progresses) that to gain efficency we probably need to run a second turbine stage running off the reheated exhaust of the first stage with it's exhaust in turn routed to a heat exchanger to heat feed water. I'm beginning to understand the cycles used in steam energy systems. What I haven't been able to find is a good comprehensive explanation of steam power systems. If anyone can refer me to one it would be appreciated. Our research has indicated possible turbine efficencies greater than 50% which will make this doable if all the other balls can be juggled correctly. I'll keep you posted.....DCK P.S.-The efficencies for these disk turbines when built in a simple configuration and used was water pumps is in the 20%-25% range. I don't know how that compares to the Francis type turbines for hydropower but I'd imagine it's close. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 122 9-16-91 10:02pm Area: Home Power From: Joel Kerr To: Don Kuhla Re: "care package" Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ hi there don did u get he package i sent to u? if further info is required please leave a message. Joel Kerr --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 123 9-18-91 5:49pm Area: Home Power From: Rich Jensen To: Don Kulha Re: Hydro Power Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In a message to Rich Jensen <09-11-91 23:00> Don Kulha wrote: DK> > I know I saw a special on Tesla on PBS, and the pump DK> > was similar was demonstrated using a small gas engine. DK> the pump you saw on PBS (I really wish I'd seen that), C.R. I may be able to track that one down... I will have to look into it. DK> building all these Tesla style pumps, most likely including DK> the pump you saw on PBS (I really wish I'd seen that), C.R. DK> Possell, called me out of the blue today! I wasn't home Wow! People are actually building and using them commercially? I would like to look at that catalogue... would you pass along their address? Thanks, Rich --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 124 9-18-91 5:55pm Area: Home Power From: Rich Jensen To: Jim Dunmyer Re: wind generator Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In a message to Rich Jensen <09-10-91 20:32> Jim Dunmyer wrote: JD> > Has anyone ever done any research where a hydralic pump JD> > is mounted to the prop shaft? I know this may introduce JD> Hydraulic systems use "accumulators" which are far more JD> than just a pressure tank, and insignificant amounts of JD> energy can be stored practically in an accumulator. Oh well... I thought it was a good idea.... JD> I have had several machines that used HydroStatic drives JD> (which is what you're describing). Their advantage is JD> flexibility: The drive line is much simpler from a JD> mechanical standpoint, and the speed control of the driven JD> element while having a constant-speed power source is JD> great. However, efficiency is not their strong suit. You Then, it does not sound like it would be applicable to a wind system; the last thing you need is a unit which absorbs the little energy might be available from the gusts, and wastes it the rest of the time... See ya, Rich --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 125 9-18-91 6:00pm Area: Home Power From: Rich Jensen To: Gale Barrows Re: wind generator Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In a message to Rich Jensen <09-14-91 15:59> Gale Barrows wrote: GB> Some of the old wind generators from the 1930's and 1940's GB> when they were popular and common used a variable pitch GB> blade that helped maintain a constant blade speed. The GB> mechanism was fairly complicated yet simple once you GB> understood it. It seems that many of todays makers are GB> attempting to re-invent the wheel with their designs. In Well, re-inventing the wheel is a pretty popular idea these days!!! It seems you can take anything and make it complicated... I would think it would be possible to come up with a simple variable pitch control based on a set of fly-weights which would be simple to make and to understand... Look at how simple the mechanical advance section of an automotive distributor actually is once you understand how it works... See ya, Rich --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 126 9-19-91 07:55am Area: Home Power From: Bob Campbell To: Terry Olsen Re: 44 Cell Panels Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > I got a catalogue today that has some > reconditioned panels from > a solor power plant. $499 each, 100 watts > guarenteed. Nice ! What's the Name and Number? --- OPMED 3.00 * Origin: Flashpoint, Dive Safely - First Time, Feet First . (1:119/911.1) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 127 9-19-91 08:23am Area: Home Power From: Bob Campbell To: All Re: Solar for Cooler Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I cool my house with a 1/2 HP cooler. During the On Peak Hours between Noon and 6 PM I pay $0.33 per KWH. This is when I need the cooler the most and also when I receive the most potential photo-voltaic energy. How much would it cost to build a solar panel system specifically for this one 1/2 HP cooler? I assume that a battery storage and voltage converter would still be required even though I mainly want to use the electricity during the time that the sun is available. But if there are other alternatives I'd be open to them too. --- OPMED 3.00 * Origin: Flashpoint, Dive Safely - First Time, Feet First . (1:119/911.1) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 129 9-27-91 12:11pm Area: Home Power From: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: Solar for Cooler Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ DK> I ran across an interesting possibility for you today DK>while looking in a motor catalog (Grainger). They had a DK>couple pages of replacement evap cooler motors. The thing I DK>noticed was that many of them had 2 or 3 possible shaft DK>speeds. If yours is a single speed this may help. Their 1/3 DK>horse motor used that much at 1725 pevolutions but at it's DK>lower speed setting (1140 revs) it only used 1/8th DK>horsepower. The difference is 250 watts/hr on high or about DK>95 watts/hr on low. They have 2 and 3 speed 1/2 horse motors Grainger is an excellent source of up - to - date motors. Low speed, higher speed, many types, grainger is a good source. --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 130 9-28-91 07:35am Area: Home Power From: Tom Keller To: Terry Olsen Re: Solar for Cooler Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Grainger also has people in-house who can and will assist you in making a selection. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 131 9-28-91 11:06pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Joel Kerr Re: Many Thanks! Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Joel....Would find the Suntwist data very interesting if you run across it again. I may have found something similar in my research but passed it by (may have seen it at the patent library) because I was mainly looking for high efficency tracking reflectors. No big...but if you run into it again....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 132 9-28-91 11:09pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Compressed Air Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ A while back someone was pondering using stored compressed air to generate electricity. On a small scale it might not work but interestingly I ran across reference to such a beast in the magazine NASA Tech Briefs. It seems that just as some utilitys take excess power and pump water uphill to later use for generating hydro power this company is using excess power to compress air and inject it into large underground caverns to later draw it out, heat it and run it through a turbine used as a peaking facility. In it's present configuration it isn't directly applicable to the types of systems we might use to power a rural homestead and caves aren't exactly common. However, there are possibilities. If you had an excess of wind or Hydro power in the first place you might try to build a cave out of fero cement and then bury it with dirt. Another thought is to find a surplus propane tank and use it (painting it black might even eliminate some of the need to heat it later). I would be inclined to use solar to heat it prior to running it into a turbine. Then too, there's the question of a turbine but we're working on that one (grin...more later). Getting back to an old post of mine on Vortex nozzles compressed air could be used immediatly through one of these devices which takes feed air and spits out two streams of air, one cold and one hot. Refridgeration is always a consideration in our homes. It might just be easier to store the cold in well insulated thermal mass than compressed air for energy. Then too you could store the compressed air and have your refridgerator turn the flow out on and off just like it normally does it's compressor. Just a thought......DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 133 9-28-91 11:40pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Discovery Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I'm excited folks. I've always been an "enthusiast", whether it pertained to auto racing, my illogical love of many years, or any of my other interests. When you can see that there's a myriad number of possibilities in the future for growth and development and are encouraged by the discoveries that you find out about it's easy to be enthusiastic We have done pretty good here, us intelligent monkeys. Oh, there's no doubt we've made mistakes (some of which hold the potential to make us extinct) but we've come a long way to date in our quest for clean renewable energy. It's fascinating, exciting and heartening to learn of new discoveries in the field of AE and to see how far we've progressed in just the past ten years. What I keep being struck by is that there's a lot more to discover (and rediscover...) and that if we keep up the pace we've attained thusfar the future should hold much promise. I'm sure someday we'll have 40 percent efficient photovoltaics, that we'll have totally ecologically benign batteries and that super efficent tools and appliances will make AE home generation even more practical and comfortable. We're growing that future everyday it seems. I guess this is a plea, a suggestion, to keep our thinking caps on and stay open to new ideas. For every new idea that flies a hundred or more will spiral into the ground. That's always been the pace and price of progress. I've been studying the inventive process, studying the great inventers of the past and some of the great minds of the present as a means of improving my own prowess. It's been enlightening. Something that constantly strikes me is that many advances were so logical, and so seemed so simple once they became reality that I've said "why didn't I think of that" or "why did it take us this long to come up with that?". Like the kid who "invented" the decomposing golf tees made out of fertizers. Yes, by all means do keep your thinking caps on, keep experimenting, homebrewing, suceeding, failinging, learning and trying. When we do that we come up with some amazing things. This echo is here in part to encourage this so enjoy and lets get on with this future of ours. We've still got a ways to go yet........DCK Don Kulha, Moderator HOMEPOWR --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 134 9-30-91 8:55pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Bob Campbell Re: Rock Pit Cooling Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I've always liked that idea myself but I understand it isn't widely used. I've read about experimental earth covered pipe air heat exchangers but seem to recall some caveats. Something about possible problems like Legionaire's disease, or bugs of the same ilk being bred in the buried tube. Might have been ill founded too but I always wondered...... Had a home in Los Angeles which was surrounded by stone planters with sprinklers in it every so many feet and bamboo growing in them. When it got too hot you'd turn on the sprinklers which cooled the place down substainly if there was any breeze. Always liked that set-up. It was built by the builder of the hourse who was a Japanese mason.......DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 135 9-30-91 9:03pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Never know who.... Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ...You'll meet. Met an interesting fellow this afternoon names Stan. He's a supervisor for a small local water and power company with some geothermal and hydropower power assets. Offed me a tour of their installation at the geysers near here and the loan of some PG&E steam power engineering manuals to study. Should prove interesting. DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 136 9-29-91 03:59am Area: Home Power From: Terry Olsen To: Tom Keller Re: Grainger Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ TK>Grainger also has people in-house who can and will assist you TK>in TK>making a selection. TK> Yes that is true! --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 137 10-01-91 11:23pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Pumping 1 of 3 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ An Introduction to Solar Water Pumping Windy Dankoff Solar-electric (photovoltaic) pumping systems provide a welcome alternative to fuel burning generators, cumbersome windmills and hand pumps. A solar pump is alot like a windmill, which fills a tank when the energy is available. The BIG difference is that solar pumps don't slow down in summer, when winds are low. They provide the most water precisely when it is needed the most -- when the sun shines the brightest! Solar pumps are simple to install and maintain. The smallest systems can be installed by one person in a couple hours, with no experience or special equipment required. While multi-national corporations commit massive resources to developing photovoltaics, small companies and private inventors are putting PV power to use in small-scale, appropriate applications. Special water pumps required for solar use are among these innovations. Solar power differs fundamentally from conventional electric or engine-powered systems, so solar pumps often depart from the conventional. PV arrays produce DC power, rather than the AC from conventional sources. And, the power available varies with the sun's intensity. Since it costs less to store water (in tanks) than energy (in batteries) solar pumps tend to be low in power, pumping slowly through the duration of the solar day. Simple, efficient systems are the key to economical solar pumping. Special, low-power DC pumps are used without batteries or AC conversion. Modern DC motors work well at varying voltage and speed. They are more efficient than small AC motors, too. The better DC motors require maintenance (brush replacement) only after periods of 5 years or more. Most solar pumps used for small scale application (homes, small irrigation, livestock) are "positive displacement" pumps which seal water in cavities and FORCE it upward. This differs from faster, conventional CENTRIFUGAL type pumps (including jet and submersible pumps) which spin and "blow" the water up. Positive displacement pumps include piston, diaphragm, rotary vane, and pump jacks. They work best for low volumes, particularly where variable running speeds occur. Centrifugal, jet and turbine pumps are used for higher volume systems. Electronic matching devices known as Power Trackers and Linear Current Boosters allow solar pumps to start and run under low-light conditions. This permits direct use of the sun's power without bothersome storage batteries. Solar trackers may be used to aim the panels at the sun from morning to sunset, extending the useable period of sunlight. Storage tanks hold a 3-10 day supply of water, to meet demands during cloudy periods. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 138 10-01-91 11:23pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Pumping 2 of 3 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Solar pumps use surprisingly little power. They utilize high efficiency design and the long duration of the solar day, rather than power and speed, to lift the gallons required. Solar pumps are available in the power range from 1/30 to 1 1/2 horsepower. System costs range under $1000 to the tens of thousands, depending on water requirements, lift and climate. TO DESIGN A SOLAR PUMPING SYSTEM, WE ASK FOR THE FOLLOWING DATA: ¥ WELL DEPTH (or description of water source) ¥ DEPTH TO WATER SURFACE -- Does it vary? Describe ¥ YIELD OF WELL, estimate in gallons per minute ¥ TOTAL VERTICAL LIFT from WATER SURFACE to storage tank/pipe outlet ¥SIZE OF CASING (inside diameter) ¥ QUALITY OF WATER (silty, mineralized) ¥ WATER REQUIREMENTS in gallons PER DAY, ACCORDING TO SEASON ¥ APPLICATION for water: Home? Livestock? Irrigation (what kind of system)? ¥ Is PRESSURE required (home, sprinkling)? ¥ Can STORAGE TANK be located higher than point of use (easily)? ¥ Is system to be located near a home/battery? Distance? ¥ Elevation above sea level (determines suction limitations) ¥ Complex terrain? Include map or diagram ¥DESCRIBE EXISTING EQUIPMENT for pumping, distribution, storage etc. You should provide ALL this information to your supplier when requesting a solar pump design! If your well is near your home, and a battery system is present at the home, then it is usually most economical to run the pump FROM THE HOME SYSTEM. That way in summer, when you use less energy for lights, you have more to spare for pumping and need not add much to your generating capacity. A battery system allows you the options of pumping on demand (any time) to charge a pressure tank, and also the option of using a conventional AC submersible pump powered by an inverter -- a good option in some circumstances. And, storage tank requirements may be reduced or eliminated. STORAGE AND DISTRIBUTION: Homes generally require some pressure for proper water delivery. When considering using an elevated tank to provide pressure, be aware that 2.3 feet of elevation is required for every 1 PSI pressure. Conventional "Town Pressure" is 30 to 60 PSI -- over 100 feet! In most cases, it is FAR CHEAPER to obtain pressure using a DC PRESSURE (BOOSTER) PUMP charging a conventional pressure tank. The booster pump runs from the home battery system, as usage demands. Energy requirement is generally less than that supplied by one PV panel, for typical family requirements. An exposed storage tank will be subject to freezing in most parts of North America. We favor BURIED storage tanks made of food-grade polyethylene (like a giant milk jug) combined with a booster pump system. The buried tank keeps water cool in summer, and liquid in winter! The pump may be placed inside the house, even if it is a little higher than the buried tank. A plastic tank also costs much less than a steel one, and will last longer. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 139 10-01-91 11:24pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Pumping 3 of 3 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ IRRIGATION should be satisfied with gravity flow whenever possible, so energy is not spent pressurizing. Drip systems can usually operate from low pressure by gravity. Irrigation water may also be supplemented by RAIN WATER CATCHMENT and storage, to reduce pumping requirements. The author catches water from 1200 square feet of roof, stored in a 3000 gallon steel tank elevated 4 feet above the ground. This has provided 95% of the requirements for 25 new trees, for the past 3 years -- in NEW MEXICO! Rain storage is also an alternative for domestic water, using a purifier, if ground water development is too costly. For our home, we use a prototype "Hydra-Jack", a new kind of deep well DC pump. Ours draws about 3/4 GPM from a 145 foot deep well (the well only produces 1 gpm). It fills a 1200 gallon polyethylene tank that is so clean even my wife can't taste the plastic (she's very sensitive to it). A Flowlight Booster Pump provides pressure. We use about 100 gallons per day for our household of (average) 2 1/2 people. We have a clothes washer and dishwasher and an "Info" 1-gallon flush toilet. This article is vague, of necessity -- the subject matter could easily fill an entire book AND a good sized catalog. Solar pumps are utilizing many new, innovative designs and specifications are ever-changing. For more information, refer to the latest catalogs from PV suppliers, and consult a competent solar power specialist. Watch for more articles on this vital subject in future issues of Home Power. Windy Dankoff is owner/manager of Flowlight Solar Power, manufacturer of "Slowpump", "Flowlight Booster Pump" and "Flowlight Micro-Submersible" DC well pumps. You may reach Windy at PO Box 548, Santa Cruz, NM 87567 or call (505) 753-9699. Courtesy of and Copyright by Home Power Magazine POB 130, Hornbrook CA 96044 --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 140 10-01-91 6:47pm Area: Home Power From: Tom Sohre To: Don Kulha Re: The Bookworm arises Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Power Magazine is a magazine put out for people in the central station power plant business. Some time ago they put out a publication (published it in the magazine also) which gave a very good rundown of steam power systems, in simple terms. This came out about two years ago. There was also an earlier issuewhich came out sometime around 1970 that was perhaps even a bit better. I think the editorial offices are in New York City. The efficiency you queted sounds low for a modern, fully variable pitch (blades and stators) Kaplan type water turbine, but that may also depend on how you define effieciency. You may be interested to know that some time ago my father was granted a patent for a turbine similar to what yours sounds like for use in geothermal fields. At that time there was quite a bit of interest, but which he never followed up on. Also you may already know that there are some similar much earlier designs. Regards and good luck. --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 141 10-01-91 7:01pm Area: Home Power From: Tom Sohre To: Don Kulha Re: Compressed Air Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ You may be interested to know that a compressed air storage plant in the 100-200 MegaWatt range has been operating in Germany for about tem years, I think it's near a town called Huntsdorf. Also a similar plant is being built via DOE (Ithink) somewhere around Arkansas using an empty salt mine as a reservoir. It's in a similar size range, but due to the American government tendency not to use off-the-shelf components it may have a troubled startup. The major turbomachinery for instance is all pretty much prototype. These systems work by using electric motors to drive compressors and pump air underground during low load periods (night). During high load demand times this compressed air is reversed, and sent through combustors where fuel is added. The hot gas is then expanded in a gas turbine which drives a generator. Since a conventional gas turbine normally uses over half of it's power output to drive it's compressor, and the compressed air plant turbine doesn't need a compressor when it's running a turbine it makes sense to fire fuel thru a combustor. Also running at higher temperatures also markedly improves turbine efficiency. Pretty interesting plants. --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 142 10-01-91 7:11pm Area: Home Power From: Dennis Garringer To: Bob Campbell Re: Compressed Air Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Bob, I had the opportunity to work on a house in Susanvill Ca. that used the same idea. The owner designed the home with a vaulted, two story ceiling in the main living(kitchen - living room) with an air intake at the peak that would draw the heat from near the top of the room and then force it back daown into the basement into a pit that was insullated and filled with river rock. The idea was to re-use the heat to warm the home during the eavening. In addition to this she had stone wals for thermal mass around the wood stove and two south facing windows from floor to second story ceiling. It was a very comfortable and stable enviroment inside. A contractor in the area started using a variation of her idea in the homes he built, plenum homes. He would use the high ceiling to capture heat, then force the air under the home (no duct work required to floor vents) where it woud warm the entire structure. He found it to be a push cost wise compaired to conventional heating ducts, forced air, ect. Bye!! Dennis --- QuickBBS 2.66.r * Origin: Wildfire - Save the Earth... Conserve & Recycle . (1:119/911.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 143 10-02-91 12:37pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Tom Sohre Re: Turbine Efficencies Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Power Magazine is a magazine put out for people in the > central station power plant business. Some time ago they > put out a publication (published it in the magazine also) > which gave a very good rundown of steam power systems, in > simple terms. This came out about two years ago. There was > also an earlier issuewhich came out sometime around 1970 > that was perhaps even a bit better. I think the editorial > offices are in New York City. The efficiency you queted > sounds low for a modern, fully variable pitch (blades and > stators) Kaplan type water turbine, but that may also depend > on how you define effieciency. You may be interested to > know that some time ago my father was granted a patent for a > turbine similar to what yours sounds like for use in > geothermal fields. At that time there was quite a bit of > interest, but which he never followed up on. Also you may > already know that there are some similar much earlier > designs. Regards and good luck. Thanks for the tips re: Power magazine and their run down on steam power systems. I'll try and find the issues you mentioned and review them with an eye on contacting them to buy the back issues if still available. After speaking with a gent from one of our local power companies I believe the figures I quoted may have been a bit low. They also pertained to steam turbines. You probably hit the nail on the head when you said it depends on how one defines efficencies. I believe common practice in stating efficencies for steam turbines is based on "dry" clean steam input and discounts latent heat energy. If one includes the energy lost to "clean-uo" the steam and the energy losses in recondensation the figures are quite a bit lower than those published. Still, I'll readily admitt I'm a real novice in this field and may be in error. My understanding is that the efficency numbers I've got for the radial inflow designs ae based on unprocessed steam feed and include any latent heat losses. Time will bring better understanding (I hope...). I would be very interested in the design that your father has developed for geothermal conversion. Is it a radial inflow disk turbine? I would be interested in finding out the patent number and/or his name so I could search the patent office database and get a copy of the patent to study. It's a shame his idea wasn't adopted - that happens to far too many great ideas. Many thanks for your comments and thoughts. DCK P.S.-Yes, I know of several early designs for radial infow turbines, specifically those of Nicola Tesla in 1909 and C.R. Possell's in the 70's. It is not an original idea of mine which earlier posts which may not be on the system you call would have made clear. I am trying to hunt down info leading to the optimization of the design I'm working on. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 144 10-02-91 6:39pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Tom Sohre Re: Turbine Patent Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Cancel the part of my first note re: patent references. Found this today on the CASIS CD-ROM..... Patent # 4,336,039, John D. Sohre, Issued 6/22/82 for a Geothermal Turbine.... I didn't get much info since the abstract was pretty short but I'll look up the patent on microfilm at the patent library in Sunnyvale next week when I go down there to research something else. Appreciate your letting me know about it and will appreciate any furthur details you care to share especially if this is a radial inflow type turbine or is easily down-sized (I need an efficient one in the 5-10 hp, 3700-7400 watt range). Thanx Again.....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 145 10-02-91 08:01am Area: Home Power From: Bob Campbell To: Dennis Garringer Re: Compressed Air Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > comfortable and stable enviroment inside. A contractor > in the area started using a variation of her idea in > the homes he built, plenum homes. He would use the > high ceiling to capture heat, then force the air under > the home (no duct work required to floor vents) where it > woud warm the entire structure. He found it to be a > push cost wise compaired to conventional heating ducts, > forced air, ect. Bye!! Dennis I'm glad to hear someone found an economic way to do this. When I built my own house, I wanted to do something very similar, but code required that I use automatic fire vents in any duct that was more than 8' tall, to close the duct off in case of a fire. Since I needed a duct that would run from my 12 foot ceiling into the basement level, I was clearly required to use an automatic heat sensing vent. All of a sudden the cost of a simple idea became very expensive. I never pursued it because my building inspector discouraged me. I built shelves where the duct would have been and occasionally think about going ahead with the initial plan. I think it would cut 20 - 30 dollars a month off my heating bill and soon pay for itself. --- OPMED 3.00 * Origin: Flashpoint, Dive Safely - First Time, Feet First . (1:119/911.1) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 146 10-02-91 9:28pm Area: Home Power From: Dennis Garringer To: Bob Campbell Re: Compressed Air Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ When all else fails during construction, retrofit. There might be a drawback to your homeowners insurance though in case of a problem. Somethig like a sub standard code violation ? But if it was only verbal and not a written notification you might get by /? Then again with your profession.............. Maybe things have changed since then on the price of an auto senceing vent. If you would like I might be able to contact the contractor in Susanville to find out how he works around that now. Bye!! --- QuickBBS 2.66.r * Origin: Wildfire - Save the Earth... Conserve & Recycle . (1:119/911.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 147 10-03-91 6:05pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Seventh Heaven... Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ a friend brought me a wonderous thing today. Besides my interest in all forms of alternative energy I have become particularly interested in steam. My friend brought me two volumes titled "Operator Training Program, Instruction Manual, Steam Generation Department, Pacific Gas and Electric". It's about 1000 pages of text and diagrams on all facets of steam generation and utilization. Looks very interesting but I only have 2 weeks before he needs to return them from wherever he borrowed 'em. Should keep me busy (yumm....). DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 148 10-02-91 11:38pm Area: Home Power From: Joel Kerr To: Don Kulha Re: Many Thanks! Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ alright!!!! I found the stuff!!! THE SUNTWIST COMPANY P.O.BOX 342 STONE MOUNTAIN GA 30086 guys name is Richard Steenblik georgia tech copyrighted it 1981 so its in early popular science it think --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 149 10-04-91 07:20am Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Bob Campbell Re: Heat storage et all.... Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Hi Bob. I live in a rather short house so I'd never though much about grabbing heat that rose to a high ceiling and storing it in a basement or such to warm the house some overnight. I would think that a better way to use the heat you generate would be to install a ceiling fan to push the heat down so that you don't have to generate any more than you need at any given time, and then to make more heat later (at night when it's cool) and use it directly. In storing the heat you'd incur conductive losses so I'd think that optimum useage of the heat you make *when* you make it would be ideal. Now, I'm thinking of wintertime use and assuming that during the summer when there's lots of excess heat entering your home for free during the day you don't need to heat your home during the eve's but I could be wrong. What I might consider would be to build/buy some solar air heaters and dumping that energy into your basement during the winter. Even better would be to use the solar energy to make heat during the day and to use whatever heat generation means you'd normally use during the day that the solar replaces to make the heat at night. Again the idea is to minimize losses. Attached greenhouses, solariums, et all can capture and generate a tremendous amount of heat when the sun shines though they don't do diddly when it doesn't. I haven't seen any solar air heaters in any of he AE catalogs I get for a while. Sears used to have a unit that attached to your wall under a window and fed heat into your home thru the window when needed. It had no fans and used simple convection currents to move the air. I built a solar air heater as an experiment about 8 years ago which worked quite well though I had no way to plumb it into the house I was sharing. I took a sheet of plywood and put a framework of 2X4 around the edge on one side, then used a hole saw to make holes thru the plywood at diagonal corners. On the 2X4 side of this I then used 2X2's to make a framework just inside the 2X4 (half it's hieght) and also used strips of it to build a 2" high labyrinth connecting the holes on the face of the sheet. Over the 2X2's I attached some surplus aluminum sheeting, which was painted flat black and to the 2X4 frame I attached sheets of 3/16" glass as glazing. The sun shone thru the glass, heated the aluminum sheet the backside of which heated the air in the labyrinth and convection cause the air to enter thru one hole and exit out the higher one (the labyrinth was oriented with it's long legs horizontally with the path ascending). It never got used for the intended purpose just being a hack done one somewhat boring afternoon (the person I rented a room from didn't want it plumbed into the house for reasons you'll understand in a moment). Anyhow, I finished it in early evening and set it outside facing south leaned up against a tree. The next day when a finally made it outside around noon there appeared to be light smoke coming out of it! What happened is that the almost stagnant air in the collecter area in the labyrinth got very hot (uncomfortable to hold your hand over the exit hole). The wood was outgassing it's moisture giving the appearance it was about to catch fire. A small fan to move air slowly thru the labyrinth air channel would have moderated the internal temperature. In any case it was an interesting experiment, build out of scrap material laying around and it worked! --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 150 10-02-91 10:38am Area: Home Power From: Dick Gladden To: Don Kulha Re: PV usefulness Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Hello, Don: We're finally getting HOMEPOWR in El Paso, now that it's on the backbone. Nice to see you active here. Perhaps you or someone else can give me advice regarding the following proposition. My RV is equipped with 2 Arco 36 cell panels and a 105 amp Voyager (Delco) battery. This combo is useful for primitive camping (w/ evaporative cooler) here in the Southwest. Most of the year, though, it sits in the driveway and does nothing except keep the battery charged. What I'd like to do is have the PV array power my low-voltage yard lighting when the RV is out of service. For this I need a 12 volt timer/switch control. Where could one obtain such a device? P.S. These Arco panels (now 7 years old) are tough. A spring hailstorm here seriously damaged the roof of my house and RV but didn't faze them. --- VPurge [DOS] V4.09c * Origin: Micro Applications, El Paso TX, Fido-12u HST/V32b/V42b (1:381/5) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 151 10-02-91 11:39pm Area: Home Power From: Terry Ross To: All Re: Hello Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ The Church of Human dreams in New York is now carrying this conference. --- * Origin: THE GAME (1:278/701) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 152 10-05-91 09:18am Area: Home Power From: Tom Keller To: Bob Campbell Re: Compressed Air Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Automatic heat-sensing vents? What's so difficult? The vent door can br spring-loaded, and held open with a link which includes a thermally-fusible element (these are available in a variety of ratings, at inexpensive prices...check with your local fire sprinkler supply house). Simply shoose an appropriate link, and place it in the link holding open the fire-vent. When the temperature of the air flowing past the fusible link exceeds the link rating for X period of time (also selectable), *WHAM*! opne close fire-vent! Shouldn't cost more than $20-40 total to implement. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 153 10-05-91 09:21am Area: Home Power From: Tom Keller To: Don Kulha Re: Seventh Heaven... Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Don... I have a photocopier here at the house....that, a case of copier paper, and several (probably about 10) hours of standing over the copier, and we could *EACH* have permanent copies of those manuals for future reference....contact me *PLEASE*. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 154 10-05-91 8:19pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Dick Gladden Re: PV usefulness Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > > What I'd like to do is have the PV array power my > low-voltage yard > lighting when the RV is out of service. For this I need a 12 > volt > timer/switch control. Where could one obtain such a device? > Howdy Dick....Am pleased to see you folks joining us. We're having a lot of fun here (and learning a lot from one another). That's an interesting idea, using the PV's to power your yard lighting. How much power does the lighting consume per hour? Assuming you have Arco M-55s or M-58s (2 of them) rated at 53 or 48 watts/hr you probably generate 400-500 watts on the average sunny day. Most of the yard lights I've seen are in the 5-10 watt range so assuming around 10 of these your power generation is quite adequate. Real Goods in Ukiah, CA (800-762 7325) sells several things that should fill the bill. They have a 12v Programmable timer with a quartz movement and backup nicad battery that sells for $89. They also offer a couple photocell controlled lighting switches for 12v (rated at 1 amp and 7 amps) for $45 and $49 respectively. I think I'd also want some sort of low battery cut out circuit so you don't have to worry about over discharging your battery if you have a few sunless days in a row. I didn't note a stand alone unit in a quick check of a couple catalogs (they're an option on Trace inverters) but they probably know of something. One other goodie that would be nice is a load diverter which could switch the panel output to your RV's normal battery when your primary battery is full to keep it toasty warm too since you mention you use it infrequently. Not to be a parade rainer-on'er or anything but the payback in terms of dollars and cents could take a while. Assuming a consumption of .5 kWh a night at $.08 per kWh it will take a while to cover the cost of the timer. Still it would be a neat "hack" and could replace the burning of some coal gas or nuclear production. I've gone to greater legnths for less noble reasons.... > P.S. These Arco panels (now 7 years old) are tough. A spring > hailstorm > here seriously damaged the roof of my house and RV but > didn't faze > them. > A great testimonial and an interesting piece of info. Regards, Don Kulha Moderator, HOMEPOWR --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 155 10-05-91 9:01pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Terry Ross Re: Hello Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > The Church of Human dreams in New York is now carrying this > conference. > --- > * Origin: THE GAME (1:278/701) > That's excellent news Terry....Glad to have you join in the fun. I think you'll enjoy the forum we have going here! Regards, Don Kulha Moderator, HOMEPOWR --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 156 10-05-91 9:04pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Tom Keller Re: Seventh Heaven... Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ This sounds like an excellent idea Tom....Please leave me your phone number in area #6 here and we'll plan something....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 157 10-06-91 12:58am Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Home Power Magazine Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ A brief note here.....Folks local to this board may appreciate knowing that here in Sonoma County, CA, Sawyer's News on 4th street in Santa Rosa gets and has left a few copies of Home Power Magazine. They are usually in the circular rack next to the entrance to the back exit Hall or in the rack next to that (bottom section). Folks outside the area may want to know theair address. Subscriptions cost $10 per year (6 issues, usually 100 pages) and can be ordered at: Home Power Magazine POB 130 Hornbrook CA 96044 It's a great deal on a great magazine and is definitly the best spent subscription dollars I spend. Yes, in spite of our casual relationship here I pay for the magazine...Richard and Karen, the publishers are very nice down to earth folks and are far from getting rich on it. Richard does some private consulting (a lot for PG&E, a local CA utility) to make ends meet. The magazine is definitly a lobor as love for them as I'm sure you'll discover....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 158 10-06-91 10:32pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Files Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ If you wish to have the files comprising the text and pics (in ASCII text and MacPaint formats) of the first 5 issues of Home Power Magazine for your system they can be FREQed from 125/7 at HST or V.32(bis) speeds. The name to request is HOMEPOWR. It is a 450k file that expands to 1.2 meg and about 70 files and includes a FILES.BBS which is my feeble attempt at organizing the listing. Lots of great stuff here for the taking. Individuals are welcome to call and download it from area #14 or select the individual files. Downloads always allowed on first call.........DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 159 10-06-91 10:44pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: New Systems in the Echo... Re: Let us know! Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I'd appreciate it if new systems joining the fray (he echo) would post a note here to let us know you're joining in the fun. Home Power Magazine will be publishing a list of participating systems in their regular issues to steer folks in the direction of the participating BBS's. The first such list is probably in the upcoming issue which should be mailed in the next week or so. I'd like to be able to send them an update in a week or so for their next issue listing the new folks (BBS's) that have joined us here. I'll also post it in this echo in case anyone wants to refer a distant friend to a participating system. So anyway, if you haven't already, let us know you're online with us....Thanks Don Kulha, Moderator P.S.-A Hearty welcome to Texas and New York who've just joined us! --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 160 10-07-91 8:32pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Tom Sohre Re: Geothermal Turbine Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > on how you define effieciency. You may be interested to > know that some time ago my father was granted a patent for a > turbine similar to what yours sounds like for use in > geothermal fields. At that time there was quite a bit of > interest, but which he never followed up on. Also you may > already know that there are some similar much earlier > designs. Regards and good luck. > To get back to this....I went to the patent library today to get in a day of searching. While there I got a copy of your Dad's patent which is very, very interesting. Do you think he would be willing to talk about it if I wrote or called? I'm anxious to find out what sort of efficencies one might expect with clean superheated steam and if there are any other details/reports in print available. I only gave it a quick read at the library but this looks like a very elegant concept. I'm an amateur at this but it sure looks like there are some real advantages to it and the design is simply elegant. Any info will be appreciated........DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 161 10-07-91 10:52pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Interesting Patents Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I ran across a several interesting patents today while taking a break from my main search (on a tool). These were both attributed to Luz International (one via Luz Isreal). According to my search these are the only tow patents attributable to them and since they are doing amazing stuff with solar energy these might be real jewels.The first one has broad applicability....... 4,516,018 Solar sensing arrangement for use in a uniaxis solar collector, Class 250, subclass 203. This related to a electro mechanical tracking sensor to keep trough type collectors pointed at the sun for maximum efficency. It could be applied to other mechanisms too, in particular to photovoltaic panels. 4,892,142 Device and method for removing gaseous impurities from a sealed vacuum tube, Class 165, subclass 134. This could be very important to me and to anyone thinking about using evacuated tube insulated collector tubes in a design. Apparently they use palladium in their process to catalyze hydrogen which migrates thru the collector tubing walls when exposed to high heat so the tubes maintain an insulating atmosphere. If anyone is interested in these you might check with your nearest Patent Library and order order them from the Patent office, at the Dept. of Commerce in Washington ($1.50 each I think). I don't have the address handy but will post it when I scrounge it up....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 162 10-07-91 09:55am Area: Home Power From: Tom Sohre To: Don Kulha Re: Turbine Efficencies Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Re. my fathers geathermal turbine design, it's patent number 4336039 dated June 22, 1982. It's a radial inflow type device which was intednded for use in the hot geothermal brine fields around the Salton Sea in California, i.e. not much steam mostly salty water. In the end EPRI ended building a very expensive system based on a two cycle concept with a heat exchanger. The heat transfer fluid was something similar to lighter fluid, i.e. very flamable. That plant has since been shut down as far as I know. To my knowledge, there was not much work done with the concept expalined in the patent. Probably to simple for the Phd. crowd. Let me know if I can help out any further. --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 163 10-07-91 09:59am Area: Home Power From: Tom Sohre To: Don Kulha Re: Turbine Patent Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Frankly I don't see any reason why the device couldn't be downsized, although it may have to be done fairly intelligently. I'll ask my father next time we talk. As mentioned in my previous note, it is meant to handle a very dirty, muddy fluid, i.e. hot brine from low temperature geothermal wells. Any questions, drop a note. I log on here about oncve a week or so, so don't be disappointed if the response is a bit slow. --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 164 10-07-91 9:31pm Area: Home Power From: Joel Kerr To: All Re: 110VAC from a Truck Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ OK here goes I found the stach of TMEN's that I was looking for!! in Jan/Feb 1985 issue #91 page 112-113 is an article about putting an auxillary (sp?) generator in a vehicle for intermittent use. Interested parties leave an address and i will p-stat Joel Kerr --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 165 10-04-91 08:54am Area: Home Power From: Jim Dunmyer To: Dick Gladden Re: PV usefulness Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > > My RV is equipped with 2 Arco 36 cell panels > and a 105 amp Voyager > (Delco) battery. > Most of the year, though, it > sits in the driveway and does nothing except > keep the battery > charged. > > What I'd like to do is have the PV array power > my low-voltage yard > lighting when the RV is out of service. For > this I need a 12 volt > timer/switch control. Where could one obtain > such a device? > Dick, If you can't find such a device commercially, you could probably build one if you have a modicum of electronic knowlege. Radio Shack has some "Engineer's Notebooks" that have all sorts of schematics for some pretty neat devices, using their components, naturally. A simple photocell, perhaps driving a relay, would suffice for your application and be very easy to build. --- OPMED 3.00 * Origin: EchoMaster (1:234/100) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 166 10-07-91 09:03am Area: Home Power From: Bob Campbell To: Don Kulha Re: Heat storage et all.... Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Hi Bob. I live in a rather short house so I'd never > though much about grabbing heat that rose to a high > ceiling and storing it in a basement or such to warm the > house some overnight. I would think that a better way to I built my house to take advantage of the winter sun. The up stairs gets plenty warm and even gets too hot during sunnny winter days. The downstairs is burmed in on two sides and the insulation is on the outside of a 6" concrete wall for added thermal-mass and maintains a confortable temp year around with only a little additional heat from a gas wall heater. The hot air at the top of my 14' vaulted ceiling would provide nearly all the heat that I need to keep the downstairs at a comfortable temperature. But I did not have the money to accomidate the building code at the time. Actually I'm glad the building inspectors require the automatic heat sensing dampers. I'm a firefighter and appreaciate the danger that an 18 foot duct, running between floors would have offered. I only wish that my error had been caught before my construction had begun because when I found out about it later I had no extra money and had to scrap the idea. Now it will be a lot harder to retrofit, but I may still choose to do it someday. --- OPMED 3.00 * Origin: Flashpoint, Dive Safely - First Time, Feet First . (1:119/911.1) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 167 10-07-91 09:29am Area: Home Power From: Bob Campbell To: Tom Keller Re: Compressed Air Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Automatic heat-sensing vents? What's so difficult? > > fire-vent! Shouldn't cost more than $20-40 total to > implement. Somebody must have given me the wrong price. I was told about $400.00 and I needed two of them. Thanks, maybe I'll tear out the book shelves after all 8-) --- OPMED 3.00 * Origin: Flashpoint, Dive Safely - First Time, Feet First . (1:119/911.1) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 168 10-09-91 1:10pm Area: Home Power From: Tom Keller To: Joel Kerr Re: 110VAC from a Truck Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Absolutely interested! Please send a p-stat to: Tom Keller, P.O. Box 14069, Santa Rosa, CA 95402 I can re-p-stat and pass on to local folks interested (I have a photocopier in my garage) /s --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 169 10-09-91 1:13pm Area: Home Power From: Tom Keller To: Bob Campbell Re: heat-sensing vetns Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Bob, In rethinking my logic, I realize that my estimate was a tad low, though I still think it could easily be done for considerably less than $400. The vent doors should be constructed of that concrete-sheet stuff they sell for placing around wood stoves (so it is fire-proof). The duct should (ideally) be lined with the same material, though a 5/8 or 3/4" drywall liner might prove nearly as effective. Design the vent door so that gravity will pull the door shut when the fusible links separate. Interlock the mechanisms on the upper and lower doors so that if one closes, they both close. Install a latching meachanism on both vent doors, such that the doors cannot be "blown" open. This will, of course, necessitate manually re-setting the latch, but then, after a fire, that is the *LEAST* of your worries, eh? (-: I would frame the vent doors with aluminum (or steel..the advantage to aluminum is you can fabricate your frames at home with a hacksaw and some nuts&bolts, fairly inexpensively...steel, on the otherhand, would offer better life and probably better fire-resistance, but unless you happen to have a pretty complete machine shop & welding setup, it'd be expensive to pay a shop to fab them for you). --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 170 10-09-91 1:19pm Area: Home Power From: Tom Keller To: Bob Campbell Re: heat-sensing vents-addenda Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Another thought: with some careful attention to placement, you could use a light steel cable (I would think 1/8" would be more than sufficient) with multiple links in it, strategically placed around the house. Use of pulley-blocks to reduce friction would be advisable. This would permit you to have heat sensors virtually anywhere you want them. If any one link fuses, the doors drop. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 171 10-09-91 9:34pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Nicads 1 of 8 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Nickel-Cadmium Batteries by Richard Perez This begins a series of articles about nickel-cadmium (nicad) batteries. From small sealed nicads for portable use to large vented wet nicad cells for stationary storage, we're going to cover it all. There are different types of nicads, each with its own operating characteristics and applications. This is about the small nicads used in portable electrical gear. These rechargeable wonders are a good and inexpensive place to begin learning nicad technology. So why do I need to know about nicads? Well, if you now use any type of portable electrical equipment and nonrechargeable (disposable) batteries, then these nicad wonders can save you a pile of money. The use of rechargeable batteries not only makes economical sense, but environmental sense also. Imagine the material, time and energy that go into making a battery. We use it once, and then it becomes a disposal problem-- an environmental liability. Ask yourself how many AA, C or D sized flashlight batteries you have purchased over the years. Just about everyone, home power or grid person, uses flashlights, portable radios, pack around stereos, and myriad other battery eating portable gear. The nicad offers you the ability to recharge these batteries. This saves money and trips to town. In the case of home power types, we get to refill our small nicads from our larger AE systems. So instead of paying again and again for disposable batteries, we can refill our nicads using the sun, wind and water. Let's warm up on some basic nicad chemistry before getting on to the wonders that can be accomplished by inviting the small nicads into our lives and flashlights. This chemical data applies to all types of nicads, so whether you put a small cell in a flashlight or use the larger cells for home energy storage, this information is valid. The Nickel Cadmium Reaction Most of us are familiar with the lead acid reaction that stores energy in our systems. The nickel cadmium reaction is similar. It uses chemical bonding to store electricity just like the lead acid system. The major difference between these two battery types is that the nicad uses an alkaline chemical reaction rather than an acid one. The lead acid system uses an acid electrolyte, while the nicad system's electrolyte is a base. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 172 10-09-91 9:35pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Nicads 2 of 8 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ The anode (the positive pole of the cell) of a nicad is composed of nickel (Ni) and nickel oxide hydroxide (NiO[OH]). The cathode (the negative pole) of the nicad cell is made from cadmium (Cd). The electrolyte, which is a paste in the small portable cells, is a 25% to 35% solution of potassium hydroxide (KOH) in water. The chemical reaction is a basic oxidation and reduction type (REDOX). For those who speak chemistry the charge/discharge equation is below. INSERT FIG 1 In a lead acid system, the electrolyte actually participates in the cell's chemical reaction. When the lead acid battery is fully charged, its electrolyte contains about 35% sulphuric acid. When the lead acid battery is fully discharged, the electrolyte is only about 7% sulphuric acid. This change in the electrolyte makes it possible to determine the state of charge by measuring the specific gravity of the lead acid battery's electrolyte. Such is NOT the case with the nicad. The nicad's electrolyte does not participate in the cell's chemical reaction. It remains a 25 to 35% solution of potassium hydroxide regardless of the nicad cell's state of charge. The electrolyte acts as a medium for ion and electron transfer, and does not enter into chemical changes with the anode or the cathode. The lead acid reaction produces a potential difference of about 2 volts per cell. The nicad reaction is slightly less energetic and produces about 1.2 volts per cell. While a 12 VDC battery pack can be constructed of six series cells in a lead acid system, the nicad system requires 10 series cells to reach a potential of 12 VDC. Nicad Physical Construction There are two basic physical types of nicad cells. One is called "sintered plate" and the other "pocket plate". While these two types use the same chemical reactions to store energy, they differ in physical construction and performance characteristics. This article will consider the sintered plate nicads. The sintered plate technology is employed in the manufacture of the smaller cells used in portable equipment. The pocket plate technology is used in the larger cells applied in more massive, stationary storage, and will be covered in future articles. The sintered plate nicad is constructed of nickel support plates impregnated with the active materials in powdered form. Hence their name "sintered" meaning powdered. The use of powdered materials allows for easy and inexpensive manufacturing. A powder has a large surface area in relation to its mass. Powdered reactants give the sintered nicad large internal surface areas for chemical reaction and results in a cell with very low internal resistance. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 173 10-09-91 9:35pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Nicads 3 of 8 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ The internal resistance of a battery is a critical factor in its operation. Internal resistance affects the ability of the electrochemical cell to deliver current. High internal resistance makes a cell unable to deliver large amounts of current in short periods of time. High internal resistance also makes the voltage of the cell drop radically as it is loaded. In any battery, low internal resistance is a highly desirable characteristic. Low internal resistance means that the voltage of the cell will remain high eventhough it is heavily loaded. Even very small sintered plate nicads are capable of delivering very large amounts of current for short periods of time. This is why they work so well in high drain applications like motorized toys, drills, video cameras, and other applications requiring short duration, high current. The steel cased sintered plate nicad is made in a variety of sizes that correspond to the packages of regular nonrechargeable batteries. The most commonly used nicad packages are the AA, C, and D sizes. In physical dimensions, the sintered nicads are identical to the flashlight batteries of the same package. In most applications, their lower internal resistance allows their use as direct replacement for the zinc-carbon or alkaline (zinc- manganese dioxide) cells eventhough the nicads have slightly less voltage per cell. While the nonrechargeable types have voltages of about 1.5 volts per cell, they also have much higher internal resistance than the nicad. This means that under load the nonrechargeable types' voltage drops to about the same level as the nicad's under operation. Sintered Plate Nicad Capacities Figure 2 below details the electrical capacity (ampere-hours) of a variety of standard nicad packages. This figure contains information relating the nicad's package size to its electrical capacity, recharge rates, and cost. Let's just consider the capacity of the cells first. Note that there are several types of nicads made for each cell package size, more on this later. INSERT FIGURE 2 The capacity (in ampere-hours) of a standard nicad package is about 1/2 that of a nonrechargeable alkaline (zinc-magnesium dioxide) cell of the same package size. This means that when you replace a nonrechargeable type with a nicad you are trading capacity for rechargeability. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 174 10-09-91 9:36pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Nicads 4 of 8 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ A note of caution and BEWARE. Some manufacturers are making a D sized nicad that is really nothing but a C sized nicad masquerading in a D sized package. This is the honest truth and based on personal investigation. I found a D sized nicad being offered at a very cheap price. I bought two and found that inside the D sized case, there lurked a C sized battery. It took a hack saw to discover the truth of the matter. So if you're buying nicads, be sure to check the capacity of the batteries you are purchasing with the table in Figure 2. If the capacity of the batteries you are considering is much below (>15% below) that listed on the table, then beware, you are being conned on the basis of price. There are four types of nicads listed in Figure 2, standard (S), rapid charge (R), high temperature (H), and extra capacity (E). These names are pretty much self explanatory. The rapid charge nicads can be filled at C/4 to C/5 rates without damage. Note that rapid charge models are only available in the smaller sizes. This is because the larger packages have trouble getting rid of the heat that results from rapid recharging. High temperature nicads are made for operation in temperature environments between -20¡C. and 70¡C., while standard models operate from -20¡C. to 50¡C. The extra capacity nicads have about 10% greater capacity than the standard models in the same package size. The prices listed for nicads in Figure 2 are strictly average. By shopping around you may be able to get quality batteries for as much as 30% less than the prices shown. We have had very good luck recycling surplus and used nicads. Our success rate for bringing these "dead" nicads back to life is over 90%. The techniques for rejuvenating tired nicads will be in next month's article on batteries. Discharging Nicads This is simple, just use them in place of a nonrechargeable battery. The low internal resistance of the nicad causes its voltage to be very constant over the entire discharge cycle. This is disconcerting for first time nicad users. For example, when we use regular batteries in a flashlight we are used to the flashlight dimming long before the batteries are completely discharged. This dimming is due to the voltage of the regular flashlight battery dropping radically as it discharges. Nicads don't do this; their voltage remains fairly constant. This means that the flashlight doesn't dim as the nicads approach empty; it suddenly goes out as the nicads run dry. This characteristic will be noticed with all appliances powered by nicads. They will work at a constant level until the nicads suddenly poop out. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 175 10-09-91 9:36pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Nicads 5 of 8 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ The relatively constant discharge voltage of the nicads makes it very difficult to determine their state of charge by measuring their voltage. In fact, the temperature of the nicad cell has a greater affect on its voltage than its state of charge. In general, consider that a nicad is fully discharged when its voltage, under load, falls below 1.0 VDC. This 1.0 VDC level is called the nicad's "discharge cutoff voltage". A fully recharged and rested (for at least 6 hours after recharging) nicad will have an open circuit voltage of between 1.28 and 1.33 VDC. The differences in voltage between a full and an empty nicad are in the tenths of a volt. In order to make any meaningful voltage measurement of the nicad cell, an accurate digital meter with resolution in the hundredths of a volt is necessary. Individual cells from differing manufacturers will exhibit differing absolute values of voltage. Some are hotter than others. Measure the performance of the particular cells you are using to determine the exact voltage values for those particular cells. We usually just run our nicads until they are completely discharged, and then recharge them immediately. Leaving nicads to languish in a discharged state is sucking around for problems. While discharged, nicads seem to have a polarity identification crisis, they may reverse their polarity. More on this and other nicad esoterica in future articles. Nicad Longevity Well, the reason we are considering nicads is that we can refill them when they run dry. So how many times is it possible to refill the nicad? The answer is somewhere between 200 and 1,000 times. The actual number of cycles the nicad will deliver depends on two factors: the quality of the cell's manufacture and how the cell is recharged. It is the recharging of the nicad need our consideration. Recharging Small Sintered Plate Nicads The manufacturer of the nicad cell will be more than happy to sell you a charger to refill the cell. Avoid this charger like the plague. The recharging units supplied by most commercial manufacturers are designed for unattended and unintelligent recharging of the cells. It is the primary reason why most folks get only 200 refills from their nicads, rather than the 500 to 1,000 cycles possible. Ponder the manufacturer's point of view, if your nicads only last 200 cycles, then he gets to sell you some more batteries. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 176 10-09-91 9:37pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Nicads 6 of 8 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ These factory made nicad rechargers are usually powered by 120 vac. You plug them into the wall receptacle, insert the nicad in them, and come back an unspecified amount of time later to a supposedly refilled battery. Well, the fact of the matter is that in order to keep you from forgetting the battery and overcharging it (which could destroy the battery), the charger is designed not to be able to completely refill the nicads. So most factory made nicad chargers sacrifice cycle life or easy (on the user's memory) recharging. If you are powering the factory 120 vac charger with inverter supplied electricity, then the situation is even worse. The lower PEP voltage and lower ac waveform power content of most modified sine wave inverters makes the factory charger work even more poorly. The net result is that the small nicad never gets really full, gradually loses it capacity, and fails prematurely. But cheer up, we can recharge these batteries quite effectively using the DC power available in our home power system. All that is required is a little effort and attention to the process. Recharging Nicads using DC It is possible to recharge small nicads directly from the large lead acid batteries in the main system. All that is necessary is to limit the amount of current flowing through the nicad, and to limit the amount of time that the nicad is under charge. What follows here is the strict basics for recharging nicads. There are many more methods and machines to do this job that aren't in this particular article. Let's get the basics first, then we'll get fancy. The actual amount of recharging current that a nicad requires depends on its capacity. The best overall rate to recharge small nicads is the C/10 rate. This means the capacity of the battery, expressed in ampere-hours, divided by 10. For example consider a AA nicad with a capacity of 0.5 ampere-hours (500 milliampere-hours). Its capacity divided by ten is 0.05 amperes or 50 mA. This C/10 charge rate is applied to the battery for a period of 15 hours. At the end of this time, the battery is refilled. Figure 2 shows the C/10 rate for a variety of small nicads. Note that the battery is recharged for 15 hours at a C/10 rate. This is a 50% overcharge of the nicad. This overcharge assures that the nicad battery is totally full. There is no danger in this time-limited overcharge because it is current controlled. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 177 10-09-91 9:37pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Nicads 7 of 8 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Nicads are rarely recharged as single cells. They are most commonly used and recharged in packs, or combinations of cells either series or parallel wired. Nicads are assembled into packs in exactly the same manner as any other battery. See Home Power #1 for details on the series and parallel use of batteries. Figure 3 is a schematic for recharging nicads from a larger lead acid battery. The 12 VDC lead acid battery provides the charging energy. The charging current, into the nicad(s), is limited by the resistance provided by the rheostat. A rheostat is an adjustable power resistor. The ammeter measures the amount of current flowing into the small nicad(s) under charge. The voltmeter measures the voltage of the nicad(s) as they recharge. INSERT FIGURE 3 This circuit can be used to recharge a single small nicad battery. It can also be used to simultaneously recharge packs of nicads. Using a 12 VDC battery we can effectively recharge up to 6 nicad cells in series, and an unlimited number in parallel. If you are recharging nicads in parallel, use the capacity of the pack to determine the C/10 rate. The 100 ½ rheostat is effective for all nicads from AA to D sized. The 10 watt rating of the rheostat assures that it will last and not die from overheating. One source of such a rheostat is Allied Electronics, 401 East 8th Street, Fort Worth, TX 76102, or call 1-800-433-5700. Their stock number for this rheostat is 875-4012 and the cost is $11.28. Their minimum order is $25, so get together with others and order a couple at a time. The use of a rheostat allows adjustability. Its resistance can be set to provide the proper charging current for virtually any nicad combination. The rheostat is, however, more expensive than a fixed resistance power resistor. You can replace the rheostat in the above circuit with a fixed value resistor. The equation below gives the value of the resistor necessary to recharge a particular nicad pack. If you go the fixed resistor route, then you will need a different resistor for each nicad combination. INSERT FIGURE 4 Users of 24 volt systems can also use the circuit shown in Figure 3. If you have a 24 VDC battery, then double the resistance of the rheostat to 200½. In the equation detailing the fixed resistor, substitute the value 24.6 for the value 12.3 in the equation. Other than these changes to compensate for the increased voltage in 24 VDC systems, all other parameters remain the same. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 178 10-09-91 9:38pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Nicads 8 of 8 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ The advantages of using a resistor to limit charge current are simplicity and cost. It's easy and cheap. There are, however, some disadvantages to this setup. The voltage of the recharging process is not limited. If the DC voltage of the main system's lead acid battery were to rise, as when it's charged, the current flowing into the nicads will also rise. The lack of voltage limitation in this process can lead to a loss of current regulation. The resistor is also not very efficient. We are controlling current into the nicads by wasting the excess energy as heat. For those willing to monitor the meters measuring the recharging process, and to make adjustments in the recharging current, the resistor system works fine. Figure 4 is a graph showing the voltage of a single sintered plate nicad cell while it is under charge. For two cells in series multiply the voltage by two, for three series cells multiply the voltage by three, and so onÉ The information on this graph is displayed for three different charge rates: C/2, C/4, and C/10. Note that on the C/4 and C/10 recharge rates, there is a lump in the voltage curves. The nicad reaches a high point in voltage when it is full. Further recharging of the battery leads to the cell's voltage falling. The energy put into the cell after it is already full is mostly dissipated as heat. This heat warms up the nicad cell and makes its voltage drop. If you are using the resistor setup to recharge your nicads, keep an eye on the cells' voltage and you'll know when the are completely filled by watching for this lump in their voltage curve. Figure 4's information applies to nicads at around room temperature (10¡ C. to 30¡C.). Batteries hotter or colder than this will experience voltages, while under charge, that are about 10% less than those on the chart. Nicads for you and me The advantages of the nicad are obvious. We can refill them many times. In terms of savings, most nicads will pay for themselves after having been cycled less than 10 times. This means that the money you spent on the nicads would have been spent anyway on disposable batteries. So do your bit for your bank account and our environment. Stop supporting throw away technologies. If we can power our homes on the sun, then we can do the same with our portable tools and toys. Next time on nicads Next month this column will feature a 12 VDC electronic nicad recharger. This machine, called the "nicad pulsar", regulates both voltage and current. The nicad pulsar allows both unattended recharging and complete filling of the battery. It is solid state and very efficient. It is also easy to build, and we're going to supply you with all the info you need to make your own high tech recharging machine. Till then keep those batteries full! Courtesy of and Copyright by Home Power Magazine POB 130, Hornbrook CA, 96044 --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 180 10-09-91 01:26am Area: Home Power From: Dick Gladden To: Don Kulha Re: PV usefulness Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Not to be a parade rainer-on'er or anything but the > payback in terms of dollars and cents could take a while. There are only 5 low-voltage flood lights involved here, lighted for about 3-4 hours a night. Payback is not a concern... just like to get more use out of the PVs. --- VPurge [DOS] V4.09c * Origin: Micro Applications, El Paso TX, Fido-12u HST/V32b/V42b (1:381/5) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 181 10-12-91 10:17pm Area: Home Power From: Gale Barrows To: Bob Campbell Re: Compressed Air Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Now that you have your house built to code and signed off by an inspector, why not go ahead and retrofit the ducts as you want them. just don't tell the snoops !!! --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 182 10-12-91 10:23pm Area: Home Power From: Gale Barrows To: Joel Kerr Re: 110VAC from a Truck Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I would definitly be interested in the auxiliary 110 generator setup from MEN. My address is Gale Barrows, RR#1 Box 107, Custer, SD, 57730. Do you have any possible sources of generators for this use? I wonder if there is a source for the generators used on pertable power plants but minus the engine. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 183 10-12-91 10:27pm Area: Home Power From: Gale Barrows To: All Re: automobile alternator volts Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ First the question then the "bright idea" !!! What is the peak voltage put out by a normal 12 volt automobile alternater, prior to regulation. Does it exceed 24-28 volts? If the voltage exceeds 24-28 volts it would seem that you could also put a 12 volt regulator on a 24-28 volt DC line and get regulated 12 volts for 12 volt accessories and keeping a 12 volt battery charged. Ideas? I seem to remember my automotive mechanics teacher years ago telling me peak voltage was often well above the 24 volt level. If this is so it would seem to follow that the 12 volt regulator would have the ability to reduce the voltage to 12. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 184 10-13-91 10:57pm Area: Home Power From: Gale Barrows To: All Re: alternator volts Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I can't believe I goofed like I did in #310 !!! I should have remembered that a automobile voltage regulator regulates the voltage output oif the alternator instead of reducing output voltage. Ten strokes with a wet noodle and a slap on the wrist from my old automotive electrical instructor. What the hey, it was almost 20 years ago. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 185 10-14-91 8:08pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Voltage 1 of 3 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Selecting System Voltage Windy Dankoff The independent power system is based on storage batteries and direct current (DC) electric power. Batteries are low voltage modules that may be assembled in 6, 12, 24 volt or higher configurations. Voltage is the electrical "pressure" at which the system operates, and part of the battery's job is to maintain this pressure at a fairly constant level. Thus, a "12 volt" battery maintains a working voltage within the range of about 11 to 14.5 volts-- a STANDARD. A 12 volt appliance will run properly within this range of electrical pressure. While the voltage remains fairly constant, the CURRENT (measured in AMPS) varies according to the power required by the appliance. As more lights are turned on in your house, more current is drawn from your batteries. A large bulb draws more current than a small one. Some appliances draw different amounts of current at different times; a circular saw draws more current cutting 2" wood than 1/2" wood because the motor works harder. 12 volts is the most common standard for alternative energy homes only because it is already a conventional standard-- for vehicles! As we progress to higher voltages, less current (amps) is required to deliver the same amount of power (watts/horsepower). Wire, switches and other in-line components are sized according to the CURRENT they carry; the voltage has little bearing on their sizing. Therefore, a 24 volt home electric system is less costly to wire-- it requires half the wire size, and less labor to install. Control systems and inverters contain components that the current must pass through, so they too can be smaller and less expensive in a higher voltage system. To confirm this for yourself, compare prices of 12 and 24 volt charge controllers and inverters. The 24 volt models handle far more watts per dollar! Efficiencies also tend to increase with higher voltage/lower current. To see an extreme example of relative wire sizes, look under the hood of your car and see the BIG wire that goes from the battery to the starter. A typical circular saw requires as much power as your starter, but look at the LITTLE wire it uses! The saw uses 120 volts, and requires 1/10 the wire size to carry 1/10 the current. The common voltage standards for independent-powered homes are 12 VOLTS and 24 VOLTS. Your choice of standard is based on these factors: --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 186 10-14-91 8:09pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Voltage 2 of 3 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ (1) OVERALL SYSTEM SIZE: Small, cabin-size systems standardize on 12 volts, which offers the widest choice of small DC appliances and small inverters. Medium to large homes generally cost less to set up on 24 volts, for the reasons below. (2) INVERTER SIZE: Inverter requirements beyond 2,000 watts or so indicate 24 volts, for lower cost per watt and higher efficiency. (3) DC WELL PUMP OR OTHER LARGE MOTORS: Motors above 1/4 HP often necessitate use of 24 volts, whether they are DC motors or AC run by inverter. Large motors are more efficient at higher voltages. High current is required to start most motors so both wire and inverter need to be oversized. So, the potential savings are especially great in going to higher voltage for motor circuits. (4) WIRING DISTANCES: Long wire runs from PV or (especially) wind or hydro generator, to a DC well pump, or to other buildings can be very costly at low voltage/high current. The longer the distance, the larger the wire must be to reduce losses. So, cutting the current in half by using twice the voltage can cut your wire cost by nearly 75%! (5) PLANS FOR FUTURE GROWTH: If any of the above indicate a requirement for 24 volts in the FUTURE, set up for it from the start so you won't be left with obsolete equipment. If you see a need for higher DC voltage, consult your dealer. Voltage converters are available for running 12 volt equipment (such as electronics) on a 24 volt system. High quality 24 volt lights are nearly as common as 12. Many large DC motors and pumps are not available at all in 12 volts, because the lower voltage motors are less efficient and require costly, over-sized wire, breakers and switches. We do not go to 48 volts very often because we cannot get DC lights, refrigerators and well pumps at that voltage. Most PV dealers and users agree that DC power still has its place for running the specialized, super-efficient DC appliances made specifically for independent power. Direct use of DC in well-engineered appliances reduces both energy consumption and inverter requirements. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 187 10-14-91 8:09pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Voltage 3 of 3 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ We are maintaining 12 and 24 volts as our DC home standard because it is safer and less costly to use than higher DC voltages. (1) Less battery cells are required (they are 2 volts each) with less connections between them. (2) High DC voltage from batteries (120 volts) poses a serious shock hazard (twice that of 120 volts AC) and (3) high DC voltage poses more fire hazard (it causes much bigger sparks) than AC power at the same voltage. Low voltage virtually eliminates these hazards. 120 volt DC is used in industrial power systems, but generally not in homes. Our use of high-efficiency appliances and our elimination of electric heating devices keeps power consumption low so wire sizes in our DC homes need NOT be 5 or 10 times oversized for low voltage! A system dedicated to one specialized purpose need NOT conform to the common 12 or 24 volt standard. When a solar system is designed only to power a well pump (with a motor in the range of 1/2 to 1 HP) we may go to 60 or 120 volts DC if that optimizes economy and efficiency. Remember, the final product of your energy system is not volts-- it's light, water, communication, mechanical energy, etc. The voltage selected should be that which produces these ends at the lowest overall cost, with a high degree of safety and reliability. Windy Dankoff is the owner of WINDLIGHT WORKSHOP and FLOWLIGHT SOLAR PUMPS, PO Box 548, Santa Cruz, NM 87567 Courtesy of and Copyright by Home Power Magazine POB 130, Hornbrook CA 96044 (6 issues/yr/$10) --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 188 10-14-91 06:27am Area: Home Power From: James S. To: Gale Barrows Re: alternator volts Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Gail Barrows - An automobile alternator's "feedback loop" can be opened or influenced to obtain higher voltages than 12 volts. I have (years ago, so the details aren't real clear) run electric drills on alternators with open feedback, so the voltage must be close to 50 or more volts potentially. You might not want to regulate voltages over 35 volts to 12 volts using only "3-pole" regulators since that could exceed their ratings (check the individual data sheet). It is relatively simple to "float" a variable 4-pole regulator designed for the 35 volt range, up to several hundred volts, but should be optimized by an experienced technician. Perhaps the newer alternator designs don't permit opening the feedback, but it is a fact that the older ones did, available in any junk yard. --- DMG BBS v3.00 Beta * Origin: The Outland (HST/dual standard 14.4k) (1:125/180.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 189 10-15-91 3:21pm Area: Home Power From: Greg Hassen To: all Re: trim lite 12v replacement ballast Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ has anyone out there had any problems with their 12v ballast heating up and raising the circuitry on the board. It seems that when they made these things they cut costs at every corner The circuits on the back of the board seem to be made out of a material like aluminum foil and then covered this with some sort of clear resin. Very CHEAP !!! I converted a 110v flourescent 30 watt double tube f15/t8 using one of these crummy ballasts and it lasted a total of about 5 hours. I know I had all the right connections according to their schematic supplied and yet this thing put out trememdous heat. I have a 40 watt single tube trim lite and it has worked flawlessly. Can it be their replacement ballasts are of sub-standard quality ? Is there another manufacturer out there that makes better quality ballasts? --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 190 10-15-91 11:23pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Rolling Thunder Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ The latest issue of Home Power Mag, delivered into my anxious hands this eve, has a great cover shot. It's a picture of this guys hydro powerplant for his rural home....it looks like a kindy funky shack built around this honking huge hydro turbine. The title of the article is "Rolling Thunder" which may be an apt name for this beast; it's capable of putting out up to 720, kWh a day! The turbine is a horizontal axis, Francis type reaction runner, built by the Morgan Smith company. It's about 6' in diameter and 15' long with a 4" dia. output shaft. It's hooked up to a 30 kw Kato Engineering 120/240 vac alternator. Awesome....the first thing that came to mind when I saw the picture was a 'Hemi Cuda, Plymouth's old rocket sled "compact" stuffed with a 426 cu. in. motor with all the goodies. Luckily in this case the power involved cases no harm. They use it to power two rural all-electric homes and a machine shop where they build water turbines, what else? Good issue, interesting article....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 191 10-17-91 5:54pm Area: Home Power From: Tom Sohre To: Don Kulha Re: Geothermal Turbine Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I'll ta;lk to him about your interest as soon as he gets back from Europe. Anyhow, he's a consultant by trade, so you can call him anytimefor at least some free info. One thing though, that type turbine was intended for use with muddy hot geothermal brine, not clean superheated steam. It's efficiency is necessarily poor when compared with a modern conventional steam turbine. It's advantage is that a modern steam turbine would croak within seconds or minutes if someone tried to put the aforementioned brine through it. --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 193 10-19-91 12:14pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: 4-H Meeting Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ If you've noticed I've been awfully quiet for the last week or so it was because I've been getting ready for a 4-H meeting which just concluded on Solar and renewable energy. I don't know why I don't get nervous addressing a group of engineers, supervisors and division managers but fret over whether a bunch of kids aged 9-14 will enjoy our meeting. It seemed to go well though. I made up a 12 page pamphlet describing solar energy in it's many forms and how it's used. I had some pure silicon chunks, a wafer for monocrystaline silicon, some finished individual cells and a complete panel to show them. The panel was hooked up to an old 12v television showing a John Wayne movie. They were amazed by that. I also made up a crude solar oven (which fell apart when all the tape melted). We had lots of things to play with and discuss and I think the kids had fun. Now I guess I get to worry about what we'll do at the next meeting. Aargh! I think we'll be building solar box ovens so I guess I'll have to get busy scrounging the bits for those. So anyway, now I can start being a bit more participative. A few things have shown up which I'd like to share with you. Got an info packet and some reports back from SERI, some info from Prof. Rice at ASU on the turbine I've been researching, a couple new catalogs and the latest issue of Home Power which mentions our echo and gives the name and phone numbers of some of the participating systems. Talk to ya soon! DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 194 10-19-91 6:18pm Area: Home Power From: Larry Ziegler To: All Re: Batteries Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I located a deep cycle battery at a local discount house for $53.45. It sounds good to me so I'll include the description for feedback. This would be used in my motor home and recharged from either solar cells or generator. Delco Voyager deep cycle battery M27MF. BCI group size 27, terminal type TSM (top stud marine), 12 volts, 550 CCA/105 AH, 720 MCA (marine cranking amps), 12.6" long, 6.8" wide, 9.6" high. 51.8 lbs. It's listed as a RV/Marine deep cycle battery. Is this really a good deal? Thanks for any input. Larry... --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 195 10-15-91 09:17am Area: Home Power From: Bob Campbell To: Gale Barrows Re: Compressed Air Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Now that you have your house built to code and signed > off by an inspector, why not go ahead and retrofit the > ducts as you want them. just don't tell the snoops !!! This is just a bit off topic but since participants of this conference may occasionally feel compelled to do what you suggest I'd like to make a short comment about uninspected retrofits. If a fire should ever destoy your home, an investigation will be done to determine cause, and contributing factors. Something like a non approved duct, substandard wiring or an altered wood burning stove could very well give your insurance company reason to deny payment. Codes are created to protect not only you, but your community, fire fighters and the subsequent owners of your property. --- OPMED 3.00 * Origin: Flashpoint, Dive Safely - First Time, Feet First . (1:119/911.1) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 196 10-20-91 2:00pm Area: Home Power From: Tom Keller To: Bob Campbell Re: Fire Codes Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Building Codes are, in theory, created to protect the public. In practice, they are often created (and modified) to meet the marketing needs of the building industry. Example: there is no *EARTHLY* reason why a home should be REQUIRED to have a duplex outlet for electricity every 48" along each wall. This does *NOT* contribute to safety, despite the arguments to the contrary. What is DOES do is ensure the sale of considerably more wire, outlets, boxes, and much more labor for electricians. Also, enforcement is another issue. I recently wired some external circuits underneath a house being built by a friend. Despite the fact that these circuits were under the house, and fully protected, I opted to enclose them in conduit, for added protection against rodents, etc. Several duplex outlets and some lights, for working onder the house in future. The inspectro who came out had never seen Romex(tm) pulled through conduit before, and refused to approve the work, claiming it didn't meet "code." It took me *HOURS* to research the pertinent sections of the NEC, photocopy them, take them down to the Building Dep't., and get them to look at them long enough to realize that what I had done not only MET code, but EXCEEDED it considerably. the electrical code is a MINIMUM GUIDELINE, not an absilute standard. Fortunately for my friends, I was doing this as a favor to them, and didn't charge them $45/hour for the time I spent educating the numbskulls at the Building Dep;'t. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 197 10-22-91 10:59pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Bulbs 1 of 1 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Things that Work! test conducted by Richard Perez For intermittent and short duration 12 VDC lighting it's hard to beat incandescent automotive lightbulbs. These bulbs shine in locations that don't see enough use to require the more expensive 12 VDC fluorescent lights. The biggest problem with car bulbs is the sockets and fixtures. Well, meet Tom Caton. He makes a nifty adaptor that lets you use car tail lightbulbs in regular 120 vac lightbulb fixtures. And he makes these adaptors using his own homemade electricity! So why use an adaptor? In the past those of us using car lightbulbs, like tail lights and dome lights, had very little choice of fixtures and sockets. We could scrounge a socket out of the junkyard and make our own lighting fixture; it didn't look pretty but it worked and was cheap. Or we could purchase 12 VDC lighting fixtures designed for RV use, but these are generally expensive and very poorly made. Many of us have desk lamps, table lamps and floor lamps that are designed for the standard 120 vac, screw-in, incandescent lightbulb. These fixtures are well made, and can be easily modified to work on 12 VDC. The only wrinkle was the bulb's socket. We wanted to put a car lightbulb in a socket designed for the larger screw-in base. So this is why we need this adaptor. It allows us to use 12 VDC lightbulbs in fixtures designed for the larger screw-in lightbulb base. The Adaptor The adaptor is made from a standard 120 vac male lightbulb base with a bayonet style car bulb socket soldered within it. The 120 vac base screws into the regular lighting fixture and the 12 VDC bulb fits into the bayonet car socket. Very neat and simple; there is no soldering for the user. It takes more time to tell about it than it takes to install. The adaptor is well made with heavy materials and very good soldering. A truly solid state device, I'm sure that it will last much longer than I will. Conclusion It's time to get Aunt Edith's old floor lamp out of the attic and put it back to work on 12 VDC. This adaptor opens the whole world of ac incandescent lighting fixtures to the 12 VDC user. Cost of the adaptor is $5. This is inexpensive enough for a mass produced item, but consider that Tom makes every one by HAND. He uses only alternative energy for fabrication and soldering. Contact Tom Caton, Northern Lites, POB 874, Tonasket, WA 98855. Support home powered cottage industries! Courtesy of and Copyright by Home Power Magazine --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 198 10-22-91 11:00pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Sun Power 1 of 2 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ The Magic Sun Robert L. Neuileb, Ph.D. and Marilyn K. Neulieb, M.S. Barren and molten, the new planet earth first orbited the sun five to ten billion years ago. Even after the crust solidified and the depressions filled with water, this barrenness persisted. Chemical elements and simple compounds were randomly scattered on the surface. Organization of the elements into complex organic compounds was unknown. The creation of life over two billion years ago and its subsequent events have produced myriads of complex organic compounds from these scattered elements. This creation converted barrenness into living oceans, majestic forests, lush prairies, diverse and productive estuaries and lowlands; it even vegetated the deserts. Hardly a place on earth has been immune from the effects of life. The earth's surface has been transformed from dust, rock and sterile water into life-sustaining soil and seas. The randomly scattered elements of the crust have been ordered into the complex chemistry of life, the delicate petals of flowers, the human brain and numerous living organisms. Man, too, has created order as exemplified by large cities, complex transportation networks, and facilities for power generation and transmission. But man's work is usually accomplished by disorderly by-products. The barrenness of many strip mines, discussions of creating large areas of national sacrifice in the West to facilitate shale oil production, and the still-denuded mountainsides of parts of Europe which the Romans exploited for timber for ships are just a few of the expanding reminders that man's order has brought disorder. The obsolete, worn, and discarded products of man have not become the foundations of new, more complex products, but rather of junk yards, air pollution and landfills. It is said that trash is man's monument to order. Waste is an abundant product of natural systems, too. Like the works of man, all living organisms produce waste during life and eventually become waste upon death. Some forests and grasslands produce eighty-five pounds of solid waste per acre each active year. Yet nature doesn't have trash heaps. This trash becomes an integral part of present and future order. New plants grow from fallen trees which soon become soil. Thus even more life will be supported. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 199 10-22-91 11:01pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Sun Power 2 of 2 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Scientists are beginning to understand why man's attempts to create order seemingly create disorder and why attempts to correct this disorder may, in turn, create even greater disorder. The Second Law of Thermodynamics tells us precisely that net disorder will result from production and use of energy. In any system involving energy exchange, there is always created more disorder than order. The net result of production and use of energy must be the creation of disorder. Yet natural systems have seemingly repealed this law. What magic do the natural systems possess? Can man learn the secret? The magic is the sun. The natural systems have not repealed the Second Law of Thermodynamics. They simply utilize the only source of energy readily available on earth that is free of the necessity of causing disorder on earth. Oh, yes, the Second Law states more disorder than order is created through the generation and use of the energy in the natural systems. However, much of the disorder can be confined to the sun, the magic sun. Thus, net order can be created on earth. In contrast, in recent years man has concentrated primarily on earth-based energy sources. The creation of disorder, at least initially, has also occurred on the earth. This disorder, as it must, has exceeded the order created. Disorder, such as that caused by strip mining, cannot be corrected by man alone. But with proper planning, man can encourage the sun. The natural process of restoration which is driven by the sun's energy can be shortened when the topsoil is preserved and the water is protected from contamination. In essence, man cannot create net order on earth. This role is reserved for the sun. Man can only assist. The sun not only provided and continues to provide the energy for the establishment, development, maintenance and restoration of living processes; but it also provides energy to preserve the order of cycles vital to life. One such cycle is the water cycle which involves the separation of freshwater from saltwater. Many organisms, including man, depend on this separation, this creation of order. The winds driven by the sun's energy disperse this freshwater along with oxygen and carbon dioxide to living organisms around the globe. With study, ingenuity and determination, the sun's energy may serve many of our needs. Technologies to capture the winds and radiant solar energy are emerging. However, there is no assurance that the use of solar energy will create order on the earth. For millions of years, fires on prairies and forests alike have been started by lightning from sun-driven storms. The magic sun has repeatedly converted prairies and forests into a disordered scattering of ashes. The sun can work its magic for man, but it comes with no guarantees, only opportunities. Courtesy of and Copyright By Home Power Magazine --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 200 10-22-91 11:03pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Larry Ziegler Re: Batteries Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > I located a deep cycle battery at a local discount house for > $53.45. It sounds good to me so I'll include the > description for feedback. This would be used in my motor > home and recharged from either solar cells or generator. > > Delco Voyager deep cycle battery M27MF. BCI group size 27, > terminal type TSM (top stud marine), 12 volts, 550 CCA/105 > AH, 720 MCA (marine cranking amps), 12.6" long, 6.8" wide, > 9.6" high. 51.8 lbs. It's listed as a RV/Marine deep cycle > battery. Is this really a good deal? > IF it's a true deep cycle battery and a decent one it's one hell of a deal. From the above I assume it's a 105 AH battery, Group 27 form factor. Real Goods asks $95 for their Interstate 95 AH Group 27 battery. Pray tell where didja find these goodies? DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 201 10-22-91 11:07pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Tom Sohre Re: Geothermal Turbine Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > I'll ta;lk to him about your interest as soon as he gets > back from Europe. Anyhow, he's a consultant by trade, so > you can call him anytimefor at least some free info. One > thing though, that type turbine was intended for use with > muddy hot geothermal brine, not clean superheated steam. > It's efficiency is necessarily poor when compared with a > modern conventional steam turbine. It's advantage is that a > modern steam turbine would croak within seconds or minutes > if someone tried to put the aforementioned brine through it. Yes, I understand that distinction. So much energy is used and lost in cleaning up the geothermal effluent normally that it seems such a horrible waste. A power systems engineer I gave a copy of the patent papers on it to also thought it was truely inspired design. The ability to use the total effluent reliably is also one of the supposed virtues of the Tesla radial inflow disc design. I have to contact Lawrence Livermore because I've become aware of a series of tests they've done on the disc turbines courtesy of Professor Rice at ASU. I'll report on that when I get my hands on it....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 202 10-22-91 11:16pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Greg Hassen Re: trim lite 12v replacement ballast Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > sort of clear resin. Very CHEAP !!! I converted a 110v > flourescent > 30 watt double tube f15/t8 using one of these crummy ballasts > and it lasted a total of about 5 hours. I know I had all the > right connections according to their schematic supplied and > yet this thing put out trememdous heat. I have a 40 watt > single > tube trim lite and it has worked flawlessly. Can it be their > replacement ballasts are of sub-standard quality ? Is there > another manufacturer out there that makes better quality > ballasts? > I'll have to ask the facility engineering group at the lab about that. Three years ago they went through the place and replaced all the ballasts with some which were reported to be 20% more efficient. I've yet to see one replaced (out of hundreds) which speaks of quality. I know I've seen some in AE catalogs but they seemed overpriced for anyone on the grid to use. Maybe someone else has some experience with this....I'll ask about this though. DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 203 10-24-91 8:11pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Sonoma County Folks Re: Home Power Mag Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Thought I'd let the local folks know that Sawyers News on 4th street in Santa Rosa has 7 copies left of the new Home Power magazine. I think they only get a dozen or so copies so it looks like it's going fast this month....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 204 10-21-91 11:06pm Area: Home Power From: Lawrence London To: ALL Re: Windmill pump leathers Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ * Forwarded from "ECOLOGY" * Originally from Gerard O'Reilly * Originally dated 10-20-91 10:39 Perhaps this address may be of some help: Danish Ministry of Energy; Slotsholmsgade 1; DK-1216 Copenhagen K While studing the California Windpower Industry I found the Dutch and Danish most active in the field. Just write either of their Embassy and you will find a national committement by both countries! They seem to be most interested in international co-operation in this field. --- DB B1048/001938 * Origin: EARTH*Net*Home:SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ECHO*919-929-0677 (1:151/502) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 205 10-16-91 11:09pm Area: Home Power From: Lawrence London To: Don Kulha Re: Updates Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ * Forwarded from "Home Power" * Originally from Lawrence London * Originally dated 07-31-91 20:02 > I'd appreciate a note periodically if/when you add feeds > to this echo so I can publish a master access list in the > various related echos so folks know where they can link in. > Many Thanks! > Don Kulha/Moderator @ 125/7 > > --- ConfMail V3.31 > * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 > (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) > Receiving HOMEPOWR here at 151/502 in Chapel Hill, N.C., home of SUST_AG. --- FD 1.99c * Origin: EARTH*Net*Home:SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ECHO*919-929-0677 (1:151/502) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 206 10-16-91 11:10pm Area: Home Power From: Lawrence London To: ALL Re: POWER echo Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ * Forwarded from "Home Power" * Originally from Lawrence London * Originally dated 08-01-91 14:15 * Forwarded from "Echo Request" * Originally from Tom Rieger * Originally dated 07-31-91 20:41 Announcing: The formation of the POWER conference. A FidoNet echo for the operators/maintainers of power, steam and refrigeration plants. Moderated by Tom Rieger, a stationary engineer with with working experience on nuclear and conventional naval propulsion plants, oil, gas and solid fuel steam generation plants and ammonia refrigeration systems. Topics to include (but not limited to) plant safety, plant operations, plant maintenance, innovations, co-generation, solid fuel firing, ash handling, water treatment, emissions reduction, problem solving... Anything you can think of which is related to the power/refrigeration industry. Private topology until I can take it regional and eventually place it on the backbone. NetMail link-up requests to 1:260/242. --- FD 1.99c * Origin: EARTH*Net*Home:SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ECHO*919-929-0677 (1:151/502) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 207 10-16-91 11:11pm Area: Home Power From: Lawrence London To: ALL Re: Energy info. from ECIX Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ * Forwarded from "Home Power" * Originally from Lawrence London * Originally dated 09-03-91 14:28 * Forwarded from "Sustainable Agriculture" * Originally from Lawrence London * Originally dated 08-24-91 22:04 [from USENET, talk.environment newsgroup]: ------------------------------------------ Article 470 (89 more) in talk.environment: From: tgray@IGC.ORG (Tom Gray) Subject: Energy Information [long] Date: 12 Aug 91 00:14:10 GMT ENERGY INFORMATION FROM THE ENERGY AND CLIMATE INFORMATION EXCHANGE (ECIX) The Energy and Climate Information Exchange (ECIX) is a project of EcoNet aimed at educating environmental groups and the general public on the potential of energy efficiency and renewable energy to reduce the use of fossil fuels and their contribution to climate change. ECIX is supported by the Joyce Mertz-Gilmore Foundation and the Energy Foundation. As part of its mission, ECIX now offers as a public service the following electronic information files on energy technologies and issues at no cost: BIOMASS - BIOFUELS DIRECTORY: A detailed directory of the U.S. biofuels industry, listing companies and their products. Covers alcohol fuels, wood chippers, and many other technologies. Very complete. ~75k. Ask for file BMBFDIR. ELECTRIC VEHICLE NEWS NOTES: Electric vehicles are a strong contender to replace gasoline-powered vehicles because of their low emissions. The case for electric autos becomes even stronger if the electricity to power them is produced by wind, solar, or other renewable energy technologies. This file provides short news items on progress in electric vehicle R&D. Length ~5k. Ask for file EVNOTES. ENERGY EFFICIENCY ISSUE BRIEF: An "issue brief" from the Congressional Research Service of the U.S. Library of Congress that summarizes information and developments in energy efficiency. CRS issue briefs are designed to summarize information on a topic for Congressional staff. A good overview and introduction to energy efficiency issues. Length ~50k. Ask for file EECRSBRIEF. ENERGY EFFICIENCY NEWS NOTES: While the Bush Administration continues to fail to promote energy efficiency, local governments and private companies are taking the lead. This file contains short news items from trade and policy publications on utilities and municipalities that have developed innovative programs to save energy. Length ~15k. Ask for file EENOTES. ENERGY EFFICIENCY - REFRIGERATORS: Information from the Real Goods Alternative Energy Sourcebook about the Sunfrost, a highly efficient refrigerator that is commercially available. Length ~2k. Ask for file EEREFRIG. ENERGY EFFICIENCY - UTILITY PROGRAMS: A file specifically limited to electric utility efficiency programs. Length ~15k. Ask for file EEUTILPGMS. ENERGY INFORMATION I: A short file that lists several government sources for information on renewable energy and energy efficiency. Especially useful for homeonwers who wish to install solar or wind systems. Length ~2k. Ask for file NRGINFO. ENERGY INFORMATION II: A letter from the Council for Renewable Energy Education to a Polish contact detailing how renewable energy sources might help meet Poland's energy needs. Gives brief descriptions of energy technologies and sources of information on commercial products. Length ~2k. Ask for file NRGINFOIND. ENERGY POLICY - NATIONAL OFF THE GRID DAY: Real Goods Trading Corporation, a company that sells renewable energy equipment and publishes an excellent Alternative Energy Sourcebook, has designated August 10, 1991, as National Off the Grid Day and urges the American public to show its dissatisfaction with national energy policy by going off grid-supplied power for a day. File includes a discussion of the event and the text of a Declaration of Energy Independence. Length ~9k. Ask for file POLOFFGRID. ENERGY POLICY - OIL ROLLERCOASTER: This is a classic report on the U.S. energy outlook written in 1987 by Denis Hayes (later chairman of Earth Day, former director of the Solar Energy Research Institute), Chris Flavin (now Vice President for Research of Worldwatch Institute) and Jim MacKenzie (now a Senior Associate at the World Resources Institute). Among many telling comments, this report predicts an increasing likeli- hood of wars in the Mideast because of the increasing concentration of world oil supplies in that region. Published originally by the Fund for Renewable Energy and the Environment, now Renew America. Length ~70k. Ask for file OILROLLER. FUEL CELL NEWS NOTES: Fuel cells are a promising technology both for production of electricity with low emissions and for internal powering of electric vehicles. This file contains background and news items on fuel cell research. Length ~30k. Ask for file FCELLNOTES. GEOTHERMAL AQUACULTURE: Fish farming is a growing industry in the southern and western U.S., and the use of warm springs (low-temperature geothermal resources) to provide water for aquaculture is a promising new use of renewable energy. This file contains background articles from the _Geo-Heat Center Quarterly_ on geothermal aquaculture. Length ~30k. Ask for file GTAQUA. GEOTHERMAL NEWS NOTES: Geothermal (earth heat) energy is an enormous potential resource -- one that could potentially supply much or most of human energy needs. This file contains information on geothermal research and power projects. Length ~10k. Ask for file GTNOTES. GLOBAL WARMING - CARBON CONTENT OF FUELS: A short, handy list of various types of fuel (wood, natural gas, etc.) with the carbon content of each listed. Can be very helpful in learning more about the threat of global warming, in which carbon dioxide is implicated as the leading "greenhouse gas". Length 7k. Ask for file GWCNUMBERS. HYDROGEN PUBLICATIONS: Hydrogen is another potentially huge energy resource, especially if it is produced using wind, solar or other renewable energy sources. A "hydrogen society" would use hydrogen in many ways, pumping it through pipelines like natural gas to fuel automobiles, heat homes and produce electric power. When hydrogen is burned, it combines with the oxygen in the air to produce water vapor rather than the noxious emissions from fossil fuels. This file contains further sources of information on hydrogen energy. Length ~2k. Ask for file H2PUBS. HYDROPOWER ISSUES: Hydropower, the oldest and most widely used renewable energy source, is also the most controversial. Can we afford to pass up the additional amounts of clean energy this resource can provide? This file provides a variety of views on the topic. Length ~60k. Ask for file HYISSUES. OCEAN ENERGY - OCEAN THERMAL INFO: Ocean thermal energy is a renewable technology in which the temperature difference between the ocean surface and the ocean depths is used to make a working fluid circulate and generate power. While it has long-term potential, it still faces some daunting technical problems. This file is a quick summary with additional sources for further information. Length ~6k. Ask for file OEOTINFO. PHOTOVOLTAICS - TEXAS INSTRUMENTS: Photovoltaics (solar cells that convert sunlight directly into electricity) is the third energy technology (along with geothermal and solar/wind/hydrogen) that can potentially supply extremely large amounts of clean energy. Here, the primary obstacle is price, but photovoltaics are, for instance, much closer to wide commercial competitiveness than nuclear fusion. This file contains a series of articles about a breakthrough announced in April, 1991, by Texas Instruments that promises to lower PV costs. Length ~20k. Ask for file PVTI. SOCIAL COSTS - GENERAL: A file of information on efforts by groups around the world to incorporate social costs into economics (see next paragraph for an example of social costs in the energy field). Includes, for example, information about the Dutch work on developing a "Green GNP" which will include estimates of environmental degradation in official economic Gross National Product statistics. Length ~45k. Ask for file SCINFO. SOCIAL COSTS - WORLD RESOURCES PRICING PAPER: A major issue which will confront energy policymakers and regulators during the 1990s is the concept of "social costs" or "externalities" -- finding a way to make the price of a fuel, such as coal, reflect the full cost to society that its use imposes (black lung disease, acid rain, global warming). At present the cost of coal does not include these "downstream" expenses and as a result, it is one of our "cheapest" energy sources. World Resources Institute analyst James MacKenzie provides a detailed look at this issue, and explains why the Bush Administration's National Energy Strategy is flawed for failing to address it. Paper dated May 1991. Length ~60k. Ask for file SCWRI591. SOLAR HEATING - PUBLICATIONS: Resources for information on solar architecture (making best use of the sun's energy to reduce a building's energy demand), solar crop drying, and other "applications" (uses) of solar heat. ~2k. Ask for file SHPUBS. SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT - PUBLICATIONS: Sustainable energy (which would make maximum use of renewable energy and energy efficiency) is only a part of the larger issue of sustainable development -- finding ways to live with Nature as a long-term partner. This file contains resources for finding out more about the concept of sustainable development. Length ~4k. Ask for file SDPUBS. WIND ENERGY - PROSPECTS AND POTENTIAL: A detailed and still current summary of the status of wind energy technology in the U.S. from the June 1990 issue of _EPRI Journal_, the magazine of the Electric Power Research Institute. EPRI, the utility industry's research arm, feels wind is one of the most promising new electric power technologies, and this article tells why. Length ~35k. Ask for file WEEPRI690. WIND ENERGY - UTILITY ISSUES: Testimony from the American Wind Energy Association before the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC) that discusses the current status of wind technology and problems facing the wind energy industry as it attempts to enter the U.S. bulk power generation market. Length ~15k. Ask for file WEFERC690. Also, the following non-energy file has been selected for its inspirational value: SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT - CO-OP AMERICA: Would you like to learn more about how to put your dollars to work for a better society, from purchasing environmentally sound products to investing in banks and credit unions that specialize in economic development loans in low-income areas? This file contains an introductory letter on Co-op America, a national organization that advocates socially conscious investing and is on the cutting edge of sustainable development issues. Length ~12k. Ask for file SDCOOPAM. ======================= To order one or more files from the above list, send an e-mail message to: Internet, FidoNet: tgray@igc.org BITNet: tgray@igc.org OR tgray%igc.org@stanford UUCP: uunet!pyramid!cdp!tgray Please include: (1) Your name. (2) The organization, if any, with which you are affiliated. (3) Your reason for interest. ******************************************************************* Tom Gray Second Wind, Inc. EcoNet/PeaceNet: cdp:tgray {standard disclaimer applies} Internet: tgray@igc.org 7 Davis Square BITNET: tgray%igc.org@stanford Somerville, MA 02144 UUCP: uunet!pyramid!cdp!tgray (617) 776-8520 --- FD 1.99c * Origin: EARTH*Net*Home:SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ECHO*919-929-0677 (1:151/502) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 208 10-16-91 11:12pm Area: Home Power From: Lawrence London To: ALL Re: Solar Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ * Forwarded from "Home Power" * Originally from Lawrence London * Originally dated 09-03-91 14:29 * Forwarded from "Sustainable Agriculture" * Originally from Lawrence London * Originally dated 09-03-91 14:22 * Forwarded from "World Talk" * Originally from Joe DeLassus * Originally dated 09-02-91 4:30 Date Sent: Sun 1 Sep 91 04:15 Subject: BRIGHT FUTURE FOR RISING SOLAR INDUSTRY * Original dated: 27 Aug 91 08:16:00 from Nyt News to All Via NY Transfer News Service 718-448-2358, 718-448-2683 BRIGHT FUTURE FOR RISING SOLAR INDUSTRY By Linda Brubaker Ropes DENVER, Aug.26, (ENS) -- The International Solar Energy Society (ISES) stressed the link between energy and the environment at the 1991 Solar World Congress held in Denver, August 17-24. Approximately 1400 people attended the world's largest gathering of solar energy professionals in over a decade, with more than half of them from outside the United States. The Society sees solar related energy sources as able to provide the world with energy that is cheap, renewable, sustainable -- and environmentally benign. The Congress featured daily plenary and invited sessions, where over 600 technical papers were presented. In addition to stressing solar energy's role in solving environmental problems, the Congress considered such key issues as meeting the needs of utilities; increasing energy efficiency, livability and comfort of buildings; meeting the energy demands of developing countries; and solar applications in space. At the opening plenary session, Harold M. Hubbard, Spark Matsunaga Fellow in Energy and the Environment and former director of the Solar Energy Research Institute (SERI), amused the audience with a quip that solar energy has a great future and it always will have. His joke reflected the frustration of many professionals who have dedicated their careers to solar energy, only to see it continue to take a back seat of oil, gas and "king coal." Hubbard caught the mood of the Congress when he stated, "Despite its technological promise and social benefits, solar energy is still not politically accepted." He feels we must emphasize solar energy in the near future or face further degradation of the the environment. RENEWABLES INEVITABLE BUT NOT FOR 50 YEARS Although experts disagree on when the emphasis on renewable energy will occur, most agree that it is inevitable. Kurt Yeager, vice president of the Generation and Storage Division of the Electric Power Research Institute, predicted that the world will continue to rely on fossil fuels for at least the next 50 years. He also made the gloomy forecast that the global carbon emission rate will at least double over the next century. His list of impediments to the use of solar energy included: incorrect perceptions, lack of incentives, need for new planning tools, lack of cooperation, memories of past failures, an insufficient recognition of accomplishments. The accomplishments of solar energy are many. At the exhibit hall, an astonishing array of renewable-energy products were on display. Dominated by a large German display, the exhibits included everything from photovoltaic panels, to solar pumps, to pyranometers to measure solar radiation. New skylights for passive solar homes were exhibited, as well as glazed translucent windows, which contain an internal shutter adjustable to enhance heat gain and prevent heat loss. Advances in wind energy technology were amply represented as well. SOLAR COSTS UP FRONT, CONVENTIONAL COSTS HIDDEN Despite these technological advancements, high cost is a problem which still haunts the renewable-energy field. Comparative average power output costs from SERI show that coal plants with scrubbers operate at 8 to 11 cents per kilowatt hour, while photovoltaics operate at 25 to 35 cents per kilowatt hour. What these comparisons fail to take into consideration, however, are the environmental costs of energy sources. In another study, SERI found high hidden costs from environmental destruction caused by emission of pollutants during energy generation. These included reduced crop yields, health impacts, and other hidden costs. The subsidies of the United States government to energy producers, for example, is estimated at US$43.3 to US$55.2 billion dollars per year. Solar energy professionals wince at those fossil fuel subsidy figures, particularly when funding for research in renewable energy was repeatedly slashed by the Reagan administration. However, Michael Davis, assistant secretary for Conservation and Renewable Energy at the U.S. Department of Energy, characterized 1980 to 1990 as a "decade of progress," emphasizing that today's renewable-energy industry is industry driven rather than government led. Denis Hayes, president of Earth Day 1990 and chairman and CEO of Green Seal, thinks that people are feeling empowered all over the world, believing that they can effect change without government aid. He said, "Marketplace pressures are going to cause companies to change." Although ten years ago he was worried about the intrusive role of utilities, he now sees them as, "the biggest change agent in the United States today." As a way of emphasizing the link between energy and the environment, ISES paid tribute to those in the past who have lived in harmony with nature. The Society presented the Passive Pioneer Award to native Americans, thanking them for showing us how to live within our resources and for their "sense of spirituality and reverence for the earth." The award to native Americans was given at the same ceremony which honored Nobel laureate Subrahmanyan Chandrasekher with the 1991 Charles Greeley Abbot Award for his contributions to the advancement of solar energy. Honoring the ancestors of native Americans and a brilliant astrophysicist in one ceremony summed up the ecological spirit of the 1991 Solar World Congress. - 30 - Copyright (c) Environment News Service 1991 --- Qtach2 v1.07 U4 * Origin: EARTH*Net*Home:SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ECHO*919-929-0677 (1:151/502) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 209 10-16-91 11:13pm Area: Home Power From: Lawrence London To: ALL Re: New Alternative Energy/Ecology BBS online. (from Usenet, misc.rural) Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ * Forwarded from "Home Power" * Originally from Lawrence London * Originally dated 10-02-91 22:37 * Forwarded from "Sustainable Agriculture" * Originally from Lawrence London * Originally dated 10-02-91 22:36 Article 1893 (2 more) in misc.rural: From: wdean Subject: alternate energy BBS Date: 28 Sep 91 23:12:55 GMT Here is some info I received about an alternate energy BBS that just started up. Please give your support. wes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ LIONS ROAR - DANCING MAN In search of the harmless and noble way... (313) 482-0686 9600(V32), 2400, 1200, N,8,1 P.O. Box 8265, Ann Arbor, MI 48107 8am - 6pm M-F EST (other times by appointment) - An online clearing house for Alternative Energy and Ecological issues. - Access to a database of Companies, Associations, Individuals, Utilities, Political organizations, etc. Involved in; Manufacture and sale of Windmills, Solar panels, Inverters, Batteries, Electric cars, Efficient appliances; Promotion and research into recycling and conservation; Political activity in service to the earth; Local environmental enthusiasts; Power utilities involved in renewalble and clean energy technologies; etc; etc; etc. - Bulletins and News releases - Places to go and see - Extensive Glossary of terms - Group purchasing Cooperative. - Currently there are conferences setup for: WIND SOLAR BETTER CARS ALTERNATIVE FUELS NEWS FROM THE FRONT (Political and Environmental activists) COOPERATIVE GROUP PURCHASING Non registered users can access bulletins, read messages, and view file listings. Registered users have complete access to all available resources. Registration results from a donation of $24.00 which assures 12 months of complete access. This is extended by 1 month without cost each time a registered users name is used in reference by a new subscriber. The above mentioned registration can be waived for individuals who can't, won't, or contribute so much effort that they shouldn't have to.. pay it. Groups or organizations are encouraged to consider the potential for using this system as though it were their own. There is room for customization if it fits in with the overall spirit of our intentions. Groups of 10 people registering together would only need to contribute $12.00 each for 12 months. We hope to build a valuable and enduring temple/workshop to serve the reawakening of nature mind in modern man. Thanks and please check it out..., LIONS ROAR - DANCING MAN Barry McKay (sysop 09/26/91 --- FD 1.99c * Origin: EARTH*Net*Home:SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ECHO*919-929-0677 (1:151/502) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 210 10-16-91 11:15pm Area: Home Power From: Lawrence London To: ALL Re: windmill pump leathers Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ * Forwarded from "Home Power" * Originally from Lawrence London * Originally dated 10-16-91 18:47 If anyone has any information please reply either to Mr. Reyes via Kerry Miller in ECOLOGY or to me, here, and I will forward it. Thanks, L.L. * Forwarded from "ECOLOGY" * Originally from Kerry Miller * Originally dated 10-15-91 17:08 I am forwarding a request I received about windmill pump leathers, and will forward replies to Wilson Reyes. Kerry Miller 1:14/680 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=- I am interested in information about: - Mechanical properties of leather - Performed studies about leather pump seals in other countries. - Any other related studies. I am working with leather cups, specially with those used in wind mill pumps. As you know, in this field the available energy is limited, and it is very important to use it in the most efficient way. My master project is study about the leather, leather performance and leather cups in order to reduce the seal-cylinder friction forces. I have studied the manufacture processes, some properties like water absorption, friction forces, etc. My principal obstacle has been to find previous information about those topics. I would appreciate if you could help me. I'd like, for example, to get the address of an institute named American Leather Chemists Association. Up to now it has been impossible to get that information from here. Once again, thanks for your interest. Wilson A. Reyes Mechanical Engineer University of Los Andes Bogota - COLOMBIA (South America) --- * Origin: EARTH*Net*Home:SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ECHO*919-929-0677 (1:151/502) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 211 10-26-91 11:33pm Area: Home Power From: NightHawker To: All Re: Home Power Magazine..... (RE: Home Power Mag) Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ WWIVNET: Crosswinds [916-865-8462] - Node 9656 Where can you find a copy in this neck of the woods? (Chico, Ca.) --- QM v1.00 * Origin: CrossWinds BBS | 916-865-8462 | WWIV @9656 | Fido 1:119/357. (1:119/357.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 212 10-26-91 7:24pm Area: Home Power From: Mark Marcoplos To: Bob Campbell Re: building codes Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Building codes can also be seen as unnecessary "parenting" by the government. I'm full grown; if I want to use a composting toilet, salvaged wood that lacks a grade stamp, or only put one outlet in my living room then that should be my perogative. In order to provide necessary assurances to buyers, bankers, insurance companies, etc. there should be an opportunity to get your home inspected and ranked. A deluxe home with maximun insulation, a zillion outlets, and built to withstand a hurricane might get a "1" rating, A one room shack with an outhouse and no electrical wiring might get a "5". That way, there is some information about the house for those who need it and the owner is free to live his life and build his home the way he so desires. --- * Origin: EARTH*Net*Home:SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ECHO*919-9290677 (1:151/502) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 213 10-30-91 6:34pm Area: Home Power From: Tom Keller To: Mark Marcoplos Re: building codes Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I can only agree if the builder/owner also signs a contract with local government relieving them of responsibility to provide emergency services to the home and the residents thereof. Fires, building collapses, etc., are often the result of sub-standard construction techniques, and when such disasters happen, the local government agencies wind up spending BIG bucks to resue the tenants. /s --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 214 11-04-91 11:48pm Area: Home Power From: Lawrence London To: Larry Ziegler Re: batteries Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > there. I thought I'd call Delco and get some more detailed > specs on the Voyager battery. Larry... I used the Delco Voyager II Marine battery in my pickup, dump truck, and farm tractor for years. Even used one of the larger models in my VW Bug; if the generator or voltage regulator went out I could go for many miles on battery ignition and lights alone. Very fine, long lasting batteries highly recommended. Relatively inexpensive; cheap compared to the junk usually offered. --- FD 1.99c * Origin: EARTH*Net*Home:SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ECHO*919-929-0677 (1:151/502) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 215 11-06-91 4:57pm Area: Home Power From: Lawrence London To: ALL Re: Windmill pump leathers Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ * Forwarded from "ECOLOGY" * Originally from Gerard O'Reilly * Originally dated 11-03-91 13:23 American Wind Energy Association 777 N. Capitol Street, NE Washington, DC 20002 --- DB B1048/001938 * Origin: EARTH*Net*Home:SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ECHO*919-929-0677 (1:151/502) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 216 11-01-91 7:57pm Area: Home Power From: Larry Ziegler To: Don Kulha Re: batteries Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ The inexpensive deep cycle batteries are at Price Club (don't buy them all, I haven't purchased mine yet!). I've seen a couple dozen at both the Rhonert Park and San Jose stores. I forgot to check at Cosco the last time I shopped there. I thought I'd call Delco and get some more detailed specs on the Voyager battery. Larry... --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 217 11-03-91 12:59pm Area: Home Power From: Gale Barrows To: Bob Campbell Re: Compressed Air Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Fortunately, we have been able to prevent cumpulsory building codes in our county, at least so far. State codes only apply to commercial use buildings that for such uses as motels, cafes, and schools. As far as subsequent purchasers of a building, no reasonable person would buy a building and assume the wiring etc to be satisfactory. He should always inspect or have inspected any such things. When I build, it is for me, not a purchaser on down the line. I also would expect to look to see if everything meets my requirements before making a purchase. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 218 11-03-91 1:16pm Area: Home Power From: Gale Barrows To: ALL Re: convertor Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Does anybody have a diagram and/or parts list for a voltage reducer to reduce voltage from 24 to 12. I have been looking for a conveniant way to reduce my trucks 24 volt output to 12 volt to run a snowplow. The plow is run by a starter motor so I would probably need a rather high amperage output. The plow is an old Meyer. I have been told by several dealers in truck parts that they got the needed components for their homebuilt reducers at such places as Radio Shack but the builders or RS have been unable to tell me what parts are needed or how to assemble them. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 219 11-06-91 10:18pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: NightHawker Re: Home Power Mag. Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Howdy Guy.....Gee, I don't know where you could get a copy off a newstand in your neck of the woods. I'd just check at the largest newstand in your city and hope for the best. The alternative, if you're really interested in solar/renewable/sustainable and home-made power would be to cough up the $10 it cost for a year's subscription and get the next 6 issues delivered to your door (it's a little less than half the $3.50 newstand price). It's a good magazine and each issue runs about 100 pages. They will sell individual back issues via first class mail for $3.50 each. I suggest you splurge and get a sub though....I consider it the best spent ten bucks on a sub you'll ever shell out. The address is: Home Power Magazine, POB 130, Hornbrook CA 96044 (916)475-3179 --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 220 11-06-91 10:31pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Mark Marcoplos Re: building codes Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Out here in northern CA there are/used to be programs for "substandard" owner built homes in some of the rural counties. I'm not sure if the programs still exist but they did offer a lot of latitude. I believe that one of the rules was that the home wasn't hooked up to utility power. Thats fine by me. I think your proposed grading system makes a lot of sense. I'll be looking into these programs soon since we're looking for land and I'm afraid that we can't afford both acreage AND a prebuilt home on site. Given the choice, I'll take the acreage!.....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 221 11-06-91 11:05pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Larry Ziegler Re: batteries Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Larry please do let us know what you find out about these Delco "Voyage Deep cycle" batteries. That's one heck of a price if it's a decent battery. They won't fill the needs of a power hungry rural independantly powered homestead but then I've made do with a lot less and been happy with it (just having a few tail light bulbs and a 12volt car stereo was heaven at time in 1969). In terms of dollars/watt and longevity a couple Trojan or Interstate L-16's (350 ah for around $320) probably make a lot more sense but for a cabin or RV a couple Voyagers might do the trick. Theresa and I are dreaming about/shopping for rural land within some commutable distance of Santa Rosa. A couple of those Voyagers might get us through the first year or two. What I have heard is that the lightwieght "auto type" deep cycles only last 200 or so 50% discharge cycles before they die off compared to 3 or 4 times as many with the heavier duty L-16 types. It has something to do with the plate construction....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 222 11-06-91 11:22pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Lighting 1 of 3 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Things that Work! test conducted by Richard & Karen Perez Here at Home Power central, the sun goes down and the lights go on, and on and onÉ We've been working late every night and this has given us the ideal opportunity to test the Solar Retrofit Consortium's 12 VDC fluorescent light. The fluorescent light was shipped to us by Kurt Ludlow of the Solar Retrofit Consortium, Inc. (SRC) in New York City. His company makes the 12 VDC inverter/ballast that produces the low voltage DC for the fluorescent tube. Shipping Container & Documentation The fluorescent light arrived in good shape here in California, despite its cross country shipment. The container survived as did the fluorescent tube which was already installed in its fixture. The documentation on the fluorescent light is limited to exactly what you need to know to hook it up. No more and no less. Being a documentation freak myself, I'd like to know more about the performance and specifications of the unit. But the proof of the puddingÉ Physical Examination This fluorescent light fixture is a large unit measuring 49 inches long, 6 inches wide, and 6 inches deep. It is made of sheet steel and weighs about 12 pounds (shipping was less than $15 from NY to CA). The fluorescent tube provided with the unit is the Sylvania, SuperSaver Plus, Warm White, 32 Watt Model (#F40SSP32/WW/RS). The light is shielded from direct view by a sheet metal valance. Fixture Installation The fluorescent light fixture may be mounted via three screws to either a wall or the ceiling. We opted on ceiling mount in the center of the room. This fluorescent is a large light producer and we thought that ceiling mounting would distribute its light best. We wired the unit to our 12 VDC battery pack, with a switch in line. The unit does not contain a switch, and this must be provided by the user. This is fine with us as we can locate the switch where we want, and not have it fixed on the fluorescent fixture itself. We wired the unit to the batteries with about 19 feet (total- both conductors) of 16 gauge copper wire. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 223 11-06-91 11:22pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Lighting Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ SRC Fluorescent Operation. Well, you flip the switch and stand back. Get your fine work out because you got light! We are amazed by the amount of light that this unit delivers. Our workroom here at Home Power central is rather small, about 16 by 12 feet with an 8 foot ceiling. One SRC fluorescent light makes this room bright enough for fine work in any location within the room. I saw dust bunnies lurking in corners, I saw cobwebs, I got out the vacuum! In addition to high light output, the fluorescent tube used by SRC gives off a warmer light than any we've seen. This is a function of the WarmWhite tube they are using. This light is distinctly easier on our tired eyes than the cool white types offered in other 12 VDC fluorescent lights. The frequency of SRC's 12 VDC inverter/ballast is around 2,000 cycles per second. This light has none of the irritating flicker displayed by fluorescents operated at 60 cycles per second (on either grid or inverter 60Hz ac power). We like the longer, 48 inch, fluorescent tube; it seems to distribute the light better throughout the room. The standard tube is also easier to find and cheaper to replace than the midget models used in many RV type fluorescent lights. We eventually removed the valance and let the light shine unrestricted. In our application, we are working at desks and tables and the light is on the ceiling, so we really didn't need the valance. Those of you wall mounting the unit will probably want to use the valance. It is easily removable with no tools required. At the time this is written, the SRC fluorescent light has been in nightly operation for over 3 months. We have experienced no failure during this time. We have used it on input voltages as low as 11.7 VDC and as high as 15.0 VDC. The inverter/ballast is heatsunk to the large sheet metal case. We can detect only moderate temperature rise in the unit regardless of the input voltage. Most 12 VDC fluorescent lights heatsink their final output transistor to the case. Most have small cases and can overheat, frying the final transistor. In SRC's case, the case is so large that it could heatsink many more transistors than just the one it contains. Power Consumption & Cost Well all this light is swell, but how much power is it going to consume? Once again we were surprised. The SRC fluorescent light consumes 2.35 amperes of current at 12.45 VDC. We were expecting to see much higher power consumption than 29.26 watts (12.45 volts times 2.35 amperes equals 29.26 watts). The tube is rated at 32 Watts and we measure the entire unit's consumption at less than 30 Watts. This light is very efficient. The 2.35 ampere current drain is about the same as an incandescent car tail light lamp, but the SRC fluorescent gives off about 5 times as much light. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 224 11-06-91 11:23pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Lighting 3 of 3 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ One factor affecting the performance of any DC powered fluorescent tube is the frequency of the inverter/ballast's operation. We've been experimenting with standard fluorescent tubes fired on high frequency ac and have found that the tubes become more excited at higher frequencies. This makes them deliver light more efficiently than the same tube fired at lower frequencies. Before we talk price consider this. The largest cost of running an appliance in a home power system is not the price of the appliance itself, but the cost of the energy it takes to power it. In no case is this more true than lighting. In our particular situation, having this light on our ceiling has reduced our nightly lighting load to about 1/3 of what we were consuming. We replaced three 30 Watt incandescent car tail light bulbs with the SRC light. In addition to this power consumption reduction of about 250 Watt-hours per day, we have about twice the light. At this rate, considering that our AE system makes and stores power at about $1 per kW.-hr., we are saving 25¢ per day, or $7.50 per month. The SRC light costs $65 and will totally pay for itself by power conservation, in our system, in less than 9 months. After payback, it's all gravy! On the down sideÉ Well, it's hard to complain about the SRC fluorescent light. One very minor problem is radio frequency interference (RFI). Home Power central is jammed with radio gear. Both Karen and I are hams and the com rack contains HF and VHF ham transceivers, scanner, CB, shortwave receiver, and a regular ole TV. All this radio gear is directly wired to the same battery pack as the fluorescent light. If there's any RFI in the neighborhood, our system hears it. We experienced minor hash on the CB to the tune of about 2 "S" units. Channel 2 on the TV also experiences minor dancing glitches on the video when the light is operating. We haven't had time to add a deglitch (0.1µf.) capacitor across the fluorescent light's power leads. The best place for this capacitor is at the light's end of the power wires. I'm sure that a little filtration will either reduce or eliminate the noise radiating from the lamp's power wires. Conclusion SRC makes a very bright and cost effective 12 VDC fluorescent light. We like its large size, low power consumption, and standard warm white tube. At a retail price of around $65, it's a very good value. Contact Solar Retrofit Consortium, Inc., Box 34, 200 East 71st Street, New York, NY 10021-9998 or telephone: 212-517-3580. Courtesy of and Copyright by Home Power Magazine POB 130, Hornbrook CA, 96044 --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 225 11-06-91 11:30pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Quiet around here.... Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ It's been a little quiet around here the past few weeks I've noticed. These things tend to go in cycles it seems. I've been u to my ears in work lately. We're trying to get some new BBS software up and running, I've been doing some silk screening, the water bed frame blew up and needed a rebuild, we had a party here and did a major house cleaning, there's been a lot of 4-H going's on and some chores I've been putting off couldn't be put off any longer (ie., the rains a coming). My turbine research has gone on the back burner for a bit (no extra money to spend on it...gotta do some printing so I can afford it) and I've upped the pace on my patent research and preparation (I'd feel horrible if I walked into a store and saw the item I'm working on sitting there knowing a dragged my feet too long). Anyhow, I'll be a bit more active in the echo now as I'll make a point to make the time to do so. Time permitting I want to whip up a solar thermal air heater to keep the shop/garage comfortable/bearable over the coming cold months. I'll keep you posted on our progress. DCK, Moderator HOMEPOWR --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 226 11-06-91 11:42pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Excess Horseshit.... Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ...To put it inelegantly we have an excess of horsestuff from our 3 mares. Anyone know how we can put this stuff to use? I'd like to have someway to capture the latent energy in this stuff, possibly to heat the horseshed somehow. Any suggestions are appreciated....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 227 11-02-91 08:24am Area: Home Power From: Scott Parks To: All Re: WEATS Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ From: tgray@IGC.ORG (Tom Gray) Newsgroups: sci.energy Subject: Wind Energy and Development Date: 1 Nov 91 13:55:37 GMT Lines: 77 /* Written 4:04 pm Oct 31, 1991 by awea in cdp:wind.energy */ /* ---------- "WEATS Info" ---------- */ The Wind Applications and Training Symposium (WEATS) Now in its fourth year, the Wind Applications and Training Symposium (WEATS), sponsored by the American Wind Energy Association (AWEA), the U.S. Agency for International Development (AID), and the interagency Committee On Renewable Energy Commerce and Trade (CORECT), is beginning to demonstrate how important the role played by the U.S. wind industry is in the long-term development of wind resource programs in developing nations. One participating country, Uruguay, provides a good example of the kinds of results the program is starting to encounter. In 1988, the first year of the WEATS program, one representative from Uruguay attended. At that time, the country began to exhibit an interest in wind energy. This year, another representative from Uruguay attended WEATS and, in a presentation to the participants, he described a well- organized and professionally run wind monitoring program. He attributed much of its success to the information obtained during his countryman's visit in 1988. Uruguay is now in the process of locating and monitoring windfarm sites for grid-connected applications. All of the representatives in this year's program expressed an eagerness to make a place in their country's energy development plans for wind energy. In the past, as techniques for locating the appropriate country representatives were being refined, some participants' interest was limited to a curiosity about wind and the opportunity to visit the United States. This year a unanimous and sincere desire to promote wind energy in their home countries was present among the delegates. Participants reported on the state of wind resource development in each participating country. In addition to Uruguay, ambitious wind resource assessment programs are underway in Mexico, Brazil, and Indonesia. Indonesia will be focussing on remote stand-alone applications suitable for an island nation. Currently they have several prototype turbines installed and undergoing tests, including a 10kW machine at a shrimp farm. An integral part of WEATS was an overnight trip to Amarillo, Texas, to visit the USDA Agricultural Research Centre, where Nolan Clark presented detailed technical information mechanical and electrical water pumping systems. This is the second year this trip has been included in WEATS. It is a valued part of the program as many of the participating nations are in greater need of decentralized wind applications. In year's past, a few participants have made prearrangements to stay in the United States after WEATS for additional training. This year, Nabil Zeid of Djibouti arranged to receive training at West Texas State University's Alternative Energy Institute with Vaughn Nelson. A side benefit of this year's WEATS is that, for the first time, spontaneous intern opportunities were offered by AWEA corporate members to two WEATS participants. Prem Chandra Gupta of Nepal was hosted by Sea West and Yusup Kamalov of Uzbekestan will be hosted by Flowind in December after he attends several environmental conferences. These internships indicate the sincerity of industry members to promote the understanding of and ability to commercialize wind technology worldwide. The WEATS program has resulted in significant ongoing relationships between AWEA, AWEA members, and the participating countries for assistance in wind resource monitoring programs and economic feasibility studies. Additionally, U.S. exports of wind technology have directly benefitted from the program as several business transactions have been closed or are being negotiated as a direct result of the WEATS program. If you would like more details about this program, contact Dianne Eppler, Director of International Programs at AWEA (awea@igc.org or deppler@mcimail.com). --- Msged/Q 1.52/b * Origin: The HELIX | NW Environment | HST*DS | (206)782-3365 (1:343/74) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 228 11-02-91 08:25am Area: Home Power From: Scott Parks To: All Re: VITA Project Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ From: tgray@IGC.ORG (Tom Gray) Newsgroups: sci.energy Subject: Solar Power for Women in Mali Date: 2 Nov 91 04:10:39 GMT Lines: 106 /* Written 8:09 pm Nov 1, 1991 by tgray in cdp:en.energy */ /* ---------- "Solar Power for Women in Mali" ---------- */ [from _DevelopNet News_, 11/91] V I T A P r o j e c t SOLAR ENERGY BRINGS POWER TO WOMEN IN MALI Mali's abundant sunshine makes this West African country a choice loca- tion for using solar-energy technologies. And Mali seemed to be a good place for VITA to pursue its interests in renewable energy projects that involve women. Photovoltaic (PV) energy has many applications: it can be used for such devices as solar cookers, gravity water filters, solar battery chargers, solar radios, fluorescent lighting, and solar pumps. After careful con- sideration, VITA decided to develop a lighting project as a way to encourage literacy training in four villages near Bamako, the capital city. The literacy rate averages 10% in Mali and is lowest among village women. Even though the government has a program to bring literacy clas- ses to the villages, the challenge of supplying more than 10,000 vil- lages with training programs is daunting. PV lighting systems would enable literacy classes to be held at night, in villages that have no central electrical supply and no prospect of being connected to one in the near future. By installing PV lighting, VITA would thus be making a significant contribution to rural literacy. The villages of Kasara, Sansebougou, Sirakorola, and Sougoula were selected. Why were these particular villages chosen? It was important to maximize short-term project benefits and ensure sustainability. The vil- lages met these stringent requirements: the women were well-organized and active in self-help and income-generating activities; an active training center already existed and was regularly used by women; vil- lages were not more than 150 km from Bamako; the roads were passable in the rainy season; and village women expressed a definite interest in the project and a willingness to maintain the installations. Village selection was made by VITA together with the staff of Operation Haute Vallee (OHV), a local development project that strongly emphasizes training and the involvement of women in development. Once the villages were selected, VITA program manager Martin Bush visi- ted them in August 1991 with a specialist from OHV. In each village, they held extensive discussions with the men and women responsible for maintaining the centers. To ensure full and enthusiastic support for the project, they took as much time as was needed to describe it in great detail. Finally, the training centers were inspected and, where neces- sary, such improvements as whitewashing the inside walls to improve illumination were requested. This was quite necessary, because the buildings had been roughly constructed, usually with mud brick walls supporting a simple roof of corrugated iron sheets. Such small improve- ments as whitewashing could make a critical difference to the success of the project. The lights were installed in the four villages in late August and Sep- tember by a young entrepreneur from Bamako. His small business sells such PV-associated equipment as lights, pumps and refrigerators. All systems were identical, consisting of two 55-watt PV panels, two heavy- duty batteries, a charge controller, and six 13-watt fluorescent lights. In some of the training centers, two rooms were illuminated, with three lights in each room. After the lights were installed in Sougoula's training center, the women of that village asked Bush to provide them also in the maternity center next door. This new building serves a number of neighboring villages that have no health care facilities. After considering the needs and possible benefits, VITA decided to honor the request. Two lights were placed in the delivery room, two more in the examination room, and one in the small office where the midwife works. No formal evaluation of the project's social and economic impact has been conducted yet, but there is no question of it benefits. Apart from the increased effectiveness of literacy training programs due to better lighting, meetings and other classes can be held at night, leading to better community organization and development. The presence of a PV system in the training center encourages government agencies, NGOs and development organizations to run training programs in the village. The system now can operate audiovisual equipment, allowing the use of more efficient training methods. More adults now take part in literacy training since the training sessions don't conflict with day- time, income-earning activities. Because the training centers are often run by and for the village women, the status of women is enhanced. Villagers now perceive women as more important, and this serves to increase self-confidence and encourages the women to work together on village development projects and income- generating activities. These VITA activities are supported by the Heineman Foundation and the William Ramsay Foundation. They complement a larger UNDP-funded program promoting women's involvement in Mali's energy sector. [Information: Carl Lindblad, VITA.] DevelopNet News is an electronic newsletter published monthly by Volun- teers in Technical Assistance (VITA), a private, nonprofit international development organization located in Arlington, Virginia. VITA special- izes in information dissemination and communications technology. It offers services related to sustainable agriculture, food processing, renewable energy applications, water sanitation and supply, small enter- prise development, and information management. VITA is currently involved in long- and short-term projects in 10 countries in Africa, Asia, and Latin America. --- Msged/Q 1.52/b * Origin: The HELIX | NW Environment | HST*DS | (206)782-3365 (1:343/74) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 229 11-07-91 6:28pm Area: Home Power From: Dennis Garringer To: Gale Barrows Re: Convertor Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Gale, If your useing two 12 volt batteries, why not tap just one to get the 12 volts you need? I used to operate heavy equipment that was 24 volt and thats how we managed to get our 12 volt to run air filtering equipment, ect. Just a thought, hope it helps............ Bye!! BTW, you must use the positive and the ground from one battery. --- QuickBBS 2.66.r * Origin: Wildfire - Save the Earth... Conserve & Recycle . (1:119/911.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 230 11-09-91 11:49am Area: Home Power From: Lou Schneider To: Gale Barrows Re: convertor Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > a voltage reducer to ... reduce my trucks 24 volt output to 12 > volts to run a snowplow... You can place a resistance in series with the snowplow motor to drop the voltage from 24 volts to 12 volts. In other words, you want 12 volts to appear across the resistor leaving the other 12 volts for the motor. Voltage = Resistance X Current. So see if the amperage (current) is given on the nameplate. Or get a clamp on ammeter and measure how much current the snowplow draws when it's running on 12 volts. If you re-arrange the formula, 12 volts divided by the number of amps drawn by the motor will give you the value of resistance you'll need. You'll probably come up with something around a few tenths of an ohm. To determine the power that will be heating the resistor (necessary to avoid burning it up) multiply Amps X 12 volts. This will give you the number of watts the resistor will dissipate. For example, a motor that draws 30 amps will need a 360 watt resistor (12 volts X 30 amps). The value would be 0.4 ohms (12 volts divided by 30 amps). For a 40 amp motor you'd need a 480 watt, 0.3 ohm resistor. You can roll your own resistor out of nichrome heating wire, used in electric toasters and heaters. If you're buying new wire it will be rated in ohms per foot, or if you're salvaging the wire from an old heater you can use an ohmmeter to measure the resistance. The value you'll need is extremely low, probably lower than you can accurately read on your meter. If you measure the resistance of the entire length of wire as well as it's total length in feet you can figure out it's ohms per foot and use that to determine how much wire you'll need. Figure each piece of wire is good for about 8 amps of current without getting too hot, so if your motor draws 30 amps get 4 pieces each 4 times as long as what you need. If the motor draws 40 amps get 5 pieces each 5 times as long, and so on. Make each piece somewhat long to start as you'll trim them later, and it's easier to cut some off than add wire back on. Figure out a way to mount the wire where it won't short together or catch anything on fire when it heats up. Connect each wire in parallel (side by side so only part of the current goes through each wire) and connect the whole thing between the 24 volt battery and 12 volt motor. You should have about 12 volts across the motor at the same current as when you ran it on 12 volts. It is OK for the voltage to be higher when the motor is not under load because it will drop off as the motor draws more current under load. What you're looking for is 12 volts when the motor is under a normal load. If the voltage is high, add some more resistance wire to each of your runs. If it's too low cut each piece a little shorter. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 231 11-09-91 7:33pm Area: Home Power From: Terry Olsen To: Dick Gladden Re: PV usefulness Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ A company called Grainger has things like a 12 volt timer switch. --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 232 11-08-91 7:09pm Area: Home Power From: b0b Lee To: Don Kulha Re: Things are quiet, yes... Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ...but I really enjoyed reading your posts about that 12V florescent light. What I don't understand is how the AC is generated (or IS it?). I always think of florescents as those horrible strobing things you see in offices and K-mart stores. Do these DC lights strobe like that? If so, at what frequency (I imagine that something higher than 60 Hz would be easier to take). b0b --- DMG BBS v3.00 Beta * Origin: The Outland (HST/dual standard 14.4k) (1:125/180.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 233 11-08-91 8:43pm Area: Home Power From: Tom Keller To: Don Kulha Re: building codes Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ The problem with grading systems and expecting the buyer to determine the suitability of a home before purchasing is that it is not feasible for everyone, or even for most people, to have enough expertise in the various fields necessary to make an informed judgement about something as complicated as a residential structure. Just because you may happen to know how to spot inadequately braced bearing walls, or incorrectly hung sheet-rock doesn't mean that everyone does, or that everyone should The plain fact is that the world has become too complex for everyone to be an expert in everything. Or would you propose that the government not set safety standards for passenger vehicles either, on the grounds that the purchaser should perform their own engineering evaluation as tot he safety and suitability of the vehicle for their purposes? --- DMG BBS v3.00 Beta * Origin: The Outland (HST/dual standard 14.4k) (1:125/180.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 234 11-08-91 8:53pm Area: Home Power From: Tom Keller To: b0b Lee Re: Things are quiet, yes... Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In message <06373@1:125/180.0 08Nov91> b0b Lee writes: BL| ...but I really enjoyed reading your posts about that 12V florescent BL| light. What I don't understand is how the AC is generated (or IS BL| it?). I always think of florescents as those horrible strobing BL| things you see in offices and K-mart stores. Do these DC lights BL| strobe like that? If so, at what frequency (I imagine that something BL| higher than 60 Hz would be easier to take). B0b, these units are essentially high-frequency power inverters. The DC input is used to drive a high frequency power oscillator (approx. 2KHz in the unit reviewed), which supplies high frequency AC to the flourescent radiator (tube). As the article notes, the flourescent tubes are excited to a higher output by high frequency AC, so you actually get more light for less power input, at higher frequencies. --- DMG BBS v3.00 Beta * Origin: The Outland (HST/dual standard 14.4k) (1:125/180.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 235 11-09-91 09:57am Area: Home Power From: Michael Favor To: Don Kulha Re: Excess Horseshit.... Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > ...To put it inelegantly we have an excess of horsestuff > from our 3 mares. Anyone know how we can put this stuff > to use? I'd like to have someway to capture the latent > energy in this stuff, possibly to heat the horseshed somehow. consider methane. it creates heat as the manure is "digested", and after that you can burn the gas to generate more heat. i don't think horse manure is as perfect for this as some other types (pig, chicken?) but what have you got to lose? michael. --- Opus-CBCS 1.72a * Origin: Humanity Net BBS, Chico CA, 916-891-1920 (1:119/4.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 236 11-09-91 6:13pm Area: Home Power From: Dennis Garringer To: Don Kulha Re: Excess Horseshit.... Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Don, Why not build a digester and use the methane to power something? Stuffy problem......stuffy reply (8* ) Bye!! --- QuickBBS 2.66.r * Origin: Wildfire - Save the Earth... Conserve & Recycle . (1:119/911.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 237 11-10-91 11:03pm Area: Home Power From: Joel Kerr To: Don Kulha Re: Excess Horseshit.... Attr: Pvt ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ hi don have u considered generating methane gas with the horse apples? talk back for more info. Joel Kerr --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 238 11-10-91 10:26am Area: Home Power From: Michael Favor To: Lou Schneider Re: convertor Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > You can place a resistance in series with the snowplow > motor to drop the voltage from 24 volts to 12 volts. the main dis-advantage of this method is that you end up wasting as much energy as you actually use to run the snowplow (unless you are planning to make use of the heat from the resistor somehow). there must be a better way. michael. --- Opus-CBCS 1.72a * Origin: Humanity Net BBS, Chico CA, 916-891-1920 (1:119/4.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 239 11-10-91 9:31pm Area: Home Power From: Bob Campbell To: Don Kuhla Re: Excess Horseshit.... Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ DK> ...To put it inelegantly we have an excess of horsestuff DK> from our 3 mares. Anyone know how we can put this stuff DK> to use? I'd like to have someway to capture the latent DK> energy in this stuff, possibly to heat the horseshed somehow. Mother Earth used to contain a lot of articles about how to use manure. I used to dream of the perfect methane generator. It would be next to and below the barn so that the floor could be hosed into a big vat. Trouble is horses don't like concrete floors and they don't come in from the pasture to the barn just to do their business. Also shit sticks to concrete and does not simply wash away. I no longer have much desire to do more than compose the waste. In the real world there just isn't enough time. It's enough just cleaning out the stalls. I'll tell you this though, it does get mighty HOT. A few days ago I picked a rock up out of the compost pile and it was almost too hot to hold onto. Compost gets real hot but it stinks too much to be something I'd want close to the house, so I'd suggest making compost for the garden and if you begin producing too much compost you could sell it to pay the gas bill. The compost is premo! If your compost were kept in the green house you might be able to heat the green house during the winter. I suppose pipes could be run through the compose pile to capture the heat for some type of heat exchanger, but that might make turning the pile a bit difficult. I use the front bucket of my backhoe to toss it around every so often so I don't think I'd care to bother with pipes and such, but it's an idea you may wish to consider if you can think of a better way to toss it. BTW, thank you for making this such an interesting conference. --- OPMED 3.00 * Origin: Flashpoint, Change your smoke detector battery (1:119/911.1) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 240 11-04-91 11:48pm Area: Home Power From: Lawrence London To: Larry Ziegler Re: batteries Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > there. I thought I'd call Delco and get some more detailed > specs on the Voyager battery. Larry... I used the Delco Voyager II Marine battery in my pickup, dump truck, and farm tractor for years. Even used one of the larger models in my VW Bug; if the generator or voltage regulator went out I could go for many miles on battery ignition and lights alone. Very fine, long lasting batteries highly recommended. Relatively inexpensive; cheap compared to the junk usually offered. --- FD 1.99c * Origin: EARTH*Net*Home:SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ECHO*919-929-0677 (1:151/502) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 241 11-06-91 4:57pm Area: Home Power From: Lawrence London To: ALL Re: Windmill pump leathers Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ * Forwarded from "ECOLOGY" * Originally from Gerard O'Reilly * Originally dated 11-03-91 13:23 American Wind Energy Association 777 N. Capitol Street, NE Washington, DC 20002 --- DB B1048/001938 * Origin: EARTH*Net*Home:SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ECHO*919-929-0677 (1:151/502) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 242 11-11-91 07:43am Area: Home Power From: Dennis Garringer To: Don Kulha Re: Excess Horseshit.... Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Don, I remember in an old,old Mother mag an article about a Frenchman that used this stuff* in mounds to pre-heat his water. He used poles to form a rounded teepee shape, then wrapped pvc pipe around the poles. Then he simply piled the stuff* on the mounds until it filled the centers and covered the outside by a couple of feet. If I remember right he was getting 120 degree water from this system. If your interested, I have a box of old MEN that I think that artice is in. Good luck with your stuff! --- QuickBBS 2.66.r * Origin: Wildfire - Save the Earth... Conserve & Recycle . (1:119/911.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 243 11-12-91 12:00pm Area: Home Power From: Tom Keller To: Lou Schneider Re: convertor Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Your method will work, but is incredibly wasteful of energy. Why not simply use a T-MOS power FET (or two or three) and set up a simple pulse-width modulated unit that provides appropriate current flow to the load? It would be fairly simple to include an output sensor that could adjust the duty-cycle to reflect the actual load on the snowplow motor. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 244 11-15-91 11:20pm Area: Home Power From: Lawrence London To: ALL Re: Electric cars (from Usenet, sci.misc) Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Article 1526 (1 more) in sci.misc: From: Paul Houtz Subject: Electric Cars Available Now Date: 15 Nov 91 00:32:25 GMT Want to stop polluting the air? Buy an electric car! I bought my car from: Solar Electric Engineering 116 Fourth Street Santa Rosa, CA 95401-6212 (707) 542-1990, FAX (707) 542-4358 It is a 1987 Ford Temp 4-door. It is an economy car, but not extremely small, i.e., it is larger than an Escort. They sell three different electric cars, all standard cars that have been converted. The following is quoted from their sales literature: Electron-One World's most practical electric car. Seats five adults, ultra-quiet controller, solar maintainer for the auxiliary battery. Range: 45 to 60 miles Speed: 55 to 60 miles per hour Price: $15,700.00 Electron-Two Van with solar panels! Seats 5 to 7 people comfortably. Range: 45 to 60 miles Speed: 55 to 60 miles per hour. Price: $26,700.00 Destiny If you want the best...One of the most unique cars in the world, this is it. A sleek two-seater sports car with integrated solar panels. Range: 50 to 65 miles Speed: 60 to 70 miles per hour Price: $28,000.00 Solar Option costs $2,000. They also will give you AC, stereo, etc. They also sell a kit for you do convert your own car, and it costs $5,900.00 without the batteries. Or, you can bring them an economy size front wheel drive car and they will convert it for you fro $9,000.00. The also have a book on converting cars and it costs $25.00. Finally, they usually have a couple of conversions they have done, and the price varies. Last time I checked, they had a very nice Fiat Strada for about $12,000.00. I have no connection with the company except that I have purchased one of their cars. I paid the full $15,700.00 for my Tempo (Electron I) + $2000 for the solar panels, becuase it was in excellent condition, inside and out. The original vehicle only had 50,000 miles on it. You can negotiate with them on price for older vehicles if they have them on hand. I recommend you at least give them a call. Ask for Alan Lindsley, and mention my name. I just want him to know I am referring customers to him! By the way, Solar Electric is the only competent company making feasible electric cars that I have found, and I looked quite a bit. They are a respectable firm, and have sold cars to a lot of people, for instance, Chevy Chase, Kirstie Alley, etc., have bought their cars. In addition, the Destiny is featured in the motion picutre Naked Gun 2 1/2. --- FD 1.99c * Origin: EARTH*Net*Home:SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ECHO*919-929-0677 (1:151/502) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 245 11-24-91 8:05pm Area: Home Power From: Lawrence London To: Bob Campbell Re: Electric cars (from Usenet, sci.misc) Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > How fast do the solar panels recharge the system? In other > words if you drive 60 miles, how long do you have to wait > before heading back home? Can the car be pluged into a > standard 110v for a recharge? > I was really surprized that a solar car could also have air > conditioning. Is the A/C a big drag on the system? Does it > do a good job of cooling? > * Origin: Flashpoint, Dive Safely - First Time, Feet First > . (1:119/911.1) I would suggest contacting the company that makes the car for detailed information. I ran across this post in Usenet and captured it for reposting here. I'm far from knowledgeable in the field of alternative energy but am an avid student of it, to be sure. I'll keep posting material here as I find it. --- FD 1.99c * Origin: EARTH*Net*Home:SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ECHO*919-929-0677 (1:151/502) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 246 11-25-91 3:12pm Area: Home Power From: Lawrence London To: Scott Parks Re: Home Power Articles Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I see your BBS, HOMEPOWR and SUST_AG made this month's issue of Boardwatch magazine. They had extensive coverage of systems, conferences and mailing lists that support ecology, environment, nature and wildlife issues. --- FD 1.99c * Origin: EARTH*Net*Home:SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ECHO*919-929-0677 (1:151/502) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 247 12-01-91 4:25pm Area: Home Power From: Lawrence London To: ALL Re: solar energy magazine Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ * Forwarded from "Sustainable Agriculture" * Originally by Kevin Erb * Originally to All * Originally dated 26 Nov 1991, 13:42 (From the Ohio Ecoloÿûgical Food and Farm Association Newsletÿûter) "Solar Today" is a new natinal bimonthly magazine covering all the solar technologies--photovoltaics, wind energy, healthy solar environments, sustainable communities, renewable transportation alternatives, solar thermal... Contact American Solar Energy Society, 2400 Central Avenue, Unit G-1, Boulder CO 80301-9880." --- * Origin: EARTH*Net*Home:SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ECHO*919-9293346 (1:151/502) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 248 12-02-91 7:33pm Area: Home Power From: Lawrence London To: ALL Re: More Solar Electric car feedback (from Usenet, alt.save.the.earth) Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Article 1129 (19 more) in alt.save.the.earth: From: Paul Houtz Subject: NEW ELECTRIC CAR NEWS Date: 19 Nov 91 21:44:26 GMT Some of you know that I purchased an electric car from Solar Electric Engineering at the beginning of this year. I posted some information about it earlier, and here are some more facts that I just came across that might answer some of the questions I received. By the way, the car is working out very well, and meets or exceeds Solar Electric's performance claims. FACTS ABOUT ELECTRIC CARS HOW GASOLINE CARS ARE HARMING THE HEALTH OF OUR CHILDREN Smog now affects the health of more than 12 million Californians, and the greatest harm is done to our children, athletes, and the elderly. According to the California Air Resources Board, air pollution may be a contributing factor in the 80,000 deaths from heart and lung diseases in the state each year (California Dept. of Consumer Affairs, 1990). An 11-year study by professors of the UCLA School of Public Health shows that long term exposure to air pollution from California automobiles can seriously damage lung tissue and affect breathing. The controlled long term study of non-smokers show that lasting damage to lung tissue begins at a very young age when exposed to highly polluted air regions (The American Journal of Public Health, March 1991). Air pollution has been named the #1 health threat to Americans (The American Lung Association). There are over 900,000 new cases of cancer and 450,000 U.S. deaths caused by cancer each year. Dr. Samuel Epstein, Professor of Occupational and Environmental medicine at the University of Illinois Medical Center, believes that there is a very persuasive evidence that the use and manufacture of petrochemicals are the major cause for the recent rise in epidemic cancer rates (LA Times, 1989). GASOLINE POWERED CARS POLLUTE THE AIR Burning one gallon of gasoline yields 22 pounds of carbon dioxide, the major greenhouse gas ("Steering a New Course", Debrah Gordon, Union of Concerned Scientists, 1991). Driving a gas powered car 10,000 miles per year which gets 35 miles per gallon produces 5,700 pounds of carbon dioxide per year ("Climate in Crisis"< Albert K. Bates, The Book Publishing Company, 1989). Even after counting emissions from power plants, electric vehicles reduce Hydrocarbons by 99%, Nitrogen Oxides by 80%, and Carbon Monoxide by 97%, as compared to gasoline vehicles (Tests performed by the California Air Resources Board and PG&E in May, 1989). Note: according to CARB, electric vehicles emit 90% fewer pollutants than gas powered vehicles. Auto exhaust pollutes the San Francisco Bay Area skies with an estimated 3.1 tons of LEAD per day, according to the Bay Area Air Quality Management District (Press Democrat, December 24, 1990). Do-it-yourself auto mechanics dump an Exxon Valdez worth of used motor oil down drains and sewers every two and one-half weeks. The amount they send up in smoke is 80 times greater than the amount spilled from the Valdez (Greenpeace, May/June, 1990). The biggest unregulated polluters of water today are gasoline cars. The grease and oil stains visible on every street and parking lot pose a water pollution threat equal to industrial discharges into sewers, according to a report released by Citizens for a Better Environment (San Francisco Chronicle, August 20, 1991). Almost half of the smog-forming hydrocarbons emitted during a typical 20 mile commute in a gas powered car is produced in two portions of the trip; the first 5 miles, while the engine is reaching its normal operating temperatures, and while the engine is cooling down, AFTER THE CAR IS PARKED ("California Air Quality", California Air Resources Board, 1991). Benzene, a known carcinogen, is used in gasoline, prompting the warning labels to be posted on gas pumps to the effect that chemicals known to the State of California to be cancer causing are used in the gasoline. STATE GOVERNMENTS RECOGNIZE THAT ELECTRIC CARS REDUCE POLLUTION In California, the incremental cost over the cost of a comparable vehicle is exempt from sales tax and once certified, the electric car qualifies for a $1,000.00 tax credit. Electric vehicle owners in the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power utility district are entitled to a rate reduction of 2.5 cents per KWH. In Arizona an electric car owner can save up to $300.00 on registration fees. In the Arizona Public Service utility district, electric car buyers are entitled to a 5% rebate up to $1,000.00 of the cost of the vehicle. The State of California is requiring that 2% of all cars sold in the state be ZERO pollution cars by 1998. Solar Electric's electric cars meet this standard now. ELECTRIC CARS ARE MUCH CHEAPER According to CARB, the average cost per mile for a gasoline powered car is $.08. The average cost per mile for an electric car is $.03. If you drive 10,000 miles per year, you can save $500 per year driving an electric car. The motor in my electric car is waranteed for 750,000 miles, maintenance-free. That's 40 years of driving. There is no oil to change, no radiator, no hoses, no belts, no carburetor, no fuel injection, no spark plugs, gas tank, fuel lines, fuel filters, air filter, oil filter... America currently imports 50% of it's crude petroleum. This is the largest single factor in our trade deficit (The U.S. Office of Technology Assessment, October 29, 1991). Nearly 15 percent, or $294 billion of the U.S. defense budget from 1982 to 1988 was spent defending the Persian Gulf (Center for Defense Information, 1989). SOLAR ELECTRIC HAS ELECTRIC CARS NOW! The California Air Resources Board (CARB) recently announced that owners of electric cars built by Santa Rosa manufacturer Solar Electric Engineering can receive a $1,000.00 tax credit from the State of California. Solar Electric's cars are the first to be certified for the tax benefit provided under California's 1988 Clean Air Act. According to CARB Executive Order B-21, Solar Electric Engineering's electric drive system satisfies all requirements of "low-emission motor vehicles," receiving the $1,000 tax credit in accordance with sections 43004 and 43006 of the Health and Safety Code. Solar Electric has been marketing EV's since 1983. Currently the company is the largest manufacturer of EV's in America. For information or a test drive, write to Solar Electric, 116 Fourth Street, Santa Rosa, California, 95401, or call 1-800-832-1986. Solar Electric's new vehicles are much improved, boasting a range of up to 120 miles, now. Give them a call! (Disclaimer: I own no stock in Solar Electric, nor do I have any other financial interest in them. I am simply a satisfied customer.) --- * Origin: EARTH*Net*Home:SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ECHO*919-9293346 (1:151/502) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 249 12-02-91 7:36pm Area: Home Power From: Lawrence London To: ALL Re: Windmills from Solar Electric (from Usenet, alt.save.the.earth) Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Article 1134 (16 more) in alt.save.the.earth: From: Paul Houtz Subject: Re: My Own Personal Windmill! Date: 22 Nov 91 21:21:06 GMT Charles Patrick Hobbs writes: >I remember seeing ads in the 70's for small windmills one could use >to generate house current. One selling point was the claim that one >could actually sell power to the power company (by running the meter >backwards or some other method) if the windmill generated more power >than was needed for home use. > >Anyone remember much about these? ---------- Not only do I remember, but I know where you can buy one: Earth Options, part of Solar Electric Engineering. Windseeker II (12 volt/300 watt) $850.00 Windseeker II (12 volt/400 watt) $950.00 At 25 MPH, it can generate 250 watts, and at 30 mph, it can generate 300 watts. To order, call 800-832-1986 --- * Origin: EARTH*Net*Home:SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ECHO*919-9293346 (1:151/502) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 250 12-02-91 7:38pm Area: Home Power From: Lawrence London To: ALL Re: Bankruptcy of LUZ (from Usenet, talk.environment) Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Article 1575 (25 more) in talk.environment: From: John McCarthy Subject: bankruptcy of Luz Date: 28 Nov 91 06:54:16 GMT LOS ANGELES (UPI) -- Luz International Ltd. and four subsidiaries, which produce more than 90 percent of the world's solar power, said Wednesday they have filed for bankruptcy, blaming the government for its collapse. ``This industry is absolutely dead until there are regulatory and legislative reforms,'' said Luz Chairman Newton D. Becker at a news conference. ``Anyone who would invest in solar in today's environment would be crazy.'' An obviously bitter Becker, who said he is one of the three largest Luz investors, accused government officials of favoring existing energy industries over non-polluting solar energy despite the growing threat of global warming from the burning of fossil fuels. ``In my opinion, we have performed miracles with regulatory obstacles we have faced,'' Becker said. ``As businessmen and engineers, we proved it could be done, but lawmakers and bureaucrats in Sacramento and Washington kept changing their minds about the importance of solar energy.'' Luz officials stressed that the nine plants it owns at Harper Lake and Kramer Junction in the Mojave Desert, about 140 miles northeast of Los Angeles, will continue to operate. The facilities consisting of fields of large curved or ``trough'' mirrors generate 354 megawatts -- enough power to supply the electrical needs of more than 350,000 California homes daily. Luz International and its Luz Development and Finance Corp. and Luz Construction have filed under Chapter 7 of the federal bankruptcy code, which calls for a court-appointed trustee to oversee liquidation of the assets. Luz Engineering and Luz partnership Management, the two units that run the plant and employ about 300 people, filed for Chapter 11 protection, which allows reorganization of the business. Luz began building the plants in 1984 and selling the electricity under 30-year contracts to utility Southern California Edison at an ``avoided cost'' rate, meaning that Luz received whatever Edison would have spent to generate the power on its own. So as fuel prices dropped in recent years, so did Luz's revenues. Becker said the uncertainty over federal and state tax credits doomed Luz, which was founded in 1979 by Arnold Goldman, inventor of the word processor. The 10 percent federal credits were usually extended for less than a year, squeezing the amount of time Luz had to build new plants. ``We're a dot on the horizon for a tax committee,'' Becker said. ``People would say we were just crying wolf.'' Luz raised about $1.3 billion from investors to build the nine plants, but began facing difficulties with the ninth because of the need to complete the plant by a Sept. 30, 1990, deadline to qualify it for a federal tax credit. The overtime it paid on the $278 million project created a $30 million cost overrun, which ate up two-thirds of Luz's net worth. Former California Gov. George Deukmejian was criticized Wednesday for vetoing legislation last year to extend the property tax exemption for solar energy projects. As a result, Luz lost its construction financing on a 10th project. ``Why does solar energy have to live on a year-to-year basis when the oil, gas, coal and nuclear industries have permanent tax incentives as well as large federal research budgets?'' Becker said. ``It just doesn't make sense, particularly when you look at the environmental advantages that solar energy offers.'' Luz has been moving toward being able to compete on a cost basis. Through improvements in its technology, it has been able to reduce the costs of power production to 8 cents per kilowatt-hour, compared to about 6 cents per kilowatt-hour for fossil fuel plants. ``The real tragedy is that, given a level playing field, Luz could have continued reducing the cost of solar electricity even further with future projects under construction and on the drawing board,'' Becker said. Becker said producers of natural gas receive a one-year writeoff of drilling costs, plus a percentage depletion on equipment, giving them a 25 percent tax credit. In July of this year, Luz cut its 700-employee work force in half and postponed for a year the construction of its 10th plant. It announced in August a plan to sell development rights to that plant to Swiss engineering giant Asea Brown Boveri Ltd., but the plan fell through because of worries about the tax credits and the low price of natural gas. Once the 10th plant was open, Luz planned to build three more plants by 1994, raising the capacity to 654 megawatts. Becker said he was not optimistic about the future of solar energy, given the reluctance of the Bush administration to address the global warming problem. ``The rest of the world is watching to see what California does,'' he said. Edison announced in August that it and two other utilities will spend $39 million to open a solar plant near the Mojave Desert city of Barstow in 1994, using molten salt technology. Edison is also working with Texas Instruments to develop rooftop solar power material over the next five years. -- John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305 * He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense. --- * Origin: EARTH*Net*Home:SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ECHO*919-9293346 (1:151/502) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 251 12-02-91 7:42pm Area: Home Power From: Lawrence London To: ALL Re: Cool Energy [Part 1] (from Usenet, alt.save.the.earth) Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Article 1148 in alt.save.the.earth: From: Harel Barzilai Newsgroups: talk.environment,alt.save.the.earth,talk.politics.misc,alt.activism Subject: RESOURCE: Pamphlet on "Cool Energy" (UCS) Date: 2 Dec 91 03:06:34 GMT ....Sample Forward from misc.activism.progressive... "Renewable energy sources are forced to compete in a rigged market because our economic system fails to account for the environmental and social damage caused by energy technologies. These "external" costs -- such as the acid rain and air pollution caused by coal burning -- are not included in the prices we pay for fossil fuels. "This means that relatively harmful energy sources, like coal, are given an unfair market advantage over relatively benign sources, like wind power." ################################################################## ===================== C o o l E n e r g y ===================== "The Renewable Solution to Global Warming" A pamphlet by the Union of Concerned Scientists (See bottom for membership information) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --> [Send the 1-line message GET RENEWABL ENERGY ACTIV-L to ] [LISTSERV@UMCVMB.BITNET for a copy of this file. ] --> [Send GET ACTIV-L ARCHIVE ACTIV-L to above address for a ] [listing with brief descriptions of other files available] - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - There is a strong consensus within the scientific community that an increasing concentration of heat-trapping gases in the atmosphere will cause the earth's climate to get warmer. The buildup of these gases -- carbon dioxide (CO2), chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs), nitrous oxide, methane, and ozone (smog) -- will increase the atmosphere's natural "greenhouse effect," bringing on global warming. Resulting changes in surface temperature, precipitation, sea level, and other aspects of our climate could cause severe disruption of natural and economic systems throughout the world. Our society uses enormous amounts of energy to heat our homes and offices, to power our industrial economy, and to move us rapidly from place to place. The burning of fossil fuels (coal, oil, and natural gas) to supply this energy is responsible for the buildup of the most common greenhouse gas -- carbon dioxide. Fossil-fuel burning releases 5.6 billion tons of carbon -- at least 70 percent of total carbon emissions from human sources -- into the atmosphere each year. It is also a major source of nitrous oxide, methane, and ozone. Fortunately, we can reduce these greenhouse-gas emissions and slow down the climate change without major changes in our way of life. =============================================== A N A T I O N A L E N E R G Y A G E N D A =============================================== To slow and eventually stop global warming, world emissions of greenhouse gases, particularly CO2, will have to be cut substantially. UCS supports the goals of the 1988 Toronto World Conference on the Changing Atmosphere: a 20 percent reduction of CO2 emissions by 2005, followed by a 50 percent reduction by a later date. These goals are achievable and should be adopted by the United States and other countries. To do its part, the United States will need a coherent energy policy focused on two areas: energy efficiency and renewable energy. Major improvements in energy efficiency are necessary to allow the United States to sustain strong economic growth while avoiding increases in energy consumption that would give off more carbon dioxide. In the long run, fossil fuels will have to be replaced by renewable energy sources, particularly solar, wind, and biomass (wood and other plant matter). If developed to their full technical and economic potential, these energy sources could supply a large fraction -- perhaps half -- of US energy needs by 2020. [Regarding the need to replace fossil fuels in the long ] [run, it is estimated, for example, that perhaps 35 years] [remain before the depletion of current petroleum ] [reserves -- and not much longer before all known ] [petroleum resources on earth -- regardless of whether ] [getting at them is possible or economically viable -- ] [are depleted. See chart in the file EARTH STATS ] [available with the GET command (see bottom) ] =============================== R E N E W A B L E E N E R G Y =============================== Renewable energy sources have several advantages over fossil fuels and nuclear power. They are enormous and inexhaustible, produce little or no pollution or hazardous waste, and pose few risks to public safety. Further, they are entirely a domestic resource and thus would be virtually immune to foreign disruptions like the 1973 Arab oil embargo. They also provide a hedge against energy-price inflation caused by the depletion of fossil-fuel reserves. And, unlike coal and nuclear plants, which take 8-15 years to put into operation, large-scale renewable-energy technologies can be installed quickly, in six months to two years. The United States already relies on renewable energy sources for about 7.5 percent of its energy needs. The vast majority of this energy comes from two sources that have reached commercial maturity: hydroelectric power and wood. In the future, a much larger portion will be supplied by the emerging technologies of solar, wind, and biomass-derived fuels. ========= S O L A R ========= Solar technologies can provide both electricity and heat and thus are suitable for a variety of energy applications. Passive-solar home-heating systems, solar water heaters, large-scale solar-thermal electric systems (which convert solar heat to electricity), and photovoltaic cells (which generate electricity directly) have all met with some commercial success in the past decade. Most solar technologies are much less expensive today than just a few years ago, and they are likely to become more competitive in the next few years. For example, the price of photovoltaic electricity has fallen tenfold since 1976, to about 25-35 cents per kilowatt-hour; in 10 years the cost could reach 6-12 cents per kilowatt-hour, low enough to compete with most conventional electricity sources for generating peak daytime power. Solar-thermal electric systems already produce electricity at a cost of about 12 cents per kilowatt-hour, and the cost is expected to drop to 8 cents per kilowatt-hour when larger plants now under construction are completed. By the end of the 1990s, a variety of solar-thermal electric designs, including parabolic-trough collectors, parabolic-dish collectors, and central receivers, could be generating electricity at economic prices. ======= W I N D ======= Wind power, one of the oldest and most environmentally benign energy sources, has been one of the most successful in the past 10 years. Between 1981 and 1988, over 15,000 wind turbines with a total peak electric capacity of almost 1,500 megawatts were installed in California -- where the vast majority of US and world wind-power development has taken place and in 1987 these turbines generated about as much electricity as San Francisco consumes in a year. Wind power offers the potential for meeting a large fraction of US electricity needs. Estimates of the total potential vary, but it appears that at least 20 percent of current US electricity demand could be met by wind turbines installed on the Great Plains, along coasts, and in other windy areas. Wind turbines are among the most economical of the emerging renewable-energy technologies. At a good site, modern turbines can produce electricity at a ============================================ [CHART] (35%) (40%) (33%) (28%) (40+%) 1973 1977 1981 1985 1989 Renewable energy sources are needed to reduce US dependence on foreign oil, which once again has risen above 40 percent ============================================ cost of 7-9 cents per kilowatt-hour. Within the next few years the cost could fall to 4-6 cents per kilowatt-hour. This would make wind power competitive with a broad range of conventional electricity sources. ============= B I O M A S S ============= Biomass use -- capturing the solar energy in wood and vegetation -- is now 4-5 percent of annual US energy consumption. Ultimately, biomass resources could supply 15-30 percent of US energy consumption. Agricultural, forestry, and municipal wastes, plus plants and trees grown on "energy plantations," would supply the raw materials. In the future, biomass is likely to be most important as a source of liquid fuels for transportation. Automobiles and trucks could run on these fuels with only minor modifications to their engines and fuel tanks. (Currently about 8 percent of gasoline sold in the United States contains ethanol, derived from corn or other grains, in a mixture known as gasohol.) In addition, biomass-derived gases such as methane (the major constituent of natural gas) and a mixture of carbon monoxide and hydrogen can be readily burned in existing natural-gas-fired steam boilers and furnaces. Most biomass fuels are still too expensive to succeed commercially, but their costs are falling steadily, and the Department of Energy projects that biomass fuels could become competitive with petroleum-based fuels around the turn of the century. As long as biomass that is consumed for energy is replaced by new growth, so that the carbon dioxide released in combustion is reabsorbed, biomass's net contribution to global warming will be negligible. More than most renewable energy sources, however, biomass carries some environmental risks, including air pollution, toxic residues and ash, and depletion of soil nutrients. These issues must therefore be studied carefully and appropriate standards and regulations developed. ======================================== --- * Origin: EARTH*Net*Home:SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ECHO*919-9293346 (1:151/502) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 252 12-02-91 7:44pm Area: Home Power From: Lawrence London To: ALL Re: Cool Energy [Part2] (from Usenet, alt.save.the.earth) Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ STIMULATING THE RENEWABLE-ENERGY ECONOMY ======================================== The transition to a renewable-energy economy will require the implementation of a new national energy policy, changes in government programs, and a restructuring of some aspects of our taxation system. There are a number of options for action at the federal, state, and local levels that will help to stimulate large-scale commercialization of renewable energy sources. Federal Funding for Research, Development, and Demonstration Despite massive cuts under the Reagan administration, federally funded R&D has contributed to continuing gains in solar, wind, and biomass technologies. What is needed now is a steady annual increase of perhaps 20-30 percent in the Department of Energy renewable-energy budget. There is also a need for greater -------------------------------------------- change in federal funding for mass transit from 1981 to 1989: -50% reduction in Department of Energy budget for renewable energy between 1981 and 1989: 90% See "Blood is Thicker than Oil," In These Times, Sept. 19-25, 1990 --HB -------------------------------------------- ============================================ US Department of Energy Renewable Energy Spending [Bar Graph] Billions of 1990 Dollars .98 .45 .33 .28 .25 .22 .17 .13 .10 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1981 1982 1983 1984 1985 1986 1987 1988 1989 ============================================ ============================================ Costs of Electricity in 1992 New Plants On-Line in California Cents/kilowatt-hour (1985$) BASELOAD Conventional Coal 6 12 Nuclear 8.3 14.5 Wood 7 14 Geothermal 10 11.5 INTERMEDIATE/PEAK Natural Gas 13 20 Small Hydro 7.6 20 Solar Thermal 10 15 Wind 5.5 21 Photovoltaic 19 30 Source: California Energy Commission (1988) ============================================ emphasis on near-term commercialization, including cost-sharing efforts with the private sector, demonstration projects, and the purchase of renewable energy in Large quantities to supply power to government facilities. ------------------------------------------------------- L E V E L I N G T H E " P L A Y I N G F I E L D " ------------------------------------------------------- Renewable energy sources are forced to compete in a rigged market because our economic system fails to account for the environmental and social damage caused by energy technologies. These "external" costs -- such as the acid rain and air pollution caused by coal burning -- are not included in the prices we pay for fossil fuels. This means that relatively harmful energy sources, like coal, are given an unfair market advantage over relatively benign sources, like wind power. If the hidden costs of energy technologies were included in their price -- rather than in our taxes and health-insurance costs -- renewable-energy technologies would be in a far better position to compete with their conventional counterparts. The playing field can be at least partially leveled through the utility rate-setting procedure (where the "external" costs would be "internalized"); by federal and state support, whether direct or through tax credits, to bring down the costs of renewable energy sources; and by modest taxes on the use of fossil fuels. ----------------------------------------------------------- E N C O U R A G I N G P R I V A T E I N V E S T M E N T ----------------------------------------------------------- The short-term focus that has run rampant in American industry and financial circles also places renewable energy sources at a disadvantage. The high initial costs of solar collectors, wind turbines, and other renewable technologies make them more expensive than conventional technologies in the short term, even though their costs in the long run are likely to be lower. These barriers can be lowered by the use of tax credits for renewable-energy investments and by educational programs on the federal, state, and local levels. =================== C O N C L U S I O N =================== The global development of renewable energy sources, along with improvements in energy efficiency, could greatly slow the pace of global warming, cutting the projected temperature increase over the next 100 years by nearly 50 percent, according to a recent EPA study. In order to accomplish this, however, government leadership, particularly by the US, will be crucial. The United States must increase its support for renewable energy sources. The relatively minor initial investments required will be more than offset by the long-term economic and environmental benefits. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The material in this brochure is adapted from a 1990 UCS report of the same title, available from the UCS Publications Department. The Union of Concerned Scientists is a nonprofit 501(c)(3) organization supported by donations from some 100,000 individuals, including many thousands of scientists UCS is a member of the Environmental Federation of America and is certified by the Combined Federal Campaign for workplace giving by federal employees and military personnel You may become a UCS Sponsor and receive our quarterly publication, Nucleus, by making a tax-deductible contribution of any reasonable amount. UCS produces both printed and video educational materials on a variety of issues, including global warming. For more information, contact: Union of Concerned Scientists 26 Church Street Cambridge, MA 02238 (617) 547-5552 PRINTED ON RECYCLED PAPER Cover photo courtesy of Luz International, Ltd. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ====================================== To get a file named FILE NAME from the archiver (files are two words separa- ted by a space), send the 1-line message GET FILE NAME ACTIV-L to: LISTSERV@UMCVMB.BITNET [or: LISTSERV@UMCVMB.MISSOURI.EDU] ====================================== Use GET with the file ACTIV-L ARCHIVE for a listing of files available with the GET command. --- * Origin: EARTH*Net*Home:SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ECHO*919-9293346 (1:151/502) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 253 12-14-91 7:05pm Area: Home Power From: Danny Burdick To: All Re: Bankruptcy of LUZ (from Usenet, talk.environment) Attr: Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ You know I cannot understand for the life of me...how something like this LUZ thing ever gets to the chapter 11 stage without a public upheaval.... It compares with some politicians passing a bill outlawing breathing air! How in the world can the people of this planet just stand there dumbfounded while the entire Solar industry gets pushed into bankruptcy?...I ask myself why do we only hear about this misjustice AFTER it is already too late....? Hell I would donate money out of my paycheck if it would do any good...but how in the world can LUZ expect any help when the common Joe on the street doesn't even know what's going on till the company has already closed down???... Somebody get the doctor some hot water....I think the solar industry is going to have a cow...!...Did the reputed Government heavyhandedness include silencing the press about all this till they where sure LUZ was good and DEAD? God helps those, who help themselves.... How can the world fixit, if we don't know it's broken? This is the stupidest thing I have ever heard..... Somewhere, somehow, there is a GROUP of information we mushrooms are not getting down here....somebody turn on the lights please!!!! Danny Burdick "Energy" --- * Origin: Energy..Rockledge, Florida (407)690-0032 Compucom (1:374/17) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 254 12-18-91 12:43pm Area: Home Power From: Harvey Hazelett To: All Re: Tesla Free Energy Reciever Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Tesla BBS 407-957-6191 St. Cloud/Florida As the sysop, and serious Tesla enthusist, was wondering if anybody has considered some of Tesla's works as ways to beat the electric company? He worked in several ares the I'd suspect would be of interest, and will send some of my text files when I figure out a way to do it through the network. Tesla BBS is a Commodore 64 board, so it poses some interesting challenges... Anyway, around the time Dr. Tesla was working on methods of wireless transmission of power, he also developed recievers to go with the broadcast stage. Now, back at the turn of the century, radio was in its infancy so to speak, and came to be do to some of Tesla'a work towards wireless power transmissions. The point is this; back then, there were few radio waves in the airways, and now they are packed with transmissions. Since radio signals are electrical energy, and our recievers use a very small portion, wouldn't it mean that with a suitablle recieving unit, all that energy could be collect, stored and/or converted for home use? It should be perfectly legal, asone would not be stealing from the broadcasters, interfering with some lonely old ladies soaps. Also, there is the Tesla Bladeless Turbine, which Tesla created a nuber of years after the internal combustion engines were pretty much the industry standard. I've read several articles, and most agree that the Tesla Turbine is over 70% efficient with a very low level of emissions. It never interested an industry already commited to internal combustion, but I think in these times of limitted resources, serious pollution, and waste problems there is cause to check into. There is only one moving part in the whole thing, so servicing would be a breeze,,,change the bearings... I don't know how effiecent todays internal combustion is, but doubt that it is much more than 50%, and of course it scares me to attempt to do a tune up... --- TAGMAIL v2.41 * Origin: The Program Exchange (1:3633/133) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 255 12-23-91 3:52pm Area: Home Power From: Lawrence London To: ALL Re: Solar Electric awarded NASA contract (from Usenet, sci.space.news) Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Subject: NASA 90-1 Phase II Award Distributions Date: 22 Dec 91 06:38:45 GMT Followup-To: sci.space Organization: NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA DECEMBER 18, 1991 NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION SMALL BUSINESS INNOVATION RESEARCH (SBIR) PROGRAM PROPOSALS SELECTED FOR NEGOTIATION OF SBIR PHASE II CONTRACTS CALIFORNIA International Solar Electric Technology 8635 Aviation Boulevard Inglewood, CA 90301 Vijay K. Kapur 213-216-4427 Light-Weight, Flexible, Thin-Film Solar Cells for Space Applications --- * Origin: EARTH*Net*Home:SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ECHO*919-9293346 (1:151/502) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 256 12-23-91 4:53pm Area: Home Power From: Harvey Hazelett To: All Re: Hydrogen fuel cell Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I run Tesla BBS here in Florida, and occasionally call another board of the same name in Colorado, and pick up a few text files. Over the weekend I downloaded HYDROGEN.ZIP (156k worth). It turned out to be a presentation on a method for breaking the covalent bond between hydrogen and oxygen in water molecules. Big deal right, most kids do this in grade school with simple electrolysis... This is a faster, more productive method, and it sounds like an invention that could truely change the world. Imagine being able to convert you car to run off ordinary tap water, generate your own electricity for mere pennies per month, and how clean the comubstion of a hydrogen-oxygen mixture would be (water vapors as exhaust). Think of all the jobs the conversion process would create, and the money this country would save with our petroleum demands dropping by atleast 60%... I don't own an IBM computer, so I'm still waiting for somebody to help me out on the GIFs that came with the package, but the text portion more than made a believer of me, especially the patent transcripts. I've uploaded this package on the NO NAME BBS in Kissimme, Fl (407) 348-2006. Its 9600 baud, has several FIDO echos (not this one though), or you can call Tesla BBS, St. Cloud/Fl. (407) 957-6191 2400 baud Punter/Xmodem. And finally, there is also Tesla BBS in Colorado (719) 486-2775 (not sure the baud rate, but its an IBM board). HYDROGEN.ZIP contains 6 GIF files, the complete patent transcript, and another file from someone trying to replicate the device and spread the word around (public knowledge is the best defense to this idea being locked away in some executive's vault...). Its set up to display the text and GIFs automatically (I missed out on the luxary)... It seems quite possible, though I have no formal education in the field, I have always held a strong interest in science and technology, and read about these fields constantly. If you are really wanting an alternative to present energy sources, this would be atleast interesting reading, and well worth checking into. The information provides many references, and sources for further information, including how to recieve copies of the patent, articles written, independent test results, and so forth. It this hadn't been so well documented, and a strong feeling that I've read something in one of the science/electronics type magazines, probly wouldn't be going to all this hype. If seperating water molecules into its components can be done on such a scale, there would be a lot of potential for major profits for those who get in on it early, and a good living for those who get into the constuction and conversion fields after its introduction in to the consumer markets. Something like this would appeal to most anyone concerned with the enviroment, depleting resourses, and our energy dependency on the oil producing nations. Think of no need to buy fossel fuels, generating your own electricity, heating your home in the winter, cooling it in the summer. All for pennies compared to the current methods, keep American resource here at home, save the enviroment, generate jobs... The time is ripe for such a major change, and a chance to once again free ourselves of depending on forgien nations... --- TAGMAIL v2.41 * Origin: The Program Exchange (1:3633/133) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 257 12-25-91 6:03pm Area: Home Power From: Harvey Hazelett To: All Re: Energy? Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Is this echo open to all alternate energy sources, or just solor power? Perhaps the things I've posted were just too out of the ordinary to attract attention... I suppose that since I'm a 'Teslaphile', my interests tend toward that area, but there are so many other promising areas of research to just concentrate on solar, which I have seen too much of great interest. I get more the impression that the equipment and materials are pretty expensive, take up a lot of space, and very low output, even on sunny days. Now, I'm sure all this research has a purpose out in space, but figured we were searching for a more practical solution here on Earth... --- TAGMAIL v2.41 * Origin: The Program Exchange (1:3633/133) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 258 12-27-91 11:31am Area: Home Power From: Danny Burdick To: Harvey Hazelett Re: Energy? Attr: Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ * In a message originally to All, Harvey Hazelett said: > Is this echo open to all alternate energy sources, or just > solor power? Perhaps the things I've posted were just too > out of the ordinary to attract attention... Absolutely not!!!...I don't care myself if it's counting bb's with a fork while standing on your head....if it saves energy and is for the good of mankind...press on sir..!..By the way if your board hopping sometime give us a call and check it out... Energy 24 Hrs. a day 7 days a week Danny Burdick...Sysop --- * Origin: Energy * Where people discuss it before it runs out! (1:374/17) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 259 12-28-91 09:25am Area: Home Power From: Danny Burdick To: All Re: Environmental Technology Attr: Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I don't know the legality of it...but I couldn't resist cross-feeding this very interesting tidbit over from the Environ echo....dealing with new updates to Solar technology.... * Message originally: From: Roan Carratu To : All Date: 12-28-91 Area: "Environmental Issues [Echo]" * Forwarded by Danny Burdick using RemoteAccess 1.10+ From July 1991 POPULAR SCIENCE Science Newfront feature: page 24 Sun Beads by Mark D. Uehling Quoted in Verbatium Despite the promises of engineers, most devices that convery sunlight to electricity are low-watt novelties. But Texas Instruments and Sourthern California Edison Co. have developed a new breed of solar cell that could deliver clean energy at competitive prices. Engineers at the two companies designed a tiny bead of silicon, phosphorus, and boron that kicks out a trickle of electrons when struck by photons from the sun. The Spheral Solar Beads, which are bonded to sheets of aluminum foil, are easily made from low-grade silicon priced at $1 per pound. Most photovoltaics are expensive and tricky to assemble because they're made from purified silicon, a brittle crystalline material that costs as much a $35 per pound. "The stuff we used is full of impurities like iron that would be death to a conventional solar cell," say Nick Patapoff of Southern California Edison. When the silicon is melted to form beads, most of the impurities migrate to the surface and are removed. After spending $10 million and earning 40 patents on the cells, the companies recently began test production in Dallas. Patapoff estimates that a 100 square foot panel generating 1,000 watts might cost as little as $2,000. That would be one-fourth to one-sixth as much as a conventional photovotaic cell producing the same amount of electricity. Patapoff believes energy-conscious residents with large roofs might even run their electrical meter backward by pumping unneeded power out of the house and into the utility grid on sunny afternoons. (end of data) Yet another alternative to fossil fuels and nukes... (Note: On page 9 of this issue is a article called THE GOLDEN RULE, Your Tax Dollars And The Environment. It talks about the FY92 Budget with specific data about the environmental aspects of the budget, both positive and negative and gives specific names and addresses of who to write in government to express your opinions.) Danny Burdick "Energy" --- * Origin: Energy * Where people discuss it before it runs out! (1:374/17) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 260 12-28-91 10:49pm Area: Home Power From: Wendell Quillen To: All Re: Microwave Cooling Attr: Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I am looking for someone to help design a system concept, using microwave as a secondary energy source to heat liquid amonia for a refrigerant. I need someone to help me design a heat exchanger between the two. It is an old idea which was first used with gas heat, but my system will be using microwave, which could be driven by low powered solar panels to the magnatrons using step up transformers. Please help. This idea is haunting me because of the beauty of NO MOVEING parts, no R-12 or R-22, and extreamley cheap to run. Thanks, Doctor Fix-It --- * Origin: Energy * Where people discuss it before it runs out! (1:374/17) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 261 12-29-91 11:47am Area: Home Power From: Harvey Hazelett To: Danny Burdick Re: Energy? Attr: Rcvd ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Danny, would enjoy checking out your board, and would most likely want to exchange a few text files from my board. Unfortunately, you didn't leave a number for me to call. I didn't want to scare anybody away or anything, just wanted to generate some activity. There isn't too much interest in technical things locally, and try to keep the long-distance to a minimal, but do call out of state to a few select boards, that carry interesting text. Will check into send my text files via FIDO. Not sure how it will work out, but will copy them off my board in a little while, and see if this new terminal will allow me to send them as if I were typing them. Some boards and terminals don't seem to work out that way, but using different systems, so perhaps it'll work out. I'm hooked on Tesla type technology, the kind sort of forgotten because its just weird, most people think its fantasy or their isn't much potential for major proffits. Tesla had some very interesting, and I think very possible works, not to mention that most everything he produced, was efficient, economical, and none poluting. All of these charactoristics are becoming of greater importance. i don't know of how much use Tesla's lost inventions are in this day and age, since its been nearly 100 years. The methods he used to design his machines will never be out-dated. He wasn't concerned about time, costs, or proffits, but simple to provide mankind with a better way of living, clean and efficiently with minimal waste... --- TAGMAIL v2.41 * Origin: The Program Exchange (1:3633/133) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 262 12-31-91 7:11pm Area: Home Power From: Danny Burdick To: Harvey Hazelett Re: Energy? Attr: Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Danny, would enjoy checking out your board, and would most > likely want to exchange a few text files from my board. > Unfortunately, you didn't leave a number for me to call. Voice.....(407) 639-3526 Might make up a list of what you have and fire it up....I have a download allfiles listing....if you'd like....go for it.... Danny Burdick "Energy" --- * Origin: Energy * Where people discuss it before it runs out! (1:374/17) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 263 12-31-91 7:34pm Area: Home Power From: Danny Burdick To: All Re: Cross-feed about Solar Technology Attr: Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ * Message originally: From: Tom Grelinger To : Lawrence Kennon Date: 12-23-91 Area: "Environmental Issues [Echo]" * Forwarded by Danny Burdick using RemoteAccess 1.10+ Agreed. Do you get a newsletter called _Access to Energy_? It is written by a professor emeritus in physics from Colorado named Petr Beckmann. He also operates a BBS for those who subscribe. In the current issue he shows rather briefly how solar energy cannot really work for big-time MWattage capacity. He says that solar energy is dilute and wonderful for atmospheric processes and biological energy, and eventually there is hope for converting solar to chemical energy (he sees to look at I. Dostrovsky, "Chemical fuels from the sun," Sci. Amerc., Dec 1991). Here's what is the rest he says about solar, "But it can never becme a feasible source for central electric power generation. The reason is that the insolation at the surface of the earth amounts to only 900 W/m^2, of which at an optimize 20% efficiency only 180 W [W being Watts, m being meter, and MW being MegaWatt] are absorbed. For a spacing factor of 0.5 (collector to total area) that is reduced to 90 W, and above all, if you want 1 MW capacity (not just 1 MW peak power), that means supplying 1 MW whenever demanded, maybe at midnight. But the original 900 W/m^2 apply only to vertical incidence onto the collector in a cloudless sky. That necessarily menas storage, which further reduced the 90 by a factor of at least 6, i.e. to 15 W/m^2. For a 1,000 MW capacity you therefore need at least an area of 67 km^2 = 26 square miles" (Access to Energy, January 1992, vol 19, no.5, Dr. Petr Beckmann). From the end of every _Access to Energy_ "Publisher and editor Dr. Petr Beckmann, Professor Emeritus of Electrical Engineering, University of Colorado. Subscriptions: individuals $25 for 12 montly issues (Canada $27, overseas, by air mail only $30). Corporations double, US tax-subsidized organizations $100. Order from Access to Energy, Box 2298, Boulder, CO 80306." Even if they could get the efficiency up to 100% [which I believe is physically impossible, maybe not], you would still need 13.3 km^2, I believe. That is leaving the other factors in like the spacing factor and storage factor (factor of 6). Sorry folks....but it was so interesting....or rather perked up the topic that I couldn't help but cross-post...if for no other reason but the names...places...and contacts that might be made using the info.... Danny Burdick "Energy" --- * Origin: Energy * Where people discuss it before it runs out! (1:374/17) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 264 1-04-92 4:24pm Area: Home Power From: Wendell Quillen To: All Re: Solar clothes dryer Attr: Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I have been useing a dryer in my home for around 1.5 years that I,ve converted over to utilize the hot attic air in my home to help assest the drying capacity of my dryer. There are several advantages to this system I feel. (1) It reduces the heat load in the attic and helps the cooling down in the conditioned area of my home by removeing hot air from the attic, restricks any conditioned air in my home to be used as intake air to my dryer, fjjjff fjjdiiekk --- * Origin: Energy * Where people discuss it before it runs out! (1:374/17) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 265 1-04-92 4:35pm Area: Home Power From: Wendell Quillen To: All Re: Solar clothes dryer Attr: Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I have a dryer in my home that I have converted so it will draw attic air into its intake. The advantages are: (1)Restricks the use of useing conditioned air in your home to be re- heated for dryer air. (2)Cools down the attic area which reduces heat load on the living area. (3)Helps out the wallet payouts to your utility's bill. If any one is interested in this Idea, just drop me a message. I've been useing this method for over two years and really does help! I call this system SOLAR PACK. On a good day clothes could be dryed on air fluff only, because there are times when I have monitored temperatures in excess of 165 degrees. --- * Origin: Energy * Where people discuss it before it runs out! (1:374/17) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 266 1-03-92 12:04pm Area: Home Power From: Harvey Hazelett To: All Re: Text files Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Here is a list of text files availiable on Tesla BBS (407) 957-6191 2 > Source list/Tesla books 3 > Other BBS numbers 4 > Empire II DOX 5 > Free energy/Tesla wireless trans. 6 > Free energy schematic 7 > The Great Radio Contraversy 8 > Sources of Tesla books, parts,ect 9 > Tesla Book List 10> Tesla Coil: part 1 11> Tesla Coil: part 2 12> Tesla Coil: part 3 13> Homegrown high voltage capacitor 14> Drug testing pg 1 15> Drug testing pg 2 16> Drug testing pg 3 17> Tesla Biography, condensed pg 1 18> Tesla Biography, condensed pg 2 19> Tesla Disk Turbine pg 1 20> Tesla Disk Turbine pg 2 21> Tesla Disk Turbine pg 3 22> Spark-Gap Oscillator pg 1 23> Spark-Gap Oscillator pg 2 24> Spark-Gap Oscillator pg 3 25> Spark-Gap Oscillator pg 4 26> Mailing list exchange 27> Tesla 'Death-Ray'??? 28> Museum proposal 29> Tesla coil theory 30> Pyramids, Atlantis, and Hi-Tech 31> Device for talking with the dead 32> Resonant Gravity Field Coil 33> Ball lightning 34> Spark Gap Theory 35> Wireless Transmission of Power 36> Tesla Howitzer 37> The Modern Tesla Turbine 38> Project Tesla (1989) 39> WWII German secret weapons pt1 40> WWII German secret weapons pt2 41> Plasma & Superconductivity 42> Effects of ElectroMagnetism/Percep 43> Synchro-Energization/relaxation 44> TransCranial Magnetic Stimulation 45> Hydrogen Fuel Cell --- Intro 46> Hydrogen Fuel Cell --- Patent 48> 249> Files on Tesla BBS/Colorado Not all are on the topic of alternate energy sources, but all have some interest. Many describe some of the works of Nikola Tesla, while others are works of othe inventers that have some merit... --- TAGMAIL v2.41 * Origin: The Program Exchange (1:3633/133) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 267 1-05-92 9:53pm Area: Home Power From: Danny Burdick To: Harvey Hazelett Re: Text files Attr: Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ * In a message originally to All, Harvey Hazelett said: > Here is a list of text files availiable on Tesla BBS (407) > 957-6191 Is the Tesla BBS on Fidonet? and if not Why not? also what is the max baudrate you can handle?...as you have many files I would like to make available to my Florida Energy community by downloading them direct from you?..... * Minds are inverse to cereal boxes....where a closed mind is an empty mind! ^^^^^^ --- * Origin: Energy * Where people discuss it before it runs out! (1:374/17) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 268 12-28-91 11:22am Area: Home Power From: Michael Favor To: Don Kulha Re: The Silly/Busy Season Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Hi Folks....Your moderator has been pretty quiet lately; [...] > if the rest of our research is favorable. It would be > a great place to put into practice all the experimenting > I've done over the years! > if been suffering from chronic curiosity to know how your experiments turned out with the Tesla bladeless turbine prototype. any news about it at all would be welcome. i recently recieved a fresh copy of Lindsay's technical books catalog (nov 91) and cant find the information you mentioned you ordered from them. could you possibly repost the title, and order numbers for the tract, if it's not a lot of trouble? thanks terribly much, michael. --- Opus-CBCS 1.73a * Origin: Humanity Net BBS, Chico CA, 916-891-1920 (1:119/4.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 269 12-15-91 07:56am Area: Home Power From: Theresa Diaz Kulha To: All Re: Methane Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ * Original Area: Ag * Original To : Lawrence London (1:125/10) I just read an article on methane production in this month's Home Power Magazine and I am just bubbling with ideas. Now I need practical feedback though...I think methane sounds like the way to go when you have a farm or just animals. The article was a brief one but I gathered that you let manure compost in a LARGE tank such as a used milk tank (apprx 1000 gal) mix it around with organic material and you get both methane gas and compost! The reason I got real interested was because they used the amopunt of 50 lbs of manure, exactly what I read that a horse produces and in the list of organics was STRAW....I started thinking gas appliances, stove, refridgerater and of course furnace..then visions of a heated arena struck me! A little too grandiose for my pocketbook but compost and heat...ah ha! a greenhouse! I had read that barns shouldn't be heated, merely kept draft-free but I am sure that in a more severe climate a little heat in the barn would be ok..(I live in realitivly moderate Northern California).. Have you ever encountered farm operations using methane? It seems like such a natural, of course a methane system requires daily management but then so does a working farm...it would be great for a horse-boarding situation...or a dairy or a chicken ranch. I understand that chicken manure produces the most methane per pound of the animal manures... Theresa --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 270 12-13-91 09:05am Area: Home Power From: Scott Parks To: Don Kulha Re: Home Power/Boardwatch Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In a msg to Scott Parks <09 Dec 1991 23:59>, Don Kulha wrote: DK> Glad you got some good PR out of it; it's deserved. Thanks! DK> SP> The article does show a nice network of info BBS's and DK> SP> I guess that what counts. DK> DK> Right On! Glad to see you back online .... Takes care of my Netmail inquiry. --- Msged/Q 1.60 * Origin: The HELIX | NW Environment | HST*DS | (206)782-3365 (1:343/74) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 271 12-22-91 2:07pm Area: Home Power From: Gale Barrows To: Theresa Diaz Kulha Re: Methane Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ It is not unusual to find hog operations using methane from sewage pits to heat the haog houses. Since the manure and other wastes are ordinarily washed into pits for composting (not exactly composting as the term is usualy used but close) and later spreading on fields, methane is a natural (and dangerous, farmers die in the pits of methane poisoning every year) product. You could probably write to the Extension Department at South Dakota State University, Brookings, South Dakota, for information both on the hog farm pits and on small scale methane production like you are thinking of. Incidently, there are buildings and other structures in regular use there that were built using rammed earth in the 1930's. I remember attending classes in such a building in the late 60's and early 70's. --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 272 12-21-91 7:42pm Area: Home Power From: Terry Olsen To: Rick Perkins Re: Luz Co. 2/2 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ RP>you. I think the only who is you and me. Get involved. What choice is there? We are all involved. The only question is, are we aware we are involved? Still, better solutions through awareness seem to bring inrpovements. --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 273 1-03-92 12:04pm Area: Home Power From: Harvey Hazelett To: All Re: Text files Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Here is a list of text files availiable on Tesla BBS (407) 957-6191 2 > Source list/Tesla books 3 > Other BBS numbers 4 > Empire II DOX 5 > Free energy/Tesla wireless trans. 6 > Free energy schematic 7 > The Great Radio Contraversy 8 > Sources of Tesla books, parts,ect 9 > Tesla Book List 10> Tesla Coil: part 1 11> Tesla Coil: part 2 12> Tesla Coil: part 3 13> Homegrown high voltage capacitor 14> Drug testing pg 1 15> Drug testing pg 2 16> Drug testing pg 3 17> Tesla Biography, condensed pg 1 18> Tesla Biography, condensed pg 2 19> Tesla Disk Turbine pg 1 20> Tesla Disk Turbine pg 2 21> Tesla Disk Turbine pg 3 22> Spark-Gap Oscillator pg 1 23> Spark-Gap Oscillator pg 2 24> Spark-Gap Oscillator pg 3 25> Spark-Gap Oscillator pg 4 26> Mailing list exchange 27> Tesla 'Death-Ray'??? 28> Museum proposal 29> Tesla coil theory 30> Pyramids, Atlantis, and Hi-Tech 31> Device for talking with the dead 32> Resonant Gravity Field Coil 33> Ball lightning 34> Spark Gap Theory 35> Wireless Transmission of Power 36> Tesla Howitzer 37> The Modern Tesla Turbine 38> Project Tesla (1989) 39> WWII German secret weapons pt1 40> WWII German secret weapons pt2 41> Plasma & Superconductivity 42> Effects of ElectroMagnetism/Percep 43> Synchro-Energization/relaxation 44> TransCranial Magnetic Stimulation 45> Hydrogen Fuel Cell --- Intro 46> Hydrogen Fuel Cell --- Patent 48> 249> Files on Tesla BBS/Colorado Not all are on the topic of alternate energy sources, but all have some interest. Many describe some of the works of Nikola Tesla, while others are works of othe inventers that have some merit... --- TAGMAIL v2.41 * Origin: The Program Exchange (1:3633/133) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 274 1-05-92 1:03pm Area: Home Power From: Michael Favor To: Don Kulha Re: Turbines Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > The best reference book on Tesla's turbine is published by: > High Energy Enterprises, Inc. > Box 5636 > Security, Colorado 80931 > The Title is "Boundary Layer Breakthru" by Jeff Hayes, > ISBN 1-882137-01-9 thank you very sincerely for the reference, i really appreciate it! is there any particular reason that the disks must be stanless steel? wouldnt any stiff material work, such as aluminum? maybe even glass? i hope you will forgive my ignorance if this is a totally stupid question. do you have any estimate of what the other materials might cost? i would be willing to put up the $400 if i was pretty sure i could get a working prototype out of the deal. sure, its alot of money for me, too, and it would mean living without a certain list of toys and luxuries, but i see it as an investment, both economic and ethical. pax, michael. --- Opus-CBCS 1.73a * Origin: Humanity Net BBS, Chico CA, 916-891-1920 (1:119/4.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 275 12-07-91 12:58pm Area: Home Power From: Larry Ziegler To: Jim Bianchi Re: batteries Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I was just in Price Club a couple of days ago and noticed the batteries are just a few pennies under $50. 105AH for $50 seems like a pretty good price to me. Larry... --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 276 12-03-91 12:03pm Area: Home Power From: Tom Keller To: Jim Bianchi Re: batteries Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ JB| Could someone comment on the possiility of Larry's batteries being used JB| for my power chair? JB| JB| > In terms of dollars/watt and longevity JB| > a couple Trojan or Interstate L-16's (350 ah for around JB| > $320) probably make a lot more sense ... JB| JB| THAT MUCH? Wow ..I had no idea they were THAT costly. Gackaroonie! No problem, Jim: L-16's are *FAR* too large and heavy for your chair! * JABBER v1.01 #T014 * Hacking's just another word for nothing left to kludge. --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 277 12-08-91 12:59pm Area: Home Power From: Gale Barrows To: Michael Favor Re: convertor Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ The snowplow I am talking about is an old Meyers plow. It is a n adjustable angle (manual) plow with an 8 foot wide blade and is to be mounted on the front of an M37 military Dodge 3/4 ton truck which uses a 24 volt system. I solved the problem by taking the pump/motor unit to the local starter shop and having them put in new field coils so the motor is now a 24 volt motor rather than a 12 volt. Cost was $60 including rebuilding or repairing all other electrical parts in the motor. Should have thought of that before as it is the cheapest way found so far !!! --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 278 12-08-91 1:06pm Area: Home Power From: Gale Barrows To: Jim Bianchi Re: batteries Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Where ya been?????? We miss you on firearms and some of the folks are getting worried about you. We were afraid you had pulled a Garry Owens on us. Swing over and say Hi. --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 279 12-08-91 12:08pm Area: Home Power From: Jim Bianchi To: Gale Barrows Re: batteries Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ GB> Where ya been?????? We miss you on firearms and some of the > folks are getting worried about you. We were afraid you had > pulled a Garry Owens on us. Swing over and say Hi. Hi, Gale. I've not been reading firearms or RTKA for some time. While I found the firearms echo chit-chat interesting, it was -- for the most part (Ed Harris's msgs excepted) -- still chit-chat. RTKBA seemed to be mostly preaching to the converted. Any gungrabbers who showed up there were being fairly well handled by the other participants already, so I turned my attn elsewhere. Then Don Kulha switched to a software type that supported a QWK reader. Coincidently, I'm on the beta test team for the JABBER QWK reader, so I logged back on and got a buncha the conferences, among them, Firearms and RTKBA. I'm still as adamant as ever regarding the RKBA and am now engaged in a discussion on another local BBS with several gungrabbers. The other day, I posted something to someone on Firearms who was asking for info on m1911a1 bbls and triggers. Now that I've been dragged, kicking and screaming, into the mid-1980s (I recently obtained an XT-clone), and have it all set up with a QWK reader and COMMO, I'll be participating more. Thanks for the thought, guy. ___ X JABBER v1.01b2 #9 X Free men can possess arms, slaves can't. --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 280 12-08-91 12:08pm Area: Home Power From: Jim Bianchi To: All Users Re: apologies Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I wish to appologise for the off-topic msg posted by me publically in this conference. I THOUGHT it had been flagged as a private msg, but my reader burped when it oughta have coughed and it got out as a public msg. (It COULDN'T have been operator error!) ___ X JABBER v1.01b2 #9 X What can I say? --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 281 12-09-91 11:14pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Scott Parks Re: Home Power Articles Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ SP> Don; SP> SP> Have 3 new users referred by the HomePower magazine. SP> None were experienced BBS'ers and am trying to help SP> them out a bit. SP> Thanks You're most welcome Scott.....Home Power Mag will be posting the list of access points to this echo conference on a regular basis (the new issue I received today also contained an updated list). The next issue should contain an article I'll be writing explaining the net and what we're doing. It should bring a lot of folks out of the wood work! The more the merrier!....DCK --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 282 12-09-91 11:20pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Gale Barrows Re: rammed earth Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ GB> What are the PD and/or the Chronicle? Are these papers in your area? GB> If so, they probably are not available in the sticks of South Dakota !!! GB> Any chance you could find and post the article on GB> rammed earth construction or maybe the name and a phone GB> for the architect or builder? I don't know if the article or builder would be much help Gale. The emphasis tended to be on high end homes ($500K+). I've always like rammed earth and earth sheltered homes for one of the reasons mentioned in the article; mainly that there is a different "feeling" about them. The massive walls and structure have a very "substanial" feeling about them. There should be a lot of info on rammed earth construction available. Our local library contains quite a bit. I'll see if I can't find some references for you. --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 283 12-09-91 11:30pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Jim Bianchi Re: Wind Generator Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ JB> and design time in the typical military prop is prob far beyond anything JB> that a private individual could muster to his side. JB> A military variale pitch prop should be at least ADAPTABLE to a wind JB> generating plant, even though its efficiency rating doesn't approach the JB> level obtained by a task-specific design. And given the ..um, dependancy, JB> on the thing (a wind turbine blade that comes off in a 35mph wind isn't JB> much good to anyone), the necessary compromises might be worth while. I have recently heard that propellors from planes make horribly inefficient wind machine blades. Something about the way they are shaped. I would imagine that a variable pitch setup might make it a bit better but the complexity would hardly be worth it. I have seen books on wind power that contained some info on blade shapes and construction. It actually looked more tedious than difficult. The construction was foam (ala surfboards) laminated to a metal spine which was fiberglassed after shaping. Since time is valuble here I'd probably contact Bergy Windpower and some of the other outfits offering wind systems and see about buying a prop. If we get the house we're looking at possibly buying I'll be seriously considering buying a 250w "Windseeker" brand wind power machine. It won't do much for us during much of the year but during the winter when the wind howls and the sun doesn't shine it could be a tremendous help. I'll definitly be doing a good wind survey first and will inquire with the weather service as to their info on the area. --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 284 12-09-91 11:40pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Jim Bianchi Re: Nicads 4 of 8 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ JB> In my present controller, I have a voltmeter with the face painted red JB> to 'prox 10vdc. Static, if the needle is "This" far from the red zone, I JB> know from experience that I might make it to the liquor JB> store on the corner JB> and back, but I'd best not try for Lads' market further away. Under load, JB> I've been in downtown Santa Rosa and checked the meter and discovered that JB> I had just a few thousandths of an inch of electrons remaining (!), have JB> abruptly terminated my journey, and hopped a bus home. JB> Now these objections might not sound like much, but to one such as I, JB> who is totally unable to ambulate unassisted, these are JB> large considerations. Excellent points Jim and ones I should have considered when making my original post. Nicads give their all, maintaining near peak voltage until they die which happens darn quick. I'd imagine you might make a block in your chair after you noticed it felt sluggish before it quit. Lead acid batteries might be best after all. What folks who use nicads tend to do is monitor the cumulative draw down of the battery with a meter that supplies this info and recharge when down to 20% or thereabouts. You can't tell from the voltage level. There are tricks to making lead acid batteries live longer. The rule of thumb is to always fully recharge them, try not to discharge below 50% if possible, do an equalizing charge periodically (think it was once every 5 full charge/discharge cycles or once every 3 months) and maintain the water level in them with distilled water. The 1991 Real Goods sourcebook has a good section on batteries written by Richard Perez. I'll try and get a copy of that to you Jim......DCK --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 285 12-09-91 11:59pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Scott Parks Re: Home Power/Boardwatch Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ SP> Yes .... I'm looking at it now. Had to make the BBS look a SP> little less regional with all these LD callers lately. SP> It's too bad they did not give Sonoma Online credit for the SP> HomePower and just list me as Environmental. SP> That's the media for ya! Now don't go gettin' all humble on us Scott. You've done a lot forHOMEPOWR, getting folks interested in it and helping to get it on the backbone. I'm glad your efforts were acknowleged. I never expect 'em to get it right unless I give 'em a press release and even then it's iffy. That more folks know that we're online and can link up with us is great. Glad you got some good PR out of it; it's deserved. SP> The article does show a nice network of info BBS's and SP> I guess that what counts. Right On! --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 286 12-10-91 12:12am Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Scott Parks Re: Luz Co. 1/2 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I read that the other day and was very sad to hear of it. It's shortsightedness at it's worse that we keep denying the enviornmental costs when calculating energy costs. From the article it sounds like it cost Luz Corp. 8 cents to produce power which brought 6 cents on the open market. Give me a choice and I'll voluntarily pay more for clean power. I think most people would. Now, it's kinda interesting that Luz International filed for dissolution while the smaller operating companies are expected to survive and continue to operate. So it isn't the end of sensibly produced power in the Mohave. It will be very interesting to see what ultimatly comes of this. --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 287 12-10-91 12:27am Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Larry Ziegler Re: batteries/bargains Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ LZ> I was just in Price Club a couple of days ago and LZ> noticed the batteries are just a few pennies under $50. LZ> 105AH for $50 seems like a pretty good price to me. LZ> Larry... They could be Larry. Especially if you have to move them around since the L-16s wieght 125lbs. each. There are some really good deals available on l-16s locally here in Santa Rosa if you look. The trade off on these "deep cycle" batteries from the discounters is that they will last something like 400 charge/discharge cycles and the heavier duty l-16 type industrial battery will go around 1000 if cared for well. Cost per AH is about double for the L-16s. You can also save something on "plumbing" with the biggies since a pair of them (2 6 volts in series) gives you 350AH at 12v. Basically it's a pay now or pay later deal and depends on the situation. I may have to go the initally cheap route myself here soon so I can use the dollars not spent on batteries toward the inverter....DCK --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 288 12-10-91 12:44am Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: The Silly/Busy Season Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Hi Folks....Your moderator has been pretty quiet lately; he's been busy. Here at Sonoma Online we've been making the painful switch from Fido software to Maximus (Max is great/simple, converting wasn't) and linking up a new batch of mail packers/scanners/mailers etc. We're not done yet but getting close! I've also been doing a lot of artwork, screen printing and interestingly, house hunting. On the later we've been researchimg a beauty. On a ridgetop, just north of Ukiah CA, sits this 20 acre parcel. It has two structures (i 1br house and a 3 br about 70% done), 2 wells, a couple springs, 2 17,000 gallon water tanks, great views, lots of phone lines, room for our horses and a utility line about 1/2 mile away. The house is currently on wood, propane and a remote start Honda generator. This we can fix (grin). It has great Solar access and should have good wind potential. I'd sure like to get it if the rest of our research is favorable. It would be a great place to put into practice all the experimenting I've done over the years! --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 289 12-06-91 10:03am Area: Home Power From: Terry Olsen To: Rick Perkins Re: Luz Co. 2/2 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ RP>Our governments shortsightedness is going to destroy our RP>country in no time! Our government is now working against RP>us! Vote the bums out! Hey listenRick, I'm willing to vote 'em out. But let me first ask you, who do we vote in!? If you got a way to change for the better, I'm all ears! I guess you've head the story about the two football coaches, one who enlisted the biggest, fastest guys and the second who enlisted guys who REALLY wanted to play football? Guess who won? The basic wrongness in government seems to be that politicions must necessarily be popular. And must support short-range popular decisions instead of wiser longer term decisions. Witness how Japan has bought up jewels and precious metals to back their economy or how many countries spend money toward health plans and more practical education instead of so much theory and background. We could practically live with wind and hydro power in this country if it were utilized, instead and especially in the East, Coal is burned to result in more polution. Political polution and envirounmental polution. Well, besides people like us becoming more aware, I'd really like to know of a better solution. --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 290 12-07-91 6:55pm Area: Home Power From: Dennis Garringer To: Gale Barrows Re: snow plow Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Gale, How goes the battle with 12/24 volt sytem ¨ Did you have any luck with rewinding the motor or are you going to rely on solar snow removal this year ? Just wondering...........Bye!! --- QuickBBS 2.66.r * Origin: Wildfire - Save the Earth... Conserve & Recycle . (1:119/911.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 291 12-05-91 10:58pm Area: Home Power From: Lee Aroner To: All Re: Alchohol Fuel Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Anybody out there interested in alcohol for auto fuels? Be interested in discussion if you have been following the latest developments. --- * Origin: The HELIX | NW Environment | HST*DS | (206)782-3365 (1:343/74) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 292 11-30-91 12:30pm Area: Home Power From: Scott Parks To: Greg Hassen Re: who is REA Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In a msg to Gale Barrows <20 Nov 1991 12:06>, Greg Hassen wrote: GH> I have a house just above the Round Mountain area in Shasta GH> County GH> and have told that it would cost me 20,000 plus to run power GH> about a mile. This is almost 5000 feet of underground. can't go GH> GH> overhead!!. some kind of county ordinance prohibits this in a GH> subdivision. GH> 6000 $ to me sounds dirt cheap. could you tell me who R.E.A. GH> is, and if GH> they could be of assistance to me. We recently converted to underground on a remodel I worked on. We dug the ditch, layed conduit and ran the feed wire ourselves. The power company cost after that was very small but we only had a 300 yard run. Most power companies are pretty easy to work with for info .... at least up here. --- Msged/Q 1.60 * Origin: The HELIX | NW Environment | HST*DS | (206)782-3365 (1:343/74) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 293 11-30-91 11:47am Area: Home Power From: Scott Parks To: All Re: Luz Co. 1/2 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy) Newsgroups: talk.environment Subject: bankruptcy of Luz Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University Subject: Top solar power producer files for bankruptcy Date: 27 Nov 91 22:50:00 GMT LOS ANGELES (UPI) -- Luz International Ltd. and four subsidiaries, which produce more than 90 percent of the world's solar power, said Wednesday they have filed for bankruptcy, blaming the government for its collapse. ``This industry is absolutely dead until there are regulatory and legislative reforms,'' said Luz Chairman Newton D. Becker at a news conference. ``Anyone who would invest in solar in today's environment would be crazy.'' An obviously bitter Becker, who said he is one of the three largest Luz investors, accused government officials of favoring existing energy industries over non-polluting solar energy despite the growing threat of global warming from the burning of fossil fuels. ``In my opinion, we have performed miracles with regulatory obstacles we have faced,'' Becker said. ``As businessmen and engineers, we proved it could be done, but lawmakers and bureaucrats in Sacramento and Washington kept changing their minds about the importance of solar energy.'' Luz officials stressed that the nine plants it owns at Harper Lake and Kramer Junction in the Mojave Desert, about 140 miles northeast of Los Angeles, will continue to operate. The facilities consisting of fields of large curved or ``trough'' mirrors generate 354 megawatts -- enough power to supply the electrical needs of more than 350,000 California homes daily. Luz International and its Luz Development and Finance Corp. and Luz Construction have filed under Chapter 7 of the federal bankruptcy code, which calls for a court-appointed trustee to oversee liquidation of the assets. Luz Engineering and Luz partnership Management, the two units that run the plant and employ about 300 people, filed for Chapter 11 protection, which allows reorganization of the business. Luz began building the plants in 1984 and selling the electricity under 30-year contracts to utility Southern California Edison at an ``avoided cost'' rate, meaning that Luz received whatever Edison would have spent to generate the power on its own. So as fuel prices dropped in recent years, so did Luz's revenues. Becker said the uncertainty over federal and state tax credits doomed Luz, which was founded in 1979 by Arnold Goldman, inventor of the word processor. The 10 percent federal credits were usually extended for less than a year, squeezing the amount of time Luz had to build new plants. ``We're a dot on the horizon for a tax committee,'' Becker said. ``People would say we were just crying wolf.'' Luz raised about $1.3 billion from investors to build the nine plants, but began facing difficulties with the ninth because of the need to complete the plant by a Sept. 30, 1990, deadline to qualify it for a federal tax credit. The overtime it paid on the $278 million project created a $30 million cost overrun, which ate up two-thirds of Luz's net worth. Former California Gov. George Deukmejian was criticized Wednesday for vetoing legislation last year to extend the property tax exemption for solar energy projects. As a result, Luz lost its construction financing on a 10th project. ``Why does solar energy have to live on a year-to-year basis when the oil, gas, coal and nuclear industries have permanent tax incentives as well as large federal research budgets?'' Becker said. ``It just doesn't make sense, particularly when you look at the environmental advantages that solar energy offers.'' Luz has been moving toward being able to compete on a cost basis. Through improvements in its technology, it has been able to reduce the costs of power production to 8 cents per kilowatt-hour, compared to about 6 cents per kilowatt-hour for fossil fuel plants. ``The real tragedy is that, given a level playing field, Luz could have continued reducing the cost of solar electricity even further with future projects under construction and on the drawing board,'' Becker said. Becker said producers of natural gas receive a one-year writeoff of drilling costs, plus a percentage depletion on equipment, giving them a 25 percent tax credit. In July of this year, Luz cut its 700-employee work force in half and postponed for a year the construction of its 10th plant. It announced in August a plan to sell development rights to that plant to Swiss engineering giant Asea Brown Boveri Ltd., but the plan fell through because of worries about the tax credits and the low price of natural gas. Once the 10th plant was open, Luz planned to build three more plants by 1994, raising the capacity to 654 megawatts. Becker said he was not optimistic about the future of solar energy, given the reluctance of the Bush administration to address the global warming problem. ``The rest of the world is watching to see what California does,'' he said. Edison announced in August that it and two other utilities will spend $39 million to open a solar plant near the Mojave Desert city of Barstow in 1994, using molten salt technology. Edison is also working with Texas Instruments to develop rooftop solar power material over the next five years. -- John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305 >>> Continued to next message --- * Origin: The HELIX | NW Environment | HST*DS | (206)782-3365 (1:343/74) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 294 11-30-91 11:47am Area: Home Power From: Scott Parks To: All Re: Luz Co. 2/2 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ >>> Continued from previous message * He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense. --- * Origin: The HELIX | NW Environment | HST*DS | (206)782-3365 (1:343/74) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 295 12-04-91 12:04pm Area: Home Power From: Jim Bianchi To: Scott Parks Re: Luz Co. 1/ Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ SP> LOS ANGELES (UPI) -- Luz International Ltd. and four subsidiaries, > which produce more than 90 percent of the world's solar power, said > Wednesday they have filed for bankruptcy, blaming the government for its > collapse. > Luz began building the plants in 1984 and selling the electricity > under 30-year contracts to utility Southern California Edison at an > ``avoided cost'' rate, meaning that Luz received whatever Edison would > have spent to generate the power on its own. So as fuel prices dropped > in recent years, so did Luz's revenues. Very interesting article, but ..`as fuel prices DROPPED in recemt years?' ___ X JABBER v1.01b2 #9 X Error 216: Tagline out of paper. --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 296 12-10-91 12:10pm Area: Home Power From: Jim Bianchi To: Don Kulha Re: Nicads 4 of 8 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ DK> There are tricks to making lead acid batteries > live longer. The rule of thumb is to always fully recharge > them, try not to discharge below 50% if possible, do an > equalizing charge periodically (think it was once every 5 > full charge/discharge cycles or once every 3 months) and > maintain the water level in them with distilled water. The > 1991 Real Goods sourcebook has a good section on batteries > written by Richard Perez. I'll try and get a copy of that > to you Jim......DCK Hey, thanks much, Don. What's an "equalising charge?" * JABBER v1.1b1 #b003 * Shrink wrap: Music for psychiatrists. --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 297 12-10-91 4:55pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Jim Bianchi Re: Chair Batteries Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ JB> Hey, thanks much, Don. What's an "equalising charge?" To quote Richard Perez.... "After several months the individual cells that make up the battery may differ in their state of charge. Voltage differences greater than .05 volts between the cells indicate it is time to equalize the individual cells. In order to do this the battery is given an equalizing charge. An equalizing charge is a controlled overcharge of an already full battery. Simply continue the recharging process at the C/20 rate for 5-7 hours after the battery is full." Now this C/20 rate indicates the Amp hour rate of charge. It is calculated as Capacity (in AH) divided by some number, in this case 20. So the ideal equalizing charge rate for a 200 AH battery pack would be 200/20 or a 10 AH rate of charge. This may not be a simple task. It depends on the type of charger you have. Many of them will taper off the charge to almost nothing after the voltage reachs 14.0v or some other number. During an equalizing charge the voltage may go as high as 16.5 volts. So you may need to find a manually controlled charger that doesn't taper off so you can contain the needed C/20 rate. DCK --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 298 12-10-91 12:10pm Area: Home Power From: Jim Bianchi To: Don Kulha Re: Chair Batteries Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ DK> JB> Hey, thanks much, Don. What's an "equalising charge?" > > To quote Richard Perez.... > "After several months the individual cells that make up the battery may > differ in their state of charge. Voltage differences > greater than .05 volts between the cells indicate it is > time to equalize the individual cells. In order to do this > the battery is given an equalizing charge. An equalizing > charge is a controlled overcharge of an already full > battery. Simply continue the recharging process at the C/20 > rate for 5-7 hours after the battery is full." Gotcha, Thanks again. * JABBER v1.1b1 #b003 * I parked my hard disk... now I can't find it!!! --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 299 12-10-91 12:10pm Area: Home Power From: Tom Keller To: Lee Aroner Re: Alchohol Fuel Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ LA| Anybody out there interested in alcohol for auto fuels? Be LA| interested in discussion if you have been following the LA| latest developments. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't alcohol burned in IC engines produce a lot a unpleasant something or another...(I want to say amides, but I know that's wrong)? * JABBER v1.1b1 #b014 * Freedom: a responsibilty, not a "right." --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 300 12-11-91 11:20pm Area: Home Power From: Gale Barrows To: Jim Bianchi Re: batteries Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ *VERY* pleased to see you are still alive and kicking !!! As to the subject line, you should be one of the experts, seeing as you use them about the most. --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 301 12-11-91 11:23pm Area: Home Power From: Gale Barrows To: Dennis Garringer Re: snow plow Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Got the plow switched to 24 volt. Cost was under 65$ ( not counting the damage done to a 1991 GMC 3/4 ton that I backed my old Ford 2 ton into backing out of the starter shop parking space) which included turning the armature and new brushes as well as the new 24 volt fields. --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 302 12-18-91 9:43pm Area: Home Power From: Dennis Garringer To: Theresa Diaz Kulha Re: Methane Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Theresa, You mentioned heating a greenhouse with methane. You also mentioned chickens. I remember a very old article in Mother that used a chicken house on the north side and a greenhouse on the south. Seems the heat from the chichens helps to keep the other side from freezing at nite. The first Mother mag I can remember had a hog ranch in San Diago that used hog wash (8* ) and staw in cement tanks with floating lids to produse all the power they needed for the ranch. The latest version I've seen uses a large rubber bladder (something like they use to transport chemicals on flat bed trailers) for methane production. I think they pumped or dumped in the mixture and sealed it up so it would create its own presure. Has lots of posbilities! Good luck, Bye!! --- QuickBBS 2.66.r * Origin: Wildfire - Save the Earth... Conserve & Recycle . (1:119/911.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 303 12-02-91 5:34pm Area: Home Power From: Rick Perkins To: Scott Parks Re: Luz Co. 2/2 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Our governments shortsightedness is going to destroy our country in no time! Our government is now working against us! Vote the bums out! --- * Origin: The HELIX | NW Environment | HST*DS | (206)782-3365 (1:343/74) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 304 12-05-91 10:51am Area: Home Power From: Terry Olsen To: Tom Keller Re: 110VAC from a Truck Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ TK> I can re-p-stat and pass on to local folks interested (I TK>have a photocopier in my garage) TK> * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 I notice we are both in Northern California. Would you please send a copy to me? Terry Olsen 425 Valley Ave Fortuna, CA 95540 Because I would like to know more about using Truck alternaters (or generators?) as a 110VAC source, driven by windmill. Thinking of several being driven together, a sort of parallel redundancy system. --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 305 12-05-91 11:02am Area: Home Power From: Terry Olsen To: Gale Barrows Re: automobile alternator volts Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I can tell you for sure that most automobile alternators are regulated to greater than 12 volts. 12.8 might be a minimum. Many automobiles are higher, some as high as 14.5 volts. This produces the 'peak' voltage the lead-acid battery wants to provide starting current. Rarely (never in modern cars) will you find 12.0 volts in the battery or provided by the regualtor. --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 306 12-15-91 07:25am Area: Home Power From: Rick Perkins To: Terry Olsen Re: Luz Co. 2/2 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ You don't have to convince me twice, I am right there with you. I think the only who is you and me. Get involved. --- * Origin: The HELIX | NW Environment | HST*DS | (206)782-3365 (1:343/74) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 307 12-29-91 12:29pm Area: Home Power From: Chip Upsal To: All Re: 30 amp ac transfer switc Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Hi all, I just found out about this confrence in the latest issue of home power. I am looking for a 30 amp double pole double through swithc to be used for a power transfer switch for my generator and inverter. I want to be able to run my sh from the generator when it is running and be able to switch the shop to the inverter when it is not. All I can find around here is a 100 amp one for $200. I would like somthing less costly chip ___ X SLMR 1.0 X Press any key to continue or any other key to quit --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 308 12-13-91 5:26pm Area: Home Power From: Greg Hassen To: Gale Barrows Re: who is REA Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ thanks for the info Gale --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 309 1-02-92 01:02am Area: Home Power From: Jim Bianchi To: Chip Upsal Re: 30 amp ac transfer switc Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ CU> Hi all, > > I just found out about this confrence in the latest issue of home power. I am > looking for a 30 amp double pole double through swithc to be used for a power > transfer switch for my generator and inverter. I want to be able to run my sh > from the generator when it is running and be able to switch the shop to the > inverter when it is not. > > All I can find around here is a 100 amp one for $200. I would like somthing > less costly > > chip Chip: Have you investigated any of the surplus electrical/electronics parts houses? If you're calling fm Santa Rosa, you might wanna ask at HALTEX electronics surplus on Santa Rosa Ave. * JABBER v1.1B4 #b003 * Absolutely nothing can go worng. --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 310 1-03-92 8:01pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Hybrid PV 1 of 4 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Design, Construction and Operation of a Site-Built PV/Hot Air Hybrid Energy System Richard Komp and Terry Reeser Abstract For a passive dwelling in Louisville, Kentucky, we have developed and are constructing a linear concentrator array. It is built into the roof structure of an attached sunspace that uses natural convection to extract excess heat from the fin module assemblies and deliver that heat to the home in the winter. In the summer, the heat is exhausted from clerestory windows, creating a draft of cooler air into the lower part of the building. The 17m x 2.5m array containing 72 fins with compound curved collectors of 2/1 ratio arranged vertically at a slope angle equal to the 38i latitude of Louisville. It was constructed at the site using 100 mm round single crystal photovoltaic cells imbedded in silicone resin onto aluminum fins for good heat transfer. The entire array will have a rated output of 2.5 kiloWatts. The power is fed to a 3500 Ampere-hour 12 VDC storage battery bank and can be delivered either directly to the low voltage lights and appliances in the home or to a 1200 Watt Heart Interface inverter for conversion to 120 vac. Uses of the power include running an IBM PC and a small plastic injection molding machine as an income producing cottage industry. This remote site has no utility power available. Introduction and Objectives Photovoltaic modules are becoming an attractive alternative source of electric power for remote homes but the high cost of the systems is delaying the implementation of this new technology. Since the main cost of the modules is that of the solar cells, concentrator designs that increase the output of each cell are a desirable way to decrease the cost per watt. Linear concentrators can operate at a ratio of up to 2/1 without need of any tracking arrangements. Care must be taken in the design to arrange for dissipation of the heat generated within the cells. Vertically oriented, passively cooled photovoltaic fins with linear curved concentrators were incorporated into the design of a new solar home being constructed by Terry Reeser near Louisville, Kentucky. Although the site is near a major urban area, it is located almost a kilometer from the nearest utility line. Installing conventional power would have been expensive. The first step in the design of such a system is a calculation of the expected power needs; Table 1 shows the expected and actual load requirements of the remote home. --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 311 1-03-92 8:02pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Hybrid PV 2 of 4 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In addition to being a dwelling, the structure also serves as the base for two cottage industries. The computer is used to develop record keeping programs for a chain of video tape rental stores; the programs being sent through a telephone connection to the stores. There is also a small plastic injection molding machine to make small parts that are sold by mail order. The molding machine actually draws 900 watts but has a 1/3 time duty cycle. The use of the plastic molder is expected to grow so it was decided to expand the size of the photovoltaic array to furnish more energy than currently needed. Photovoltaic System Design The dwelling structure is a large enclosure built around a pre-existing house trailer. The entire south facing side of the structure is a two story greenhouse/sunspace with a 17 meter long by 2.5 meter high sloping roof used for mounting the hybrid photovoltaic fins. Figure 1 shows a cross section of the structure. We used a unique photovoltaic/hot air hybrid array with linear curved concentrating reflectors arranged vertically instead of the more normal horizontal placement. Komp (1985) found that instead of the more normal ratio of 2 to 1 or less, the efficiency penalty for a vertical system is only 5% in the summer and less in the winter when the hours of useful sun light are short. 72 fins, each 2.5 meters long would just fit into the available roof space; 5 fins in each of 14 (1.2 meter) spaces between the roof rafters with 2 extra fins at the east end of the area. Figure 2 shows a cross section of a pair of fins and reflectors. The vertical oriented fins and reflectors form sloping channels for the air to rise as it is heated into the clerestory . The large contact surface area insures good heat transfer between the fins and the air. In the winter the warm air is drawn down to floor level by means of a PV powered fan. In the summer, the hot air exits through the open upper windows and the draft draws cooler air from the ground level into the dwelling. "The Solar Electric Home" (Davidson and Komp, 1983) contains practical details on the sizing and installation of this type of home PV array. System Construction and Assembly 100mm diameter round single crystal cells were soldered into long strings. After being tested, the strings were laminated onto the u-shaped aluminum channels using two part catalyzed silicone resin and polyester cloth between the cells and the aluminum to insure a good thermal contact and excellent electrical insulation. Details of the array construction are given in "Practical Photovoltaics" (Komp, 1981). A rather complex wiring scheme allowed 42 strings of 36 cells each to occupy the 72 fins. Table 2 shows the expected output of the system when completed. The KWh per month expected from the array is larger than now needed but growth in the use of the plastic molding machine is anticipated. --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 312 1-03-92 8:03pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Hybrid PV 3 of 4 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ The 12V electric power from the system is fed through a 42 line fuze array to the battery bank through two pair of 000 buss cables. Thirty-two 6V golf cart storage batteries are series/parallel wired into two separate 12V banks to facilitate later conversion to a split 24V system as the power needs increase. Right now, charge and load control are done manually by monitoring the battery voltage and specific gravity. The state of charge on such a large system changes very slowly, necessitating a decision only every two or three days. All the lighting circuits are fed 12 VDC directly from the battery bank. This takes advantage of the greater efficiency of low voltage lighting and the better performance of high frequency fluorescent lamp ballasts. The stereo system, water pump and many other appliances are also DC powered to reduce the load on the inverter. The ac loads are fed from a Heart Interface 1200W inverter; its 3500W surge capacity allows for the starting current of larger motors. The ac wiring meets the usual US code requirements; the DC wiring is similar in the use of normal ac wire, switches and outlet boxes except that "auto cigarette lighter sockets" are used as outlets. The house trailer inside the greenhouse shell is now being modified and partially dismantled for increased interior space and as this progresses, the permanent DC wiring is being completed utilizing short runs of #12 or #10 wire to insure a low voltage drop. All DC wire connections should be soldered for low wiring resistance. Operation Experience to Date Since the photovoltaic array is just now being finished and only a few rows of completed reflectors have been installed, the data on power output is incomplete. However, the partial array has been furnishing electric power to the dwelling since occupation last winter. During the winter a back-up gasoline powered generator was used three times to recharge the batteries but since half of the fins in the system have been installed in March, this has been unnecessary. Some measurements have been made on both the electrical and heat output of the completed section of the array. At noon (local sun time) on a hot summer day with slightly hazy sun conditions (700W/m sun intensity) a single string of cells produced 1.3A without and 2.0A with reflectors (short circuit current). At an outside air temperature of 33iC and 31iC inside the greenhouse, the air exiting from the top of the reflector air passages was 50iC, a 19iC rise in air temperature for this thermosyphon system. The final reflector fins should be in place by the end of September and accurate instrumentation of the system should produce more complete data on the operation of this unique installation. --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 313 1-03-92 8:03pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Hybrid PV 4 of 4 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ System Cost The total cost of the installed PV hybrid system was less than $9,000 giving a cost of only $3.60 per peak watt, but this cost is unrealistically low since the cells were purchased surplus from a solar company shut down by its oil company parent and all the module assembly work was done on site. These costs, however, are for the complete installation including the inverter and battery bank and even including a normal labor rate, the system still is cost effective compared to the alternative of bringing a utility line from the nearest existing pole. Future plans include the installation of a wind generator for winter operation when long cloudy but windy periods are common. A combined PV/wind hybrid system is cost effective in this part of the US compared to either source of power alone. Future reports will detail the operating experience of this unusual system, believed to be the largest photovoltaic installation to date in Kentucky. References Davidson, J. and R. Komp (1983). "The Solar Electric Home". Aatec, Ann Arbor. Chap. 4, Chap. 5. Komp, R. (1981). "Practical Photovoltaics". Aatec, Ann Arbor, pp. 65-88. Komp, R. (1985). Field Experience and Performance Evaluation of a Novel Photovoltaic-Thermal Hybrid Solar Energy Collector. INTERSOL 85 PROCEEDINGS, Vol. 3, pp. 1748-1752. Richard Komp works with SunWatt Corporation, RFD Box 751, Addison, ME 04606, or telephone: 207-497-2204. Courtesy of and Copyright By Home Power Magazine --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 314 1-03-92 8:05pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: People 1 of 4 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ So what can ONE person really do, anyway? Richard Perez It's easy for us to sit on our hands and bemoan our fate and the fate of our planet. What can we do? We are only individuals. How can we possibly affect the powerful megastructures that run our lives and our environment? Well, here is what one person, Mary Duffield, is doing. Meet Mary Mary Duffield is a retired English teacher living in Santa Cruz, California. She has spent many years living on sailboats and thereby making her own power. At 70+, Mary has more energy than most folks half her age. She uses this energy to foster communication about the issues that affect us all, topics like the environment and what we're doing to it. Mary's energy and strength comes from her ideas and her faith. She has more faith in us as human beings, and our ability to do whatever we set our minds to, than any person I have ever met. Mary works with children, as a volunteer, teaching Ham radio communications in the Santa Cruz school systems. It is in her work that Mary really sparkles. You see, she has some really strange ideas. She thinks our kids are rational human beings. She thinks that by listening to the younger inhabitants of this planet, we may discover things we have forgotten or never even knew. Mary believes that if enough of us (and she really means everyone in this us) get together and talk things over, we can solve any problem that we might confront. You know, I think she may be right. Mary is a Planetary Citizen. She knows that this entire planet is her Home. And as such, she would no more dump waste overboard from her boat, than she would in your (our?) living room. In Mary's words, her goal as a Planetary Citizen is, "To serve as an international network through which the unified thoughts and actions of Planetary Citizens are effectively working against such common threats as hunger, war, overpopulation, and pollution." You might expect a sermon from one of such lofty goals, but with Mary you get a smile and a warm glow. --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 315 1-03-92 8:06pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: People 2 of 4 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Mary works with kids.In a society filled with all types of discrimination Mary works with probably the most discriminated against minority, children. These children, by virtue of their naivatee, have been able to accomplish what adults have not. As proof of Mary's ideas, I offer what her students have accomplished. Children, Clean Water, & Ham Radio Mary teaches Ham Radio communication to children. Now, anyone who has taken an Amateur Radio exam from the FCC knows that these tests are tough. Many adults have trouble with the radio theory, law, and Morse code. Well, Mary's got children in their early teens passing these exams. But the Ham license is just the beginning for Mary's students. With the Ham license and equipment comes the ability to communicate with other Hams all over the World. It is this communication, and what may spring from it, that Mary and her students are really interested in. Consider this solitary example. Mary's students are concerned about the quality of water. Their idea was to set up an international teleconference via Ham radio to talk to other students about water quality. These students, all of Junior High school age or less, arranged an international conference between student Hams in Scotland, West Germany, New York, Canada, Denmark, Japan, Washington D.C., Arizona and finally Santa Cruz. The topic was water quality. The Santa Cruz students sent water test kits to all these locations. The students gathered around their radios with the results of the water tests they conducted in their individual locations. The students agreed that everyone would help the group that had the worst water to clean it up. As a 15 year old student, Betsy Baily put it, "We all agreed we would test our own water and start helping work on it. We wanted to cooperate globally to help whichever school has the worst problem, which turned out to be the school on the Indian reservation in Roosevelt Town, NY." The students discovered that the water supply to the Freedom School on the Mohawk Indian reservation in upstate New York was contaminated with lead and PCBs. The students at this school were slowly being poisoned every time they drank a glass of water. This was discovered by a group of children globally linked via radio! The pollution in this case is so severe that if a child had eaten as few as eight tomatoes from their school garden, it could have been fatal. The students were not content to just discover the pollution, they had to clean it up. And they were at least partially successful. They deluged the powers that be with letters and shamed them into acknowledging and fixing the problem. The Freedom school now has its drinking water trucked in from an uncontaminated source. Plans are underway to move the school to a more healthful site. All this accomplished by children using Ham radio to talk about water problems. --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 316 1-03-92 8:07pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: People 3 of 4 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Now children don't burst with political or social power. They don't even get to vote. But by the strength of their moral arguments, their organization, and their maturity, they succeeded in making real changes in the water pollution poisoning the students at the Freedom School. If a bunch of kids can accomplish this, then what can all of us together accomplish? It makes one wonder. The Agua Alegre-- Floating Self-sufficiency Mary's boat, a 35 foot wooden Alden sloop, is the focus of her activities. Mary's floating Home shares the same waters that nourish us all. Its power is the wind. When we visited Mary in Santa Cruz, we were treated to a short sail that gave us the photo you see on this month's cover. Well, sailing a boat is nothing new to me. But sitting and watching Mary's crew certainly was. None of the crew of the Agua Alegre (that's Spanish for Happy Water), on that day, were old enough to vote. Our skipper, Todd Meyers (KB6VOQ) was only seventeen years old and his crew (both Hams also) of two were both under 16 years of age. These youngsters not only sailed the boat, but amazed me with their grasp of ecology and their concern for our environment. Mary uses the Agua Alegre as a floating classroom. Her students learn ecology, sailing, navigation, and Ham radio while on board. Her students are allowed on cruises only if they are passing in their regular academic work. The student crews of the Agua Alegre maintain the boat themselves. The students raise the money for docking fees, food and operating expenses through their own labor at paper drives, raffles, and other money raising activities. Through sailing the Agua Alegre, Mary's students learn self-sufficiency. They stand watches, during which they, alone, are responsible for the safety and management of a sailboat under way. These lessons are not wasted on children. They are lessons we all must learn. These kids are lucky to have Mary there to give them the opportunity. So far Mary, her students and the Agua Alegre have completed four long distance cruises. Imagine Mary and her students sailing to such places as Venezuela and Alaska. The Redwood Youth Foundation So now you've got an idea of what Mary's doing. And maybe you've got a glimmer of why she's doing it. Well, here's the how. Communication is how Mary and her students accomplish their goals. To this end Mary has formed a non-profit organization to foster communication between children. Mary's hope for our future lies with our children. In Mary's words, "We are all one another's teacher and we become increasingly connected in the radio networks sharing communications skills with others who are cooperating to create a planet worthy of our children." --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 317 1-03-92 8:08pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: People 4 of 4 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Mary and the Redwood Youth Foundation work tirelessly. And I mean tirelessly, for after spending just 26 hours with Mary in Santa Cruz, I was tired enough to want to return to something easy like making a magazine! If you want to help out (and we really should) then get in touch with Mary Duffield (WA6KFA), 2355 Brommer Street #23, Santa Cruz, CA 95062 or call 408-462-0300. So what can ONE person really do, anyway? Well, one person can talk to another. And they can talk to others. Before we know it we've got thousands, nay millions, talking. Talking about our future and what we will experience when tomorrow becomes today. And it really doesn't matter who we are talking to. It may be a mover/shaker bursting with Worldly Power, or it may be a child with only the Power of youth. The concept is the same. By sharing our hopes, dreams, and nightmares we, all of us, just might succeed in creating a livable Home for us all. SIDEBAR The photos you see of the Agua Alegre and her crew were obtained by our intrepid Home Power Photographer- Brian Green. Brian is a landlubber, and his courage in climbing into an eight foot dingy, bouncing around in high seas, to capture the Agua Alegre is without parallel. While he got wet, he still smiled. Courtesy of and Copyright by Home Power Magazine --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 318 1-03-92 8:12pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Michael Favor Re: Turbines Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ MF> if been suffering from chronic curiosity to know how MF> your experiments turned out with the Tesla bladeless MF> turbine prototype. any news about it at all would be MF> welcome. i recently recieved a fresh copy of Lindsay's MF> technical books catalog (nov 91) and cant find the MF> information you mentioned you ordered from them. could MF> you possibly repost the title, and order numbers for MF> the tract, if it's not a lot of trouble? I hate to admitt it but the turbine project is sitting on the backburner for a while. I am still convinced that it is an potentially useful and efficient piece of hardware but other things (including our house hunt, classes at the local Junior college, changing over the BBS to more modern software and money) have kept me from pursueing it for the moment. The physical construction is going to have to wait until my finances improve a bit. The material for most of the turbine I can easily scrounge at work. However the rotor disks themselves are going to be pricey. My research indicates that the highest efficencies are only possible by keeping the disk spacing and thickness in a range forcing the fluid (air, steam, etc.) in the laminar flow range which entails having rotor disks and spacers of approximatly .012 inches or less and having quite a few of them. Stainless steel of 303 grade looks to be the best material to use (the best readily available and resonably affordable material). Unfortunatly this grade of stainless steel is difficult to get in the required thickness in a flat condition. What will be required is flat 303 stainless steel shim stock. Most shim stock of this thickness comes rolled, which is useless for this purpose. I have found a source for it in Los Angeles. A package of two sheets 6" wide and 24" long cost $22 and would yield 8, 5 inch dia. disks at a cost of a little less than $3 per disk. The design I have come up with entails having about 150 disks.....about $400 worth of material. That would be difficult to fit into the budget right now. The thickness issue is a critical one, otherwise we'd be spinning right now (frictional losses at the edge of the disk can really kill off the turbine's efficency). The best reference book on Tesla's turbine is published by: High Energy Enterprises, Inc. Box 5636 Security, Colorado 80931 The Title is "Boundary Layer Breakthru" by Jeff Hayes, ISBN 1-882137-01-9 I don't have Lindsay's latest catalogue handy but I believe they are now carrying it. I would give them a voice call and inquire. I paid $20 for my copy from the folks in Colorado and believe the postage and handling was another $3. It's a good start. The best hard technical information has been published in the ASME (American Society of Mechanical Engineers) Journal of Power over the years. The papers published by folks from the Univ. of Arizona and from Wright Patterson AFB in Ohio are of particular interest. You would have to go to a serious engineering library to find them though. I found 'em at U.C. Berkley........DCK --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 319 1-03-92 8:55pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Michael Favor Re: Steam Turbine Power, revisited Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ As an addendum to my last note about "the turbine project" I have been considering another approach. As a "engineering type" I tend to want optimal designs. Also, my initial interest was to build a solar-thermal-steam powerplant to power a vehicle to compete with the worlds best PV powered race cars in some of the many international competitions (being an old "pro-racer" this was particularly alluring-I love racing but cannot bring myself to participate considering the horrendous waste of resources and pollution that entails). However in the context of the home we are considering buying I've been thinking of a different approach. After our house fire of a couple years ago (a spark arrestor screen on the chimney rusted out and the shake roof...you can guess the rest) I really don't want to rely on a wood stove in the house for heat. I started thinking of having a solar thermal array heating a thermal mass located in an insulated block house (with wood fired backup) a bit away from the house and having a second heat exchanger embedded in the thermal mass with plumbing to the house for hydronic heating. Nice, clean, quiet and safe. The indoor heat exhangers, with thermostats and fans are readily available and fairly cheap from Graingers. I've seen oil fired boilers situated in a similar manner with steam heat plumbed into houses in Illinois. It really cuts back on the fire hazard of which I'm very concerned. It occured to me that my earlier appoach to solar-thermal steam power generated using the turbine might fit into this scheme quite nicely. It wouldn't necessarily have to be a super efficient system (the turbine generator) nor would I really have to make 4kW of power like I envisioned for the race car. With the property we're considering water is abundant so I wouldn't need to be concerned with recycling the water used via a closed loop condensing system (though the turbine exhaust, steam, could be used to good advantage heating the house, a horse shelter or greenhouse). 400 watts of power produced 4-5 hours a day would go a long way toward providing the power to charge the battery bank, the turbine could be smaller and cheaper, and the whole system would be cheaper and simpler. It would be a simple matter to have sensors buried in the thermal mass trigger a small water pump when the mass reached, say 350 degrees, the water sprayed into the embedded heat exchanger would flash to steam and power the turbine which would in turn spin a small alternator/generator. When the temperature dropped below 350 (an arbitrary number for now) the water pump would stop as would the turbine generator. As I mentioned before, other things have displaced this project in my list of priorities but I do look forward to renewing the project before long. I think it has promise for third world applications and could be far cheaper on a dollar/watt basis than photovoltaics (without the pollution that PV cell production also entails) and also employ far cheaper, simpler and less involved manufacturing techniques. Darn, this working for a living sure cuts into my experimenting time. Sure wish that "millionaire" guy that used to be on the tube years ago was around here today, or that I could get the tool I invented patented and licensed. I want to get to work on this!!!! (Dream on Kulha....(grin))...........DCK --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 320 1-03-92 9:47pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Broken Echo!!!! Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Somewhere along the line our echo is "busted"! I think that our backbone link at the western star isn't sending the echo to anywhere else. Recently I was contacted by someone in the equestrian (horse echo) who wondered where the moderator was. He subsquently sent me a pile of messages from the east coast which we never got here. Here an example of the "seen-by" routing info attached to one of them..... Jim Dunmyer > I know that you are the moderator of this echo but I > have not once seen a post from you in here. I was just Mike, Don seems to have disappeared from here for a while... --- OPMED 3.00 * Origin: EchoMaster (1:234/100) PATH: 234/100 1/211 13/13 260/260 I wondered what the hell was happening and now we know! I suspect when 1/21 1 told us to sever the link we had since we made the backbone we were in error work on getting this fixed pronto! P anyone else can shed any light here fee l free ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 321 12-18-91 12:43pm Area: Home Power From: Harvey Hazelett To: All Re: Tesla Free Energy Reciever Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Tesla BBS 407-957-6191 St. Cloud/Florida As the sysop, and serious Tesla enthusist, was wondering if anybody has considered some of Tesla's works as ways to beat the electric company? He worked in several ares the I'd suspect would be of interest, and will send some of my text files when I figure out a way to do it through the network. Tesla BBS is a Commodore 64 board, so it poses some interesting challenges... Anyway, around the time Dr. Tesla was working on methods of wireless transmission of power, he also developed recievers to go with the broadcast stage. Now, back at the turn of the century, radio was in its infancy so to speak, and came to be do to some of Tesla'a work towards wireless power transmissions. The point is this; back then, there were few radio waves in the airways, and now they are packed with transmissions. Since radio signals are electrical energy, and our recievers use a very small portion, wouldn't it mean that with a suitablle recieving unit, all that energy could be collect, stored and/or converted for home use? It should be perfectly legal, asone would not be stealing from the broadcasters, interfering with some lonely old ladies soaps. Also, there is the Tesla Bladeless Turbine, which Tesla created a nuber of years after the internal combustion engines were pretty much the industry standard. I've read several articles, and most agree that the Tesla Turbine is over 70% efficient with a very low level of emissions. It never interested an industry already commited to internal combustion, but I think in these times of limitted resources, serious pollution, and waste problems there is cause to check into. There is only one moving part in the whole thing, so servicing would be a breeze,,,change the bearings... I don't know how effiecent todays internal combustion is, but doubt that it is much more than 50%, and of course it scares me to attempt to do a tune up... --- TAGMAIL v2.41 * Origin: The Program Exchange (1:3633/133) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 322 12-23-91 3:52pm Area: Home Power From: Lawrence London To: ALL Re: Solar Electric awarded NASA contract (from Usenet, sci.space.news) Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Subject: NASA 90-1 Phase II Award Distributions Date: 22 Dec 91 06:38:45 GMT Followup-To: sci.space Organization: NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA DECEMBER 18, 1991 NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION SMALL BUSINESS INNOVATION RESEARCH (SBIR) PROGRAM PROPOSALS SELECTED FOR NEGOTIATION OF SBIR PHASE II CONTRACTS CALIFORNIA International Solar Electric Technology 8635 Aviation Boulevard Inglewood, CA 90301 Vijay K. Kapur 213-216-4427 Light-Weight, Flexible, Thin-Film Solar Cells for Space Applications --- * Origin: EARTH*Net*Home:SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ECHO*919-9293346 (1:151/502) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 323 12-23-91 4:53pm Area: Home Power From: Harvey Hazelett To: All Re: Hydrogen fuel cell Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I run Tesla BBS here in Florida, and occasionally call another board of the same name in Colorado, and pick up a few text files. Over the weekend I downloaded HYDROGEN.ZIP (156k worth). It turned out to be a presentation on a method for breaking the covalent bond between hydrogen and oxygen in water molecules. Big deal right, most kids do this in grade school with simple electrolysis... This is a faster, more productive method, and it sounds like an invention that could truely change the world. Imagine being able to convert you car to run off ordinary tap water, generate your own electricity for mere pennies per month, and how clean the comubstion of a hydrogen-oxygen mixture would be (water vapors as exhaust). Think of all the jobs the conversion process would create, and the money this country would save with our petroleum demands dropping by atleast 60%... I don't own an IBM computer, so I'm still waiting for somebody to help me out on the GIFs that came with the package, but the text portion more than made a believer of me, especially the patent transcripts. I've uploaded this package on the NO NAME BBS in Kissimme, Fl (407) 348-2006. Its 9600 baud, has several FIDO echos (not this one though), or you can call Tesla BBS, St. Cloud/Fl. (407) 957-6191 2400 baud Punter/Xmodem. And finally, there is also Tesla BBS in Colorado (719) 486-2775 (not sure the baud rate, but its an IBM board). HYDROGEN.ZIP contains 6 GIF files, the complete patent transcript, and another file from someone trying to replicate the device and spread the word around (public knowledge is the best defense to this idea being locked away in some executive's vault...). Its set up to display the text and GIFs automatically (I missed out on the luxary)... It seems quite possible, though I have no formal education in the field, I have always held a strong interest in science and technology, and read about these fields constantly. If you are really wanting an alternative to present energy sources, this would be atleast interesting reading, and well worth checking into. The information provides many references, and sources for further information, including how to recieve copies of the patent, articles written, independent test results, and so forth. It this hadn't been so well documented, and a strong feeling that I've read something in one of the science/electronics type magazines, probly wouldn't be going to all this hype. If seperating water molecules into its components can be done on such a scale, there would be a lot of potential for major profits for those who get in on it early, and a good living for those who get into the constuction and conversion fields after its introduction in to the consumer markets. Something like this would appeal to most anyone concerned with the enviroment, depleting resourses, and our energy dependency on the oil producing nations. Think of no need to buy fossel fuels, generating your own electricity, heating your home in the winter, cooling it in the summer. All for pennies compared to the current methods, keep American resource here at home, save the enviroment, generate jobs... The time is ripe for such a major change, and a chance to once again free ourselves of depending on forgien nations... --- TAGMAIL v2.41 * Origin: The Program Exchange (1:3633/133) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 324 12-25-91 6:03pm Area: Home Power From: Harvey Hazelett To: All Re: Energy? Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Is this echo open to all alternate energy sources, or just solor power? Perhaps the things I've posted were just too out of the ordinary to attract attention... I suppose that since I'm a 'Teslaphile', my interests tend toward that area, but there are so many other promising areas of research to just concentrate on solar, which I have seen too much of great interest. I get more the impression that the equipment and materials are pretty expensive, take up a lot of space, and very low output, even on sunny days. Now, I'm sure all this research has a purpose out in space, but figured we were searching for a more practical solution here on Earth... --- TAGMAIL v2.41 * Origin: The Program Exchange (1:3633/133) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 325 12-29-91 11:47am Area: Home Power From: Harvey Hazelett To: Danny Burdick Re: Energy? Attr: Rcvd ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Danny, would enjoy checking out your board, and would most likely want to exchange a few text files from my board. Unfortunately, you didn't leave a number for me to call. I didn't want to scare anybody away or anything, just wanted to generate some activity. There isn't too much interest in technical things locally, and try to keep the long-distance to a minimal, but do call out of state to a few select boards, that carry interesting text. Will check into send my text files via FIDO. Not sure how it will work out, but will copy them off my board in a little while, and see if this new terminal will allow me to send them as if I were typing them. Some boards and terminals don't seem to work out that way, but using different systems, so perhaps it'll work out. I'm hooked on Tesla type technology, the kind sort of forgotten because its just weird, most people think its fantasy or their isn't much potential for major proffits. Tesla had some very interesting, and I think very possible works, not to mention that most everything he produced, was efficient, economical, and none poluting. All of these charactoristics are becoming of greater importance. i don't know of how much use Tesla's lost inventions are in this day and age, since its been nearly 100 years. The methods he used to design his machines will never be out-dated. He wasn't concerned about time, costs, or proffits, but simple to provide mankind with a better way of living, clean and efficiently with minimal waste... --- TAGMAIL v2.41 * Origin: The Program Exchange (1:3633/133) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 326 1-03-92 11:03am Area: Home Power From: Michael Favor To: Don Kulha Re: The Silly/Busy Season Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Hi Folks....Your moderator has been pretty quiet lately; we recently switched local net-echo-coordinators here, and i havent seen any messages since then. is this echo link still intact? also, did you see my message here dated 12/28? i'm afraid your reply may have been lost in the switchover. pax, michael. --- Opus-CBCS 1.73a * Origin: Humanity Net BBS, Chico CA, 916-891-1920 (1:119/4.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 327 1-06-92 11:53am Area: Home Power From: Lawrence London To: Don Kulha Re: Broken Echo!!!! Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Somewhere along the line our echo is "busted"! I think > that our backbone link at the western star isn't sending the > echo to anywhere else. Recently I was contacted by someone > in the equestrian (horse echo) who wondered where the > moderator was. He subsquently sent me a pile of messages > from the east coast which we never got here. Here an example > of the "seen-by" routing info attached to one of them..... I got 52 messages in HOMEPOWR today, the above from you included; the first I have seen from your system (in HOMEPOWR) in months. Regarding the broken HOMEPOWR echolink I sent you routed netmail recently and crash netmail as well; couldn't connect with your system on the latter. Let me know if you receive this post. --- * Origin: EARTH*Net*Home:SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ECHO*919-9293346 (1:151/502) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 328 1-06-92 11:53am Area: Home Power From: Lawrence London To: Don Kulha Re: Broken Echo!!!! Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Somewhere along the line our echo is "busted"! I think > that our backbone link at the western star isn't sending the > echo to anywhere else. Recently I was contacted by someone > in the equestrian (horse echo) who wondered where the > moderator was. He subsquently sent me a pile of messages > from the east coast which we never got here. Here an example > of the "seen-by" routing info attached to one of them..... I got 52 messages in HOMEPOWR today, the above from you included; the first I have seen from your system (in HOMEPOWR) in months. Regarding the broken HOMEPOWR echolink I sent you routed netmail recently and crash netmail as well; couldn't connect with your system on the latter. Let me know if you receive this post. --- * Origin: EARTH*Net*Home:SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ECHO*919-9293346 (1:151/502) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 329 1-10-92 12:53am Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Michael Favor Re: Turbines Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ MF> is there any particular reason that the disks must be MF> stanless steel? wouldnt any stiff material work, such MF> as aluminum? maybe even glass? i hope you will forgive MF> my ignorance if this is a totally stupid question. MF> do you have any estimate of what the other materials MF> might cost? i would be willing to put up the $400 if i MF> was pretty sure i could get a working prototype out of MF> the deal. sure, its alot of money for me, too, and it MF> would mean living without a certain list of toys and MF> luxuries, but i see it as an investment, both economic MF> and ethical. MF> My investigations indicate that the disc material must be very strong to handle high rotational speeds and must be very corrosion resistant. Disk speed should run around 15-20,000 rpm. Calculations by a friend (an engineer) said that 6061-T6 aluminum disks 5" diameter would blow at 5,000. Glass would meet the corroision criteria but would also blow up at low speed and glass .010 inch thick would be exceedingly fragile. 400 series stainless steel would work (though it's no cheaper) and is hardenable but the heat treatment would likely warp them badly and it oxidizes (rusts) fairly easy. There are better materials than 303 stainless (like titanium) but if you think the stainless disks are expensive.... No, I think those are very good questions. There isn't a doubt in my mind that the turbine works and that efficencies of 20-30% are easily attainable even with a less than optimum design. There is lots of good, hard nosed scientific data indicating it works and that efficencies of up to 60% are quite possible. I found the info you sent which was somehow misplaced before it was opened. I'll be sending you copies of some of the info I have which you'll find encouraging. At this point in time due to the crush of work decending on me I'm not commiting to a time frame for sending it (gotta dig up my data) and I don't want to be spending anyone elses money either. It would be discouraging to fire it up for the first time, over rev it and destroy the disks ya know? Solar thermal steam power works. LUZ has proved that and the data I have on the disk turbine conclusively proves it also works. I may be hacking a turbine together before long using .022 thick disks. I can buy this material in large flat sheets which would lower the cost quite a bit though efficency would be down in the 30% range at best. The LUZ approach and the one I would/may pursue at some point entailed enclosing the paladium coated stainless collector tube in an evacuated pyrex tube. The collector array for a stationary system wouldn't necessarily need that level of complexity. As I mentioned I'm rethinking my approach and priorities. I was hoping for an overall system efficency of 35-45%....ie., of the 1070 watts of potential power collectable (noon summer sun) re sq. meter I wanted to get 350-450 watts of energy. If we are willing to accept the 12-15% efficency of PV cells then the overall system complexity and cost could be lower. I too feel it's definitly worth pursuing and plan to time and dollars permitting. At something beyond the pure prototype stage it would be cheaper than PV's. Whether it's ever commercially viable is another thing especially considering the laws as regards boiler operation which I feel probably apply here. Time will tell. I'll try to get my data off to you before too long Michael.....DCK --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 330 1-07-92 09:05am Area: Home Power From: Scott Parks To: Danny Burdick Re: Cross-feed about Solar Technology Attr: Rcvd ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Even if they could get the efficiency up to 100% [which I > believe is > physically impossible, maybe not], you would still need 13.3 > km^2, I > believe. That is leaving the other factors in like the > spacing > factor > and storage factor (factor of 6). > Sorry folks....but it was so interesting....or rather perked > up the topic that I couldn't help but cross-post...if for no > other reason but the names...places...and contacts that might > be made using the info.... > Danny Burdick > "Energy" Danny .... a friendly hint? Since you run RA and maybe TopEd, you can configure Qedit as the second editor. It helps cross-posts alot with the CTL-B (in Qedit) to reformat messages by paragraph. I just learned this a few weeks ago ..... Take care. --- GEcho/beta * Origin: The HELIX | NW Environment | HST*DS | (206)782-3365 (1:343/74) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 331 1-07-92 02:44am Area: Home Power From: Tomas Hood To: Don Kulha Re: HOMEPOWR Links Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ DK | Howdy folks, this is your long lost moderator checking in. Hello, from Olympia, WA! --- GEcho/beta # SLMR 2.1 # DIDACHEE PAS : Quicunque vult : ICDM IHQ, 1:352/777 * Origin: Let's hook 'er up! <> Oh NO! (1:352/777) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 332 1-06-92 9:25pm Area: Home Power From: Jim Dunmyer To: Don Kulha Re: HOMEPOWR Links Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > messages which helped me figure out the problem (many > thanks Mike). Apparently I need to get in touch with > Martin at 1/211 or someone to get us all reconnected. We We're now receiving you, Don. FWIW: Martin Belcke, R11EC is at 11/1, although I believe the old 1/211 is still in the N/L. Good to hear from you again at long last!! <> --- OPMED 3.00 * Origin: EchoMaster (1:234/100) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 333 1-10-92 10:06pm Area: Home Power From: Joel Kerr To: Wendell Quillen Re: Microwave Cooling Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ hi Wendell there was a blurb in design news on a acoustic refrigeration system. seems to me that low freq. would be more eff. than hi freq Joel Kerr --- QuickBBS 2.75 * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 334 1-08-92 9:57pm Area: Home Power From: Mike May To: Tomas Hood Re: HOMEPOWR Links Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ TH> DK | Howdy folks, this is your long lost moderator checking in. TH> TH> Hello, from Olympia, WA! Now if we can really get Don, linked all the way through to the east coast without calling my BBS in Western NY then we will be all set. --- Echodor 3.10a * Origin: Mike's Maze - Webster NY (716)872-0128 HST (1:260/202.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 336 1-10-92 4:04pm Area: Home Power From: Scott Parks To: Mike May Re: HOMEPOWR Links Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ * In a message originally to Tomas Hood, Mike May said: > TH> Hello, from Olympia, WA! > Now if we can really get Don, linked all the way through to > the east coast without calling my BBS in Western NY then we > will be all set. Just got word from the LA area that HP may be distributed there soon. Just that 512 limit I guess. --- GEcho/beta * Origin: The HELIX | NW Environment | HST*DS | (206)782-3365 (1:343/74) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 337 1-10-92 05:23am Area: Home Power From: Mike May To: Lawrence London Re: Broken Echo!!!! Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ LL> > Somewhere along the line our echo is "busted"! I think LL> > that our backbone link at the western star isn't sending the LL> > echo to anywhere else. Recently I was contacted by someone LL> > in the equestrian (horse echo) who wondered where the LL> > moderator was. He subsquently sent me a pile of messages LL> > from the east coast which we never got here. Here an example LL> I got 52 messages in HOMEPOWR today, the above from you included; LL> the first I have seen from your system (in HOMEPOWR) in months. LL> Regarding the broken HOMEPOWR echolink I sent you routed netmail LL> recently and crash netmail as well; couldn't connect with your LL> system on the latter. LL> Let me know if you receive this post. Well I still have not seen one from Don (from his system), He did call here to mine and leave one though. He is working on the fix for it though. =M=M= --- Echodor 3.10a * Origin: Mike's Maze - Webster NY (716)872-0128 HST (1:260/202.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 338 1-12-92 12:25pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Harvey Hazelett Re: Tesla's Contributions Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ HH> Also, there is the Tesla Bladeless Turbine, which Tesla created a nuber HH> of years after the internal combustion engines were pretty much the HH> industry standard. I've read several articles, and HH> most agree that the Tesla Turbine is over 70% HH> efficient with a very low level of emissions. It never HH> interested an industry already commited to internal HH> combustion, but I think in these times of limitted HH> resources, serious pollution, and waste problems there HH> is cause to check into. There is only one moving HH> part in the whole thing, so servicing would be a HH> breeze,,,change the bearings... I don't know how HH> effiecent todays internal combustion is, but doubt that HH> it is much more than 50%, and of course it scares me HH> to attempt to do a tune up... Actually the normal gas engine is around 22-26% efficient at best with diesels running around 35%. As for whether Tesla's turbine would be much better running in a mode consuming the the heat and pressure developed by burning a fuel I haven't seen much info there. The highest verifiable efficency I have seen for his disk turbine is about 58% by the folks at Wright Patterson AFB. Their application was to use it as a pump. It is a fascinating device. I think that using it as a compound deice, with multiple stages on a common shaft as Tesla suggested might be the optimum design for a fuel burner. DCK --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 339 1-12-92 12:39pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Harvey Hazelett Re: Energy? Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ HH> Is this echo open to all alternate energy sources, or HH> just solor power? Perhaps the things I've posted HH> were just too out of the ordinary to attract HH> attention... HH> I suppose that since I'm a 'Teslaphile', my HH> interests tend toward that area, but there are so HH> many other promising areas of research to just HH> concentrate on solar, which I have seen too much of HH> great interest. I get more the impression that the HH> equipment and materials are pretty expensive, take up HH> a lot of space, and very low output, even on sunny HH> days. Now, I'm sure all this research has a purpose HH> out in space, but figured we were searching for a HH> more practical solution here on Earth... Harvey, as the moderator of this conference I would like to say that I think your posts so far have been appropriate. Oh, I don't want to turn this into the Tesla echo but as far as discussion of Tesla's inventions as pertain to energy go I think that they need to be reexamined. Quite a few of his inventions were roughly dismissed offhand during his time. This echo is about alternative, renewable, clean and other forms of energy. Oh, the primary focus has been on independant power production for folks living "off-the-grid" and I wouldn't want to discuss *all* of Tesla's numerous inventions here but those that hold some promise of helping us citizen's of earth develop a rational approach to energy production for the future are fine. There are some folks that will dismiss offhand any ideas with the name Tesla associated with them (after all, in some respects he was quite a wacko) but I think they will be given reasonable examination here. Most of this echo's participants have proven to be open minded, innovative, ecologically concerned and intelligent folks. You'll find HOMEPOWR to be a breath of fresh air as far as echos go. It's really been a quite heartening experience to me. Don Kulha, Moderator --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 340 1-12-92 12:58pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Lawrence London Re: Broken Echo!!!! Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ LL> I got 52 messages in HOMEPOWR today, the above from you included; LL> the first I have seen from your system (in HOMEPOWR) in months. LL> Regarding the broken HOMEPOWR echolink I sent you routed netmail LL> recently and crash netmail as well; couldn't connect with your LL> system on the latter. LL> Let me know if you receive this post. Received via the echo and also your message of 12/24 (netmail) was also received....thank goodness. Part of the problem came about when I severed some links back east and others when I changed my frontend/BBS/ecomail processor software. I think these are behind us now. David James at the western star contacted George at 13/13 through which we are now linked, solidly. My apologies to all for these problems we were haing. A bit more diligence on my part would have helped us avoid all this. I just tried to do too much at once (changing the BBS around, rerouting the echo,conducting my personal business, researching a patent, taking classes, projects at the lab, etc.) and fell a bit behind.....DCK --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 341 1-12-92 1:07pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Tomas Hood Re: HOMEPOWR Links Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ TH> Hello, from Olympia, WA! TH> --- GEcho/beta TH> # SLMR 2.1 # DIDACHEE PAS : Quicunque vult : ICDM IHQ, 1:352/777 Welcome Tomas! Your timing is very good as we've just gotten some problems sorted out and things seem to be going very well now. We look forward to your participation......DCK --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 342 1-12-92 1:12pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Scott Parks Re: HOMEPOWR Links Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ SP> Just got word from the LA area that HP may be distributed there SP> soon. Just that 512 limit I guess. Excellent news Scott. Now that things are going smoothly again they should find this a vital and interesting use of bandwidth. Thanks again for your help. DCK --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 343 1-12-92 1:15pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Mike May Re: HOMEPOWR Links Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ MM> Now if we can really get Don, linked all the way MM> through to the east coast without calling my BBS in MM> Western NY then we will be all set. It's a done deal thanks to your help, George Peace at 13/13 and David James at the western star. The Fun resumes! DCK --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 344 1-12-92 1:17pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Jim Dunmyer Re: HOMEPOWR Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ JD> Good to hear from you again at long last!! JD> <> A great pleasure I can assure you....feels like coming home! DCK --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 345 1-12-92 1:44pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Boat 1 of 4 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ A Floating Wind System Richard Perez For every stationary home power producer there are many who roll down the road or float on the water. Many RVers have written in requesting articles about home power systems that move. Well, here's a mobile wind system that not only makes its own electricity, but also its own motive power. The Agua Alegre The Agua Alegre is a 35 foot long wooden sailboat. This Alden designed sloop was built in the mid-1950s and usually is docked in Santa Cruz, California. This yacht, like most boats, is a self-contained energy unit. All electrical energy used on board is produced on board. During long cruises on sailboats, electrical power generation can be a very real problem. The wind provides the motive power for the boat and the auxiliary engine isn't operated for many days at a time. The Agua Alegre shares many problems and solutions with land based systems. Every Watt-hour removed from her batteries must be replaced. Electrical energy in land based homes is important. We rely on this energy for comfort and entertainment. The situation aboard a boat is much more serious. Much of the electricity used on the Agua Alegre is for critical services essential to the safety of the boat and her crew. The Agua Alegre's Electrical Consumption Most of the energy used on board is for essential navigation and communication devices. Aboard the Agua Alegre battery stored energy supplies the radar, LORAN, depth sounder, marine VHF radio and several Ham radios. Running, deck and cabin lights are powered from the battery's stored energy. The anti-electrolysis system protecting the boat's hull from corrosion and the bilge pumps are also electrical consumers. All electrical consumption aboard is 12 VDC. The Agua Alegre consumes no 120 vac power and is not equipped with an inverter or ac generator. This is in keeping with the simplicity of the boat, which is not equipped with such things as microwaves, refrigeration, or other electrical luxuries. According to the Agua Alegre's skipper, "If you want to survive and have fun at sea, keep it simple." --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 346 1-12-92 1:45pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Boat 2 of 4 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ The Agua Alegre's Power Sources The primary power source for the Agua Alegre is the wind generator pictured below. This simple unit was hand made for the Agua Alegre's skipper, Mary Duffield, by her friend, Ted Baer (2120 N. Pacific Ave #61, Santa Cruz, CA 95060 or call 408-426-1304). The wind generator uses simple components like a bicycle wheel assembly and a permanent magnet DC generator to directly recharge the batteries. During the time I spent on board the wind generator was continually operating. Eventhough the generator only supplies a few amperes to the batteries, it is almost constantly operating. It supplies more than enough energy to light and maintain the boat when docked. In fact, while docked Mary doesn't even bother to plug into shore power. While sailing the wind generator produces enough energy for intermittent radar operation and constant operation of communication equipment. The second power source aboard the Agua Alegre is her diesel auxiliary engine. When operating, this engine spins a 50 ampere alternator. In the days before the Agua Alegre was equipped with wind power, the diesel had to be run every few days while the boat was at sea. In order to shorten the periods of engine operation just to recharge batteries, Mary installed a Mk. VI Field Controller (see Home Power #2, page 23) as a replacement for the standard voltage regulator. This field controller enables faster and more efficient refilling of the batteries because it is both amperage and voltage adjustable by the user. During the four years that the Mk. VI has lived in the Agua Alegre's engine compartment it has done its job without any problems. Mary is considering adding a PV or two panel to the Agua Alegre's electrical system. There are times when the wind completely stops and the boat is becalmed. In this case, a PV panel could supply the electricity essential to navigation and communication without running the diesel auxiliary. During our visit to the Agua Alegre, I checked out many sailboats on the Santa Cruz Yacht Harbor. I was surprised not to see a single PV panel anywhere. In this, the "salties" could learn a thing or two from their landlocked RV cousins. --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 347 1-12-92 1:46pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Boat 3 of 4 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Energy Storage+ The Batteries The Agua Alegre is equipped with two completely separate battery banks. This approach always assures one full battery pack to start the engine, and is common in most mobile systems. A special switch allows the engine to charge or be started from either or both battery packs. Each battery pack is composed of marine, lead+acid, batteries and has a capacity of 220 ampere-hours at 12 VDC. These batteries are securely mounted in waterproof cases, low and in the stern of the boat. Placement of batteries in any moving vehicle, especially sailboats, is critical. Since the batteries are very heavy, they should be located as low as possible and as close to the vehicle's center of gravity as possible. The System The Agua Alegre is a wonderous and harmonious system. Brian Green and I spent the night aboard, safely tucked in her wooden belly. A small storm was brewing and the wind machine on the fantail was working overtime. The 2 meter ham radio squaked softly in the background. As I went to sleep, thoughts of the power of the wind went through my mind. What a wonderful planet we live on. Nature is very kind to the Agua Alegre, she moves her through the water and supplies the energy to keep her batteries full. I had very pleasant dreams. (oops....guess there are only 3 parts to this one so there won't be a part 4 of 4....Sorry) Courtesy of and Copyright by Home Power Magazine --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 348 1-12-92 1:49pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: The Wiz... Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ There's a person, only known as the Wiz who writes for Home Power. They only write a short article for each issue and the following is one from Home Power #5.... Resources The Wiz What can we say about our natural resources. First, the classical resources such as coal, oil, gas, and minerals are being rapidly depleted. Also, many of these resources as well as nuclear power are too polluting to be used as they are now. Alternative sources of energy exist in solar, wind, water, and wave technologies. We must also look at regenerative biological resources. If the present rate of deforestation and topsoil erosion continues, our planet may soon turn into one big desert. Human technology has interfaced with the self-regenerating, self-regulating biological, chemical, and physical systems of Nature. The solution to this dilemma exists in the development of science and technology to the point where they can produce such systems. These systems would not only have to provide the necessary resources for human civilization but would also have to interface in such a way with the natural systems so as to provide for the continued viability of the planetary ecology. What of human resources? The solution to this problem lies in the education of our children. We must stop stuffing their heads with data. The data exists. We must instead teach them to learn. We need to develop their ability to relate facts and experiences in both an intra and inter disciplinary manner. Simply put, we have to develop their capacity to directly process information. We need to create not intellect but intelligence and imaginative creativity. We must give birth to the magical mystic children who can bring to fruition all of humanity's finest dreams. --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 349 1-12-92 1:56pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Happenings Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Courtesy of the Folks at Home Power magazine I'm posting the list of AE events, workshops and groups from HP #26.... Big Island Renewable Energy Fair, Feb 8&9, 1992. Contact Pahoa Business Assoc. at POB 1189, Pahnoa HI 96778 How-To and Hands on Solar Workshops Passive Solar Design for Professionals, Jan 13-23 Heating the Energy Eff. Home, Jan 27-Feb 20 Solar Building Skills, Mar 2-Apr 30 Practical Hydrogen, May 11-14 Advanced Micro Hydro May 18-21 Wind Power May 26-29 Photovoltaic System design and Installation, July 6-17 Advanced PV for Remote Homes, July 20-30 Solar Technology Institute, POB 1115, Carbondale CO 81623, 303.963.0715 Hands on Solar Workshops in Maine Maine Solar Energy Assoc., RFD Box 751 Addison ME 04606, 207.497.2204 Electric Vehicle Club in Oregon Lon Gillias, P.O. Box 347, Amity OR 97101, 503.835.1212 4th Annual Tour de Sol Electric/Solar Vehicle Rally - May 1992 North East Sustainable Energy Assoc., 413.774.6051 Minnesota Energy Council - Conferences on new technology in Energy and enviornmental management for housing and buildings Roger Peterson, Minnesota Energy Council, Box 8222, St. Paul MN 55108 612.378.2973 Solar Electric Classes in Nevada, Feb, Mar., May 1992 Send SASE to Solar Advantage, 4410 N. Rancho Dr. #148 Las Vegas NV 89130, 702.645.6571 American Solar Energy Society, Conference June 13-18, Solar '92 (Florida) ASES, 2400 Central Ave, STe G-1, Boulder CO 80301 Voice: 303.443.3130, Fax: 303.443.3212 Electric Auto Assoc., North San Francisco Bay Chapter Third Saturday Each Month, Citibank Conference Room, Novato CA Andy Clary, 1710 Greeneitch Ave., Santa Rosa CA 95401, 707.526.7692 Sun Day 1992, Ongoing Awareness Projects in many areas Sun Day 1992, 215 Pennsylvania Ave SE, Washington DC 20003, 202.546.4996 --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 350 1-12-92 2:28pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Home Power Magazine Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Periodically I like to praise and publish info on Home Power Magazine. They provide a lot of the info I post here, gave us the inspiration to start up this echo, print a list of participating BBS systems so folks can join in and publish a damn good magazine. They have encouraged and provided a rallying point for the Alternative energy community for many years and as such are very important to this movement. The magazine is fascinating and provides info on both commercial and home brewed systems hard to find anywhere else. Subscriptions to their magazine run $10/yr for second class delivery or $25 for first class (US Zip codes). They publish 6 issues a year, which run about 100 pages each and are professionally produced. Call them for info on delivery outside the U.S. Home Power, POB 130, Hornbrook CA 96044, 916-475-3179 P.S.-I've received a couple notes questioning my wisdom of promoting their magazine in this echo since they are a commercial organization. My feeling is that access to information is vital to the AE community and they provide a bunch of it. They go out of their way to promote AE and AE organizations. The magazine is doing well but doesn't really provide a "living" for Richard and Karen just yet...it's truely a labor of love. They aren't trying to "get rich" off our community and are some of the nicest folks I've ever met. They deserve our support and provide a great product and service to us. If you decide to subscribe let 'em know you use our echo.....Thanks, DCK --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 352 1-12-92 11:25pm Area: Home Power From: Lawrence London To: ALL Re: Photovoltaic system design software (from Engineering forum on ISAAC) Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I S A A C - Text of Selected Entry Page 1 of 4 ----------------------------------------- Title: PHOTOVOLTAIC system design / simulation software Forum: Engineering From: mlorenze Date: Monday 18 Nov 91 12:44:38 PST Package name and version number: PV COMPARE version 1.03 Academic category: Package description: Photovoltaic system simulation and design software. Photovoltaics make electricity from sunlight. Other keywords: Solar Developer Name: April Lorenzen Affiliation: Published date: October 1991 Public domain? NO Copyrighted? YES Price: $5 for disk from author, if you use it registration is $25 Memory required: program is 150K, memory usage unknown Other hardware requirements: runs on any IBM PC, etc. Operating systems the software uses: DOS Other software required: none sher/Distributor: Name: April Lorenzen Address: POB 293 Jamestown, RI 02835 Phone: (401) 423-3939 or leave message in the CAD conference of The Depot BBS (717) 853-3599 Conditions of use: Shareware, must register if used for any purpose beyond a one time evaluation Site license policy: Contact author Support: Reasonable telephone support to registered users, or by BBS. I S A A C - Text of Selected Entry Page 1 of 3 --------------------------------------- Title: Re: PHOTOVOLTAIC system design / simulation software Forum: Engineering From: mlorenze Date: Saturday 11 Jan 92 16:01:02 PST The program simulates the interaction of PV modules, battery (or Maximum Power Point Tracker, with or w/o AC inverter), wire used to connect the above, and other resistance and/or diode voltage drops between the PV array and battery (or inverter). You describe the system ( number of modules in parallel/series, distance from array to battery, cost for one module, battery voltage (or MPPT efficiency %), etc. You choose a module type (such as ARCO M55). The program uses I-V curve data for that specific PV module to calculate how many useable watts would be produced, what the optimum wire gauge would be, what the voltage drops would be, cost per useable watt, total system cost, etc. This program uses a new concept for choosing optimum wire size and module type, as presented in a paper at the 22nd IEEE Photovoltaic Specialists Conference. Just send me some token amount of money to cover shipping and the cost of the disk, and I will send it to you. You need an IBM compatible, any will work. April Lorenzen, POB 293, Jamestown RI 02835 Phone: 401-423-3939 If you don't mind spending for long distance, you can download my program and leave messages on The Depot BBS (717) 853-3599. I do get my messages there about once a week. --- * Origin: EARTH*Net*Home:SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ECHO*919-9293346 (1:151/502) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 353 1-11-92 08:32am Area: Home Power From: Harvey Hazelett To: Michael Favor Re: Tesla Turbine? Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Somebody is actually building a Tesla Turbine? Wow, its something I've dreamed of, but figured I'd need to buy some machinist tools, and of course learn to use them. I've read about the turbine for years, have a few books, even a Text file or two... But, no serious plans or diagrams. Was wondering if these are availiable from some place, and also about how much its costing to build the Tesla Turbine. I would love to put one in a car, in place of the current internal combustion... --- T.A.G. 2.6 Standard * Origin: The Program Exchange (1:3633/133@FIDONET.ORG) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 354 1-11-92 08:44am Area: Home Power From: Harvey Hazelett To: Danny Burdick Re: Text files Attr: Rcvd ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ *** Quoting Danny Burdick to Harvey Hazelett dated 01-05-92 *** > * In a message originally to All, Harvey Hazelett said: > > > Here is a list of text files availiable on Tesla BBS (407) > > 957-6191 > Thanks for the interest. I can't enter Fido, as I'm running a small BBS in a small town. Its run on a Commodore 64 with a 20 meg HD, at 2400 baud. Many of the files are small enough to send through fido, as I had to break them up for sending through Network-64. I downloaded quite a few huge ones from Tesla BBS in Colorado (not sure if its on Fido, IBM though...). All this stuff has interested me for years, especially since learning we live in a country motivated by capital gains, and minimal financial out lays... Hence, many great ideas have died do to the lack of potential profits, or the threat to existing technology, no matter how old and out dated (costs big bucks for a major change over..). It'll be a long while before industry can be made to adopt more efficient methods, but it should bar the individual from investigating and initiating more efficient energy methods for personal use, perhaps create an new industry as a result. This was my main reason for starting a BBS, unfortunately the locals have neve shown more than a polite interest, which is okay, I know these things aren't for most people, and the few I have reached in the past 4 years have made it worthwhile. Perhaps one of the local SYSOPS of an IBM board will allow me to send them all up, and he could Xfer them to an IBM format disk or ZIP them for you to DL at 9600+ baud... I only have Punter and Xmodem crc, both are slow and not too popular, but if you are patient, and can afford the L-D, then come check them out. The new user level allows access to the text area, you just won't be able to download. There is a guest account set up for sysops, but I don'T like posting it public, locally... --- T.A.G. 2.6 Standard * Origin: The Program Exchange (1:3633/133@FIDONET.ORG) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 355 1-11-92 09:01am Area: Home Power From: Harvey Hazelett To: All Re: Tesla Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Really liked seeing some messages on one of my favorite topics. Will see about sending out some of those text files through FIDO, send me a note if there is anything you wish to see right off. I think most will fit in the message editor, and will try the Tesla Turbine files first... --- T.A.G. 2.6 Standard * Origin: The Program Exchange (1:3633/133@FIDONET.ORG) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 357 1-11-92 12:13pm Area: Home Power From: Al Heirsch To: ALL Re: Homepower Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I am looking for information on creating power for my home. Does anyone have information or know where I can with this type of information? --- QM v1.00 * Origin: Three Kingdoms (1:396/27.5) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 358 1-13-92 06:57am Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Al Heirsch Re: Homepower Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AH> I am looking for information on creating power for my AH> home. Does anyone have information or know where I AH> can with this type of information? AH> By the time you read this you'll probably have seen enough posts to convince you that you've found the right avenue for what you want and you have! There are many Alternative Energy systems products vendors out there and it has become a fairly mature technology. I posted contact info on Home Power mag yesterday so that should reach you before this does...it's an excellent resource especially if you are new to the field. I don't know where you are located but a couple good vendors are: Real Goods, 966-e Mazzoni St., Ukiah, CA 95482, 800.762.7325 They will send you a free small catalog if you call and request it but if you send them $14 you'll receive their huge catalog which is quite an education on Home Made power (400 pages, 8.5"X11") Kansas Wind Power, Route 1-HP, Holton, KS 66436, 913.364.4407 Catalog is $3. They sell everything from Windpower equipment to Photovoltaic modules and super efficient refridgerators, plus deal in used stuff. Most libraries will have some general info on how this type of equipment works in general but to get the latest info on the current crop of AE (alternative energy) hardware the best sources are Home Power magazine and the catalogs of the top vendors which usually contain a primer on the types of stuff they offer. You didn't mention what you hope to do as far as home made power went (what you want to power/whether you have utility serviced power already/how much power you need/the sources you want to use, ie., wind, solar, hydro, generators, etc.) but if you'll expand on this the folks here may be able to assist you get started. The sky is the limit, literally. You can build a system to provide enough power for lighting, a radio or TV on up to systems that will provide as much as you could ever use. Home made equipment is one option and for the most part is a viable approach or you can just buy what you need. You're getting into AE at a good time! DCK --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 359 1-13-92 07:31am Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Harvey Hazelett Re: Tesla Turbine? Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ HH> Somebody is actually building a Tesla Turbine? Wow, HH> its something I've dreamed of, but figured I'd need to HH> buy some machinist tools, and of course learn to use HH> them. I've read about the turbine for years, have a HH> few books, even a Text file or two... But, no serious HH> plans or diagrams. Was wondering if these are HH> availiable from some place, and also about how much its HH> costing to build the Tesla Turbine. I would love to There is at least one company that builds them and a lot of research is still ongoing. The term turbine is a general one and doesn't necessarily apply to a powerplant. Most of the work done on these apply to using them as a pump or as a geothermal/solar steam using turbine. I've only seen one reference in current literature to using them as portable power plants and I doubt it would be appro for a vehicle. Most of the work being done with them is aimed at pumping applications for which they offer some unique advantages. You would need to have deep pockets indeed to build one and debug it for use in a car if you were hoping to better the efficency of a plain old gas IC engine. I am getting a bit off topic here so I'll have to slap my hand (being the moderator and all). It's appro to discuss tesla's turbine in the context of power production but the other stuff (pumping applications) is a bit off. My previous (recent) posts on this pretty much cover it. If my continuing research unearths anything I'll post it here. DCK --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 361 1-13-92 2:54pm Area: Home Power From: Lawrence London To: Don Kulha Re: Broken Echo!!!! Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > David James at the western star contacted George at > 13/13 through which we are now linked, solidly. My apologies Wonderful! I received your message today and others in HP by way of 13/13 (I assume) and my immediate uplinks. > just tried to do too much at once (changing the BBS around, > rerouting the echo,conducting my personal business, > researching a patent, taking classes, projects at the lab, > etc.) and fell a bit behind.....DCK Impressive! Best of luck with all of it. And thanks again for HOMEPOWR, a key participant in the emerging world of electronic access to information (and information alternative technology folks most want to see). --- * Origin: EARTH*Net*Home:SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ECHO*919-9293346 (1:151/502) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 363 1-12-92 11:25pm Area: Home Power From: Lawrence London To: ALL Re: Photovoltaic system design software (from Engineering forum on ISAAC) Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I S A A C - Text of Selected Entry Page 1 of 4 ----------------------------------------- Title: PHOTOVOLTAIC system design / simulation software Forum: Engineering From: mlorenze Date: Monday 18 Nov 91 12:44:38 PST Package name and version number: PV COMPARE version 1.03 Academic category: Package description: Photovoltaic system simulation and design software. Photovoltaics make electricity from sunlight. Other keywords: Solar Developer Name: April Lorenzen Affiliation: Published date: October 1991 Public domain? NO Copyrighted? YES Price: $5 for disk from author, if you use it registration is $25 Memory required: program is 150K, memory usage unknown Other hardware requirements: runs on any IBM PC, etc. Operating systems the software uses: DOS Other software required: none sher/Distributor: Name: April Lorenzen Address: POB 293 Jamestown, RI 02835 Phone: (401) 423-3939 or leave message in the CAD conference of The Depot BBS (717) 853-3599 Conditions of use: Shareware, must register if used for any purpose beyond a one time evaluation Site license policy: Contact author Support: Reasonable telephone support to registered users, or by BBS. I S A A C - Text of Selected Entry Page 1 of 3 --------------------------------------- Title: Re: PHOTOVOLTAIC system design / simulation software Forum: Engineering From: mlorenze Date: Saturday 11 Jan 92 16:01:02 PST The program simulates the interaction of PV modules, battery (or Maximum Power Point Tracker, with or w/o AC inverter), wire used to connect the above, and other resistance and/or diode voltage drops between the PV array and battery (or inverter). You describe the system ( number of modules in parallel/series, distance from array to battery, cost for one module, battery voltage (or MPPT efficiency %), etc. You choose a module type (such as ARCO M55). The program uses I-V curve data for that specific PV module to calculate how many useable watts would be produced, what the optimum wire gauge would be, what the voltage drops would be, cost per useable watt, total system cost, etc. This program uses a new concept for choosing optimum wire size and module type, as presented in a paper at the 22nd IEEE Photovoltaic Specialists Conference. Just send me some token amount of money to cover shipping and the cost of the disk, and I will send it to you. You need an IBM compatible, any will work. April Lorenzen, POB 293, Jamestown RI 02835 Phone: 401-423-3939 If you don't mind spending for long distance, you can download my program and leave messages on The Depot BBS (717) 853-3599. I do get my messages there about once a week. --- * Origin: EARTH*Net*Home:SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ECHO*919-9293346 (1:151/502) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 364 1-13-92 2:54pm Area: Home Power From: Lawrence London To: Don Kulha Re: Broken Echo!!!! Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > David James at the western star contacted George at > 13/13 through which we are now linked, solidly. My apologies Wonderful! I received your message today and others in HP by way of 13/13 (I assume) and my immediate uplinks. > just tried to do too much at once (changing the BBS around, > rerouting the echo,conducting my personal business, > researching a patent, taking classes, projects at the lab, > etc.) and fell a bit behind.....DCK Impressive! Best of luck with all of it. And thanks again for HOMEPOWR, a key participant in the emerging world of electronic access to information (and information alternative technology folks most want to see). --- * Origin: EARTH*Net*Home:SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ECHO*919-9293346 (1:151/502) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 365 1-10-92 10:20am Area: Home Power From: Bill Transue To: All Re: Home power control Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Somewhat off the trail of this conference topic, but I was wondering if anyone is using their computer for controlling their home environment? For example: Monitoring and adjusting temerature based on preset time and day requirements Turning lights on and off at specified times Monitoring activity I have a few old computers (including a PCjr!!) that I would love to put to work on a dedicated basis controlling key household functions. Anyone know of PC boards which can interface with this type of control environment? Thanks Bill --- * SLMR 2.0 * Your reality is dependent on your design --- QM v1.00 * Origin: The Beta BBS (617)244-7053 65:131/12 20:702/11 (1:101/346.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 366 1-12-92 07:33am Area: Home Power From: Mike May To: Scott Parks Re: HOMEPOWR Links Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ SP> Just got word from the LA area that HP may be distributed there SP> soon. Just that 512 limit I guess. I was under the understanding that the 512 limit was gone quite awhile ago. I thought I had read that the newer software they are running took care of it. --- Echodor 3.10a * Origin: Mike's Maze - Webster NY (716)872-0128 HST (1:260/202.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 367 1-12-92 07:39am Area: Home Power From: Mike May To: Don Kulha Re: Hello Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Well I just saw a message from you so I guess the link is finally fixed. I wonder if there are any other orphans out there yet? BTW I noticed that day you called my system that you tried to upload a file but apparently got bombed out with noise or something. What was it? If it was somthing real interesting I might just try callin you for it. I don't know the name of it though. --- Echodor 3.10a * Origin: Mike's Maze - Webster NY (716)872-0128 HST (1:260/202.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 368 1-12-92 9:43pm Area: Home Power From: Larry Fletcher To: Scott Parks Re: HOMEPOWR Links Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ *** Quoting Scott Parks to Mike May *** SP> Just got word from the LA area that HP may be distributed there SP> soon. Whoever told you that was right! After six months of occasional pleading we are finally receiving Homepowr. Now all we need is to find some knowledgeable people in the LA area to participate. Maybe Don could makeup a little flyer and send it to all of homepowr people in LA. I will definitely add Homepowr to the flyer I mail out and make a post about it on our SoCal echo. --- * Origin: Green Connection / 310-372-0987 / (1:102/129) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 370 1-13-92 06:54am Area: Home Power From: Jeff Woolf To: Bill Transue Re: Home power control Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > I was > wondering if anyone is using their computer for controlling > their home environment? As a matter of fact.... I use one of my pc's for just that. I've got the house set up with BSR (Plug 'n Power from RS) modules, including 30 light and wall outlets. Also, I have my Jacuzzi heater (110 volt) and pump (220 volt) on the BSR system as well. Also, the house temp is controlled via one of their thermostat units. All this is under the control of a pc, using Heathkit's (remember them?) BSR to serial converter, through a standard pc serial port. I wrote a custom program in C to control the whole mess. It uses a table (stored in memory at startup for speed) to decide what gets turned on when. The prior version of the program was written in compiled basic, and also included sunset on/off times (great for outside porch lights) and an interface to a touchtone decoder board I built a while back. The decoder was hooked to my household phone line, so to turn on a light or appliance all you have to do is press a few buttons. At the moment, I'm converting the rest of the system over to the C version. > Anyone know of PC boards which can interface with this type of > control environment? The big problem is one of feedback. In my current system, the computer commands a light to go on, but has no idea if the light has actually GONE on. A better system would allow for positive control of the system. You might check some of the instrimentation catalogs for more sophisticated stuff. Jeff --- * Origin: Woolf Software Technical BBS, West Hills, Ca 818-999-0925 (1:102/ 808) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 371 1-13-92 05:33am Area: Home Power From: Tomas Hood To: Lawrence London Re: Broken Echo!!!! Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ LL | > Somewhere along the line our echo is "busted"! I think LL | > that our backbone link at the western star isn't sending the LL | > echo to anywhere else. LL | I got 52 messages in HOMEPOWR today, the above from you included; 52!??? I haven't seen more than 1 to 5 a week.... hmmmm. --- GEcho/beta # SLMR 2.1 # from the Garden of Brother Hood's Monastery, Olympia, WA * Origin: Let's hook 'er up! <> Oh NO! (1:352/777) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 372 1-13-92 8:02pm Area: Home Power From: Jim Dunmyer To: Bill Transue Re: Home power control Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Somewhat off the trail of this conference topic, but I > was wondering if anyone is using their computer for > controlling their home environment? > Yeah, I control the draft on my woodstove with a Radio Shack Color Computer (COCO) and a home-made interface box. > > I have a few old computers (including a PCjr!!) that I > would love to put to work on a dedicated basis > controlling key household functions. > > Anyone know of PC boards which can interface with this > type of control environment? > Alpha Products makes all sorts of neat interface stuff that you could use to control most anything. Also, there are units out there that connect to an RS-232 port on a computer and in turn control those BSR modules that Radio Shack, among others, sells. --- OPMED 3.00 * Origin: EchoMaster (1:234/100) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 373 1-14-92 08:50am Area: Home Power From: Michael Favor To: Don Kulha Re: Turbines Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ thanks for the answer about bladeless turbine design, and why glass and aluminum wont work too well. i'm afraid i dont have any engineer friends who can tell me how many rpm's it takes to spin a disk to pieces. ;) > misplaced before it was opened. I'll be sending you copies > of some of the info I have which you'll find encouraging. > At this point in time due to the crush of work decending > on me I'm not commiting to a time frame for sending it that sounds great. i will gladly accept any useful info, and even wait patiently for it without complaining. i have the book "boundary layer breakthrough" on order from Lindsay's, so that should answer a lot of my simpler questions. thanks again for that reference. > and I don't want to be spending anyone elses > money either. It would be discouraging to fire it up for > the first time, over rev it and destroy the disks ya know? oh, well, those things happen when you are on the breaking edge of technology. i would much rather build the thing with someone's help and have a 60% chance of blowing it up on the first try, as opposed to trying to build it in my lonesome ignorance, and have a 90% chance of blowing it up on the first try, but i will do it either way, so dont think of it as spending someone else's money. the money will be spent anyway, its just a question of how much chance for success there will be. would it be much cheaper to try to build a smaller turbine as a model first? perhaps around 500-1000 watts? or would the trouble and materials be only marginally more expensive to build a 10-15 kw prototype? one last thing (for today ;)). could you please post the name/address of the supplier in LA who sells the flat 303 stainless steel plates? thanks again. regards, michael. --- Opus-CBCS 1.73a * Origin: Humanity Net BBS, Chico CA, 916-891-1920 (1:119/4.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 375 1-14-92 6:58pm Area: Home Power From: Harvey Hazelett To: Don Kulha Re: Tesla's Contributions Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Don, thanks for the update. I know Tesla claimed something like 76% or around there, but he did seem to exaterate a little at times. Anyway, Tesla was hindered financially, and also the materials and tools just weren't there for him. Just wonder what modern Tesla enthusist have done with his ideas. Last time I was on this echo, saw that you are having some finacial difficulties, don't dispair, thinks just could get much worse, and we are all feeling the crunch. Atleast its an election year, and a time for quick fixes, and serious changes, a little action... Anyway, I know that Tesla was quite clear about high quality stainless for the disks, was wondering if anybody has thought to try some composite materials (plastic/carbon/graphite...). I remember reading a few things a while back, and realize that there are many limitations with using these materials, but they are very strong, heat and corrosion resistant... --- T.A.G. 2.6 Standard * Origin: The Program Exchange (1:3633/133@FIDONET.ORG) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 376 1-14-92 7:10pm Area: Home Power From: Harvey Hazelett To: Don Kulha Re: Energy? Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Don, sort of an old message... but what you have said has turned out to be so true. Really enjoying this echo, it just got off to a slow start, sounded like there was a network problem, but its looking great. Many of Tesla's inventions and ideas were created with efficiency and economy in mind. That philosophy is very intigral to what America needs right about now. We waste and polute to damn much these days. Tesla did have some far out ideas, and probly had the title of 'whacko' from his youngest days, but isn't truely amazing the number of his invention that really had a major impact on our lives, and how many are still in use during present times, with little change in design? Perhaps some of those strange ideas just haven't found there place just yet, he was truely way beyond the technology of his day, and some just might still beyond our own... The one that caught my attention a few years ago, was someone proposed a free-energy idea, based on Tesla's wireless transmission of power experiments. The power he sent, was basically high frequency radio waves, of high potential. This was before there was radio, TV, cellular phones satalites and so forth. I don't know how many mega-watts the typical TV station puts out, but its got to be along the same order as Tesla's Colorado Springs experiments, or even Warden Cliff... Now, wouldn7t seem possible to collect a few kilowatts of this energy, and put it too use around the house, besides to listen to WDIZ in Orlando, or Married With Children. Don't see any effective means of storage or down-converting it to 110 VAC @ 60 cycles, but it could be put right to work heating/cooling the home, lighting, refrigeration. All the things that consume the greatest quantities of power anyway. Perhaps solor or wind power could make up the difference. The good point is that it wouldn7t depend on night or day, clouds or meteorological conditions. These broadcast signals are steady, and just disapate (why let it go to waste, costs money and resources to produce)... The Colorado Springs experiments had a lot to do with the transmitter and recieving coils tuned to the same frequency, so that sort of makes broadcast signals a bad thing (FM stand for frequency modulation, which means the information is coded into the carrier frequency), plus picking just one local station probly wouldn't provide enough power. Need to figure some way to use a broad ban of frequencies... --- T.A.G. 2.6 Standard * Origin: The Program Exchange (1:3633/133@FIDONET.ORG) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 378 1-16-92 5:30pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Michael Favor Re: Turbines Powerplants Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ MF> that sounds great. i will gladly accept any useful MF> info, and even wait patiently for it without MF> complaining. i have the book "boundary layer MF> breakthrough" on order from Lindsay's, so that should MF> answer a lot of my simpler questions. thanks again for You're welcome....Unearthed and browsed thru some of my research papers today, selecting out those that should be of greatest interest. Hope to get 'em copied in a few days and off your way. It was quite interesting to reread some of them; there were some things I missed before. MF> technology. i would much rather build the thing with MF> someone's help and have a 60% chance of blowing it up MF> on the first try, as opposed to trying to build it in MF> my lonesome ignorance, and have a 90% chance of blowing MF> it up on the first try, but i will do it either way, so MF> dont think of it as spending someone else's money. the MF> money will be spent anyway, its just a question of how MF> much chance for success there will be. We'll have to discuss some collaboration on the project. My interest in this is I think the same as yours, ie., hacking out a better way to tap power from the sun cleanly. Propriety, patents, etc. are not a real concern of mine though it might be neat to have an inside line on manufacturing a solar steam turbine generator. It's a technology that could be used a lot of places around this planet and could be totally locally manufactered in small shops. That ability makes up for a lot because the technology to make Photovoltaic cells is pretty pricey and access to the equipment to make 'em is pretty "exclusive". Folks in he hinderlands might be super happy with just 5% overall system efficency if the price were right and they could build it. It sure beats 15% efficient technology you can't afford. Sunlight is cheap and the collector is also relatively speaking; a 5% each sq. meter of collector gets you about 50 watts, at 20% about 200 watts figuring 1000w a sq./meter (summer/noon). It's worth pursueing. My guess is that a relatively low tech collector and turbogenerator would do fairly well powerwise: Available solar insolation: 1 meter, 1000 watts Losses: - 20% collection 800 watts - 20% plumbing heat loss 640 watts @ 33% turbine efficency 210 watts - 20% Generating losses 168 watts sq/mtr output We'll have to talk about this at some point when things calm down around here. DCK --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 384 1-14-92 6:58pm Area: Home Power From: Harvey Hazelett To: Don Kulha Re: Tesla's Contributions Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Don, thanks for the update. I know Tesla claimed something like 76% or around there, but he did seem to exaterate a little at times. Anyway, Tesla was hindered financially, and also the materials and tools just weren't there for him. Just wonder what modern Tesla enthusist have done with his ideas. Last time I was on this echo, saw that you are having some finacial difficulties, don't dispair, thinks just could get much worse, and we are all feeling the crunch. Atleast its an election year, and a time for quick fixes, and serious changes, a little action... Anyway, I know that Tesla was quite clear about high quality stainless for the disks, was wondering if anybody has thought to try some composite materials (plastic/carbon/graphite...). I remember reading a few things a while back, and realize that there are many limitations with using these materials, but they are very strong, heat and corrosion resistant... --- T.A.G. 2.6 Standard * Origin: The Program Exchange (1:3633/133@FIDONET.ORG) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 385 1-14-92 7:10pm Area: Home Power From: Harvey Hazelett To: Don Kulha Re: Energy? Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Don, sort of an old message... but what you have said has turned out to be so true. Really enjoying this echo, it just got off to a slow start, sounded like there was a network problem, but its looking great. Many of Tesla's inventions and ideas were created with efficiency and economy in mind. That philosophy is very intigral to what America needs right about now. We waste and polute to damn much these days. Tesla did have some far out ideas, and probly had the title of 'whacko' from his youngest days, but isn't truely amazing the number of his invention that really had a major impact on our lives, and how many are still in use during present times, with little change in design? Perhaps some of those strange ideas just haven't found there place just yet, he was truely way beyond the technology of his day, and some just might still beyond our own... The one that caught my attention a few years ago, was someone proposed a free-energy idea, based on Tesla's wireless transmission of power experiments. The power he sent, was basically high frequency radio waves, of high potential. This was before there was radio, TV, cellular phones satalites and so forth. I don't know how many mega-watts the typical TV station puts out, but its got to be along the same order as Tesla's Colorado Springs experiments, or even Warden Cliff... Now, wouldn7t seem possible to collect a few kilowatts of this energy, and put it too use around the house, besides to listen to WDIZ in Orlando, or Married With Children. Don't see any effective means of storage or down-converting it to 110 VAC @ 60 cycles, but it could be put right to work heating/cooling the home, lighting, refrigeration. All the things that consume the greatest quantities of power anyway. Perhaps solor or wind power could make up the difference. The good point is that it wouldn7t depend on night or day, clouds or meteorological conditions. These broadcast signals are steady, and just disapate (why let it go to waste, costs money and resources to produce)... The Colorado Springs experiments had a lot to do with the transmitter and recieving coils tuned to the same frequency, so that sort of makes broadcast signals a bad thing (FM stand for frequency modulation, which means the information is coded into the carrier frequency), plus picking just one local station probly wouldn't provide enough power. Need to figure some way to use a broad ban of frequencies... --- T.A.G. 2.6 Standard * Origin: The Program Exchange (1:3633/133@FIDONET.ORG) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 386 1-15-92 06:55am Area: Home Power From: David Rule To: Bill Transue Re: Home power control Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ BT> Somewhat off the trail of this conference topic, but I BT> was wondering if anyone is using their computer for BT> controlling their home environment? I use a BSR X-10 system to allow my computer to turn on/off/dim lights, the house alarm, some appliances, etc., where appropiate. Perhaps you might want to check the home automation echo, tag HOMEAUT, available from California, USA. See also Circia's Circuit Cellar Magazine. Lot's of this stuff. --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: PC Club of South Jersey ( NJ, USA ) Dual Standard (1:266/16) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 387 1-15-92 4:41pm Area: Home Power From: Mike May To: Don Kulha Re: HOMEPOWR Links Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ DK> MM> Now if we can really get Don, linked all the way DK> MM> through to the east coast without calling my BBS in DK> MM> Western NY then we will be all set. DK> DK> It's a done deal thanks to your help, George Peace at 13/13 and DK> David James at the western star. The Fun resumes! DK> DCK No problem Don. If I can help with anything else like that just let me know. =M=M= --- Echodor 3.10a * Origin: Mike's Maze - Webster NY (716)872-0128 HST (1:260/202.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 388 1-15-92 9:44pm Area: Home Power From: Larry Fletcher To: Don Kulha Re: Boat 1 of 4 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Hi Dick, I really enjoyed the sailboat article. From 1980-83 I lived on a moored sailboat with the only power coming from a 90amp 12volt battery. I was able to run lights and a television for over three weeks on one charge. I wanted to get a solar panel or wind charger, but it was just to easy to take the battery ashore once a month for a 24hr charge. Later on a friend got a small panel and has not had to take his battery ashore since. Around 1980 I remember seeing a picture of a 45-50ft trimaran covered with solar cells that powered everything including an inboard electric motor used for propulsion. By the way, could you place the name of the file at the beginning of the articles you post? This would make it easier for some of us that are saving your posts and already have a few of the files. It could also help users that might be downloading homepowr files from more than one BBS. Larry --- * Origin: Green Connection / 310-372-0987 / (1:102/129) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 389 1-15-92 09:10am Area: Home Power From: Scott Parks To: Larry Fletcher Re: HOMEPOWR Links Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In a msg to Scott Parks <12 Jan 1992 21:43>, Larry Fletcher wrote: LF> Whoever told you that was right! After six months of occasional LF> pleading we are finally receiving Homepowr. Now all we need is LF> to find some knowledgeable people in the LA area to participate. You did .... I think. Hi Larry and welcome. I have been busy on the following .... we found the problem up here and have been trying to get RA_Support to move on this! I hope no one will complain about this as off topic but I've been at this for the last 5 days. Thanks ================================================================ Attention Remote Access Sysops ================================================================ RA1.10 has a huge hole in it .... this bug was discovered in the Seattle area so hackers that want to mess with your BBS will get the word out around this area. Also a local "un-registered" Sysop blurted this out on an International RA echo. To protect your system ..... please insert a new line at the top of each menu (at least the sensitive ones(DOS drops, etc)). The new line should have a semicolon in the user-display line and this menu line should have a security level above anyone on your system. Netmail has been sent to the proper folks and some other means to emphasize the seriousness of the problem have taken place. If I know you and you need further info .... you may Netmail. If not .... just fix your menus or remove the options that may compromise your system and wait to hear about it in the Support echos. Scott Parks --- GEcho/beta * Origin: The Helix - NW Environment - HST*DS - (206)782-3365 (1:343/74) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 448 1-18-92 07:58am Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Harvey Hazelett Re: Turbine Parts Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ HH> Anyway, I know that Tesla was quite clear about high HH> quality stainless for the disks, was wondering if HH> anybody has thought to try some composite materials HH> (plastic/carbon/graphite...). I remember reading a few HH> things a while back, and realize that there are many HH> limitations with using these materials, but they are HH> very strong, heat and corrosion resistant... I'm unclear on exactly what the "german silver" was that Tesla used in most of his turbines was but I believe it's about equivalent as you said to modern stainless steel. Most of the composites or plastics lack the ultimate stregnth for this application plus have coefficients of expansion that make them unsuitable. The material I know of that comes closest is probably Vespel but the last time I bought a sheet of it (5"X5"X1/4") it cost me $800. A little pricey. 303 grade stainless is the best cost/performance choice as far as I can see at this point. I think we're going to try using .022 (22 thousandths thick) rotor disks for a first cut at this. Might be able to cut the rotor tip frictional losses by profiling the disk edges some. Now, if one were using this turbine in a hydro electric configuration I think the thicker disks would be okay. DCK --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 449 1-18-92 08:47am Area: Home Power From: Theresa Diaz Kulha To: Don Kulha Re: Turbine Parts Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ DK> I'm unclear on exactly what the "german silver" was that Tesla DK> used in most of his turbines was but I believe it's DK> about equivalent as you said to modern stainless steel. DK> Most of the composites or plastics lack the ultimate German Silver is nickle...it's still sold that way in the jewelry trade. It looks like sterling but is much cheaper, alot of horse silver is really german silver on the really inexpensive bridles and halters. It is a misleading phrase from before "truth in advertising"...amazing what your spouse knows, isn't it? Theresa --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 450 1-18-92 01:18am Area: Home Power From: Jim Bianchi To: Harvey Hazelett Re: Tesla's Contributions Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Don -- this thing with the Tesla bladeless turbine discs requiring stainless for construction mat'l is interesting. I've only vaguely been following this particular topic, so, could you or someone else please answer some questions? 1). What rotational speeds are being spoken of? (15,000rpm? 50,000rpm?) 2). What is seen as the optimum medium for propulsion? (Air? Steam? Water? Another fluid?) 3). What will be the temperature of this medium? (Hot? Cold? Neutral?) 4). Will this medium be corrosive in any way? * JABBER v1.1B7 #b003 * "Build a watch in 179 easy steps" by C. Forsberg --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 451 1-18-92 09:30am Area: Home Power From: Harvey Hazelett To: Don Kulha Re: Tesla Turbine? Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Sorry Don, I'm a little fanatical about Tesla Technology, and not too many sources of modern examinations of his works. I guess I confuse the goal of this echo some. It seems that its more directed toward freeing us from the public power grids (monopolies), rather than economy or enviromental issues, but still it would be in everyones best interest to find and use the most efficient, cost effective, and enviromentally clean methods. An efficient method, would also tend to be a clean one as well. Anyway, thanks for indulging me. Perhaps some day, when I make the big move toward upgrading to an IBM based BBS, I'll look into starting a Tesla Echo... --- T.A.G. 2.6 Standard * Origin: The Program Exchange (1:3633/133@FIDONET.ORG) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 455 1-18-92 01:54am Area: Home Power From: Gustavo Arizmendi To: All Re: Grettings Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ It has been a long time since I ahve used a modem to comunicate to other computers. Just want to say hi, and also congratulate you for having such afine board theat offers a o lot ofpositive information. I have experience many things today but noting can be compared with the recommendations of trying this board. I am glad that there are peolple concerned out there antd are voiceng their ideas via telecomunications. Im sorry for my misspellings Iam exprienceng problems with this terminal program. Thank you for allowing me to express myself sincerely Gus Arizmendi --- * Origin: Babble Underground (707) 575-0636 (1:125/180) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 456 1-18-92 10:59am Area: Home Power From: Tom Rieger To: Don Kulha Re: Echo twist Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Don, Don't know if you received my netmail on the subject but... 327/999 hasn't been able to connect with your system for quite a while. I'm feeding him this echo from here (260/242). I feed him the POWER echo already so it's no big deal. Please cut your feed for this echo to 327/999 to avoid nasty dupe-loops. Thanks, TR --- InterPCB 1.31 * Origin: Latent Heat - Rochester, NY - (1:260/242@fidonet.org) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 457 1-19-92 09:23am Area: Home Power From: Bob Campbell To: Don Kulha Re: Tesla Turbine? Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > I am getting a bit off topic here so I'll have to > slap my hand (being the moderator and all). It's appro > to discuss tesla's turbine in the context of power > production but the other stuff (pumping applications) is > a bit off. The moderator must really be strict! Seems to me that the discussion of energy efficient equipment would be a natural benefit to this echo. What's the sence in producing alternative enery if we waste it? --- OPMED 3.00 * Origin: Flashpoint, Keep your chimney clean . (1:119/911.1) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 460 1-19-92 7:47pm Area: Home Power From: Thomas Vervaeke To: Jeff Woolf Re: Home power controle Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Where does one get these BSR units? I don't think we have Heathkit stores here in Colorado Springs, CO. I've heard of them but have never tried one. I'd like to do so now. How much do the individual components cost? Would you be willing to share your C program? I tend to hack in Pascal and C also. Thanks. Tom --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Socialism OnLine! * +1(719)392-7781 * Venceremos! * (1:128/105) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 461 1-20-92 7:44pm Area: Home Power From: Sean McCullough To: Harvey Hazelett Re: Energy? Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Harvey-- HH> transmission of power experiments. The power he sent, HH> was basically high frequency radio waves, of high potential. This was HH> before there was radio, TV, cellular phones satalites HH> and so forth. I don't know how many mega-watts the HH> typical TV station puts out, but its got to be along HH> the same order as Tesla's Colorado Springs experiments, or even Warden HH> Cliff... Hate to burst your bubble here, but the typical broadcast station sends only about 1/1000th the power of the LOW-energy Tesla experiments. A typical Tesla experimentation with, say, artificial lightning, would have in excess of 100 GWh (that's 100 BILLION Watt-hours!) stored in the coils and condensers at the time of the arranged discharge. By comparison, the ENTIRE broadcast load of ALL the broadcast stations in the Colorado Springs, CO area in 1992 is somewhere around 1/1000 of that. Moreover, there was something that still obtains, no matter what, and that's the inverse square law. Not to mention the Laws of Thermodynamics, which are absolute, some of Tesla's more excentric boosters notwithstanding. Now, there ARE uses for Tesla's inventions in the modern world. The very EXISTENCE of radio, satellite communications, cellular phones, etc. are indebted to Tesla's work. But Tesla's inventions don't create energies that aren't there to start out with -- the opinion all too often held by alternative thinkers in some corners. peace -- Sean --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Socialism OnLine! * +1(719)392-7781 * Venceremos! * (1:128/105) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 467 1-22-92 2:48pm Area: Home Power From: John Keith To: All Re: Tomcat and readers for. Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I would appreciate some help on using the readers for Tomcat, My computer is a Mac si, and I am able to download the packet, but when I try to read it I am unable to. I have QReader,stuffit,Dart,compact pro,LHars 0.41,Unzip and zippop. Only the Unzip "seems to work" but opens the packet into many documents that till cannot be read. I would appreciate any help in knowing what programs are needed,as well as the settings (if any) and what I should ecpect. The documentation that I have for these programs are of little use. I would much rather read these files off line. Thank you. --- WM v2.00/91-0168 * Origin: The Pro. Photgraphers BBS-Minneapolis- 9600 V.32 (1:282/95) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 472 1-18-92 01:18am Area: Home Power From: Jim Love To: All Re: Computers & Mirrors Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Howdy Homepower-ers. Am I glad this was added to the BBS. I've got a lot of home power questions even though I'm in a city and renting in a four-plex. But one day I'd like to have my own place. 1. Is anyone using a home computer to have mirrors deflect sun indoors? I'm glad some people gave that info on where to get the inter-faces between the computer and the external device. That was something I was wondering about. a) What are some things that can be used to keep the correct mirror angles. I've thought of a satelite dish mechanism but I think that would be expensive. b) Does shareware exist that calculates (Given your longetude, latitude and time of year) the path of the sun in the sky. 2. Would directing the sun with a mirror onto a PV increase its power. This may be a dumb question, but hey I don't know. If so what is the limit. 3. I've heard that new cars in the future will have a single light engine that will distribute the light using fiber optics to the headlights, dash, interior light etc. From this concept I thought: Would it be possible to reflect light onto a specific point using mirrors. Focus this light onto some kind of fiber optics receptor then wire the fiber optic cables to various parts of the house. Do you think you could get enough light this way to create an indoor solar cooker or heat your water storage in the basement thereby eliminating the transfer of heat storage water to the outside? 4. If you hooked up a bicycle wheel windmill to an old appliance motor, it would produce AC right? After converting it to DC, would you get a lot of power? Would it be worth doing? There always seems to be a lot of old motors kicking around at garage sales. 5. Did anyone read that Popular Mechanics (I think) article on the replacement of water for a high tempature salt in a California Solar power plant? Do some people use liquids other than water for heat storage in their solar heaters? 6. When I was in Naramata BC (On Lake Okanagan) I saw an old pier that was used for boats picking up fruit. There were huge pieces of concrete that were used for counter wieghts inorder for the pier to be raised and lowered. I wondered: If someone build a similar weight, could you use wind power and basic gearing to raise the weight to the top of a tower, thereby storing kinetic energy to be released (Using gears) at a later time. The energy would be used to run a electric generator. For example, a 1000 Kg piece of concrete raised to a distance of 10 meters? How long could you run a 12 inch black and white TV. ___ * SLMR 2.0 * Bring me a shrrubbberrrrriiiiiieeeee ! ! ! --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Connections BBS - Calgary, Alta. Canada - (403)246-2183 (1:134/32) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 473 1-20-92 08:37am Area: Home Power From: Jim Dunmyer To: Harvey Hazelett Re: Energy? Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > our own... The one that caught my attention a few > years ago, was someone proposed a free-energy idea, > based on Tesla's wireless transmission of power > experiments. The power he sent, was basically high > collect a few kilowatts of this energy, and put it too > use around the house, besides to listen to WDIZ in > VAC @ 60 cycles, but it could be put right to work > heating/cooling the home, lighting, refrigeration. All > the things that consume the greatest quantities of power > anyway. Perhaps solor or wind power could make up the Harvey, You'd better do a bit of research before getting too carried away. The RF (radio frequency) energy falling on your house is on the order of MicroWatts per Square Meter. Micro=Millionths If you could collect all the RF energy falling on your roof, you just might be able to light a small flashlight bulb. That's assuming you could collect the RF from *all* the radio, TV, and other sources. You have to keep laws of physics in mind. Yes, the transmitter is 10's of thousands of watts, but you're not right next to the antenna. By the same token, the Sun is many millions of watts, so it should be *easy* to collect and use, right? You should get the idea by now.... --- OPMED 3.00 * Origin: EchoMaster (1:234/100) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 474 1-20-92 08:47am Area: Home Power From: Jeff Woolf To: Thomas Vervaeke Re: Home power controle Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Where does one get these BSR units? The 'receiver' units are sold widely by Radio Shack, DAK, and others. I beleive that Heath still sells some sort of bsr controller, but I don't know if the one I bought is still available. I show them reachable at (616) 982-3411 for orders, (616)982-3309 for tech support. The box I bought is model GD-1530. I think the BSR-to rs232 box was about 60-70 bucks, and the receiver modules (one per controlled device) are about 12-15 dollars each. > Would you be willing to share your C > program? Happy to. Let me know when you have the hardware together, and I'll make the software available on my board. Also, feel free to call me at (818) 717-1546 days. Jeff --- * Origin: Woolf Software Technical BBS, West Hills, Ca 818-999-0925 (1:102/808) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 475 1-21-92 11:27am Area: Home Power From: Ken Finney To: All Re: Stirling engines Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Any experience out there with Stirling cycle engines, particularily building the one from the plans offered by Lindsay Publications? I am planning on buying the plans, but would like feedback from someone first. --- GEcho/beta * Origin: The HELIX | NW Environment | HST*DS | (206)782-3365 (1:343/74) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 483 1-21-92 01:21am Area: Home Power From: Grant Neufeld To: All Re: Senegal: Solar Energy Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ This message was from JOE DELASSUS to ALL, originally in conference Anews and was forwarded to you by GRANT NEUFELD. ------------------------- Via The N.Y. Transfer News Service 718-448-2358, 718-448-2683 an inter press service feature by aly coulibaly dakar, jan 4 (ips) -- after numerous experiments with solar energy in rural senegal, the technology now represents a trump card of development because of its large-scale use in this west african nation. according to the government, family solar energy panels respond remarkably to economic and social exigencies. in 1987 the german and senegalese governments began a joint project to supply electricity to 500 villages out of the country's 13,000 villages. the project is expected to be completed by the year 2005. the project aims to contribute to rural electrification through the installation of solar energy panels during 1987-1991. a solar energy plant was built at diaoule in 1989, a village of 15,000 people, 240 kms east of this senegalese capital. benno schmidt kuntzel, head of the german-senegal project, says the diaoule solar energy plant was built with an initial investment of 5.6 million dollars. the plant has 560 solar panels each generating 36.4 watts of energy for a total power of 21.5 kilowatts. this capacity far exceeds diaoule's energy requirements. the village, which comprises 27 hamlets built close to one another, has only 224 subscribers. "with an average of 10 amperes, a black and white tv set, an iron or a radio can function for 20 hours," says joseph sene, president of the regional association of young farmers of fatick, the region which includes diaoule. amadou sakho, a peasant farmer and member of the young farmers association, says to achieve these results, the subscriber must buy solar panels which cost between 5,000 and 6,600 dollars. the average income of a rural family is between 200 and 300 dollars, which is well below the cost of buying a solar energy plant delivered on a down payment of 500 dollars. to overcome the reticence noted at the beginning of the project among rural families due to the relatively high cost of family solar panels, the directors of the german-senegal project have recommended the panels be delivered on credit for several years. the project itself would meet the cost of installation. according to the experts, solar electrification has resulted in a large reduction in the consumption of oil in six of the families at diaoule, while the average consumption of oil by the other families has declined from 2.7 to one litre a month. studies by the joint german-senegal project indicate that the cost of energy has fallen by seven percent for farming families, and for others by about the same proportion. "we are aware of the advantages of solar energy in all domains, but we would like a reduction on the payment which has to be made on delivery and installation of the solar panels," says amadou sankare, a farmer in his forties. "we should also like to see an extension in the terms of payment." despite these difficulties, the use of solar energy and the research in progress on this technology give reason for hope. the project provides for the installation of six pumping stations to fulfill a more extensive programme of pumps for eastern senegal, as well as the installation of some 500 family solar energy panels. (end/ips/ep/ac/apc) ___ Qtach2 v1.07 U4 # Origin: OneNet_St_Louis_MO_(314)776-0061 (1:100/355) ___ X SLMR 2.1 X A fork is a cold shiny tool to pierce, tear and ingest --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Connections BBS - Calgary, Alta. Canada - (403)246-2183 (1:134/32) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 484 1-19-92 5:14pm Area: Home Power From: David Knapp To: All Re: Electric/Alternative Powered Cars Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ The following IS NOT a commercial for any product, but after reading this book, I had a new outlook on how I commute to work. I recently sent this out on to the echo, but now that the communication lines have been repaired I'll send it for all to see. B O O K R E V I E W WHY WAIT FOR DETROIT?, Drive The Car of The Future Today! ISBN 1-879857-91-X, $13.95 ppd. US funds., 6' X 9", 210 pages, 100 b&w photos, edited by S. McCrea. Published by the South Florida Electric Auto Association. Everything You Need To Know About The Car Of The Future! Read this book to find out: - Why you might own an EV (Electric Vehicle) someday - soon! - How you can protect the environment by asking the U.S. Congress to pass the Lead Battery Recycling Incentives Act and the Electric Vehicle Development Act. - Who sells electric vehicles. - How to care for an electric vehicle (EV). - Where you can find the nearest EV organization. - Who in your area is an EV pioneer. - The questions to ask when buying an EV. - Six different ways to obtain an EV. - The Pros and cons of converting a gasoline-powered car to electric. Profits from the sale of this book are benefiting EV research. 1/3 of the first and second printings are being donated to schools and libraries! I found this book full of information and was unable to put it down. After reading this book, you will wonder why your second car is not an electric car. If you are an EV skeptic, I caution you not to read this book ... for you are an endangered species! This book will put the myths's of EV impracticalities to rest forever! I had a little trouble finding this book. The local Illinois book stores weren't able to get a hold of it. When I finally found a source, the people were very friendly and helpful. I highly recommend reading this book from my own reading experience. To order WHY WAIT FOR DETROIT?, send $13.95 ppd to: Denver Electric Vehicle Council, Inc. 2940 13th Street Boulder, CO 80304 I received my book in about 14 days (after paying with a personal check) and have hardly put it down since! via "eXpress Response" The Universal OffLine Reader Editor v4.52 * * * Become GRID free and get your Electricity from the SUN! * * * --- RA 1.10+ via MkXRS 1.03 * Origin: The Silver Dragon Inn * (815) 633-6455 (1:2210/633) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 485 1-22-92 11:31pm Area: Home Power From: Murray Nash To: Michael Favor Re: The Toy BBS Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Just an update on The Toy, (thanks for listing it,) we operate at 1200 baud, have 6 subs and use the hermes BBS system. Thanks again, Murray. --- Opus-CBCS 1.73a * Origin: Humanity Net BBS, Chico CA, 916-891-1920 (1:119/4.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 489 1-23-92 01:23am Area: Home Power From: Jim Bianchi To: Jim Love Re: Computers & Mirrors Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ JL > Howdy Homepower-ers. > I've got a lot of home power questions even though I'm in a city and > renting in a four-plex. Hey, how else can you find out? I can't answer all of your questions and what I CAN respond with may be incorrect, but.. > 3. I've heard that new cars in the future will have a single light > engine that will distribute the light using fiber optics to the > headlights, dash, interior light etc. Seems that some models of high-end GM cars already use this method (in a limited fashion). What they do is to "tap off" via fibre-optics the light given off by the headlights to drive li'l rearward facing top-of-fender in- dicators. The drill is that the driver can determine at a glance if any of the headlights are malfunctioning. The "light engine" would have to be REALLY powerful and REALLY rel- iable -- two things that don't necessarily go together when designing new lighting systems. > From this concept I thought: > Would it be possible to reflect light onto a specific point using > mirrors. Focus this light onto some kind of fiber optics receptor then > wire the fiber optic cables to various parts of the house. Sure. But you'd run up against problems related to the quality of the fire-optic mat'l allowing sufficient quantity (intensity) to pass in order to do much in the way of useful work. > 4. If you hooked up a bicycle wheel windmill to an old appliance motor > it would produce AC right? Again, sure. Only AC motors are optimized for DRIVING (as opposed to BEING DRIVEN or GENERATING). The fact that any electric motor is basically a generator running in reverse is interesting, but not of any practical relevance, I'm afraid. > After converting it to DC, would you get a lot of power? Nope. > Would it be worth doing? There always seems to be a lot of old motors > kicking around at garage sales. Not as long as reasonably priced alternatives are avail. Skip the garage sales and scrounge the auto junkyards for a heavy-duty automobile GENERATOR (not alternator), rebuild it thouroughly, use the best bearings you can afford and hook that up to a bicycle wheel windmill. STILL won't do much I'm afraid, as output in these is related to rpm, but it's a better answer. > 6. When I was in Naramata BC (On Lake Okanagan) I saw an old pier that > was used for boats picking up fruit. There were huge pieces of concre > that were used for counter wieghts inorder for the pier to be raised a > lowered. > > I wondered: > If someone build a similar weight, could you use wind power and basic > gearing to raise the weight to the top of a tower, thereby storing > kinetic energy to be released (Using gears) at a later time. The energ > would be used to run a electric generator. For example, a > 1000 Kg piece of concrete raised to a distance of 10 meters? How long > could you run a 12 inch black and white TV. This, while it will work, isn't practical because the energy required to raise the weight to a height in the first place will always exceed or at best (100% efficiency) exactly equal the amount of kinetic energy stored in the device. This has been the basic stumbling block of fusion powerplants: the amount of energy required to initiate the reaction is greater than the amount of energy produced. (The "trigger" for a fusion reaction is a fission bomb optimised for the purpose.) * JABBER v1.1B9 #b003 * The perversity of the universe tends toward a maximum. --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 490 1-24-92 8:19pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Ken Finney Re: Stirling engines Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ KF> Any experience out there with Stirling cycle engines, particularily KF> building the one from the plans offered by Lindsay Publications? KF> I am planning on buying the plans, but would like feedback from KF> someone first. I don't think you can expect to get too much power from them but it could be a worthy experiment especially if you use sunlight as a heat source to drive it. They frankly are not all that efficient from what I've read but if the heat source is clean and free what the heck. Live steam magazine has had a few write ups on sterlings and one of their plan books contains plans to buld a small one. One of the more intriguing uses I saw for these were as a fan. Apparently they used to have table fans powered by small sterlings powered by a small oil burning wick. We'll be interested to find out your experience with this project....DCK --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 491 1-24-92 8:27pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Jim Love Re: Smoke & Mirrors Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ JL> a) What are some things that can be used to keep the correct mirror JL> angles. I've thought of a satelite dish mechanism but I think JL> that would be expensive. There are ready made sun trackers available made for optimizing the output of photovoltaic cells (most quote arount a 20% improvement in output). Some uses gasses (Zomeworks) and others (noteably Wattsun) use CdSe photocells and servo motors to aim the collector array. I believe they range in price from $350-$700. JL> 2. Would directing the sun with a mirror onto a PV increase its power. JL> This may be a dumb question, but hey I don't know. If so what is the JL> limit. They limit is when you burn down the cell or seriously shorten their life. Some commerical contentrating collectors are available and are a bit cheaper than equivalent normal array. However longevity may be a problem. JL> 3. I've heard that new cars in the future will have a single light JL> engine that will distribute the light using fiber optics to the JL> headlights, dash, interior light etc. Not very likely for many reasons the least of which is that it's sure nice to have one headlight still working if one fails JL> Would it be possible to reflect light onto a specific point using JL> mirrors. Focus this light onto some kind of fiber optics receptor then JL> wire the fiber optic cables to various parts of the house. Fiber would be a poor candidate for this and the cost would be incredible. I have seen concentrated light focused, turned and respread by optical elements and used for lighting. I think this was in the now defuct Solar Age magazine and that it was used in a University (Minnesota?) to light an earth sheltered building. The most elegant, lasting and reliable alternative energy systems are always the simplest. Keep that in mind. It would be far simpler to place a collector outside (something passive) than to muck with fiber (pricey stuff and hard to work with properly). I like fiber and use it to link my CAD workstation to a server...can't imagine using it in my home though (unless it's hooked to some high speed modem or such). JL> 5. Did anyone read that Popular Mechanics (I think) article on the JL> replacement of water for a high tempature salt in a California Solar JL> power plant? Do some people use liquids other than water for heat JL> storage in their solar heaters? Phase change materials, salts in particular have been used for heat storage as are oils. LUZ uses oil, heated by parabolic reflectors to create steam to drive turbines and make electricity. Heat exchangers route the 700+ degree oil (Therminol) into the boiler to vaporize the water. I personally feel we need to be very considerate of the possible enviornmental effects of our systems. If you don't have oils or hazardous chemicals in it you can't very well spill them accidently. I'll trade off someefficency to keep a whole system benign. I'm not entirely sure about this but I believe one of the advantages to using the phase change materials is the storage density (space per btu stored) as opposed to efficency. Water stored in a trombe wall would do as well while taking up more space, but the consequences of it's use or accidental spillage are easier on the earth. DCK --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 492 1-24-92 9:09pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Bob Campbell Re: Tesla Turbine? Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ BC> The moderator must really be strict! BC> Seems to me that the discussion of energy efficient BC> equipment would be a natural benefit to this echo. BC> What's the sence in producing alternative enery if we waste it? Good point. In the case of the Tesla turbine it actually suffers in comparison with some more normal pumps in terms of efficency as regards moving water. It's advantage is that it can handle slurrys or corrosive mixtures better and in the case of very hot water is not as prone to cavitation. There are some real advantages to them for fire service pumps, moving fluids containing grits but not necessarily having to do with saving energy. Now for making energy it may be a different matter...one I intend to explore. As for how much of this is appro here it's a grey area. Being the moderator I kinda try to keep things centered. I like the diversity here and don't want to unduly restrict the discussion but need to balance this with the desire not to waste the dollars of the 40 or so system operators who pay to move the echo around the country. I guess we're doing better than many echos in that regard.....DCK --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 493 1-24-92 9:27pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Jim Bianchi Re: Tesla's Contributions Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ JB> Don -- this thing with the Tesla bladeless turbine discs requiring JB> stainless for construction mat'l is interesting. I've only vaguely been JB> following this particular topic, so, could you or someone else please JB> answer some questions? Sure, though you should note that I'm far from an expert. You don't necessarily need to use Stainless but it seems close to optimal. JB> 1). What rotational speeds are being spoken of? JB> (15,000rpm? 50,000rpm?) Somewhere between 10,000 to 30,000 rpm. I've heard of them producing reasonable efficency at 5-6,000 but optimally it should be higher (the centrifugal force working on the motive fluid forces it to taker a longer path at higher speeds hence more opportunity for the boundary layer disk/fluid friction to transfer power. JB> 2). What is seen as the optimum medium for propulsion? (Air? Steam? JB> Water? Another fluid?) I don't know if any are optimum though steam was Tesla's favorite. In part this is due to the turbine's alledged (methinks real) ability to recover the latent heat in steam (the energy needed to drive the phase change from water to steam).. It really helps to think about this turbine as being heat powered and figure out where the energy goes. JB> 3). What will be the temperature of this medium? JB> (Hot? Cold? Neutral?) Any. Having heat involved in the process has advantages but it could be cold in the context of hydro turines and still makes impressive power (conjecture on my part based on research using it for pumping water and liquid oxygen) JB> 4). Will this medium be corrosive in any way? Well, most are. Water and air are corrosive. The materials used in construction would determine the devices longevity. The design I'm working on uses Aluminum for housing and manifolding with 303 stainless shaft, disks and spacers. The aluminum is in there mainly for ease of machining, cost and wieght but may need anodizing....DCK --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 494 1-24-92 9:46pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Harvey Hazelett Re: Broadcast Energy Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I will admitt to being a bit lerry of the idea of broadcasting energy. I'm not so sure that it would be very healthy. Robert Hienlein (sp) touched on the subject in his book Waldo and Magic Inc. The book takes a very silly (?) turn or two but has some interesting points on broadcast energy. I have a perhaps unreasonable fear of being microwaved without my permission. I think that if it is possible to broadcast useable amounts of power it would be at low efficency. Given the contravery surrounding high tension power lines now I don't think I'm ready to support this idea. I could be very wrong too, happens. DCK --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 495 1-24-92 9:55pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Grant Neufeld Re: Senegal: Solar Energy Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Many thanks for your post. It was fascinating and heartening. For those of us in the more affluent contries solar power is most often used by those far from power lines, wishing an energy independant lifestyle or just not wanting to support a local utility using a polluting form of power. In the lesser developed countries it becomes very practical. Great example. Please post any other goodies if they come your way. DCK --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 496 1-24-92 9:59pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: David Knapp Re: Electric/Alternative Powered Cars Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Thanks for the info Dave. I've seen the book and it looked quite good. We may get more discussion soon on the subject of electric vehicles since the folks at the Northbay chapter of the CA state electric vehicle society tried to reach me today and wanted more info on what we are doing and how to participate.....Lets hope! DCK --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 499 1-24-92 05:02am Area: Home Power From: Harvey Hazelett To: Sean Mccullough Re: Energy? Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I didn't mean to imply that Tesla created power out of nothing... I have a 250,000V Tesla coil, which produces an 6-8" arc (depends on a number of factors, but the biggy is the humity in Florida). Anyway, I can get a fluorescent tube to glow from about 4 ft, just holding it in my hand. I just proposed that radio and TV broadcasts are putting out considerably more, constantly. If we could collect and some how store this energy (capacitor), we should be able to get usuable power out of the deal. Our radio and TV antennas pick up just milliwatts (probly less, never really got into radio). If we get a poor TV picture, we buy a bigger antenna, and recieve more of the signal. Just seemed to me that there is a lot of potential being broadcast about, but the recievers only use a minute quantity of all thats there. It wouldn't be 'creating' energy, just harnessing a man-made source, which Tesla didn't have availiable to him at the time, as he invented it... Just took a few years to really take off on a commercial scale. Your figures don't make a lot of sense to me, buts its been years since I've done alot of the math, but I can't imagine an accurate calculation of existing broadcast power, perhaps the local Radio and TV stations. But there are CB, Cellular, satalite, microwave, shortwave, HAM, and most likely a few others as well. Even if its only possible to tap 1/1000th of what's availiable, thats still in the kilowatt range, and plenty to power a few aplications in the home... --- T.A.G. 2.6 Standard * Origin: The Program Exchange (1:3633/133@FIDONET.ORG) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 501 1-22-92 5:18pm Area: Home Power From: Jim Dunmyer To: Jim Love Re: Computers & Mirrors Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > where to get the inter-faces > between the computer and the external > device. That was something I > was wondering about. > > a) What are some things that can be used to > keep the correct mirror > angles. I've thought of a satelite dish > mechanism but I think > that would be expensive. A company called Alpha Products sells stuff that will interface between a PC and A/D convertors, D/A convertors, banks of relays, and *stepper motors*. This last item is what you'd probably want. > > 2. Would directing the sun with a mirror onto > a PV increase its power. > This may be a dumb question, but hey I don't > know. If so what is the > limit. Yes, as long as you don't overheat the PV array. > > 4. If you hooked up a bicycle wheel windmill > to an old appliance motor, > it would produce AC right? After converting > it to DC, would you get a > lot of power? Would it be worth doing? There > always seems to be a lot > of old motors kicking around at garage sales. An AC appliance motor doesn't really make a very good generator. Even if it did, it'd be pretty low-powered. > If someone build a similar weight, could you > use wind power and basic > gearing to raise the weight to the top of a > tower, thereby storing > kinetic energy to be released (Using gears) at > a later time. The energy > would be used to run a electric generator. > For example, a > 1000 Kg piece of concrete raised to a distance > of 10 meters? How long > could you run a 12 inch black and white TV. I went through the calculations on this quite some time ago and decided that only very small amounts of power could be practically stored this way. Here's the numbers you need to punch into your calculator: 1 HP = 750 watts 1 HP= 33,000 ft-lbs per minute --- OPMED 3.00 * Origin: EchoMaster (1:234/100) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 502 1-18-92 8:16pm Area: Home Power From: Joel Kerr To: Bill Transue Re: Home power control Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ hi there bill there are people using computers to control their homes there is one bbs CIRCIUT CELLAR that deals with this and other usages of control, data gathering and pure messing around with electronics. elektor electronics had 2 areticles esp on the roemote control of relasys and accessory wquipment (OOPS) If your wish to leave a mailing address I can p-stat the articles for u Joel Kerr --- QuickBBS 2.75 * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 503 1-23-92 11:15pm Area: Home Power From: Gale Barrows To: Don Kuhla Re: new connection Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ At Last !!! Ken Taylor's board Grey Eagle (109/312) (703-534-0177) has made the connection and is now carrying this echo in Falls Church, Virginia. The attempt a connection has been ongoing for sometime but somebody further up the line had misspelled the echo name and Ken was unable to get the correction made earlier. --- msged 1.99S ZTC * Origin: Custer's Last Point - Custer, S.Dak. (1:109/312.348) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 513 1-25-92 08:10am Area: Home Power From: Jeff Burns To: All Re: Phase Change Material Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I'm wondering if any one in this conference has any information on a type of phase change material that I can use on my farm. What I need is something which freezes at about 62 deg. F. so that I can use it in my field tunnels to help raise the temp at night. I'm not sure that it will work as it is not well insulated, so maybe I'll need several materials that freeze at different descending values. Also I am still looking for any kind of information on the design, construction, and/or operation of methane digestors.\ Namaste' j. --- GEcho/beta * Origin: The HELIX | NW Environment | HST*DS | (206)782-3365 (1:343/74) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 514 1-25-92 07:43am Area: Home Power From: Mike May To: Joel Kerr Re: Home power control Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ JK> hi there bill there are people using computers to control their JK> homes JK> there is one bbs CIRCIUT CELLAR that deals with this and other usages JK> of control, data gathering and pure messing around with electronics. How about a phone number for the BBS? --- Echodor 3.10a * Origin: Mike's Maze - Webster NY (716)872-0128 HST (1:260/202.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 515 1-26-92 08:53am Area: Home Power From: Bob Campbell To: Don Kulha Re: Tesla's Contributions Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ DK> JB> 1). What rotational speeds are being spoken of? DK> JB> (15,000rpm? 50,000rpm?) DK> Somewhere between 10,000 to 30,000 rpm. I've heard DK> of them producing reasonable efficency at 5-6,000 but DK> optimally it should be higher (the centrifugal force DK> working on the motive fluid forces it to taker a longer DK> path at higher speeds hence more opportunity for the DK> boundary layer disk/fluid friction to transfer power. ... DK> devices longevity. The design I'm working on uses DK> Aluminum for housing and manifolding with 303 stainless DK> shaft, disks and spacers. The aluminum is in there DK> mainly for ease of machining, cost and wieght but may DK> need anodizing....DCK These are good points in favor of the tesla turbine. But considering the cost of materials and narrow specifications required to build a Tesla turbine, I wonder if the extra efficiency is worth the price. Why couldn't the same system be made using more conventional turbines. The loss of efficency could be made up by using larger collectors, which I assume would be just a little cheaper than building a Tesla turbine. --- OPMED 3.00 * Origin: Flashpoint, Dive Safely - First Time, Feet First . (1:119/911.1) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 516 1-27-92 06:55am Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Jeff Burns Re: Phase Change Material Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ JB> I'm wondering if any one in this conference has any information JB> on a type of phase change material that I can use on my farm. JB> What I need is something which freezes at about 62 deg. F. so JB> that I can use it in my field tunnels to help raise the temp at JB> night. I'm not sure that it will work as it is not well JB> insulated, so maybe I'll need several materials that freeze at JB> different descending values. JB> Also I am still looking for any kind of information on the JB> design, construction, and/or operation of methane digestors.\ On the methane issue I'd reccomend you contact the Home Power folks and see about buying a copy of the current issue (#26) which has an excellent article on methane along with a bunch of other interesting stuff. It costs $3.50 and they can be reached at POB 130, Hornbrook CA 96044. You also might enclosed an SASE and a note for Don Hargrove as he used to offer free info on phase change materials (suppliers, types, etc.) but I'm not sure if this offer is still good. The methane article in HP 26 is oriented toward hands-on and home built so you should be able to make good use of it. Now getting back to the PCM's...... (Quoted from Don Hargrove, Home Power Mag #5) "Well there just might be a solution in regards to BTU or heat storage. Let's look at how we might store alot of BTU's in a small space. PCM's or Phase- Change materials are eutectic salts with the ability to do just that. When any substance goes through a "phase-change"; solid to liquid to gas, alot of latent heat is absorbed by that material to make that change. Conversely that heat is given up when that material is cooled or changes back to its prior state." "These eutectic salts are unique in that they change state or melt at temperatures ranging from 45iF to 90iF, depending on their application and addition of other salts." "My research has shown that the two most commonly used PCM's which have an applicable range of melting and freezing points are as follows: 1) calcium chloride hexahydrate 2) sodium sulfate decahydrate. The dexahydrate is also known as Glauber's salt." "Many, many types of containers have been tried. The in variety includes plastics, aluminum foil, high & low density polyethylene pipes & trays; along with rubber balls, stainless steel & plated tubes." "The concerning factors with containers being heat conductivity, durability, and the transpiration or the ability of the container not to let water vapor pass either in or out of the container. Recently steel and UV inhibited plastics seem to be out front." "Environmental impact is low. Companies claim PCM's occur naturally in nature and are PH nuetural. Added salts and cement are also non-hazardous" --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 523 1-26-92 12:47pm Area: Home Power From: Jim Bianchi To: Don Kulha Re: Tesla'S Contributions Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ DK > JB> Don -- this thing with the Tesla bladeless turbine discs requi > JB> stainless for construction mat'l is interesting. I've only vaguel > JB> following this particular topic, so, could you or someone else pl > JB> answer some questions? > > Sure, though you should note that I'm far from an expert. You > don't necessarily need to use Stainless but it seems close to optimal. Ok. It seems the reason for stainless being selected is mostly for its strength in the thicknesses used, as opposed to a composite mat'l which, to a large degree, seems to obtain its strength from slightly greater thick- nesses (or is my thinking off, re: composite mat'ls?), or glass which would tend to come apart under the rotational forces, correct? I recall you once (humorously) suggested titanium as an ideal mat'l to use, if only it weren't so damn pricey -- and difficult to machine/work with. I take it that, within reason, weight is not a consideration. Have you considered using Monel metal discs? I'd say that the problem here would be obtaining flat sheet stock of the required thinness, but it might be worth a try. I b'lieve that in corrosion resistance and stength, its right up there with stainless. I'm unsure about its cost though -- it might be greater in the sizes you're talking. Ok. Blue skying it for a moment, the reason you require rigidity at speed is to preserve the inter disc dimensions conductive to boundary layer transmittal of force, correct? Question: Will the motive fluid enter the ..um, "blade chamber" from the side or axially? It would seem that if you spin a TISSUE PAPER disc with a (carefully calculated) weighted rim at 30k rpm, it's gonna be fairly rigid perpendicular to the axis at speed. I'm thinking along the lines of, say, a 5.25" floppy disc (without the jacket of course) that has a (slight) taper towards the center. Now if you drove this at, say, 5k rpm, likely it would collapase. But the weight of the (very slightly) thicker rim should serve to "pull" the mat'l out rigid at 30k rpm. Of course, this requires rethinking the "start up" cycle. You'd have to bring the unit "up to speed" before turning on the motive fluid stream, but hey, no problemo -- we can bolt up an ELECTRIC MOTOR! * JABBER v1.1B10 #b003 * "Beam me aboard, Scotty." "Aye, will a 1" x 10" do?" --- * Origin: Babble Underground (707) 575-0636 (1:125/180) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 524 1-28-92 10:59pm Area: Home Power From: Bob Campbell To: Harvey Hazelett Re: Energy? Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > scale. Your figures don't make a lot of sense to me, > buts its been years since I've done alot of the math, > but I can't imagine an accurate calculation of existing > broadcast power, perhaps the local Radio and TV > stations. But there are CB, Cellular, satalite, > microwave, shortwave, HAM, and most likely a few others > as well. Even if its only possible to tap 1/1000th of > what's availiable, thats still in the kilowatt range, > and plenty to power a few aplications in the home... Here's a picture. It's pretty simple went you look at it on paper. As you get further from the source, the power decreases exponentially. You would have to live right next door to a stations antenna to grab even a small amount for power. | \ | / \ | / picks up | \ | / | picks up maybe 12% 1% | <--------- 50KW ---->| | / | \ | / | \ / | \ ^ ^ ^ Far antenna Radio Station Close antenna --- OPMED 3.00 * Origin: Flashpoint, Dive Safely - First Time, Feet First . (1:119/911.1) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 556 1-27-92 01:27am Area: Home Power From: Jim Love To: Don Kulha Re: Mirrors Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > There are ready made sun trackers available made >for optimizing the output of photovoltaic cells (most quote >arount a 20% improvement in output). Some uses gasses >(Zomeworks) and others (noteably Wattsun) use CdSe >photocells and servo motors to aim the collector array. I >believe they range in price from $350-$700. The main use I can see the mirrors for is to concentrate the heat on a "Bread Box?" collector. I would have the mirrors track the Sun mathematically. I think it would be fairly easy to calculate the correct path of the Sun given the date, time, and location on the planet. Cost savings could be achieved with the small collector design. Now there will be costs in setting up the mirror tracking system. But I can use the mirrors for a dual porpose. Once I have my collector water hot enough my computer will focus the beams on various light pipes. Or I could have it focus on a "Solar Closet drier", or on my steps so I don't have to shovel them. Hey, I'm lazy. Laziness is the Mother of Invention. Or if I had a neighbor I could share the light if I didn't need it. > Fiber would be a poor candidate for this and the cost would be >incredible. I have seen concentrated light focused, turned What about light piping for general lighting. I've heard there's a new kind of flexible pipe out. ___ * SLMR 2.0 * Bring me a shrrubbberrrrriiiiiieeeee ! ! ! --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Connections BBS - Calgary, Alta. Canada - (403)246-2183 (1:134/32) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 557 1-27-92 9:04pm Area: Home Power From: Gale Barrows To: Harvey Hazelett Re: Energy? Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ It seems the big problem involved in "salvaging" the energy emmitted by a radio or tv station transmitter would be the disperesion of that energy. While 10,000 watts of energy might be being transmitted, only a very small portion of that is dirested to any particular area or spot dur to the basic fact that that energy is being transmitted in a (generaly) 360 degree radius of the transmitting antenna. There is also the energy that is transmitted in a delta pattern verticaly. Much of the energy is passing far overhead and much is being absorbed by the ground or reflected by the ground in myriad directions. The amopunt of energy that could be "snarred" by even a large reciever area at any distance (probably 50 or more miles away but maybe as close as 5-10) would be such a small percentage of the original emmitted amount as to make it's "salvage" value minnimal. --- msged 1.99S ZTC * Origin: Custer's Last Point - Custer, S.Dak. (1:109/312.348) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 558 1-27-92 9:24pm Area: Home Power From: Gale Barrows To: Jim Bianchi Re: Tesla's Contributions Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ JB> Don -- this thing with the Tesla bladeless turbine discs JB> requiring JB> stainless for construction mat'l is interesting. I've only JB> vaguely been JB> following this particular topic, so, could you or someone else JB> please JB> answer some questions? JB> JB> 1). What rotational speeds are being spoken of? (15,000rpm? JB> 50,000rpm?) JB> JB> 2). What is seen as the optimum medium for propulsion? JB> (Air? Steam? JB> Water? Another fluid?) JB> JB> 3). What will be the temperature of this medium? (Hot? JB> Cold? Neutral?) JB> JB> 4). Will this medium be corrosive in any way? JB> Maybe Ron Smith, with his aircraft experience, or Ed Harris could shed some light here. Those boys seem to know metals. Actualy, somebody in the aviation turbine engine fild might have some good answers. --- msged 1.99S ZTC * Origin: Custer's Last Point - Custer, S.Dak. (1:109/312.348) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 559 1-27-92 9:34pm Area: Home Power From: Gale Barrows To: Don Kulha Re: Turbine Parts Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Having come in late, I was unsure what a Tesla turbine was. My impression is that it is essentialy an arraingement of mirrors in a turbine form. It would seem that the theory is that the mirrors would reflect or redirect light, the energy of that redirected light being partialy used to turn the turbine, much like an air or water turbine. It could even be likened to the action of the torque convertor used with the automatic transmission in a car. The material used in the turbine would not have to be particularly strong since there would not be a material as viscous as water, steam or air directed against it. What would seem to be required would be something that is tough yet relatively light and able to be polished to a high degree. Tesla's choice of German silver or nickel silver would seem to be a natural. PS- Theressa's horse tack decorations would not be a good source. Remember where you took her on your first date! She says she has improved since then !!! Actualy, a jewelry materials wholesaler woul;d be a good source for the stuff. --- msged 1.99S ZTC * Origin: Custer's Last Point - Custer, S.Dak. (1:109/312.348) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 560 1-29-92 10:46am Area: Home Power From: David Hinerman To: Gale Barrows Re: Energy? Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In a message of , Gale Barrows (1:109/312.348) writes: >It seems the big problem involved in "salvaging" the energy >emmitted by a radio or tv station transmitter would be the >disperesion of that energy. Gale, You are correct. The inverse square law states that energy density (watts per square meter, for example) decreses as the square of the distance from the source. If a collector 100 feet from the transmitter receives 100 watts per square meter, a collector 200 feet from the tranmitter receives 25 watts per square meter. Unfortunately, this also applies to radio energy in a tight beam pattern. All the beam does is takes energy that would normally be radiated in one direction and send it in another. Once it leaves the antenna, it is still subject to the inverse square law. Dave --- msged 2.07 * Origin: South Parking Lot (614) 351-2274 (1:226/330) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 561 1-30-92 09:35am Area: Home Power From: Scott Parks To: Mike May Re: Home power control Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > JK> hi there bill there are people using computers to control their homes > JK> there is one bbs CIRCIUT CELLAR that deals with this and other usages > JK> of control, data gathering and pure messing around with electronics. > How about a phone number for the BBS? If he does not send it ..... it's listed in the magazine of the same name. Worth a look if you have not seen it before. --- GEcho/beta * Origin: The HELIX | NW Environment | HST*DS | (206)782-3365 (1:343/74) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 562 1-30-92 7:39pm Area: Home Power From: Steve Kochak To: All Re: EPIC BBS Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Call the EPIC BBS (818) 788-5573! iles, Messages, Games! --- * Origin: Woolf Software Technical BBS, West Hills, CA 818-999-0925 (1:102/808 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 563 1-27-92 10:36am Area: Home Power From: Michael Favor To: Don Kulha Re: Broadcast Energy Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ DK> I will admitt to being a bit lerry of the idea of broadcasting DK> energy. I'm not so sure that it would be very healthy. i dont think the problem with this is health so much, but physics. a general, omni-directional broadcast is always going to suffer tremendous losses of efficiency because of the inverse-square law. in other words, you can only recieve the power that is being sent in your direction, which decreases as the square of the distance from the transmitter, so most of it would be lost. michael. --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Humanity Net BBS (1:119/4) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 564 1-27-92 10:40am Area: Home Power From: Michael Favor To: Don Kulha Re: Tesla's Contributions Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ DK> The design I'm working on uses DK> Aluminum for housing and manifolding with 303 stainless DK> shaft, disks and spacers. The aluminum is in there DK> mainly for ease of machining, cost and wieght but may DK> need anodizing....DCK how big would this unit be? ie: what is the diameter of the disks, and the length of the shaft? have you started putting any of these pieces together yet? also, could you post the address for the source of flat 303 stainless that you found (i think you said it was in L.A.)? warmly, michael. --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Humanity Net BBS (1:119/4) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 565 1-28-92 06:40am Area: Home Power From: David Knapp To: Don Kulha Re: Electric/Alternative Powered Cars Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Howdy, Don! In a message to David Knapp <24 Jan 92 21:59> Don Kulha enscribed: DK> the folks at the Northbay chapter of the DK> CA state electric vehicle society tried to reach me today and DK> wanted more info on what we are doing DK> and how to participate.....Lets hope! Sounds great! Most of what I've seen personally seems to be run on a shoe string budget. Not much happening in N. IL at all here (but we're trying). I have visited several small production facilities and most of them are still in business because of their shear belief in the fact that people will one day wake up and not want to breathe 100 forms of poison on their way to work each day. There are many more advantages than that, but it's a start . Dave via "eXpress Response" The Universal OffLine Reader Editor --- RA 1.10+ via MkXRS 1.03 * Origin: The Silver Dragon Inn * (815) 633-6455 (1:2210/633) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 566 2-01-92 08:14am Area: Home Power From: Mike May To: Scott Parks Re: Home power control Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ SP> > JK> hi there bill there are people using computers to control their SP> homes SP> > JK> there is one bbs CIRCIUT CELLAR that deals with this and other SP> usages SP> > JK> of control, data gathering and pure messing around with SP> electronics. SP> SP> > How about a phone number for the BBS? SP> SP> If he does not send it ..... it's listed in the magazine of the same SP> name. Worth a look if you have not seen it before. Ok thanks. On another note I just received a file yesterday on my BBS that is for use with the X10 systems. It uses a computer to control everything in the house. It even comes with several "canned" programs for it. Looks like it is easy to modify. There was some sort of computer interface module you need that I don't have but it does look interesting. If anyone is interested in it my BBS number is in the tag line below. Sorry I don't have it set up for File Requests. You will be able to download on your first call though. The file name is X10_XA06.ARJ it will be in the "Recent Upload" area for awhile and then it will be moved to the "Misc" area. Do a [S]earch on X10*.* and it will tell you where it is. =M=M= --- Echodor 3.10a * Origin: Mike's Maze - Webster NY (716)872-0128 HST (1:260/202.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 567 2-03-92 03:14am Area: Home Power From: Ray Gillman To: Mike May Re: Home power control Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ If you have any more info on these home power usage computer systems please post it up here. The message volume was soo low on here the past few days I had given up on getting any messages (almost). I've recently started to try to cut my electric bills by determining which appliances use which amounts of power and using the ones which draw the most less. Electric water heater, Electric Household Central Heater, Electric Stove Top, and the variety of 300 watt TV sets running in several rooms seem to create the biggest draws, and the Refrigerator. Any ideas as to energy saving tricks are always helpful! Showers use less hot water. Soaking dishes allows you to save hot water in the dishwasher by using shorter cycle. Washing Clothes in warm or cool water usually gets them just as clean. Saving Hot water not only saves energy heating the water but also cuts the water bills. Ventilate the attic in the summer and seal it for the winter. Walk around your house at bedtime and turn everything off. That last one seems to be saving a good ten bux more a month. We've got ridiculously high electric here in Dallas and I've cut my average bills from $220 down to around $150 per month for a good sized 3-2-2 house and we suffer no real reduction in services/luxuries. --- FIDOdoor 3.0.7 [Registered] * Origin: The Battlemech BBS (1:124/3119.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 568 2-02-92 02:02am Area: Home Power From: Jim Love To: David Knapp Re: Electric Vehicles Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ >Howdy, Don! >In a message to David Knapp <24 Jan 92 21:59> Don Kulha enscribed: > DK> the folks at the Northbay chapter of the > DK> CA state electric vehicle society tried to reach me today and > DK> wanted more info on what we are doing > DK> and how to participate.....Lets hope! Is anyone working on a pedal/electric vehicle. If you have a recumbant bike (Your on your back) with a electric cut over once you reached a certian speed, it would extent the range you could cycle. Does anyone sell a gearing setup for this sort of thing. What kind of power would you need to run a bike at 60 or 70 Km/hr? Could you have a variable power system whereby the electric allowed the pedalling to be easier? I'd like to get rid of my Gas-powered car one day and I see this as being an alternative for me. ___ * SLMR 2.0 * Bring me a shrrubbberrrrriiiiiieeeee ! ! ! --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Connections BBS - Calgary, Alta. Canada - (403)246-2183 (1:134/32) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 569 2-01-92 02:07am Area: Home Power From: Gale Barrows To: Jeff Burns Re: Phase Change Material Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ JB> I'm wondering if any one in this conference has any JB> information JB> on a type of phase change material that I can use on my JB> farm. JB> What I need is something which freezes at about 62 deg. JB> F. so JB> that I can use it in my field tunnels to help raise the JB> temp at JB> night. I'm not sure that it will work as it is not well JB> insulated, so maybe I'll need several materials that JB> freeze at JB> different descending values. JB> JB> Also I am still looking for any kind of information on JB> the JB> design, construction, and/or operation of methane JB> digestors.\ I apparently do not quite understand what you are trying to do or rather how you plan on doing it. Why not use a non-toxic liquid with a low freezing point such as a water alcohol mix? If you were to use a slow circulation system with ocaisional solar heaters, it would seem like the soil could be kept warmer. Heavy insulatiopn would seem to defeat any warming purpose. --- msged 1.99S ZTC * Origin: Custer's Last Point - Custer, S.Dak. (1:109/312.348) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 582 2-08-92 08:37am Area: Home Power From: Harvey Hazelett To: All Re: Wind power Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ A friend of mine wants to get into wind power, and asked me a few things that I wasn't entirely sure about, so figured I should post it here and see what comes up. First, he plans to use some 12vdc fan motors out of junked cars as his generators. The output would be sent through a regulator and to charge a bank of lead/acid batteries (all from cars...). Basically he wants to light a huge house with flourescent tubes, and do his shop with light and power to recharge his cordless tools (builds cabnets for a living). Anyway, not too sure what kind of output he can expect from thoses motors, but I do know that our wind here is pretty consistant, few dead days here there, some days... well tornados and huricanes. So, he will need some method to keep the shaft of the motor spinning at a more or less consistant speed, and some way to protect it during high winds. Don't know what sort of regulator would be best, since it would sort of depend on the electricity being produced, but figured the automotive regulator wouldn't last to very long. Also wasn't too sure to suggest buying or building an inverter (12vdc -> 110vac 60 cycles), or if there are cheap and easily found 12v ballasts (maybe recreation vehicles). Figured it'll be best to do the inverter for his cordless shop tools, but it would be more efficient to run the lights of the 12vdc, but then again he could expect huges losses through the resistance of the wires he would need to run the house lights. Think he would like to get the shop done first to see how well it goes, and how much it'll cost him, then expand it to the house if all goes well. Just wondering if anybody has done a similar project, or knows of some good sources for finding a few answers to these questions. Sounds quite in expensive, and I might consider a similar project for myself, as my electric bill is only around $65 a month, could almost free myself from public utilities... --- T.A.G. 2.6 Standard * Origin: The Program Exchange (1:3633/133@FIDONET.ORG) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 587 2-04-92 9:17pm Area: Home Power From: Mark Whitaker To: All Re: tides Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Has anyone out there ever heard of anyone using ocean tidal activity in any way to generate electricity? I have had some ideas, but am as of yet not equipped with the proper engineering/physics knowledge to know whether it would be practical or not. I've also heard of ideas to generate electricity from the temperature differential between shallow water and deeper water. Unfortuneately, I am still working towards a physics class in college, must master calculus first... --- GEcho/beta * Origin: Let's hook 'er up! <> Oh NO! (1:352/777) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 588 2-03-92 3:42pm Area: Home Power From: Timothy Hutzler To: Wendell Quillen Re: Microwave Cooling Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Does your idea employ an absorption method? If if does, how do you propose to achieve efficiencies greater than direct heat input. --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Humanity Net BBS (1:119/4) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 589 2-04-92 6:17pm Area: Home Power From: Jim Dunmyer To: Ray Gillman Re: Home power control Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > I've recently > started to try to cut my electric bills by determining > which appliances use which amounts of power and using > the ones which draw the most less. Electric water Ray, I've observed soemthing over the years that should be self-evident, but isn't to many folks: It's not just the high-current devices that run up your electric bill, it's the high duty-cycle ones. I never notice an effect on my bill of using the electric welder, but a drainage lift pump that runs many hours in the Spring will cost big $$$ all by itself. A stove won't run up your bill very much, but an electric water heater will. In the field of alternate energy, you must look at these devices in different terms. Some large-draw appliances may need to be powered from something other than your "primary" power source. In other words, it's probably impractical to power an electric water heater from a P.V. setup, it would make more sense to use the solar energy directly for water heating. An electric stove should perhaps be replaced with either a wood cookstove or a propane-fired gas stove. One thing for sure: When you provide the power yourself, you get real cognizant of how it's used and/or wasted!! --- OPMED 3.00 * Origin: EchoMaster (1:234/100) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 590 2-05-92 11:13pm Area: Home Power From: Bob Campbell To: Jim Love Re: Electric Vehicles Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ There's an interesting article in the March Discover Magazine about Paul MacCready and AeroVironment. They are working with GM to mass produce the "Impact" an electric sports car that will do 0-60 in less than 8 seconds. At GM's proving grounds the prototype left a Miata and a Nissan 300zx in it's dust! The Impact gets about 120 miles to the charge and tops out at 110 MPH. The car even has air conditioning! BTW a 120 mile charge will costs a little more than a gallon of gas. A prototype has been built and it's planned to be in production by about 1996. --- OPMED 3.00 * Origin: Flashpoint, Dive Safely - First Time, Feet First . (1:119/911.1) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 591 2-06-92 5:51pm Area: Home Power From: Dennis Garringer To: Mark Whitaker Re: Tides Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Mark, I remember seeing something in Mother Earth maybe 10 years ago where they were using a tower with a floating platform to generate electricity. Not clear as to how it worked, but if memeory serves me, they used the ups and downs of the swells to power a hydraulic system that powered the generator. Hope this is of help.......... Bye!! --- QuickBBS 2.66.r * Origin: Wildfire - Save the Earth... Conserve & Recycle . (1:119/911.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 592 2-02-92 8:20pm Area: Home Power From: Donald Wilton To: All Re: Magnus Rotors, Wind Power Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ This is an open question concerning magnus rotors, and their usefulness, and general utility, vs a vs other forms of wind power. I have thought to try building a small parasail kite, and try to rig a wind power electric generator from it. I seem to remember reading that the level of wind movement was stronger and more consistent at higher altitudes, and I wonder if putting the wind generator up there would make a difference. Would it? * MegaMail 2.1* #0:Walk softly and carry a 500 gigawatt laser --- * Origin: CRYSTAL PALACE BBS (415)564-5623 (1:125/53) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 593 2-06-92 08:38am Area: Home Power From: David Hinerman To: Mark Whitaker Re: tides Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In a message of , Mark Whitaker (1:352/777) writes: >Has anyone out there ever heard of anyone using ocean tidal >activity in any way to generate electricity? I have had some >ideas, but am as of yet not equipped with the proper >engineering/physics knowledge to know whether it would be >practical or not. I've also heard of ideas to generate >electricity from the temperature differential between shallow >water and deeper water. Unfortuneately, I am still working >towards a physics class in college, must master calculus first... Mark, There have been small-scale experiments using a tide pool to drive a small water wheel. When the tide comes in it fills a pool through a narrow channel where the wheel is located. The wheel turns, driving a generator. When the tide goes out, the pool drains back out through the same channel, again driving the wheel. I don't know what kind of yield they got. Dave --- msged 2.07 * Origin: South Parking Lot (614) 351-2274 (1:226/330) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 594 2-06-92 06:10am Area: Home Power From: Brent Wilde To: Mark Whitaker Re: tides Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In a message dated 04 Feb 92 21:17:00, Mark Whitaker wrote: MW> Has anyone out there ever heard of anyone using ocean tidal activity MW> in any way to generate electricity? I have had some ideas, but am as MW> of yet not equipped with the proper engineering/physics knowledge to MW> know whether it would be practical or not. I've also heard of ideas MW> to generate electricity from the temperature differential between MW> shallow water and deeper water. Unfortuneately, I am still working MW> towards a physics class in college, must master calculus first... At Expo in Vancouver, Sweden had a display of it's oil refinery equipment and one of the display'ss on-shore on a wanerator..looked like a ke a lighthouse ,a wave would wash in to a cavity at the bottom and move up into a funnel..Then when the water washed out the (screw?) would capture the resultant energy from the momentum..They said that any place like the atlantic seaboard were high tidal forces is a ideal place for them.. They have a pilot generator in place now for some years..If you would like too no more i will send you there address to recieve a brochure... --- DLG Pro v0.985b/DLGMail 1.00k * Origin: TERRA-FIRMA-BBS VAN.BC (1:153/765) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 595 2-06-92 10:23am Area: Home Power From: Jim Henry To: All Re: SOLAR Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I'm really glad to find this message base/echo here! I just ordered plans from Mother Earth News for the window mounted Solar heat grabber and hope to build one or more. Does anyone have experience with these? It looks both simple and promising. ---RyPacker v2.42 e * Origin: East Co Bear 215 755-1917 South Philly, USA [PGBA] (1:273/910) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 596 2-06-92 12:05am Area: Home Power From: Steve Gresser To: Mark Whitaker Re: tides Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Has anyone out there ever heard of anyone using ocean tidal activity in > any way to generate electricity? I have had some ideas, but am as of yet > not equipped with the proper engineering/physics knowledge to know > whether it would be practical or not. I've also heard of ideas to > generate electricity from the temperature differential between shallow > water and deeper water. Unfortuneately, I am still working towards a > physics class in college, must master calculus first... While the information that I have is limited to what I have seen on some television shows (don't know why I haven't noticed any magazine write-ups), I can tell you that although the actual action of tides themselves is not being used, the action of WAVES is! Through a special innovative blade-design, a company (probably Japanese) has set up tubes on the shores of some of the more sheer coastal areas, I believe in England. What happens is, a wave comes up to the tube and exerts great air pressure force upward through the tube, spinning the turbine. Then, as the wave recedes (relative to the tube, I assume), an equal force is exerted towards the vacuum, or sucking air into the tube. Because of the blade design, the turbine continues to turn for both forces. Really efficient, so I understand. Anyway, tidal forces, while massive, are fairly slow and not as easily harnessed to useful efficiencies. Steve --- * Origin: Remotron HQ BBS, Scottsdale, AZ (1:114/37) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 597 2-02-92 10:28pm Area: Home Power From: Joel Kerr To: Mike May Re: Circuit Cellar BBS Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ the BBS tele # is 203 871 1988 3/12/24 24hrs/7days HOWEVER the latest issue of the cellar is ALL building automation it is FEB/MAR '92 issue 25 office tele # is 203 875 2751 one year 6 issues is 17.95 Joel Kerr --- QuickBBS 2.75 * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 598 2-03-92 10:52pm Area: Home Power From: Joel Kerr To: Jeff Burns Re: phase chage material Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ jeff are you trying to prevent the freezing of your crops? if so how large an area is being discussed? I have used 1 galplastic milk jugs filled with black water ( water with cloth dye in it ) to act as row cover supports and to act as a heat sink to moderate night time temperatures . Thsi has allowed me to start corm and melons about 3 weeks ahead of other people in CT I also use black plastic sheeting to warm the soil befor planting. every bity of heat ratained by the soil is going to help. methane digesters latest issue of BACK HOME has a starting article on it their address is PO BOX 370 Mountain Home, NC 28758 see if there is anyone near u with back issues of TMEN they ran articles on methane in the '70's Joel Kerr --- QuickBBS 2.75 * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 599 2-06-92 8:56pm Area: Home Power From: Ken Taylor To: Mark Whitaker Re: tides Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ On , Mark Whitaker (1:352/777) wrote to All: MW>Has anyone out there ever heard of anyone using ocean tidal activity in MW>any way to generate electricity? Seems to me that I have heard that the Netherlands are using tidal powered turbines. Possibly in Great Britain also. Might want to drop a note to their Embassies and ask about it. --- msged 2.08 * Origin: Ken's Point - Falls Church, Va. (1:109/312.314) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 600 2-06-92 7:12pm Area: Home Power From: Kirk Dehaan To: All Re: Reference material Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I'm planning on building a bicycle generator for charging batteries, running lights, etc. My general plan is to have an alternator with a heavy flywheel mounted to a multi gear bike. What I'm looking for is some reference material on things like gear ratios, flywheel weights, etc. This is new endeavor for me so I know little about it. Any help in pointing me to something is appreciated. BTW, The Rising Storm BBS in Sunnyvale is picking up this echo. Kirk --- WM v2.01/92-0010 * Origin: The Rising Storm - Sunnyvale, Ca. 408-739-8693 (1:143/220) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 604 2-10-92 07:30am Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Kirk Dehaan Re: Reference material Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ KD> I'm planning on building a bicycle generator for charging batteries, KD> running lights, etc. My general plan is to have an alternator with a KD> heavy flywheel mounted to a multi gear bike. What I'm looking for is KD> some reference material on things like gear ratios, flywheel weights, KD> etc. This is new endeavor for me so I know little about it. Any help KD> in pointing me to something is appreciated. KD> BTW, The Rising Storm BBS in Sunnyvale is picking up this echo. Hi Kirk, glad to see ya online here with us.... Re: Bicycle generated power.....I haven't read much about this though I know there are a couple companies building these systems. Now what I did read that may be helpful was that an athletic human being can generate 100 watts for an hour or so...note that I said athletic. I believe that it said the average person can reasonably generate about 45 watts for an hour. Some of the info on human powered flight might be helpful. I'll find the info on the bicycle power kits and get back to you. Some years back I was "tricking out" my ten-speed. I looked high and low for the highest output generator for my bike. I believe the output at full chat was something like 18-20 watts. I mounted an accessory turning light from a motorcycle with a smaller (wattage) bulb in it and used a regular bike tail light. The generator drag was considerable. I don't think that having a heavy flywheel would really buy you much...if anything it would cost you energy in additional bearing loads and wind resistance. Real Goods in Ukiah, CA was selling a kit for $245 (still may). I just found this info: "This 100 watt bicycle powered benerator/battery charger appears to be the only high quality and dependable small generator manufactured that can be run by a bicycle. It comes with a stand to accept any 3 or 10 speed bicycle and exercise bikes. Also included is the generator, an ammeter and all the wores to hook up to your battery system. The bicycle generator will produce 8 amps at 12vdc when pedalling at full stregnth. A human adult can only provide about 100 watts (1/7th horespower) for any period of time" You can reach Real Goods at 1-800-762-7325 for more info and/or a catalog. Regards, Don Kulha, Moderator HOMEPOWR --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 605 2-05-92 02:05am Area: Home Power From: Jim Love To: Gale Barrows Re: Phase Change Material Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ >I apparently do not quite understand what you are trying to do or rather >how you plan on doing it. Why not use a non-toxic liquid >with a low freezing point such as a water alcohol mix? If >you were to use a slow circulation system with ocaisional >solar heaters, it would seem like the soil could be kept >warmer. Heavy insulatiopn would seem to defeat any >warming purpose. I don't understand what's being talked about neither. But that's OK. I was listening to the radio and these people were talking about using Canola (Rape seed oil) as a hydrolic replacement. It wasn't future-talk or anything like that. They were talking about the additives they would uses to prevent it from becoming viscous and stuff like that. They wanted to eliminate some of the hydrolic spill contamination that occurs. I thought. Maybe you could use cooking oils in a solar collector? I wonder whether they hold heat very well. How much do you think a few hundred litres of Canola would cost. Anyone out there grow oil seeds? Just think of it. Solar French Fries. > * Origin: Custer's Last Point - Custer, S.Dak. (1:109/312.348) Custer? That must be in the grain belt? ... Can't find my atlas to be sure. ___ * SLMR 2.0 * Bring me a shrrubbberrrrriiiiiieeeee ! ! ! --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Connections BBS - Calgary, Alta. Canada - (403)246-2183 (1:134/32) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 606 2-09-92 10:11am Area: Home Power From: Neall Verheyde To: Ken Taylor Re: tides Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In a message dated 06 Feb 92 20:56:02, Ken Taylor wrote: KT> Seems to me that I have heard that the Netherlands are using KT> tidal powered turbines. Possibly in Great Britain also. Might want I believe there is an experimental tidal turbine in the Bay of Funday as well. --- DLG Pro v0.985b/DLGMail 1.00k * Origin: TERRA-FIRMA-BBS VAN.BC (1:153/765) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 607 2-10-92 9:43pm Area: Home Power From: Daniel Cohen To: All Re: SOLAR ENERGY CONCERT Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I attended an alternative energy / appropriate technology fair this past weekend on the Big Island of Hawaii. There was a five hour outdoor concert entirely powered by solar energy. Many people spoke in opposition to the building of the geothermal energy station in the Puna tropical rainforest. The electric company displayed energy-efficient light bulbs. A solar electric car was also on display. More than 350 people, perhaps as many as 500 people, attended the event. --- TMail v1.25 * Origin: 59 The Daily Planet - Reno, NV - USA (1:213/111) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 613 2-09-92 7:47pm Area: Home Power From: David Smith To: David Hinerman Re: tides Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ It's not quite the same thing I know, but I have see the design of a float inteded to harnas the power of waves. It had the basic crosssection of an icecream cone with ball of icecream, the thiny part faced thedirection of incoming waves. Basicly the thin part of the float bobed up and down while the thicker part extended below the depth effected by waves. Does this help? By the way, when I has youn I remember a rather large tidal pool that had a cannal to provide access for bts. Then the tide was changing there was a VERY brisk flowdown thatchanel. I remember how we would speed along, without rowing. It was so fast there would be no chance of rowing against the flow - even power boats had a problem bucking the flow. I have a metal picture of a child in a boat (or just swiming) being sucked into some kind of waterwheel - not a happy though. Be careful in your design - there are many stupid people in this world. Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.1 --- Dogfight 2.05 (Unregistered) * Origin: THE NULL POINTER (1:2606/532) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 614 2-10-92 10:08pm Area: Home Power From: Tom Schneder To: Don Kulha Re: TESLA'S CONTRIBUTIONS Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ A steam club out of Cincinnati Ohio was working several years oga to build a Tesla turbine..And to have it tested... They went so far as to test with air presure in prepreation for live steam test... The goal was for better than 10 pounds of steam per horse power per hour... Good axial flow compound turbins get in at 8 to 9 lb/hp/h Their Tesla disk were made from Radial saw disk's... Very strong..Like you buy at "Sear's" for your electric hand saw..Gring the teeth off and ballanc...Relativity cheap when you consider the cost of machining most other products. Very strong..or leave the teeth on and get a small tooth saw blades .. I do not know what the final test results were..They had a problem getting a big enough air compressor for the test.. The unit was expected o make approx 700 horse power..if I rember right... . . Tom Schneder --- TBBS v2.1/NM * Origin: The Coffee Club BBS: 301-353-9315, Germantown, MD (1:109/426) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 615 2-12-92 6:28pm Area: Home Power From: Michael Favor To: Tom Schneder Re: TESLA'S CONTRIBUTIONS Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ TS> A steam club out of Cincinnati Ohio was working several years TS> oga to build a Tesla turbine..And to have it tested... TS> They went so far as to test with air presure in prepreation TS> for live steam test... tom, do you have an address, or phone number, or even just a name of someone in this club? i plan to attempt to build one of these turbines shortly (a much smaller one, though, 7hp maybe, not 700 (!)) but i would like to learn as much as i can from other people's experience before i sign up for the school of hard knocks. thanks, michael. --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Humanity Net BBS (1:119/4) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 616 2-11-92 1:58pm Area: Home Power From: David Hinerman To: David Smith Re: tides Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In a message of , David Smith (1:2606/532) writes: >I have >a metal picture of a child in a boat (or just swiming) being >sucked into some kind of waterwheel - not a happy though. Be >careful in your design - there are many stupid people in this >world. David, Myself included. No danger of that happening here - I live in nice, flat, dry Columbus, Ohio. Nearest tidal pool is far enough away that any power we'd generate would be lost in wire resistance getting it here. Dave --- msged 2.07 * Origin: South Parking Lot (614) 351-2274 (1:226/330) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 617 2-10-92 11:09pm Area: Home Power From: James Blake To: Ken Finney Re: Stirling engines Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In a message dated 21 Jan 92 11:27:00, Ken Finney wrote: KF> Any experience out there with Stirling cycle engines, particularily KF> building the one from the plans offered by Lindsay Publications? KF> I am planning on buying the plans, but would like feedback from KF> someone first. KF> --- GEcho/beta KF> * Origin: The HELIX | NW Environment | HST*DS | (206)782-3365 KF> (1:343/74) In my Thermodynamics class (Third year Engineering) We played around with a Sterling engine that had been built by a technician at our University who had quite a bit of interest in them. Contrary to what someone else said, they are very efficient. I think it was GE (but it may have been a different company) created a very interesting film on the Sterling engine. They showed a boat that was powered by a sterling engine. It was said to be more efficient and deffinetly quieter than a internal combustion engine. The one draw back is there expense to build and the fact that they have been widely ignored. The reason for the increased efficiency is that the heating and cooling is done only to the air. The Sterling engine we used in our Thermodynamics class was a simple fan device, and was quite effective in demostrating the possiblity available with a Sterling engine. everyone in our class was quite convinced. ..james --- DLG Pro v0.985b/DLGMail 1.00k * Origin: TERRA-FIRMA-BBS VAN.BC (1:153/765) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 618 2-14-92 11:35pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Tom Schneder Re: TESLA'S CONTRIBUTIONS Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ TS> A steam club out of Cincinnati Ohio was working several years TS> oga to build a Tesla turbine..And to have it tested... TS> They went so far as to test with air presure in prepreation TS> for live steam test... That's quite interesting. I recently got a letter from Jake Possell who is more or less the reigning expert on these devices. He told me the reason they work so well with Steam is because of the expansion characteristic and because they capture the latent heat energy as the steam recondenses in the turbine. Saw blades could work but in my experience the type metal use oxidizes too fast for a steam enviornment (considering what happens to mine if left out all night). If you run across any contact info for these folks it will be appreciated if you send it this way....DCK --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 619 2-14-92 11:44pm Area: Home Power From: Don Kulha To: Michael Favor Re: Power Turbine Hacking Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ MF> do you have an address, or phone number, or even just a name of someone MF> in this club? i plan to attempt to build one of these turbines shortly MF> (a much smaller one, though, 7hp maybe, not 700 (!)) but i would like to MF> learn as much as i can from other people's experience before i sign up MF> for the school of hard knocks. Hi Michael.....Yes, it would be interesting to talk with these folks. So darn few folks have tread this path that any clues will help. Possell offered to answer questions which could be quite valuble. We ought to collaborate some friend. Please net-mail your phone number so we can chat sometime. I was thinking that we might split this project up some how. Maybe I could build the turbine and you might build the collector or vice versa. I'm still super busy but there's light at the end of the tunnel and I have a quantity of .020 thick 303 stainless sheet for disks to play with. Now, they've gone and changed the whole CAD system on me back at the lab but in a week or two I hope to be familiar enough with the new workstations to actually get something done. An aerodynamicist gave me some interesting ideas for the shape and contour of the steam exhaust ports near the center of the disks I'd like to try. I want to build a computer model in the CAD system so I can output it to a computer numeric control mill for the machining. The concept was a little to complex to explain here but it made a lot of sense when I heard it. We'll talk......DCK --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 620 2-10-92 7:18pm Area: Home Power From: Harvey Hazelett To: 6590 Re: Tesla Turbine? Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ NOTE: This message was originally addressed to MICHAEL FAVOR and was forwarded to you by DHUGAL MCARDY -------------------- Somebody is actually building a Tesla Turbine? Wow, its something I've dreamed of, but figured I'd need to buy some machinist tools, and of course learn to use them. I've read about the turbine for years, have a few books, even a Text file or two... But, no serious plans or diagrams. Was wondering if these are availiable from some place, and also about how much its costing to build the Tesla Turbine. I would love to put one in a car, in place of the current internal combustion... --- T.A.G. 2.6 Standard SEEN-BY: 1/217 10/8 11/1 2 50 12/12 13/13 101/1 104/1 106/116 109/25 114/5 18 SEEN-BY: 124/4115 134/1 143/37 143 220 303 304 147/46 153/752 209/209 SEEN-BY: 260/260 620 266/22 275/13 280/1 290/627 396/1 15 --- WM v2.00/91-0089 * Origin: Lynn-Western Newswires 408-778-5994 (1:143/304) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 621 1-27-92 10:44pm Area: Home Power From: Tom Raab To: Jim Love Re: Computers & Mirrors Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In a message to All, dated , Jim Love writes: .... JL>I wondered: JL>If someone build a similar weight, could you use wind power and basic JL>gearing to raise the weight to the top of a tower, thereby storing JL>kinetic energy to be released (Using gears) at a later time. The energy JL>would be used to run a electric generator. For example, a JL>1000 Kg piece of concrete raised to a distance of 10 meters? How long JL>could you run a 12 inch black and white TV. ... If I remember my Physic properly, the energy used to raise the weight is the "Kinetic Energy". When you have the weight raised, you have stored "Potential Energy". As the weight is dropped, the Potential energy decreases and the Kinetic energy increased. But due to friction, the Kinetic Energy to raise the weight will never equal the energy receive during the drop. --- msged 2.00 * Origin: The RaabApple (2010/6) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 622 2-11-92 02:11am Area: Home Power From: Jeff Burns To: Gale Barrows Re: Phase Change Material Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ GB>I apparently do not quite understand what you are trying to do or rather GB>how you plan on doing it. Why not use a non-toxic liquid GB>with a low freezing point such as a water alcohol mix? If GB>you were to use a slow circulation system with ocaisional GB>solar heaters, it would seem like the soil could be kept GB>warmer. Heavy insulatiopn would seem to defeat any GB>warming purpose. The purpose for this is to keep the temperatures for warm loving plants ( tomatoes, peppers, eggplant ect.) in field tunnels over 60 deg. at night when the outside temperature is in the 50's. Namaste' j. X SLMR 2.0 X Nothing is so smiple that it can't get screwed up. --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Socialism OnLine! * +1(719)392-7781 * Venceremos! * (1:128/105) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 623 2-11-92 02:11am Area: Home Power From: Jeff Burns To: Joel Kerr Re: phase chage material Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ JK>jeff are you trying to prevent the freezing of your crops? JK>if so how large an area is being discussed? JK>I have used 1 galplastic milk jugs filled with black water ( water with JK>cloth dye in it ) to act as row cover supports and to act JK>as a heat sink to moderate night time temperatures . Thsi JK>has allowed me to start corm and melons about 3 weeks JK>ahead of other people in CT I also use black plastic JK>sheeting to warm the soil befor planting. every bity of JK>heat ratained by the soil is going to help. JK>methane digesters latest issue of BACK HOME has a starting article on it JK>their address is PO BOX 370 Mountain Home, NC 28758 JK>see if there is anyone near u with back issues of TMEN JK>they ran articles on methane in the '70's Thanks Joel I use this trick to the same purpose as you do. My goal is to take plants that have a hard time flowering, because of the cool nights in our area, and try to provide the with a more comfortable enviroment. Are you on sustained agriculture echo. I would like to talk to you more about your experience. Namaste' j. X SLMR 2.0 X My reality check just bounced. --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Socialism OnLine! * +1(719)392-7781 * Venceremos! * (1:128/105) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 624 2-18-92 10:04pm Area: Home Power From: Lawrence London To: ALL Re: Burden's Surplus Center, Nebraska Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Article 2517 (7 more) in misc.rural: From: Robert Frederick Enenkel Subject: Re: Inverter is here Summary: Mail-order source Date: 18 Feb 92 18:18:59 GMT I just got a catalogue from Burden's Surplus Center in Nebraska. Some readers of this group might be interested. For example, they have a 20 kW diesel generator set for $4250, 1.5 kW gas generator for $425, 1 kW inverter for $500. Call 1-800-488-3407 for a catalogue. I just ordered a big centrifugal pump for my fish pools. Can't wait... Robert Enenkel --- * Origin: EARTH*Net*Home:SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ECHO*919-9293346 (1:151/502) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 625 2-18-92 10:06pm Area: Home Power From: Lawrence London To: ALL Re: Minnesota Windpower, Inc. Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Article 1245 (5 more) in alt.save.the.earth: From: Tom Gray Subject: Windmills - Energy source? Date: 16 Feb 92 21:45:00 GMT From: Tom Gray Subject: Windmills - Energy source? /* Written 6:45 pm Feb 15, 1992 by billweir in cdp:wind.energy */ /* ---------- "Questions (and Answers) About Wind" ---------- */ My favorite source of wind turbine info is Dan Juhl, President of Minnesota Windpower Inc., manufacturer, installer and maintainer of wind-electric- generating systems called "Windharvesters"(tm) producing 35 kilowatts from the single-phase turbine and 40 kilowatts from the multi-phase turbine. His systems are built to produce for at least 20 years, and none of his have ever come down, even in high winds. His partner, Lars Olsen, is making available some excellent technology developed in Denmark, so good that the Swedish electric utility wanting hundreds of systems to stand on platforms over water chose this technology, in part because it is so reliable: having achieved an outstanding record of availability, 99.2%, which means less than 1% down time! Right now, Dan Juhl is installing five turbines for a City Utility Service on a power-purchase contract for a million kilowatt-hours per year, using some of the bigger machines. Let me know if you are a qualified prospect to buy any of these systems -- or know someone who is -- and I'll pass the word along to Dan. - Bill Weir, (612) 751-0445, 6904 Ridgeview Dr, Mpls MN 55439-1431 --- * Origin: EARTH*Net*Home:SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ECHO*919-9293346 (1:151/502) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 630 2-15-92 12:03pm Area: Home Power From: Michael Favor To: Harvey Hazelett Re: Tesla Turbine? Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ HH> NOTE: This message was originally addressed to MICHAEL FAVOR HH> and was forwarded to you by DHUGAL MCARDY HH> -------------------- HH> Somebody is actually building a Tesla Turbine? ... HH> I've read about the turbine for years, have a few books, HH> even a Text file or two... But, no serious plans or HH> diagrams. Was wondering if these are availiable from some place, you probably have more information than i do already, since i only have one book, and no text files, but i will be happy to share what little i know. the first place to look for serious plans and diagrams would be in the patents of tesla himself. the patents expired long ago, and are now in public domain. one man who has made many important improvements to the original design, and gotten new patents based on them, is c.r.possell. he has an engineering and development company which builds turbines and pumps big and small for power companies, the u.s.military, and others. i had the opportunity to speak with him on the phone recently and learned two interesting things. the first one is that mr.possell's design is about 80% efficient, whereas mr.tesla's design is only about 20% efficient. the second thing is that mr.possell's company can design and build turbines for about one million dollars per megawatt, or roughly 1/4 of the prices of common bladed turbines of that size. mr.possell also said it would be possible to build a prototype of a much smaller turbin about the size i am interested in, around 10 kw, for about $15,000, and each additional copy would be about %20 of that cost, or possibly less depending on the number of copies made. i am expecting more information in the mail very soon, and will post it here as soon as i get it. the main consideration for my solar powered generator project is cost per watt, so it might work out to be cheaper for me to use a less efficient turbine if it is an order of magnitude cheaper, since my "fuel" costs will be expecially low. those were my main points, but i will continue loosely associating now, if you dont mind... the "secret life of machines" reported yesterday that a typical car engine is only 20% efficient, even after decades of refinement, the same as tesla's much less refined design, and of course the tesla turbine has only one moving part, which should increase reliablility. the book i got on the tesla turbine from lindsay's mentions that a turbine used in a formula race car was so superior that the racing commision outlawed its use as unfair. because turbines have 100% torque at zero rpm, the driver had to be warned not to accellerate to fast off the line or he could twist the drive shaft. apparently all other cars could be passed at any time. the other racing teams complained that they could not afford to redesign their engines, so the turbine was dis-allowed for racing. meanwhile, the public wonders why nobody is using this thing if it is so good. the linday's book also has pictures of a ski boat fitted with a tesla turbine which goes faster, turns tighter, and allows more room for seating where the big old fashioned engine used to be. unfortunately they don't give many details how to contact the designer/builder. one last bit, then in will quit rambling. in the same book there is a picture of a very futuristic looking prototype airplane which uses the tesla turbine in place of a jet engine. the turbine looks to be about the size of a 5-gallon watter bottle, and produces 600 lbs of thrust. the plane has almost no wings, and looks more like a sports-car, its only about 12 feet wide, at the widest, and about 20 feet long, seats four people, and here is the punchline: it is a vtol, vertical take-off and landing craft. looks like you could land it and take off from your driveway at home. it is built by All American Aircraft in Long Beach, and is called the Phalanx. if you want copies of the tesla patents, here are the numbers to ask for: fluid propulsion (pump), patent #1,061,142, (may 1913), turbine patent #1,061,206, and valvular conduit, patent #1,329,559 (feb 1920). one of the patents of mr.possell is: gas turbine power plant, pat# 3,279,170. those are the most complete designs i have been able to find so far. i would appreciate any other information you have, such as references to useful books, or pointers to where i can request those text files you mentioned, if they have any specific technical design info. warmly, michael. --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Humanity Net BBS (1:119/4) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 631 2-15-92 5:09pm Area: Home Power From: Michael Favor To: Don Kulha Re: Power Turbine Hacking Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ DK> We ought to collaborate some friend. Please net-mail your phone DK> number so we can chat sometime. my phone number is 916-894-2349. feel free to call at any civilized hour. i am usually home after 7pm on weekdays, and all day on rainy weekends. DK> I was thinking that we might split this project up some how. Maybe I DK> could build the turbine and you might build the collector or vice versa. hey, fantastic! so, you are finally starting to believe i am serious about this? :-) i would be delighted, even eager, to colaborate. if i built the collector and you built the turbine, i think i would be getting the better end of the deal, but either way would beat doing it all alone. however, i i am determined to complete this project in any case. maybe i am just a foolish dreamer, but i believe it is too important. globally, to ignore. DK> An aerodynamicist gave me some interesting ideas for the shape and DK> contour of the steam exhaust ports near the center of the disks ... DK> The concept was a little too complex to explain here but it made a DK> lot of sense when I heard it. We'll talk. i'm afraid those concepts are a little out of my league, but i'm happy to hear that you are comfortable with them. lately, i have been concentrating more on finding info about the turbine than working on the collector design, because i believed it would be the hardest part, but now you have given me renewed hope that i can find someone with more sophisticated engineering talents than mine to colaborate with, so i can get back the the more practical and less precise issues of the collector design. i would also like to offer a gentle reminder that i am expecting to put some required amount my own hard-earned money into this project, so i would be totally willing to pay a reasonable sum for a copy of a working prototype turbine, either in cash, or perhaps as part of a trade for a collector subsystem, when i get one working, if that is any incentive. best regards, michael. --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Humanity Net BBS (1:119/4) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 632 2-15-92 5:17pm Area: Home Power From: David Smith To: Michael Favor Re: TESLA'S CONTRIBUTIONS Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Hello - there was an article on making a Tesla turbine in an issure of Popular Mechanics, also write the magizine "Live steam" as I seem to recall they had done some work on them. Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.1 --- Dogfight 2.05 (Unregistered) * Origin: THE NULL POINTER (1:2606/532) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 633 2-16-92 1:09pm Area: Home Power From: Mark Whitaker To: Brent Wilde Re: tides Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I would love to know more, please send me whatever you've got. thanks, Mark --- GEcho/beta * Origin: Let's hook 'er up! <> Oh NO! (1:352/777) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 634 2-16-92 1:11pm Area: Home Power From: Mark Whitaker To: Steve Gresser Re: tides Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ i was wondering if some sort of high ratio gear reduction device might be used to capture tidal energy; like you said, it is slow, but very powerful.... --- GEcho/beta * Origin: Let's hook 'er up! <> Oh NO! (1:352/777) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 635 2-16-92 1:47pm Area: Home Power From: Harsha Godavari To: Jeff Burns Re: Phase Change Material Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ JB>The purpose for this is to keep the temperatures for warm loving plants >( tomatoes, peppers, eggplant ect.) in field tunnels over 60 deg. at >night when the outside temperature is in the 50's. Jeff: I came in just now into this echo and hence missed the earlier posts. Would you mind updating me on this? "field tunnels..." what are they. Bear with my ignorance. Inquiring minds want to know :-) JB> Namaste' <--- HUH ...? Regards Harsha Godavari. --- * Origin: Polar Bear Heaven - Net 348 *DM (204) 896-0459 (1:348/405) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 636 2-16-92 7:05pm Area: Home Power From: Gale Barrows To: Jim Henry Re: SOLAR Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I assume you are speaking of the solar heat collector mounted alongside a house that heats air and by one means or another passes the heated air into the house. I know of several that have been used, mostly with good results. The big problem is that the air ducts have to be closed during winter or the house will be cooled also. A problem with leaving them installed during the winter is tht they are inviting havens for everythiung from mice to skunks. I remember when a civet cat (similar to a skunk in odor) moved into my aunts collector ducts and then into the heater ducts. He never realy sprayed but thbe odor was there. She tryed several things to convince him to relocate but no luck. She finaly went around to the ducts and poured Draino crystals down them. Apparently he burned his feet in the chemicals and moved on. --- msged 1.99S ZTC * Origin: Custer's Last Point - Custer, S.Dak. (1:109/312.348) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 637 2-16-92 7:17pm Area: Home Power From: Gale Barrows To: Jim Love Re: Phase Change Material Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Calgary is 1296 miles northwest of me !!! Actualy, wyoming is to the west and partialy south while Iowa is east and partialy south. Manitoba/Sasketchewan is due north with one state (North Dakota, naturaly) in between. --- msged 1.99S ZTC * Origin: Custer's Last Point - Custer, S.Dak. (1:109/312.348) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 638 2-17-92 02:17am Area: Home Power From: Jim Love To: Tom Raab Re: Computers & Mirrors Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ >If I remember my Physic properly, the energy used to raise >the weight is the "Kinetic Energy". When you have the >weight raised, you have stored "Potential Energy". As the >weight is dropped, the Potential energy decreases and the >Kinetic energy increased. But due to friction, the Kinetic >Energy to raise the weight will never equal the energy >receive during the drop. Oh. I never was very good with physics. You could likely use this energy for short term large energy needs such as a log cutting circular saw. Driven by a pully system. Or a water irrigation system pump? You could store up the small amounts of wind energy during the day and over the night then release the energy of the weight to pump water around 5 oclock in the morning (to lessen evaporation). Would that work? Or I guess a simpler way would be to use that small amount of wind energy to pump water up to a holding tank then let gravity pump the water to the field. How about my mirror ideas. If you focused 50 one metre squared mirrors on a Bread box collector that had a water heater sized collector in it. How hot do you think it would get on an average day? I've often thought that it would be cheaper to build a smaller collector then use mirrors to focus the suns energy on it. It would require some a computer, electronics and some motors but I still think it could be done cheaply. I've wondered as well whether you could get enough heat to run a steam generator. ANOTHER QUESTION: I've seen natural gas powered generators advertised in magazines. Liquid Propane as well. Could the methane from one of those concrete methane collectors power a generator similar to this. ___ * SLMR 2.0 * Bring me a shrrubbberrrrriiiiiieeeee ! ! ! --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Connections BBS - Calgary, Alta. Canada - (403)246-2183 (1:134/32) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 639 2-18-92 02:23am Area: Home Power From: JOHN STEELE To: Michael Favor Re: Tesla Turbine? Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ re: automotive use of the turbine If you are interested in the use of the turbine in automobles, you should get a copy of Collectible Automoble, vol 3 issue 4, Dec 86. It tells the story of Chrysler spending 100 million of it's money, 19 million of the goverment's money trying to get a production turbine on the road, betwen the years 1954 and 1980. They came damn close. What ended up stopping them in 1980 was Chrysler almost going down the tubes at that point, and the Department of Energy's changing goals at around the same time. One real problem at the time was very hight oxides of nitrogen emmissions. While in theory, a turbine may have 'one moving part' by the time you turn it into an automotive engine, it's a lot more complcated. And the MPG of the turbine automobles built (Chrysler alone built over 60 test models over the years, Ford, GM, Rover, and other firms also built turbine cars and trucks for test purposes) never did surpass piston engine cars, though at the end, it came close. ---RyPacker v2.42 e * Origin: East Co Bear 215 755-1917 South Philly, USA [PGBA] (1:273/910) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 640 2-17-92 11:56pm Area: Home Power From: Steve Gresser To: Mark Whitaker Re: tides Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > i was wondering if some sort of high ratio gear reduction device might > be used to capture tidal energy; like you said, it is slow, but very > powerful.... Geez, I don't know - I think you'd be talking a technology leap to get that kind of efficiency out of some peice of machinery that's supposed to take energy from the tides. I mean, at best it would be low-output energy and our cities generally take high input. I think that working on more frequent, puncutated events like waves is more the way to go. Even that doesn't do much to offset present needs, and it's still in the developmental stages (from what I saw). Anybody else wanna jump in on this one? Steve --- * Origin: Remotron HQ BBS, Scottsdale, AZ (1:114/37) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 641 2-19-92 8:37pm Area: Home Power From: Dennis Garringer To: All Re: Alternate fluids Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Has anyone done any research into the use of say, amonia instead of water in a closed loop system. Use the lower boiling point to produce vapor to power some sort of piston or turbin engine. Then re-condense the amonia and use it over and over. Seems this in a solar collector would be more efficient. Just wondering out loud !! --- QuickBBS 2.66.r * Origin: Wildfire - Save the Earth... Conserve & Recycle . (1:119/911.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 642 2-18-92 5:22pm Area: Home Power From: Brent Wilde To: Mark Whitaker Re: WavePower Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Kvaerner Brugs Multiresonant Oscillatting Water Column (MOWC) Summing up -------------- The main message of this report is that wave power stations in the 500 kw range are being built.These will be on stream in autumn 1985. Power prices are expected to be competive particularrly in regions which depend on diesel generation but have wave energy available. One of the prototypes being built,is a so-called oscillating water column A water piston drivin by the incoming wave,pumps air back and forth-through a symmetrical turbine. 1 The harbour -------------- It has two protruding walls in front of the column's opening,which form a "harbour". This harbour forms a quarter-wave resonator and makes it possible to select dimensions so that this device has two resonance frequencies,one for the the column and one for the harbour. 2 Oscillation chamber --------------------- The oscillation chamber has a cross section at sea level of about 50 m^2.Vertical dimensions allow oscillations of a max +-3,5 Meters. The air turbine is placed 16 meters above sea level on a steel plate tower. A specially designed barrier is protecting the rotorary machinery against splashing water without disturbing the air flow.The air turbine is allways rotating the same direction regardless of air-flow.The turbine is designed to have a maximun instant capacity of 1000kw or a maximun averadge capacity over a wave peroid of 500kw. The inlet/outlet opening of the turbine is controlled by a hydraulically operated cylindrical gate through a flexible coupling the turbine is connected to an ac-generator with a capacity of 600 kva at 1500 rpm. O.Malmo's Phd-thesis A study of a multiresonant oscillating water column for wave power absorbtion.The norwegian Institute of Technology,Department of Physics, University of Trondheim,June 1984.. The Kvaerner's Multiresonant OWC (mowc) For further information please contact Kvaerner Brug A/S Wave Power Project P.O.Box 3610 Gamlebyen N-0135 OsLo 1 Phone: +472 66 66 66 Telex 71650 Kb n -------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- DLG Pro v0.985b/DLGMail 1.00k * Origin: TERRA-FIRMA-BBS VAN.BC (1:153/765) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 643 2-20-92 11:18am Area: Home Power From: Tim Campi To: All Re: Electricity Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Hi All, I was wondering if there are any options for powering my home (electric),due to the fact that this is the thrid month with over $200 power bills. I live on two acres and would be willing to use part for a alternate power source (ie solar,wind ect...).any suggestions would be greatly app. Thanks, Tim --- FX-BBS V3.3Ar * Origin: -> Oasis Software Library <- Manteca,Ca. (209)823-2803 (1:208/403) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 644 2-20-92 10:57pm Area: Home Power From: Dennis Garringer To: All Re: Workshops Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Just received a flyer from Solar Technology Institute P.O. Box 1115 Carbondale, Co. 81623-1115 303 963-0715 This is not an add, just passing on some info.......... Workshop schedule May 4-14 Solar Home Design May 18-21 Micro-hydro Electric Systems May 26-29 Wind Power June 1-4 Hydrogen Energy July 6-17 Photovoltaic Design & Instalation July 20-30 Advanced PV for remote homes Sept. 7-18 PV Design & Instalation Sept. 21-Oct. 1 Advanced Pv for remote homes Oct. 5-8 Micro-hydro Electric Systems Oct.12-22 Solar Home Design Principals Oct.26-Nov.5 Advanced Passive Solar Design Tuition Starts at $350 for 1 week to $3150 for 12 weeks Wish I could go....But, maybe this will help someone who can! Bye!! --- QuickBBS 2.66.r * Origin: Wildfire - Save the Earth... Conserve & Recycle . (1:119/911.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 645 2-19-92 6:21pm Area: Home Power From: Michael Favor To: David Smith Re: TESLA'S CONTRIBUTIONS Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ DS> Hello - there was an article on making a Tesla turbine DS> in an issure of Popular Mechanics, also write the DS> magizine "Live steam" as I seem to recall they had DS> done some work on them. thanks, i have a 1965 reference to a popular mechanics article, and amazingly enough the local county library still had the issue on hand, but when i checked it out i found the article is very short, and the model turbine that it explains how to build would be better suited to demonstrating the general principles involved rather than doing any real useful work. it seems to be more of a toy than a tool. i believe the live steam article was in 1985, but was unavailable at the local library. if you have access to the issue of live steam, i would gladly pay for copying and postage if you could send me a copy of the article. my p.o.box: 4096, chico, ca 95927. i promise to put the information to good use. regards, michael. --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Humanity Net BBS (1:119/4) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 658 2-21-92 11:44am Area: Home Power From: Bob Campbell To: Tim Campi Re: Electricity Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Hi All, > I was wondering if there are any options for powering my home > (electric),due to the fact that this is the thrid month with over $200 > power bills. I live on two acres and would be > willing to use part for a alternate power source (ie solar,wind > ect...).any suggestions would be greatly app. You can produce your own power but you would either have to have one heck of a large alternative power source or more likely have to cut way back on your consumption. If you did the later would you still need to invest in an alternative power source? Sorry I don't want to discourage you but unless you have a decent size water fall on your property you would be hard pressed to cover your $200/month bill. The key to alternative power generally has has start with conservation. Water if it's available is the cheapest method. Wind is generally not constant enough to be a viable source for most of us. Photo voltaic systems are expensive and steam powered turbines is under discussion in this echo. The later two choices are likely alternatives for most people. Photo voltaic panels can be purchased from Real Goods 1-707-468-9214 for about $5.25 per watt, but don't expect to take your house off the grid and live the same life style that you do now for much less than $200,000.00. Hmmm... that's only 83 years worth of electric bills. ;-) --- OPMED 3.00 * Origin: Flashpoint, Dive Safely - First Time, Feet First . (1:119/911.1) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 659 2-20-92 7:46pm Area: Home Power From: Tom Schneder To: Michael Favor Re: TESLA'S CONTRIBUTIONS Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Sorry .. I cannot help you at this time.. My sister had the friend about 10 years ago and it was the friend that was in the steam club.. But I will try to find out for you this weekend and get back to you next week... Tom schneder --- TBBS v2.1/NM * Origin: The Coffee Club BBS: 301-353-9315, Germantown, MD (1:109/426) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 660 2-20-92 8:06pm Area: Home Power From: Tom Schneder To: Don Kulha Re: TESLA'S CONTRIBUTIONS Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Regards the oxidation of the saw blades (or any iron or steel) consider this..It has been the pratice of all condensing turbins OR condensing piston steam plants to exclude Oxygen from the systems primarly for the protection of the boilers.. ...Those pipes are expenseve to replace and if it blows even more expensive.. As you start to boil the water and steam begins to happen the first thing ad low pressure to come out of the water is the oxygen then the steam if you release the first steam you will have very little free O-2 left to cause oxidation.. Also a water trap will do niely... Like on your car radiator with the surge tank that you put water into.. In a Babcock & Wilcox steam book I have they discusse this and show the inside of boiler pipes 5 years old still shinie] like new.. With proper water care..ie oxyigen ..disolved particals.. and ph.. Tha only rust will occure while the machine is stopped and exposed to the elements.. Not while running under steam.. /the steam will drive off the O-2 like CO-2 replaces O-2 in an enclosed space (O-2 is atmospheric oxyagen) it will also replace the nitrigen also.... Rust is not the problem unless the thing sits in the rain... Tom Schneder --- TBBS v2.1/NM * Origin: The Coffee Club BBS: 301-353-9315, Germantown, MD (1:109/426) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 661 2-21-92 12:14am Area: Home Power From: Jim Henry To: Gale Barrows Re: SOLAR Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Thanks Gale but I think you are thinking of a larger collector, the one they claim puts out 19000 BTU-hr and is about 96 sq.ft. The one I was referring to just mounts in a window and is somewhat smaller and is called the Heat Grabber. The other one sounds interesting though...you say it fed intothe homes ductwork? I still don't understand how wildlife got into it though... Jim /S ---RyPacker v2.42 e * Origin: East Co Bear 215 755-1917 South Philly, USA [PGBA] (1:273/910) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 662 2-19-92 02:19am Area: Home Power From: Jim Love To: Gale Barrows Re: Location and energy need Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ >Calgary is 1296 miles northwest of me !!! Actualy, wyoming >is to the west and partialy south while Iowa is east and >partialy south. Manitoba/Sasketchewan is due north with >one state (North Dakota, naturaly) in between. >--- msged 1.99S ZTC > * Origin: Custer's Last Point - Custer, S.Dak. Hmmm. Your pretty far south :). Talking solar. What time did the sun rise down there today (feb. 19). It was about 7:45 MST today. Almost sun-up when I bike to work. Short days in the winter. I'm still pretty far south so its not that bad. Calgary likely has warmer winters than South Dakota due to the high number of Chinooks that blow through here. It's been around 10C (50F?) for most of the winter. Cold today -20C with 20km winds. ___ * SLMR 2.0 * Bring me a shrrubbberrrrriiiiiieeeee ! ! ! --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Connections BBS - Calgary, Alta. Canada - (403)246-2183 (1:134/32) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 663 2-22-92 02:22am Area: Home Power From: Tom Keller To: Dennis Garringer Re: Alternate fluids Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ | Has anyone done any research into the use of say, amonia | instead of water in a closed loop system. Use the lower | boiling point to produce vapor to power some sort of | piston or turbin engine. Then re-condense the amonia and | use it over and over. Seems this in a solar collector | would be more efficient. | Well, ammonia is fairly corrosive, and is highly toxic. Ammonia used to be used in refrigeration systems, prior to the discovery of CFCs. * JABBER v1.1 #T014 * Life is like a muon...very short and unstable. --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 664 2-22-92 02:22am Area: Home Power From: Tom Keller To: John Steele Re: Tesla Turbine? Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ | re: automotive use of the turbine | | If you are interested in the use of the turbine in | automobles, you should get a copy of Collectible | Automoble, vol 3 issue 4, Dec 86. It tells the story of | Chrysler spending 100 million of it's money, 19 million of | the goverment's money trying to get a production turbine | on the road, betwen the years 1954 and 1980. They came The turbines we are discussing here are Tesla laminar-flow bladeless steam driven turbines, not gas-fired turbines. * JABBER v1.1 #T014 * Economic Recovery ala Reagan/Bush: The rich get richer. --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Sonoma Online (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 665 2-22-92 02:22am Area: Home Power From: Timothy Hutzler To: Dennis Garringer Re: Alternate fluids Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ DG>Has anyone done any research into the use of say, amonia DG>instead of water in a closed loop system. Use the lower DG>boiling point to produce vapor to power some sort of DG>piston or turbin engine. Two probelms for engineers, closed loop systems require more hardware. For stationary equipment only cost would be a consideration. A mobile powerplant would be a challenge. Second, the heat of vaporization for amonia is low, but so is the condensation point. Large(r) condencers make such commercial designs impractical. ___ X KingQWK 1.00 X T+E ANswEg To +ifE, T+E uN!vEgsE, ANd evEgyT+!Ng --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Humanity Net BBS (1:119/4) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 666 2-22-92 02:22am Area: Home Power From: Timothy Hutzler To: Tim Campi Re: Electricity Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ TC>I was wondering if there are any options for powering my home.... Hi Tim: I also considered this as I, too, have some acreage. I am not familiar with your situation, so I will share my thoughts and evaluations for mine. I live in Chico, CA. Here is my assessment: Solar resources are very good here with >320 days a year. My house, under construction, will extensivly utililize both passive and some active methods (high ceilings,orientation,etc.) My expectations are that it will reduce both heating and cooling costs substantially over that of conventional structures. Wind is not practical here, but waterpower is available along the south property line. There is little elevation drop, but there are turbins which perform well in streams. The commercially available model costs about $500. A licence from (yes big-brother wants its cut) the California Dept of water resources is required and the paperwork is frustrating. This option would only be practical if I kept it on the TQ, if you know what I mean. Other than these, the more exotic methods such as biomass conversion and cogeneration are practical if you can produce the raw materials, such as on a farm. ___ X KingQWK 1.00 X T+E ANswEg To +ifE, T+E uN!vEgsE, ANd evEgyT+!Ng --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Humanity Net BBS (1:119/4) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 667 2-22-92 11:16pm Area: Home Power From: Mark Whitaker To: Steve Gresser Re: tides Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I wasn't really thinking of it on large scale terms so much as homestead sized applications...There it wouldn't matter so much or require the size and numbers of generators that would make it prohibitive. (Maybe (grin))... --- GEcho/beta * Origin: Let's hook 'er up! <> Oh NO! (1:352/777) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 668 2-23-92 8:19pm Area: Home Power From: Tom Schneder To: Dennis Garringer Re: ALTERNATE FLUIDS Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Amonia probboly too deadly and cerosive... One leak and you could be dead... --- TBBS v2.1/NM * Origin: The Coffee Club BBS: 301-353-9315, Germantown, MD (1:109/426) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 669 2-24-92 10:57am Area: Home Power From: Steve Gresser To: Mark Whitaker Re: tides Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > I wasn't really thinking of it on large scale terms so much as homestead > sized applications...There it wouldn't matter so much or require the > size and numbers of generators that would make it prohibitive. (Maybe > (grin))... Hmmph. I dunno. There again, if it'd take 1,000 miles of beach to light 1,000 homes (where am I getting these numbers?) it'd still take a full mile of beach to light one home. Unless my understanding of the physics is fundamentally wrong, something that is prohibitive for home power on a large scale would be equally inefficient on a small scale. Or not. Steve --- * Origin: Remotron HQ BBS, Scottsdale, AZ (1:114/37) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 672 2-25-92 5:01pm Area: Home Power From: Harvey Hazelett To: Michael Favor Re: Tesla Turbine? Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Mike, thanks for the info, as I was really curious about modern applications. Don (the moderator) had much to say on the topic also. I was surprised to see my message quoted, as I had posted it a while back... I have the Complete Patents book, which includes all of the turbine stuff, and much, much more... I am interested in some more modern books though, as it does seem to be superior to internal combustion, much easier to service at the least... Will look into the sources you mentioned... --- T.A.G. 2.6 Standard * Origin: The Program Exchange (1:3633/133@FIDONET.ORG) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 674 2-26-92 4:40pm Area: Home Power From: Dan Briggs To: All Re: New to this Echo Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ HI GUYS! I am new to this echo and am a big fan of off-line power. I read one msg (can't quote it, my off-line mail reader won't let me reply untill some one post to me first! Can't quite figure that one) about bio-mass conversion and another maethod of power production. Can some one fill me in? We're about to buy a house in rural south Texas and I am very interested in providing as much power off the grid as possible and still stay within the bounds of economic reality. Thanks for the time, --Dan --- T.A.G. 2.6 Standard * Origin: The Program Exchange (1:3633/133@FIDONET.ORG) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 676 2-25-92 3:27pm Area: Home Power From: Tom Rieger To: Tom Schneder Re: alternate fluids Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ -> Amonia probboly too deadly and cerosive... -> One leak and you could be dead... It would have to be a large leak to kill you. I've been in clouds of the stuff. It irritates the hell out of the throat/sinuses etc.. but the stink is one of it's good points. It's self-alarming. You know when you have an ammonia leak, not so with some other things that can kill you. Also, contrary to popular belief, NH3 becomes explosive at 16% concentration in air. TR --- InterPCB 1.50 * Origin: Latent Heat - Rochester, NY - (1:260/242@fidonet.org) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 677 2-26-92 02:28am Area: Home Power From: Tom Rieger To: Tom Keller Re: Alternate fluids Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ -> Well, ammonia is fairly corrosive, and is highly toxic. Ammonia used -> to be used in refrigeration systems, prior to the discovery of CFCs. Less toxic than freon. Ammonia is still in use as a refrigerant in many commercial processes. And, considering that CFC's are soon to be outlawed, I bet it will be even more widely used in the future. TR (operator of a 35,000 ton NH3 refrigeration plant) --- InterPCB 1.50 * Origin: Latent Heat - Rochester, NY - (1:260/242@fidonet.org) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 678 2-25-92 8:54pm Area: Home Power From: Tom Schneder To: Don Kulha Re: TESLA'S CONTRIBUTIONS Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Are we talking about the effichency of the turbin or the boiler?? or the combined efichency??? Tom schneder --- TBBS v2.1/NM * Origin: The Coffee Club BBS: 301-353-9315, Germantown, MD (1:109/426) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 679 2-25-92 9:03pm Area: Home Power From: Tom Schneder To: Michael Favor Re: TESLA'S CONTRIBUTIONS Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Here is the name and address of the person who has built two Tesla turbins..He currently has one rattling around in the back of his pickup... Bill Seipl 3180 Exacta La. Apt 303 Raleigh NC 27613 Hope this helps.. I just got off the phone with him.. He will corespond with anyone intrested in steam... Tom schneder --- TBBS v2.1/NM * Origin: The Coffee Club BBS: 301-353-9315, Germantown, MD (1:109/426) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 680 2-25-92 9:19pm Area: Home Power From: Tom Schneder To: Don Kulha Re: TESLA'S CONTRIBUTIONS Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ My info indicates that it is the boundry layer drag of the swerling steam that causes the disk to rotate.. Rember that current axial frow turbins are running 70% to 95% efficent in converting steam to motive force..You will not beat them at that game.. where you can beat them is size and simplicty.... When was the last time you heard of someone building an axial flow turbin in a small machine shop ?.. and one that you could carry around without a forklift... The real killer is the boiler... Small boilers are 30% to 50% efficent with wood at the low end then coal then oil.. They all reqire "excess air" to prevent nasty things on the fire side of the boiler.. But properly built they will burn just obout anything.. To get the efficency up you need to preheat feedwater and air for combustion .. And run a condensing system.. This all ads complexity .. mainly on the boiler side.. The turbin is easy.. the boiler is hard to get right....and efficent... Yours Tom Schneder --- TBBS v2.1/NM * Origin: The Coffee Club BBS: 301-353-9315, Germantown, MD (1:109/426) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 681 2-23-92 02:23am Area: Home Power From: Jim Love To: Tim Campi Re: Electricity Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ TC> I was wondering if there are any options for powering my home TC>(electric),due to the fact that this is the thrid month with over $200 power TC>bills. I live on two acres and would be willing to use part for a alternate TC>power source (ie solar,wind ect...).any suggestions would be greatly app. Ditto to conservation. I would suggest starting with the light bulbs. You can purchase low wattage bulbs for about $15.00 a piece. They give off the same amount of light for a lot less power. If you decide to buy them over a couple months put then intial bulbs in your high use rooms. ie kitchen. By the Way, what are you using a lot of this power for. Cooking can use a lot. You might want to consider getting an Dutch Oven electric fry pan. (Fry pan with high sides). I find it quite versatile and it is quite effcient for cooking. It's a little thing but they add up. Enough little ideas. If you might want to consider getting a natural gas powered generator. Or a liquid propane gas generator. Check it out, do the calculations on how much gas it would transfer your electrical needs to a generator. No one ever replied to my question on whether one of those methane generating pits could power a generator? ___ * SLMR 2.0 * Bring me a shrrubbberrrrriiiiiieeeee ! ! ! --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Connections BBS - Calgary, Alta. Canada - (403)246-2183 (1:134/32) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 682 2-27-92 11:39am Area: Home Power From: Tim Campi To: Jim Love Re: Electricity Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Hi Jim, Our electricity use is not much different then everyone else's, Refirge, BBS, Fish tanks (2 a 35 gal and a 20 gal) these are the constant power drains I have. Then the regular stuff TV radios and lights (The wifes always chasing us down to keep the lights off). Our usage is the same as last year but our bills are tripled. Well one more thing I have been brewing for about tree months now and that runs the stove pretty hard, I thinking of getting a stove that runs on propane for brewing ( that'll help alittle). Well Talk to you later, Tim --- FX-BBS V3.3Ar * Origin: -> Oasis Software Library <- Manteca,Ca. (209)823-2803 (1:208/403) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 701 3-03-92 4:25pm Area: Home Power From: Harvey Hazelett To: All Re: Wind power? Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I'd like to play around with a small windmill, to drive say a DC motor as a generator, or perhaps an old alternator out of my Chevette (built in regulator)... Basically, I'd like to use it to charge a small bank of lead/acid (car batteries), for which I can run some flourescent lighting in my shop, and perhaps the rest of the house. Maybe ad an inverter later on to charge some cordless power tools. Basically, I am pretty good at the electronics aspects, but the mechanics of it is a little outside my realm, but I do struggle through such things as I have a need to do so... Basically, I am looking for some sources on the topic, or some hints on what would be the best approach, and things I need to consider before getting too involved. The huricane season isn't far off, so definately need some way to regulate the speed of the windmill, and some way of protecting it against high winds. Also would like some input on which would serve me better, a horizontal scheme or vertical. Not looking to build anything massive, to start with, just something for the backyard or roof, which I can expand on later if it works out reasonably well. The wind here is neither constant or strong, but its unusually for there to be long periods without a breeze... --- T.A.G. 2.6 Standard * Origin: The Program Exchange (1:3633/133@FIDONET.ORG) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 716 3-06-92 08:15am Area: Home Power From: Harvey Hazelett To: Jerry Graves Re: How's it going over there? Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Jerry, any new assingnments yet? Nothing so far here, but they keep asking me if I'm availiable evenings. Should have told her, 'Baby, I'm availiable anytime...' Wonder if they have any office jobs there, seems like somebody different answers each day, oh well... --- T.A.G. 2.6 Standard * Origin: The Program Exchange (1:3633/133@FIDONET.ORG) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 731 3-10-92 11:07pm Area: Home Power From: Lawrence London To: ALL Re: Air conditioning w/o CFC's. Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Has anyone heard about this new type of air conditioner? -------------------------------------------------------- Article 1297 (15 more) in alt.save.the.earth: From: Campbell, Scott Edward Subject: Global warming and the ozone Date: 5 Mar 92 18:11:33 GMT Organization: Arizona State University [text deleted] On a more serious note, for those of you who want to stop using CFC's before they're banned but don't want to give up your AC there is hope in sight. Dr. James Beckman of Arizona State has invented a new air conditioner that has no moving parts and uses no CFC's. It works with a liquid dessicant and not only provides the same cooling as the standard Rankine units in use today at lower utility costs it purifies the air too! This is not too good to be true...units will be on the market in '93. Toodles for now, Scottman the Maniac Bronco Fan --- * Origin: EARTH*Net*Home:SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ECHO*919-9323115 (1:151/502) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 732 3-10-92 11:09pm Area: Home Power From: Lawrence London To: ALL Re: Windpower Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Article 1292 (20 more) in alt.save.the.earth: Subject: Re: Windmills - Energy source? Date: 4 Mar 92 02:17:49 GMT Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center From: Ilana Stempel Hi, I recently did a term paper on wind power and the things I learned were extraordinary. Forgive me if this seems garbled, but I'm new to this network. Anyway, a recent contract between U.S. Windpower, Inc. of Livermore, California and the Iowa-Illinois Gas & Electric Co. will build a windfarm in the midwest. The plan to use the new 33M-VS prototype which has a variable speed motor. Therefore the turbine will not lose the energy that can be received from lower or higher speed winds than the old models could use. These new turbines will be able to compete economically with conventional energy sources such as oil, coal and natural gas. These new turbines will be able to produce viable energy at about five cents per kilowatt-hour. This includes capital costs and hidden costs such as environmental destruction and others. With this, it outranks nuclear and hydropower. Solar is still too expensive, biomass and geothermal are not necessarily renewable. Wind power is clean and surprisingly cheap. For more information about the wind farms in the midwest, see the article in the New York Times from November 14, 1991. You can also just give me a buzz, and I'll see what I can do for you. --- * Origin: EARTH*Net*Home:SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ECHO*919-9323115 (1:151/502) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 811 4-04-92 01:06am Area: Home Power From: Danny Burdick To: Don Kulha Re: Feed....? Attr: Local ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Hey Don.... Been a long time since I have gotten any feed from you...wondering if still on the backbone...or maybe my 0200 to 0300 night tape backup routine got in your way....thats 0200 EST or 2300 your time.....if so let me know... A system called "Energy" absolutely must have input from you guys out there to really live up to it's name..... Danny Burdick "Energy" --- * Origin: Energy * Where people discuss it before it runs out! (1:374/17) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 815 4-04-92 09:28am Area: Home Power From: From: JIM HENRY To: To: ROBERT MARSH Re: Subj: fluorescent lights/110v Conf: (1) Alternativ Attr: Local ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- RM>Hi everyone, I recently discovered that Sam's Clubs cary RM>LOA 22w fluorescent RM>lights with the electronic ballast, 2 for $9.95 !! This RM>sure beats what I hav RM> been paying. Robert That`s half what I`ve sen them for! What kind of outfit is Sam`s clubs? Don`t know of any around here. ---RyPacker v2.42 e * Origin: East Co Bear 215 755-1917 South Philly, USA [PGBA] (1:273/910) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 817 4-04-92 1:18pm Area: Home Power From: Date: 03-15-92 (22:22) To: From: TOM BROWN Re: To: ALL Recvd: NO Attr: Local ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Subj: Electric Vehicles Conf: (1) Alternativ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have read several articles in Popular Science and on this echo. Maybe I am under some delusion, but several of the proposed electric vehicles are claiming a very rapid recharge time ( apx. 1 hour from dead to complete recharge.) My limited experience with rechargable batteries is that there is some heat given off. How would you safely dissipate the presumed tremendous amount of heat in such a rapid charge ? Also, several of the cordless phones on the market use rechargable batteries and they have to be shorted out or completely discharged before attempting to recharge. How could one safely discharge a battery or series of batteries sizeable enough to power an electric vehicle ? --- Opus-CBCS 1.14 * Origin: South Parking Lot (614) 351-2274 (1:226/330.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 818 4-04-92 1:18pm Area: Home Power From: From: WILLIAM WICKER To: To: ALL Re: Subj: Solar Electricity Conf: (1) Alternativ Attr: Local ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have several questions relating to the use of solar energy: 1) Can anyone give me a clue as to how much photo-voltaic arrays are selling for nowadays? (All my books are old, and quote prices like $20 per watt) Also, source information would be appreciated. 2) Its easy to find books talking about solar heating, but down here in Texas, that's not a problem. Cooling is the *big* power drain. Can anyone steer me towards information on solar powered cooling systems? Thanks. - William --- Msged/sq * Origin: Wicker's Point (1:130/34.2625) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 819 4-04-92 1:18pm Area: Home Power From: From: DEAN BUNGART To: To: WILLIAM WICKER Re: Subj: Solar Electricity Conf: (1) Alternativ Attr: Local ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi William...I recommend Joel Davidson's latest book The New Solar Electric Home. Or Jeffery Fowler's book The Solar Electric Home. Both fairly up to date. Comcerning current prices/dealers....If you want information and occasionally reasonable prices...Check out Real Goods 1-800-762-7325 I think if you are considering a great buy in PV...look at the discontinued/used panels out on the market. Often under $5 a watt. Solar cooling?...I just recently saw an article on using dessicants with a swamp cooler for cooling in a more humid climate. Obviously...swamp coolers are the way to go if your humidity doesn't get over 60% or so. I think that solar airconditioning with refrigerants is still very costly in terms of btu's/investment in pv's. Hope this helps..DB ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 820 4-04-92 1:19pm Area: Home Power From: From: MICHAEL FAVOR To: To: WILLIAM WICKER Re: Subj: Solar Electricity Conf: (1) Alternativ Attr: Local ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- WW> 1) Can anyone give me a clue as to how much photo- WW> voltaic arrays are selling for nowadays? last time i looked they were about five or six dollars per watt. but you might be able to find them some cheaper as surplus, or in other creative ways, but that's about the lower limit, commercially. btw: for about the last twenty years the price has been continuously predicted to drop far and fast and soon, but the older predictions have not yet come to pass. maybe we will have better luck with the newer predictions ;-) michael. --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Humanity Net BBS (1:119/4) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 821 4-04-92 1:19pm Area: Home Power From: From: ROBERT MARSH To: To: WILLIAM WICKER Re: Subj: Solar Electricity Conf: (1) Alternativ Attr: Local ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi William, I got intersted in a backup system about a year ago, after 3 day's of on power, for a good source of what's available call Real Goods, not always the best prices,but lots of info... 1-800-762-7325, I have seen several supplyers offering Hoxan 50 watt panels for $295.00. Hope this gets you started , I am a beginer, but feel free to ask questions... what about wind where you are? There are some new , cheap, low mantience wind chargers out in any voltage you want......also Home power magazine I have found to be loaded with lots of helpful info....and cheap. Robert --- GEcho/beta * Origin: Telen-Quest, Simply D'Best! % 1.2Gig Multiline Strong (1:284/4) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 822 4-04-92 1:19pm Area: Home Power From: From: ALLAN BALLIETT To: To: DEAN BUNGART Re: Subj: Solar Electricity Conf: (1) Alternativ Attr: Local ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- DB>I just recently saw an article on using dessicants with a swamp cooler for DB> cooling in a more humid climate Dean - I'm curious, did this article concern using dessicants to reduce humidity inside in humid climates? Do you have any idea where you saw the article :-) Has anyone else any experience of using dessicants to lower household humidity? Thanks --- MacWoof Eval:22Jan92 * Origin: We're all food for the moon (1:109/70.914) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 823 4-04-92 1:19pm Area: Home Power From: From: DEAN BUNGART To: To: ALLAN BALLIETT Re: Subj: Solar Electricity Conf: (1) Alternativ Attr: Local ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I seem to recall that this unit dehumidified the air first, then processed the drier air like a traditional swamp cooler. Can't say for certain...but it was in Popular Science last year.... Hope this helps.^z ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 824 4-04-92 1:19pm Area: Home Power From: From: TIM HUTZLER To: To: EVAN PIEPER Re: Subj: Ditch power Conf: (1) Alternativ Attr: Local ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Evan from Chico, Ca; I, too, have an irigation ditch (though it is called a slough) on my property. Actually, where it crosses my property it is a regular stream at which canal water is dumped in (rediverted) a couple hundred feet upstream. Likewise, I am not allowed to divert or dam the waterflow. I have done pliminary calcs, and I find it feasible. However, I do not know whether I have a legal right to operate a small hydroelectric operation. I believe I do, and the Calif Dept of Water Resources wants $100 to cover their burocracy. But, my 'ditch' may differ from yours to a degree that it may not be feasible for you. In my case the flow is 10CFS or better and flows rather swiftly in a narrow stream bed having a .36% grade. If you think about it, there are only two ways to transfer energy from water flow: Momentum, causing water to slow down transfers energy; and gravity, in our cases slowing waterflow will result in an elevation differential. The two, of course, are interdependant. Here is where we have differences in the parameters. A screw would get its energy from slowing the swift waterflow as-well-as from the head developed by the backlog. A 30-inch head on 10CFS yields about four horsepower of potential energy including the inertia factor. A system efficiency of 33% would yield about one kilowatt. Irrigation ditches, however, are slow moving to save elevation loss, ie. energy. Unless waterflow is better than five feet per second, you will have to derive your energy from mostly gravity. And, because canals have little elevation loss, you can not develop much differential without backing the water very far. A one inch head is the most you could expect. Thus, a flow of about 1000CFS is required at 20% efficiency to yield about 2 horsepower. You may think 20% effiecieny is rather low. But, in context of our discussion - most of the potential energy will flow around the turbin or wheel. And, this is good. You want something as unobstructive as possible so as not to `make waves' with users downrange, or the governing powers that be. Unfortunatly, 1000CFS is quite a large flow more comparable to the California aquaduct than an irrigation ditch. You might also consider that your irrigation ditch gets its water from a pump or well source. That being the case, the canal district probably could make a case against you with the argument that you are stealing some of the energy invested to get the water to its destination. Something to consider. ___ X KingQWK 1.00 X T+E ANswEg To +ifE, T+E uN!vEgsE, ANd evEgyT+!Ng --- Maximus 2.00 * Origin: Humanity Net BBS (1:119/4) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 825 4-04-92 1:19pm Area: Home Power From: From: PATRICK MCGINN To: To: ALL Re: Subj: Home power surprise Conf: (1) Alternativ Attr: Local ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am in the LA area and decide to look into BBS's in this area...I am in the Santa Monica, Venice BEACH dialing area. And here on ONEWORLD is HOMEPOWER. "HI TO RICHARD AND KAREN....at HOMEPOWER Magazine....if you ever look in here.. And HI to th fellow ?? "Don" from Sonoma online who who put the good article in homepower magazine". PKM of Lamy, NM. User of PV power for 10 years. Hope this Echo comes into NM... I will request it. --- * Origin: oNE woRLD Los Angeles 310/3720987 (1:102/129) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 826 4-04-92 1:19pm Area: Home Power From: From: JIM HENRY To: To: PATRICK MCGINN Re: Subj: Home power surprise Conf: (1) Alternativ Attr: Local ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick, what is HomePower magazine? Is the topic the same as in this echo? ---RyPacker v2.42 e * Origin: AIRPOWER,National Airgun Info Exchange 215-259-2198 (1:273/408) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 856 4-08-92 2:39pm Area: Home Power From: From: Lawrence London To: To: Danny Burdick Re: Feed....? Attr: Local ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Attr: Rcvd ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Hey Don.... Been a long time since I have gotten any > feed from you...wondering if still on the backbone...or > maybe my 0200 to 0300 night tape backup routine got in your > way....thats 0200 EST or 2300 your time.....if so let me > know... A system called "Energy" absolutely must have input > from you guys out there to really live up to it's name..... > Danny Burdick > "Energy" I haven't seen anything in HOMEPOWR for months either. I left a post for his wife in the Home and Garden echo inquiring about this. It looks like the same situation we had here less than a year ago with no traffic from Don's system. Well, I for one am sufficiently interested in this subject to keep traffic flowing here even if distribution is limited to whatever systems _we_ (how many???) are connected to (seems to be the East Coast at least, and certainly Region 18, thanks to its REC, Amnon Nissan :-)) So let's have at it and keep the information flowing! I assume that HP is primarily concerned with alternative means of generating electricity. I am also interested in all aspects of passive solar technology, space heating, DHW, cooling, lighting, etc. The architechtural, construction and materials aspects of this greatly interests me as well. Needless to say photovoltaic technology fits well into this scenario, when affordable. Architecturally speaking, it would seem wise to plan one's home or building to accomodate efficient solar heating/cooling devices, whether they be active or passive, and integrate photovoltaic devices into the design for later retrofit when economically possible. Attached greenhouses for air cleaning, oxygen generation and food/ornamental production would seem to be an essential element in the overall house design. --- * Origin: EARTH*Net*Home:SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ECHO*919-9323115 (1:151/502) SEEN-BY: 151/100 502 506 1000 1003 363/320 369/35 374/1 12 17 SEEN-BY: 3641/1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 868 4-09-92 10:20pm Area: Home Power From: Danny Burdick To: All Re: Homepwr Echo Feeds... Attr: Local ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I have been carrying Homepwr echo since it started ...way before it was on the backbone..and was one of the original instigators..of getting it on the backbone...I had not recieved a feed for over a month so I called Don Kulha's board direct...and found no files of any kind pertaining to Home Power Magazine...and a sad greeting about how he took a good one right in the old hard drive....so I reconnected my direct line to him...and still haven't recieved any mail...that was a week ago....I did get a direct dial call from him...late at night ...and he downloaded from my board every one of the old volumes 1 thru 5 of Home Power Magazine...as if he was piecing back together his system..so it will probably be a little bit longer...but we should be back on track soon... Dan Burdick "Energy" --- * Origin: Energy * Where people discuss it before it runs out! (1:374/17) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 903 4-11-92 10:15pm Area: Home Power From: Lawrence London To: Danny Burdick Re: Homepwr Echo Feeds... Attr: Rcvd ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > mail...that was a week ago....I did get a direct dial call > from him...late at night ...and he downloaded from my board > every one of the old volumes 1 thru 5 of Home Power > Magazine...as if he was piecing back together his system..so > it will probably be a little bit longer...but we should be > back on track soon... > Dan Burdick > "Energy" > --- GEcho/beta > * Origin: Energy * Where people discuss it before it runs > out! (1:374/17) Thanks for the update. I am looking forward to the restoration of traffic here. If you, Don or anyone else needs them I have archived hundreds of back messages in HP over the past year or more, in fact I have all the messages in HP that I have recieved here. --- * Origin: EARTH*Net*Home:SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ECHO*919-9323115 (1:151/502) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 919 4-12-92 07:45am Area: Home Power From: Lawrence London To: ALL Re: solar electricity Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ * Forwarded from "Ecology" * Originally by Nigel Allen * Originally to All * Originally dated 10 Apr 1992, 20:25 from Solar Electric Light Fund Solar Electricity Lights Up Third World To: National and Foreign desks, Environment Writer Contact: Neville Williams, 202-234-7265, for the Solar Electric Light Fund WASHINGTON, April 9 /U.S. Newswire/ -- In hundreds of rural communities around the world solar photovoltaics today provide electricity to thousands of families living beyond the reach of the electrical grid, powering household lighting systems, 12 volt b&w televisions, and radios. Seventy percent to 85 percent of the population of the developing world still lives without electricity. Rural people don't want to remain in the dark any longer. "How these nearly 2 billion people get electricity will be one of the critical issues of the 21st century," said Neville Williams, president of the Washington, D.C.-based Solar Electric Light Fund (SELF), founded in 1990 to foster solar rural electrification in the Third World. "Governments everywhere are realizing they must provide access to at least minimal electricity for their majority rural populations." SELF, which stands for energy SELF-sufficiency, recently designed a $7 million household solar electrification program in Zimbabwe for the Global Environment Facility, sponsored by the United Nations and the World Bank. In Sri Lanka, SELF has launched a $200,000 pilot project of solar rural electrification, introducing solar electricity to 101 rural villages (with assistance from the W. Alton Jones Foundation and The Moriah Fund). SELF organizes revolving credit schemes allowing farmers in developing countries to purchase home lighting systems for $300 to $500 from local solar associations or commercial dealers. "This is what the Earth Summit in Rio is all about, how countries can develop in environmentally safe ways," said Williams. "National development isn't possible without rural electrification. But only solar-based rural electrification is sustainable, affordable and appropriate for the majority of the unelectrified people in the Third World. And it doesn't contribute to global warming." The poorer nations wish to develop without polluting and they will be asking the industrialized countries at Rio (UNCED) in June to assist them in acquiring and disseminating new, innovative and clean technologies, such as solar photovoltaics. Developing countries are already taking the lead: 10,000 rural households now have solar electricity in Kenya, 8,000 in Colombia, 3,000 in Sri Lanka, 3,000 in Zimbabwe, 5,000 in Mexico, 18,000 in the Dominican Republic, with thousands more in Indonesia, the Philippines, India, Pakistan and South Africa. Solar electricity is replacing kerosene, propane, candles and dry-cell batteries, while is displaces conventional fossil-fueled power grid extension. Solar power is helping to bring rural people out of the darkness and into the light of the modern world. -0- /U.S. Newswire 202-347-2770/ --- * Origin: EARTH*Net*Home:SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ECHO*919-9323115 (1:151/502) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 998 4-22-92 1:57pm Area: Home Power From: Danny Burdick To: All Re: En-Log Corporation..? Attr: Local ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Looking for anything in the way of help finding out about an En-Log Corporation Series 3000-EMS Facility Automation System Where did they go..what is it...who are they now...where..? Dan Burdick Energy --- * Origin: Energy * Where people discuss it before it runs out! (1:374/17) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1091 4-24-92 12:20pm Area: Home Power From: Dave Paxton To: Danny Burdick Re: En-Log Corporation..? Attr: Rcvd ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ DB>Looking for anything in the way of help finding out about an DB>En-Log Corporation Series 3000-EMS Facility Automation System DB>Where did they go..what is it...who are they now...where..? DB> Dan Burdick DB> Energy Hey, look, there is another person in this echo. Does this mean that there has been a correction in the problem that has isolated the S.Fl. area from the rest of the world??? Where are you located Dan?? Have you tried looking up the company name in the Library's reference section? I usually find what I am looking for there. nless of course it is too small of a company. You can also check with the state that the company was in in the corporations office if they were incorporated or the ficticious names if they were not. I hope this means we are finally connected to the net. TTYL Big Dave * SLMR 1.05 * It's only a hobby ... only a hobby ... only a --- WM v2.01 [Eval]/92-0821 * Origin: Daybreak Mail System Ft Lauderdale, FL *USR/HST* (1:369/3) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1093 4-26-92 6:05pm Area: Home Power From: Danny Burdick To: Dave Paxton Re: En-Log Corporation..? Attr: Local ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Hey, look, there is another person in this echo. Does this > mean that > there has been a correction in the problem that has isolated > the S.Fl. > area from the rest of the world??? Where are you located > Dan?? Don't be too quick to think things are fixed..I am in Rockledge Florida...not too far from you....let's see if we get anyone from Calif. on here first... --- * Origin: Energy * Where people discuss it before it runs out! (1:374/17) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1141 4-29-92 11:32am Area: Home Power From: Dave Paxton To: Danny Burdick Re: En-Log Corporation..? Attr: Rcvd ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ DB> Don't be too quick to think things are fixed..I am in Rockledge DB>Florida...not too far from you....let's see if we get anyone from Calif. DB>on here first... Too Bad. I understand the echo has a message or two a day up north. It's a shame we can't get Fl. connected to the rest of the world. TTYL Big Dave * SLMR 1.05 * It's only a hobby ... only a hobby ... only a --- WM v2.01/92-0265 * Origin: Daybreak Mail System Ft Lauderdale, FL *USR/HST* (1:369/3) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1156 5-01-92 1:15pm Area: Home Power From: Daniel Utecht To: All Re: Windmills Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Is there some formula for how close you can put windmills to each other? Does it depend on what type of windmill? Size? Ground obsticles such as trees? Daniel Utecht West Melbourne, FL --- GEcho/beta * Origin: Strats' Asylum * Cocoa Beachs' Largest * (407)799-0390 (1:374/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1329 5-02-92 12:14pm Area: Home Power From: Lawrence London To: Bob Pruett Re: En-Log Corporation..? Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Not sure if we are part of the rest of the world or the end > of it but you get > to North Carolina (and still going!) > Bob P. > --- ProBoard v1.21 [Reg] > * Origin: I live in a messy Igloo! (Penguin Lust BBS) > (1:151/812.0) EARTH*Net BBS in Chapel Hill, N.C. is (has been for way over a year) receiving HOMEPOWR. I have several thousand archived back messages in HP, most of which are documents on various aspects of the technology. At some point I will compress the files and make them freq'able for anyone interested. Where in N.C. is 151/812? --- * Origin: EARTH*Net*Home:SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ECHO*919-9323115 (1:151/502) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1332 5-01-92 1:35pm Area: Home Power From: Bob Pruett To: Dave Paxton Re: En-Log Corporation..? Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ DP> Too Bad. I understand the echo has a message or two a day up north. It's DP> a shame we can't get Fl. connected to the rest of the world. Not sure if we are part of the rest of the world or the end of it but you get to North Carolina (and still going!) cya Bob P. --- ProBoard v1.21 [Reg] * Origin: I live in a messy Igloo! (Penguin Lust BBS) (1:151/812.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1666 5-04-92 4:53pm Area: Home Power From: Lawrence London To: ALL Re: wind power Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ * Forwarded from "Sustainable Agriculture" * Originally by Lawrence London * Originally to Keith Rogers * Originally dated 4 May 1992, 16:53 Article 7027 (67 more) in sci.energy: From: Sherwood Botsford Subject: Re: Darrius wind turbines (was Re: Off-shore wind power Date: 23 Apr 92 17:44:29 GMT One thing I've yet to see is a Darrias rotor with a Savronius rotor perched at the top, or along the axis. Sized appropriately, this would make the whole assembly self starting, with a minor decrease in efficiency. As I recall doing some research on S rotors, using hemi-cylinders, they max out at about 35% efficiency. Don't recall if that's 35% of the 65% max theory efficiency, or 35% of total energy present. Considering how much easier they are to make for the home owner, building twice as many wouldn't be unreasonable. One means of emergency braking a vertical axis turbine is to have the axis extend below the pto for the generator and spin a paddle in a large tank. When Rpm exceeds a certain point, the tank is filled with water. As long as your shaft is strong enough to withstand the torque, this will still allow power generation during a gale. For really clever usage, you could regulate the level of water. All that extra energy gets converted into heat; Insulate the tank, and use wind generated hot water. (100% shaft-power -> heat conversion. Not quite, but close) Article 7044 (66 more) in sci.energy: From: Valerie Maslak Subject: Came in late in the wind discussion Date: 25 Apr 92 01:40:38 GMT I came in late in a topic I'm very interested in: wind energy. If by any remote chance anyone has been archiving this line of discussion, I'd really appreciate a copy. Otherwise, I have some questions. I read an article recently about a company in Rinkoeping, Denmark, that was a heavyweight in wind energy consulting. Does anyone have the name and address of this company? If not, who or what is the best source of info about medium-tech commercial or large-scale home systems? What exactly are the cost figures for wind energy production these days? What's the approximate cost per kilowatt for some of the systems now available? What are typical top and optimal wind speeds? What would expected buy-in costs be? Does anyone know of any major installations of commercial wind-energy production in the Third World, particularly in marine (seaside) environments? What sort of equipment is needed to feed from wind power into a generator-powered municipal system? Does anyone have a bibliography on commercial/residential wind (and solar) energy equipment? Any and all info appreciated. Valerie Maslak (may be interested in becoming an energy entrepreneur) Article 7048 (65 more) in sci.energy: Subject: Wind Turbines Date: 24 Apr 92 22:12:17 GMT The University of Massachusetts' ESI-80 machine is primarily a research tool but it does have a market for all it will produce. It is located adjacent to a large ski resort that will purchase the electricity for snow making and water slides in the summer. Areas of research are in control theory, instrumentation, wind/diesal power systems, and materials and mechanics in wind turbine construction. > Teetered hub? What? A teetered hub is one with the blades pivoting at the hub instead of ridgidly attached. This reduces some of the dynamic loads on the blade as it rotates through 360 degrees. > How will you "aim" it? The ESI-80 is currently a free yawing machine. The blades are downwind and the blades steer the naccelle as the wind changes. This can cause an average yaw error of 13 degrees off of wind line in some cases. This means less energy captured. Plans are in the works for an actively steered mechanism. This is a control problem involving when to steer it and with what type of drive control. The turbine weighs in at around 13000 pounds, a bit of mass to move smoothly and stop at a desired point. > How do you make your blades? How difficult/expensive is that? The blades are made by a commercial firm which makes the majority of wind turbine blades used in USA. They are wood/epoxy blades. They are very expensive, and thus the subject of much research on how to protect the machine in high winds or in wind shear conditions. > Aren't these the main advantages of wind power over the oceans: > Plenty of space, to facilitate commercial-scale expansion. > Steadier, more predictable wind over a large area, also for expansion. > A uniform construction platform. Thus, floating platforms could be build > on land and anchored out there without evaluating the cite. Europe has done the most off-shore wind farms and these are not really far off shore. Two factors come to play. Survivability, These machines are living on the edge on shore. The expected life of a machine is perhaps 15, 20 years. Off shore presents a whole lot of problems. Those who live on the ocean know what a price it can extract an tiny little machines that men put up. Another problem is getting the power ashore and into the grid. > WATER IS FLEXIBLE. > OK. Let me explain why I think that is so important: > If the wind turbines (any variety for now) were on floating platforms, > anchored to, say, a big chunk of concrete on the sea floor; the wind > would always push the turbine away from the wind's source. Could that > be used to aim the turbine, since it will always swing to face the > wind head on? Costal winds tend to be bi-directional with out much variation. Elaborate schemes to aim the machine are not really needed. They can be fixed and merely shut down when the wind does go off. By running the machine only in optimum winds you maximize output and minimize wear and tear on the machine, thus extending service. Also note. .. Ocean currents do not follow the wind and would steer the platforms at random. > Now, imagine a darrius-type turbine, BUT TURNED IN IT'S SIDE. On either > end of the axle would be a tower. The two towers, if not only by the axle, > would be structually connected. The towers would each be connected to the > a.... > Transmission equipment will be enormous, since the turbine's RPM will be > so low and torue will be so high. What can alleviate this? Low-RPM > generators? High-radius generators? But that would neccecitate deveolping > new generators, wouldn't it (bad news)? > Will there be This is the norm in wind power. The blades rotate at low speeds ( seventy something rpm perhaps ) and the generators run at 1750 RPM. Gear boxes are one of the major expenses in wind turbines. Many machines derive their frequency control of the AC output mechanically by the speed of the generator. This of course makes the demands on the drive train even more stringent. > Could the self-aiming property of bouyant platforms be used with > conventional HAWT's? Perhaps we could make them much larger if we > didn't need the aiming system, and could support the axle on BOTH ends > of the hub. Still, though, would my idea let us absorb a higher cross- > section of wind (rectangular, instead of circular). One should consider that having all your resources in one huge machine could be economically devastating. It is either working or not working. A wind farm on the other hand, can have %25 of its machines down and still be producing while maintaining the others. >> Craig Meyer Steve Robbins Renewable Energy Lab University of Massachusetts Department of Mechanical Engineering Amherst, Ma. 01003 Article 7049 (64 more) in sci.energy: From: Tom Gray Subject: Re: Darrieus turbines Date: 24 Apr 92 14:40:00 GMT /* Written 2:28 pm Apr 19, 1992 by pgipe in cdp:wind.energy */ /* ---------- "Offshore Wind Power" ---------- */ The Darrieus turbines is actually a class of vertical axis machines several of which were built in France during the '20s. The phi configuration Darrieus or eggbeater is just as efficient as conventional wind turbines. However, mfgs. used aluminum extrusions for the blades. These were both more costly and wore out sooner than the fiberglass blades on conventional turbines. The limiting factor on Darrieus turbines is their height above ground. In general they're limited to short towers and this is disadvantageous. Paul --- * Origin: EARTH*Net*Home:SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ECHO*919-9323115 (1:151/502) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1893 5-05-92 8:56pm Area: Home Power From: Dave Paxton To: Bob Pruett Re: En-Log Corporation..? Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ BP>Not sure if we are part of the rest of the world or the end of it but you g BP>to North Carolina (and still going!) Somebody fixed this darn thing, now we are finally connected. Thanks for the info. Big Dave * SLMR 1.05 * Unable to locate Coffee -- Operator Halted! --- WM v2.01/92-0265 * Origin: Daybreak Mail System Ft Lauderdale, FL *USR/HST* (1:369/3) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1894 5-05-92 9:02pm Area: Home Power From: Dave Paxton To: Lawrence London Re: En-Log Corporation..? Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ LL>EARTH*Net BBS in Chapel Hill, N.C. is (has been for way over a year) LL>receiving HOMEPOWR. I have several thousand archived back messages in HP, LL>most of which are documents on various aspects of the technology. At some LL>point I will compress the files and make them freq'able for anyone LL>interested. Interested... dose a chicken have lips? Let me know down this way so I can start being a pain in the a** to my sysop These last couple of days are the FIRST messages we have seen down here in S. Fl. Now were connected, now all I need is a job so I can afford these alternative power projects on my drawing board. TTYL Big Dave * SLMR 1.05 * It's only a hobby ... only a hobby ... only a --- WM v2.01/92-0265 * Origin: Daybreak Mail System Ft Lauderdale, FL *USR/HST* (1:369/3) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 2082 5-06-92 1:14pm Area: Home Power From: Lawrence London To: Dave Paxton Re: En-Log Corporation..? Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > LL>point I will compress the files and make them freq'able for anyone > LL>interested. I'll announce it here when I get it done & it'll be RSN [REAL SOON, NOW] > alternative power projects on my drawing board. Give me a design (I have welding and much other equip. and have access to much other) for a homebuilt hybrid darrieus/savonius rotor-driven wind turbine that will be effective on a site with intermittent medium-velocity wind. Any ideas? --- * Origin: EARTH*Net*Home:SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ECHO*919-9323115 (1:151/502) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 2624 5-04-92 2:48pm Area: Home Power From: Bob Pruett To: Lawrence London Re: En-Log Corporation..? Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ LL> Where in N.C. is 151/812? Goldsboro, NC Home of Seymour-Johnson AFB or referred to as Saudi-Johnson these days.. --- ProBoard v1.21 [Reg] * Origin: I live in a messy Igloo! (Penguin Lust BBS) (1:151/812.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 3589 5-08-92 11:41am Area: Home Power From: Dave Paxton To: Lawrence London Re: En-Log Corporation..? Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ LL>Give me a design (I have welding and much other equip. and have access to LL>much other) for a homebuilt hybrid darrieus/savonius rotor-driven wind LL>turbine that will be effective on a site with LL>intermittent medium-velocity wind. Any ideas? I have acces to all this equipment and the knowledge of how to use it but no money to buy the needed materials. The problem is I have the "general design" down but untill I start hands on building to assure the "on paper" ideas work in hard steel or concrete. I have plans for a methane digester that I am sure will work but the only windmill plans I have have too many "hands on" refinements to work out. I too have been captured by the verticle windmill but the "heavy metal" darrieus/savonius rotor you are talking about would not have been one of my choices. See, down here in hurricane land we also have to consider what our windmill will be like in a 100 mph wind . As far as a horizontal windmill no one will ever be able to surpass the "standard" set by the Jacobs windmill . I wish someone had the money to buy up all the patents and rights to the Jacob and start production again. If you would like I could try to put some of the "general design" drawings into ascii format and place them here for you to look over. TTYL Big Dave * SLMR 1.05 * Unable to locate Coffee -- Operator Halted! --- WM v2.01/92-0265 * Origin: Daybreak Mail System Ft Lauderdale, FL *USR/HST* (1:369/3) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 4051 5-09-92 04:57am Area: Home Power From: Lawrence London To: Dave Paxton Re: En-Log Corporation..? Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > If you would like I could try to put some of the "general > design" > drawings into ascii format and place > them > here for you to look over. Thanks! I would like to see those. --- * Origin: EARTH*Net*Home:SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ECHO*919-9323115 (1:151/502) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 6106 5-11-92 5:28pm Area: Home Power From: Dave Paxton To: Lawrence London Re: En-Log Corporation..? Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ LL> > If you would like I could try to put some of the "general LL> > design" LL> > drawings into ascii format and place LL> > them LL> > here for you to look over. LL>Thanks! I would like to see those. OK, I'll see what I can do with ascii drawings. It'll probably take a day or two but keep looking for them. I will post them as a general message to all so don't "skim" over them. Later Big Dave * SLMR 1.05 * Press -- to continue ... --- WM v2.01/92-0265 * Origin: Daybreak Mail System Ft Lauderdale, FL *USR/HST* (1:369/3) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 7242 5-13-92 8:42pm Area: Home Power From: Dave Paxton To: All Re: drawing part 2 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ TOP VIEW WIND DIRECTION | | | V o---------- | | | | | -----------o----------0----------o A /| | B | | | | | | | | o | | | | | Detail A /\ / \ <--Spring 0--------------------------------- / ^ ^ / Pivot Support / Arm / <-Sail / Detail B \ / \ / \ / \ / O <---Bicycle Hub (with 10 speed gears) / \ / \<--- Support Arms spaced 90 degrees / \ / \ --- WM v2.01/92-0265 * Origin: Daybreak Mail System Ft Lauderdale, FL *USR/HST* (1:369/3) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 7243 5-13-92 8:44pm Area: Home Power From: Dave Paxton To: All Re: drawing part 3 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ SIDE VIEW Hub and Guys --------- | ---------- | V | | | | /|\ | Sail | / | \ | Area |-------/--|--\-------|<---Pivot | /\ | | | | | | | | | | | | | ---------- | | ----------- | | Tower --- WM v2.01/92-0265 * Origin: Daybreak Mail System Ft Lauderdale, FL *USR/HST* (1:369/3) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 7529 5-13-92 11:10am Area: Home Power From: Dave Paxton To: All Re: drawings Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Well, guys, here it is. This is an ascii "rough drawing" of the Paxton Windmill. Instead of heavy metal or wood blades this design is for cloth "sails" which if the weather becomes extreamly violent would tear or shred instead of large, rigid, heavy pieces of sheet metal or plywood becomeing airborn and destroying other projects or property. My first experiment was to be a "small" windmill made of electrical tubeing with 10 ft long support arms. The hub was to be the hub of the rear wheel of a 10 speed bicycle with the sprocket attatched. The "axel" of the bicycle is replaced by a 5 ft steel rod of the same diameter and threaded on the bottom end the same height as the axel is long plus about 4 inches to mount the axel to the top of the tower. The top of the axel is used as a support for the guy wires. <2nd drawing> This hub on larger windmills could be the a front wheel hub from a small car or trailer with the support arms bolted to the hub like a wheel. The pivot is actually the bearing from the steering "head" of a bicycle placed in the middle of the U shaped sail support. The sails for the smaller experimental windmill would have either been 10 ft wide by 10 feet tall or 10 feet wide by 20 ft. tall. The sails pivot freely but have "stops" to hold them in line with the support arm on the "power" side. The springs are to hol the sails out when the wind slows or stops so that one side will catch the wind from any direction once it starts up again. The idea being that the wind will blow the power side sail open till it hits the stop but the nonpower side will find the position itself with least resistance to the wind. For the generator itself I had hoped to build an altenator simillar to flywheel altenators on todays small engines. This is a ring of magnets and a stator in line with each ring of magnets. The idea being that the largest sprocket on the hub connected to the smallest sprocket I could find by as short as possible chain and the altenator attatched to this "driven shaft". It might be easier to print out this message and look st the other 2 screens while reading this message. TTYL Big Dave --- WM v2.01/92-0265 * Origin: Daybreak Mail System Ft Lauderdale, FL *USR/HST* (1:369/3) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 7530 5-13-92 11:13am Area: Home Power From: Dave Paxton To: All Re: drawings part2 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ rz ** B0080000000dd38 --- WM v2.01/92-0265 * Origin: Daybreak Mail System Ft Lauderdale, FL *USR/HST* (1:369/3) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------