From samba!concert!rock!stanford.edu!agate!linus!linus.mitre.org!m16547 Mon Oct 26 08:59:13 EST 1992
Article: 122 of alt.co-evolution
Newsgroups: alt.co-evolution
Path: samba!concert!rock!stanford.edu!agate!linus!linus.mitre.org!m16547
From: m16547@mwunix.mitre.org (Arthur Gorski)
Subject: Careers in Sustainability for Technoids?
Message-ID: <m16547.719585860@mwunix>
Summary: Where can someone use computer skills to do some good in the world?
Keywords: jobs, sustainability, environment, computers
Sender: news@linus.mitre.org (News Service)
Nntp-Posting-Host: mwunix.mitre.org
Organization: The MITRE Corporation
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1992 12:57:40 GMT
Lines: 13

As a subscriber to WER, and a lurker on this newsgroup, I've been following
all the talk on sustainability with great interest.  What I'm doing now is
searching for a way that I, a 40 year old computer systems engineer, can
contribute something back to society.  Volunteer work in my spare time is
one thing, but I would prefer to use my skills in a vocation that would be
rewarding on a full-time basis.  Is there a good listing of organizations in
need of technoids like me that are doing some good out there?  I'm a
versatile generalist with lots of experience in real-time flight simulation,
visual systems and virtual environments, a little Unix development and system
administration, and a first class Macintosh guru.  Anyone want a resume? 
--
email:  agorski@mitre.org        Arthur M. Gorski        (713) 333-0980
snail:  The MITRE Corporation, 1120 NASA Road One, Houston, Texas 77058


From samba!concert!gatech!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!convex!uunet!uunet!bounce-back Sat Nov 14 10:31:30 EST 1992
Article: 145 of alt.co-evolution
Xref: samba news.announce.newgroups:2234 news.groups:39076 alt.co-evolution:145 alt.drugs:31962 alt.astrology:2879 alt.pagan:21082 alt.psychoactives:1737 alt.support.cancer:254 misc.fitness:12488 misc.kids:44389 rec.food.veg:17970 sci.med:32513 sci.skeptic:29799
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,alt.co-evolution,alt.drugs,alt.astrology,alt.pagan,alt.psychoactives,alt.support.cancer,misc.fitness,misc.kids,rec.food.veg,sci.med,sci.skeptic
Path: samba!concert!gatech!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!convex!uunet!uunet!bounce-back
From: kaminski@netcom.com (Peter Kaminski)
Subject: CFV: misc.health.alternative
Followup-To: poster
Approved: tale@uunet.uu.net
Sender: tale@uunet.uu.net (David C Lawrence)
Organization: The Information Deli - via Netcom / San Jose, California
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 10:15:48 GMT
Message-ID: <BxnGIE.FEv@uunet.uu.net>
Lines: 119

This is the official CALL FOR VOTES regarding the creation of a new
newsgroup, misc.health.alternative.

This message may be redistributed freely; please distribute it to
whomever you think may be interested, or have them request their own
copy by email from <kaminski@netcom.com>.

SUMMARY:

Name:    misc.health.alternative
Purpose: Alternative, complementary and holistic health care.
Status:  unmoderated

Voting period:  12 Nov 1992 through 12 Dec 1992
Voting address: kaminski@netcom.com
Vote yes with:  vote misc.health.alternative yes
Vote no with:   vote misc.health.alternative no


VOTING INSTRUCTIONS:

The voting period is from Thursday, 12-Nov-1992 00:00 GMT through
Saturday, 12-Dec-1992 23:59 GMT.

In order to vote for or against this newsgroup, you must send an
email message to <kaminski@netcom.com>.  If you wish, you may reply
to this article, and your reply will automatically be emailed to
<kaminski@netcom.com>.

Your email message should contain one of the following two lines,
either in the Subject or body of the message:

        vote misc.health.alternative yes
        vote misc.health.alternative no


The first line registers a vote for the creation of the newsgroup.
The second line registers a vote against the creation of the newsgroup.

Any unambiguous vote received will be counted, even if it does not
contain the suggested text.

Ambiguous votes will NOT be counted.  A vote may be ambiguous because
it does not refer to misc.health.alternative, does not contain one
and only one of "yes" or "no" (or their synonyms), or includes a
conditional such as "I vote ... if ...".

Multiple voting messages from the same person must be sent from the
same address.  If multiple votes are received from the same person,
only the last vote received is counted.  Votes posted to any newsgroup
will not be counted.

If you have any problem with voting, you can get help by sending email
to <kaminski@netcom.com> or <71053.2155@compuserve.com>.


CHARTER AND INTRODUCTION FOR MISC.HEALTH.ALTERNATIVE:

IMPORTANT NOTICES -- READ THESE
-------------------------------

Reading messages on misc.health.alternative cannot substitute for
seeing your doctor.  If you are ill, or concerned about a medical
problem, go to a doctor or other qualified, licensed health care
practitioner.

Usenet is NOT an appropriate medium to diagnose, prescribe for, or
treat any medical condition.  misc.health.alternative is a forum for
general discussion of alternative health care.  NOTHING POSTED TO
MISC.HEALTH.ALTERNATIVE SHOULD EVER BE CONSTRUED AS PROFESSIONAL
MEDICAL ADVICE INTENDED FOR PARTICULAR INDIVIDUALS.  NO DOCTOR-PATIENT
RELATIONSHIP, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, SHALL BE CONVEYED BY MESSAGES IN
THIS NEWSGROUP.

Remember that anyone can post anything to Usenet.  Messages are NOT
checked or verified for accuracy or validity by anyone before being
automatically distributed to readers.

Before taking any action because of a message posted to Usenet, verify
the information in it with a reliable source, such as your health care
professional.

When you post to misc.health.alternative, remember that you are fully
responsible for the content of your messages.  Post responsibly.

Messages which are specifically disallowed in misc.health.alternative:
commercial or for-profit messages; announcements of professional
products or services (even if they are allowed elsewhere on Usenet);
diagnoses, prescriptions or treatments for a specific individual; and
fraudulent or illegal messages.


CHARTER
-------

misc.health.alternative is a newsgroup for general non-technical
discussion (pro *and* con) of health care and therapies which are
alternative, complementary, or not commonly accepted by Western
scientific medicine.

Appropriate topics include (but are not limited to): acupuncture,
Alexander technique, alternative cancer therapies, aromatherapy,
ayurveda, chiropractic, color therapy, healing, herbalism, holistic
dentistry, holistic medicine, homeopathy, hypnosis, iridology,
macrobiotics, meditation, megavitamin therapy, midwifery, naturopathy,
natural vision improvement (Bates method, etc.), osteopathy,
radiesthesia, reflexology, shiatsu and do-in, traditional medicine
(Arab, Chinese, Native American, etc.), and yoga.

Flames, name-calling, and abusive behavior in general (from either
side) are not welcome, but constructive criticisms and arguments are
encouraged, with the caveat that misc.health.alternative is to be a
generally non-technical consumer level discussion group.

May happiness and health be with you!
-- 
Peter Kaminski
kaminski@netcom.com
71053.2155@compuserve.com


From samba!concert!rock!stanford.edu!ames!saimiri.primate.wisc.edu!caen!umeecs!umn.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!hank Fri Nov 20 23:23:37 EST 1992
Article: 146 of alt.co-evolution
Xref: samba sci.med.nutrition:1362 sci.med:32798 alt.co-evolution:146
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition,sci.med,alt.co-evolution
Path: samba!concert!rock!stanford.edu!ames!saimiri.primate.wisc.edu!caen!umeecs!umn.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!hank
From: hank@netcom.com (Hank Roberts)
Subject: Re: Comprehensive list of nutritional contents of foods?
Message-ID: <1992Nov20.063101.22598@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
References: <1992Nov19.044133.3274@nic.csu.net> <DRAND.92Nov19120051@spinner.osf.org>
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 06:31:01 GMT
Lines: 18

drand@spinner.osf.org (Douglas S. Rand) writes:
>and I think the Whole Earth Catalog has the info too.  

>From page 243 of the Essential Whole Earth Catalog, likely out of date
by now but a place to begin:

Nutritive Value of Foods
1985, 72 pp
Stock # 001-000-04457-5
$2.75 postpaid from
Superintendent of Documents
US Government Printing Office
Washington DC 20402
-------------------------------
  Claimer: I proofread the Catalog and quarterly Whole Earth Review;
any errors therein may be mine.  More info available from
wer@well.sf.ca.us
  Crossposted to    alt.co-evolution  (newsgroup for readers of WER/WEC)


From samba!concert!rock!stanford.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!nigel.msen.com!emv Fri Dec 18 00:12:34 EST 1992
Article: 153 of alt.co-evolution
Path: samba!concert!rock!stanford.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!nigel.msen.com!emv
From: emv@msen.com (Edward Vielmetti)
Newsgroups: alt.co-evolution
Subject: Descriptive bibliography anyone?
Date: 17 Dec 1992 06:01:47 GMT
Organization: Msen, Inc. -- Ann Arbor, Michigan
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <1gp54pINNqp7@nigel.msen.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.msen.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]

This looks like good WER stuff, please contact Brett direct.  thanks.  --Ed

[ Article crossposted from k12.library ]
[ Author was Brett.Charbeneau@p36.f300.n271.z1.fidonet.org ]
[ Posted on Fri, 11 Dec 92 22:53:00 PDT ]

     Hello!

          Anyone out there interested in the book arts or
analytical bibliography?

          The Research Libraries Group?

          Fine bindings?

          Letterpress Printing?

          Special Collections?

          Paper conservation?

          Papermaking?

          MARC (this especially)?

          Looking forward to hearing from all of you!  Until then,
the subscribers will find me,

                    Their most humble servant:
                         
/---------------------------------------------------------------\
|  Brett Charbeneau, Apprentice Printer  Phone: (804) 229-1000  | 
|  Colonial Williamsburg Foundation      FAX  : (804) 221-8948  |
|  P.O. Box 1776-MHW                                            |
|  Williamsburg, VA 23187-1776                                  |
|                                                               |
|              INTERNET: 72410.3034@Compuserve.com              |
|                      FIDO: 1:271/300.36                       |
\_______________________________________________________________/





--  
uucp: uunet!m2xenix!puddle!271!300.36!Brett.Charbeneau
Internet: Brett.Charbeneau@p36.f300.n271.z1.fidonet.org


From samba!concert!gatech!europa.asd.contel.com!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!well!well.sf.ca.us!hank Wed Jan  6 21:37:10 EST 1993
Article: 154 of alt.co-evolution
Xref: samba rec.gardens:12748 alt.co-evolution:154
Newsgroups: rec.gardens,alt.co-evolution
Path: samba!concert!gatech!europa.asd.contel.com!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!well!well.sf.ca.us!hank
From: hank@well.sf.ca.us (Hank Roberts)
Subject: Re: Wall-o-Water (for tomatoes)
Message-ID: <hank.726345839@well.sf.ca.us>
Sender: news@well.sf.ca.us
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link
References: <psmith.726343485@cunews>
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 18:43:59 GMT
Lines: 21

In <psmith.726343485@cunews> psmith@alfred.carleton.ca (Peter Smith) writes:

>Wall-O-Water, Kozy Coats ... call them what you will.  I'm curious
>about these tomato plant outdoor wraps that are filled with water in
>order to allow earlier transplanting, and faster yield.

>Have people had good experiences with them.  In particular:

>1) how much earlier did you get a yield

>2) any precautions

>3) what else are they used on (eg: peppers, early melons, ...)

>Thanks in advance

My old friend Dick Fugett has used them for years and consistently has
the earliest edible tomato in his area.  I've crossposted this to alt.co-
evolution because it's something that CoEvolution Quarterly recommended
years ago and I even sold for a while.  Wall-o-water works very well to
extend the cold-hardiness.


From samba!concert!gatech!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!torn!nott!bnrgate!bcars267!rthacker Wed Jan  6 21:37:41 EST 1993
Article: 155 of alt.co-evolution
Xref: samba rec.gardens:12754 alt.co-evolution:155
Newsgroups: rec.gardens,alt.co-evolution
Path: samba!concert!gatech!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!torn!nott!bnrgate!bcars267!rthacker
From: rthacker@bnr.ca (Rob Thacker local login)
Subject: Re: Wall-o-Water (for tomatoes)
Message-ID: <1993Jan6.204211.19597@bnr.ca>
Sender: Rob Thacker
Nntp-Posting-Host: bcars64d
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ontario, Canada
References: <psmith.726343485@cunews> <hank.726345839@well.sf.ca.us>
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 20:42:11 GMT
Lines: 59


In article <hank.726345839@well.sf.ca.us>, hank@well.sf.ca.us (Hank Roberts) writes:
|> In <psmith.726343485@cunews> psmith@alfred.carleton.ca (Peter Smith) writes:
|> 
|> >Wall-O-Water, Kozy Coats ... call them what you will.  I'm curious
|> >about these tomato plant outdoor wraps that are filled with water in
|> >order to allow earlier transplanting, and faster yield.
|> 
|> >Have people had good experiences with them.  In particular:
|> 
|> >1) how much earlier did you get a yield
|> 
|> >2) any precautions
|> 
|> >3) what else are they used on (eg: peppers, early melons, ...)
|> 
|> >Thanks in advance
|> 
|> My old friend Dick Fugett has used them for years and consistently has
|> the earliest edible tomato in his area.  I've crossposted this to alt.co-
|> evolution because it's something that CoEvolution Quarterly recommended
|> years ago and I even sold for a while.  Wall-o-water works very well to
|> extend the cold-hardiness.

I tried the wall-o-water on my tomatoes last year, and I wasn't
too impressed.  I did the following experiment:

   Three tomato plants were planted in the spring (in the Ottawa area).
   All plants were the "Siberian" cold-tolerant variety (around 55 days
   to maturity), and each was 8 weeks old and was flowering WHEN PLANTED
   outside.  Call the plants A, B, and C.  The weather was cool for
   April, and warm and dry for May, but the nighttime lows were never
   below -3 or -4 C.  The garden was dug and prepared the previous fall.

   "A" was planted mid-April, after trying to warm the soil up with the
   wall-o-water.  This didn't work too well, since there was still
   a little ice in the planting hole (too much frozen soil around the
   hole keeping it cool -- it may have been better to try and warm the
   entire garden with plastic or something).  The wall-o-water was used
   for "A", until late May.
   "B" was planted late April, in cool, but not frozen soil.  The
   wall-o-water was used on B until late May.
   "C" was planted early to mid May, when the soil had warmed up a
   little, and frosts were light.  C was NOT protected.

   C beared ripe fruit in mid June, with A and B bearing ripe fruit
   about two weeks AFTER that.  "A" did suffer some frost or cold
   damage despite being protected with wall-o-water, but it didn't
   seem to affect it bearing fruit at the same time as "B".  Note
   that earlier planting resulted in later fruit!  (Despite the
   plants being the same age when set outside.)  The cold April
   may have skewed (slightly) the results a bit more against
   wall-o-water, than an average April would.

I realize that one experiment isn't too significant, but IMHO it is
better to plant warm crops when the weather has warmed up.  If you
want to try to get earlier fruit, get special varieties and grow them
indoors a little longer (until they flower).



From samba!concert!uvaarpa!caen!uwm.edu!linac!unixhub!ariadne.SLAC.Stanford.EDU!joann Tue Jan 12 11:41:26 EST 1993
Article: 160 of alt.co-evolution
Xref: samba alt.sustainable.agriculture:526 alt.co-evolution:160
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture,alt.co-evolution
Path: samba!concert!uvaarpa!caen!uwm.edu!linac!unixhub!ariadne.SLAC.Stanford.EDU!joann
From: joann@ariadne.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Jo Ann Malina)
Subject: Re: Planting onions by the phases of the moon.
Message-ID: <C0qopB.96D@unixhub.SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Sender: news@unixhub.SLAC.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
References: <1993Jan12.042018.19292@samba.oit.unc.edu> <1993Jan12.042305.19622@samba.oit.unc.edu>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 11:46:22 GMT
Lines: 36

In article <1993Jan12.042305.19622@samba.oit.unc.edu> london@sunSITE.unc.edu (Larry London) writes:
>Article 12828 of rec.gardens:
>From: cs161fcd@sdcc10.ucsd.edu (Sean Maschue)
>Newsgroups: rec.gardens
>Subject: Setting-out onions by the moon
>Keywords: moon lunar gravity onions alliums
>Date: 11 Jan 93 22:36:43 GMT
>Lines: 16
>
>What is the proper phase of the moon to set out onion bulbs by?
>Waning seems familiar to me, but I can't remember?

According to the section "Planting by the Moon" in my Jim Maynard's
Celestial Guide calendar, bulb and root crops should be planted in the
3rd quarter (week past full) or the 4th if necessary. He also gives
somewhat contradictory advice based on the sign the moon is in:

"Aries is a fire sign. When the moon is in Aries it is a dry and barren time.
Plant onions, cultivate what is already growing and kill weeds and insects."
Then he summarizes:
Best signs to plant in: Cancer, Scorpio and Pisces
Good signs to plant in: Capricorn, Taurus and Libra
Bad signs to plant in: Gemini, Leo, Virgo, Sagittarius, Aquarius and Aries.

Maybe planting onions in the "bad" sign of Aries will give you strong tasting
onions! Taurus and Capricorn are said to be the best for general root crops.

I would check the Old Farmer's Almanac, too.

*) *) *) *) *) *) *) *) *) *) *)!(* (* (* (* (* (* (* (* (* (* (* (* (*
Jo Ann Malina, Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
joann@unixhub.slac.stanford.edu  -or-  415/926-2846
Neither Stanford nor the DOE would be caught dead with these opinions.
Nor do they consult me when formulating theirs.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
It ain't what they call you, it's what you answer to.     -Bill Clinton


From samba!concert!rock!stanford.edu!ames!haven.umd.edu!uunet!destroyer!cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!ucla-mic!ucla-cs!lanai.cs.ucla.edu!pierce Fri Jan 29 22:51:13 EST 1993
Article: 168 of alt.co-evolution
Xref: samba alt.conspiracy:20458 alt.co-evolution:168 alt.news-media:1759 alt.mindcontrol:334
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.co-evolution,alt.news-media,alt.mindcontrol
Path: samba!concert!rock!stanford.edu!ames!haven.umd.edu!uunet!destroyer!cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!ucla-mic!ucla-cs!lanai.cs.ucla.edu!pierce
From: pierce@lanai.cs.ucla.edu (Brad Pierce)
Subject: Negating this social system
Message-ID: <1993Jan29.195543.26216@cs.ucla.edu>
Sender: usenet@cs.ucla.edu (Mr Usenet)
Nntp-Posting-Host: lanai.cs.ucla.edu
Organization: UCLA, Computer Science Department
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 93 19:55:43 GMT
Lines: 14

   "The media don't have to endorse the 'system' in any overt way or
    say anything particularly nice about it at all. Conversely, we
    don't have to like or believe anything the media may say - so long
    as we don't have access continuously and pervasively to models
    which describe *in detail* a completely different kind of life. The
    only thing that's not permitted is the possibility of negating this
    social system by describing another one so completely that we could
    vividly imagine what life would be like in it, hence to desire it
    and then, perhaps, to demand it."
                                       -- Gene Youngblood

[Source: Gene Youngblood, "The Mass Media and the Future of Desire",
CoEvolution Quarterly, Winter 1977/78, pp. 7-16; page 12.]



From samba!concert!rock!stanford.edu!ames!haven.umd.edu!uunet!destroyer!cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!ucla-mic!ucla-cs!lanai.cs.ucla.edu!pierce Sat Jan 30 09:54:19 EST 1993
Article: 168 of alt.co-evolution
Xref: samba alt.conspiracy:20458 alt.co-evolution:168 alt.news-media:1759 alt.mindcontrol:334
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.co-evolution,alt.news-media,alt.mindcontrol
Path: samba!concert!rock!stanford.edu!ames!haven.umd.edu!uunet!destroyer!cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!ucla-mic!ucla-cs!lanai.cs.ucla.edu!pierce
From: pierce@lanai.cs.ucla.edu (Brad Pierce)
Subject: Negating this social system
Message-ID: <1993Jan29.195543.26216@cs.ucla.edu>
Sender: usenet@cs.ucla.edu (Mr Usenet)
Nntp-Posting-Host: lanai.cs.ucla.edu
Organization: UCLA, Computer Science Department
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 93 19:55:43 GMT
Lines: 14

   "The media don't have to endorse the 'system' in any overt way or
    say anything particularly nice about it at all. Conversely, we
    don't have to like or believe anything the media may say - so long
    as we don't have access continuously and pervasively to models
    which describe *in detail* a completely different kind of life. The
    only thing that's not permitted is the possibility of negating this
    social system by describing another one so completely that we could
    vividly imagine what life would be like in it, hence to desire it
    and then, perhaps, to demand it."
                                       -- Gene Youngblood

[Source: Gene Youngblood, "The Mass Media and the Future of Desire",
CoEvolution Quarterly, Winter 1977/78, pp. 7-16; page 12.]



From samba!concert!uvaarpa!caen!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!newsserver.jvnc.net!netnews.upenn.edu!coverton Fri Feb 12 00:52:25 EST 1993
Article: 172 of alt.co-evolution
Path: samba!concert!uvaarpa!caen!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!newsserver.jvnc.net!netnews.upenn.edu!coverton
From: coverton@sibelius.humgen.upenn.edu (Chris Overton)
Newsgroups: alt.co-evolution
Subject: Re: Historical Sources on Sustainability of Agriculture
Message-ID: <COVERTON.93Feb10115657@sibelius.humgen.upenn.edu>
Date: 10 Feb 93 16:56:57 GMT
References: <jhaskett.728403512@well.sf.ca.us>
Sender: news@netnews.upenn.edu
Organization: /home/coverton/.organization
Lines: 14
Nntp-Posting-Host: sibelius.humgen.upenn.edu
In-reply-to: jhaskett@well.sf.ca.us's message of 30 Jan 93 14:18:32 GMT


In article <jhaskett.728403512@well.sf.ca.us> jhaskett@well.sf.ca.us (Jonathan David Haskett) writes:

   I am examining what makes some agricultural systems sustainable
   and others not so. In this regard I am interested in historical references
   which deal with certain examples.

If this a scientific study, then you had better come up with a precise
definition of what it means to be `sustainable' (the cynic in me says there is
no such thing as a sustainable agricultural system).  If this is merely an
historical analysis, then of course feel free to define `sustainable' in
whatever way conforms to your current bias.

Chris Overton


From samba!concert!uvaarpa!caen!malgudi.oar.net!news.ysu.edu!yfn.ysu.edu!aj498 Fri Feb 12 00:54:13 EST 1993
Article: 173 of alt.co-evolution
Newsgroups: alt.co-evolution
Path: samba!concert!uvaarpa!caen!malgudi.oar.net!news.ysu.edu!yfn.ysu.edu!aj498
From: aj498@yfn.ysu.edu (Jonathon D. Haskett)
Subject: Re: Historical Sources on Sustainability of Agriculture
Message-ID: <1993Feb11.160215.7347@news.ysu.edu>
Sender: news@news.ysu.edu (Usenet News Admin)
Nntp-Posting-Host: yfn.ysu.edu
Organization: Youngstown State/Youngstown Free-Net
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1993 16:02:15 GMT
Lines: 57


In a strict thermodynamic sense no agricultural system is
sustainable, neither is any energy consuming system. The 
universe itself tends toward entropy. However, it is possible 
to assign a scientifically meaningful definition to sustainable 
agriculture, as simply an agricultural system which under a 
given set of boundary conditions can produce food 
indefinitely, relative to a human time scale (thousands rather 
than millions of years). It is reasonable to assign this scale, 
since time scales are frequently assigned in many ecosystem 
studies. Using this criteria it is possible to specific which 
agricultural systems appear to be sustainable and which do 
not. For example paddy-rice agriculture in some areas has 
been practiced for >4000 years and would appear to be 
sustainable. The irrigation based agriculture of Mesopotamia 
was apparently not sustainable, since salinization eventually
destroyed the productivity of the soil resource base.  Systems 
can also shift from sustainable to unsustainable if certain key 
features change. For example many slash and burn 
agricultural systems appear to have persisted for long periods 
and if correctly practiced appear to have the possibility of 
persisting indefinitely, however where the periodicity of 
these systems has accelerated (that is were the interval 
between burns on a given location has been reduced), these 
systems have begun to undercut their resource base, and are 
no longer sustainable. 

It should be noted that sustainability as an attribute of 
an agricultural system is not determinant of many other
features of the system which may be deemed desirable or
detrimental. For example a sustainable agricultural system
may be extremely destructive of wildlife habitat and species
diversity. Such a system can require large inputs of energy
in the form of human labor, and engender a highly 
inequitable social system. Thus sustainability needs to 
narrowly defined and evaluated in its own right, leaving the
assessment of these other features of an agricultural system
to other research efforts. 

As the application of this definition to these examples 
indicates, it should be possible to do rigorous research to 
determine which features of an agricultural system ensure 
its sustainability and which features undermine that 
sustainability. Sufficient historical and contemporary data 
exist for coherent research. Indeed, it is vital for our 
continued survival, that we be able to assess and ensure 
the sustainabiltiy of our agricultural system. Thus the 
scientific and historical studies are linked and probably
complementary to each other in an essential way, and 
there is no particular reason that both facets should not 
proceed in a rigorous and meaningful way. 

---------------------------------------------------
* Jonathan Haskett
* jhaskett@asrr.arsusda.gov
---------------------------------------------------



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From: aj498@yfn.ysu.edu (Jonathon D. Haskett)
Subject: Re: Historical Sources on Sustainability of Agriculture
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This is a follow on post to my previous reply to Chris Overton. 

>If this a scientific study, then you had better come up with a 
>precise definition of what it means to be `sustainable' 

I think that I have addressed the issue of a precise definition
of sustainability in the first post. I fail to see what portion
of the original post implied that no precise definition was
operative. On the face of it, the original request for information
seems to be clearly stated and the historical examples 
further specify what is intended. 

>If this is merely an historical analysis, then of course feel 
>free to define `sustainable' in whatever way conforms to 
>your current bias.

I also fail to see why a historical investigation is a priori 
less important than a scientific one (surely paleontology is 
simply one long historical investigation), or why a 
historical investigation is necessarily more biased than a 
scientific one. I view both as simply lines of inquiry which
must meet the same tests for validity. 

Further the entire tone of the post seems to imply that
on the basis of requesting sources on this topic it is possible
to conclude that I have not set out a sound definitional basis
for the investigation, and that I do not adhere to a 
rigorous set of standards with regard to research, but simply
adjust my parameters to conform to my current whimsical
prejudices. 

I don't see how Chris Overton can deduce all this from my 
request, but I would suggest that it is a set of conclusions
derived from bias rather than evidence, and non-scientific
for that reason. 

I would also strongly  suggest that those conlcusions are
false.

-Jonathan Haskett-



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Article: 175 of alt.co-evolution
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From: coverton@sibelius.humgen.upenn.edu (Chris Overton)
Newsgroups: alt.co-evolution
Subject: Re: Historical Sources on Sustainability of Agriculture
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In article <1993Feb11.164159.9175@news.ysu.edu> aj498@yfn.ysu.edu (Jonathon D. Haskett) writes:

   >If this a scientific study, then you had better come up with a 
   >precise definition of what it means to be `sustainable' 

   I think that I have addressed the issue of a precise definition
   of sustainability in the first post. I fail to see what portion
   of the original post implied that no precise definition was
   operative. On the face of it, the original request for information
   seems to be clearly stated and the historical examples 
   further specify what is intended. 

Sorry -- I was not especially diplomatic in my post and I apologize.  I happen
to think that the future of civilization depends greatly on understanding what
a sustainable agricultural systems is and the impact of artificial systems
(agricultural systems) on natural ecosystems.  However, unless I am seriously
mistaken, I don't think a study done with the tools historians would bring to
bear would shed much light on what constitutes a sustainable agriculture.  On
the other hand, a scientist (like an ecologist) might be able to make some
sense of the historical record, especially if teamed with an archeologist.

A couple of points:

Arguments about entropy are not especially germain since the earth is an open
system at more or less dynamic equilibrium over geological time.  Climate
fluctuations would be more entertaining to consider.

Systems that failed will probably be the most informative, since it is much
harder to give an objective measure of systems that succeed (the paddy-rice
agriculture notwithstanding).

Furthermore, systems that apparently succeed could easily be on the cusp of
failure and a slight tweak in some parameter could knock them off.

An obvious prediction: Population density of humans and domestic animals is almost
certainly the single most important factor in determining sustainability.

A couple of questions:

Do you consider American intensive agriculture as practiced in the mid-west
sustainable?

Could you remind me what the average rate of topsoil loss is and the topsoil
depth in the American mid-west?  Should I be concerned about this?

Can you comment on salinization (or maybe its alkyloids, I forget) in the San
Fernando valley?  Is agriculture there sustainable?

Is there anything in the historical record that can contribute to our
understanding of the impact of the massive loss of ground water?

How would you characterize Somalia and Haiti, to name just two, in terms of the
collapse of their agricultural systems?  Here are situations where the
interplay among overpopulation, social conflict, agricultural depredation and
maybe climatic changes have contributed to ecosystem collapse.  Again, I think
an historian would be hard pressed to sort this out without considerable help
from a scientist.

----

I'm not trying to be discouraging --- as I said above, I think this is
important work.  I'm really just trying to understand the methodology and what
could be learned from the proposed approach.  (Sorry, too many grant reviews,
and too many paper reviews have colored outlook on life.)

Chris Overton


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From: Thomas Bjorkman <Thomas_Bjorkman@cornell.edu>
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Subject: Re: Historical Sources on Sustainability of Agriculture
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In article <COVERTON.93Feb11185114@sibelius.humgen.upenn.edu> Chris
Overton, coverton@sibelius.humgen.upenn.edu writes:
>Can you comment on salinization (or maybe its alkyloids, I forget) in
the San
>Fernando valley?  Is agriculture there sustainable?

nit.pick on

In the San Fernando Valley, it is pavement.  The orange groves have given
way to suburbs.  In the San Joaquin, it is salinization and
_alkalinization_  (hi pH).

nit.pick off

I'd like to hear more from Jonathan Haskett.  My perspective on this much
like Chris Overton's ( I am a crop physiologist), so I also have trouble
understanding the angle that Jonathan is taking.  I'd like to understand
the historical-social science perspective to dealing with the issue of
sustainable agriculture better.


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From: aj498@yfn.ysu.edu (Jonathon D. Haskett)
Subject: Re: Historical Sources on Sustainability of Agriculture
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This was originally written as a reply to a posting by Chris
Overton (<COVERTON.93Feb11185114@sibelius.humgen.upenn.edu>),
but in response to Thomas Bjorkman (<Thomas_Bjorkman@cornell.edu>)
I think it will partly explain the approach I am taking.

---
>However, unless I am seriously mistaken, I don't think a 
>study done with the tools historians would bring to bear 
>would shed much light on what constitutes a sustainable 
>agriculture.  On the other hand, a scientist (like an ecologist) 
>might be able to make some sense of the historical record, 
>especially if teamed with an archeologist.

I tend to think that you are placing historians and their tools
in an excessively narrow box, and I would refer you to the
work of William H. McNeil on disease, or Cleometricians such 
as Peter Laslett or Le Roy Ladurie of the Annal School.  
However, perhaps we can advance this part of the discussion 
by leaving aside debate about which department such a 
researcher should have their office in, and instead begin to 
specify which skills and approaches would be useful in such an 
investigation (a topic which I think is of greater mutual 
interest anyway). I agree that systems which failed will 
probably be most informative, and I tend to think first about 
what sources of information would be available, and the skills 
to use them follow. So for example a hypothetical study of 
failure of Mesopotamian agriculture might include:

*Soil cores to determine the stratigraphy of salinization.
*Pollen studies to follow the changes in vegetation.
*Archeological data on farming techniques and diet.
*Energy and nutrient budgets.
*Historical records of granaries, transportation,
  transactions) to estimate yields-productivity and follow
  their decline.
*Examination of literature or chronicles to try to determine
  cultural attitudes to land, nature and agriculture.
*Integration of these data sources into a coherent chronological
  picture reflecting the interplay of crop biology, salinization,
  population, social structure, wars, and cultural attitudes 
  toward nature to analyze the causes of systematic 
  agricultural failure. 

This is presented as a rudimentary example of how such a 
study might be implemented. 

>A couple of points:

>Arguments about entropy are not especially germane since 
>the earth is an open system at more or less dynamic 
>equilibrium over geological time.  Climate fluctuations would
>be more entertaining to consider.

Point well taken.

>An obvious prediction: Population density of humans 
>and domestic animals is almost certainly the single most 
>important factor in determining sustainability.

I'm not sure if I agree with this. An agricultural system 
could be sustainable, while certain population levels 
overshoot its productive capacity and cannot be maintained. 
Bluntly, famine occurs but the system continues. Certainly 
population is often a determinant factor, but not always. 

Answers to Questions:

>Do you consider American intensive agriculture as practiced 
>in the mid-west sustainable?

Whether a current system is considered sustainable depends on which
assumptions are operative (i.e. is petroleum a finite 
resource), that is why these assumptions need to be made 
explicit and the sequence of reasoning needs to be visible:
i.e. I believe that petroleum is a finite resource. I believe that
our American intensive agriculture is greatly dependent on
petroleum. Therefore to the extent that the agricultural system
is dependent on petroleum it is not sustainable. So 1st step is 
to make assumptions explicit then proceed with analysis.

>Is there anything in the historical record that can contribute 
>to our understanding of the impact of the massive loss of 
>ground water?

Areas in which desertification has progressed might have some 
relevant historical information. However I do not know if 
irrigation by ground water has ever been practiced on the 
current scale before. It may be unprecedented. However, 
possibly examining records of well levels in Oklahoma during 
the dustbowl might provide a clue as to what happens when 
they are depleted. In addition the historical record could 
provide a general picture of the variety of ways in which 
societies have responded (successfully and unsuccessfully) to
the depletion of a resource on which they depend. This would
tend to throw light on the reasons why the massive loss of
ground water might continue or be halted, which is surely
relevant to its impact. 

>Could you remind me what the average rate of topsoil loss is 
>and the topsoil depth in the American mid-west?  Should I be 
>concerned about this?

The Soil Conservation Service publishes state maps showing the 
areas in which soil loss is considered to be excessive, and 
estimates of soil loss have been made for particular locations. 
However, I am not aware of regional or even state-wide 
estimates of average topsoil loss rates. The rate of topsoil lost is 
highly variable from site to site depending on the variables 
included in the USLE (Universal soil loss equation). Depth of 
topsoil is also highly variable ( I am confused by the term
topsoil, do you mean the plow-layer or the A horizon? for
purposes of this answer I will assume A horizon). Thus
an average value is difficult obtain and of questionable utility.
Since soils are not static entities but exist in a dynamic balance 
between formation and loss, the real questions have to do with 
relative rates: i.e. in how much of the land area of the midwest 
is the rate of loss of A horizon material due to erosion greater 
than the rate of A horizon formation. Where this loss exceeds 
formation, this represents a net loss of the soil resource, this 
troubles me and should probably trouble you. 

>Can you comment on salinization (or maybe its alkyloids, I 
>forget) in the San Fernando valley?  Is agriculture there
 >sustainable?

I am not sufficiently familiar with salinzation in the San 
Fernando valley to comment on it. However, the Coachela 
valley has also been experiencing salinzation. Essentially at this
location the irrigation has accelerated a the salinzation process 
which was occurring naturally. Excessive salt accumulations 
are now occurring in a matter of decades rather than a matter
of centuries. Remediation up until now has consisted of flushing
the soil by moving large quantities of water through the profile
to leach the salts below the root zone. However, this cannot
be continued indefinitely. Removing the salts by washing them
into the ocean is not feasible since significant concentrations 
of thallium and vanadium have been found, and it would be
unacceptable to move them offsite. Thus, it is certainly not 
assured that agriculture can be continued in the Coachela 
valley indefinitely. 

>How would you characterize Somalia and Haiti, to name just 
>two, in terms of the collapse of their agricultural systems? 

I don't know enough about either Somalia or Haiti to comment
on them, but a large part of my interest in this project was 
precisely to try to develop a method of inquiry which would 
yield meaningful information about the collapse of such
agricultural systems. 

>Here are situations where the interplay among overpopulation, 
>social conflict, agricultural depredation and maybe climatic 
>changes have contributed to ecosystem collapse. Again, I 
>think a historian would be hard pressed to sort this out 
>without considerable help from a scientist.

It seems to me that the interplay of overpopulation, social
conflict, and agricultural depredation are areas which have
traditionally been treated in great detail by historians. See
works on the late Roman empire as an example. Indeed one
may just as easily posit that a scientist might be very limited
in their understanding of these agricultural systems if their
knowledge is limited to a mechanistic understanding of the
the chemistry, physics and biology involved exclusive of the
history, attitudes and social forces at work.

I fail to see the utility of this heavy disciplinary emphasis. So
what if a person trained in one discipline necessarily has a
superficial understanding of another discipline. This is true for
everyone, since nobody can know everything. Surely a problem
such as agricultural sustainability needs to be approached from
several different disciplines, the trick being to usefully
integrate information and theory from all these disparate 
sources. 

(BTW I'm not a historian and I don't play one on TV.   ;-)       )

-----
I hope this clarifies some of my thinking about methodology
and the place of the proposed study. I might add that my
ideas on both these topics are still evolving. 

Jonathan Haskett
----------------------------------------------------------------



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From: coverton@sibelius.humgen.upenn.edu (Chris Overton)
Newsgroups: alt.co-evolution
Subject: Re: Historical Sources on Sustainability of Agriculture
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Jonathan,

Thanks for a very interesting discussion on an important topic.  One final
point --- in my own field, computational biology, interdisciplinary research
involving biologists, computer scientists and mathematicians is essential for
success.  My very strong impression is that your research effort would also
greatly benefit from an interdisciplinary approach, as does virtually any
study of complex systems (complex in both the common and technical sense of
the word).

I would very much enjoy seeing summaries of your work posted as you progress.
If you are willing (and I know this is asking a lot), I for one would like to
see short preliminary reports on whatever interesting observations you make.
(I won't be offended if you say no to that one.)

Chris



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From: coverton@sibelius.humgen.upenn.edu (Chris Overton)
Newsgroups: alt.co-evolution
Subject: Re: Historical Sources on Sustainability of Agriculture
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Jonathan,

Thanks for a very interesting discussion on an important topic.  One final
point --- in my own field, computational biology, interdisciplinary research
involving biologists, computer scientists and mathematicians is essential for
success.  My very strong impression is that your research effort would also
greatly benefit from an interdisciplinary approach, as does virtually any
study of complex systems (complex in both the common and technical sense of
the word).

I would very much enjoy seeing summaries of your work posted as you progress.
If you are willing (and I know this is asking a lot), I for one would like to
see short preliminary reports on whatever interesting observations you make.
(I won't be offended if you say no to that one.)

Chris



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From: kholling@emr1.emr.ca (Kathleen Hollington)
Subject: Re: Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
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Ben,

Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance is a book that almost needs to
be internalized by osmosis.  It also took me a long time to finish it, and
although I probably couldn't tell you much about it now, except that it
dealt with the concept of quality, I feel that it is one of those books that
have profoundly marked my life.  I am currently slowly working my way through
his new book (the 1st one since Zen...) called Lila, which appears to be 
a worthy successor to the first.  Again, slow going but it takes a long time
for the ideas to sink in.  The reference to him was in one of the Whole 
Earth Catalogs - the last one, I believe (small sized).

Robert


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From: Thomas Bjorkman <Thomas_Bjorkman@cornell.edu>
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This doe slook like a very interesting approach.  I know that the
Mesopotamian situation is used as an example of the failure of irrigated
agriculture.  However, I certainly don't know if the social processes
that led to that failure are known.  Are they being repeated in
California, or have we wised up.

Another situation where the social processes are very imporant was
recounted by Garrison Keillor this week.  He was right on the money.  A
farmer in Lake W. had learned about a particular practice that was more
sustainable, planting no-till corn into a killed oat cover crop.  The
ideas behind it all made sense and he was convinced that it would work. 
But he did not want to be the first in Lake Wobegon to do it.  His
neighbors would make fun of him because it was out of the ordinary.

I think this situation arises a lot.  Even though the particular practice
has been proven many places, and is not particularly mysterious, it is
not adopted.  Agricultrual extension agents do a lot of what are called
demonstration and implementation trials for just this reason.  

Sorry to go off track from history to sociology, but I wanted to raise
another example where increasing the sustainablility of agriculture does
not depend on us biologists.


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From: aj498@yfn.ysu.edu (Jonathon D. Haskett)
Newsgroups: alt.co-evolution
Subject: Re: Historical Sources on Sustainability of Agriculture
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I would like to post some corrections and clarifications to 
my previous post. I stated that I wasn't aware of an SCS
effort to quantify soil loss nationally. I have since found
out that there is such an effort which is called the
National Resource Inventory and includes quantitative 
estimates of soil loss nationally as well as areal assessments
of  how much soil is experienceing excessive rates of soil
loss. I would also like to say that bad Cliometrics is
sometimes practiced by historians who try to use biological
or statistical tools which they do not fully understand. I
did not mean to imply that all social scientists are perfect,
(or imperfect).

RE:Thomas Bjorkman's post of Feb 15 on adoption of new 
agricultural methods.

A professor of mine in graduate school recounted his work 
in South America trying to get local farmers to adopt a
new grain variety. At first the extension workers made
the rounds of the villages with a flip-chart, touting
the benefis of the new variety. The farmers all listened
attentively, nodded politely and went planting the old
variety. So another approach was tried. Demonstration
plots were planted around the experiment station, with
the old and new varieties planted in adjacent rows. 
Then a "Field day - open house" was announced. The visiting
farmers were taken on tours around the station. The
grain plants were mature and the new variety was
visibly better (more and larger grain or whatever).
By prearrangement, when the tour stopped in front
of the old and new variety rows, the guide would
be suddenly "called to the phone" and disappear
into the building. There to watch through the
blinds as the farmers ripped the heads of grain off
the new variety, and stuffed it in their pocketts.
I understand that the introduction of
the potato in Germany followed a similar 
methodology. 


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From: london@sunSITE.unc.edu (Larry London)
Subject: Re: Community Land-Link Network
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In article <1655800130@igc.apc.org> Thomas Follis <coyote@igc.apc.org> writes:
>
>  Howdy folks,
>
>   Have a message here from a sister who wants you to know that land-links
>a news letter with locations  of  landed communities interested in new members
>has been updated and available. send a S>A>S>E and green energy of printing 
>etc to Community land-link network,P.O. Box 276, Charleston SC. 29402.
> This news letter also has information and resorces for those who want to start
>their own community baised projects.
>
>Love and Light
>
>  Coyote
>




From samba!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!ames!pacbell.com!well!well.sf.ca.us!hank Wed Feb 24 23:47:44 EST 1993
Article: 193 of alt.co-evolution
Xref: samba sci.med:37450 alt.co-evolution:193
Newsgroups: sci.med,alt.co-evolution
Path: samba!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!ames!pacbell.com!well!well.sf.ca.us!hank
From: hank@well.sf.ca.us (Hank Roberts)
Subject: Seasonal depression/artificial dawn users? (inquiry)
Message-ID: <hank.730584873@well.sf.ca.us>
Summary: Anyone in So. hemisphere, especially?
Keywords: artificial dawn SAD seasonal depression
Sender: news@well.sf.ca.us
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1993 20:14:33 GMT
Lines: 26

Several studies recently have reported that 'artificial dawn' -- lights
that get brighter rather like sunrise, timed to come on before natural
dawn during the winter months -- may work as well as the super-bright
light treatments for seasonal gloom.

I've been looking at a number of simple 'light alarm clocks' recently
which, while not sold as medical devices, interest me as being possibly
useful for people who want to try this approach out;  it's a lifelong
interest for me, I built my first 'alarm clock' on a timer 30 years ago
(but sadly the relay's click woke me before the lights did, abruptly!).

Posting now to inquire particularly whether there are readers in the Southern
Hemisphere, on their way into wintertime now, who are using anything in
the way of lights themselves, in the next few months.  I'm a writer, not
working for or with any of the equipment sources, but rather looking for
people who can "review" these things.  I've crossposted to my 'home'
newsgroup, alt.co-evolution, because I referred briefly to artificial
dawn in an article in the September '92 Whole Earth Review (formerly
CoEvolution Quarterly, part of the Whole Earth Catalog publishing operation)
and that's where I'll pitch anything more that comes form this inquiry.

(For info on Whole Earth, email    wer@well.sf.ca.us    and for the Review
and the Catalog, inquire of your local librarian)

A
or the various Catalogs, inquire of your local librarian).


From samba!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!csus.edu!netcom.com!kaminski Mon Mar  1 11:18:37 EST 1993
Article: 194 of alt.co-evolution
Xref: samba misc.emerg-services:9052 alt.current-events.wtc-explosion:164 alt.co-evolution:194
Newsgroups: misc.emerg-services,alt.current-events.wtc-explosion,alt.co-evolution
Path: samba!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!csus.edu!netcom.com!kaminski
From: kaminski@netcom.com (Peter Kaminski)
Subject: Re: definition of "2m HT"
Message-ID: <1993Mar1.054655.17586@netcom.com>
Organization: The Information Deli - via Netcom / San Jose, California
References: <1993Feb28.184453.4495@fuug.fi>
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1993 05:46:55 GMT
Lines: 108

[Note cross-posting -- set Followup-To: appropriately]

In <1993Feb28.184453.4495@fuug.fi> an8785@anon.penet.fi writes:

>A two-meter Handy Talkie is an amateur radio transceiver that
>operates on the "two meter" (approximately 146 Mhz) frequency band.
>The currently produced ones by Icom, Yaesu, Kenwood, Alnico, and
>other companies are smaller than typical microcassete pocket
>recorders and weigh only a few ounces.

[...]

>As one responder quipped, a swiss army knife, a vice grip pliers,
>electrical tape, a minimaglite flashlight (and possibly a 2m HT)
>would see you through 90% of emergencies...

I'm reminded of a similar list (at a slightly different scale) in a
_Whole Earth Review_ article by Stewart Brand -- "Learning from the
Earthquake" (WER #68, Fall 1990).  It's a first person account and
analysis of "the crucial difference of volunteers" in the 1989 Loma
Prieta (SF Bay Area) quake.

A few of the items from the "What Rescuers Learned" summary:

  Right after an earthquake, nobody's in charge.  You self-start, or
  nothing happens.

  Collect tools!

  When you see a fire starting, do ANYTHING to stop it, right now.

  Join a team or start a team.  Divide up the tasks.  Encourage leadership
  to emerge.

  If you want to help, ask!  If you want to be helped, ask!


And the "Collect Tools!" list:

  These are some of the tools that have proven useful for earthqake
  search and rescue and for fighting fires while they're still small:

  Gas-powered [chain] saws

  Hand saws

  Axes

  Ladders

  Crow bars and pry bars

  Wrenches for gas valves

  Flashlights, miner's lights, lanterns, extra batteries

  Portable generator and power tools and work lights

  Jacks, blocks, and shoring material such as 4x4 lumber

  Rope

  Shovels

  Work gloves, boots

  Loud hailers

  Buckets


As I'm replying to a post about amateur radio transceivers, I'll note that
by sheer coincidence, the same issue of WER has 39 pages on "Radio Earth":

  "Sferics" -- natural radio sounds and how to hear them

  "Radio Earth: The Radio-Seismic Connection"

  "The Covert Spectrum"

  "Tune In the Cosmos" -- amateur radio astronomy

  "Tabletop Earth-Watch Stations" -- hooking up an antenna to a fax

  "A One-Minute Course on How to Do TV"

  "Pirate TV in Eastern Europe"

  "Black Box" -- interview with Pesti Laszlo, Eastern European cameraman

  "Inhabiting the Electronic Environment" -- EMFs 'n' you

  "The Real Honest True Deregulation of Broadcasting" -- *anyone* can
  broadcast in Italy

  "Jailhouse Radio"

  and two book reviews on "Making Radio"


Looks like they're running low on back issues of #68, so a set of
bound photocopies will run $30, but you can order by calling
800-938-6657 or +1 415 332 1716 voice; +1 415 332 3110 fax.

Articles available electronically from Dialog, Mead, and BRS.
WER customer service email address: <wer@well.sf.ca.us>

Pete (not affiliated except as a subscriber)


From samba!concert!uvaarpa!caen!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!malgudi.oar.net!news.ysu.edu!yfn.ysu.edu!aj498 Wed Mar  3 23:44:55 EST 1993
Article: 196 of alt.co-evolution
Newsgroups: alt.co-evolution
Path: samba!concert!uvaarpa!caen!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!malgudi.oar.net!news.ysu.edu!yfn.ysu.edu!aj498
From: aj498@yfn.ysu.edu (Jonathon D. Haskett)
Subject: More  Refs on Sust. Agric. 
Message-ID: <C3Bnnv.7J1@news.ysu.edu>
Sender: news@news.ysu.edu (Usenet News Admin)
Nntp-Posting-Host: yfn.ysu.edu
Organization: Youngstown State/Youngstown Free-Net
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1993 16:40:42 GMT
Lines: 14


Two recent articles which might be of interest regarding
sustainable agriculture:

Parr, J.F. and S.B. Hornick, 1992. Agricultural use of 
organic amendments: A historical perspective. Am. Jou.
of Alternative Agriculture, vol 7:, #4 pp. 181-189

Dicks, M.R., 1992. Commentary: What will be required
to guarantee the sustainability of U.S. agriculture in 
the 21st century?. Am. Jou. of Alternative Agriculture, 
vol 7:, #4 pp. 190-195

-JH-


From samba!concert!uvaarpa!caen!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!malgudi.oar.net!news.ysu.edu!yfn.ysu.edu!aj498 Thu Mar  4 22:21:13 EST 1993
Article: 196 of alt.co-evolution
Newsgroups: alt.co-evolution
Path: samba!concert!uvaarpa!caen!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!malgudi.oar.net!news.ysu.edu!yfn.ysu.edu!aj498
From: aj498@yfn.ysu.edu (Jonathon D. Haskett)
Subject: More  Refs on Sust. Agric. 
Message-ID: <C3Bnnv.7J1@news.ysu.edu>
Sender: news@news.ysu.edu (Usenet News Admin)
Nntp-Posting-Host: yfn.ysu.edu
Organization: Youngstown State/Youngstown Free-Net
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1993 16:40:42 GMT
Lines: 14


Two recent articles which might be of interest regarding
sustainable agriculture:

Parr, J.F. and S.B. Hornick, 1992. Agricultural use of 
organic amendments: A historical perspective. Am. Jou.
of Alternative Agriculture, vol 7:, #4 pp. 181-189

Dicks, M.R., 1992. Commentary: What will be required
to guarantee the sustainability of U.S. agriculture in 
the 21st century?. Am. Jou. of Alternative Agriculture, 
vol 7:, #4 pp. 190-195

-JH-


From samba!sunSITE!london Thu Mar 18 14:36:11 EST 1993
Article: 199 of alt.co-evolution
Xref: samba alt.co-evolution:199 misc.health.alternative:1836
Newsgroups: alt.co-evolution,misc.health.alternative
Path: samba!sunSITE!london
From: london@sunSITE.unc.edu (Larry London)
Subject: Re: Hello...
Message-ID: <1993Mar18.035631.3821@samba.oit.unc.edu>
Sender: usenet@samba.oit.unc.edu
Nntp-Posting-Host: sunsite.unc.edu
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
References: <1993Mar17.142956.623@antioc.antioch.edu>
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1993 03:56:31 GMT

In article <1993Mar17.142956.623@antioc.antioch.edu> jbessone@antioc.antioch.edu writes:
>I don't understand very much of the last topic, but I'm very interested in 
>alternative healing.  Hey what is co-evolution anyway?  I am currently studying
>Reiki-type energy healing, shamanism, including shamanic healing and a whole
>lot of other suff.  

You might be interested in these resources:

Newsgroups:

misc.health.alternative

Mailing lists:

NAT_MED
:
send e-mail to:
almanac@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu

in text of message type:
subscribe nat_med
or
unsubscribe nat_med

to post to the list send your e-mail to:
nat_med@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu

for info on Almanac (the list software and info archive site):
send e-mail to almanac@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu

send guide (how to use Almanac)
send catalog (for lists of archives of posts to lists)
send mail catalog (for list of mailing lists)

FTP/GOPHER site:

GOPHER:
sunSITE.unc.edu 70
pub/academic/medicine/alternative-healthcare

the sunSITE GOPHER is accessable from the NCSU CES GOPHER,
twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu 70


FTP:
ftp sunSITE.unc.edu

cd pub/academic/medicine/alternative-healthcare
(soon to have databases on nutrition, homeopathy and naturopathic medicine)



>
>Hey, have you heard garlic is on the FDA's hit list?  

Sounds like a malodorous plot..


Lawrence
london@sunSITE.unc.edu




From samba!concert!uvaarpa!caen!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!hank Fri Mar 19 20:27:43 EST 1993
Article: 202 of alt.co-evolution
Newsgroups: alt.co-evolution
Path: samba!concert!uvaarpa!caen!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!hank
From: hank@netcom.com (Hank Roberts)
Subject: Re: Hello...
Message-ID: <1993Mar19.203829.2046@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
References: <1993Mar17.142956.623@antioc.antioch.edu>
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1993 20:38:29 GMT
Lines: 30

jbessone@antioc.antioch.edu writes:

>alternative healing.  Hey what is co-evolution anyway?  I am currently studying

"coevolution" refers back to the CoEvolution Quarterly, now called
Whole Earth Review -- a magazine published by the Point Foundation which
also produces the Whole Earth Catalogs.

This is a newsgroup for readers (also often writers) of the Point
publications.  For info on those email     wer@well.sf.ca.us

Also ask your librarian -- librarians know this stuff!

"Coevolution" in the biological sense is the way in which evolution works
to shape different organisms interactively.  For instance, how could you
have flowers without bees?  But how could you have bees without flowers?

Or consider the birds that clean the teeth of alligators, or the little
wrasses that clean the teeth of larger fish.

Consider people, now spreading like kudzu (-:

I'm a proofreader at WER; this newsgroup is entirely unsupported by
Point, purely a for-fun approach to the net by some of us readers and
writers who think that the Net is the real whole earth catalog, or will be
(grin).

Feel free to crosspost to here if you've got an idea that has its roots
somewhere else on the net but that you think other WER readers might find
interesting.


From samba!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!utgpu!richter Sat Mar 20 09:47:29 EST 1993
Article: 203 of alt.co-evolution
Xref: samba talk.religion.misc:40328 alt.co-evolution:203
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.co-evolution
Path: samba!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!utgpu!richter
From: richter@gpu.utcc.utoronto.ca (C. Richter)
Subject: Re: Tibet? Dalai Lama? Buddhism? online anywhere yet?
Message-ID: <C46tJo.7z6@gpu.utcc.utoronto.ca>
Keywords: lookin for
Organization: UTCC Public Access
References: <1993Mar19.183034.22698@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1993 12:33:21 GMT
Lines: 33

In article <1993Mar19.183034.22698@netcom.com> hank@netcom.com (Hank Roberts) writes:
>
>
>Who knows? I've got a friend who's a Buddhist nun, online, who heard
>that they were going to get the Dalai Lama's outfit online -- anyone know?
>
>Crossposted to alt.co-evolution (the newsgroup for Whole Earth Catalog
>readers)

There are several attempts to get Dharamsala online underway.  Dharamsala
is where His Holiness and the Tibetan government in exile are based. 

One proposal has been prepared by the International Committee of Lawyers 
for Tibet in association with the APC network.  This proposal calls for 
about $11,000 of funding to send an APC expert with equipment to India 
for three months to get things set up.  The project is still in the 
fundraising stage.  For more info contact John Maier of the ICLT at 
iclt@igc.apc.org. 

The other, more modest, attempt, spearheaded by the Canada Tibet Committee, 
is to get the Tibetan government's offices in Delhi online to ERNET, the 
Indian branch of Internet.  Once the Delhi connection is functioning (at 
relatively low cost) and the Tibetans are convinced of the power of email, 
it is expected that a Dharamsala-Delhi link will be put in place by the 
Tibetans themselves.  (This link requires some extra hardware and data line
expenses because of the poor telephone connection.)  For more info on this 
scheme, contact the author.

Conrad Richter
Co-Editor
CanTibNet News
richter@gpu.utcc.utoronto.ca 



From samba!concert!uvaarpa!caen!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!hank Sat Mar 20 09:47:40 EST 1993
Article: 202 of alt.co-evolution
Newsgroups: alt.co-evolution
Path: samba!concert!uvaarpa!caen!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!hank
From: hank@netcom.com (Hank Roberts)
Subject: Re: Hello...
Message-ID: <1993Mar19.203829.2046@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
References: <1993Mar17.142956.623@antioc.antioch.edu>
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1993 20:38:29 GMT
Lines: 30

jbessone@antioc.antioch.edu writes:

>alternative healing.  Hey what is co-evolution anyway?  I am currently studying

"coevolution" refers back to the CoEvolution Quarterly, now called
Whole Earth Review -- a magazine published by the Point Foundation which
also produces the Whole Earth Catalogs.

This is a newsgroup for readers (also often writers) of the Point
publications.  For info on those email     wer@well.sf.ca.us

Also ask your librarian -- librarians know this stuff!

"Coevolution" in the biological sense is the way in which evolution works
to shape different organisms interactively.  For instance, how could you
have flowers without bees?  But how could you have bees without flowers?

Or consider the birds that clean the teeth of alligators, or the little
wrasses that clean the teeth of larger fish.

Consider people, now spreading like kudzu (-:

I'm a proofreader at WER; this newsgroup is entirely unsupported by
Point, purely a for-fun approach to the net by some of us readers and
writers who think that the Net is the real whole earth catalog, or will be
(grin).

Feel free to crosspost to here if you've got an idea that has its roots
somewhere else on the net but that you think other WER readers might find
interesting.


