From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!MathWorks.Com!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!menudo.uh.edu!uuneo.NeoSoft.com!sugar.NeoSoft.COM!not-for-mail Tue Mar 15 23:46:26 EST 1994
Article: 8061 of misc.rural
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From: claird@sugar.NeoSoft.COM (Cameron Laird)
Newsgroups: alt.agriculture.misc,misc.rural,sci.econ
Subject: Recruitment of the next generation (was: farm size)
Followup-To: alt.agriculture.misc,misc.rural
Date: 15 Mar 1994 13:57:49 -0600
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Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu alt.agriculture.misc:659 misc.rural:8061 sci.econ:20899

In article <763316832.AA04679@rochgte.fidonet.org>,
Harold Cheetham <Harold.Cheetham@f601.n2613.z1.fidonet.org> wrote:
>-> From: aayyaa@mixcom.mixcom.com (Lloyd Schultz)
			.
			.
			.
>-> The bigger issues of long term soil stewardship, continued  milk supp
>-> saturation and a chance for the economics of dairying to return to a
>-> point that will determine who will be in the business or not needs to
>-> addressed instead of consuming the dairyman's time with the type of
>-> organized whining provided by each new check-off proposal or generic
>-> marketing strategy.
			.
			.
			.
>i agree with you on the growing size of farms and the future.there was
>an article in successful farming this month on just that issue.if farms
>keep growing in size how will the new young farmers just starting going
>to get started if they have to have a farm the size of a corporation
>in order to make a profit.
>     i think its time to down size the farm and make it more accessable
>for young people to get involved in,if we dont do something we want have
>any young farmers entering the scene and then who will feed this
>country.whats your thoughts on this.
I recognize your question as rhetorical hyperbole, but
it's worth answering explicitly:  there *are* "young
farmers entering the scene", and, just as in previous
eras, those most successful at the gamble are the ones
figuring out better ways to run their farms than simply
duplicating the models that worked before.  The people
who will feed us in the next century are the ones
thinking about marketing such value-added produce as
white corn, tofu soybeans, fresh greens for local
restaurants, intensively-grazed cattle (or even poultry!),
...  There's plenty of work to do on the farm, and
plenty of smart young people who want to do it.  We're not
going to see the wheat prices of 1918 again, though, and
we best not spend much time mourning that.
>     thanks for listening.
>
>

Does anyone have a good word for the FmHA "down payment
loan" program?  It looks awful to me:  the national US
Congress appropriates about $26 million for the first
year, and, after some struggle and lots of promotions
by a number of the midwestern states, the FmHA is clos-
ing about four of these a month.  I don't doubt that
the state officials are well-meaning, the borrowing
farmers sober and hard-working, and the Ag Committee
staffers who wrote this earnest, but the net result
looks the same:  if you're willing to spend enough time
filling out FmHA application forms, and are in a favored
category, the government taxes your fellow citizens to
give you, and a lot of administrators along the way, a
little bit of money.  What's the national purpose that
serves?

The first of these loans went to a Nebraska family, so
that it could buy from the husband's uncle the farm the
family was already renting and operating.  What does
that accomplish, please?
-- 

Cameron Laird
claird@Neosoft.com (claird%Neosoft.com@uunet.uu.net)	+1 713 267 7966
claird@litwin.com (claird%litwin.com@uunet.uu.net)  	+1 713 996 8546


From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!drs Tue Mar 15 23:46:38 EST 1994
Article: 8063 of misc.rural
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From: drs@col.hp.com (Don Simmons)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: "The Survivor" address?
Date: 15 Mar 1994 20:57:44 GMT
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division
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     Has any one got an address for this magazine
      book dealear?  Oklahoma (?) i believe.
           Much thanks,
                           Don



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Article: 8065 of misc.rural
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From: GC.SUL@forsythe.stanford.edu (Sullys Maze)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: re: invasive exotics
Date: 15 Mar 1994 08:45:49 -0800
Organization: Stanford University
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    : af017@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David R. Smith) writes:
Subject: Re: escaped exotics



I would like to comment on Karen's advocacy of native plants
and aversion to imported species.
I am also a concerned environmentalist and have spent some
time in the Bay area as well, in California.
I have enjoyed visiting areas which are kept as special
conserving parks, etc. for native plants only.
However, there is a broader view of the environment.
And that is that development and population is literally
aving the land, obviously killing all plants in the
process in the U.S. at something like 200 acres per hour
when averaged nationwide.
Further, when one wants to return a bit of natural land
to native plants only it is very labor intensive and a
slow process indeed.
Thus while such a battle is pursued to preserve native
species over imported ones, the land itself is disappearing
completely to building and freeways etc.
It is a question of perspective.
If I want to reclaim a hundred acre parcel that used to
be a storage yard for some factory I could spend ten
years trying to establish a native plant ecology that
existed millennia ago or I could plant fast growing plants
to restore it as quickly as possible against the ever
present onslaught of development all around it.
To me the choice is clear.
Another brief point of course is that in farming discussions
one is mostly talking about planting contrary to a native
primitive ecology (except for certain radical schools
such as permaculture from Australia, no-till, the one-
straw-revolution method from Japan, etc.).
I am most concerned about North America becoming a big
parking lot, still I enjoy and respect areas which are
preserved for native species.
David Smith
--

--------------------
Hi David.  I don't consider myself an "environmental whacko" as
someone called me, just want folks to THINK first before they dig a
hold and put a plant in the ground.  I don't really understand your
point about replanting the hundred acre parcel with fast growing
plants versus natives.  How would fast growing non-native plants
restore it or protect it from development?  Yes, you could plant
lawn and fast growing trees and shrubs and have something like a
gold course or park.  You would have a "green" area that people and
kids could enjoy.  YOu might support some bird life.  You would
also have a totally artificial environment.

Since this is misc.rural I think it appropriate to discuss this.
Think about how many people-kids especially-who grow up in suburbs,
spend leisure time at malls, theme parks, and other places that are
totally man-made. I don't understand why people who want to move
away from all this to RURAL areas want to then change the rural
areas to man-made ones.  I am not discussing agriculture which is a
different issue.  I am talking about people who move out to rural
areas and then LANDSCAPE with non-native plants. Planting the things
they were used to in the cities, andnot even trying to educate
themselves to the native flora.  These people who struggle with
their roses and the deer eating them are laughable.  Many native
plants have developed resisance to deer browsing and can co-exist
with the deer.  The issue of invasive ornamentals is important and
can have as much adverse effect on native areas as just plain
developing.

For a classic example-we have a local mountain we ride and hike on.
 People have been building some houses on parts of it.  Growing on
the upper slopes is a native creeping sage that is fire resisitant,
holds the soil, drought and cold tolerant, has flowers for
hummingbirds and seeds for songbirds.  Really a wonderful native
plant.  A lady was planting  her bank that had been cut with the
grader with English ivy.  the ivy, if it grows will spread and choke
out native species and provide NO HABITAT VALUE OR FOOD.  She could
be using the native groundcover.  This just seems like total
ignorance to me.

I don't consider myself a radical.  Many people are concerned by
this-enough that a bill prohibitin the sale of invasive exotics went
before the calif. legislature.  If you drive several hours to Pt.
Reyes to see the wildflowers in the spring, how will you feel if
they are gone, to be replaces by African Daisy or Vinca?

And, I think there are more people who selfishly move to the country
to "get away from it all" , then totally alter this country with
their domestic plants, cats and dogs.

Karen


From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!morrow.stanford.edu!morrow.stanford.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar 15 23:49:10 EST 1994
Article: 8065 of misc.rural
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From: GC.SUL@forsythe.stanford.edu (Sullys Maze)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: re: invasive exotics
Date: 15 Mar 1994 08:45:49 -0800
Organization: Stanford University
Lines: 92
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NNTP-Posting-Host: morrow.stanford.edu


    : af017@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David R. Smith) writes:
Subject: Re: escaped exotics



I would like to comment on Karen's advocacy of native plants
and aversion to imported species.
I am also a concerned environmentalist and have spent some
time in the Bay area as well, in California.
I have enjoyed visiting areas which are kept as special
conserving parks, etc. for native plants only.
However, there is a broader view of the environment.
And that is that development and population is literally
aving the land, obviously killing all plants in the
process in the U.S. at something like 200 acres per hour
when averaged nationwide.
Further, when one wants to return a bit of natural land
to native plants only it is very labor intensive and a
slow process indeed.
Thus while such a battle is pursued to preserve native
species over imported ones, the land itself is disappearing
completely to building and freeways etc.
It is a question of perspective.
If I want to reclaim a hundred acre parcel that used to
be a storage yard for some factory I could spend ten
years trying to establish a native plant ecology that
existed millennia ago or I could plant fast growing plants
to restore it as quickly as possible against the ever
present onslaught of development all around it.
To me the choice is clear.
Another brief point of course is that in farming discussions
one is mostly talking about planting contrary to a native
primitive ecology (except for certain radical schools
such as permaculture from Australia, no-till, the one-
straw-revolution method from Japan, etc.).
I am most concerned about North America becoming a big
parking lot, still I enjoy and respect areas which are
preserved for native species.
David Smith
--

--------------------
Hi David.  I don't consider myself an "environmental whacko" as
someone called me, just want folks to THINK first before they dig a
hold and put a plant in the ground.  I don't really understand your
point about replanting the hundred acre parcel with fast growing
plants versus natives.  How would fast growing non-native plants
restore it or protect it from development?  Yes, you could plant
lawn and fast growing trees and shrubs and have something like a
gold course or park.  You would have a "green" area that people and
kids could enjoy.  YOu might support some bird life.  You would
also have a totally artificial environment.

Since this is misc.rural I think it appropriate to discuss this.
Think about how many people-kids especially-who grow up in suburbs,
spend leisure time at malls, theme parks, and other places that are
totally man-made. I don't understand why people who want to move
away from all this to RURAL areas want to then change the rural
areas to man-made ones.  I am not discussing agriculture which is a
different issue.  I am talking about people who move out to rural
areas and then LANDSCAPE with non-native plants. Planting the things
they were used to in the cities, andnot even trying to educate
themselves to the native flora.  These people who struggle with
their roses and the deer eating them are laughable.  Many native
plants have developed resisance to deer browsing and can co-exist
with the deer.  The issue of invasive ornamentals is important and
can have as much adverse effect on native areas as just plain
developing.

For a classic example-we have a local mountain we ride and hike on.
 People have been building some houses on parts of it.  Growing on
the upper slopes is a native creeping sage that is fire resisitant,
holds the soil, drought and cold tolerant, has flowers for
hummingbirds and seeds for songbirds.  Really a wonderful native
plant.  A lady was planting  her bank that had been cut with the
grader with English ivy.  the ivy, if it grows will spread and choke
out native species and provide NO HABITAT VALUE OR FOOD.  She could
be using the native groundcover.  This just seems like total
ignorance to me.

I don't consider myself a radical.  Many people are concerned by
this-enough that a bill prohibitin the sale of invasive exotics went
before the calif. legislature.  If you drive several hours to Pt.
Reyes to see the wildflowers in the spring, how will you feel if
they are gone, to be replaces by African Daisy or Vinca?

And, I think there are more people who selfishly move to the country
to "get away from it all" , then totally alter this country with
their domestic plants, cats and dogs.

Karen


From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!morrow.stanford.edu!morrow.stanford.edu!not-for-mail Tue Mar 15 23:50:39 EST 1994
Article: 8066 of misc.rural
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From: GC.SUL@forsythe.stanford.edu (Sullys Maze)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Native plants that attract wildlife
Date: 15 Mar 1994 09:04:42 -0800
Organization: Stanford University
Lines: 145
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NNTP-Posting-Host: morrow.stanford.edu


Okay, here I will post some information that may be useful. This is
mostly applicable to Calif.


         NATIVE PLANTS THAT PROVIDE WILDLIFE HABITAT

Unless mentioned otherwise, the following lists are regarding the
value of the seed, fruit or berry of the plant mentioned
When Hummingbirds are mentioned, its the flower that has the nectar

TREES

Acer macrophyllum BIG-LEAF MAPLE Goldfinches, Bees, Raccoons
Aesculus californica CALIFORNICA BUCKEYE Hummingbirds
Alnus rhoombifolia WHITE ALDER Warblers, Goldfinches, Pine Siskins
  Cedar Waxwings
Cornus nuttallii PACIFIC DOGWOOD Western Tanagers, Warblers, robins,
  Thrushes, Woodpeckers, Tree Swallows, many others
Cupressus Governiana GOWEN'S CYPRESS Thrushes, Mockingbirds, Pigeons
  Opossums, Coyotes
Juglans Hindsii BLACK WALNUT Jays, Pigeons, Squirrels
Lithocarpus densiflora TANBARK OAK Jays, Meadowlarks, Pheasants,
  Pigeons, Titmice, Thrashers, Quail, Woodpeckers, Rabbits, Raccoons
  Squirrels, Mice, Foxes
Pinus attenuata KNOBCONE PINE Chickadees, Doves, Finches, Jays,
  Sparrows, Rabbits, Squirrels
Platanus racemosa CALIFORNIA SYCAMORE Goldfinches, Cedar Waxwings,
  House, Purple finches, Pine Siskins, Red-Tailed Hawks, Woodpeckers
Populus fremontii FREMONT'S COTTONWOOD Foxes, Squirrels, Mice
Populus tremuloides QUAKING ASPEN Rabbits, Deer, Grouse, Opossum
Populus trichocarpa BLACK COTTONWOOD same, hairs on seeds used in
 nesting materials
Pseudotsuga menziesii DOUGLAS FIR Deer, Squirrels, Woodrats
Quercus OAKS All species of oaks valuable to: Mallard, Clapper rails
  Wooducks, Pheasants, Jays, Pigeons, Finches, Quail, Thrushes
  Chickadees, Towhees, Grosbeaks, Nuthatches, Raccoons, Foxes
  Also provide shelter, nesting sites and many insects for birds
Sequoia sempervirens COAST REDWOOD Jays, Pigeons, Wrens, Chickadees
Torreya californica CALIFORNIA NUTMEG Squirrels

SHRUBS

Adenostoma fasciculatum CHAMISE Bees, Goldfinches, Grosbeaks,
  Raccoons, Deer, Woodrats, Mice
Amelancher pallida SERVICE BERRY Thrushes, other birds and mammals
Arctostaphylos MANZANITA Excellent for Quail, Doves, Mockingbirds
  Robins, Thrushes, Cedar Waxwings, Grosbeaks, Finches, Towhees,
  Sparrows, Raccons, Skunks, Squirrels, Coyotes, Deer, Hummingbirds
Atriplex lentiformis QUAIL BUSH Quail, Finches, Towhees, Sparrows,
  Rabbits.  Good shelter
Baccharis pilularis COYOTE BRUSH Deer, Butterflies
Berberis nevinii NEVIN'S BARBERRY Quail, Doves, Mockingbirds,
   Robins, Thrushes, Cedar Waswings, Grosbeaks, Finches, Towhees,
   Sparrows Thrashers.  Also good shelter
Calycanthus occidentalis SPICE BUSH Robins, Thrushes, Pheasants
Ceanothus WILD LILAC Quail, Hummingbirds, Bush-Tits, Mockingbirds,ds
  Thrashers, Thrushes, Warblers, Grosbeaks, Finches, Juncos,
  Rabbits, Squirrels, Bees, Butterflies, Hummingbirds
Clematis lasiantha and ligustifolia Hummingbirds
Cercis occidentalis REDBUD Goldfinches and Hummingbirds
Cornus stolonifera CREEK DOGWOOD Mockingbirds, Sparrows, Mourning
  Doves, Cedar Waxwings, Woodpeckers, Pigeons, Raccoons, Deer
Diplacus aurantiacus ORANGE MONKEYFLOWER Hummingbirds
Diplacus puniceus RED BUSH MONKEYFLOWER same
Diplacus longiflorus SOUTHERN MONKEYFLOWER same
Eriogonum fasciculatum CALIFORNIA BUCKWHEAT Oregon Juncos, Towhees,
  Squirrels, Bees, Butterflies
Galvezia speciosa ISLAND SNAPDRAGON Hummingbirds
Gaultheria shallon SALAL Thrashers, Chickadees, Thrushes, Finches
Heteromeles arbutifolia TOYON Cedar Waxwing, Towhees, Quail,
  Mourning Doves, Wrentits, Finches, Robins, Pigeons, Western
  Bluebirds
Isomeris arborea BLADDERPOD Hummingbirds
Lonicera hispidula CALIFORNIA HONEYSUCKLE Finches, Hermit Thrushes,
  Rabbits, Hummingbirds
Lonicera interrupta same
Lonicera involucrata TWINBERRY same
Lupinus albifrons SILVER LUPINE Quail, Squirrels
Mahonia aquifolium OREGON GRAPE Cedar Waxwings, Robins, Pheasants
  Mockingbirds, Finches, Deer.  Good shelter
Myrica californica CALIFORNIA WAX MYRTLE Cedar Waxwings, Chickadees,
  Towhees, Orioles, Wrentits, Warblers
Osmoronia cerasiformis OSO BERRY Mockingbirds, Pigeons
Prunus ilicifolia HOLLYLEAF CHERRY birds, small mammals and deer
Quercus durata LEATHER OAK same
Rhamnus californica CALIFORNICA COFFEEBERRY Pigeons, Jays, Robins,
  Mockingbirds, Thrashers, Cedar Waxwings, Purple Finches
Rhamnus crocea REDBERRY same
Rhamnus ilicifolia HOLLYLEAF REDBERRY same, plus Quail
Rhus integrifolia LEMONADE BERRY Quail, Flickers, Finches, Pheasants
  Juncos, Jays, Mockingbirds, Robins, Thrushes, Finches, Grosbeaks
  Catbirds, Chickadees, Towhees
Rhus ovata SUGARBUSH same
Ribes aureum GOLDEN CURRANT Many birds eat berries, hummingbirds
Ribes californicum CALIFORNICA CURRANT same
Ribes malvaceum CHAPPARAL CURRANT hummingbirds
Ribes menziesii Quail, Thrashers, Robins, Thrushes, Finches, Towhees
Ribes sanguineum RED FLOWERED CURRENT Hummingbirds
Ribes speciosum FUCHSIA FLOWERED GOOSEBERRY same
Rosa californica CALIFORNICA ROSE Pine Siskins. Goldfinches, Quail,
  Thrushes, Pheasants, Raccoons, good nesting sites
Rubus vitifolius WESTERN BLACKBERRY good for fruit and cover
Salix WILLOW Warblers, Thrushes, Fox sparrows, Finches
Salvia clevelandii CLEVELANDS SAGE Hummingbirds, Sparrows
Salvia leucophylla PURPLE SAGE same
Salvia mellifera BLACK SAGE same, also bees and finches
Salvia sonomensis CREEPING SAGE same
Sambucus glauca CALIFORNICA ELDERBERRY Pigeons, Wren-Tits, Mock-
  ingibrds, Finches, Towhees, Robins, Deer
Symphoricarpos albus  SNOWBERRY Hummingibrds, Mockingbirds, Towhees
  Finches, Grosbeaks, Cedar Waxwings, Deer.  Good cover
Trichostemma lanatum WOOLY BLUE CURLS Hummingbirds
Vaccinum ovatum HUCKLEBERRY Pigeons, Mourning Doves, Foxes, Raccoons
  Opossum, Rabbits, Deer
Vitus californica CALIFORNICA WILD GRAPE all birds

PERENNIALS

Aquilegia formosa WESTERN COLUMBINE Hummingbirds, seeds eaten
  by small birds
Aquilegia exima same
Cynoglossum grande WESTERN HOUNDS TOUNGE Hummingbirds
Delphinium cardinale SCARLET LARKSPUR Hummingbirds, Finches
Delphinium nudicale same
Eriogonum species BUCKWHEATS Butterflies, bees
Fragaria californica BEACH STRAWBERRY berries good food source
Heuchera maxima ISLAND ALUM ROOT Hummingbirds
Heuchera macrantha ALUM ROOT same
Iris species seeds eaten by birds
Keckiella corymbosa BUSH PENSTEMON Hummingbirds
Keckiella cordifolia HEARTLEAF PENSTEMON same
Keckiella ternatus SAME
Mimulus cardinalis SCARLET MONKEYFLOWER Hummingbirds
Monardella macrantha MOUNTAIN PENNYROYAL Hummingbirds
Monardella villosa COYOTE MINT Hummingbirds
Penstemon centranthifolious, P. labrosus, P. newberryi, P. barbatus,
  P. clevelandii  Hummingbirds
P. heterophyllus, P. spectablis, P. speciosus, etc. Penstemon seed
  eaten by small birds
Satureja mimuloides Hummingbirds
Wyethia helenoides GRAY MULE EARS seed good for birds and mammals
Zauschineria californica CALIFORNICA FUCHSIA Hummingbirds

For more information contact Karen Sullivan at 279-2868


From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!sgiblab!barrnet.net!nntp.crl.com!crl.crl.com!not-for-mail Wed Mar 16 11:34:08 EST 1994
Article: 8074 of misc.rural
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From: hblacker@crl.com (Hal Blacker)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: WANTED: Property/Housing to Buy for Community
Date: 16 Mar 1994 00:57:29 -0800
Organization: CRL Dialup Internet Access	(415) 705-6060  [login: guest]
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <2m6hlp$hnp@crl.crl.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: crl.com
Summary: Property wanted for intentional community
Keywords: Real property, intentional community, wanted
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]


Property wanted to buy for intentional community of 100-150 people.  An 
older college, boarding school, convent, or hotel would be ideal.  Should 
have structures suitable for living and meeting space.  Fixer-uppers ok.  
Anywhere in U.S. will be considered.

If you know of the availability of such a property, or where I might look 
to find possibilities, please reply, preferably be e-mail.

Any help is greatly appreciated.
 __________________
| Hal Blacker       | Looking for a home...
| hblacker@crl.com  |----------------------------------








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Article: 8078 of misc.rural
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From: sticha@neon11.Berkeley.EDU (David A. Sticha)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Native vs Non Native
Date: 16 Mar 1994 00:39:12 GMT
Organization: Motorola CIG
Lines: 46
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <2m5kfg$i70@delphinium.cig.mot.com>
Reply-To: sticha@neon11.Berkeley.EDU (David A. Sticha)
NNTP-Posting-Host: neon11.rtsg.mot.com

I'm going to insert my $0.02 here.

I am a self described "environmental whacko". I have a large tract which I
am patiently restoring to native species only. I've also spent hundreds of
hours of volunteer time helping restore praries by hand pulling or cutting
noxious weeds, collecting seeds, helping with burns, or more usually on
hands and knees planting hundreds of native seedlings by hand. I've also
served as tour guide through natural areas, attended numerous natural
landscaping courses and seminars, and have tirelessly harangued my friends
for buying invasive non-native species for their landscaping needs. So
much for the credentials.

Now let me say that most of my own landscaping around my home is a mixture
of 75% non-native and 25% native species. Why? Because the non-native
species I've chosen have some characteristic which I determined to be
beneficial or useful. Let's face it, the plant materials sold by nurseries
are culled from the hundreds of thousands available world wide because they
have something outstanding to offer. The same as Europeans who plant
American native goldenrod or flowering dogwood. However, I do draw the
line at very aggressive, or invasive, species. The few cases where I
advocate their use is in areas where their spread can be checked. I remember
well the hours spent controlling vinca by hand pulling in a pretty little
20 acre wooded park which was originally a homestead 125 years ago.

I guess what I'm saying is that I no longer hold the view that all
non-native species are bad. Used with intelligence and moderation for a
specific purpose, they are superior to many native species for landscape
purposes. I used to be very anti non-native, but the turning point came
when I sat in on a natural landscaping course and a little old lady
asked the teacher how to incorporate her prized blue berry bushes into
her design. His answer was "You don't. If you want blue berries in your
landscaping then move somewhere where blue berries are native!"

Again, I believe the "native only" attitude is too extreme. They have their
place. The key is to plan intelligently for all uses that landscaping can be
used for: beauty, maintainability, wildlife, and cost. Then decide based
on those.
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Dave Sticha (sticha@rtsg.mot.com)  'I only work here'
 Motorola Cellular Infrastructure Group - Arlington Heights IL
 "...our laws, our constitutions, our very sacred books, are in the last
 analysis mere paper barriers, which hold only so long as there stand
 behind them men and women with the intelligence to understand and the
 character to maintain them."  Lathrop Stoddard 1922
---------------------------------------------------------------------------


From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!gumby!wupost!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!convex!news.utdallas.edu!corpgate!bnrgate!bnr.co.uk!uknet!pipex!sunic!trane.uninett.no!nac.no!nntp.nta.no!news Wed Mar 16 21:17:22 EST 1994
Article: 8079 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
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From: BARANSKI@VEAMF1.NL.NUWC.NAVY.MIL (Jim Baranski)
Subject: Re: escaped exotics
In-Reply-To: GC.SUL@forsythe.stanford.edu's message of 14 Mar 1994 20:01:57 -0800
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In <2m3bvl$kbv@morrow.stanford.edu> GC.SUL@forsythe.stanford.edu writes:

 Why are these invasive species such a problem?  Native plants form
 the basis for the food chain in California.  They support an
 extremely complex interacton of plant, insect, reptile, rodent, bird
 and animal life.  Native plants provide nectar for hummingbirds and
 beneficial insects; seeds and berries for birds, rodents and
 mammals; and shelter for all animal life.

All other things being equal, I would tend to think that an imported berry
plant that thrives will feed wildlife just as well as a native one.  I can't
exactly understand what all the squacking is about...

On the other hand, I know that diversity is important...

Jim.


From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!emory!hubcap.clemson.edu!hubcap!hubcap Thu Mar 17 10:17:24 EST 1994
Article: 8085 of misc.rural
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From: hubcap@hubcap.clemson.edu (System Janitor)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: Native vs Non Native
Date: 16 Mar 94 18:19:02 GMT
Organization: Clemson University
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <hubcap.763841942@hubcap>
References: <2m5kfg$i70@delphinium.cig.mot.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hubcap.clemson.edu

I am the caretaker for Woodburn Plantation, an old plantation house in
upstate South Carolina. The surrounding woods are an open forest full of old 
trees, giant ravines (not erosion gullys), and the ground is almost 100% 
vinca. I think the woods are one of the most beautiful places I've ever seen.

I recently took up some of the vinca and planted in some woods on the
land I own.

And now I stumble onto this thread. Hmmm, I say, as I pause for thought...

-Mike


From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!sgiblab!news.cs.indiana.edu!noose.ecn.purdue.edu!nettle.ecn.purdue.edu!laird Thu Mar 17 10:18:00 EST 1994
Article: 8086 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: alt.agriculture.misc,misc.rural
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From: laird@nettle.ecn.purdue.edu (Kyler Laird)
Subject: Re: Recruitment of the next generation (was: farm size)
Message-ID: <laird.763844587@nettle.ecn.purdue.edu>
Sender: news@noose.ecn.purdue.edu (USENET news)
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Date: Wed, 16 Mar 1994 19:03:07 GMT
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Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu alt.agriculture.misc:662 misc.rural:8086

>In article <763316832.AA04679@rochgte.fidonet.org>,
>Harold Cheetham <Harold.Cheetham@f601.n2613.z1.fidonet.org> wrote:

>>     i think its time to down size the farm and make it more accessable
>>for young people to get involved in,if we dont do something we want have
>>any young farmers entering the scene and then who will feed this
>>country

Someone interested in making a profit, perhaps?

(Most likely:  someone who can whine well and long enough to get a
sizable handout from our tax dollars.)

--kyler (just another one of those "young people" entering the
	farming scene...)


From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!wupost!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!news2.uunet.ca!scilink!whome!mh!habern Mon Mar 21 15:24:09 EST 1994
Article: 8134 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
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From: habern@maclean-hunter.ca (Nik Habermel)
Subject: Partner in Adenture
Message-ID: <Cn0vy2.F3D@maclean-hunter.ca>
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 16:17:59 GMT
Organization: Maclean Hunter Communications
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I live in Caledon, Ontario, with my wife and no children. I am 37,
work 1 hour away in Toronto at a good job, and dream of homesteading
on the frontier somewhere.

Actually I think I know where somewhere is. My wife, an abuse victim, 
becomes a clam when I talk about adventure. But I need to get out of
this machine we call modern society and re-invent my relationship with
it. It involves adventure and risk as any homesteading project would.
I have researched my options, have a budget and timeline and am searching
for specific site now. I'm half way through my correspondance course
in agriculture as well. It is incredibly doable.

Unfortunately, we are not fed the misc. groups here, so please respond
by email. Your experiences, comments, etc would be most welcome.


From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.ans.net!malgudi.oar.net!news.ysu.edu!yfn.ysu.edu!ao944 Mon Mar 21 15:25:15 EST 1994
Article: 8137 of misc.rural
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From: ao944@yfn.ysu.edu (Jack Decker)
Newsgroups: misc.rural,comp.dcom.telecom.tech
Subject: Re: Phone line extender (radios)
Date: 21 Mar 1994 19:30:41 GMT
Organization: Youngstown State/Youngstown Free-Net
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <2mksl1$n0d@news.ysu.edu>
References: <davidb.764194547@galena>
Reply-To: ao944@yfn.ysu.edu (Jack Decker)
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Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu misc.rural:8137 comp.dcom.telecom.tech:3211


In a previous article, davidb@galena.use.com (David Butler) says:

>I really do not understand what I have here.  We used them as a
>17 mile phone line extender before we got copper lines to the
>mountain-top property we now live on.
>
>The manual calls it a "Model RR-455 Repeater Plus/UHF-FM Repeater"
>  sn 23231 Model RTSU-1
>  sn 23566 Model RTLT-1
>  They are Xtal controlled
>  Ritron's fone number is (317) 846-1201.
>  We bot them new in 1990
>  I have a "Maintenance & Operating Manual"
>	with logic, pcb layout and parts lists included.
>	There are several pages on the theory of operation
>	of the unit.
>  One radio was always used w/AC power, the other radio
>	was always used on a 12volt battery.  
>
>There are two parts to each unit, the main radio with integral
>Duplexer, and a Ritron phone patch: a little box which we plugged the
>telephone; one box for the telco's line, and 17 miles away the
>other box for the instrument.
>
>It is full duplex, and was transparent to use... it was truly just
>a very long telephone line extender, we could make or receive calls.
>
>$750 w/ antenns,  $500 w/o
>
>David Butler (707) 895-2050
>david@use.com

Sorry for the long quote, but I have expanded the distribution of this
thread to include comp.dcom.telecom.tech, where you are more likely to
get a response (the original article was posted to misc.rural only).

What I am wondering is, did you personally have control over both ends
of this device?  In other words, I can understand if one end was located
on the mountain and the other at the serving telephone company, but if
you actually had both units, where was each one located?  Also, did you
have to obtain a license from the Federal Communications Commission in
order to use these, and if so, what band or class of service were you
licensed to use?

I'm not in the market to buy these units, you understand, but I am always
interested in keeping abreast of developments in wireless telephony, and
this is something I've never heard of before, so my curiosity is piqued.

(Note to comp.dcom.telecom.tech readers:  If you reply to this message via
e-mail rather than in the newsgroups, you might want to send a copy to the
original poster (david@use.com).  If you just e-mail the info to me, he
won't get a copy.)

Jack

Jack Decker   |   "What were once options are now mandates!"
ao944@yfn.ysu.edu  (note that's an "o", not a zero!)
Please note:  Some days I get lots of e-mail.  On such days, I read it
all, but don't personally respond to all of it due to lack of time.


From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!neoucom.edu!eff!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!insosf1.infonet.net!usenet Mon Mar 21 15:25:51 EST 1994
Article: 8138 of misc.rural
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From: edwardbarry@ins.infonet.net
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: boer goats
Date: 21 Mar 1994 19:35:33 GMT
Organization: INFOnet - Iowa Network Services, Inc.
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NNTP-Posting-Host: ins.infonet.net

hello
i have just read an article from the Oct. issue of stockmans grass farmer
ooabout boer goats, and i was ll


\Ѝ


From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!sgiblab!munnari.oz.au!news.uwa.edu.au!DENISE.pharm.uwa.edu.au!dcarpenter Tue Mar 22 09:16:48 EST 1994
Article: 8148 of misc.rural
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From: dcarpenter@receptor.pharm.uwa.edu.au (Denise Carpenter)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: beekeeping business for sale
Date: 22 Mar 1994 06:47:47 GMT
Organization: The University of Western Australia
Lines: 31
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NNTP-Posting-Host: denise.pharm.uwa.edu.au

Almost one acre of land with brick and tile residence, aire-conditioned, 
below-ground swimming pool, vernadas three sides, open fire-place.

Internal workshop 16 x 24 with undercover garage for three vehicles plus 24 
x 8 vernada.

Honey factory 50 x 50, truck height floor, external ramp on two sides, 
internal truck bay and all necessary extracting equipment - example, 2 hot 
rooms each of 350 box capacity, uncapper, two spinners, 216 frame extractor 
(Cowan type), wax melters, honey tanks etc.  Heating equipment, boiler, hot 
water system, compressor etc.

Mitsubishi truck with Hiab, long range fuel tanks, tool boxes, radios etc.

4 loads of 96 10 frame hives, all on steel galvanised pallets, spare supers 
and honey pallets.

Nuc boxes, 120 honey drums, water tanks and petrol water pump.

TAE tractor with back blade.

Forestry sites, intro to all private sites.

All welders and woodworking gear in workshop and numerous extras such as 
pollen traps, pollen crusher, various spare equipment.

Ready market for all produce through Swan Settlers Association by way of 
minimum purchase of 500 x $1 shares.

Those genuinely interested phone John Carpenter on (09) 390 5463 or write 
for full details to 10 Zenobia Tce Kelmscott 6111 Western Australia.


From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!usc!yeshua.marcam.com!insosf1.infonet.net!usenet Tue Mar 22 23:29:19 EST 1994
Article: 8158 of misc.rural
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From: edwardbarry@ins.infonet.net
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: goats
Date: 23 Mar 1994 03:31:15 GMT
Organization: INFOnet - Iowa Network Services, Inc.
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Reply-To: edwardbarry@ins.infonet.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: ins.infonet.net

hello
alright, forget about boer goats.
i WOULD like information on large scale goat ranching.. how many goats
per acre vs. cows, marketing, types, management..etc.

presently i raise a few goats selling the wethers for meat or brush,
the does for production or brush also. There is a good market
for butcher goats here, especially at this time of the year (easter).

the local ranches used to be all sheep, but there is no chance to make
a living with sheep now so they have all gone to cows. The ranches
are leased to the highest bidders on a per head fee, so i would like
to know the comparison with cows, sheep.  The land is steep valleys, lots
of brush and logged over pieces that are under utilized by the cows.

also, about buying a large amount of goats to start a production herd.
Does anyone know how I can contact goat ranchers for breeding
stock.

This is just a theory, a seed thought that I am researching, and any input woul
would be great. I presently run my goats on 1200 acres that was sheep, m
now is slowly changing over to cows. The rancher loves having the goats
learas they really cj
as they really clear out the brush, poison oak, thistles, etc. however
there is no chance to develop a full scale operation here.
again, any help would be greatly appreciated.
sarah
(not edward)


From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!sgiblab!cs.uoregon.edu!reuter.cse.ogi.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!bach.seattleu.edu!quick!ole!rwing!beauty!lena Wed Mar 23 08:52:23 EST 1994
Article: 8160 of misc.rural
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From: lena@Happy-Man.com (Galena_Canada)
Newsgroups: misc.rural,rec.gardens
Subject: Dandelions and other Non-Natives
Message-ID: <Cn32Gu.BJw@Happy-Man.com>
Date: 22 Mar 94 20:34:05 GMT
References: <8hW2vJC00iV4I0ms5f@andrew.cmu.edu>
Organization: Happy Man Corp, 4410 Pt Robinson, Vashon, WA 98070 206/463-9399
Lines: 35
Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu misc.rural:8160 rec.gardens:28519

In <8hW2vJC00iV4I0ms5f@andrew.cmu.edu> "John E. Snyder" <js0n+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:

>Actually, I've heard that the dandelion was grown as a food crop.
> . . .
>I've even heard that they were not native, but rather introduced from
>Europe by the early European settlers.  Anybody?

[Well, I'm not *just* "anybody", but... ;-]

Ah, right you are, neighbor John...

Common Dandelion (Taraxacum officinale - see how authoritative I sound
on this, just by quoting Latin? ;-), imported during colonial days as
a potherb (I say by French immigrants, my coworker claims German -
anybody? ;-).

Same with most of the species mentioned by GC.SUL@forsythe.stanford.edu
(Sullys Maze) in the INVASIVE NON-NATIVE PLANTS article a bit earlier
(nice article, by the way).  Mostly early food and medicinal herb imports,
some ornamentals (and Eucalyptus globulus TASMANIAN BLUE GUM had been
intended as a lumber tree -- now that's funny!).

Just for the record, since the original discussion was about hybrid
plantation trees; if you're going to plant a non-native, a sterile
hybrid is certainly the most ecologically conscious way to go. 
Wouldn't you rather the yahoos who brought in the Eucalyptus to
California had planted Austrees instead? ;-)
                                                                      /
             'Lena                                                   //
                                                                    //
           Avalon Farm                   lena@avalon.wa.com        //
          P.O. Box 2226                                           //
        Vashon, WA  98070                  (206) 463-9733        //
                                                                //
=======/=======/=======/=======/=======/=======/=======/=======//


From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!sgiblab!a2i!jayjames Sun Mar 27 10:34:39 EST 1994
Article: 8231 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!sgiblab!a2i!jayjames
From: jayjames@rahul.net (Jay James)
Subject: Parasites!  Read "The Farm Fiasco"
Message-ID: <Cn8ypy.CvD@rahul.net>
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Read "The Farm Fiasco" by Bovard to see how this country is being raped by
farmers and their cronies.  I'm not taking about family farmers either.

Those people are unwitting pawns.  Their mistake was taking the government
at its word and farming, when farming is a game for big boys only.

Read the book.  Like Prago spagetti sauce, "It's In There (tm)".

Cheers,

-- 
Jay James <jayjames@rahul.net>


From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!hp81.prod.aol.net!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Sun Mar 27 10:36:23 EST 1994
Article: 8240 of misc.rural
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From: camelid@aol.com (Camelid)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Llama Faq 1
Date: 26 Mar 1994 02:48:02 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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                            LLAMA FACT SHEET

Background Basics
 
  Llamas are members of the camel (camelid) family.  Camelids originated 
  on the central plains of North America where they lived 40 million 
  years ago.  Three million years ago llama-like animals dispersed to 
  South America.  By the end of the last ice age (10,000-12,000 years 
  ago) camelids were extinct in North America.  Llamas were domesticated 
  from guanacos in the Andean highlands of Peru 4,000-5,000 years ago 
  and are among the oldest domestic animals in the world.  Primarily a 
  beast of burden, they provided native herdsmen with meat, wool for 
  clothing, hide for shelter, pellets for fuel and offerings to their 
  gods.  Today there are an estimated 50,000 llamas in the United 
  States and Canada.

Physical Facts

Life span:          About 20 years
Average height:     45" at shoulder, 5-6' at the head
Average weight:     250-400 lbs.
Average gestation:  350 days

Birth:  A single baby (cria) is normally born, without assistance, 
        from a standing mother during daylight hours.  Twinning is rare.

Babies:  Average birth weight is 18-35 lbs.  Babies are normally up and 
         nursing within 90 minutes.  They are weaned at about 5-6 months.

Reproduction:  Females are first bred at 14-18 months of age.  Llamas do 
               not have a heat cycle but are induced ovulators (ovulation 
               occurs 24-36 hours after breeding).  Thus they can be bred 
               at any time of the year. 
 
Color:  Wool ranges from white to black, with shades of gray, beige, 
        brown, red and roan between.  It may be solid, spotted or marked 
        in an array of patterns.

Health:  Because llamas and their ancestors are specially suited to the 
         harsh environment of their Andean homeland, North American 
         owners will find them remarkably hardy, healthy, easy to care 
         for and virtually disease-free.
   Llamas are environmentally sensitive, intelligent creatures.  Their feet, 
comprised of soft pads with 2 toenails, impact the environment less than 
the boots of an average hiker, yet llamas are strong.  A conditioned 
llama can carry approximately 25% to 30% of its body weight, making a 
llama as strong, if not stronger, than a horse.
   Llamas are great working partners and family pets.  They have predictable, 
calm responses to new situations.  Llamas are trustworthy.  Their 
intelligent, gentle nature allows even small children to interact with 
them.  The fiber of llamas can be spun and woven into sweaters, blankets, 
hats and the like.  Llamas are used in animal facilitative therapy because 
of their calming effects.  Families can get involved with llamas in 4-H, 
Scouts and other youth groups.
   Llamas make excellent guardian animals for sheep herds. They have similar
dietary requirements and will defend the herd from many types of predatory
animals.
   Llamas have discrete bathroom habits.  Their pelleted droppings, similar 
to a deer, are virtually odorless and are generally deposited in the 
communal dung pile.  This neatness minimizes parasite contamination, 
reduces fly problems and makes cleanup easier for the owner.  A llama's 
effective digestive system also helps to eliminate introduction of 
noxious weeds into the environment. These pellets also make a superb
fertilizer for home and garden.



From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!decwrl!world!cosell Sun Mar 27 10:37:41 EST 1994
Article: 8242 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!decwrl!world!cosell
From: bernie@fantasyfarm.com (Bernie Cosell)
Subject: Re: Making the transition from city to country
Message-ID: <A-Oxu*Ec0@fantasyfarm.com>
Sender: cosell@world.std.com (Bernie Cosell)
Organization: Fantasy Farm, Pearisburg, VA
X-Neewsreader: Arn V1.03a
References: <CKwGRIUV.rbmsu6@flashmag.flashmag.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 1994 03:08:20 GMT
Lines: 25

In article <CKwGRIUV.rbmsu6@flashmag.flashmag.com>, Walter Vose Jeffries writes:

} In article <1994Mar23.003641.170@sytek.hernix.org> (ken@sytek.hernix.org), you write:
} > I've developed a seven-year plan to make a transition from an urban-centered
} > life as a computer consultant to a rural-centered life as a generally low-
} > tech family farmer (mostly for self-sufficiency, as much as that dream is
} > possible).

} Suggested reading:

Two 'classics' in this arena are:
  Five Acres and Independence, M.G.Kains, 1935
  Ten Acres Enough, James Miller, 1864
  
the first is subtitled "A Practical Guide to the Selection and Management
of the Small Farm", and the second has the neat [and unbelievably long]
title:
  A Practical Experience showing how a very small farm may be made
   to keep a very large family with Extensive and Profitable Experience
   in the Cultivation of the smaller Fruits.

  /Bernie\
-- 
Bernie Cosell                               bernie@fantasyfarm.com
Fantasy Farm Fibers, Pearisburg, VA         (703) 921-2358


From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!wupost!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.ans.net!hp81.prod.aol.net!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Sun Mar 27 10:43:32 EST 1994
Article: 8248 of misc.rural
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From: camelid@aol.com (Camelid)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Llama faq2 Periodicals
Date: 27 Mar 1994 00:39:04 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Lotta stuff here tell me if you are intersested!

Llamas Magazine
P.O. Box 100
Herald, CA 95638
Subscription: $25.00 for 8 issues/year; $30.00 in Canada; $35 Other Foreign
$45.00 for 16 issues (2 years); $55 in Canada; $65 Other Foreign


Llama Life
2259 County Road 220
Durango, CO  81301-8019
Subscription: $16.00 for 4 issues/year; $26.00 in Canada; $40 Other Foreign

The Llama Link
Drawer 1995
Kalispell, MT  59903-1995
Voluntary Subscription: $12.00 for 12 issues; 
Canada - paid subscription only $24.00 for 12 issues

Backcountry Llama News
2857 Rose Valley Loop
Kelso, WA 98626
$10/year $18/2 years   Canada $12/yr  Foreign  $18yr

Llama Banner
Box 1968
Manhattan, KS  66502
$24/year  (Canada & Mexico add $6/yr)Llama Periodicals:

Llamas Magazine
P.O. Box 100
Herald, CA 95638
Subscription: $25.00 for 8 issues/year; $30.00 in Canada; $35 Other Foreign
$45.00 for 16 issues (2 years); $55 in Canada; $65 Other Foreign

Llama Life
2259 County Road 220
Durango, CO  81301-8019
Subscription: $16.00 for 4 issues/year; $26.00 in Canada; $40 Other Foreign

The Llama Link
Drawer 1995
Kalispell, MT  59903-1995
Voluntary Subscription: $12.00 for 12 issues; 
Canada - paid subscription only $24.00 for 12 issues

Backcountry Llama News
2857 Rose Valley Loop
Kelso, WA 98626
$10/year $18/2 years   Canada $12/yr  Foreign  $18yr

Llama Banner
Box 1968
Manhattan, KS  66502
$24/year  (Canada & Mexico add $6/yr)

Camelids!
An Online electronic journal
To Subscribe Contact: camalid@aol.com



From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!wupost!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!news.unb.ca!upei.ca!peinet.pe.ca!peinet.pe.ca!not-for-mail Sun Mar 27 10:45:33 EST 1994
Article: 8250 of misc.rural
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From: labchuk@bud.peinet.pe.ca (Sharon Labchuk)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: Cluster flies
Date: 27 Mar 1994 01:23:42 -0400
Organization: PEINet, Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island, Canada
Lines: 48
Sender: Sharon Labchuk
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In article <36.1770.559.0N4289AC@gcbb.granite.mn.org> jim.mcnelly@gcbb.granite.mn.org (Jim Mcnelly) writes:
>Subject: Re: Cluster flies

>But insects attacking earthworms is a new one on me.  Worms feed nearly
>everything larger than them it seems, from moles to snakes to amphibians
>to fish to birds to whatever.  They even commit suicide after heavy
>downpours and surface to feed animals, only to build their population
>back up quickly according to the available nutrients in the soil.
>
>There are no known earthworm diseases and they are remarkably immune to
>cancer.  I am sure that if there is an insect that can attack
>earthworms, it is only if the worm is stressed and dying anyway.
>
>Back to the flies.  My daughter has several salamanders in her bedroom
>who have almost escaped.  Perhaps if you put in sod and a pond in
>the middle of the living room, fill it full of amphibians, the fly
>problem would be solved.
>
>Mr Compost~~~
>
>
>Jim~ McNelly
>ReSourceNet and GardenNet 612-654-8372, 656-0678 v.32bis
>jim.mcnelly@granite.mn.org
>---
> * March 25th - A single fact can ruin a good argument everytime!


Actually, this is not an 'urban myth'.  In the book 'Common Sense Pest
Control' by Olkowski, Daar, Olkowski, it is stated:

"In the larval stage,cluster flies are parasitoids of earthworms. Thus, soil
containing many earthworms - for example, large lawn areas containing many
earthworms - are common sources of these flies.  After feeding within the
body of the worm for about 13 days, the flies tunnel out of the carcass and
pupate in the earth.  After emerging from the soil as adults, they seek
mates and lay their fertilized eggs in the soil where earthworm hosts are
likely to encounter them. "

 I've just spent the last 6 years in old farmhouses infested with cluster
flies.  They come indoors in the fall through cracks and stay quietly til
spring.  When it warms up, they try to get outside again to find more
earthworms so they can lay eggs.  They're more of a nuisance than anything. 
I wouldn't recommend contaminating your home with pesticides to get rid of
them - that's only a temporary measure anyway.  Better to seal up openings
into the house and vacuum them.       

      Sharon Labchuk


From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!chpc.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!not-for-mail Fri Apr  1 21:10:22 EST 1994
Article: 8338 of misc.rural
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From: f_griffith@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: newsletter excerpt
Date: 31 Mar 1994 14:10:39 -0600
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--=====================_765148532==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"




--=====================_765148532==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"


Here's an excerpt from the Coping With Turbulent Times
newsletter, Vol.1, No. 2, which I thought some on the list
would be interested in.  Please note copyright at end.
Permission granted to repost electronically through 6/1/94. 


      Physical Preparation

  Planning for Water Supplies.  Water 
is a basic necessity.  We're used to 
turning on the faucet and having water 
flow.  With the many possible circum-
stances under which it wouldn't, pro-
viding for water is important - we can 
last longer without food than we can 
without water.  
  Water can be provided for through 
storing water now when it is available 
or through planning for alternate 
sources not dependent on the city water 
supply.  Obviously, these ways are not 
mutually exclusive - you probably want 
to implement both.
  Storing water.  What can you store 
water in?  Many people have used gallon 
plastic milk jugs - the handles made 
them especially convenient.  Some of 
the currently manufactured ones may 
degrade fast enough that this won't be 
satisfactory now.  Containers that 
chlorine bleach came in can be used, 
but other household product containers 
shouldn't be.  Two liter soft drink 
bottles with screw on lids serve well 
and are a handy size.  Plastic buckets 
with tight fitting lids are another 
possibility.  If you get used ones, be 
sure that only foods (e.g. pickles) 
have been in them before.  Some people 
suggest adding chlorine or iodine as 
you fill the bottles.  This seems 
hardly necessary if you are using city 
water, which is already chlorinated.  
You may want to purify the water when 
it's time to use it anyway (see discus-
sion of water purification below).  
  Your water heater holds a considera-
ble amount of water.  This may be 
accessible in an emergency through a 
drain valve at the bottom of it.  Water 
in swimming pools or water beds is not 
drinkable but would be usable for other 
purposes.  A one way valve on your 
incoming water line will retain the 
water in your pipes even if the water 
mains are broken.
  Planning for water storage.  Planning 
for your water storage starts with 
deciding the emergencies you want to be 
prepared for.  This determines the 
length of time your stored water must 
last.  An often cited rule of thumb is 
to have two gallons per person per day 
for the period you want to be prepared 
for.
  Alternate sources.  It is not all 
that practical for most of us to store 
enough water to last for many weeks.  
You need to think of alternate sources.  
If your water system shut down, where 
would you get water?  Are there streams 
or ponds nearby?.  Collecting rainwater 
may be possible, at least as a supple-
mentary source, depending on the regu-
larity of rainfall in your area.
  The water you get from natural 
sources is not likely to be pure enough 
to drink.  What sort of treatment or 
purification process would you be able 
to use for it?  Boiling it for 15-20 
minutes is one of the simplest forms of 
treatment and will kill any dangerous 
bacteria.   Chlorine treatment is 
another possibility.  4-5 drops of 
household chlorine bleach per quart 
serve as a good disinfectant.  (You can 
also use Halazone tablets, but they 
don't store well.)  Let the water stand 
for 30 minutes after adding the chlo-
rine.  Iodine based purification tab-
lets are available.  An alternative is 
to add 5-10 drops of tincture of iodine 
per quart of water and let it stand 15-
30 minutes.  If you are planning to use 
any of the chemical treatments, you 
need to keep a relatively fresh supply 
of the treatment agent on hand.  The 
water purification tablets you bought 
four or five years ago won't do the job 
now.  (Iodine tablets last somewhat 
longer than the other kinds.)
  Even after treating the water as 
suggested above, filtering it and 
aerating it is a good idea.  There may 
be contaminants that treatment won't 
get rid of but a filter will.   Aerat-
ing it will improve the taste.  This is 
done by pouring the water back and 
forth between containers to mix air 
back in it.
  Sewage disposal.  You need to consid-


Coping With Turbulent Times, Vol.1,No.2
            Contents

The Economy
  Economic Outlook.................p1
  Being Your Own Economist/pt2......2
Our Turbulent Times
  Clinton as Fascist................4
  Secession.........................4
  Global Warming....................4
Thinking About the Times............5
  Media Bias........................5
Finances
  Personal Financial Statement/pt2..5
Physical Preparation
  Planning for Water Supplies.......6 
Working With Others  
  Groups............................7
Question Box
  Cashless Society?.................8
Resources
  Another Newsletter................8
  Book Review.......................8
Notes from the Editor...............8

Coping with Turbulent Times newsletter 
is published by Individual Investors 
Institute, Box 4630 SFA Sta., Nacog-
doches, TX  75961. Reynolds Griffith, 
Ph.D., C.F.A., Editor. Its theme, as 
may be evident from the title, is that 
the times we live in bring many prob-
lems and that there are lots of things 
we can do to be better prepared to meet 
them.  Subscriptions are $5.00 for four 
issues.  Single copies are $1.00 plus a 
long SASE.  Copyright (c) 1994 by III.


--=====================_765148532==_--



From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!bnrgate!nott!torn!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!ringer!lonestar.utsa.edu!ppowell Sat Apr  2 20:27:27 EST 1994
Article: 8369 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
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From: ppowell@lonestar.utsa.edu (P. K. Powell   )
Subject: Small-scale dairy goat farm
Message-ID: <1994Apr2.195215.23105@ringer.cs.utsa.edu>
Keywords: dairy goat, goat milk, milking
Sender: news@ringer.cs.utsa.edu
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Organization: University of Texas at San Antonio
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 1994 19:52:15 GMT
Lines: 86

I kept dairy goats for years while growing children, but am
not doing either anymore.  The children are grown and I miss
the goats (but not the 2Xdaily milking 365 days a year).

Mary Matejka asked about dairy goats:

1.  If you plan to mil, find a dairy goat herd and talk to
    the owner/breeder.  Buy your stock there.  The breeder
    will probably gladly answer your questions about
    management.  Learn about goat udders and teats.  Buy the
    best stock you can.  Consider buying at least one doe
    already pregnany by the breeder's buck that has the 
    breeding you will want in your flock.  A knowledgeable
    breeder will guide you.  Keeping your own buck is a   
    separate economic venture.  It is sometimes necessary,
    because new goats must always be quarantined in separate
    pens for a while, thus you can't very easily just
    *borrow* buck service during breeding season.

2.  Goats are browsers not grazers.  Goat fencing is
    expensive, therefore most dairy goatkeepers limit the
    pens, therefore herd size.  During Winter and early
    Spring browse is diminished in most areas, thus feed is
    supplemented.

3.  Neighbors eat only 4-6 mo. old kids?  Castrated males
    (wethers) are meatier, and tender enough, if exercise (and 
    NO medicated feed) is limited for a period, say 10 days or 
    more, prior to butchering.  If your herd is not under pressure
    from, say dogs, they're probably tender enough, anyway.  A
    reason to eat young kids may be beed/browse/fence economics.

4.  Mature bucks in *rut*:  Just like whitetail deer, does
    control rut.  They come into estrus with the advance of
    cool Autumn weather, which cues the buck.  Estrus
    continues through Spring unless the doe is successfully
    bred.  Any doe which does not breed during this time
    period should probably be culled.  If you've spent mucho
    $ on a registered doe, check with your vet, AND the
    breeder from whom she was purchased.

    Bucks have a number of musk//scent glands, including those
    up by their horns.  They like to spread this stuff all 
    over their bodies, and *anything* else they can.  Dairy
    goat bucks are penned spearately in an enclosure that 
    does not come in contact with a doe to be milked, because
    that stinkystuff penetrates.  Some does have some musk
    glands also; if she is strong-smelling, she is not a
    candidate for milking for human consumption, and her
    offspring will carry genes for those glands.

5.  Milking only once daily:  A good doe milks about 1 gallon
    daily, and she should be fed sweet feed mix during milking. 
    The example (good management) of penning her kid(s) 
    separately in the evening, and let them stay with the doe
    after milking works well to keep your production and 
    bottle-feeding labor down.  I milked two does, because I 
    needed more milk.  Each doe is milked about 9 months of the
    year, then rested 3 months during later gestation.  By
    staggering doe breeding to one bred early-season, one
    late-season, I kept a minimum of 1 gallon daily, year-round. 
    You will probably not like store-bought cow milk for 3 months
    after drinking rich, fresh goatmilk.  If you only bought 1 doe
    to try this, and agreed with MHO, you could then buy a second
    doe the second year.

    I had a centrifugal cream separator, a goat's butterfat doesn't
    separate out like cow's.  During the high-production, late Spring
    through Summer months, we had white butter, various hard and soft
    cheeses, cream cheese, cultured sour cream, and yoghurt.  Separators
    are hard to find.  New ones cost big$ and shipping time is very
    long, last I knew.

Access your local library system for books about dairy goats.  Your
county/state extension agent and veterinarian may be helpful.
However, often information has to be extrapolated from (1) dairy
science and (2) sheephusbandry references.  Again, the breeder from
whom you purchase stock is probably the best person to help you with
goatkeeping for your area.  I like to think *goat people* are the
finest in the world, although you CAN find jerks everywhere.

If I can help answer any other questions, just ask, here or EMail to 
Kaye, either ppowell@lonestar.utsa.edu or kaye.powell@jtbbs.com.
 

    


From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.concert.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!torn!nermal.cs.uoguelph.ca!herman.cs.uoguelph.ca!bapgar Mon Apr  4 23:00:29 EDT 1994
Article: 8370 of misc.rural
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From: bapgar@uoguelph.ca (Bill Apgar)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: information about gorse
Date: 3 Apr 1994 21:40:39 GMT
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X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]


Have any of you any information to share about a plant called "gorse?"

Gorse (Ulex europaeus, U.gallii, U. minor), also known as furze
or whin, covers vast heathland arfeas in Great Britain and Ireland.

"In Europe U. europaeus is sometimes cultivated for for cattle
bedding, hedges to enclose livestock, and for fodder, however,
it is not widely used as fodder because of its spiny nature and
alkaloid content.  It was introduced into Hawaii and various South
Pacific areas for use as a 'living fence.' It is not uncommon for
plants to escape and bexome a nuisance difficult to eradicate.

"U. europaeus occurs along the coastal srtips of the North Atlantic
and North Pacific United States, where is serves as a sandy soil
binder.  In addition to its tendency to form an impenetrable barrier
under good growth conditions, gorse is highly inflammable and burns
with explosive force.

"The town of Bandon, Oregon owed its destruction by fire in 1936
to gorse that had been featured as an ornamental by the early
inhabitants (Holbrook 1936).  Sparks from a nearby forest fire
ignited the gorse along the streets and in fields adjoining the
town.  The town of 1800 people was destroyed in less than 5 hours."

"Recent (?) studies confirm the presence of anagyrine and cytisine
in plant parts of 3 species."

----

I would like some information about Bandon, Oregon (which is a
coastal town), and in particular any history of the fire, and if
there is any mention of the the use of gorse as an ornamental, 
something about that as well.

I presume that this plant has a bloom -- and I would like a
description (color, petal number and arrangement structure of
thorns.) 

Some additional information follows.  If you have any linkages
(folklore, placenames, anecdotes, etc.) these would also be
valuable to me.  Plant chemistry (effects on people, animals)
info would also be appreciated.

======

gorse. AS. gorst (still as surname); cogn. with Ger. gerste,
barley and L. hordeum. The bush of Mark, xii. 26 is rendered
by AS. gorstbeam.       from 'An  Etymological Dictionary of
Modern English,' by Ernest Weekley.

-------
The following citations from 'The Penguin Dictionary of
Surnames,' by Basil Cottle.

Fursdon  L 'furzy hill' OE; place in Cornwall.

Furse(man),  Furze(man), L 'one who lives in a furzy land'
OE; place in Cornwall. Furse and Furze  found early and
currently in Devon.

Fursey, L 'furzy enclosure (see Hay)' OE. Found early in
Dorset, just as Forsey is now.


-------
Following citation from 'A Field Guide to Wildflowers,' by
Roger Tory Peterson and Margaret McKenny, (p. 154),
The Peterson Field Guide Series.

PEALIKE FLOWERS; MISCELLANEOUS LEAVES  - PEA FAMILY
(Leguminosae)

GORSE, FURZE, Alien
Ulex europaeus 

A dense, spiny, evergreen bush or shrub. Stems furrowed,
leaves replaced by rigid spines. Flowers (1/2 to 2/3 in.)
showy. 2-6 ft. Sandy soil; an escape from cultivation.



From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.concert.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!darwin.sura.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!roper.uwyo.edu!roper.uwyo.edu!nntp Mon Apr  4 23:00:47 EDT 1994
Article: 8372 of misc.rural
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Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: information about gorse
Message-ID: <1994Apr3.172108.1709@roper.uwyo.edu>
From: bentpole@UWYO.EDU (The no-till man!)
Date: 3 Apr 94 17:21:08 MST
Reply-To: bentpole@UWYO.EDU
References: <2nnd4n$8c6@nermal.cs.uoguelph.ca>
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Lines: 43

In article <2nnd4n$8c6@nermal.cs.uoguelph.ca>, bapgar@uoguelph.ca (Bill Apgar) 
writes:

>Have any of you any information to share about a plant called "gorse?"
>
>Gorse (Ulex europaeus, U.gallii, U. minor), also known as furze
>or whin, covers vast heathland arfeas in Great Britain and Ireland.
>
>"In Europe U. europaeus is sometimes cultivated for for cattle
>bedding, hedges to enclose livestock, and for fodder, however,
>it is not widely used as fodder because of its spiny nature and
>alkaloid content.  It was introduced into Hawaii and various South
>Pacific areas for use as a 'living fence.' It is not uncommon for
>plants to escape and bexome a nuisance difficult to eradicate.
>
>"U. europaeus occurs along the coastal srtips of the North Atlantic
>and North Pacific United States, where is serves as a sandy soil
>binder.  In addition to its tendency to form an impenetrable barrier
>under good growth conditions, gorse is highly inflammable and burns
>with explosive force.
>
>I presume that this plant has a bloom -- and I would like a
>description (color, petal number and arrangement structure of
>thorns.) 
>
>Some additional information follows.  If you have any linkages
>(folklore, placenames, anecdotes, etc.) these would also be
>valuable to me.  Plant chemistry (effects on people, animals)
>info would also be appreciated.

I believe Gorse is found up in Mendocino County in California. It has an orange
bloom in May, June and it is very thorny with a structure somewhat like a
briar. At the moment, a program is going on to erradicate this plant, as it is
found to be a problem when trying to preserve the native vegetation in the
area. 
The National Park Service, USDA, and Bureau of Land Mangement might be a good
place to find out more. Hope I was able to help.
	
	Mr. Oddball, co-owner of "Oddball Farm" and "Oddball Publishing"
	----------------------------------------------------------------
	Bentpole Bennie  | "Wanton owner of the Snapple Beverage Co. and 
        Bentpole@uwyo.edu|  three hundred acres of old growth forest."
	                   


From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!torn!news.unb.ca!upei.ca!peinet.pe.ca!peinet.pe.ca!not-for-mail Sun Apr 10 12:33:16 EDT 1994
Article: 8461 of misc.rural
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From: labchuk@bud.peinet.pe.ca (Sharon Labchuk)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Alternative to Creosote
Date: 9 Apr 1994 01:03:28 -0400
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Mix 750 mL, 30 mL paraffin wax with enough mineral spirits or turpentine to
make 4 litres.

Dip the wood into the mixture for a few minutes or apply with a brush.  Let
dry a few days before painting.

This is a US Dept of Agriculture recipe - supposed to protect for 20 years.


Sharon Labchuk
labchuk@peinet.pe.ca 


From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ncar!uchinews!apollo!orion.it.luc.edu!jmcnult Sun Apr 10 12:33:41 EDT 1994
Article: 8463 of misc.rural
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From: jmcnult@orion.it.luc.edu (John A. Mcnulty)
Newsgroups: alt.agriculture.misc,misc.rural
Subject: Re: Cooperative Extension Service
Followup-To: alt.agriculture.misc,misc.rural
Date: 9 Apr 1994 01:01:28 GMT
Organization: Loyola University of Chicago
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John Adamson (jadamson@taex003n.tamu.edu) wrote:

: well they're being addressed may be another question entirely.  I think 
: bureaucracy is certainly a part of the problem, but what concerns me is the 
: viewpoint I often encounter which goes something like this:  "We're 
: educators, not businessmen, so therefore we shouldn't be expected to try to 
: adhere to the same standards of efficiency as business organizations."  
: Needless to say, taxpayers increasingly find that to be an arrogant (and 
: unacceptable) viewpoint.  (snip)

I have been pretty unhappy with the CES in metro Chicago for a number of
reasons, but "bureaucracy" and "arrogance" covers most of it. The 
"educators" are blaming the lack of office "administrators" in addition
to a lack of secretarial support. Yet I have never heard of a college
biology professor with a staff like these people have...and professors
teach classes all year, write their own grant proposals and research
publications, write and grade their own exams, and do their own research.
I have been met with complete incompetence every time I try to get
something done with the CES. It took me 3 years just to get into the
Master Gardener course ("lost" applications) and it took a year to
get the stupid visor I ordered.  Then these "educators" stand up in
front of us with permanent smiles on their faces and get downright
hostile (smiles intact) when the volunteers challenge poorly written
(and downright erroneous) exam questions. They "train" us, we go out
and do their work. 

I have no other firsthand experience with government funded university
programs; my B.S., M.S., and Ph.D. are from private universities.
Is this how public universities operate in general, or is the CES
in a class of its own? 

Patty, not John or his employer


From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!samba.oit.unc.edu!not-for-mail Sun Apr 10 12:34:31 EDT 1994
Article: 8464 of misc.rural
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!samba.oit.unc.edu!not-for-mail
From: Linda.Price@launchpad.unc.edu (linda price)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: Alternative to creosote?
Date: 9 Apr 1994 21:01:47 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina Extended Bulletin Board Service
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <2o753r$8hj@samba.oit.unc.edu>
References: <1994Apr7.221340.127@mixcom.mixcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: lambada.oit.unc.edu

In article <1994Apr7.221340.127@mixcom.mixcom.com> iiggii@mixcom.mixcom.com (Hank Ausse) writes:
> From: ub795@freenet.Victoria.BC.CA (David Kuyper)
> Subject: Alternative to creosote?
>
>> Just wondering if anyone out there knew of any environmentally benign
>> alternatives to creosote for treating fence posts.
>
>Yes, it's called steel fence posts...
>     
>-- 
Plastic fenceposts, made from recycled milk jugs and other household items
are available in many areas now.  Plastic posts and dimension "lumber" won't
rot or rust.  

Linda Price


--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!pirates!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!emory!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!csc.ti.com!tilde.csc.ti.com!news.add.itg.ti.com!news.add.itg.ti.com!usenet Tue Apr 12 11:19:54 EDT 1994
Article: 8493 of misc.rural
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From: lydia@tarsal.dsg.ti.com (lydia middendorf )
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: neighbors security light
Date: 12 Apr 1994 09:06:41 GMT
Organization: Texas Instruments, Austin, Tx.
Lines: 51
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NNTP-Posting-Host: tarsal.dsg.ti.com




	Is there anything I can do?  I live on the side of a hill
	. I recently got a new neightbor... on the hill
	across from me. (about 1/2 mile on foot about 1/4 mile as
	the crow flys.) Last saturday they put up a street light
	for a security light. This light is BRIGHT! It actually
	casts shadows in my living room. Looking off my front
	porch looks like you are looking into a car, at a distance, with it's
	brights on. Night veiwing of meteor storms is hindered, so is the
	use of my telescope. None of the neighbors on my hill have
	"security" lights- we aall figure it just lets people that
	normally would not know you were there, know you are there. But
	the light is only affecting me. Alas, my enighbors on this hill
	will not be helpful.

	My plan of action:

	write a letter to the people, introducing myself, and welcoming
	them to the area, tell the I am writing because I don;t think they
	realize how bright their light is.....blah blah blah......

	i have a feeling they are just going to tell me tough shit, because
	of the expense they have gone to to put it up.	I have no money to
	drag this to court (and probably would not win anyway as there are
	no laws against lighting up the universe)....I was going to
	send my letter registered, return recipt requested. If they
	tell me to get screwed then I was going to get a lawyer to write them a
	letter.....unfortuantly, this is as far as I would be able
	to take it.

	Any suggestions? Anyone had this problem before? How did you handle
	it? Is it pointless to have a lawyer write a letter?


	Should I just write a letter first, and if I get no response send
	it registered?

	I would just go over and speak to them first, but they don't live there,
	there is no house. Nothing, just a security light. (I imagine they
	are going to build)....I will need  to find out who these
	people are and where to write them.  Please don't tell me to
	keep my blinds closed, I feel I should be able to enjoy the
	night. After all, I did not build my house with it poining at
	their light, they put their light shining into my house.


	Regards;
	lydia@tarsal.dsg.ti.com



From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oncolpc09.med.unc.edu!user Tue Apr 12 11:19:59 EDT 1994
Article: 8495 of misc.rural
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oncolpc09.med.unc.edu!user
From: johnstoc@unc.med.edu (Charlie Johnston)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: neighbors security light
Followup-To: misc.rural
Date: 12 Apr 1994 11:42:03 GMT
Organization: Bone Marrow Transplant
Lines: 37
Distribution: usa
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In article <2odob1INNeva@boa.add.itg.ti.com>, lydia@tarsal.dsg.ti.com
(lydia middendorf ) wrote:

(parts deleted)

> 	I recently got a new neightbor....they put up a street light
> 	for a security light. This light is BRIGHT! It actually
> 	casts shadows in my living room. 
> 	I would just go over and speak to them first, but they don't live there,
> 	there is no house. Nothing, just a security light. (I imagine they
> 	are going to build)....
> 
> 	Regards;
> 	lydia@tarsal.dsg.ti.com

It's hard to say without knowing more specific info (see questions below)
but I would definitely try to avoid the gonna-get-lawyers-involved
approach.  Whoever these folks are they are going to be new to this locale,
hence looking for "friendly neighbors".  Once construction commences, you
might "happen by" and ease into discussing the light (after mentioning the
star viewing, etc) - although I realize it can be *extremely* annoying in
the meantime.  If you *have* to do something *now* maybe a politely worded
note taped to the light pole would be a start.  Another idea might be to
invite them down, either directly or 'socially', *at night* where they can
see their light pollution first-hand.  They probably don't
realize...although they may not care.

Several questions...

Is the light going to be a permanent fixture or is it just for
construction-site security (ie. temporary)?

Is the light shining in *your* direction necessary for *their*
illumination, ie. would a partial shield over the light be a possible
solution?

...charlie


From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!caen!zip.eecs.umich.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!gatech!news.ans.net!hp81.prod.aol.net!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Mon Apr 18 17:56:12 EDT 1994
Article: 8570 of misc.rural
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From: geok@aol.com (GeoK)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: water reservoir liner, cheapest
Date: 10 Apr 1994 08:33:05 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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In article <CLC6MG.H9@freenet.carleton.ca>, af017@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David R.
Smith) writes:

<... I am looking at soil cement next.

I've heard that bentonite is used to seal ponds. The procedure described
involved truckloads of the stuff pushed around with a dozer, but , having used
bentonite to fine home-made beer, I wonder if it's settling action might not
work to accomplish the same purpose if you suspended it in the water. Perhaps
it would even be drawn into the leaks like automotive radiator stopleak!


From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!caen!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!panix!ddsw1!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!insosf1.infonet.net!usenet Mon Apr 18 17:57:24 EDT 1994
Article: 8522 of misc.rural
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From: edwardbarry@ins.infonet.net
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: co-housing
Date: 8 Apr 1994 17:06:55 GMT
Organization: INS Info Services, Des Moines, IA USA
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <2o42vf$5mh@insosf1.infonet.net>
References: <16F91BF89.S858002@UMSLVMA.UMSL.EDU>
Reply-To: edwardbarry@ins.infonet.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: ins.infonet.net

In article <16F91BF89.S858002@UMSLVMA.UMSL.EDU>, S858002@UMSLVMA.UMSL.EDU writes:
>Sorry about the "test".  I'm not very good at this.  Has anyone out there tried
>this co-housing stuff.  It sounds like a good idea, but I can see where there
>might be some problems.  What's your experience?. Thanks.


hello
i lived on a communal farm in Washington for a year where i learned not
only alot of farm skills but mostly about social living and community
structure.
valuable lessons
1. competition is a good thing. the garden would have been alot more productive
if it had been divided up, each taking a certain area, or plant type or season
One person doing a whole section of farm life leads to resentment on the part
of all, alot of "well I wouldn't have done it THAT way"
2. someone has to be the decision maker. on our farm the owners were the final
decision makers and there was no two ways about that. whether we all thought
it was good or not. we could give input and discussion, but in the end, they
had the final say so and after that it was done.
3. private space. everyone needs their own space, safe from others.to put
your stuff, to not be bothered for a while, just to be. without it, like
rats, the nit picking gets out of hand.
4.communication. meetings , preferably mediated by someone out of the 
situation, on a regular basis. to figure out projects, direction, personal
conflicts.

that's what comes to the top of my head about the experience most often.
it was a great thing to do, but i wouldn's do it now.
a great book about communal or group living (from the early 70's) called
Getting Back Together where a fellow travels the country staying in
different living situations with groups of people. they are all quite
different from each other!

if i think of more that was important, i might reply if this thread continues
or
if anyone cares!
sarah



From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!ames!purdue!news.cs.indiana.edu!nstn.ns.ca!coranto.ucs.mun.ca!upei.ca!peinet.pe.ca!peinet.pe.ca!not-for-mail Mon Apr 18 18:00:31 EDT 1994
Article: 8487 of misc.rural
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From: labchuk@bud.peinet.pe.ca (Sharon Labchuk)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: Alternative to Creosote
Date: 12 Apr 1994 00:44:57 -0400
Organization: PEINet, Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island, Canada
Lines: 10
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <2od5fp$pn4@bud.peinet.pe.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bud.peinet.pe.ca

Oops........ In a previous posting, I gave a recipe for an alternative to cre
sote - this is how it should have read:

Mix 750 mL exterior varnish, 30 mL paraffin wax (melted) and enough mineral
spirits
or turpentine to make 4 litres.

Dip the wood into the mixture for a few minutes or apply with a brush.  Let
dry a few days before painting.



From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!darwin.sura.net!howland.reston.ans.net!noc.near.net!news.delphi.com!dhughson Mon Apr 18 18:02:19 EDT 1994
Article: 8625 of misc.rural
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!darwin.sura.net!howland.reston.ans.net!noc.near.net!news.delphi.com!dhughson
From: dhughson@delphi.com (Dean Hughson)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: a way to connect in the rural areas
Date: 13 Apr 1994 15:28:52 GMT
Organization: Delphi Internet Services Corporation
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <9404131124596.DLITE.dhughson@delphi.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: delphi.com
X-To: Dean Hughson <dhughson@delphi.com>

For some of you out there, you may remember that I have been working on
rural access to internet for libraries and schools.  I have recently
discovered an economical way to receive usenet/internet email feeds and am
sharing it with others who may want to explore it as a way to give internet
services to your users.

Page-Sat Inc. 992 San Antonio Road, Palo Alto, Ca 94303, telephone
415-424-0384, fax 415-424-0405, email  info@pagsat.net         
Person I talk to is Duane Dubay

The PageSat company has devised a satellite dish system with software,
including windows based or dos, which will allow you to get total usenet
feeds plus internet email.  The cost for the equipment and the first years
service is $1055 until May 15, 1994.  After the first years service, it
costs $30/month for the feeds.  It is also possible to get all of the
fidonet feeds.  They are also devising a way for you to do the replies,etc.
back through their system by dial up---other wise you can just use a service
like delphi/cris,etc. and forward the mailbox there to your PageSat domain.
Most of these systems have been sold to BBS's but after I learned about it I
ordered one so that my town of 886 people will have economical ways to
access the information.

Why I am excited about this system is that it offers rural communities, like
mine, to get the usenet feeds and email and you even set up your own domain.
 It would be possible for you to offer email addresses to all of your local
people for free.

With telephone long distance charges being a major problem for most small
town schools and libraries I am very excited about the possibility of these
advances in technology.  Our job as small town volunteers or library/school
staff is to get the access to the information to our people.  I would be
happy to provide any information or help to others who would like to know
how to get internet access into their community, rural or not.

Dean Hughson, community volunteer
101 S. Main
Braymer Mo 64624
Telephone 816-645-2155
fax 816-645-2198
internet    dhughson@delphi.com



From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!jobone!lynx.unm.edu!mtv.acsys.com!cnn.acsys.com!not-for-mail Wed May  4 11:11:53 EDT 1994
Article: 8752 of misc.rural
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From: sims@usa.acsys.com (Dave Sims)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Earthships
Followup-To: misc.rural
Date: 25 Apr 1994 17:00:41 -0600
Organization: Applied Computing Systems, Inc.
Lines: 35
Distribution: na
Message-ID: <2phi2p$a73@cnn.acsys.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cnn.acsys.com

Hi, has anyone heard of the so-called "Earthships" found in Northern
New Mexico?  I visited Taos, New Mexico (a small ski/artsy town in the
mountains of Northern New Mexico) this weekend and discovered a book
in the local bookstore called, _Earthships, Volume I_ by Michael
Reynolds, Solar Survival Press, 1990.

The book describes how to build your own self-sufficient, passive
solar house (Earthship).  What intrigued me the most about the book is
that:

(1) Reynolds preaches self-sufficiency -- ideally, the Earthship
should provide all its own energy, food, water, sewage, heating, and
cooling.  In other words, the Earthship isn't connected to the local
power grid or utility company.

I thought that was neat.  At the very least, I'm interested in
building a house that has zero or almost zero heating and cooling
costs.

(2) The Earthship (house)'s foundation is built on *discarded
automobile tires*.  (I never thought someone would build a house on
old car tires! :^) I know Reynolds didn't originate the idea of
building house foundations from rubber tires, but he certainly
popularlizes it.

Anyway, I'm going to visit one that has already been built in a week
or two, but I wanted to know if anyone online had any experiences with
them.

cheers,
dave sims
-- 
Dave Sims                                       PGP encryption key available
Internet:  sims@usa.acsys.com                   on my home page.
WWW:       http://cnn.acsys.com:5050/dave.html


From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!eff!news.kei.com!world!mkramer Wed May  4 11:18:24 EDT 1994
Article: 8869 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: ncf.general,misc.rural
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From: mkramer@world.std.com (Mark W Kramer)
Subject: Re: Sewage Sludge Utilization On Agricultural Lands
Message-ID: <Cp5opC.95y@world.std.com>
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
References: <Cp2KH1.JvD@freenet.carleton.ca> <Cp3r45.3x5@eskimo.com>
Date: Mon, 2 May 1994 03:36:47 GMT
Lines: 11

Dr. Bob Christianson (if I remember his name correctly), extension 
economist in the Resource Economics Dept., Stockbridge Hall, U. Mass, 
Amherst, MA , did a state-funded study perhaps 15 years ago, in 
conjunction with other researchers from other disciplines, of actual 
results and consequences of sewer sludge use on field corn for silage, I 
believe, including the fields of a farmer named Morse in Colrain, MA.  
There were fat reports published.  They, or their descendents may still 
exist.  Hope that helps.
 
(Prof.) Mark Kramer, Journalism Dept., Boston U.
mkramer@world.std.com


From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!gumby!wupost!waikato!auckland.ac.nz!bill.cs.aukuni.ac.nz!user Wed May  4 11:18:40 EDT 1994
Article: 8862 of misc.rural
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From: bill@cs.aukuni.ac.nz (Bill Flinn)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: ag communes in NE United States-info
Followup-To: misc.rural
Date: 2 May 1994 00:26:41 GMT
Organization: Comp Sci dept, Uni of Auckland,NZ
Lines: 14
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <bill-020594001930@bill.cs.aukuni.ac.nz>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bill.cs.aukuni.ac.nz

Dear All,
     I am posting this on behalf of a friend of mine without Internet
access. He is planning a trip to the North-eastern part of the US late June
- early July and would very much like to meet up with anyone involved in
commune based agricultural projects, and to share information on successes
or problems of same. He is part of a group of 8 people who own a 100 acre
farm on Waiheke Island near Auckland New Zealand.  Please reply via e-mail
to 

										bill@cs.aukuni.ac.nz

Thank you in advance,

Bill


From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!emory!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!crcnis1.unl.edu!docman.doc.state.ne.us!hannibal!jharris Mon May  9 23:08:55 EDT 1994
Article: 8904 of misc.rural
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From: jharris@hannibal.wncc.cc.ne.us (John Harris)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Alternative livestock without risk or capitol
Date: 6 May 1994 02:01:52 GMT
Organization: NDE Nebraska
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NNTP-Posting-Host: hannibal.wncc.cc.ne.us
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]


Alternative livestock with almost no investment.

How can you get investors to risk the kind of money it takes to get into
Alternative livestock which can cost from $500 to $5000 each.  In my case
I wanted to get into Cashmere goats that cost $3000 for a bred doe and
$2500 for a registered billy.  I talked to several of my friends at work
who live in town.  They were interested in two things.  First they wanted
an investment that looked like a money maker and if the animal dies they
would'nt be out their original investment.  The second and equally
important aspect was that they wanted secretly to be a part of the country
living but were stuck in town for various reasons.  They were also not
interested in being tied down with chores and animal responsibilities. 
Here is how I solved the problems.  They invest the $3000 for a bred doe
which they own in joint venture (not in partner ship) there are tax
reasons for this.  They own the animal and can depreciate it on their
taxis as breeding stock.  I purchased the males or (billies) in this case
and that was the extent of my original investment.  You only need one male
for multiple females in most species.  I do all the work they put up the
money.  I found an insurance company that has specialized in insuring
livestock and exotic animals since 1892.  The cost is 5% of the value of
the animal per year.  I wrote up a contract spelling out each party's
rights and responsibilities.
Their only responsibility was to invest the money for however many does
they wanted.  My responsibility was to do all the work like feeding,
sheltering, vet expenses, and any and all expenses incurred in the daily
operations, and one more thing I pay the 5% insurance cost each year to
protect their investment.  We split all profit from selling Cashmere,
seamen, breeding stock or anything else 50-50.
I got the livestock I wanted without the horrendous money outlay they get
50% of all the profit, a place in the country they can come and bring
their children, grand children, neises, and nephews and most importantly
themselves.  We never lack for company.  
This can work two ways.  If you are a city type and long for a touch of
the country you can advertise in your local news paper.  There are lots of
caring and friendly country folks who would like to try alternative
livestock but don't have the money to finance it.
If you are the country type with a small acreage and some shelter you can
advertise or contact your friends and get started in the venture of your
dreams.
If you would like information detailing how to do this as well as contract
examples contact:


--

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Nebraska Western Cashmere
John Harris  jharris@hannibal.wncc.cc.ne.us
90417 County Road #17
Mitchell Ne 69357   Voice:  (308) 635-1579 fax: (308) 635-6100
_______________________________________________________________


From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!sgiblab!uhog.mit.edu!uw-beaver!fluke!colson Wed May 11 22:55:50 EDT 1994
Article: 8968 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
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From: colson@tc.fluke.COM (Gary Colson)
Subject: bat houses
Message-ID: <CpLyAr.F2F@tc.fluke.COM>
Keywords: bat
Organization: Fluke Corporation, Everett, WA
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 10 May 1994 22:25:35 GMT
Lines: 11

We would like to try attracting bats by putting
up a "bat house".........& without buying one.

Whats up inside these things?   And what kind of
dimensions?  Any particular type of wood they like
best?

Thanks for any suggestions

Gary



From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!chpc.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!news.bu.edu!cball Wed May 11 22:56:20 EDT 1994
Article: 8984 of misc.rural
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From: cball@bu.edu (Charles Ball)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: bat houses
Date: 11 May 1994 18:38:05 GMT
Organization: Boston University
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <2qr8md$20i@news.bu.edu>
References: <CpLyAr.F2F@tc.fluke.COM> <2qqs1a$r40@search01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: it.bu.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0]

Also from the Boston Globe; Sunday edition sometime in the the past month:

	In the history of the US, there has been one documented case of a
	person catching rabies from a bat.

DonovWhite (donovwhite@aol.com) wrote:

: Just read in the Globe this morning that 15% of bats tested in Massachusetts
: had rabies.



From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.concert.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!udel!news.sprintlink.net!connected.com!beauty!lena Fri May 13 22:32:38 EDT 1994
Article: 9009 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural,rec.pets.birds
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From: lena@Happy-Man.com (Galena_Canada)
Subject: Re: Building a duck pond
Date: Thu, 12 May 1994 20:15:57 GMT
Message-ID: <CppHMu.81D@Happy-Man.com>
References: <CpDuzw.MD0@ryn.mro.dec.com>
Organization: Happy Man Corp, 4410 Pt Robinson, Vashon, WA 98070 206/463-9399
Lines: 16
Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu misc.rural:9009 rec.pets.birds:11031

In <CpDuzw.MD0@ryn.mro.dec.com> fease@elwood.enet.dec.com (Andrea Midtmoen Fease) writes:

>The $64,000 question -
>can we constract a *small* duck pond for them, and how do we do so?

You can pick up one of those big, round steel stock waterers for something
like $100 at a feed store.  If you buried it to the lip, you wouldn't
even have to look at the sheetmetal...
                                                                      /
             'Lena                                                   //
                                                                    //
           Avalon Farm                   lena@avalon.wa.com        //
          P.O. Box 2226                                           //
        Vashon, WA  98070                  (206) 463-9733        //
                                                                //
=======/=======/=======/=======/=======/=======/=======/=======//


From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.concert.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!noc.near.net!news.delphi.com!dhughson Fri May 13 22:33:25 EDT 1994
Article: 9011 of misc.rural
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From: dhughson@delphi.com (Dean Hughson)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: What we do in the country?
Date: 12 May 1994 22:20:59 GMT
Organization: Delphi Internet Services Corporation
Lines: 129
Message-ID: <9405121819591.DLITE.dhughson@delphi.com>
References: <johnstoc-120594113653@oncolpc09.med.unc.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1c.delphi.com
X-To: Dean Hughson <dhughson@delphi.com>

Well, Charlie, here is an article on my projects.  I am working on trying to
improve our area.  If anyone is looking for a neat small town to call home
contact me  (816-645-2155 days) or email and I'll show you around....NW
Missouri is every bit as nice as the Ozarks and not built up.  Good place to
raise kids and cheap prices to buy houses/land,etc.

Dean Hughson, Braymer MO

RURAL LIVING--Movers and Shakers-People who make things happen in Northwest
Missouri February 1994 issue

Every Small Town Needs a Sage and a Booster

Braymer, Missouri, a small town of fewer than 800 people, may seen like an
unlikely spot for a man like Dean Hughson to land, much less set up
operations.  Bit it's home, it's comfortable and it could get even more
homey if its newest promoter has his way.

Hughson's family has been here since the 1860's and he entered the world
right here in 1951.  His parents divorced when he was young and he moved
with his mother to Kansas City.  But Braymer was where he came on weekends
and summers to visit his grandparents, to think and relax and soak up small
town values.  He's got great memories of the things that make small towns
buzz, like the day Dr. Pepper was introduced and the time he watched Aunt
Jeminima flipping pancakes at McBee Chapel.

Following a career as an alcohol and drug counselor, then a period of making
lots of money as vice-president of sales for an international food company,
Hughson is back home.  What brought him back to Northwest Missouri is a tale
of pain, beginning with divorce papers being handed to him when he got off a
plane from Tokyo at age 40.

"I found out making money was not important when your kids can be taken away
from you" says Hughson ruefully.  He began a court battle over custody
rights that continues today.

A friend convinced him to move from Arizona to Kansas CIty and it wasn't
long until he was back in Braymer.  Dean and his new wife have built a house
on the Hughson family farm and he's now enscounced in a business building on
Braymer's main street that serves as headquarters for his international
consulting business in food processing.   The building is also a base for
several other activities, including an international computer support group
for divorced fathers and a push to promote Braymer as a good hometown for
people in search of one.

"It suddenly occurred to me that a small town is a good place to focus
energies and do good deeds," recalls Hughson.

Computers and modem technology figure heavily in the good deed department.
He's trying to get more computers into the local school.  As a testimonial
of the value of modem technology in communications, Hughson likes to tell
the story of how he had a blind date via fax with a Mexican woman who is now
his wife.  And as a former director of the Union Council for Soviet Jews, he
helped smuggle fax machines into the former Soviet Union to start an
underground fax network.  He also helped get some 6,000 Penecostal
Christians out of the former Communist country.

Dean likes big causes.  In the sixties, he was involved in the peace
movement.  In the late 70's and early 80's he was mainly caught up in making
money, but then he did a lot of charity work, including the Soviet projects.
Now his cause is the future of his small hometown andhelped divorced dads
get through the trauma of being without their children.

Actually, Hughson secretly desires to be the 'sage' of Braymer.  "There's
always been room for small town eccentrics.  it's just too bad they don't
fund resident philosophers." he adds with a laugh.

And Dean does fit the mold of eccentric in this conservative and close-knit
town.  He drives a Rolls Royce and a sports car, collects art, antiques and
international friends, raises Anatolian Shepherd dogs and isn't just talking
about writing a book--he's doing it.  Many Braymerittes raise their eyebrows
and wonder at such strange activities, but they're slowly warming to the
large man with an even larger heart.  It's obvious to them that he cares.

"I'd like to see writers move here and people who have home-based
businesses." says Hughson about an idea he has to push people disenchanted
with urban areas to adopt Braymer as their hometown.  "We need more people."

He thinks Braymer has a lot to sell to people who feel rootless.  "What I
like is the friendships.  It's a very healing place and y ou can't put a
dollar value on that.  I've lived in $500,000 houses where you don't know
your neighbors."

Dean likes being able to go to the coffee shop next door and talk about
philosophy with a farmer.  He likes being able to work to make a difference
in the life of a small town.  He's amazed at the quality of the school
system and the overall quality of life.  "No, you can't run to McDonalds
every night.  You have to cook.  But the school system here is incredible.
 It has a nice faculty, a top-notch staff and a good school board.  The kids
are expected to behave and are raised to show respect to adults and each
other.  It's just a healthy place to raise kids."  He brings his own kids
here as often as possible.

"We don't have gangs or car-jackings." he continues, "But we do have lower
divorce rates and neighbors who bring you pies.  I've been out and seen the
world and I know oit's nothing to write home about.  Just more people, more
activity and more problems.  Give me the country any day."

Besides his push to get more computers in the Braymer school, Hughson
frequently invites people in for "Simple Food for Simple Folk", an intimate
gathering of local thinkers.  He'll cook a pot of chili or pasta, serve it
with a diet soda and keep the conversation flowing about what can be done to
promote and improve Braymer.  He's helped start a local investment club,
just for the fun of playing the stock market, and would lover to set up a
cultural lecture series.

Small town life is not a complete bed of roses, admits Hughson.  "The
downside is the defeatist attitude.  People here think they're missing out
on something in the outside world.  They're not."

The small town philanthropist says things change slowly in the country. "But
the good things that are good don't go away and things that need to be
changed do change eventually."

Small town residents tend to criticize and even condemn people like Hughson
for their unorthodox methods and the way they want to move in and change
things.  But there's room for do-good eccentrics, according to Hughson.  He
likens himself to the 'strange uncle who came back from the war kinda batty
and stayed in the attic all the time.  People just accept it and go."

If he can, Dean Hughson will stay in his own 'attic' and quietly attempt to
do the things he believes in.

"I'm expecting big things in Braymer.  And when I'm 85, I'll still be buying
green bananas and waiting for them to ripen."


 



From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!torn!nott!cunews!psmith Fri May 13 22:34:38 EDT 1994
Article: 9018 of misc.rural
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From: psmith@superior.carleton.ca (Peter Smith)
Subject: Picking receptacles you wear
Message-ID: <psmith.768836382@superior>
Sender: news@cunews.carleton.ca (News Administrator)
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Fri, 13 May 1994 13:39:42 GMT
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I have checked with my local gardener's supply centres, and I'm unable
to find any sort of picking receptacle that one can wear when picking
large quantities of fruit and vegetables (eg:  peas, summers squash,
beans, ...).  It can be a pain to drag a receptacle around with you, I
find, and I want to be able to pick *large* quantities a bit more
efficiently.

I expect that orchard supply stores would have "picking aprons" etc.
But, I can't find anyone who supplies that sort of item around here.
Any mail order supply companies or ideas out there?

Thanks in advance!


From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!gumby!yale!yale.edu!noc.near.net!saturn.caps.maine.edu!maine.maine.edu!aliciam Fri May 13 22:38:03 EDT 1994
Article: 9027 of misc.rural
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Organization: University of Maine System
Date: Fri, 13 May 1994 16:26:40 EDT
From: <ALICIAM@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Message-ID: <94133.162640ALICIAM@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Newsgroups: rec.gardens,misc.rural
Subject: Re: Picking receptacles you wear
References: <psmith.768836382@superior>
Lines: 7
Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu rec.gardens:32456 misc.rural:9027

How about having somebody make you an apron-type affair
with big pockets?* Or look into grooming aprons,
etc. (pet/livestock supply) with various pockets?

*having something supported by your shoulders
would probably be better than around your waist,
for comfort.


From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!news.clark.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!news.u.washington.edu!lamantia Fri May 13 22:39:23 EDT 1994
Article: 9029 of misc.rural
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From: lamantia@u.washington.edu (Stephen Lamantia)
Newsgroups: misc.rural,sci.agriculture
Subject: Re: Hen House
Date: 12 May 1994 15:44:09 GMT
Organization: University of Washington
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hypes@boi.hp.com (Gary Hypes) writes:


>I'm just getting into chickens -- I have a rooster my neighbor couldn't
>use, and six R.I. Red pullets -- and I'm trying to build a simple hen
>house and run for them.  I've checked with the local Ag Extension folks,
>and they have lots of plans for poultry shelters:  assuming I'm going
>into commercial production, and want to raise anwhere from 40 to 4,000
>chickens.  If I can't come up with anything unique, I'll probably just 
>copy my neighbor's setup, which was put up haphazardly but simply (and 
>works VERY well).

>Any ideas, suggestions, resources, lessons-learned, etc. anyone would
>care to share about putting up a small hen-house?  (I'm in Idaho, the
>winters do get cold...)

>- Gary Hypes -


Ask a good local bookstore to come up with a book for you entitled 
"Chickens in Your Backyard".  I don't remember the author or publisher,
but if you have trouble finding it, email me and I'll get you the specifics.
It's an excellent book for raising chickens on the exact small scale you're 
talking about.

(And it doesn't take too much reading between the lines to understand what 
your phrase "I have a rooster my neighbor couldn't use" really means.  I 
too recently passed along to a [maybe now former] friend a rooster I "really 
couldn't use".  I had almost forgotten how wonderful it was not to have 
my time of waking dictated to me by a brainless poultry critter; and my 
neighbors were too polite to come to my house with torches, but judging 
by the number of "how's your rooster doing?" comments I got from them, 
I'd guess that they're not spending too much time missing Mr. WakeUp, 
either.)

-- Steve LaMantia
   Seattle, WA


