EMUSIC-L Digest Volume 8, Number 5 Today's Topics: WX11/WT11 (2 messages) Performer and Apple MIDI Manager Roland U-20 on the U-20 (and the Xk too, actually) (2 messages) A tale of woe, alas, alackaday Xk woes Tapes? Korg DSS-1 (4 messages) Your EMUSIC-L Digest moderator is Joe McMahon . You may subscribe to EMUSIC-L by sending mail to listserv@american.edu with the line "SUB EMUSIC-L your name" as the text. The EMUSIC-L archive is a service of SunSite (sunsite.unc.edu) at the University of North Carolina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 29 Aug 89 10:20:37 EDT From: DAVID@PENNDRLS Subject: WX11/WT11 I've been a subscriber to EMUSIC-D, content to be a passive absorber of information, since I'm fascinated by MIDI and synthesizers but have no experience with them. Now I'm thinking of buying one, so I'd like to try to take advantage of the net's knowledge to inform my decision. I'm a wind player, so I'm looking at wind controllers. My girlfreind has an SG1 sampling keyboard, but that's as close as I've gotten to MIDI so far. I'm looking at the Yamaha WX11/WT11, since I need both the wind controller and the synth. The dealer has quoted $800. I can't afford to go much higher right now. (Later I will doubtless add pieces to my setup.) So, given that I want to play a wind controller and need a complete performance setup (less amp; I'll plug into the sound system), is the WX11/WT11 sufficient? Are there any other wind synths I should look at before buying? Any opinions on how the WT11 sounds (I'm looking initially for accurate reproduction)? Thanks for any help you can give me. -- R. David Murray (DAVID@PENNDRLS.BITNET, DAVID@PENNDRLS.UPENN.EDU) P.S.: I searched the data base and found a couple questions about the WX7 but no answers. Does this mean there are no wind synth players out there? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Aug 89 16:26:41 EDT From: DAVID@PENNDRLS Subject: Wind controllers I sent a message a couple days ago noting that I am looking to buy a wind controller and synth and asking for opinions, especially about the WX11/WT11. I've gotten two responses so far. Mario Vergona hasn't used the WX11/WT11 but recommends a book, Expressive FM Applications by Sal Gallina, published by YAMAHA, that he says teaches the programming methods for the DX7 and TX81z and comes with a tape that contains a bunch of patches that are real useful for the WX7. He also notes that I ought to be able to get a TX81z for <=$250. says: >Well, this is just one person's reaction ... I didn't like the beast. >Far too little real flexibility, for my taste. The lip action was >primitive, compared to any real reed; the polyphony was uninteresting >compared to any polyphonic keyboard. The tones were rehashes of dozens >of synthetic ones. I tried the WX11/WT11 out in the store. I agree pretty wholeheartedly with STEARNS. I'm not giving up yet, though. The salesman reports that the WT11 is basically a reworked TX81z, which YAMAHA is no longer making. They have already sold the last ones they had at a $250 sale price. When I didn't like the sound of the WT11 he suggested trying the WX7 (which he thinks is the better of the two controllers) with a Kawi K1. So we did that. Unfortunately, the store unit did not have any straight wind samples loaded. My girlfriend had this same problem when we went looking for a keyboard. The stores are all oriented toward what I will call, if you will excuse the term 'glitz' sounds. These synthetic sounds are fun, and I wouldn't mind using them once in a while, but I agree with STEARNS, who said in his note to me that he thinks sounds may be getting overused, and "are becoming something of a source of boredom even as they try to be startlingly new". After looking for a while, we finally found the SG1, with its full note range sampling of a real piano. It is more than a glorified tape recorder since you can get expressive with the notes once you get used to the keyboard. Its main attraction, though, is that it is a heck of lot more portable than the grand piano whose sound it is based on. Now, portability does not seem like an issue when you are talking about wind instruments, but actually it is. If I can have one box (well, two boxes: the synth and the controller) that produces sounds recognizably similar to ten different wind instruments, that is a lot easier to carry around than all ten instruments. Not to mention the fact that it may be cheaper, and that I don't know how to *play* all ten of those instruments. So, I'm willing to sacrifice some of the flexability the real instruments would have, and even some of the sound quality, in order to have variety in a box. Some tunes just cry out for a touch of brass, or oboe, or even pan-pipe, but I don't want them that often that I want to buy the instruments and learn how to use them. (Well, maybe someday....) Besides, used at the right time, a little astral chorus or space dust can be quite affective (sic) . . . Anyway, enough rambling. I do have some more questions for the list. Is the Kawi K1 any good? The salesman told me it has 256 samples built in, and that these can be edited. (He also said that no more could be added, despite the little card slot it has. This sounds wrong to me. Anyone know?) Anyone know if the basic samples sound or can be made to sound enough like the real thing to pass a *casual* aural inspection? As I said, I'm not expecting perfection, but something more like their namesakes than the patches in the WT11 would be nice. Basically I'd like somebody hearing it without knowing it was a synth react with, 'oh, yes, that's a clarinet.' They might then add, 'it sounds a little funny', but I want it to be reconizable. What other synths or samplers or what-have-yous should I look at? I can't spend $2000, but I could go a little higher than the $800 the WX11/WT11 or WX7/K1 combinations have been quoted at. Also, I've read the MIDI tutorials (thanks! things are a whole lot clearer now), but don't have a real clear picture what signals a wind controller puts out or how these signals can be tied to changing the sound. Would anyone be willing to explain this stuff to me or point me to a good book on the subject? I'm curious about things like, can I program a synth to recognize breath and/or lip control as a control on the...attack?...of the sound or does it burst forth with the same...dynamic profile?...regardless of what my breath is doing? As you can see, I don't even know the right terms....I guess I really need a pointer to a basic text of some sort. -- R. David Murray (DAVID@PENNDRLS.BITNET, DAVID@PENNDRLS.UPENN.EDU) P.S.: Thanks Mario and STEARNS for taking the time to answer me. Sorry I didn't reply direct but I haven't had time. Hope it's OK I quoted without asking you first . . . ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 89 08:29:11 EDT From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Performer and Apple MIDI Manager I'm waiting for a copy of Apple's MIDI manager which is in the post to me at this very moment. Now: are there any more Performer users out there? I've just heard from USEnet (so it *must* be true, right?) that MOTU aren't making any comments about MIDI Manager support at all, and their tech. support guys don't know anything about this. I'm going to call MOTU trans-Atlantic to lobby them about this. I would urge other Performer users to do the same. MIDI Manager is an important step forward in the Mac world, and it's pretty grim that one of the top MIDI software houses isn't moving fast on this one. We now return you to your scheduled transmission. Nick. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 89 11:25:00 EDT From: a Pirate twin Subject: Roland U-20 I just had the opportunity to listen to a demo of the new Roland U-20 - wow! I am extremely impressed, at least at first listen, with this board. Has anyone purchase one yet (apparently they're Roland's top seller in Canada right now)? I am seriously considering this board to replace my drum machine (old reliable but not so hot anymore RX11) and add to my setup. The grand piano is killer! I'm wondering what it's usefulness as a controller is, as I have an opportunity to get rid of my Oberhiem xK in the deal as well. Any comments? -brian (... another terrifying example of the Reindeer Effect!) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 89 15:13:00 EST From: METLAY@PITTVMS Subject: on the U-20 (and the Xk too, actually) Brian: Maybe you can answer the burning question a lot of us have: did Roland get rid of that awful noise in the sounds on the U-110? They're really of poor quality, and supposedly the problem was hardware-fixable and implemented on the U-20, but that's just a rumor I heard from somewhere.... And on the Xk, how are you getting rid of yours, and why? (I wondered if other people had come up with reasons of their own to add to my long list....|-< ) More on that in another posting (to follow almost immediately). rahashishi, ****** metlay (the "m.m." stands for | Analog synthesis survives and thrives in "my moniker's") | a digital world because there are those who metlay@pittvms.BITNET | believe in fighting for what they love, even metlay@vms.cis.pitt.EDU | at the risk of appearing (gasp!) antiquated. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 89 16:58:00 EDT From: a Pirate twin Subject: RE: on the U-20 (and the Xk too, actually) >Brian: > >Maybe you can answer the burning question a lot of us have: did Roland get >rid of that awful noise in the sounds on the U-110? They're really of poor >quality, and supposedly the problem was hardware-fixable and implemented >on the U-20, but that's just a rumor I heard from somewhere.... Sorry, I've not kept up on the new Roland stuff (til yesterday), but the U-20 I listened too was very clean. >And on the Xk, how are you getting rid of yours, and why? (I wondered if other >people had come up with reasons of their own to add to my long list....|-< ) I actually like my xK, most of the time. Lately I've had problems using it with my S950 (like bending a note and note returning to the original pitch), but I'm not sure if it's the xK or the Akai. My main reason for getting rid of it would be to finance the acquisition of a new board, especially if I can do MIDI controller functions with it (such as the U-20, so I've heard). I've just purchased a house, so I could have room for a studio ... now I can't afford to put the equipment in! My first xk, however, blew up. It was replaced by the fellow I purchased it from and the second was OK. I am a bit nervous about it, however, because my buddy's music store has bitten the big one and I don't know if he will support me anymore. My friendly Roland dealer is going to offer me some cash, so why not?! -brian (... another terrifying example of the Reindeer Effect!) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 89 14:25:00 PDT From: Willis Dair Subject: RE: on the U-20 (and the Xk too, actually) YES!!! The noise is gone! With earphones on I hated listening to the U-110. With earphones on the U-20, the sound it clean. The distortion in the mallet sounds (marimba and vibes) from the noise is also gone. Roland called this box RS-PCM, where RS is for re-sythesis (yea, the newest buzz word in the synth industry). I saw this on another newsgroup, but I also agreed with the post-er-- look for the power electric guitar sound. It is dynamite! The sound in general from the U-20 is excellent. Willis Dair Systems Programmer Academic Computing Center Santa Clara University ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 89 16:19:00 EST From: METLAY@PITTVMS Subject: A tale of woe, alas, alackaday Hello all. As promised, here's a post on a number of topics, including equipment reliability, obsolescence, the restriction of one's musical vision by technology, and just plain stupidity.... A long time ago, about mid-1986 as I remember, Oberheim released a keyboard controller for their well-beloved synth the Xpander, called the Xk. It was a lovely little device, having the ability to split and layer three different synths, with "spillover" of notes to three more synths. It could remap its two springloaded levers, slider, and footswitch to a different MIDI value for every zone, and its nifty little arpeggiator could sync to outside pulses, even if they were syncopated. In my ideal setup, this keyboard would synchronize my two Xpanders as a 12-voice instrument to the rimshot pulses out of my TR707, and by judicious application of splits and layers I could have a 12-voice polyphonic synth with simultaneous hand-played notes, arpeggiation and sequencing, all with that glorious Oberheim sound I'm constantly ragging on Nick for not having the guts to sell the rest of his studio and buy |-> . It looks great on paper, doesn't it? Well, it worked well in practice, too, until the Xk died. And was fixed. And died again. And was fixed again. And died again. And was replaced. And died. And was fixed, tweaked, and partially updated with the many ECOs that began pouring out of Oberheim at about this time. And died anyway. And was totally, completely fixed at last. And lasted about six months, then died again, and (this time) is sitting on a workbench in Oberheim's factory in California, with Tom Dunn himself scratching his head and wishing that the damn thing had never been released. It was, in short, a lemon. I don't blame my dealer: he took the loss of giving me a new unit with a new warranty. I blame Oberheim, but not for anything worse than not doublechecking what kind of re-engineering their Japanese factory (which they haven't used for over a year, for ANYTHING, interestingly enough) had done on production models, which is forgiveable considering the corporate reorganization they were undergoing at the time, and besides they did offer all mods and repairs for free, and everyone's entitled to make a mistake, right? Laying blame won't help. The problem is, my studio's essentially crippled until: (a) The Xk comes back working beautifully and never acts up again (and if you believe that, I have this bridge I'd like to sell you) (b) I buy a new master keyboard and everything else I need to replace the Xk (a huge investment, as the Xk does things few other boards can do) (c) I wise up and clear out time in my schedule to make contingency plans (naah, too sensible) So what's a guy to do? Why, bore EMUSIC-L to death with his tale of woe, of course! So I'd like to dredge some worthwhile stuff out of this mess, to encourage discussion and maybe help someone else in the same boat, with some random thoughts and questions: 1. MORAL: Design your studio around algorithms, not particular items! I've learned my lesson now, but good, and as much as I love my various gear, I now know damn well that I could make perfectly worthwhile music without my Xk, my Cyclone, my Korg, or even (gasp!) my Xpanders. 2. COMMENT: This is a good reason to pay 10% or so extra and patronize your local full-service music store instead of saving money and going with Sam Ash or someone like that. If I'd gotten my Xk from there, they never would have offered to replace it, a move which got me through some critical sessions at the time. 3. QUERY: Has anyone else ever had stuff like this happen to them? Stupidity loves company, I guess.... 4. GEARHEAD QUESTION: What device, or combination of devices, would be required to completely replace an Xk, which has: -three overlapping or split Zones on the keyboard, each with its own patch number, transpose value, MIDI mono on/off, controller numbers for the two levers, slider and footswitch, levers on/off, selectable note spillover (play up to n notes on channel x, the next note goes to x+1) and arpeggiator enable -61 key velocity/pressure/release velocity sensitive keyboard -two levers, one a reversible pitch bender, the other a bidirectional modwheel -a slider and a footswitch, both assignable -100 setups of all parameters -adjustable pressure and velocity sensitivities -an arpeggiator that can arpeggiate in forward, reverse, back-and-forth, or random key order, follow notes under keys, the hold button, or both, and can sync to an external pulse generator at one step per pulse -chord memory and key lock controls I'm leaving out the Oberheim SysEx it can transmit on command, as that's really not fair, although the Roland A80 and A50 can supposedly do stuff like that if programmed properly. How small a setup can you get to do at least this much? The Kurzweil MIDIboard comes close, but it can't transmit the first six notes of polyphony on one MIDI channel and "spill over" the next note to the next MIDI channel. My best bet so far is the Kawai K4 with a Systemizer and a Cyclone outboard, an investment of over $1900 retail, and there aren't enough left-hand controllers. Nobody else has release velocity. The Oberheim Eclipse doesn't count, as it's vaporware until they hit the stores. Any other suggestions? I'm looking forward to people's comments and input. gaggeegah, ****** metlay | METLAY MISQUOTE OF THE MONTH: ****** | I have definitely transcended my area of metlay@pittvms.BITNET | omniscience. metlay@vms.cis.pitt.EDU | --C.M. Vincent ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Aug 89 09:58:00 EST From: METLAY@PITTVMS Subject: Xk woes Brian: It's the Xk. The lock washers on the pitch wheel have worked loose and need to be retightened. Oberheim ECO 1002 tells you how to fix it yourself; all you need is a couple of 11mm lock washers, a wrench, and an ohmmeter. This is one of many bad design faults that plague the Xk; if you aren't relying on it the way I am, and you can get cash for it, dump it NOW! other problems to look for: random memory loss, audio hum from instruments connected to it (due to improper MIDI jack grounding), crashes and lockups when powering up. good luck, metlay ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Aug 89 10:23:21 EDT From: Joe McMahon Subject: Tapes? Anybody gotten their copy of the tape yet? --- Joe M. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Aug 89 12:19:08 CDT From: Eddie Mikell Subject: Korg DSS-1 I have been looking for a sampler lately, and have come across a Korg DSS-1. I believe Korg has discontinued this unit, but haven't been able to get in touch with anyone at Korg to confirm this. I would like comments about this unit before I buy it. Is it a decent sampler? What about the availability of sounds? Is the keyboard any good or does it play like pushing pennies across a plastic plate? I can buy this unit for $895. Is this a fair deal or should I dicker some more. Would the Mirage be a better buy at $595? Thanks, thanks and more thanks! Eddie H. Mikell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Aug 89 14:14:18 EDT From: Jeffrey R Kell Subject: Re: Korg DSS-1 31 Aug 89 12:19:08 CDT from On Thu, 31 Aug 89 12:19:08 CDT Eddie Mikell said: >Korg DSS-1. >I believe Korg has discontinued this unit, but haven't been able to >get in touch with anyone at Korg to confirm this. I have heard this also, but not sure either. >I would like comments about this unit before I buy it. Is it a decent >sampler? What about the availability of sounds? Is the keyboard >any good or does it play like pushing pennies across a plastic plate? I have one and like it very much; it will sample at 48Khz at 14-bit resolution -- one of the best under 5-figure-pricetags. There were only four factory disks (each with 4 'systems' of 32 patches) when I got mine but that was right after their release. There were 12-16 or so available later. The keyboard is good, and both velocity and aftertouch sensitive. It also does very decent analog sounds by providing several waveforms as samples you can mix/filter/modulate/play with; it reproduces most of the DW6000 sounds. Bad points: takes awhile to load, samples eat up memory like crazy at high resolution, sampling mechanics are a little complex to learn and work with. >I can buy this unit for $895. Is this a fair deal or should I dicker some >more. Would the Mirage be a better buy at $595? Oh hell no. The Mirage has lots of (mediocre quality) samples available, but its otherwise a rag. If you found a cheap rackmount one it might be tolerable. If you don't mind possibly discontinued equipment, grab the DSS-1 (they originally retailed around $2500). If you have any other specific questions mail me directly. ****************************** * A bird in the hand is safer than one over the head. ****************************** +-----------------------------------+----------------------------------+ | Jeffrey R Kell, Dir Tech Services | UTC Postmaster/Listserv co-ord. | | Admin Computing, 117 Hunter Hall |Bitnet: JEFF@UTCVM.BITNET | | Univ of Tennessee at Chattanooga |JEFF%UTCVM.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU | | Chattanooga, TN 37403 | Bell: (615)-755-4551 | +-----------------------------------+----------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Aug 89 15:07:00 EST From: METLAY@PITTVMS Subject: DSS-1 If you can dicker, do so, but even at $895 I consider this a good deal. I'm a big synth fanatic, and the DSS-1 was the first sampler to really incorporate synth-style sound shaping in its architecture; in other words, instead of being a glorified and somewhat arcane tape recorder with keys, it was a synthesizer whose DCOs happened to be sampling. It has a full synth architecture, built-in DDL for stereo effects, and I like the keyboard (although I *hate* the joystick) a lot. It's only 12-bit, but next to a Mirage it sounds real good. The sound selection isn't on Akai's level, but it ain't chopped liver neither. I almost bought one of them for $1200; for $895, if I weren't brokamundo right now, I'd jump at the chance. Just my opinion, of course. yeesh ba, zrgynl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Aug 89 23:54:46 EDT From: "Kevin R. Weiner" Subject: Re: Korg DSS-1 Apparently Korg's interest in the sampler market has waned, partly due to the fact that people who were buying the mid-range units were more interested in playing than sampling. They had announced an S-1, but that will probably never materialize. They're putting most of their stock in the M-1. I just recently picked up a DSM-1 (the rack mount cousin of the DSS-1) and I really like the sound. I believe they are very close in sound quality, though you can only trade disks from the DSS-1 to the DSM-1, not vice versa. As someone mentioned, they are pretty slow loading. While we're on the subject, does anyone know of a good source for DSS-1/DSM-1 samples? Kevin Weiner Lehigh University Computing Center (215) 758-3991 End of EMUSIC-L Digest ***********************