EMUSIC-L Digest Volume 9, Number 4 Today's Topics: Your EMUSIC-L Digest moderator is Joe McMahon . You may subscribe to EMUSIC-L by sending mail to listserv@american.edu with the line "SUB EMUSIC-L your name" as the text. The EMUSIC-L archive is a service of SunSite (sunsite.unc.edu) at the University of North Carolina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 23 Oct 89 00:08:00 EST From: METLAY@PITTVMS.BITNET Subject: analog drum machines: the TR808 and its cousins In response to a query by Mark Loomis, on a subject of general interest to old-gear fanatics and the historically curious on the List: The first drum machines that were widely commercially available and could be programmed by their users were the rhythm boxes made by Roland in the very early '80s. The various models sold each had their own character and sound, and they represented the transitional period between the preprogrammed cheesy Ace-Tone rhythm units that Roland used to make for organs and the TR707, the first of their all-digital drum machines. These included the CR78 CompuRhythm, the analog TR808 Rhythm Composer, and the analog/digital hybrid TR909. The CR78 was a chunky little woodgrained box, basically a cube, with a few buttons and controls on the front. It was originally designed as an auto- accompaniment device for organists, and was set apart from other rhythm boxes by its programmable patterns, which were the first on a box of this kind. Its memory was digital, but its sound sources were analog: essentially synth sounds that were drummish in nature. It didn't enjoy the fame its successors did, which is a pity, because it was a fun little unit. If you'd like to hear some records where it got heavy use, I recommend picking up the following discs: TELEKON by Gary Numan uses it heavily in conjunction with a live drummer (the opening of "Remind Me To Smile" is all CR78), and in fact Gary still hauls one around on gigs; FUTURE MEMORIES by Patrick Moraz has a side- long live cut called "Metamorphosis" that is propelled by a CR78; and last and most importantly, 1984 by Anthony Phillips uses it to brilliant effect, as do various of his PRIVATE PARTS AND PIECES albums. Ant is a shining example of someone who makes the most of his gear; the CR78 was the only drum unit he owned, even in an era of cheap and great sounding digital drum boxes, but because he was comfortable and fluent in using it he did so exclusively on many songs, and to great effect. Treated CR78 serves as a backing track for his ominous "Bouncer", and "1984 part 1 and 2" rely on a CR78 backbeat to a percussionist adding live cymbals etc. A wonderful box! The TR808 was a cut-down CR78, basically; it consisted of the programmable section of a CR78, repackaged for easier programming, with some new sounds and features. It was easy to program, brutally straightforward to use, and could be "played" live along with a preset rhythm. The unit's snare and bass are flabby and lack character, but the toms are great and the handclap is simply unbeatable (the TR707 has an almost-but-not-quite-perfect TR808 sample as its clap; the Roland people knew what couldn't be easily improved upon!). The unit has a unique sound, and in the days that rap was getting started it was available used and cheap as the "big boys" threw theirs away for LinnDrums. When rap took off as a genre, the TR808 became its unofficial official drum box, and suddenly the old units were worth a fortune. They can go for $500 to $600 a pop nowadays, unheard of for an old analog beat box before house music and rap came along. To hear one, you can pick up almost any rap or house record, but if you want to hear the unit's pure and unadulterated sound, check out ASSASSIN by Mark Shreeve, a great E-music disc featuring only a Pro-One, a CS30, a Juno 60, and a TR808, but sounding just dynamite. I personally love the 808's sound, mainly because I can remember the days when it was the best beatbox money could buy; I consider it overhyped these days, and certainly not worth the money. If you're desperate, the new Roland R8 has a TR808 waveform card available. The TR909 "Juice Machine" is the least-known of the three, a transitional instrument between the 808 and the 707. It combined analog sounds (like the handclap, yowza!) from the 808 with a few digital sound samples, and was the first Roland drum box to feature MIDI sync. Its MIDI spec was limited, but its sound combination made it stand apart from the other machines of the era, even its famous predecessor. It's nowhere near as popular as the 808, but it's much easier to sync up in a modern studio, and certain iconoclastic rappers prefer it to the 808 as a badge of individuality. One in particular is Just-Ice, who proudly features the TR909 on his albums. (The credits mention a DMX, but don't be fooled; Just-Ice's "DMX" is a *person*, the kid who does his "human beat box" effects.) These days, analog drums are back in vogue, but they'll eventually fade into the woodwork again and their prices will sink back down to sane levels. When they do, I'm planning to buy a couple: they take to processing much more nicely than digital drums do, at least where REAL signal processors are concerned. You know, fuzzboxes, flangers, envelope followers, the GOOD stuff.... metlay ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 89 10:25:50 BST From: Nick Rothwell Subject: On the W30 and other (kafk gak) workstations 20 Oct 89 15:22:00 EST <28964.8910220802@lfcs.ed.ac.uk >Go with the Mac and the sampler, no question. Hmm, perhaps I'm in a funny mood or something, but I feel like playing devil's advocate here, a little. Do I like the idea of the W30? Well, I quite like the package. We are two keyboardists who will be playing live concerts next year. I have two keyboards, my associate has three. I have 6 synths, my associate has 4. I think we'd find a W30 rather useful; it provides a sampling capability, which neither of us has; it provides another keyboard, which is a good thing since it would mean less MIDI routing and processing during a live session (we have this fear of hung notes, stuck pitch-benders, crashed Cyclones, Matrix 6's suddenly put into Omni mode by screams from crashed Cyclones, etc. etc. [as an aside, I'd be happy to start a thread of discussion about what you can and can't trust for live use...]). And the W30 has a sequencer and disk drive, doesn't it? I don't think I'd trust the Mac live. I once tried to set up a Mac for a seminar, and it died on its feet. Admittedly, it had a cowboy memory upgrade which are known to be dodgy, but it's still a fear. Are others out there quite happy to gig Macs? I feel that a unit built to gigging standards (?) with a floppy drive is a safer bet. >In the rush for the chic sophistication of the all-in-one workstation, >users have forgotten what MIDI was really invented for, namely flexibility. >In the year or two before MIDI was adopted, every instrument manufacturer >was developing its own digital communications standard, and all of them >were mutually exclusive. The motto: buy all of your gear from us, or suffer. >MIDI blew the market wide open by allowing anyone to connect anything to >anything else, and the proliferation of fascinating and worthwhile gear that >would never have seen the light of day otherwise is a matter of record. This is absolutely right. Let me say that the W30 is *not* a workstation. Period. It's a keyboard sequencer/sampler with a floppy drive. It is nothing else. If you think you can buy one of these as a cheap Fairlight and do all your music on it, you're probably going to be disappointed. My situation is that I have a number of synth modules, both digital and analog, and it would be useful to have an extra keyboard, some sampling capability, and a reliable sequence playback machine that I can download from the Mac beforehand. >Nowadays, though, in our era of "backwards is better," the hip thing to do >seems to be stuffing everything one can into one box and saying, buy our >all-in-one, or suffer. I would hope that these things are more open-ended than that. For example, I would hope that the W30 would allow me to run some sampled percussion sequences from its sequencer, while letting me play my lovely analog Super JX module from its keyboard. The potential drawbacks of a machine like this are that the quality and flexibility of the individual components may have been compromised. For instance, it's possible that the W30/S-330 has the same silly partitioned memory scheme as the S-10, which would be a shame. On the plus side, I would hope that the physical all-in-one-ness of the '30 would make it economical...? >The W30's advantages are easy to delineate. It's small, selfcontained, and >sturdy. If you take it to a gig, your carrying and wiring hassles will be >minimal. This is a big plus, I think. I have two keyboards, 7 MIDI sound generators, 3 MIDI fx processors, a patchbay, and various other bits and pieces, and the Mac of course. I use 16 mains outlets and have approaching 100 cables in my set-up. Moving this stuff to a live gig is going to be a bit of a nightmare. No less, getting it all working once it's moved. I spent two hours a couple of weeks ago tracking down a MIDI comms error. One of the few dozen MIDI cables had died. After that, I went out and bought a Studiomaster MA36 MIDI analyser (lots of flashing lights, you'd love it, metlay!). >But its disadvantages are equally easy to delineate, and they're all part and >parcel of one big disadvantage that every workstation shares: it's a closed >system, the antithesis of MIDI. If there's any part of it that you don't like, >well, you're just out of luck. > >With a separate sampler and a Mac, you have the problems of wiring up the >system, tweaking it, making sure your MIDI cables are hooked up, and getting >the proper software and firmware to do what you want to do best. Now, let's be >honest: those are major hassles, and the learning curve is steep. But you end >up with the tremendous power of having your system hand-built and fine-tuned >to the way YOU work. Don't like to edit your samples or synth setups on the >tiny LCD? Get a librarian/editor package for the Mac. The learning curve is steep, and not helped by the ideosyncrasies of some of the modules (I'm convinced that the Cyclone is so named because of the effect it has on any MIDI data stream it comes into contact with). It's taken me over a year to get my system into a reasonable shape (that includes writing the generic editor/librarian). But, now I'm getting towards that elusive goal of Integration, I'm starting to reap the rewards. For fun, I spent yesterday trying to simulate the opening few seconds of the film Blade Runner, with those deep drums and distant synth motif, and had my editor/librarian showing me the MKS-70 and D-110 params at the same time. But, getting a computer-based studio to this state can be a massive task. >Want better sounds, or different sounds? Add another >module. Your studio grows a bit, and the Mac handles the new arrival the way >it handles everything else you have already. Maybe. Some units are no trouble. Some are a constant long drawn-out battle. I gave up on my Simmons SPM 8:2 because it kept humming, whistling, zipping and generally breaking. I have some mixed feelings about the Cyclone because its concept of legal MIDI is different from anything else's. And the Super-JX MIDI spec. is bug-ridden, period. I'll forgive the JX, though, because it sounds *superb*. >(Ha! I hear you say. Z equals infinity for the W30, >because it's a sampler! Bah! I say. It's no easier to use than any other >sampler module on the market, and [imho, damn it, imho] its sound quality is >considerably inferior.) The thing I have against samplers is that you can't treat a sampler as a tabula rasa. With my synth setup, I can imagine a sound, and with some work, come pretty close to duplicating it (like the Blade Runner exercise). What do you do with a sampler? Buy a new disk from the manufacturer with the sounds you want? (I dislike this off-the-shelf approach to sound design.) Or, go out and sample. So, where would *you* find the Blade Runner drums? I'm not going to knock this approach, actually, and I think it's the only really creative way to use a sampler. If I were to buy one, I'd be interested in wandering around with a portable DAT and capturing sounds myself; otherwise, I don't really see much point, for my purposes, anyway. >And when you upgrade, you'll be adding improvements to a generalized system >rather than patching things onto the outside of the impenetrable workstation >architecture. If the W30 is "impenetrable", that's a real shame. If it's a single box containing some independent units, then that's fine. But it sure ain't no "workstation". >Your mileage may vary. Batteries not included, offer not good in Nebraska, etc. >good luck, Ditto. >metlay Nick. -- Nick Rothwell, Laboratory for Foundations of Computer Science, Edinburgh. nick@lfcs.ed.ac.uk !mcvax!ukc!lfcs!nick ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ Fais que ton reve soit plus long que la nuit. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 89 11:19:00 EST From: METLAY@PITTVMS.BITNET Subject: On workstations. Fuel for the fire.... And we go sumpin' like this, hit it...." (--tone loc) So I'm reading my EMUSIC-L backlog, and an easy question comes up: do I want to get a Mac and a sampler, or a W30? (An easy question, that is, if you fulfill two requirements: (a) you know what the questioner wants it for, and (b) you don't have a guy as sharp as Nick the Slick watching you for that fatal mistake you made in (a)....) So I say: >>Go with the Mac and the sampler, no question. And Nick, who's been waiting for an opening like this for at least a year, sez: >Hmm, perhaps I'm in a funny mood or something, but I feel like playing >devil's advocate here, a little. To which I reply, fine fine fine. I'm ready when you are, kid. Give me your best shot. |-> Hit it! ***** > Do I like the idea of the W30? Well, I quite like the package. We are >two keyboardists who will be playing live concerts next year. I have >two keyboards, my associate has three. I have 6 synths, my associate has >4. I think we'd find a W30 rather useful; it provides a sampling capability, >which neither of us has; it provides another keyboard, which is a good thing >since it would mean less MIDI routing and processing during a live session >(we have this fear of hung notes, stuck pitch-benders, crashed Cyclones, >Matrix 6's suddenly put into Omni mode by screams from crashed Cyclones, (N.B. Nick, we gotta do something about your Oberphobia, he said, waving the smoke away from his burning Xk....) >etc. etc. [as an aside, I'd be happy to start a thread of discussion >about what you can and can't trust for live use...]). And the W30 has >a sequencer and disk drive, doesn't it? > I don't think I'd trust the Mac live. I once tried to set up a Mac >for a seminar, and it died on its feet. Admittedly, it had a cowboy memory >upgrade which are known to be dodgy, but it's still a fear. Are others >out there quite happy to gig Macs? I feel that a unit built to gigging >standards (?) with a floppy drive is a safer bet. Let's get this one salient and well-reasoned argument out of the way quickly, so we can spend the rest of this post in mindless namecalling and invective. A keyboard with a lot of onboard dinguses, if well set up and easy to use, is a big boon to a live performance. I won't argue with that. A keyboard with a lot of onboard dinguses, if well set up and easy to use, is a Godsend to the starting e-musician who can learn about a lot of basic concepts of e-music (programming or sample editing, effects usage, mixing and multitimbrality, etc etc) in a single box with a single manual on a single stand in the corner of his apartment that barely has room enough for the bed as it is. I won't argue with that, either. But for a studio with a little extra room and dreams of expanding into bigger and better things, a keyboard with a lot of extra dinguses may not prove to be the best way to approach things. One gets so used to the way such a device works that one is almost fearful to add to it or supplement it, for fear of suddenly "making life difficult." Gah! The fact is that live use puts different demands on equipment than studio or learning use. (I'd love to discuss roadability of equipment: more later.) The MIDI live setup *must* be reliable and straightforward, and I can see where an all-in-one box could make life simpler. But I once asked a friend who gigged in bars with a big setup on a regular basis what he used as a roadable sequencer, and he said, "That," and pointed at his Mac. It's a matter of opinion what they can and can't do. I wouldn't take one along, because any computer I end up owning would be half my wife's and she wouldn't let me. But that's no reason to cripple myself in the safety of my own home by choosing a keyboard with a built-in sequencer over a Mac! Remember what this guy said! "Should I get a W30 or a Mac?" If it's a choice between a studio with a computer or a studio without a computer, then for Eris's sake go with the computer! They're just too damn useful to be without. For live gigs, if that's ALL or virtually ALL you do, they may be less suitable. But in the vast majority of cases, I'd think not. Keep in mind, Nick: you already have a Mac, so it's easy to imagine taking a W30 with you to a gig. But a W30 to run a studio like yours, alone? Puh-lease! >>In the rush for the chic sophistication of the all-in-one workstation, >>users have forgotten what MIDI was really invented for, namely flexibility. >This is absolutely right. Let me say that the W30 is *not* a >workstation. Period. It's a keyboard sequencer/sampler with a floppy >drive. It is nothing else. If you think you can buy one of these as a >cheap Fairlight and do all your music on it, you're probably going to >be disappointed. My situation is that I have a number of synth >modules, both digital and analog, and it would be useful to have an >extra keyboard, some sampling capability, and a reliable sequence >playback machine that I can download from the Mac beforehand. LIES! LIES LIES LIES! THE W30 *IS* A WORKSTATION! IT IS IT IS IT *IS*!! ROLAND SAYS SO, AND THEY HAVE MORE CLOUT THAN NICK DOES, SO I BELIEVE THEIR ADS AND NOT NICK'S LIES LIES *LIES*!!!!!! (whew, that felt good! *pant pant pant* I don't get to play mindless consumer very often.) |-> Obviously Nick is correct here. The problem is that I was advocating just the very solution he's pushed, but from a different standpoint: I like the idea of a reliable downloadable sequencer and a keyboard, but but BUT! The W30 isn't it. Why not? Well, a couple of reasons. If you want real flexibility and reliability, even on stage, buy a master keyboard or two and put all of your sound sources in boxes. Believe it or not, I've only owned one MIDI synth with its own keyboard, and it was an *incredible* pain in the arse to use, so I dumped it. I now control my MIDI analog and digital synths from two voiceless master keyboards, a setup which works well live and in the studio. You can use LOCAL OFF to accomplish the same thing, and I may do so with my next board, but usually most synths just don't have the multi-unit control capability they need for such a job. (see the next paragraphs.) For live use, having some things in the same box is worthwhile: I don't mind synth and drum sounds in the same box, if the same sequencer is playing them both, and a multi-FX unit on board can be handy in certain circumstances. But not a sequencer, God no! Keep it separate and run it to a switcher box. Live gigs are notorious for spiky power; if you lose one of your keyboards, you don't want to lose your sequencer as well and cripple yourself. Get a little standalone that you can dump to from your Mac (you already bought your Mac, right? 'Cause you listened to ME and not Nick, right? Good!), and save hassle. And lastly, you don't want the W30 as a master for two instrument-specific reasons; it hasn't got any usable left-hand expression controls, and it's DEAD while you're loading samples! Can you live with sixty-second gaps in your keyboard's duty? >I would hope that these things are more open-ended than that. For example, >I would hope that the W30 would allow me to run some sampled percussion >sequences from its sequencer, while letting me play my lovely analog >Super JX module from its keyboard. The potential drawbacks of a machine like >this are that the quality and flexibility of the individual components >may have been compromised. For instance, it's possible that the W30/S-330 >has the same silly partitioned memory scheme as the S-10, which would >be a shame. On the plus side, I would hope that the physical all-in-one-ness >of the '30 would make it economical...? $3500 or $2500, I forget which. Either way, it's too costly for what you get. I'm sorry, but the S-330 is a wimpy sampler, and isn't suitable for much of anything in my book, module or keyboard. (THAT'S AN OPINION!) And why get a master box that you don't like? Features won't save sounds; that's why I'm not controlling my whole studio with a DX7IIFD with a big stinking E! installed. It does EVERYTHING you need, but I hate FM, so.... >>The W30's advantages are easy to delineate. It's small, selfcontained, and >>sturdy. If you take it to a gig, your carrying and wiring hassles will be >>minimal. >This is a big plus, I think. I have two keyboards, 7 MIDI sound generators, >3 MIDI fx processors, a patchbay, and various other bits and pieces, and the >Mac of course. I use 16 mains outlets and have approaching 100 cables in >my set-up. Moving this stuff to a live gig is going to be a bit of a >nightmare. No less, getting it all working once it's moved. I spent two >hours a couple of weeks ago tracking down a MIDI comms error. One of the >few dozen MIDI cables had died. After that, I went out and bought a >Studiomaster MA36 MIDI analyser (lots of flashing lights, you'd love it, >metlay!). Yeah, probably. Your easiest solution, Nick my lad, would be to cut your gear list in half, and send what you don't need to me. |-> But have you stopped to think that W30 or no, you're adding MORE clutter to your setup, and you'll have to reconfigure for the W30 in a big way? What about sample memory vs. sequence memory? You're not saving any MIDI cabling: take out the Mac, put in the W30. And you'll sacrifice all of your hard work to get the Mac to control the whole shebang! My statement applied to the person who had little or nothing beyond the W30, and needed it to be most or all of his or her arsenal. For you, it's a waste of time, space and cash. So there. Nyah! >>With a separate sampler and a Mac, you have the problems of wiring up the >>system, tweaking it, making sure your MIDI cables are hooked up, and getting >>the proper software and firmware to do what you want to do best. Now, let's be >>honest: those are major hassles, and the learning curve is steep. But you end >>up with the tremendous power of having your system hand-built and fine-tuned >>to the way YOU work. >The learning curve is steep, and not helped by the ideosyncrasies of >some of the modules (I'm convinced that the Cyclone is so named because of >the effect it has on any MIDI data stream it comes into contact with). Mine works fine. What should I be looking for? >It's taken me over a year to get my system into a reasonable shape >(that includes writing the generic editor/librarian). But, now I'm getting >towards that elusive goal of Integration, I'm starting to reap the >rewards. For fun, I spent yesterday trying to simulate the opening few >seconds of the film Blade Runner, with those deep drums and distant synth >motif, and had my editor/librarian showing me the MKS-70 and D-110 >params at the same time. But, getting a computer-based studio to this >state can be a massive task. And you're going to leave it behind when you gig? And you suggest that our original poster do the same? Arf! >>Want better sounds, or different sounds? Add another >>module. Your studio grows a bit, and the Mac handles the new arrival the way >>it handles everything else you have already. >Maybe. Some units are no trouble. Some are a constant long drawn-out >battle. I gave up on my Simmons SPM 8:2 because it kept humming, >whistling, zipping and generally breaking. I have some mixed feelings >about the Cyclone because its concept of legal MIDI is different from >anything else's. And the Super-JX MIDI spec. is bug-ridden, period. >I'll forgive the JX, though, because it sounds *superb*. And what if the W30 has bugs (and it does)? Then what? You're crippled! >The thing I have against samplers is that you can't treat a sampler as >a tabula rasa. [...] True. >If the W30 is "impenetrable", that's a real shame. If it's a single box >containing some independent units, then that's fine. But they're the WRONG units, for live master work. You want MIDI control, maybe sounds, and MAYBE effects.... but NOT a sequncer, and NOT a sampler. >But it sure ain't no "workstation". YES IT IS, DAMMIT! THAT'S HOW IT'S BEING SOLD! AND THAT'S THE PROBLEM! It wouldn't be so bad if they took the approach of, say, Kawai, which tells you what the K4 can do and lets you make your own decision as to whether or not it's a "workstation." But they're selling it as a synth to end all synth setups: buy one and be happy forever! And that's my main gripe. The novice has to learn for himself how to build a personal MIDI system, and some firms are now actively discouraging it. Pfui! My recommendations: Get a Mac, a rackmount sampler, and a good MIDI synth (not a sampler) with LOCAL OFF and a decent MIDI control spec. I stand by them, and I'll bet that Nick would too, if he weren't having so much fun playing off of my insecurities. How about it? metlay | K4=synth+FX+drums (the "m.m." stands for | T1=synth+FX+drums+seq+drive "my moniker's") | VFXSD=synth+FX+seq+drive metlay@pittvms.BITNET | W30=sampler+seq+drive metlay@vms.cis.pitt.EDU | Xpander=SYNTH GODLIKE SYNTH AND ONLY SYNTH! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 89 17:07:23 BST From: Nick Rothwell Subject: analog drum machines: the TR808 and its cousins 23 Oct 89 00:08:00 EST <6911.8910231558@lfcs.ed.ac.uk >The first drum machines that were widely commercially available and could be >programmed by their users were the rhythm boxes made by Roland in the very >early '80s. So what about all that fantastic gear Kraftwerk were using back in the mid-70's? Things like precambrian Octapads, issuing forth splashes of white noise and resonant filter sweeps? I think Kraftwerk's syndrums date back to around the time of Autobahn, ca. 1973. Of course, these things were played live, not sequenced. The analog synth percussion on Die Mensch Maschine is superb (not to mention the locomotive percussion from Trans Europe Express). Nick. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 89 13:37:00 EST From: METLAY@PITTVMS.BITNET Subject: RE: analog drum machines: the TR808 and its cousins They were all analog synths triggered by pads, and every last ever-lovin' one of them was custom built. Kraftwerk didn't start relying on gear built by others for their drumming until Computer-World, and you can see what it got them (ugh). I was referring to programmable rhythm devices (rather like Samantha Fox |-> ). metlay ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 89 17:42:31 EDT From: "Kurt A. Geisel" Subject: Re: analog drum machines: the TR808 and its cousins What I have often wondered is if there was anything really special about the analog architecture of analog beatboxes which would prevent you from easily patching duplicate sounds on a standard analog synth. Did they have special filters or something? - Kurt Kurt Geisel SNAIL : Carnegie Mellon University 65 Lambeth Dr. ARPA : kg19+@andrew.cmu.edu Pittsburgh, PA 15241 UUCP : uunet!nfsun!kgeisel "I will not be pushed, filed, indexed, stamped, BIX : kgeisel briefed, debriefed, or numbered!" - The Prisoner ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 89 17:51:00 EST From: METLAY@PITTVMS.BITNET Subject: Re: analog drum machines: the TR808 and its cousins Kurt Geisel writes: >What I have often wondered is if there was anything really special >about the analog architecture of analog beatboxes which would prevent >you from easily patching duplicate sounds on a standard analog synth. >Did they have special filters or something? This from a dude who has access to Art Springer's sound library?! |-> metlay PS> If you want to know what this joke means, buy an Xpander and join the Xpander Users' Group by sending a SASE to MysTech Productions P.O.Box 81175 Pittsburgh, PA 15217-0675 You'll be glad you did.... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 89 17:54:00 EST From: METLAY@PITTVMS.BITNET Subject: On workstations. Fuel for the fire.... And we go sumpin' like this, hit it...." (--tone loc) So I'm reading my EMUSIC-L backlog, and an easy question comes up: do I want to get a Mac and a sampler, or a W30? (An easy question, that is, if you fulfill two requirements: (a) you know what the questioner wants it for, and (b) you don't have a guy as sharp as Nick the Slick watching you for that fatal mistake you made in (a)....) So I say: >>Go with the Mac and the sampler, no question. And Nick, who's been waiting for an opening like this for at least a year, sez: >Hmm, perhaps I'm in a funny mood or something, but I feel like playing >devil's advocate here, a little. To which I reply, fine fine fine. I'm ready when you are, kid. Give me your best shot. |-> Hit it! ***** > Do I like the idea of the W30? Well, I quite like the package. We are >two keyboardists who will be playing live concerts next year. I have >two keyboards, my associate has three. I have 6 synths, my associate has >4. I think we'd find a W30 rather useful; it provides a sampling capability, >which neither of us has; it provides another keyboard, which is a good thing >since it would mean less MIDI routing and processing during a live session >(we have this fear of hung notes, stuck pitch-benders, crashed Cyclones, >Matrix 6's suddenly put into Omni mode by screams from crashed Cyclones, (N.B. Nick, we gotta do something about your Oberphobia, he said, waving the smoke away from his burning Xk....) >etc. etc. [as an aside, I'd be happy to start a thread of discussion >about what you can and can't trust for live use...]). And the W30 has >a sequencer and disk drive, doesn't it? > I don't think I'd trust the Mac live. I once tried to set up a Mac >for a seminar, and it died on its feet. Admittedly, it had a cowboy memory >upgrade which are known to be dodgy, but it's still a fear. Are others >out there quite happy to gig Macs? I feel that a unit built to gigging >standards (?) with a floppy drive is a safer bet. Let's get this one salient and well-reasoned argument out of the way quickly, so we can spend the rest of this post in mindless namecalling and invective. A keyboard with a lot of onboard dinguses, if well set up and easy to use, is a big boon to a live performance. I won't argue with that. A keyboard with a lot of onboard dinguses, if well set up and easy to use, is a Godsend to the starting e-musician who can learn about a lot of basic concepts of e-music (programming or sample editing, effects usage, mixing and multitimbrality, etc etc) in a single box with a single manual on a single stand in the corner of his apartment that barely has room enough for the bed as it is. I won't argue with that, either. But for a studio with a little extra room and dreams of expanding into bigger and better things, a keyboard with a lot of extra dinguses may not prove to be the best way to approach things. One gets so used to the way such a device works that one is almost fearful to add to it or supplement it, for fear of suddenly "making life difficult." Gah! The fact is that live use puts different demands on equipment than studio or learning use. (I'd love to discuss roadability of equipment: more later.) The MIDI live setup *must* be reliable and straightforward, and I can see where an all-in-one box could make life simpler. But I once asked a friend who gigged in bars with a big setup on a regular basis what he used as a roadable sequencer, and he said, "That," and pointed at his Mac. It's a matter of opinion what they can and can't do. I wouldn't take one along, because any computer I end up owning would be half my wife's and she wouldn't let me. But that's no reason to cripple myself in the safety of my own home by choosing a keyboard with a built-in sequencer over a Mac! Remember what this guy said! "Should I get a W30 or a Mac?" If it's a choice between a studio with a computer or a studio without a computer, then for Eris's sake go with the computer! They're just too damn useful to be without. For live gigs, if that's ALL or virtually ALL you do, they may be less suitable. But in the vast majority of cases, I'd think not. Keep in mind, Nick: you already have a Mac, so it's easy to imagine taking a W30 with you to a gig. But a W30 to run a studio like yours, alone? Puh-lease! >>In the rush for the chic sophistication of the all-in-one workstation, >>users have forgotten what MIDI was really invented for, namely flexibility. >This is absolutely right. Let me say that the W30 is *not* a >workstation. Period. It's a keyboard sequencer/sampler with a floppy >drive. It is nothing else. If you think you can buy one of these as a >cheap Fairlight and do all your music on it, you're probably going to >be disappointed. My situation is that I have a number of synth >modules, both digital and analog, and it would be useful to have an >extra keyboard, some sampling capability, and a reliable sequence >playback machine that I can download from the Mac beforehand. LIES! LIES LIES LIES! THE W30 *IS* A WORKSTATION! IT IS IT IS IT *IS*!! ROLAND SAYS SO, AND THEY HAVE MORE CLOUT THAN NICK DOES, SO I BELIEVE THEIR ADS AND NOT NICK'S LIES LIES *LIES*!!!!!! (whew, that felt good! *pant pant pant* I don't get to play mindless consumer very often.) |-> Obviously Nick is correct here. The problem is that I was advocating just the very solution he's pushed, but from a different standpoint: I like the idea of a reliable downloadable sequencer and a keyboard, but but BUT! The W30 isn't it. Why not? Well, a couple of reasons. If you want real flexibility and reliability, even on stage, buy a master keyboard or two and put all of your sound sources in boxes. Believe it or not, I've only owned one MIDI synth with its own keyboard, and it was an *incredible* pain in the arse to use, so I dumped it. I now control my MIDI analog and digital synths from two voiceless master keyboards, a setup which works well live and in the studio. You can use LOCAL OFF to accomplish the same thing, and I may do so with my next board, but usually most synths just don't have the multi-unit control capability they need for such a job. (see the next paragraphs.) For live use, having some things in the same box is worthwhile: I don't mind synth and drum sounds in the same box, if the same sequencer is playing them both, and a multi-FX unit on board can be handy in certain circumstances. But not a sequencer, God no! Keep it separate and run it to a switcher box. Live gigs are notorious for spiky power; if you lose one of your keyboards, you don't want to lose your sequencer as well and cripple yourself. Get a little standalone that you can dump to from your Mac (you already bought your Mac, right? 'Cause you listened to ME and not Nick, right? Good!), and save hassle. And lastly, you don't want the W30 as a master for two instrument-specific reasons; it hasn't got any usable left-hand expression controls, and it's DEAD while you're loading samples! Can you live with sixty-second gaps in your keyboard's duty? >I would hope that these things are more open-ended than that. For example, >I would hope that the W30 would allow me to run some sampled percussion >sequences from its sequencer, while letting me play my lovely analog >Super JX module from its keyboard. The potential drawbacks of a machine like >this are that the quality and flexibility of the individual components >may have been compromised. For instance, it's possible that the W30/S-330 >has the same silly partitioned memory scheme as the S-10, which would >be a shame. On the plus side, I would hope that the physical all-in-one-ness >of the '30 would make it economical...? $3500 or $2500, I forget which. Either way, it's too costly for what you get. I'm sorry, but the S-330 is a wimpy sampler, and isn't suitable for much of anything in my book, module or keyboard. (THAT'S AN OPINION!) And why get a master box that you don't like? Features won't save sounds; that's why I'm not controlling my whole studio with a DX7IIFD with a big stinking E! installed. It does EVERYTHING you need, but I hate FM, so.... >>The W30's advantages are easy to delineate. It's small, selfcontained, and >>sturdy. If you take it to a gig, your carrying and wiring hassles will be >>minimal. >This is a big plus, I think. I have two keyboards, 7 MIDI sound generators, >3 MIDI fx processors, a patchbay, and various other bits and pieces, and the >Mac of course. I use 16 mains outlets and have approaching 100 cables in >my set-up. Moving this stuff to a live gig is going to be a bit of a >nightmare. No less, getting it all working once it's moved. I spent two >hours a couple of weeks ago tracking down a MIDI comms error. One of the >few dozen MIDI cables had died. After that, I went out and bought a >Studiomaster MA36 MIDI analyser (lots of flashing lights, you'd love it, >metlay!). Yeah, probably. Your easiest solution, Nick my lad, would be to cut your gear list in half, and send what you don't need to me. |-> But have you stopped to think that W30 or no, you're adding MORE clutter to your setup, and you'll have to reconfigure for the W30 in a big way? What about sample memory vs. sequence memory? You're not saving any MIDI cabling: take out the Mac, put in the W30. And you'll sacrifice all of your hard work to get the Mac to control the whole shebang! My statement applied to the person who had little or nothing beyond the W30, and needed it to be most or all of his or her arsenal. For you, it's a waste of time, space and cash. So there. Nyah! >>With a separate sampler and a Mac, you have the problems of wiring up the >>system, tweaking it, making sure your MIDI cables are hooked up, and getting >>the proper software and firmware to do what you want to do best. Now, let's be >>honest: those are major hassles, and the learning curve is steep. But you end >>up with the tremendous power of having your system hand-built and fine-tuned >>to the way YOU work. >The learning curve is steep, and not helped by the ideosyncrasies of >some of the modules (I'm convinced that the Cyclone is so named because of >the effect it has on any MIDI data stream it comes into contact with). Mine works fine. What should I be looking for? >It's taken me over a year to get my system into a reasonable shape >(that includes writing the generic editor/librarian). But, now I'm getting >towards that elusive goal of Integration, I'm starting to reap the >rewards. For fun, I spent yesterday trying to simulate the opening few >seconds of the film Blade Runner, with those deep drums and distant synth >motif, and had my editor/librarian showing me the MKS-70 and D-110 >params at the same time. But, getting a computer-based studio to this >state can be a massive task. And you're going to leave it behind when you gig? And you suggest that our original poster do the same? Arf! >>Want better sounds, or different sounds? Add another >>module. Your studio grows a bit, and the Mac handles the new arrival the way >>it handles everything else you have already. >Maybe. Some units are no trouble. Some are a constant long drawn-out >battle. I gave up on my Simmons SPM 8:2 because it kept humming, >whistling, zipping and generally breaking. I have some mixed feelings >about the Cyclone because its concept of legal MIDI is different from >anything else's. And the Super-JX MIDI spec. is bug-ridden, period. >I'll forgive the JX, though, because it sounds *superb*. And what if the W30 has bugs (and it does)? Then what? You're crippled! >The thing I have against samplers is that you can't treat a sampler as >a tabula rasa. [...] True. >If the W30 is "impenetrable", that's a real shame. If it's a single box >containing some independent units, then that's fine. But they're the WRONG units, for live master work. You want MIDI control, maybe sounds, and MAYBE effects.... but NOT a sequncer, and NOT a sampler. >But it sure ain't no "workstation". YES IT IS, DAMMIT! THAT'S HOW IT'S BEING SOLD! AND THAT'S THE PROBLEM! It wouldn't be so bad if they took the approach of, say, Kawai, which tells you what the K4 can do and lets you make your own decision as to whether or not it's a "workstation." But they're selling it as a synth to end all synth setups: buy one and be happy forever! And that's my main gripe. The novice has to learn for himself how to build a personal MIDI system, and some firms are now actively discouraging it. Pfui! My recommendations: Get a Mac, a rackmount sampler, and a good MIDI synth (not a sampler) with LOCAL OFF and a decent MIDI control spec. I stand by them, and I'll bet that Nick would too, if he weren't having so much fun playing off of my insecurities. How about it? metlay | K4=synth+FX+drums (the "m.m." stands for | T1=synth+FX+drums+seq+drive "my moniker's") | VFXSD=synth+FX+seq+drive metlay@pittvms.BITNET | W30=sampler+seq+drive metlay@vms.cis.pitt.EDU | Xpander=SYNTH GODLIKE SYNTH AND ONLY SYNTH! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Oct 89 17:32:24 BST From: Nick Rothwell Subject: On workstations. Fuel for the fire.... 23 Oct 89 11:19:00 EST <9441.8910240042@lfcs.ed.ac.uk >To which I reply, fine fine fine. I'm ready when you are, kid. Give me your >best shot. |-> As any readers of rec.music.synth on USEnet will know by now, Metlay and I have this habit of getting into long detailed arguments about a topic on which, as it happens, we both agree...! The usual problem is that we start from different premises, as I think has happened here... So, on with the show... >The fact is that live use puts different demands on equipment than studio or >learning use. (I'd love to discuss roadability of equipment: more later.) I think this is where we started from different premises. For live work, we could probably use another keyboard, could certainly use a simple load-beforehand-and-go sequencer, and as for the sampler, well I don't know too much about the S-330 architecture or quality, so I won't comment on this one. For studio work, I find a computer essential. I use the Mac for sequencing and sound design, as well as storing patches, notes and memos about MIDI routing and mixer settings, and so on. If (a big "if") every instrument I own had a big display and was easy to make use of, then I could probably get on for a while, until I filled up the internal patch memory. Then what? Even if the machine has a built-in floppy drive, how do you catalog and move patches around? And, does *every* MIDI device have a big display and a floppy drive with decent editing and librarian firmware? Would you like a dozen floppy drives? So, a computer is a must. >But I once asked a friend who >gigged in bars with a big setup on a regular basis what he used as a roadable >sequencer, and he said, "That," and pointed at his Mac. I've never seen anybody gig in a bar with a computer, or a sequencer for that matter. I think the tech level of live music over here is lower. (I'm not implying that that's a bad thing, by the way.) I'd like to have the Mac around when setting up a live show, so I could load and check things out, but I don't know about actual sequencing while playing. I've had too many problems with the serial connectors on the back of the machine coming loose and dropping notes. >Keep it separate and run it to a switcher box. Live gigs are notorious for >spiky power; if you lose one of your keyboards, you don't want to lose your >sequencer as well and cripple yourself. Ok, that's a good point. I'll be using a D-50 and pf85 as master keyboards (with Local Off), and something like an Elka CR-99 MIDI disk player (if I can find somewhere outside Italy that actually *stocks* the thing) running into my MX-8 switcher. >and it's DEAD while you're loading >samples! Can you live with sixty-second gaps in your keyboard's duty? Ah. This shows that the thing isn't as flexible as I thought, and seems to have this workstation mentality bolted in, which is a bit of a shame. >But have you stopped to think that W30 or no, you're adding MORE clutter to >your setup, and you'll have to reconfigure for the W30 in a big way? What >about sample memory vs. sequence memory? More proof that it's not as flexible as it ought to be. Oh well. But, is it that difficult to configure? [about the Cyclone] >Mine works fine. What should I be looking for? I have yet to get a SysEx dump out of it properly. For example, it seems to sprinkle timing messages into its SysEx messages, which confuses the MA36 and Apple's MIDI Manager. Other problems are probably due to brief MIDI loops as I switch configurations with the MX-8. I have managed to crash the Cyclone a few times, as well as get it to run slow in some kind of locked mode. If I send a reset from the MX-8, the All Notes Off message going through the Cyclone results in the Matrix-6R going into OMNI mode. This one has me a bit confused... >And you're going to leave it behind when you gig? And you suggest that our >original poster do the same? Arf! Soon, I'm going to have a couple of set-up-break-down exercises to see if it's possible to get this stuff moved from location A to location B and working in a short period of time. I'll let you know how I get on... >My recommendations: Get a Mac, a rackmount sampler, and a good MIDI synth (not >a sampler) with LOCAL OFF and a decent MIDI control spec. I stand by them, and >I'll bet that Nick would too, if he weren't having so much fun playing off of >my insecurities. Is that what I was doing? That wasn't my intention. Anyway, I'll leave you with Metlay's sig, which sums up my original point, really... > | K4=synth+FX+drums > | T1=synth+FX+drums+seq+drive > | VFXSD=synth+FX+seq+drive > | W30=sampler+seq+drive Nick. Sorry? What last line? Oh well, if you insist... > | Xpander=SYNTH GODLIKE SYNTH AND ONLY SYNTH! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Oct 89 13:52:14 EDT From: "Kurt A. Geisel" Subject: Re: On workstations. Fuel for the fire.... >live gigging with computers As an anecdote which doesn't necessarily add anything to the argument: As many of you know Tangerine Dream now does "live gigging" (if you could call it that with the amount of live sequencing they do these days) with no fewer than 5 Atari STs. During the North American Optical Race tour, (I think it was Toronto) they lost power during the performance, but the 5 Ataris kept going! What had happened was their European/US (220/110 VAC) power transformer had blown, but the Ataris didn't need the converter. So, all the synths died but the Ataris kept happily sequencing.... Which brings me to my point. Computers are just regular pieces of electronics and are no different than synths. There may have been a time that your computer was so much more complicated than your synth that there was more that could go wrong with it. Now days your typical synth "workstation" is just as complicated, if not more so, than a Mac. If you use synths in live gigging, you are probably relying an its internal computer and disk drive as well as its sound generation circuitry. The real decision in what to use for a live gig is what you are prepared to deal with. If you are careful and follow all those "safe computer practice" rules, your computer should be no less reliable than a synth. However, if you are uncomfortable or inexperienced with the computer, you probably shouldn't be relying on it. The same stands for a synth- you have to know your machine and be able to deal with any problems without a huge delay. If disaster strikes, as it can with any piece of electronic equipment, you are a victim of chance. Only guys like Michael Jackson can afford to keep hundreds of technicians and two truckloads of backup equipment. But then, your high school metal band could lose its amp with equal ease. - Kurt Kurt Geisel SNAIL : Carnegie Mellon University 65 Lambeth Dr. ARPA : kg19+@andrew.cmu.edu Pittsburgh, PA 15241 UUCP : uunet!nfsun!kgeisel "I will not be pushed, filed, indexed, stamped, BIX : kgeisel briefed, debriefed, or numbered!" - The Prisoner ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Oct 89 14:24:00 EDT From: a Pirate twin Subject: gigging with sequencers ... I've been playing live with a Roland MC-500 for two and a half years, almost every weekend, and so far no hardware problems. The unit is solid, and reliable, and seems to keep on ticking no matter how cruddy the power. BUT, I'd never think of going on stage with a MAC or a PC ... not my idea of fun at all. I have enough trouble with my PC at home where it NEVER gets moved ... So much for that. I've been recording lately with a D50. Bloody noisy beast! Anyone have any suggestions for cleaning the thing up a bit. Mine is one of the first units out in Canada ... are the newer ones any better? -brian ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Oct 89 15:36:00 EST From: METLAY@PITTVMS.BITNET Subject: Yippee! I've started an argument! |-> Like the subject line says.... Anyway, thanks to Nick, Brian and Kurt for their perspectives on the subject of playing out with computers vs. hardware gear in live situations. I'd like to point out, however, that my knowledge of the W30's capabilities is somewhat limited, as I've only played one for about an hour and read through the manual quickly. Your mileage may vary. (BTW, will the poster whose original query of "Mac or W30" started this please Email me and tell me (a) what he needs this stuff for (b) if any of my rantings did any good (c) if any of my rantings made any sense? Thanx.) But a good and worthwhile topic of discussion has hit the ground and taken off at a dead run: namely that of live electronic music setups. It's all well and good to sit in a studio and have fun, but live work has its own challenges and merits. Some thoughts to get things started: To play Devil's Advocate against myself(!), I'd like to bring up the possibility of the tremendous utility a "workstation" could have in a live situation, given the right features. My gripes against the W30 were: -as workstations go, it's pretty lame (no effects, lousy ROM sounds, lousy OS) -as samplers go, it's pretty lame (bad memory allocation, iffy [IMO!] samples) -as controllers go, it's pretty lame (dead while loading samples, poor bender) -as an alternative to a Mac in a studio for someone who must choose one or the other, it's pretty lame (see my last post). It should be pointed out, though, that for someone in a situation like Nick's, with automated effects changes, program dumps, etc. as part of a live sequence package, a "workstation" of the right sort could prove very handy. For instance, there are three workstations on the market that combine a synth, a sequencer, a floppy drive for storage, onboard effects processing, and separate drum sounds: the Korg T series, the Ensoniq VFX-SD, and the Yamaha V50. With instruments like these, if their MIDI spex are up to snuff, one could have LOCAL OFF and run several outboard modules, like a drum box, a Proteus, or even an Xpander or two. The whole setup could be very small and portable: in fact, two workstations MIDIed to one another and leapfrogging sequences could conceivably do an entire show with a very dense mix! I've gotta look into this, the next time I have $8000 to spend.... For those who prefer to do some or all of their processing or sequencing externally, there are a set of keyboards that have "some of the above": the Kawai K4 has a synth, drum sounds, and effects, as does the Ensoniq VFX. The Korg M1 adds a sequencer to the above, and other synths will be out soon with some or all of these features, like the new Yamaha (ho hum) and the new Peavey DPM3 (haw haw). A keyboardist could pick up a master keyboard to fill in the gaps in his setup, if he has a good sequencer or a drum unit already, etc. Personally, I prefer as complete a modularity as possible in my setup. This has the ill effect of maximizing items that need to be checked out, but it minimizes the loss of sound quality if something goes down. My setup, as of now, is as follows: Two master keyboards run MIDI signals through a MIDI switcher to three slave modules. Along the way, there are two MIDI processors available to be switched into the data stream should they be needed. A separate drum machine and sequencer are synched to one another and to the MIDI data stream's time code. Effects processors are also accessible for various control options. This system has everything in a different box, meaning that the switcher is full to the brim and always in use. A workstation would allow me, in live performance, to remove one of my masterboards (which is less than reliable) and my drum machine as well (assuming its onboard drum sounds were adequate), and perhaps remove the sequencer, although this is a touchy issue with respect to the MIDI processors. That'd slim things down a lot without sacrificing sound or features too badly, but centralizes things to the point where I'd be very nervous about the workstation as the linchpin of the whole setup. I also don't know if my unique composition and performance methods would survive such a change recognizably; so much of what I do is based on the old gear I have... On the other hand, good composition transcends technology, so maybe it'd be a blessing of sorts. But you won't see me dumping my gear any time soon. As for what I've found roadable: my Yamaha, Roland, and Alesis gear has stood up well under hard use, and so has my Korg (although in my opinion they don't make their rackmount casings sturdy enough). My Oberheim Xpanders and Cyclone, which were made in America under tight quality control, have been trouble-free from day one, but my Xk, which was re-engineered in Japan without the knowledge of the Oberheim R&D staff (a dark period in their history), has been nothing but trouble... I wouldn't dare rely on it in a live show! Speaking of which, I'm looking to replace the stupid thing eventually, and between my Cyclone and perhaps a Systemizer I can duplicate or exceed its MIDI setup, but I'm finding the actual physical keyboard to be tougher to replace. Help me out, people: five octave unweighted keyboard, velocity and release velocity, mono aftertouch, pitch and mod controls and at least one slider that can transmit MIDI Control Changes without altering the setting of the internal sounds, if any, and a split to transmit on two separate MIDI channels with LOCAL OFF would be nice but not essential. Anything out there? Even a workstation would be okay. |-> metlay | THE ULTIMATE WORKSTATION: (the "m.m." stands for | "my moniker's") | An Eclipse controlling four Xpanders. metlay@pittvms.BITNET | metlay@vms.cis.pitt.EDU | Yowza! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 89 11:54:55 LCL From: ERL@SARA.NL Subject: Re: Yippee! I started an argument :-> > package, a "workstation" of the right sort could prove very handy. For > instance, there are three workstations on the market that combine a synth, a > sequencer, a floppy drive for storage, onboard effects processing, and > separate drum sounds: the Korg T series, the Ensoniq VFX-SD, and the Yamaha > V50. With instruments like these, if their MIDI spex are up to snuff, one (stuff deleted) > metlay Question: how come the Roland D-series is so seldom mentioned on this list? According to the sales leaflets, the D20 sports a "L.A" synth, percussion, sequencer, effects, floppy drive, and riddim. Looks like a workstation to me. Or is it a (snigger) "home series unit"? The D20 has some lesser relatives (D10: same, without sequencer and floppy drive, D5: synth and percussion only). All are multitimbral. Opinions, argments, info, flames? Please? Question: I am looking for cheap, velocity-sensitive drum pads that have no other function than generating a (user-definable) MIDI message when struck. No sound generation etc. Do such pads exist? (Yes, I would think, except I can't find any). Could anybody shed some light on this? Question: wouldn't a VME-like MIDI equipment rack/backplane standard be useful? All yer gear in one rack, minimizing cables, noise, dropping notes, and equipment footprint. Sorry, just an idea. Edo "Down With Cables" Roos Lindgreen e-mail: erl@sara.nl Amsterdam ____________________________________________________ The Netherlands Oh freddled gruntbuggly, thy nacturations are to me! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 89 09:21:00 EST From: Chris Iverson Subject: Midi pitfalls? Maybe I've just been lucky (knock on my head), but I have yet to have equipment die on me during a live gig. Then again, I've never used MIDI live either. Soon, however, as soon as my local music dealer can get me a Proteus, I'll be forced to bite the bullet and start (shudder) *sequencing* on stage. My setup will still be pretty simple compared to what's been described by metlay et al: a Mac Plus for sequencing, Roland MKB-300 master keyboard, Korg DW-6000, and the Proteus. To my admittedly naive mind this seems like it will be a piece of cake to hook up and get running, but now you guys have me pretty nervous about the great unknowns I may run into. Anyone want to recount some of your horror stories, with perhaps an aside about common problems to watch out for? -chris ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 89 12:02:00 EST From: METLAY@PITTVMS.BITNET Subject: Pads, standards, and L/A Edo sez: Question: how come the Roland D-series is so seldom mentioned on this list? According to the sales leaflets, the D20 sports a "L.A" synth, percussion, sequencer, effects, floppy drive, and riddim. Looks like a workstation to me. Or is it a (snigger) "home series unit"? The D20 has some lesser relatives (D10: same, without sequencer and floppy drive, D5: synth and percussion only). All are multitimbral. Opinions, argments, info, flames? Please? And I sez: Answer: Yes, the D20 qualifies in terms of features. I have a personal bias against the D series that I let affect my judgement. Sorry. Edo sez: Question: I am looking for cheap, velocity-sensitive drum pads that have no other function than generating a (user-definable) MIDI message when struck. No sound generation etc. Do such pads exist? (Yes, I would think, except I can't find any). Could anybody shed some light on this? And I sez: The cheapest is the Yamaha DD5. Four pads that send MIDI notes with velocity. The Boss MIDI Pads and Handypad unit would be next up in price. Fancier, but more costly. For a punter, the DD5 is a dream come true. Edo sez: Question: wouldn't a VME-like MIDI equipment rack/backplane standard be useful? All yer gear in one rack, minimizing cables, noise, dropping notes, and equipment footprint. Sorry, just an idea. And I sez: Good luck. MIDI had a hard enough time getting off the ground, and all the hardware they had to standardize there were optoisolators and 5-pin jacks, and there were people who even fought those (e.g. Carmine "I don't care what the rest of the industry says, I'm doing it my way and tough dirt for everyone else" Bonnano of Octave-Plateau, who released their first MIDI synth with XLR plugs for MIDI). metlay ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 89 16:43:30 BST From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Midi pitfalls? 25 Oct 89 09:21:00 EST <20778.8910251343@lfcs.ed.ac.uk As far as studio work is concerned, I've only every had a MIDI network die on me due to loose connections, either into/out of the Mac, or a dead cable. That was bad enough though, although I hope its all fixed now. The SPM 8:2 mixer is just unreliable - it will occasionally forget pan and volume levels, and makes nasty zipping noises every now and then, which are generally fixed by turning it off for a while. This makes it useless for live work. At the ABWH concert at the weekend, Rick Wakeman's D-50 went down... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 89 13:28:00 EDT From: a Pirate twin Subject: Master Boards Metlay: You mentioned TWO master keyboards ... one, I known, is a dreaded Xk (yep, still got mine ... now it's into blasting megabytes of MIDI info to my sequencer when recording so I gotta turn it on and off and rerecord the track), but what's the other one? I'm looking for something with 88-keys, weighted keys, etc. ... -brian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 89 13:43:00 CDT From: jeff beer Subject: RE> Midi horrors I don't really perform all that much using MIDI but the only problem I have in my studio and forsee if my computer controller sends irregular MIDI data it can crash my MSB+, which is a midi thru box with a merger and filter. Then I have to turn the power off and restart the MSB+ box. I suppose I should write JL COOPER just to see what they say. I think what happens is that it perhaps receives a spurios SYSEX that just blows it away. However, as long as it is receiving the channel commands in the proper sequence, it is ok. I know musicians who perform with the Alesis sequencer, a handy very portable device, and they seem to do ok. That is a lot more portable than lugging a Mega 2 around, I wish that one could by a monitor more portable than the huge SC1224. I do not want to have to get a STACY. Jeff Beer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 89 13:45:00 CDT From: jeff beer Subject: speaking of mixers... Any comments about TASCAM's MM-1, a rackmounted mixer with some 20 inputs and addition effects sends and returns? It looks pretty good, and they reviewed it in EM in the November issue. Jeff Beer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 89 17:00:00 EDT From: a Pirate twin Subject: re: Midi Horrors My own MIDI horrors (other than my Xk): I have an Akai MIDI patch bay (ME-30, I think) which is four IN, eight OUT, with 16 configuration patches. Quite often it decides it doesn't like the patch number it's on and start flipping about thru the patches randomly. VERY ANNOYING! I am pretty sure it's not receiving program change messages from somewhere, because it supposedly only accepted program change info on one input, which I am not using. Anyone have any ideas on a fix (yes, I've considered getting a new patch bay too ... suggestions on a good one are more than welcome!)???? -brian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 89 02:13:25 BST From: "'Patrick C.K.Tsang'" Subject: ....more on the W-30.... Hello, May I jump onto the train with this W-30/Mac argument ? Firstly, I own the Mac, the D-10, S-330, U-110 and the Oberheim Matrix-6. I have tried to bring the Mac to every gig over last year. It is far too dangerous to bring the Mac to gigs, because the little thing means too much to me to have to suffer life on the road. Please look at two different setups: W-30 (Pianos etc) | D-10 (Synths) | Oberheim Mtx-6 | S-330 (For drums) Macintosh | | JamBox-<----<----<----D-10 (Local off) | | | | U-110 (Pianos, etc) | | | Oberheim Mtx-6 | | | S-330 (For drums) | | | ---->---Thru--->---->-| Apart from the MIDI involved there is also separate power leads required for each of these units, the first setup needs four, second setup needs six. Also think of the value of the equipment running about, the first one about 3,500 pounds sterling, second one over 4,200. However, all the W-30 plus rack units can be flight-cased, and virtually scratch free in journeys, now WHEN DID YOU LAST SEE A FLIGHT CASED MACINTOSH ? From an experienced traveller: travel light ! Patrick. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 89 02:49:00 CDT From: jeff beer Subject: RE MacFlight Regarding Mac's on flights, don't you have a gig bag that can be used to take a Mac carry on? The Mac should be fairly portable. I know they do have some rack mounted computers, PC compatible I believe, but the best way would probably be the Yamaha's C1 (if it hasn't already died) or the Stacy. Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 89 09:39:16 BST PJML@UK.AC.NERC-WALLINGFORD.IBMA From: "Pete Lucas NERC-SWINDON PJML UK.AC.NERC-WALLINGFORD.IBMA" Subject: MIDI horrors? MIDI horrors - i dont actually *use* MIDI but i *DO* use handheld two-way radios. Beware - these can cause MIDI to hang up. Pressing the transmit switch when you're standing next to the band will *NOT* make you popular. If a couple of watts from a handset will do this, maybe a 50-watt police/cab company/ambulance/fire transmitter will do the same? Any experiences of this sort of thing, or could it be a one-off (faulty earthing?) I remember being at a Stones gig in London many years ago, and you could hear occasional taxi despatch calls over the PA. >-=Pete=-< ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 89 08:42:08 EDT From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Midi Horrors 25 Oct 89 17:00:00 EDT <4625.8910260833@lfcs.ed.ac.uk >Anyone have any ideas on a fix (yes, I've >considered getting a new patch bay too ... suggestions on a good one are more >than welcome!)???? My Digital Music MX-8 (bought secondhand for $200) has been no trouble, even given the sort of MIDI abuse I give it. It has some merging capability and transpose/velocity map/filter etc, although I haven't really used these yet. There's also the ability to send out sets of program changes, and a nice reset button which will silence all the attached devices (apart from those which have truly crashed :-() with All Notes Off and proper note off messages, while still routing. It even resets stuck pitch-bend, which is something that is often forgotten. The only real downer is that the display is a pig to read.... AND, this a piece of American gear with a PUBLISHED SYSTEM EXCLUSIVE SPEC! Wow, gosh, cor lumme guv, knock-me-dawn-wiv-a-fevver, wotever next? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 89 11:24:00 EST From: METLAY@PITTVMS.BITNET Subject: Portable Keyboards as MIDI masters >Metlay: > >You mentioned TWO master keyboards ... one, I known, is a dreaded Xk (yep, >still got mine ... now it's into blasting megabytes of MIDI info to my >sequencer when recording so I gotta turn it on and off and rerecord the track), >but what's the other one? I'm looking for something with 88-keys, weighted >keys, etc. ... > >-brian Hee hee hee, hrmf, sorry, sorry, I just couldn't help laughing... I'm afraid my own emergency board falls a bit short of your needs, that's all. It has 45 unweighted keys and you wear it around your neck. Sorry! It's a Roland Axis. There is NO better emergency master keyboard choice out there, bar none. It won't transmit on more than one MIDI channel, but it has tons of available controllers and runs off AC so you don't have battery-health worries. I've had mine since 1985 and have never had a day's trouble with it. Portables in general tend to be GREAT master MIDI system controllers, as they pack a lot of features into a small space, and they are usually quite cheap to have around as spares for big pianoish monstrosities. And as for my Xk, well, is there anyone out there who HASN'T had trouble with an Xk? Mine is working, at least for the moment: anyone wanna make me an offer on it? Seriously! |-< metlay | "I'd like to apologize for my recent claim (the "m.m." stands for | that anyone who didn't use an Xpander or "my moniker's") | Matrix-12 was 'a nonentity.' That's not metlay@pittvms.BITNET | ENTIRELY true, of course...." metlay@vms.cis.pitt.EDU | -- guess who? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 89 17:18:55 BST From: Nick Rothwell Subject: ....more on the W-30.... 26 Oct 89 02:13:25 BST <7697.8910261426@lfcs.ed.ac.uk >WHEN DID YOU LAST SEE A FLIGHT CASED MACINTOSH ? I believe a company in the States will convert a Mac+ to a rack-mount via a process which I don't care to think about. (I wonder what they do with the old Mac+ cases... Helmets? Fish-tanks?) Cost? I think the conversion costs about as much as the original Mac... Nick. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 89 15:20:00 EDT From: a Pirate twin Subject: RE: Portable Keyboards as MIDI masters >Hee hee hee, hrmf, sorry, sorry, I just couldn't help laughing... I'm afraid >my own emergency board falls a bit short of your needs, that's all. It has 45 >unweighted keys and you wear it around your neck. Sorry! > >It's a Roland Axis. There is NO better emergency master keyboard choice out >there, bar none. It won't transmit on more than one MIDI channel, but it has >tons of available controllers and runs off AC so you don't have battery-health >worries. I've had mine since 1985 and have never had a day's trouble with it. Hey, there's an idea I've haven't thought seriously about for awhile ... about all I'd need, other than standard pitch/mod controllers, is a quick program change and MIDI ch. change. I'm also scared to use the Xk on a gig, because it's my main studio board (I can hear Metlay's guffaws from here!), BUT seriously, WHEN IT WORKS the Xk is a powerful little board. I've tried my D-50 as a master, but I'm not happy with the amount of data it spews with any amount of aftertouch enabled (ends up causing timing aberrations in my PC sequencer). I've also used my RD-200, but alas, no pitch/mod wheels. I'll have to check the classifieds ... >And as for my Xk, well, is there anyone out there who HASN'T had trouble with >an Xk? Mine is working, at least for the moment: anyone wanna make me an offer >on it? Seriously! |-< Got some swamp land in Florida you'd like to throw in with it? (nevermind ... I've got a car that's less reliable than my Xk ... don't get around much anymore!) -brian ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Oct 89 02:11:30 BST From: "'Patrick C.K.Tsang'" Subject: D-50 Noise >I've been playing live with a Roland MC-500 for two and a half years, almost >every weekend, and so far no hardware problems. The unit is solid, and >reliable, and seems to keep on ticking no matter how cruddy the power. BUT, >I've been recording lately with a D50. Bloody noisy beast! Anyone have any >suggestions for cleaning the thing up a bit. Mine is one of the first units >out in Canada ... are the newer ones any better? >-brian This seems to be a problem with ALL of the current line of Roland keyboards and rack-mount synths. I would suggest you to turn off all the on-board FX and replace them with quality out-board gear, such as the Alesis MicroVerb and MicroEnhancer (an exciter). Don't use normal EQ which raises the noise along with the trebles. Patrick. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 89 21:41:44 EST From: PRESTON@MOREKYPR.BITNET Subject: Multitrack recorders Anyone out there know of a good place to start looking for a used multitrack recorder? What I need is at least 8-track... but don't have a small fortune to spend. Unfortunately, I live in music equipment wasteland here! Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Oct 89 10:12:01 BST From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Portable Keyboards as MIDI masters 26 Oct 89 15:20:00 EDT <10202.8910262128@lfcs.ed.ac.uk >I've tried my D-50 >as a master, but I'm not happy with the amount of data it spews with any amount >of aftertouch enabled (ends up causing timing aberrations in my PC sequencer). I use a D-50 as my 61-key unweighted controller, and a pf-85 as my 88-key "piano action controller". The D-50 sends out continuous messages (like pitch-bend) once every 70msec or so, about the same as the Juno-106. This doesn't give any of my software any problems - it sounds more like a problem with your sequencing software. If the controller messages were sent out any more sparsely, you'd hear the quantising effect (and sometimes can, even with the D-50). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Oct 89 10:33:00 N From: "Martin Purschke, Muenster, Germany" Subject: MasterTracks copy protection woes Hi there, I recently had a lot of trouble with my MasterTracks Pro copy on my Mac harddisk - the protection mechanism is so fancy that I'm really scared to do anything on my disk with MT installed. What happened is the following: I run PurgeIcons and rebuilt the desktop. I launched MT to learn that the installed MT had been converted to an unauthorized copy. Luckily, I was able to deinstall the copy, after re-installation it worked fine again. What is allowed and what changes the copy to be unauthorized? The manual states you cannot defragment the disk with MT installed - any other things that I should avoid? What happens if my disk crashes with MT installed? Does anybody have similar experiences? Martin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Oct 89 09:59:37 -0400 From: Brian Adamson Subject: Re: Multitrack recorders Jeff, If you have a "Want-Ads Weekly" or similar type publication found in grocery or convenience stores in your area, that can prove to be an excellent place to look. They offer free/ or percentage of sale advertising and generally cover a larger market than newspaper classifieds. For example, here in Washington, D.C. the "Want-Ads" publication has much more extensive Muscial listings than does "The Washington Post" or other local newspapers. Asking prices are usually always printed and at least here the prices are much more reasonable than in the newspapers. Fortuneately, I'm fairly capable at electronic repair and find it relatively low risk in purchasing used equipment. However, with an item as mechanical as a multi-track recorder, you need to be very careful when checking one out. Definitely take a test tape with you when you go to look at one. If you don't have a test tape, a signal generator and oscilloscope are even better. With a signal generator, you can look at a couple of things. 1) Frequency response of each track: Record several signals on each track. (100 Hz, 500 Hz, 1 kHz, 2 kHz, 5 kHz, 10 kHz, 15 kHz & 20 kHz sine waves.) As you record these signals, view them on the scope (or a RMS voltmeter), and write down the levels. When you play back the signals, the levels should correspond to the recorded levels. (Note: when you record the signals, set their amplitude to the nominal amplitude recommended for the recorder (-10 dBm, +4 dBm or whatever). Differences in output level from the input level indicate the frequency response of the recorder. These differences should be small within the passband of the recorder (ideally 0-20 kHz) Severe differences, particularly sever differences from trck to track may indicate a problem with the tape recorder (or media (that particular tape)) With an oscilloscope you can also look for jitter in the playback signal. You should see a stable sine wave on the scope's screen if there is little or no jitter. Signal-to-noise ratio is more difficult to measure but you can take a crack at that and measurement of dynamic range by vary your input level from the minimum input level for which you see a sinusoidal output above the noise floor to the maximum input you can provide without seeing a clipped output. Pictures would help alot here but maybe you can get the idea. The ratio of this maximum input level to the minimum input level corresponds to the dynamic range. This may seem like alot of work, but it may save you alot of headaches and money. And, if you go in looking like you know what you are doing, maybe the seller won't try to mislead you. Anyway, I hope I haven't insulted anyone's intelligence, and I wish this could have been better but I got started into this reply without being in the editor and couldn't take back anything I said. Back to the original question, try the "Want-Ads Weekliy" or maybe check with a local dealer that accepts trade-ins, although I don't know how well they check out equipment they get in that way. As an example zof success with the "Want-Ads" method, I was able to recently acquire a Fostex 1/4" 8-track with a TASCAM 4-bus 8 channel mixer (Model 3) for $600 total. Well, good luck; Brian adamson@css.itd.nrl.navy.mil ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Oct 89 13:48:00 EST From: PRESTON@MOREKYPR.BITNET Subject: The status of ALLMUSIC at this node Does anyone know if ALLMUSIC is still active at this node (AUVM)? Since it has no listserver, and my REVIW requests have gone unanswered, I just figured it was not on for some reason. Anyone? Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Oct 89 13:56:56 EST From: PRESTON@MOREKYPR.BITNET Subject: Reply to Brian Adamson Re: Multitrack recorders Brian, Thanks for your reply... unfortunately, in this backwater town (Morehead, Ky), we don't have a "Want-Ads Weekly" type publication... unless you count the run-of-the-mill car/truck/boat type of listings. But, the next time I get down to Lexington, Ky, I'll look there. Anyway, thanks much for the pointers... your explanation of the tech parts didn't lose me... I've had some electronics theory, but I wouldn't have thought to be so thorough. Thanks again! Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Oct 89 15:16:18 EST From: Joe McMahon Subject: The Matrix-12 What do you folks think about the Matrix-12 or the Matrix-6 as a base keyboard for a to-be-expanded-sometime-but-not-soon setup? I'm an old-school sound programmer, and I like the analog logic of the Oberheim's sound creation. Or, as an alternate, how about a dumb keyboard controller with an Xpander? I'm looking for a multitimbral setup with, say, 16 voices, a minimum of noise, and good control of sound parameters. I like to mess about with the parameters of a sound as a compositional tool. The stuff of mine that's on the tape was done mostly by fiddling with knobs instead of playing the keyboard. --- Joe "Whaddaya mean, no patch cords?" M. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Oct 89 17:15:00 EST From: METLAY@PITTVMS.BITNET Subject: RE: The Matrix-12 Joe: Please put on your bias-sensitive sunglasses before reading this: Buy an Xpander with a master keyboard if you like the modular flexibility provided by such a setup, or get a Matrix-12 if you can swing the cash outlay, which is frightening. The Xpander has 6 voices, the Matrix-12 has 12, and they're essentially equivalent to six or twelve modular synths in a box, and with a few mods they can get even closer to the ideal. If you hear one, you'll buy it; if you buy it, send me a SASE and join the Xpander Users' Group. They're the ultimate analog synths in history, and quite possibly the ultimate synths of all time. The Matrix-6 is less expensive. That's its only advantage. Its voice structure is less complex and less flexible, and it's not the best choice for a master keyboard either. It's better than a lot of other synths, mind you, just not in the Xpander's league. Biased? Me? Just because I have two of them? Naahhh.... |-> metlay PS. How much will you bet that this doesn't get published on the List before someone else posts a note to the effect of, "NO! Don't ask questions about Xpander on the List! Somebody muzzle Metlay, quick! ARGH, TOO LATE!" etc. They're a pet topic of mine. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Oct 89 16:47:05 CDT From: Morgan Culverhouse <$CSQ162@LSUVM.BITNET> Subject: Re: Reply to Brian Adamson Re: Multitrack recorders Jeff, Pick up an issue of _Guitar World_ or _Guitar For the Practicing Musician_, they frequently have articles/reviews concerning Multi-Track Recorders. Just flip through one and see what you can find. Just Trying to Help. . . Morgan Culverhouse ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Oct 89 16:46:43 EDT From: "Lynn J. Young" Subject: Re: Multitrack recorders I joined this list to help get good information for my husband who writes music. He is interested in purchasing a 4-track recorder. I would appreciate any information along those lines as well as hearing more about experiences with the different recorders. Thanks, Lynn Young C0354@univscvm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Oct 89 02:13:45 BST From: "'Patrick C.K.Tsang'" Subject: 4-track recorders In reply to the 4-track enquiry: There are about three different class of 4-track around that I can think of, all of them work on the same principle but differ in mixing facilities, and of course, quality of recording. 1.) 4-channels The simplest and most popular 4-track for the past few years has been the Tascam PortaOne. A 4-channel mixer, dbx** machine. Just about anyone can use it, and when you are in the middle of a great composing session it is very important that you don't waste time learning the right switches. Since then Tascam has brought out the Porta 05, perhaps not really meant to be 1/2 a PortaOne, but is cheaper anyway. The Vesta series are also cheaper alternatives. Yamaha used to do the MT-1X, now replaced with MT-100. Fostex 260 is in the same class except that it uses Dolby-C** as noise-reduction instead of dbx**. This is perhaps less quiet than the dbx system but it gives a more natural sound. 2.) 6-channels The Tascam PortaTwo has little difference from the One except it has 6-channel of mixer and double tape speed. For the same money I would go for the Yamaha MT-2X, (now replaced by the slick MT-3X) which has more facilities. There is an input for Sync-code direct to track-4 and bypassing the dbx. This is very important since dbx can corrupt some time-codes, but one cannot afford to switch of the dbx while recording. It has switchable normal/double speed, and on the MT-3X there are two sets of stereo effects send/return for out-board FX, reverb, etc. Again very important. I believe the Fostex equivalent is the 460, the EQ on it is excellent covering hi, lo and parametric mid-range. If you like fiddling with EQ this is a good one. It has Dolby-C. 3.) The more expensive ones The Akai professional (416 ? 614 ?) has just about all you need which include a massive mixer, a 5-track for time code (made possible by carriers at 19khz hi-frequency) and lots of goodie I cannot afford to have. But at that price I would really look at 8-track alternatives. Hope this helps. Please comment if I am wrong. Patrick. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Oct 89 17:05:00 CDT From: jeff beer Subject: Voicetracker's Does anybody out there have a Fairlight Voicetracker, or the Roland equivalent. This devices will convert a single pitched analog signal to MIDI, so what I can do is use my trumpet to play a DX-7. I would be interested in hearing peoples' experience with them. The Fairlight is supposed to be the fastest, and it has some good IO screens that you can practice intonation with. Trouble is, Fairlight went under before they released the latest OS, so it does NOT have velocity sensitivity on it, which the Roland does. The volume controllers work ok, and they have controllers for brightness and tone purity, as well as pitch bend. But the lack of velocity controllers hurts. Other than that, I don't use it to double my trumpet line on synthesizer. Maybe it is me, but there are too many glitches amplified by the lack of velocity sensitivity. But it is good to use for computer controlled improvisation. Jeff Beer End of EMUSIC-L Digest ***********************