EMUSIC-L Digest Volume 20, Number 4 This issue's topic: Drum machines and related software Alesis HR-16 (2 messages) Boss DDR-550 (11 messages) Roland R-8 (8 messages) Roland TR-505 (5 messages) UpBeat (3 messages) Your EMUSIC-L Digest moderator is Joe McMahon . You may subscribe to EMUSIC-L by sending mail to listserv@american.edu with the line "SUB EMUSIC-L your name" as the text. The EMUSIC-L archive is a service of SunSite (sunsite.unc.edu) at the University of North Carolina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 24 Aug 90 10:46:26 EDT From: Andy Silverman Subject: Alesis HR-16 For $100 more than the Alesis HR-16 you can get a Roland R-5, which I find is much more flexible in terms of incoming MIDI data, and has an equally nice set of sounds. From what I remember of the HR-16, only 16 sounds at a time were accessible, depending on which keys had been programmed to what sounds. On the R-5 all 68 samples and 24 "edits" of those samples are accessible at ANY time, from MIDI or the keypads or whatever. This means you can lay down a beat with the buttons programmed one way, then reprogram which sounds are assigned to the buttons, and lay the new sounds on top of the old ones, no restrictions at all. Andy Silverman +-----------------------+-----------------------------------------+ | Andy Silverman | Internet: asilver@grad1.cis.upenn.edu | | "Grrr." | Compu$erve: 72261,531 Prodigy: JCSB27A | +-----------------------+-----------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 90 12:19:36 BST From: Ad Aerts Subject: Re: Rolland TR-505 used According to Brian Adamson: > The drum sounds do not appear to responds to velocity information > from an external MIDI source either. So it's fairly limited. It isn't VERY touch-sensitive, but it DOES respond to velocity. It does not respond to most other MIDI-messages like volume. Yes, it IS fairly limited. > Also, they > are 8 bit sounds, you will like your M1 drum sounds much more. I've always liked this "compact" sound. It still use it, sometimes. > So, unless you are short on voices on your M1, I'd use it's > drum sounds probably. Or for maybe a little more money you can > find an Alesis HR-16 or something similar which responds better > to MIDI. I've been able to borrow an HR16, to see if you could use it in a sequencing-evironment (Atari St1040 + Cubase 1.5). I couldn't bring it to respond to more than 16 note-messages. This means that the majority of the sounds are not available. That's a pity, because the sounds are allright. This also means the this machine is useless for use with sequencer programs. Or am I too harsh? -- Ad Aerts (===== Disclaimer: Instruction and Documentation Dpt. (===== Who? Me? Mediasystemen, Netherlands (===== e-mail: aerts@media01.UUCP (===== Don't give me an instruction AERTS@HUTRUU52.BITNET (===== manual. I already got one. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Aug 90 11:13:58 -0700 From: The MIDIman Subject: Re: Rolland TR-505 used adamson%ITD.NRL.NAVY.MIL@PSUVM.PSU.EDU > The drum sounds do not appear to responds to velocity information >from an external MIDI source either. So it's fairly limited. The sounds DO respond to velocity. As a first drum machine, I rather enjoyed it, but I have recently upgraded to the Boss DR-550, which you might want to look into. You can get it for around $210, and its got 48 sounds (5 kicks, 6 snares), and is 16-bit. VERY nice indeed. Steven R. Seidman ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Aug 90 13:17:29 EDT From: "ISA-HRDD Robert N. Muth" Subject: Re: Rolland TR-505 used > . . . upgraded to the Boss DR-550.. I also recently picked up a Boss DR-550. Sam Ash had both the Boss and the Rolland on sale (in fact, they still might). The Rolland sounded nice, but the Boss blew it out of the water. The only problem with the Boss is that it doesn't have a MIDI OUT. So if you want to program a pattern on the Boss and send it over to a MIDI sequencer, you're out of luck. Still, the Boss's superior sound made me choose it over the Roland. Robert Muth rmuth@cor1.pica.army.mil P.S. If anyone wants more info, send me a message, and I'll dig out the owner's manual. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Aug 90 14:52:00 EDT From: Marc TARDIF Subject: Thanks: Rolland TR-505 used Date: 27-AUG-1990 14:46:57 First I want to thanks everyone who took a little time to answer my question. >The sounds DO respond to velocity. As a first drum machine, I rather enjoyed >it, but I have recently upgraded to the Boss DR-550, which you might want to >look into. You can get it for around $210, and its got 48 sounds (5 kicks, >6 snares), and is 16-bit. VERY nice indeed. > >Steven R. Seidman I saw the DR-550 and I noticed there was only a MIDI IN plug, without a MIDI OUT as the TR-505. Is this make a big difference (excuse my lack of knolage and my poor english) with a computer sequencer (IBM-PC)? THANKS AGAIN. Marc! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Aug 90 15:32:15 -0700 From: The MIDIman Subject: Re: Thanks: Rolland TR-505 used >I saw the DR-550 and I noticed there was only a MIDI IN plug, without a MIDI >OUT as the TR-505. Is this make a big difference (excuse my lack of knolage >and my poor english) with a computer sequencer (IBM-PC)? > > THANKS AGAIN. Marc! Yes, as someone else pointed out, the DR-550 doesn't have a MIDI OUT. The main reason to have it is so that you can place the patterns into a sequencer, but the screen shows you where each drum sound is in the pattern, so you can just step edit it into a sequencer pattern. The other reason to have MIDI OUT is to use it like an arppegiator to a sequencer. That is what I am using my TR-505 for now. Despite the fact it doesn't have a MIDI OUT, the sound quality and extra editing features more than make up for it (IMO). Another thing to think about is that on the TR-505, the Crash cuts off the ride, and the ride cuts off the crash. It is really noticeable when you hit the crash and then hit the ride without letting the crash finish its output. This problem is avoided with the DR-550. Steven R. Seidman ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Aug 90 15:19:00 EDT From: METLAY@PITTVMS.BITNET Subject: About the DDR-550 I should point out, for the benefit of Steven Seidman and others, that I do not consider the DDR-550 to be unworthy of praise. Far from it: it is, as my good friend Soy Sos would say, "A crushin power tool." Its sounds are lovely, and it's remarkably easy to program, even if the Roland grid has been collapsed from 2D into 1D (Hey, a 3D grid! Now THERE'S a Drum Programmer for you! And it'd look so good on my Amiga....) But I think that aside from its sounds and the remarkable value for the money it represents, its primary attraction to staid old music types is its SIZE. The damned thing is TINY! Anyone who's only seen the TR-505 (previously the smallest real drum box one could get) will be shocked; anyone used to the DMX or the LinnDrum will keel over. This gives it immense utility for travelling composer's rigs and the like. My gripes about it are few but telling: no MIDI out, no tunable sounds or velocity/pressure sensitive pads, no stereo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Aug 90 15:22:00 EDT From: METLAY@PITTVMS.BITNET Subject: ahem. as I was saying ....ONLY stereo outs and no individual outs. I regard the R-5 and R-8 as much better machines for my porpoises, but hey, they also cost a hell of a lot more than the DDR-550, too. |-> metlay PS. On a related note, can an R-8 owner out there tell me if one can transmit velocity and pressure from its pads via MIDI, and if note numbers can be changed from kit to kit? It just occurred to me that if I can't afford a Thunder, then.....|-> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Aug 90 14:43:00 EDT From: Craig Hicks Subject: More DDR-550 Questions Okay, all you DDR-550 fans, my interest has been piqued. How many audio outputs does this beast has? Only two stereo? Can you assign each sound to a different output, or pan it between? Could somebody send me a list of all of the sounds this thing has? How many sounds are accesible simultaneously? Craig Hicks National Academy of Sciences Washington, D.C. USA chicks@nas.bitnet ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Aug 90 15:38:08 EDT From: "ISA-HRDD Robert N. Muth" Subject: Re: More DDR-550 Questions >How many sounds are accesible simultaneously? 12 >Could somebody send a list of sounds.... By tommorrow, yes. And from Metlay's latest message... > ... No stereo Daring to bear the wrath of flamethrowers, what do you mean by this? The thing can have each of its sounds panned. Oh, and TINY is a good description. Try I can fit the thing into my briefcase and still have plenty of breathing room. Robert N. Muth rmuth@cor1.pica.army.mil ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Aug 90 13:11:07 EDT From: "ISA-HRDD Robert N. Muth" Subject: Re: Thanks: Rolland TR-505 used >Another thing to think about is that on the TR-505, the Crash cuts off the >ride, and the ride cuts off the crash. It is really noticeable when you hit >the crash and then hit the ride without letting the crash finish its output. >This problem is avoided with the DR-550. One thing really nice about the DR-550 is that you can avoid this problem IF you want to. This is to say that the DR-550 is programmable to allow certain instruments in a group to cut off other instruments in that same group. For instance, if you have an open hi-hat in group 1, you can program the closed hi-hat to also be in group one, thereby having it cut off the open hi-hat whenever it is played. I believe there are 2 such groups, plus the option not to put the voice in either group. If this is the case, then no other voices will cut the voice not belonging to either group. Again, I must plug the excellent sound quality the 16-bit DR-550 has to offer. 48 sounds, with delay, tone color, pan, level, group and accent parameters to play with are available. I was really impressed with how much better it sounded than the TR-505. And it is not all that much more (around $50). Robert N. Muth rmuth@cor1.pica.army.mil ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Aug 90 10:35:21 -0700 From: The MIDIman Subject: Re: Thanks: Rolland TR-505 used >48 sounds, with delay, tone color, pan, level, group and accent parameters to ^^^^^ Shouldn't that read decay? Yeah, the DR-550 lets you change the decay of the sound, so for instance, you can get really long snare sounds (they use this on the presets for some hard rock patterns) or you can get a short little tap. This makes me feel like there are MORE than the 48 sounds. I have had it for a little over 2 weeks now, and I am still enjoying it as if I just purchased it today!!!! Steven R. Seidman ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Aug 90 14:16:00 EDT From: METLAY@PITTVMS.BITNET Subject: Re: Thanks: Rolland TR-505 used From: The MIDIman : >I have had it for a little over 2 weeks now, and I am still enjoying it as if >I just purchased it today!!!! Good heavens, man, I should hope so! I hope that's not exactly what you meant to say, or that I'm misinterpreting things, because that statement reads as if you are flabbergasted that a piece of gear could actually hold your interest for two weeks, which is (as Christopher Guest said in "The Princess Bride") the saddest thing I've ever heard in my life. What am I missing? metlay ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Sep 90 02:40:47 EDT From: "Michael Lehnertz (Drummer)" Subject: Roland R-8 The Akai sample (S950) can only do 9 voices at once? Wow, that is quite a bummer if you ask me. With the R-8, there is a paramater called "Feel." When you use different feel settings, the attack, decay and pitch all change with the velocity. Now, I haven't played much with this, but, when I do a snare roll, you actually get the subtlties (sp?) of a snare roll. There is actually a buzz to a closed roll and accents and what not. For those of you that have used older drum machine (The Alesis HR-16 in my case) you will notice that a roll sounds like a machine gun fire. Also, you don't have to have a studio to great sounds with the R-8. The sounds ARE amazing with this. I just got the Jazz ROM Card yesterday. Sounds pretty kicker. - Drummer - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Aug 90 21:25:35 EDT From: "Michael Lehnertz (Drummer)" Subject: Roland R-8 and sequencing... Let's see if this makes it... Anyway, I just got myself a Roland R-8m drum machine (not really a machine though) and I want to use my Mac to run the thing. I have seen MacDrums and all that. I was wondering what I should get. Nothing like Performer or Composer though. We are talking in the $200 price range. After buying this and some cards for it, my funds are low. For those of you that haven't heard the Roland R-8m, it is AWESOME. I will tell those that are interested if they want... - Drummer - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Aug 90 15:22:56 EDT From: "Michael Lehnertz (Drummer)" Subject: Roland R-8 again... The prices I have seen are about $700 for the normal R-8 and about $800 for the R-8m. I got my R-8m for $716. I am good buddies with the drum sales type person at my area music store. Anyway, the cards go for about $60 a piece. ALSO, the brush sounds for this machine are excellent. I have never heard a drum machine do brush sounds. These are years beyond anyone else. I might just be out of a job if this thing catches on! It is amazing and in my mind, well worth the money... - Drummer - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Aug 90 15:15:41 EDT From: "Michael Lehnertz (Drummer)" Subject: Re: Roland R-8 and sequencing... The Roland R-8 is a drum machine. It can take one additional ROM card but can sequence. It has the buttons on it. The R-8m is just a percussion tone module. It takes 3 additional ROM cards though. You can access about 140 sounds at once. It is also a rack mounted unit (which I like). - Drummer - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Aug 90 13:09:08 -0400 From: "Jerry A. Jelinek" Subject: Roland R8M I notice that there is some disscussion of the Roland R8M drum machine (?). Can you guys send me some specs and pricing?? I am interested in jazz brush sounds and so far have been unsuccessful in finding them. Are there any reviews in Keyboard??? I'm at work and don't have them handy, I'll look at old issues tonight. This sounds like something I might be interested in for further drum sounds. Currently I use a Yamaha RX120 and Proteus 1, but find the sounds acceptable, but nothing earth shaking. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Aug 90 07:38:18 EDT From: "Michael Lehnertz (Drummer)" Subject: Re: ahem. as I was saying The R-8 IS velocity sensitive. (I am pretty sure I know what that means) Check this out (important to drummers who trigger...), you can hit your pads softer and you get different sounds, just like you would get with a real set. For instance, if you hit a snare drum lightly, all the snares won't ring and you get a small sound and if you tag it, you get a BIG, full sound. The same goes for the R-8. This is the first drum "machine" I have ever been able to roll on and get an actual roll and not the machine gun blast. You can change MIDI numbers for each set. I never do that. I just assign different sounds to each MIDI number for every set that I use. That way, I can leave my MIDI controller where it is and call new sets from the R-8 only. It also has 8 output jacks on it! - Drummer - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Aug 90 02:33:48 EDT From: Bryan Sells Subject: Re: Roland R-8 and sequencing... An R8M is a rack mounted version of the R8. This means no pads, no sequencer. But you get three PCM card slots and 1 RAM cad:rd slot. It is truly a great module. BRYAN sells@husc9.harvard.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Aug 90 10:21:00 EDT From: "b.klassen" Subject: Drumming ... I've been using a combination of sampled drums from the S950 and the Proteus ... what can the R8m give me that I can't get from my current set-up? It's tempting to me just to offload my sampler, which only has 8 voices. Can anyone elaborate on this velocity timbre control Drummer was talking about? I can do cross-fades on my gear, but that eats up memory and voices. brian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 90 09:09:00 EDT From: Marc TARDIF Subject: Roland TR-505 Date: 23-AUG-1990 08:58:44 Hi Emusicians, I'm a rooky in Electronic music. I just got a good deal, A Korg M1 for 1200.00$ Can. with the rigid case and few Rom cards. Now I saw a another used device. It's a Rolland TR-505 drum machine for 200$ Can. (Can dollar value is about 15% less than US dollar). Is it a good deal? Is the machine good? Thanks, Marc! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 90 10:58:00 EDT From: Craig Hicks Subject: RE: Used Roland TR-505 I bought a new TR505 about 4 years ago for $350. It is a good drum machine, but there are a few drawbacks-- first, it only has 16 on-board sounds second, it only has two stereo outputs, unlike other drum machines that have several. when it was first introduced, this was a great midi drum machine for the price. Now though, you might want to get a used alesis hr-16 instead. I would try and talk the seller down to $175 Canadian. Craig Hicks National Academy of Sciences Washington, D.C. USA chicks@nas (bitnet) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Aug 90 09:46:20 EDT From: Andy Silverman Subject: Re: Rolland TR-505 used Roland TR-505's have about 16 nice sampled sounds and they're well made. The sounds are nice and punchy, too. The money's about right, so if you like the sounds you're getting a pretty average deal. Andy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Aug 90 09:50:48 -0400 From: Brian Adamson Subject: Re: Rolland TR-505 used Marc, I've got a TR-505. It's a decent machine. I paid approx. $250 for it new in 1986. I think I've seen them still selling for about the same price new recently. (U.S. dollars btw) It's got a good variety of sounds and it's pretty easy to program (step mode or loop a pattern and add drum parts in real time). In addition to the sounds, it has an accent feature. You can set the volume level of each of the sounds to one of three levels (also for the accent) Unfortunately the sounds maintain the same level unless the accent is applied on the same beat, in which case all sounds occurring on that beat are accented. The drum sounds do not appear to responds to velocity information from an external MIDI source either. So it's fairly limited. Also, they are 8 bit sounds, you will like your M1 drum sounds much more. So, unless you are short on voices on your M1, I'd use it's drum sounds probably. Or for maybe a little more money you can find an Alesis HR-16 or something similar which responds better to MIDI. But the sounds are nice, and it's a great machine to try out drum patterns on, very intuitive to program. I just wanted to point out a few of the limitations I have run into. Brian Adamson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Aug 90 01:52:26 GMT From: "Erik D. Olson" Subject: Re: Rolland TR-505 used In article <9008251119.AA00734@media01.sunnet> aerts%media01@nlnet.nl writes: >I've been able to borrow an HR16, to see if you could use it in a >sequencing-evironment (Atari St1040 + Cubase 1.5). I couldn't bring it >to respond to more than 16 note-messages. This means that the majority >of the sounds are not available. That's a pity, because the sounds are >allright. This also means the this machine is useless for use with >sequencer programs. Or am I too harsh? There is a way around having only 16 sounds and that is to set up different "programs" that use other sounds, and then do program changes when you want a different "kit" of drums. In some cases, I keep the basic kit (kick,snare, hi-hats,toms) and have different sets of "percussion" instruments. The HR-16 will not kill the current sound when you program change, so these "swappings" can be done seamlessly. I tend to find the HR16 to be one of the most versatile and well-thought-out box of its type... practically anything I can think of, they have put into the damn thing, except for expansion sounds. -- Erik D. Olson, grad flunkie extrordinaire donley@milton.acs.washington.edu "What is the ugliest part of your body? I think it's your mind." - Frank Zappa ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Aug 90 09:11:20 MDT From: Adam Schabtach Subject: Roland R-8 and sequencing... If you're using the Macintosh, the best drum sequencing program available is UpBeat (formerly published by Intelligent Music, now by Dr. T's). It's really a joy to work with -- very interactive, very flexible, and useful for other rhythm-oriented sequencing (e.g. bass lines) as well as drums. It's been reviewed in the various MIDI magazines and received praise in each one. I think the price is $150. There used to be a demo disk available; give Dr. T's a call and see if you can get one. (No, I have no connection with UpBeat, Intelligent Music, or Dr. T's, except as a satisfied owner.) --Adam ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Aug 90 12:17:20 EDT From: Bryan Sells Subject: Re: Roland R-8 and sequencing... Congatulations, drummer, on your R8M. i have one myself and I agree that it kicks. I do have a wish list of improvements, but hey, I use it. As far as how to run it, I don't think MacDrums is the best unless you are really good at roland grid style programming and don't nheed to go beyond that. You will not be able to take advantage of any continuous controller stuff like nuance and pitch change. Are you using a keyboard? Just midi it up. I take it that you aren't. In that case Macdrums might me a good solution or perhaps a product like Upbeat, which is now marketed by Dr. T's. If you do use a keyboard, get EZ vision by Opcode. It is far and away hte best entry level sequencer, and might even be a good option if you don't have a keyboard, too. If you decide to go the MacDrums route, I'd be happy to sell you my copy which has been out of the box only once. BRYAN sells@husc9.harvard.edu p.s. Get the electronic card, the jazz brush card, and the contemporary percuss ion card. They blow me away. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Aug 90 15:13:39 EDT From: "Michael Lehnertz (Drummer)" Subject: Re: Roland R-8 and sequencing... Well, it seems that everyone is recommending Upbeat. I think that I might have to check it out pretty soon. I am not ready to buy this software yet anyway... But... I tell ya, I love the Roland R-8. I used on my gigs this weekend. I have the power drums card and the jazz card. I am getting contemporary percussion and the sound effects card next. Using those for my studio/commericial work. I haven't a use for the brush card though... I love it though. - Drummer - ------------------------------ End of EMUSIC-L digest ******************************