EMUSIC-L Digest Volume 32, Number 5 This issue's topics: Pushbutton demos and philosophy (16 messages) Your EMUSIC-L Digest moderator is Joe McMahon . You may subscribe to EMUSIC-L by sending mail to listserv@american.edu with the line "SUB EMUSIC-L your name" as the text. The EMUSIC-L archive is a service of SunSite (sunsite.unc.edu) at the University of North Carolina. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1991 21:42:04 EDT From: Marshall Gilula Subject: Pushbutton demos (Re: inquiry about ROLAND Studio-M) how much does the thing cost? forgive me for being crass, but I got one of the tiny Yamaha Qy10, I believe it is called, and it dumps to MIDI too, and is something like the RA30 and similar devices, but is the size of a vcr cassette. I think music stores will sell it for about $325 or $350. This tiny little thing also has dynamite demos. So does the M3R. -73- Marshall Gilula Miami, Florida ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1991 11:40:49 +0000 From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Pushbutton demos (Re: inquiry about ROLAND Studio-M) >This tiny little thing also has dynamite demos. I'd rather pay for features, programmability and versatility than for demos. Demos are an easy way to sell gear. Easy for the manufacturer, because they make the machine sound good without needing to design and provide the features the user actually realises he needs a month later, and easy for the sales staff who just need to have enough brain cells to push the button, say "hey, listen to this", and phone through the customer's credit card number. I'd actually avoid a machine with a demo. It says bad things about the manufacturer's priorities. I notice, as an aside, that the QY-whatever is being advertised in Keyboard as a machine which requires the user to be neither talented nor musical. So, the age of the machine which provides talent and musicianship to everybody is finally with us. And here's me thinking it requires dedication, hard work and perseverance... Nick. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1991 10:50:28 PDT From: Yon Spigot of Destiny awaits! Subject: Re: Pushbutton demos (Re: inquiry about ROLAND Studio-M) >> >>This tiny little thing also has dynamite demos. >> > >I'd actually avoid a machine with a demo. It says bad things about the >manufacturer's priorities. jeez, I usta love the ``Casio Corporate Anthem'' on the Casiotone... casey (known to have worked on a fair number of demos, luckily not musical!) ------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1991 14:05:32 EDT From: Patrick Robinson Subject: Re: Pushbutton demos (Re: inquiry about ROLAND Studio-M) >I'd actually avoid a machine with a demo. It says bad things about the >manufacturer's priorities. Well, maybe. On the one hand, "demo" probably implies "sequencer". And a machine with a sequencer and no demo probably can't compete on large scale with the machine that has a demo. And you have to admit that 'workstations' are usually designed to sell on a large scale basis. On the other hand, just because a machine has a "Bitchin' Demo" says nothing whatsoever about the design, usefulness, or quality of its sequencer. Maybe it shows off factory presets, but that says nothing about a machine's synthesis capabilities. If it takes a dumpy sequencer with a Killer Demo to sell an otherwise wonderful synth, then I'd rather have the _option_ of buying it (accepting the fact that I'm also paying for "features" I'm not interested in), than never have the opportunity to buy it because it was never made, because it wouldn't sell. On the other hand, this could be a lot of Bunk ... we do have such machines as the Waldorf and the Matrix-12 being sold out there. >I notice, as an aside, that the QY-whatever is being advertised in Keyboard >as a machine which requires the user to be neither talented nor musical. >So, the age of the machine which provides talent and musicianship to >everybody is finally with us. And here's me thinking it requires >dedication, hard work and perseverance... Cheap entertainment. Matter of fact, its even cheaper to just go out and buy a good CD. Put on Emerson and amaze your friends! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1991 14:55:00 EDT From: Mario Vergona Subject: SEQ DEMOS hi, on the subject of builtin demos, I remember reading in the KORG users magazine various questions about the demos from owners of the (then) new M1. It turned out that many of the great tricks were done on a computer sequencer, edited and then used as the offical demo. This is why korg has sponsored contests for the best sequences created with an m1/t1 on an m1/t1. There was a lot of grumbling. it is also the reason for the upgrade of the sequencer in the m1. m p.s. No, I do not own an M1, but I really liked it. I also believe that the Roland studio thingy is about 2300 dollars. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1991 18:54:02 MDT From: Adam Schabtach Subject: Re: Pushbutton demos (Re: inquiry about ROLAND Studio-M) > And a machine with a sequencer and no demo probably can't compete > on large scale with the machine that has a demo. Reminds me of when the original (sequencerless) VFX came out. I was chatting with the regional rep about it, and expressed appreciation that it *didn't* have a sequencer. (The reason being that Ensoniq's previous attempt to build an onboard sequencer--in the EPS--was so buggy as to be almost a failure.) He said, "right, but watch this" and pulled a voice cartridge out of his pocket, stuck it into the VFX, hit some magic key combination, and the thing started belting out a typical demo sequence. I said, "cute--you guys had to do that because you can't sell a synth without demo sequences these days, right?" and he said, "right." > On the other hand, just because a machine has a > "Bitchin' Demo" says nothing whatsoever about the design, usefulness, > or quality of its sequencer. Maybe it shows off factory presets, > but that says nothing about a machine's synthesis capabilities. Indeed. In fact, I'd rather that manufacturers would spend more time working on the synthesis capabilities of their machines, and bag the internal sequencers. Of course, this comes from the perspective of working with a software sequencer in a home studio, rather than playing live. Now that I have a computer for sequencing and storage, I'd rather not pay for a keyboard with a sequencer and a disk drive (so I bought a Waldorf :-) ). > On the other hand, this could be a lot of Bunk ... we do have such > machines as the Waldorf and the Matrix-12 being sold out there. Also the Wavestation, the JD-800, the SQ-R, etc. Unfortunately, it seems that at least in the case of the WS and the Microwave, the buyers aren't particularly interested. --Adam ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1991 23:00:24 EDT From: Marshall Gilula Subject: Re: Pushbutton demos (Re: inquiry about ROLAND Studio-M) apropos the Yamaha QY10, check out the reviews in ELECTRONIC MUSICIAN and some of the heavier technical journals. I am still looking for the "machine which requires the user to be neither talented nor musical...maybe the advertising hype can also furnish us with a device that will turn donkey doo into gold. Believe it or not (just ask any of the Jacksons) it STILL does require dedication, ability, talent, hard work, perseverance, and LUCK. -73- Marshall ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1991 11:56:31 +0000 From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Re: Pushbutton demos (Re: inquiry about ROLAND Studio-M) >Believe it or not (just ask any of the Jacksons) it STILL does require > dedication, >ability, talent, hard work, perseverance, and LUCK. Agreed. Musical instrument advertising, by contrast, requires the ability to lie in print. (Naive? Moi?) Nick. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1991 08:26:11 EDT From: Patrick Robinson Subject: Re: Pushbutton demos (Re: inquiry about ROLAND Studio-M) >> On the other hand, this could be a lot of Bunk ... we do have such >> machines as the Waldorf and the Matrix-12 being sold out there. > >Also the Wavestation, the JD-800, the SQ-R, etc. Unfortunately, it >seems that at least in the case of the WS and the Microwave, the >buyers aren't particularly interested. The strange thing is that these companies keep designing and manufacturing more of them. I suspect that although the WS isn't selling all that well, that Korg may still find the machine worth while. I'd bet they're making enough money on M1's and T*'s to support the WS ... and the WS keeps a different (though much smaller) group of people happy. I think it makes Korg look 'hipper' in the eyes of the music industry, even though its not a big money maker. Truthfully, I don't know how Waldorf is paying the bills. What else do they make? It doesn't cost nearly enough to keep it in an elitist position, and you sure don't see very many of them ... maybe they're all hidden off in racks somewhere. Just curious ... how durable (well-made, etc) does the MicroWave seem to be? Is it a fairly sturdy box? Do the knobs and buttons seem like they'll wear out easily? -Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1991 11:55:46 +0000 From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Re: Pushbutton demos (Re: inquiry about ROLAND Studio-M) >I think it makes Korg look 'hipper' in the >eyes of the music industry, even though its not a big money maker. Well, Korg are now backpedalling and installing more acoustic instrument sample ROM into Wavestations, so that doesn't say much. A firmware or DSP upgrade to add multimode or highpass filtering would have been so much more useful. >Truthfully, I don't know how Waldorf is paying the bills. What else >do they make? Well, Palm is involved in the HD recording system for the Atari (ADAP?); Waldorf as a company was just a small project dedicated to providing PPG technology, I think, although they do make a MIDI router as well (complete with triangular remote control). >It doesn't cost nearly enough to keep it in an elitist >position Well, it's elite by virtue of its sound, I think, if not its price. >and you sure don't see very many of them ... maybe they're >all hidden off in racks somewhere. I suspect this is the case. >Just curious ... how durable (well-made, etc) does the MicroWave seem >to be? Is it a fairly sturdy box? Do the knobs and buttons seem like >they'll wear out easily? No better or worse than any other rack box. I'm not too keen on the consistency of the buttons (a feeling I have about the MKS-70 and D-550 as well, which have much flimsier-feeling button pads), but I now have the MicroWave completely under MIDI control so I never have to touch it physically. Anybody have a price on the WaveSlave, btw? Nick. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1991 11:30:55 +0000 From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Re: SEQ DEMOS >It turned out that many of the great tricks were done on a computer >sequencer, edited and then used as the offical demo. This is why korg has >sponsored contests for the best sequences created with an m1/t1 on an m1/t1. How do they prevent cheating? Nick. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1991 13:28:18 EDT From: Patrick Robinson Subject: Re: SEQ DEMOS >>It turned out that many of the great tricks were done on a computer >>sequencer, edited and then used as the offical demo. This is why korg has >>sponsored contests for the best sequences created with an m1/t1 on an m1/t1. > >How do they prevent cheating? Maybe, if your sequence is chosen, they make you sit down at the machine, and recreate the sequence from scratch... patches and all. Yeah, that's the ticket... -Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1991 13:44:18 EDT From: Patrick Robinson Subject: Re: Pushbutton demos (Re: inquiry about ROLAND Studio-M) >>I think it makes Korg look 'hipper' in the >>eyes of the music industry, even though its not a big money maker. > >Well, Korg are now backpedalling and installing more acoustic instrument >sample ROM into Wavestations, so that doesn't say much. A firmware or DSP >upgrade to add multimode or highpass filtering would have been so much more >useful. But, this way, they're killing two birds with one stone... or so they'd like to believe. Put an M1 and a VS in one box. Recycle existing technology One More Time, but do it with an attitude. If the alternative to the acoustic samples is No Upgrade At All, and if the cost remains the same (did it? do WS-With-Piano-Samples cost the same as the original did?)... then you have lost nothing. I doubt they said, "Hmmm ... just we upgrade the filter? or should we add M1 samples?" >Waldorf as a company was just a small project ... ^^^ ..."was"? Its still in business, isn't it? >>It doesn't cost nearly enough to keep it in an elitist >>position > >Well, it's elite by virtue of its sound, I think, if not its price. Ahhh ... but you're being utilitarian ;-) -Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1991 09:18:39 MDT From: Adam Schabtach Subject: Re: Pushbutton demos (Re: inquiry about ROLAND Studio-M) > Anybody have a price on the WaveSlave, btw? Seems to me that it was listing at $1299. The Micro lists at $1499 and has a street price of $1100-$1200, so the Slave can probably be had for $1000 or so. Do you happen to know how many rack spaces it takes? Just curious; I certainly can't afford one any time soon. Gotta get a new whiz-bang DSP box first. --Adam ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1991 11:23:04 +0000 From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Re: Pushbutton demos (Re: inquiry about ROLAND Studio-M) >But, this way, they're killing two birds with one stone... or so >they'd like to believe. Put an M1 and a VS in one box. Recycle >existing technology One More Time, but do it with an attitude. Yup. I don't see it as a "fair" upgrade to the WS, though. A decent upgrade would be the 01/W's waveshaping tools, for example. >>Waldorf as a company was just a small project ... > ^^^ >..."was"? Its still in business, isn't it? As far as I know; read that as "is." Nick. ------------------------------ End of the EMUSIC-L Digest ******************************