EMUSIC-L Digest Volume 37, Issue 07 This issue's topics: "Total control" systems (6 messages) EPS samples wanted (4 messages) Sample idea sampler Your EMUSIC-L Digest moderator is Joe McMahon . You may subscribe to EMUSIC-L by sending mail to listserv@american.edu with the line "SUB EMUSIC-L your name" as the text. The EMUSIC-L archive is a service of SunSite (sunsite.unc.edu) at the University of North Carolina. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1992 15:36:23 CST From: Gregory Taylor Subject: Re: "Total control" systems > First, a little background. I have finally gotten hold of Paul Lansky's > CD "smalltalk". This is brilliant work, unlike anything else I've heard. Glad you like it. There's another one in the pipe, though I'm not sure of its release date. Paul and I correspond a bit, and I've broadcast premiered the work that'll be on the new disc on my radio show. It's *better* than "Smalltalk." Trust me. > Problem 1: what platform? Paul does almost all of his work in something called Cmix, which was developed [by him] at Princeton, where he teaches. Cmix software runs on Suns and NeXTs, and it's in the public domain [you can ftp it to your NeXT or Sun for nothing if you've got an Internet connection]. > Problem 2: what software? See above. Most all of the people I know who use Cmix [and there are a lot of us] do so on NeXTs. The built-in DSP board is a real g*dsend for this kind of work, and it's the reason we're all crazy enough to buy machine that have no commercial MIDI sequencers written for them. Seriously - the stuff of Paul's you like is better characterized as "computer" music rather than "electronic" stuff. It takes lots of computing muscle to do this. The point that makes us all love Cmix is that its user-extensible. You just write your own little signal manglers and then compile them into the Cmix preprocessor front end. There are all kinds of filters, transposers, phase vocoders, spatial simulation programs, etc. that were written by lots of different people. > Problem 3: interfaces? It seems ridiculous to discard my investment of > time (in learning keyboard skills) and money (in equipment) for a computer > which does not support (for instance) MIDI interfaces. Can I come up > with reasonable ways to use my existing equipment as an adjunct to the > new stuff? That's a good idea, but in this case the NeXT is a computer music platform at present, rather than a MIDI one. You're free to write your own MIDI software [and I suspect that people are doing it and we may someday see a real sequencer for the NeXT], but there ain't a lot of it. Besides, none of what Paul wrote uses keyboards at all. It's code like this: #fake cmix file. wrong syntax, right lines.... system("s1 /sounds/mangled.flag.snd") input("/sounds/flag.waving.snd") output("/sounds/mangled.flag.snd")> torch(0,0,.5,300,.7,600,.9,800) > Problem 4 time required? How long does it take to realize pieces in this > matter? Obviously, the "improvise until it sounds right" school of composition > is out here, as is exploration of alternatives in real-time. A slow machine > that will take hours to calculate the sounds and mix is going to make it > much more difficult to compose. Let's just say that patience is a virtue. The learning curve is steep, particularly if you want to write your own mangling code. The calculations will vary according to the type of processing [flying something through a large reverberant space at high velocities may run at ratios of 600 to 1, and other stuff like mixdown files are lots faster] and the amount of internal memory on your machine. It is not for the faint of heart. For me, what it'll *do* makes the wait worth. Running a big Cmix file is liking taking a bus from Goa to Teheran: you'd better be pretty sure you want to go before you leave. But there's not another way to do what Paul does, unless it's another kind of computer music language such as csound or cmusic or Common Music. Period. > What I'm looking for, then, is experiences with this mode of composition and > insights into how one works with such a system. Pointers to compositions and > comments about their composition would also be very helpful. > > I plan to upgrade my home system (Mac) soon, and I'd like to know if anyone > has managed to use the Audiomedia DSP board as a compositional tool. I'm having the time of my life doing this stuff. Actually monkeying around in the frequency and time domains at the same time is pretty wonderful in the way that the DX7 was when I first got it. One must learn an intuitive sense of what various kinds of processors *do*, and it ain't all that intuitive. What the estimable Mr. Lansky does it to make it look *easy*, and he's unashamed to make music that ah...regular persons can *like*. [some other computer music is equally rewarding, but perhaps more of an acquired taste]. Well, yes. There is a csound port for Macs, I think. But I imagine that it might be a trifle slow. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1992 13:01:44 EST From: "Joseph D. McMahon" Subject: "Total control" systems First, a little background. I have finally gotten hold of Paul Lansky's CD "smalltalk". This is brilliant work, unlike anything else I've heard. I'd like to try some of this myself. I'd also like to try a few of the infrequently-mentioned techniques, such as automata-generated waveforms. Problem 1: what platform? Most, if not all, composer's computers (I refrain from calling them workstations to prevent misunderstandings) are not good (read: justifiable) investments for a home studio. Are there less-expensive alternatives for the low-budget electronic musician? Problem 2: what software? A piece of hardware with no software support is near useless. Obviously, I'm not going to be able to walk into B. Dalton Software Etc. and pick up a full-fledged composer's package; are there alternatives from which one can start and build one's own synthesis tools? Problem 3: interfaces? It seems ridiculous to discard my investment of time (in learning keyboard skills) and money (in equipment) for a computer which does not support (for instance) MIDI interfaces. Can I come up with reasonable ways to use my existing equipment as an adjunct to the new stuff? Problem 4 time required? How long does it take to realize pieces in this matter? Obviously, the "improvise until it sounds right" school of composition is out here, as is exploration of alternatives in real-time. A slow machine that will take hours to calculate the sounds and mix is going to make it much more difficult to compose. What I'm looking for, then, is experiences with this mode of composition and insights into how one works with such a system. Pointers to compositions and comments about their composition would also be very helpful. I plan to upgrade my home system (Mac) soon, and I'd like to know if anyone has managed to use the Audiomedia DSP board as a compositional tool. --- Joe M. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1992 16:56:57 EST From: tjt@BLINK.ATT.COM Subject: Re: "Total control" systems > > First, a little background. I have finally gotten hold of Paul Lansky's > > CD "smalltalk". This is brilliant work, unlike anything else I've heard. > > Glad you like it. There's another one in the pipe, though I'm not sure > of its release date. Paul and I correspond a bit, and I've broadcast > premiered the work that'll be on the new disc on my radio show. It's > *better* than "Smalltalk." Trust me. Does it perhaps include the "Table Talk" (or something like that - it involves sounds at their dinner table) piece that he played at USENIX in Nashville last summer? I (and my wife) liked that piece a lot, I was hoping it would be on "Smalltalk", but it wasn't. ...Tim... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1992 17:38:24 EST From: metlay Subject: Re: "Total control" systems Thanks for the very interesting info on Cmix, Greg. I must confess to being a bit of a NeXT ignoramus, though; when you give time and sweat benchmarks for your computer, I have nothing to relate them to. How would your NeXT compare to something like, say, a Sun Sparc2? (I've gotten access to one for a short period, and if Cmix runs on Suns it might be worth investigating in my copious free time _NOT_.) The idea of using the NeXT for a "total control" music environment is a tempting one for someone who loves the shaping of sound for its own sake. I (and I suspect many others) find the time-compression factor in creating music this way to be somewhat daunting, though. I'm not sure if this is entirely a product of the "Gimme MORE Gimme NOW" mindset that appears to afflict the music industry these days, or merely a byproduct of a thwarted wish for twenty-eight hours in every day and/or a job with a ten-hour work week. |-> I'd like to hear Lansky's latest; my most recent listen in the computer music genre was Holland's "Paths of Motion: Sets and Simulations for Small Computer," which was dry to the point of dustiness. -- Mike Metlay metlay@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu Atomic City P.O. Box 81175, Pittsburgh, PA 15217-0675 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1992 22:16:51 MST From: Adam Schabtach Subject: Re: "Total control" systems > > Thanks for the very interesting info on Cmix, Greg. I must confess to Oh, are you back on emusic-l? Good, it's been a little dull without you, particularly since I don't see your r.m.s. postings (since I have finally given up on r.m.s., at least for now). How goes the thesis? --Adam schabtac@stout.atd.ucar.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1992 12:56:01 EST From: metlay Subject: Re: "Total control" systems > Oh, are you back on emusic-l? Good, it's been a little dull without you, > particularly since I don't see your r.m.s. postings (since I have finally > given up on r.m.s., at least for now). How goes the thesis? > > --Adam schabtac@stout.atd.ucar.edu Well, thanks. I don't think everyone will be as happy as you to see me, tho. My thesis work is going full blast, with a defense in the Spring sometime, so I only read mail during lunch hour most of the time. That means I won't be much of a voice on EMUSIC-L at all (and there was much rejoicing). Since I can no longer stomach r.m.s, this at least gives me some intelligent people to listen to on matters deeper than what the best price for a used VeebleTronix JXM-108 is.... -- Mike Metlay metlay@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu Atomic City P.O. Box 81175, Pittsburgh, PA 15217-0675 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1992 09:22:00 CST From: "JOHN S. CONRADER" Subject: EPS samples wanted Hi, I have an Ensoniq EPS 16+ and I need some new sounds. I would like to know if anyone knows of a good place to get PD samples. I dont have a computer hooked up to my EPS so I am looking for samples on EPS/EPS 16+ disks. Thanks for any help. :) --------------------------------- | John Conrader | | | | CONRADERJ@h8700a.boeing.com | | | --------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1992 11:53:50 EST From: "Joseph D. McMahon" Subject: Re: EPS samples wanted > > Hi, > I have an Ensoniq EPS 16+ and I need some new sounds. I would like > to know if anyone knows of a good place to get PD samples. > Yes, I know the absolute best place to get PD samples. Get yourself a microphone and a good-quality portable DAT deck. Go out in the real world and find the sounds you want and record them. You can then take them back home with you and work on transferring them to the EPS-16 until you are happy with them. You will not only not have to pay for your samples, but, if they're good ones, you can start selling them yourself. :-) Seriously, I would highly recommend doing your own sampling. There are hundreds of great noises living in your house or apartment, or right nearby. Need a simulated laser shot? Go outside and find a metal guy wire, hold the mike on it, and hit the wire with a piece of wood or metal (this method courtesy of the Industrial Light & Magic folks). Get a friend to come over and sample his keyboard/guitar/flute/kazoo. Go down to the garage and slam the doors on your car for kick drum sounds. The DAT deck is not an absolute necessity; it just makes it easier to capture a sound in the field and to get it back into the EPS with the highest possible fidelity, short of lugging the EPS around. Also, you'll have a dandy mastering deck (assuming you spend that extra little bit for a pro machine, so you can actually back up your masters...). Certainly you could rent one for a few days while you go on Sample Patrol. Go for it! You'll have a great time, and will really stretch your ears as you work. You'll find more and more sounds that have their own internal life and rhythms the more you look and listen. And they'll beat the heck out of the God-I-hope-never-hear-it-again sampled orchestra hit. --- Joe M. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1992 12:42:00 CST From: "JOHN S. CONRADER" Subject: EPS samples wanted Thanks for the advice. I'll see what I can come up with. -John :) --------------------------------- | John Conrader | | | |Internet: | | CONRADERJ@h8700a.boeing.com | | | --------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1992 09:38:18 CST From: "Jonathon Simon" Subject: EPS samples wanted On Thu, 27 Feb 1992 12:42:00 CST JOHN S. CONRADER said: >Thanks for the advice. I'll see what I can come up with. > -John :) I agree. Making your own samples is good advice - its really not that hard - the only trick is finding good loop points (where begin/end voltage is at 0). Even the slightest deviation might pop. I don't know much about the EPS 16, but on many samplers this is difficult to do. You really need to examine the sample with a visual editor. There are CD's available where you can pull some nice (generally more conventional and/or acoustical) sounds. If your looking for something (sounds) that are "wild and crazy", I think that's even easier to come up with. I've pulled some things off of CD's and then distorted the wave forms so badly, the sound no longer sounded anything like the original sampling. Of course, the results are not always wonderful, but occassionally you wind up with something really nice, as well as unique. >--------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1992 12:34:00 EST From: wbf@CBEMA.ATT.COM Subject: Sample idea sampler Hi all, Joe McMahon's answer to John Conrader's call for EPS 16+ samples reminded me of a posting that George Demarest made on the Sgroup mailing list on the topic. (Sgroup is a Roland Sampler bunch 'o people.) I thought I'd pass it along to emusic-l Bill Fox >From osu-cis!andrew.cmu.edu!nh0n+ Wed Oct 17 16:08:10 1990 remote from att >From: g.f.demarest@mtdca.att.com >To: Sgroup+@andrew.cmu.edu >Subject: Sample idea sampler Here they are: 10 quick sampling ideas ... 1. Take a synth sound that will sustain. Jam the sustain pedal to get an infinite sound. Put your sampler 3 rooms away and run a garden hose from the speaker to the sampler room (where there is a mic). SAMPLE IT. 2. Get a coffee can (empty, half-full, half full with water, jello) close mic it, send output to a chorus, delay or gated reverb. Sample outout of effect. 3. Get an old, old record player (with an indestructible stylus). Take output and put it into a guitar amp. Lift the needle 3 inches. DROP. Let bounce, scrape, kneed, cool on rack and add herbs. mic output of guitar amp. Works well with chipmunk records slowed down so you can tell that Alvin is played by Merv Griffin. SAMPLE IT. 4. Turn on your television to a basketball game. mic the TV speaker and attempt to isolate sneaker noise on gym floor. Put it through any effect you may have. Nike's seem to squeak a lot. 5. Play as many octaves and 5th of a single tone on both of your synths. Have both sustain indefinitely. Put the output speaker (good, or cheap) in your garage. Turn it up loud. Place the mic 10 feet from the speaker in a metal pail. SAMPLE IT. 6. Have a friend (preferably naked) in the next room. Put a mic very close the adjoining wall and have your friend hit the wall with various parts of his/her body. SAMPLE IT. 7. Borrow a portable cassette (a poor quality micro-cassette could be ideal) and close mic any sustained or percussive sound (motor running, fog horn, someone taking a hammer to a dead fish, etc). SAMPLE IT. 8. Take a synth put and put it through a long reverb. Set the reverb so that its output is 100% effect (ie no original signal). Sample that. Short and long. 9. Take a wooden ruler, place it on a desk so that a good 8 inches hang off the edge, apply pressure downward on the part over the desk and with the other hand, pluck the other end (note: this was done with great effect on one of the Art of Noise albums. None the worse for already having been done). 10. Bring your sampler to work. Put a mic near the top of your desk. Pound on your desk with your fist until someone comes in and screams. Sample the fist AND the screams. 11. You get the idea. Zillions of sounds out there to be found, taken and used. Never discount the idea of using outboard effects as part of the sample itself. Sample in Peace, gfd ------------------------------ End of the EMUSIC-L Digest ******************************