EMUSIC-L Digest Volume 50, Issue 01 This issue's topics: Arrangement vs. Timbre in Composition (26 messages) Your EMUSIC-L Digest moderator is Joe McMahon . You may subscribe to EMUSIC-L by sending mail to listserv@american.edu with the line "SUB EMUSIC-L your name" as the text. The EMUSIC-L archive is a service of SunSite (sunsite.unc.edu) at the University of North Carolina. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1993 17:02:17 GMT From: JOEL STERN Subject: CONTRASH Mark Simon asked: >how much of your attention is devoted to "how did they make that >sound"? This is harking back to an earlier (perpetual?) conversation. I usually think, "How did they make that music?", when I hear something that strikes me. But my operating theory is, "in all things, contrast." Whether in reference to timbres or the arrangement of any other musical elements (harmony, melody, dynamics, etc) nothing stays interesting for long unless it contrasts with something else--either concurrently or in sequence. Without contrast what you have is effect, which may be fine, but its not really composition. In my own music, I think timbre is significant but not decisive. The availability of a huge range of timbres can be a nuisance as well as an aid. Joel Stern Library Of Congress stern@mail.loc.gov tel:301-588-8061 fax:301-585-7642 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1993 12:11:19 EST From: Mark Simon Subject: Re: Imelda Marcos and the Culture of Dependency Michael Friesen has hit upon something which goes to the heart of the basic aesthetics of electronic music, which is: where does the essential act of creativity take place? The prevailing attitude among list members here seems to be that the essential creative act takes place when programming sounds, that one cannot hope to create original music with pre-programmed sounds. And if you accept the premise that creating timbres is what music is all about then it make perfect sense that instruments with lots of factory presets and limited programming potential are inadequate. On the other hand, for someone like me who comes from the classical side of the fence, the idea of originality residing in the physical sounds of the music rather than the conceptual patterns formed by the arrangement of these sounds, is ... well, problematic. The instruments I'm most accustomed to have nothing but factory presets. If there's one thing I get out of this list, it's the opportunity to ponder the thought processes of people who start out with totally different assumptions about music. "Timbre-as-music" is a concept I'm still struggling with. Bear with me. Let me ask this of all of you out there: when listening to electronic music, how much of your attention is devoted to "how did they make that sound"? Do the techniques used in making the music override your appreciation of the finished product? I ask this because, as a survivor of an academic music department I've dealt with a full complement of composers who were so wrapped up in permutations of tone-rows and invariant pitch-class matrices that they were deaf to the fact that their creations sounded like absolute sh*t. I've learned to realize that most listeners don't know or care about such technical matters. On the other hand, the idea of the adequacy of an instrument to create whatever sounds strike your fancy keeps striking home to me the more I try to twiddle with the presets on my Proteus, only to settle for something that only approximates what I really wanted. I dunno ... I myself may be more than a little bit inadequate on this front. But I struggle on secure in the knowledge that true creativity lies not in the sounds, but in my ability to arrange them in ways that are exciting, witty, stimulating, etc. Eventually I may even come to incorporate some truly "original" sounds into what I'm doing. --Mark Simon tip@cornellc.cit.cornell.edu "My God, what does sound have to do with music anyway?" --Charles Ives. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1993 11:04:32 PST From: metlay Subject: Re: Arrangement vs. Timbre in Composition > Michael Friesen has hit upon something which goes to the heart of the >basic aesthetics of electronic music, which is: where does the essential >act of creativity take place? The prevailing attitude among list members >here seems to be that the essential creative act takes place when programming >sounds, that one cannot hope to create original music with pre-programmed >sounds. I wouldn't call this a prevailing attitude, even on this List. While there are loud proponents of timbre as music, there are also many eloquent and well-read proponents of the more "classical" approaches, such as yourself and Bill Scott. > And if you accept the premise that creating timbres is what music is >all about then it make perfect sense that instruments with lots of factory >presets and limited programming potential are inadequate. Maybe it's just the semantics here, but I don't like the sound of "accepting as a premise," unless one qualifies it by saying "for your own creative process." You're attempting to devalue your own creative process by comaprison, even if only spuriously and temporarily, which makes me uncomfortable. Rather than a "premise," can we call it a "world view"? Or am I getting stuffy about a non-issue? > On the other hand, for someone like me who comes from the classical >side of the fence, the idea of originality residing in the physical sounds >of the music rather than the conceptual patterns formed by the arrangement >of these sounds, is ... well, problematic. The instruments I'm most accustomed >to have nothing but factory presets. If there's one thing I get out of this >list, it's the opportunity to ponder the thought processes of people who >start out with totally different assumptions about music. "Timbre-as-music" >is a concept I'm still struggling with. Bear with me. Bearing. It's not an easy thing to swallow in one piece. For all of my ranting about timbre, I'm as much enamored of traditional arrangements and their attendant strengths and weaknesses as any other classically trained (baroque woodwinds MANY years ago, in my case) musician. I can be disgusted with a boring chord progression or a lame melody, or wince at a poorly chosen voice leading, just like anyone else, no matter what glorious timbre may be executing it. I find myself freer to explore timbre in the range of music I think you're referring to, the one where the very concepts of harmony and melody are nonexistent or at least very difficult to spot. Timbre-as-music exists most comfortably in a realm where traditional references have been removed, it seems to me. > Let me ask this of all of you out there: when listening to electronic >music, how much of your attention is devoted to "how did they make that >sound"? Do the techniques used in making the music override your appreciation >of the finished product? I ask this because, as a survivor of an academic >music department I've dealt with a full complement of composers who were so >wrapped up in permutations of tone-rows and invariant pitch-class matrices >that they were deaf to the fact that their creations sounded like absolute >sh*t. I've learned to realize that most listeners don't know or care about >such technical matters. It depends very strongly on the type of music and the listening situation, where I'm concerned. If I'm listening to someone like Klaus Schulze or Karlheinz Stockhausen, my initial preconceptions are looser and I find myself more easily intrigued by the sudden nuances of timbre.... "Ooh, that was nice. I wonder how he did THAT?" But in electronic music that uses more traditional song forms, it takes a very skillful arranger to produce music that is beautiful both as arranged notes and as timbre. One of my favorites in this area is a fellow named Richard Burmer, who has four CDs out to date. He writes traditional New Age music, with fairly classically oriented song structures, but his work is enlivened by a good sense of melody and progression in song forms, and by an extraordinary grasp of timbre. He chooses his instrumentation in such a way that the timbres enhance the dynamics and structure of the arrangements themselves, startling and exhilirating the listener. The same can also be said of Kit Watkins, who limits his technical "creativity" to producing clean and artfully-recorded pieces in a basement studio. He doesn't program much any more, and relies on presets, but his compositional strengths are such that one normally doesn't care. On the issue of some music, be it electronic soundscape or tone rows, sounding "like sh*t," that's a value judgement. There's no way to establish a criterion for critiquing of this kind. I will agree that a lot of Twentieth Century music does not excite me, but I am uncomfortably reminded of a nasty incident at my college, when a professor stood up and booed a piece of electronic music at its premiere, and justified himself in an editorial to the alumni magazine wherein he stated flatly that the emusic he'd heard was "ugly" and that he knew "ugly" when he heard it. A lot of people at the concert liked the piece in question, a lot, and many of them were intrigued by its technical aspects. One can't use such differences or accordances in opinion as a sole judge of merit. > On the other hand, the idea of the adequacy of an instrument to create >whatever sounds strike your fancy keeps striking home to me the more I try >to twiddle with the presets on my Proteus, only to settle for something that >only approximates what I really wanted. I dunno... I myself may be more than a >little bit inadequate on this front. But I struggle on secure in the knowledge >that true creativity lies not in the sounds, but in my ability to arrange them >in ways that are exciting, witty, stimulating, etc. Eventually I may even >come to incorporate some truly "original" sounds into what I'm doing. And that's fine. If it suits how you work and what you're doing, then by all means pursue it as you see fit. I doubt that your music will suffer overmuch for a sound or two not being "just so," since that's not the basis for your creative work. But I can see where you'd be a bit frustrated, though... a Proteus is not an ideal machine for learning the art of creating timbre, despite its lovely sounds. Have you ever considered finding a very inexpensive analog synth just as a tool for learning and fun? A front panel full of knobs can do wonders for the beginning noisehound.... -- mike metlay * atomic city * box 81175 pgh pa 15217-0675 * metlay@netcom.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mom was always on time, Dad was always late. Now I'm late, and feel guilty. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1993 14:36:00 EST From: Robert Depin Subject: Re: Arrangement vs. Timbre in Composition Just the following thoughts... It seems this discussion regarding timbre as composition and arrangement etc. could become quite problematic. Thinking from the accoustic domain I can recall hearing a piece that (for me) had a beatiful lyrical melody played on a soprano sax. At the time I heard it the timbre didn't mean a whole lot, I heard the melody. Having heard the same piece several times and trying to imagine it played by other instruments made appreciate the importance timbre had to that melody. From limited personal experience I haven't found many melodies that closely tied to timbre. However, hsitory suggests that a composer "hears" in his musicians hear the various timbres while composing whether working on the full "score" or in reduction. My teacher would indicate instrumentation some place while he was in the earlier stages. I guess the idea I'm putting forth is music ingeneral doesn't normally begin focusing on one element i.e. timbre, melody, harmony, etc.. Yet, serialism (12 tone, specifically) did exactly that, divorce the scale/mode from the piece. I got the feeling from Bob Crispen's post that focusing on one element was no very enjoyable for him. I don't know if what approach to electronic music is best, however, I'd be willing to bet a more balanced approach considering several elements at onnce might yeild some very interesting results. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 10:10:13 EST From: vantomme@SOUND.MUSIC.MCGILL.CA Subject: Inna Gadda Stravinsky Robert Depin writes: > From limited personal experience > I haven't found many melodies that closely tied to timbre. How about the bassoon opening from "The Rite of Spring"? I think (IMHO) that Stravinsky's use of the bassoon was more a timbral decision than a traditional orchestrational decision. I say this only because the melody was, at the time, almost impossible to play because of the instrument of the time. So, I can only guess that this decision was made for a timbral quality. (Of course we'll never know - isn't that the beauty???) Just a thought ... > I guess the idea I'm putting forth is music ingeneral > doesn't normally begin focusing on one element i.e. > timbre, melody, harmony, etc.. Yet, serialism (12 tone, > specifically) did exactly that, divorce the scale/mode > from the piece. Do you think that the early serialists did not consider the intervallic structure of the rows they were choosing to use? I believe that this did play quite a large role - especially in interaction with other rows and the other forms of the same row (R, RI, I). In this way, I think they *replaced* the scale/mode with a new method of arranging pitch. They could easily have called a row by another name - how about a scale. (A row by any other name .... ;) Just my 2 cents. Jason. --- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Jason D. Vantomme Faculty of Music, McGill University Montreal, PQ CANADA email: vantomme@music.mcgill.ca =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 15:43:15 GMT From: JOEL STERN Subject: FREE STANDING TIMBRE? O.K.--Nobody's going to deny that timbre is important in one way or another. But there's more to timbre than Stravinsky's bassoon (anyway, isn't that theme recapped by clarinets and more?). Take my desert island piece of music, for instance: J.S. Bach's Art of (the) Fugue. Was it written for organ or instrumental ensemble?...no one really knows. Does it matter? Depends upon what mood you're in. What about the large corpus of pre-Baroque music written for undefined consorts of instruments? On the other hand, when pre-romantic composers knew they wanted a particular effect they often specified the instrument or at least the family of instruments...the regal accompanying Seneca in Monteverdi's L'Incoronazione di Poppea or Bachs "halo" of strings surrounding Christ's arias and recitative in the St. Matthew Passion. What's my point? I don't know. No, seriously: specific timbres have traditionally been used for effect and much less frequently, if at all, as the organizing principle for musical composition...and that includes Stravinsky (especially in his neo-classical phase) and to a large extent the serialists. Come to think of it, do electronic musicians use timbre any differently? Joel Stern Library Of Congress stern@mail.loc.gov tel:301-588-8061 fax:301-585-7642 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 10:01:57 CST From: crispen Subject: Re: Inna Gadda Stravinsky vantomme@SOUND.MUSIC.MCGILL.CA (Jason D. Vantomme) sez: >How about the bassoon opening from "The Rite of Spring"? I >think (IMHO) that Stravinsky's use of the bassoon was >more a timbral decision than a traditional >orchestrational decision. I say this only because the >melody was, at the time, almost impossible to play >because of the instrument of the time. So, I can only guess >that this decision was made for a timbral quality. (Of >course we'll never know - isn't that the beauty???) Just a >thought ... It's definitely playable on guitar, though. Rush out and get Frank Zappa's _Guitar_ if you'd like to hear that opening bassoon melody played on guitar over the bass line of Inna Gadda Da Vida. +-------------------------------+--------------------------------------+ | Rev. Bob "Bob" Crispen | "IT FOUND ME!" | | crispen@foxy.boeing.com | Campus Crusade for Cthulhu | +-------------------------------+--------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 17:31:00 GMT+0100 From: CGRA%BTMA74@SE.ALCBEL.BE Subject: Re: Inna Gadda Stravinsky vantomme@SOUND.MUSIC.MCGILL.CA (Jason D. Vantomme) sez: >How about the bassoon opening from "The Rite of Spring"? I >think (IMHO) that Stravinsky's use of the bassoon was >more a timbral decision than a traditional >orchestrational decision. I say this only because the >melody was, at the time, almost impossible to play >because of the instrument of the time. So, I can only guess >that this decision was made for a timbral quality. (Of >course we'll never know - isn't that the beauty???) Just a >thought ... almost impossible. And the timbre is truly weird - only a bassoonist ^^^^^^ could be expected to correctly identify the source of that sound. Of course there are loads of examples of music of the last 200 years in which the orchestration is a primary element, not just superficial "rendering". Um, OK, that takes me back to 1793... ah yes, Haydn, Symphony 100, with the "Turkish Musick", i.e. bass drum and cymbals - come to think of it No.22 goes back even further, and that just _has_ to be a cor anglais... - and Rev. Bob "Bob" Crispen replize: >It's definitely playable on guitar, though. Rush out and get >Frank Zappa's _Guitar_ if you'd like to hear that opening bassoon >melody played on guitar over the bass line of Inna Gadda Da Vida. I might just do that - especially if FZ has his foot on the WahWah pedal. Now if I'd heard that and no one had warned me, I would probably have spent a week trying to puzzle out where I'd heard that tune before. Why? Because in the Stravinsky version the timbre and the melody are inextricably linked in my mind. Cheers, Chris (who once could play bassoon - but not _that_ bit) __________________________________________________________________________ Chris Gray | Any views expressed are those of the author and not of cgra@se.alcbel.be | Alcatel Bell, Technology Project Services, the British Compu$erve: | Computer Society, Whale and Dolphin Conservation Soc., 100065.2102 | Scottish Youth Hostels Association, etc. etc. etc. __________________________________________________________________________ A closed mouth catches no feet ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 12:30:10 -0500 From: bgood@SUNDAGGER.LERC.NASA.GOV Subject: Inna Gadda Stravinsky >Robert Depin writes: >> From limited personal experience >> I haven't found many melodies that closely tied to timbre. >Jason Vantomme counters: >How about the bassoon opening from "The Rite of Spring"? I >think (IMHO) that Stravinsky's use of the bassoon was >more a timbral decision than a traditional >orchestrational decision. ... a position supported by the lyrics to the bassoon part: I-i-i-i'm not an english horn.... This part's too high for me.... :^) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 11:57:21 CST From: Michael Whitten Subject: Kit Watkins On March 24, 1993, the Subject: was Arrangement vs. Timbre in Composition and Mike Metlay said: >arrangements themselves, startling and exhilirating the listener. The >same can also be said of Kit Watkins, who limits his technical ^^^^^^^^^^^ >"creativity" to producing clean and artfully-recorded pieces in a basement >studio. He doesn't program much any more, and relies on presets, but >his compositional strengths are such that one normally doesn't care. > >-- >mike metlay * atomic city * box 81175 pgh pa 15217-0675 * metlay@netcom.com This is serious memory-jogging to me. Does anyone know the whereabouts of Kit Watkins? Or how to obtain any of his releases? Or if he's on the net? Kit had a great influence on me as a composer when I knew him. This is when he was still with Happy The Man in VA, mucking about with Minimoog, String Ensemble, and trusty Revox. I agree with Mike here, Kit is a master. Michael ---------------------------------------------------------- Michael Whitten | Yoyodyne Industries m-whit2@vm1.spcs.umn.edu | m-whit2@staff.tc.umn.edu | "The Future Begins Tomorrow" ---------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 13:27:00 EST From: Robert Depin Subject: Timbre, Stravinsky, et al Jason writes: Do you think that the early serialists did not consider the intervallic structure of the rows they were choosing to use? I believe that this did play quite a large role - especially in interaction with other rows and the other forms of the same row (R, RI, I). In this way, I think they *replaced* the scale/mode with a new method of arranging pitch. They could easily have called a row by another name - how about a scale. (A row by any other name .... ;) Just my 2 cents. I believe this whole heartedly. Since the row will defines the pitch content of the piece I would hope that the composer makes a conscious decision about each note. I had a composition teacher who would use latin American folk tunes as the basis of his rows. In this context I might be persuaded to consider the row a scale, however, in serial music which is based on sequential organization the term "scale" may not be applicable. Regarding, timbres: I agree with the Stravinsky example, however I put forth the idea that niether the timbre or the melody happened seperately, i.e. Stravinsky heard the timbre playing that melody. Maybe he sought out a bassonist to play in that upper range to be sure what he "heard" was indeed scored for the cor- rect instrument. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 20:50:26 PST From: metlay Subject: Re: Kit Watkins >>same can also be said of Kit Watkins, who limits his technical > >This is serious memory-jogging to me. Does anyone know the whereabouts of >Kit Watkins? Or how to obtain any of his releases? Or if he's on the net? >Kit had a great influence on me as a composer when I knew him. This is when >he was still with Happy The Man in VA, mucking about with Minimoog, String >Ensemble, and trusty Revox. I agree with Mike here, Kit is a master. If Kit is on the Net, he keeps his email address a secret. Since Happy the Man broke up after recording but not releasing their thrid album, Kit has been happily toiling away in his home studio (hence my reference to him), doing solo and duet albums of music ranging from ambient experiments to rock to jazz to interpretations of classical music. KEYBOARD magazine has always followed his career faithfully and given good press to his albums as they come out. He toured with Camel, too... Nowadays, Kit has a company called Linden Music (box 520, Linden, VA 22642) with a large catalog of stuff by Kit and other artists, including former Happy the Man drummer Coco Roussel, Carl weingarten, newcomer Kim Justice, and KEYBOARD columnist Jim Aikin. The catalog is free, and has a lot of great CDs on it. I buy everything Kit releases out of instinct, and am rarely disappointed. I can make specific recommendations if people wish, but my own faves are THOUGHT TONES 1 (ambient), SUNSTRUCK (electronic rock and freeform), and IN TIME (his phenomenal duo with Coco Roussel-- a best first buy). I don't know Kit personally, but he and I have corresponded in the past, and I admire him a great deal. Anyone who wants to know just how good a job a careful recordist can do at home should listen to Kit, and to Richard Burmer. You may or may not like the music, but you have to admire the craftsmanship. -- mike metlay * atomic city * box 81175 pgh pa 15217-0675 * metlay@netcom.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mom was always on time, Dad was always late. Now I'm late, and feel guilty. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1993 07:19:30 GMT From: William V Bassett Subject: Re: Inna Gadda Stravinsky Organization: Columbia University >vantomme@SOUND.MUSIC.MCGILL.CA (Jason D. Vantomme) writes: > >>How about the bassoon opening from "The Rite of Spring"? I >>think (IMHO) that Stravinsky's use of the bassoon was >>more a timbral decision than a traditional >>orchestrational decision. I say this only because the >>melody was, at the time, almost impossible to play >>because of the instrument of the time. So, I can only guess >>that this decision was made for a timbral quality. (Of >>course we'll never know - isn't that the beauty???) Just a >>thought ... > I didn't see the original posting, so maybe I missed something, but it seems to me that there is little or no difference between an orchestrational decision (traditional or not) and a timbral decision. Wouldn't you say that an orchestrational decision is defined by the question "What timbre will this have?" Of course, a traditional orchestration book is often caught up with the question of making things practical and playable. But I wouldn't want to hear too many pieces where the orchestration decisions were made without thinking about timbre.... Rick Bassett wvb3@cunixa.columbia.edu rick@woof.music.columbia.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1993 08:14:00 EST From: Robert Depin Subject: re: Free Standing Timbre... Joel writes: >Come to think of it, do electronic musicians use timbre any differently? I think this is what began this discussion. That electronic musicians create music based on timbre first. The point made regarding Bach's music, and probably most baroque music, that timbre really isn't important is true. Many arguments have raged over whether the Goldberg Variations should be performed on piano or harpsichord. I like the term "absolute music" to describe this music since timbre (orchestration) is of little importantance. I believe this contributed to the success of W. Carlos' "Switched on Bach" recordings. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1993 14:22:58 +0100 From: Patrice Tarabbia Subject: re: Free Standing Timbre... IMHO music is based on MELODY. Once you got a melody, whatever timbre you use for playing it and for background is only cosmetics for the tune, but the tune IS the melody. Using a different timbre is then analog to reharmonization. Patrice. tarabbia@cenatls.cena.dgac.fr ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1993 09:15:08 EST From: wbf@ALUXPO.ATT.COM Subject: What Is Music? Patrice wrote: > IMHO music is based on MELODY. Once you got a melody, whatever timbre > you use for playing it and for background is only cosmetics for the > tune, but the tune IS the melody. Using a different timbre is then > analog to reharmonization. I think that this is a true statement, given the stated premise that music is based on melody. And in pop, and other types of music, this is exceedingly true. But when I think in more avant garde terms, then I believe that the above statement is only a subset of music. At which point, some may argue, I've left the realm of music, while others may say I've only begun to open up my mind to unlimited possibilities. Possibilities like music based only on rhythm, or timbre, or notes selected by tarot cards, or 100 random cassette tapes chopped into random lengths under 4cm, mixed well and spliced back together randomly so that order and direction are haphazzard. By now some may think me either a crackpot or enlightened; your choice because music is personal. Whatever speaks to your heart, soul, intellect, etc., is music. (I rarely make statements like that because it can cause almost as much discussion as religion can. I just hope that we all learn tolerance, be happy with the choices we make, and allow others to make their own choices.) Bill Fox 215-439-7217 wbf@alux1.att.com AT&T Bell Labs 555 Union Blvd. Rm. 1B-107 Allentown, PA 18103 (USA) "If we mind the minutiae, a gratifying gestalt results." - ME! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1993 09:31:05 EST From: Mark Simon Subject: Re: Inna Gadda Stravinsky I heard an interesting anecdote about that Rite of Spring bassoon solo, (and I wish I could remember where it came from so I could cite it), but according to the story Stravinsky, in his old age was so struck by the ability of bassoonists, 50 years later, to render that solo effortlessly, and with perfect intonation, that he declared "if I had known bassoonists were going to learn to play this so perfectly I would have written it even higher and harder". Obviously the element of "struggle" was inherent in his conception this opening passage and he was no doubt disappointed that musicians were making it sound beautiful rather than earthy and primeval, as he wanted it. Which shows you, by the way, just how important timbre can be in communicating musical meaning. I didn't mean to make people think I was totally insensitive to timbre. I do, though, tend to think of music as some kind of abstract entity of which the sound is merely the physical manifestation. This is not entirely true. The physical inevitably influences the spiritual. Still, if I may introduce another metaphor, given a choice between a woman with brains and a "stacked blonde", I'll go for the brains every time. Beautiful girls tend to learn early on that they don't have to use their brains, they can get whatever they want just by making goo-goo eyes at the appropriate male, which is too bad. Which is too bad, because what you really want is someone who can think and look good at the same time. I'm not sure if any of this is relevant, but heck it's Friday. --Mark Simon tip@cornellc.cit.cornell.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1993 14:49:19 AST From: Alan Edwards Subject: Re: Free Standing Timbre... In message <9303261513.AA01548@unb.ca> Robert Depin writes: > Joel writes: > >Come to think of it, do electronic musicians use timbre any differently? > > I think this is what began this discussion. That electronic musicians create > music based on timbre first. > > The point made regarding Bach's music, and probably most baroque music, that > timbre really isn't important is true. Many arguments have raged over whether > the Goldberg Variations should be performed on piano or harpsichord. I like > the term "absolute music" to describe this music since timbre (orchestration) > is of little importantance. I believe this contributed to the success of > W. Carlos' "Switched on Bach" recordings. > I recall seeing Rosalyn Turek, the harpsichordist/pianist demonstrate this quite vividly. She played a segment of Bach on the harpsichord, a piano, and a polymoog, and it worked well in each case. She then played some Beethoven on the piano where it sounded wonderful, then on the harpsichord where it did not work nearly so well, and then on the moog, where it didn't work at all. Beethoven's piece obviously relied on the tonality (and sustaining) of the piano, where Bach didn't. This is why a LOT of baroque music has been done on synth, and not so much classical. It is much harder to find timbres that work, since clssical relies more on the timbres than baroque. (IMHO) Alan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1993 10:12:19 -0500 From: Brian Adamson Subject: re: Free Standing Timbre... >IMHO music is based on MELODY. Once you got a melody, whatever timbre you use > for >playing it and for background is only cosmetics for the tune, but the tune IS > the >melody. Using a different timbre is then analog to reharmonization. > >Patrice. >tarabbia@cenatls.cena.dgac.fr Besides the fact that not all music is necessarily based on melody (e.g. Steve Reich and some other percussion-base music (not "music")), you certaintly can't discount the contribution of harmony in melodic music as background cosmetics ... Much of the emotion (if your concerned about emotion in music) lies your harmonic cosmetics and harmony is a direct result of timbre ..... for example, if you look at the odd harmonics which dominate woodwind sound as compared to other instrumentation such as brass, or the non-harmonic components of percussive instruments .... you find that chord voicings which produce the music you, the composer, is trying to accomplish are greatly affected by timbre ... Even with relatively similar instruments (e.g. piano & guitar) different chord voicings are required to produce certain musical results ... and to continue I submit that different instruments (or timbres) are required to produce specific musical (and I mean specifically *musical*) results. So, given that emotional musical expression can be a function of timbre to some degree, and out of curiosity, has anyone though about the impact to culture (via music & art) as the result of timbre-producing technology? Or is timbre-producing technology a function of culture. I think the answer is probably a two-way street... :) ____________________________________________________________________ | _ _ _ | | /|\ /\ /\_ _ /\ /\ R. Brian Adamson | | / || / / / / / / / / Naval Research Laboratory | | / /|| / / /_/_ _/ / / / Information Technology Division | | / / || / / / \_|\_\/ / / Code 5523 | | / / ||/ / / / || / / | | / / |/ / / / || /_/_ _ adamson@itd.nrl.navy.mil | | \/ \/ \/ \ \ _ _ _\ | |____________________________________________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1993 15:15:40 MET From: cgra@BTMA74.DNET Subject: re: Free Standing Timbre... >IMHO music is based on MELODY. Once you got a melody, whatever timbre you use > for >playing it and for background is only cosmetics for the tune, but the tune IS > the >melody. Using a different timbre is then analog to reharmonization. > >Patrice. >tarabbia@cenatls.cena.dgac.fr Nah. The melody is there to decorate the harmonies, which in turn are there to help articulate the rhythm. Chris ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1993 16:53:56 -0500 From: WSCOTT@ACS.WOOSTER.EDU Subject: Re: Inna Gadda Stravinsky Larry Coryell did a guitar version of Rites of Spring. Sounds terrible. IMHO IMHO IMHO Bill Scott ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1993 09:42:39 +0000 From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Timbre If you believe the theory that music (melody lines in particular) is an abstraction of the human voice, then timbre is important. There's a big different between a singer following a melody line by singing "oooh" and by singing "aaah." I've long followed this philosophy, implicitly I think, since this is the first time I've really thought about it. If yer primeval musical form is people singing/chanting and drumming, and we're somehow emotionally connected to that, then we're going to be clued into rhythm in some fundamental way (which I think is true) and we're going to analyse the timbre of notes, melody lines in particular, according to the formant quality they have. Just a pet theory. You might disagree. I suspect it might explain why a lot of my lead sounds are vaguely formant-like, and why I consider timbre to be crucial (I have to get the "words" right), and also why I like the PPG and have a great affinity for vocoders. Nick. "This thing's alive!" - Chick Corea on the Yamaha SY99, July 1992 "This thing's dead!" - Nick Rothwell on the Ensoniq VFX, April 1991 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1993 03:36:31 -0500 From: cgra@BTMA74.DNET Subject: Re: Inna Gadda Stravinsky I've probably "contributed" too much to this thread already, but I can't resist mentioning some acoustic music I heard at the weekend... Local composer Luc Brewaes had been commissioned to write a piece for the inauguration of Antwerp as European Cultural Capital. The piece was 30 minutes long and was performed several times a day throughout the weekend, in the foyer of the Central Station (a sort of mid-C19 basilica, complete with galleries alla San Marco). The orchestration: one french horn, 22 (yes twenty-two) clarinets, and a whole heap of percussion. (The whole band were billed as coming from the small town of Mol. The place must have been half-empty over the weekend.) Melody? We were threatened with something towards the end. Harmony? If you count drones and clusters, yes. Rhythm? Sporadic. Texture? YOU BET... I went along on Saturday afternoon. Joe Public was out in force, it was like the Proms... apart from a few dissenters, they cheerfully stood through this stuff for half an hour and then applauded enthusiastically. Just thought you guys'd like to know... __________________________________________________________________________ Chris Gray | Any views expressed are those of the author and not of cgra@se.alcbel.be | Alcatel Bell, Technology Project Services, the British Compu$erve: | Computer Society, Whale and Dolphin Conservation Soc., 100065.2102 | Scottish Youth Hostels Association, etc. etc. etc. __________________________________________________________________________ A closed mouth catches no feet ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1993 08:28:59 -0500 From: SHRINER@BUTLERU.BITNET Subject: Re: Inna Gadda Brewaes >>Melody? We were threatened with something towards the end. Harmony? If you >>count drones and clusters, yes. Rhythm? Sporadic. Texture? YOU BET... >>I went along on Saturday afternoon. Joe Public was out in force, it was like >>the Proms... apart from a few dissenters, they cheerfully stood through this >>stuff for half an hour and then applauded enthusiastically.<< So what is your point? ____________________________________________________________________ charles___shriner@butler.edu Composition & Sound Design Studio or__ccps@mindvox.phantom.com Indpls., IN VOX:317.254.0739 FAX:317.283.9930 ATT Woodruff ____________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1993 16:22:22 -0500 From: WSCOTT@ACS.WOOSTER.EDU Subject: Re: Timbre regarding the following from Nick Rothwell: "If you believe the theory that music (melody lines in particular) is an abstraction of the human voice, then timbre is important. There's a big different between a singer following a melody line by singing "oooh" and by singing "aaah." I've long followed this philosophy, implicitly I think, since this is the first time I've really thought about it. If yer primeval musical form is people singing/chanting and drumming, and we're somehow emotionally connected to that, then we're going to be clued into rhythm in some fundamental way (which I think is true) and we're going to analyse the timbre of notes, melody lines in particular, according to the formant quality they have." I agree, but would go beyond the formant quality toward seeing music as an abstraction of a single (connected) performer, with not only a voicebox, but four articulated limbs. It's interesting to see the effects of putting flourescent spots on the joints and extremities of otherwise blackened dancers in a dark room. The observer immediately organizes the spots into the human figures that they belong to. Over here in the USA, I was struck recently by a radio commercial from McDonalds restaurants wherein a man "sings the blues" about not getting breakfast from his woman. It's a terrible ad but I was struck by the sense that I could hear that this fellow was actually playing the guitar as he sang rather than being accompanied by someone else (I was struck by the effect, not necessarily the reality). There seemed to be an interaction between phrases as well as a seeming timbral effect on the voice that occured when there was a solid downstroke of the guitar (which would come from a lying with the guitar on your chest). The effect was to connect the accompaniment with the voice in a natural way. It struck me that one should keep this kind of thing in mind while composing. Bill Scott ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1993 15:34:44 EST From: Michael McGinnis Subject: Re: FREE STANDING TIMBRE? i'm relatively new at this email thing, but in terms of timbre and Bach, his music is unique in that it transfers from one instrument to another quite easily and beautifully. but most others music doesn't sound as good, myself. as far as any electronic music i write goes, i may have a melody and rhythm, etc... but it just doesn't "work". i don't know though this is just from limited personal experience. i believe timbre is extremely important. mike from ecuvm1 ------------------------------ End of the EMUSIC-L Digest ******************************