EMUSIC-L Digest Volume 49, Issue 03 This issue's topics: Is the Korg 01/W better than the Yamaha SY (31 messages) Your EMUSIC-L Digest moderator is Joe McMahon . Please send articles to emusic-d@auvm.american.edu (EMUSIC-D@AUVM for BITNet). Administrative mail should be directed to listserv@auvm.american.edu (LISTSERV@AUVM for BITNet). Digests will be distributed as time permits. For faster response to questions, subscribe to EMUSIC-L by sending mail to EMUSIC-L@AUVM (emusic-l@auvm.american.edu for Internet subscribers) with the line "SUB EMUSIC-L your name" as the text. The EMUSIC-L discussion group can also be accessed through the bit.listserv.emusic-l newsgroup on Usenet. Subscribers to this list may send articles directly to it; they will be reviewed and forwarded to EMUSIC-L. Back issues are available from the editor. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1993 18:26:38 +0000 From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Froese and the Korg 01/W Edgar Froese, about Tangerine Dream, from the first issue of Korg ProView: "We know there are people who like to recreate our sounds, so you have to give them a chance to do it and not move too far away from the original preset sounds." I consider this to be conclusive proof that Froese's brain is now well and truly pickled. Nick Rothwell | cassiel@cassiel.demon.co.uk CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance | cassiel@cix.compulink.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1993 11:12:53 PST From: metlay Subject: Re: Froese and the Korg 01/W >Edgar Froese, about Tangerine Dream, from the first issue of Korg ProView: > > "We know there are people who like to recreate our sounds, > so you have to give them a chance to do it and not move > too far away from the original preset sounds." > >I consider this to be conclusive proof that Froese's brain is now well and >truly pickled. What, ROCKOON wasn't good enough for you? Hell, I wrote the bastard off when TYGER came out. But if you want the final nail in the coffin, I recommend the interview with him that ran in i/e magazine recently, in which he loudly and staunchly defends his current music as being the best he's ever done. Whulp. -- mike metlay * atomic city * box 81175 pgh pa 15217-0675 * metlay@netcom.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Hah! Fat chance! What's your next plan? Have your period in my ear?" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1993 14:41:40 -0500 From: WSCOTT@ACS.WOOSTER.EDU Subject: Re: Froese and the Korg 01/W one of my favorite quotes from Edgar Froese is: "If you can't make your music by blowing through a comb, then you might as well give it up" Said in an interview during last American tour. Maybe he's got the "need to simplify". I do. BIll Scott ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1993 21:23:52 +0000 From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Re: Froese and the Korg 01/W >What, ROCKOON wasn't good enough for you? Never heard any of it. MELROSE (and the dreadful "live" concert) was the last straw. >Hell, I wrote the bastard off >when TYGER came out. I have no problem with TYGER, and I think it's pretty good. But then, Franke was still there to guide the composition and arrangement, and put his creative efforts into using the technology well and giving the work some imaginative touches, and space. After that, well, OPTICAL RACE was not so much downhill as over the cliff. Nick Rothwell | cassiel@cassiel.demon.co.uk CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance | cassiel@cix.compulink.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1993 21:24:00 +0000 From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Re: Froese and the Korg 01/W > "If you can't make your music by blowing through a comb, > then you might as well give it up" No problem with that; just give me a decent effects processor... >Maybe he's got the "need to simplify". I do. Fine, but he's not doing it. I don't see that sticking to presets simplifies things. It might make his job easier, but it doesn't improve or simplify the music. If anything, custom programming can lead to simpler music since you can make a smaller set of sounds provide the timbral and/or atmospheric focus, and have much tighter control over them. Nick Rothwell | cassiel@cassiel.demon.co.uk CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance | cassiel@cix.compulink.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1993 15:21:04 PST From: metlay Subject: Re: Froese and the Korg 01/W >I have no problem with TYGER, and I think it's pretty good. But then, >Franke was still there to guide the composition and arrangement, and put >his creative efforts into using the technology well and giving the work >some imaginative touches, and space. You're more forgiving and more reverent of Chris than I am, my friend. I thought the use of the vocalist and the poetry was wretchedly out of place and ruined the whole album. >After that, well, OPTICAL RACE was not so much downhill as over the cliff. Well, yes... -- mike metlay * atomic city * box 81175 pgh pa 15217-0675 * metlay@netcom.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Hah! Fat chance! What's your next plan? Have your period in my ear?" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1993 11:51:49 EST From: Dan Kessler Subject: Korg 01/W Sorry, I know this belongs on synth-L, but every time I post on synth-L, it it doesn't distribute. Anyway, I would like some professional opinions. I purchased a Korg 01/W over a Yamaha SY85, mainly because the SY85 has a background noise problem when the metronome volume is turned up. Aside from the background noise, which is a better synth? Keep in mind, I only paid $1475 for the Korg (new) which was $20 more than the SY85. The only thing I don't like about the Korg is lack of sample RAM. I know of a device for the M1 called the Frontal Lobe which adds sample RAM. Does anyone know if this works with the 01/W? How much does it cost discounted? Two other questions, how are the Korg ROM PCM cards? Also, are 01/W patches anywhere to be found on an FTP or BBS? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1993 18:08:32 PST From: metlay Subject: Re: Is the Korg 01/W better than the Yamaha SY77? Dan Kessler asks: >Sorry, I know this belongs on synth-L, but every time I post on synth-L, it >it doesn't distribute. Anyway, I would like some professional opinions. I >purchased a Korg 01/W over a Yamaha SY85, mainly because the SY85 has a >background noise problem when the metronome volume is turned up. Aside from >the background noise, which is a better synth? Keep in mind, I only paid $1475 >for the Korg (new) which was $20 more than the SY85. The only thing I don't >like about the Korg is lack of sample RAM. I know of a device for the M1 >called the Frontal Lobe which adds sample RAM. Does anyone know if this works >with the 01/W? How much does it cost discounted? Two other questions, how are >the Korg ROM PCM cards? Also, are 01/W patches anywhere to be found on an FTP >or BBS? Dan: Check your posting options for SYNTH-L: your messages have gotten distributed every time, I just don't think they're being echoed back to you (yes, the behavior for EMUSIC-L and SYNTH-L can be set differently in this regard). In fact, I have seen you ask this set of questions at least five times so far, and have been pointedly ignoring you. As has everyone else, apparently. Facts first: the 01/W uses a different memory form factor than the M1, so I find it unlikely that the PCM Channel add-on to the Frontal Lobe will work with it. The Frontal Lobe itself is a sequencer and memory expansion/storage device for the M1; the PCM Channel is necessary to plug in new PCM waves. They're rarely available discounted, as they're not commonly-stocked items and don't show up used that often. The ROM wave cards are quite tasty with salsa and sliced jalapenos. And I'm sure there's a FTP site out there somewhere with 01/W sounds.... Now to your first and apparently most pressing question: did you do the right thing when you spent all that money on an 01/W? You apparently need reassurance on this matter, as the intrument itself seems incapable of convincing you. This is a bad sign; it indicates that you are not able to make a value judgement on your own concerning a piece of gear you're planning to put to your own uses. Well, then, Dan, I have bad news for you. You guessed WRONG. You made a bad mistake in buying the 01/W; Korg is already selling better versions right now, and in less than two years will have superseded the 01 series with something even fancier that does more for less money, and you'll be kicking yourself for not waiting a little longer before blowing your wad on that obsolete 01/W sitting in the corner and gathering dust because you couldn't bear to touch it after the new ads came out. Knowing that you were suckered into buying the wrong synth. But take heart; the SY would have been the wrong choice too, and it's ALREADY obsolete. You were going to get screwed no matter what you chose. And we all knew it out here on the List, which is why we've been ignoring you and hoping you'd go away. Feel better? Of course you don't. You feel angry as hell for being publicly berated this way. I've insulted your intelligence, your musical ability, and your lack of free will in front of hundreds of fellow musicians! So tell me, kid: what are you going to do about it? You can't change the facts-- you came out here and asked which of two keyboards SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to be all-in-one no-brainer boxes for the use of newbie musicians who can't be bothered to hook up separate components to create their own sounds is "better." The oldest saw we know is that NO synth is "better" than another, and that the question itself is meaningless and reflects only the lack of focus in the person asking it. But it's not polite to rub someone's nose in his ignorance, so the proper thing to do is to ignore the question and hope someone else is feeling kind enough to give the newbie a nice answer.... ... until the newbie posts his question to the wrong newsgroup in an effort to get SOMEONE to listen to him. These questions don't belong on EMUSIC-L, and it's not my fault that SYNTH-L ignored you before this. I just spent nearly twice what you did on an eight-voice synth with no sample ROM waves, no sequencer, no onboard effects, and no other cool-hip modern features-- and I'm incredibly happy, because I know what I needed and I got it. I can't make you happy with your purchase, and neither can anyone else. My advice is as follows: turn off this List until you have had a chance to get to know your 01/W, and don't go looking for FTP sites or BBSes for new sounds until you write some of your own. Unless you're a pro who needs the newest presets immediately, you should always have time to work with your new toys and decide for yourself whether or not you're doing the wise thing. The 01/W is a piece of garbage, in my opinion. I would never spend money on one. But there are MANY people out there who love them and find their capabilities wondrous. Since you've spent the money on yours, don't you owe it to your wallet to try to make up your OWN mind whether it's "good" before you start regretting buying....oh, never mind. Forget it. -- mike metlay * atomic city * box 81175 pgh pa 15217-0675 * metlay@netcom.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- little fluffy clouds little fluffy clouds lit lit lit little fluffy clouds ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1993 21:46:03 EST From: Dan Kessler Subject: Re: Is the Korg 01/W better than the Yamaha SY I don't see why I can't get a straight answer to my question. I can get an answer from salesmen, but obviously they are not the ones to ask. Yes, I need reassurance that I made the right decision. It's very hard when you are a college student to spend your ENTIRE earnings from the past year and not feel bad about it. I am not asking which synth is better only on musical terms. The Korg blew me away when I heard it. I wanted to know what pros thought of it so that I'd know which synth had a higher trade-in value. Money matters a lot when you have no income. Regarding patch programming...I'm taking organic chemistry. I don't have the time to fiddle with my synth for hours. If anyone would care to give me straight, non-obnoxious answers to my questions, I would greatly appreciate it. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1993 08:16:02 EST From: "Sean F. Jepson" Subject: Re: Is the Korg 01/W better than the Yamaha SY77? Hey Mike who made you God? What kind of asshole response was that! I guess it shows what sort of hot head you think you really are. As for the Korg and Yamaha question I don't like their current products either. I do own some old Korg stuff but their new stuff lacks character. Thats just my opinion. Anyways how many times do we have to listen to you say you will eventually get that album pressed and distributed? Something to think about! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sean Jepson ---------------------------------------------------------- USDA, Economic Research Service ------------------------------------ SJEPSON@ERS.BITNET --------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1993 07:49:25 CST From: Mark Borcherding Subject: Re: Is the Korg 01/W better than the Yamaha SY77? I use the Korg 01/Wfd and am very pleased with it! So far I have found few 3rd party Combinations/Programs that are really good. But, the machine is capable if you take a little time to put your own together. Which I did the 1st week I got the system and may sell them thru local music store. Any system or accoustic instrument can generate trash or music depending on the person behind it. The Korg 01/W can generate great sounds. Note: there will always be a better system but you can always make up for that with creativity. Mark. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1993 09:28:03 -0500 From: "Joseph D. McMahon" Subject: Re: Is the Korg 01/W better than the Yamaha SY77? There have been several responses to Mike's posting on the 01/W. These have not been polite, reasoned responses pointing out why Mike is wrong, These have been name-calling and venting of bad feelings. We don't do that here. If you have a specific point to counter, please do so. If you want to lambaste someone. Do It Off The List. I will put in my two cents here: I possess an Ensoniq VFXsd (version I), which Mike wouldn't be caught dead with. He will, however, admit that I get good stuff out of it. That is the point here. It doesn't matter if the synth you buy is outmoded tomorrow if you are a MUSICIAN. If you are a musician, you will work with the tool you have and get what you want out of it. If you are enjoying what you are getting out of the tool, you aren't going to WANT to sell it. If you are purchasing a keyboard with the resale value being a primary consideration, you are not purchasing the right thing. A keyboard is, relatively speaking, money badly spent (if you're investing). They depreciate fast, are replaced by new models faster that you can blink, and become last year's news in a matter of days. Don't worry about whether you can sell it. Worry about whether you can get the music you want out of it. If you can, then the money was justified. --- Joe M. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1993 16:34:30 GMT From: Jon Deutsch Subject: Re: Is the Korg 01/W better than the Yamaha SY In article Dan Kessler writes: |chemistry. I don't have the time to fiddle with my synth for hours. If anyone |>would care to give me straight, non-obnoxious answers to my questions, I would |>greatly appreciate it. The Korg 01/W sounds great 4 the bucks. No doubt. Also, Korg keyboards are known for their durability -- Korgs are hardly ever in the repair shop. (whereas Roland is a completely different matter) So, you'll get a pretty high resale on the 01/W, as many hundreds of people are on their M1s. X-------------------+--------------+-----------------------X | | |\ |>jon@chopin.udel.edu<| "For my 2 cents, | | \|on |/eutsch |>>-----------------<<| I'd pay a dollar" | X------+--------------------+--------------------+---------X ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1993 16:03:28 PST From: metlay Subject: Re: Is the Korg 01/W better than the Yamaha SY Time to confirm everyone's opinion of me, I suppose.... Dan Kessler (the originator of this thread, hence the only person whose tappy-tappings deserve an answer) writes: >I don't see why I can't get a straight answer to my question. Because as you originally stated it, it was a NULL question, kid. "Which synth is better?" means NOTHING until you qualify it, as you go on to do below. >I can get an answer from salesmen, but obviously they are not the ones to ask. I humbly submit that you're buying your gear at the wrong store. I choose my retailers such that I can ask them a question and get an answer I'll trust. I do realize that's tough for a newbie to do, but it shouldn't be impossible. With the Net at your disposal, I am sure you could have asked a question like "who's a reputable, honest and knowledgeable dealer I can talk to?" here and gotten a number of good answers. >Yes, I need >reassurance that I made the right decision. It's very hard when you are a >college student to spend your ENTIRE earnings from the past year and not feel >bad about it. Buying my first synth cost me all of MY income after taxes and tuition for over a year and a half, and I was positively ecstatic when that money flew out the indow and flew back as a synthesizer. Still am, seven years later. Hm? 'Scuse me. EIGHT years later. >I am not asking which synth is better only on musical terms. Rather than point out that little else matters as much, I will simply state that you never SPECIFIED what "terms" you wished to have addressed in your original posts, kid. ANY of them. You asked, and I quote: "Which is better?". End quote. It is a meaninglessly vague question, undeserving of an answer. >The Korg blew me away when I heard it. **FINE!** End of discussion! If the sound makes you happy, it's a good purchase! What else could you possibly need to know?.... >I wanted to know what pros thought of >it so that I'd know which synth had a higher trade-in value. Money matters a >lot when you have no income. Oh man. It blew you away, and you're only quaking in your boots because you're worrying about getting a good price when you SELL it?! You haven't even had it for three years yet! It's WAY too early to worry about unloading the damn thing. And what makes you think you can trust the "pros" any more than you can trust a salesman on this issue? Korg gives away dozens of synths a year to famous people to ensure the visibility of their product (see the recent interview with Michael Wolff of Arsenio Hall's "Posse" in KEYBOARD, where he explains that he uses Korg rather than Roland gear because ROland wouldn't give him everything for free). >Regarding patch programming...I'm taking organic >chemistry. I don't have the time to fiddle with my synth for hours. Then why'd you BUY it? I always found time to fiddle with my synths when I couldn't think about quantum mechanics or many-body theory any more without having my head explode. If you just want to PLAY the thing, and the sounds make you happy, then just PLAY it! Stop worrying about what price it'll bring when you get bored with it and enjoy it NOW. You'll sleep more soundly and make a lot better music. >If anyone >would care to give me straight, non-obnoxious answers to my questions, I would >greatly appreciate it. Straight, yes. Non-obnoxious? Glad to, when you bother to put the effort into formulating your questions coherently. "Which synth is better?" is NOT a suitable question. "Which of the two synths mentioned above is likely to give me the best aftermarket support now, and resale value down the road?", on the other hand, IS a suitable question, with a simple answer: Korg and Yamaha are two of the most stable, solvent comapnies in the business right now, and neither one is going to leave you hanging. Of the two, Korg appears to have a slight edge in longevity of support, but this is largely due to the continuing success of the M1 and its children whereas Yamaha has been flailing to get the SY series to catch fire the way the DX series did way back when. The 01/W will retain as much or more of its value than any SY series box for the foreseeable future, unless the market changes drastically in a way we cannot predict. Okay? -- mike metlay * atomic city * box 81175 pgh pa 15217-0675 * metlay@netcom.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- don't give me wings and take away my sky.... (nona) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1993 07:50:44 +0000 From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Re: Is the Korg 01/W better than the Yamaha SY >I don't see why I can't get a straight answer to my question. Because there isn't one. Hey ho, and I thought I was the only one who got into such a bad mood over the Net (two weeks ago, I called the entire readership of rec.music.makers.synth stupid). And here's metlay feeling, hmm, "not kind." Oh well. it happens. One thing I will tell you, though, is that metlay postings of this length, regardless of style or tone, are usually rather enlightnening and informative. I should know: I've been collecting them for five years. Back to your question. It's a stupid question. If you can ask this, then it shows that you obviously aren't ready to buy. It's as if I were to ask "I'm looking for some kind of road vehicle, I'm buying a 4x4 with all the trimmings but is a new Nissan sports car better?" Or: "I'm looking for a girlfriend, who do you suggest?" Synthesisers are as varied as cars or (dare I say it) women. It all depends what kind of musician you are (or driver, or lover). [chuckle, I'm rather proud of that.] >Regarding patch programming...I'm taking organic >chemistry. I don't have the time to fiddle with my synth for hours. Then the 01/W is probably about right for you. You might well get bored with it in a month, but if you don't have the time to get to know it, then that's inevitable. metlay can't stand the 01/W. Actually, I think it's an OK-ish machine, with good quality ROM samples and an onboard effects processor of surprising quality. I wouldn't buy one: I'd be bored with it in a couple of weeks, apart from the fact that, as it is so obviously a quick-rewards-for-no-effort machine, it's going to age sound-wise incredibly fast. Me, I'll stick with my Waldorf MicroWave, 12-year-old technology, I've had it for three years, and I'm still learning how to program it (I had it almost saying words last night...). Nick Rothwell | cassiel@cassiel.demon.co.uk CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance | cassiel@cix.compulink.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1993 09:16:25 EST From: Michael A Squillace Subject: Re: Is the Korg 01/W better than the Yamaha SY > > >I don't see why I can't get a straight answer to my question. > > Because there isn't one. Bravo, Nick and Mike. I teach moral and political philosophy at Michigan State University and one of the points of which it is most difficult to convince my students it that good questions can be hard to formulate. Questions demand answers, in part, only if they help pointo them. More to the point at hand, I, myself, posted a request for information regarding my planned purchase of an electric piano. I listed several features I wanted it to include and got several responses, one of which supplied me with the keyboard I, in fact, went with, the Ensoniq KS-32. > Oh well. it happens. One thing I will tell you, though, is that metlay > postings of this length, regardless of style or tone, are usually rather > enlightnening and informative. I should know: I've been collecting them for I enjoy Mike's postings (and lots of other people's) as well but, I think, Mike could have been more tactful. His second posting was more congenial and, perhaps, even more informative and enlightening. > Synthesisers are as varied as cars or (dare I say it) women. It all depends > what kind of musician you are (or driver, or lover). Again, I full concur. My family constantly pesters me about having four keyboards. "Why do you need all those? You can only play one and they all do the same thing." Of course, they are wrong on both counts. They don't understand MIDI and an ARP Axxe, Roland JUNO-106, D-t0, and my new Ensoniq do very different things. I often respond that my sister, who has been taking dance longer than I've been playing, has many, many pairs of dance shoes for different purposes...and she can't even wear them all at once! rather proud of that.] > > >Regarding patch programming...I'm taking organic > >chemistry. I don't have the time to fiddle with my synth for hours. > > Then the 01/W is probably about right for you. You might well get bored > with it in a month, but if you don't have the time to get to know it, then > that's inevitable. Nice response. Actually, if one doesn't have time to get to know one's instrument, then what's the point of buying it? The last few years, I've been steadily progressing towards my degree (A PhD in philosophy), teaching, and workig with many activist groups on a variety of issues. I didn't buy a keyboard in tohse days simply because I would not have had time to play with one. My most recent purchase reflects not only a change in my financial situation but, too, more time now that I am ABD. To continue with Nick's analogy, your appeal to your work is like saying, "I'd like a girl friend but I don't want to spend much time getting to know her." Obviously, then, a relationship isn't for you at that time in your life. Anyway, enjoy your keyboard and good luck in chemistry. --> Mike squillac@student.msu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1993 14:52:22 PST From: metlay Subject: Re: Is the Korg 01/W better than the Yamaha SY >Synthesisers are as varied as cars or (dare I say it) women. It all depends >what kind of musician you are (or driver, or lover). Synthesizers are MORE varied than cars, IMO. And much LESS varied than women. This is a nice proportionality, given my relative interest in cars, synths, and women.... >metlay can't stand the 01/W. Not true. I don't HATE it; that takes too much effort. It just bores me. I suppose I could make some GREAT music on it if I had nothing else at my disposal... but that's not likely to happen any time soon, thank God. >Me, I'll stick with my Waldorf MicroWave, 12-year-old >technology, I've had it for three years, and I'm still learning how to >program it (I had it almost saying words last night...). "Feeeeeeed Meeeeeeee.... feeeEEEEEEED MEEEEEEEEE!" Still learning neat stuff about the Prophet VS after three years and the Xpander after eight, -- mike metlay * atomic city * box 81175 pgh pa 15217-0675 * metlay@netcom.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- don't give me wings and take away my sky.... (nona) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1993 17:47:32 EET From: flashner@MATH.TAU.AC.IL Subject: Is metlay better than kesler? well? what do you think? :) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1993 09:42:42 PST From: metlay Subject: Re: Is metlay better than kesler? >well? what do you think? >:) Also a null question, alas. |-> I would like to ask everyone on the List to please refrain from harassing Joe about my postings, or accusing him of a lack of objectivity. I received a private email message from him that was concurrent with the posting to EMUSIC-L asking for a general cessation of hostilities, and while the letter is not suitable for reposting, I can assure everyone that he was quite efficient at communicating to me his displeasure with the current state of affairs, and in asking me for an immediate and public apology. This raises an interesting pair of questions: to whom should I apologize, and for what? Rereading the posts and counterposts, the answer becomes clear-- the only person to whom an apology is truly owed in this mess is Dan Kessler, whose innocent, if (insert qualifiers from previous posts here), post, set off this string of invective, liberally seasoned by five-foot snowdrifts and Seasonal Affective Disorder. Therefore: Dan, I apologize for the tone I took in my posts to you. Where I am today, it is easy for me to forget that not everyone can throw themselves merrily into the breach for the sake of music, or make potentially life-altering decisions without at least SOME second thoughts. You have every right to be nervous about the big decision you've made, not only financially but in the implications of your joining the electronic music community, and it was scurrilous of me not to take your feelings into account in my responses to your questions. I would encourage you to expurgate the unpleasant parts of my two posts, and save the rest; they did contain the answers to your questions, in amongst everything else. If you're unclear on any point I addressed, feel free to contact me either here or on private email for clarification, which I will gladly supply. Also note for future reference that your many posts to SYNTH-L are in fact getting out OK. If a post doesn't bring a reply after, say, ONE repeat, there may be something about the question itself that is causing people to avoid answering-- in which case, it's time to rephrase the question, or even to ask HOW to rephrase the question. In such a case, once again I will be more than happy to help you out. In the meantime, enjoy your 01/W. The fact that I would not choose to own one does not alter the fact that it is a well-designed, well-constructed keyboard with impeccable sound quality and a fair degree of programming flexibility, that will do what you require of it for a long time to come. Thanks to those of you who defended my position, both friends AND strangers, and thanks for qualifying your defenses by excluding my choice of verbiage, as that was indeed indefensible. And thanks to those of my detractors who made an effort to address the issues at hand rather than concentrate solely upon abuse. -- mike metlay * atomic city * box 81175 pgh pa 15217-0675 * metlay@netcom.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- don't give me wings and take away my sky.... (nona) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1993 07:48:25 +0000 From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Re: Is the Korg 01/W better than the Yamaha SY >one of the points of which it is most difficult to convince my >students it that good questions can be hard to formulate. The other problem is that there are thousands of college kids who suddenly get free access to worldwide networks and mailing lists and as a result go into "TV-Mode" and turn off their brains. ("I want a synthesiser. Perhaps I should find out something about them and do some research. No, too much work. I'll just Ask The Net.") >I often respond that my sister, who has been taking >dance longer than I've been playing, has many, many pairs of dance shoes for >different purposes...and she can't even wear them all at once! Ooooh! How many? What are they like (Sorry, but I find dance hardware interesting, and I also know a dance critic who collects hats and shoes, and has over a hundred of each. She's still gaga about a pair of red painted point shoes from Maria Voortman's dance company...) >To continue with Nick's >analogy, your appeal to your work is like saying, "I'd like a girl friend but I >don't want to spend much time getting to know her." Well, there's nothing wrong with buying a keyboard for messing around on. The fallacy is that Modern Technology means you don't have to work at things and that it becomes easy to make music without effort. I have news for people who believe this: it's often the other way round. Music will always be hard because it's an Art, regardless of tools. Sure, there are good tools and bad tools, which makes a great difference, and my opinion is that right now the tools are really bad because they offer pre-packaged tupperware functionality which is actually very badly designed if you want to do anything remotely sophisticated with it. If you want a one night stand with no commitments, then the 01/W is probably it. You push its buttons, it pushes your buttons. However, I'd suggest it tends to breed a dependency culture: because it's plug-and-go and sample-based, you start longing for new patches, 3rd-party sounds, sources of PCM cards, ... and the next trendy machine on the market, as you grow to despise the one that gave you so much pleasure not so long ago. (As a possible aside, I find it quite interesting that Roland's knobs-and-sliders digital synth is pretty much a rarity these days, even though for years before that people were screaming for nice user interfaces. Roland provides, and the machine fails to sell well, top sales instead going to the Korg sample-players with the 100's of onboard presets. Proof, m'Lud, if any is needed, that the marketplace nowadays seems populated by buyers after instant gratification and that crappy user interfaces aren't really to blame.) Nick Rothwell | cassiel@cassiel.demon.co.uk CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance | cassiel@cix.compulink.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1993 07:49:46 +0000 From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Re: Is the Korg 01/W better than the Yamaha SY >Not true. I don't HATE it; that takes too much effort. It just bores me. >I suppose I could make some GREAT music on it if I had nothing else at >my disposal... but that's not likely to happen any time soon, thank God. I would probably go for an 01/W if if were a single-rack with a good MIDI control spec., good editor/librarian support, and 500 quid. Just about worth it for the static waveshaping and the onboard effects. But I have other priorities right now. (I fancy the Rossi Option of two Ensoniq DP/4's to be honest, though last night I had a *bizarre* dream about a dancer (some of you know who) and a Roland JD-800...) Nick Rothwell | cassiel@cassiel.demon.co.uk CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance | cassiel@cix.compulink.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1993 14:01:21 -0500 From: WSCOTT@ACS.WOOSTER.EDU Subject: Imelda Marcos and the Culture of Dependency This is in response to Nick Rothwll's posting which wasn't really about whether or not the 01/W is better than the SY85 (not, by the way), but was about the similarity between shoe collecting and the emerging dependency culture of "musicians" dedicated to the collection of relatively unalterable sample playback presets and to the rejection of good user-interfaces. In the States, we would call this a "Sears-suit" culture after the giant retailer's reputation for selling dowdy off-the-rack fashions to the masses. My first response is "so what's new"? I can not think of any art where the proper tools are easily available in the mass market. In fact, the mass market is,necessarily, a collection of products of real tools. Back in the days before MIDI (B.M.), if one were to talk to a salesperson in say, Computerland (a chain of retail computer stores back then), about controlling musical instruments with one of their Osbornes, the droid would immediately start looking for other customers to serve. Now the equivalent person would tell you "all about" General MIDI and Soundblasters. Without some standardization, there is no mass market. So, I don't really want anything that's out on the market. I want the development labs. And these days, I don't think the development lab is that much more expensive than a full collection of the current synths. My second response regards Imelda Marcos. She couldn't have possibly collected her shoes just to wear them. And, like Imelda enthusiastically appreciating each pair as she takes an afternoon stroll through her closet, I can imagine many reasons to appreciate, say, the 01/W as a work of art in itself, alongside a vast collection of other wonderful sample playback devices, none of which should be denigrated simply because it is not the tools that created it. My final response regards the friendly user-interface. I am suspicious of friendly user-interfaces. They usually mask a system that buffers you from "real" control and reflect, like Sears suits, what the mass market is currently demanding. This makes it even more difficult to acheive results from a device that were not those originally intended. The Macintosh is a good example of this built-in frustration system. It is easier, for example, to control an external switch with an Osborne than with a powerbook. Unfortunately, unfriendly interfaces, such as the Roland JV800 that allow real control fail, while standardized little interfaces such as the equivalent ones on the Emu sample players will thrive. Bill Scott WScott@acs.wooster.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1993 23:41:12 GMT From: Mikael Lundgren Subject: Re: Is the Korg 01/W better than the Yamaha SY Organization: Uppsala University Nick Rothwell writes: >The other problem is that there are thousands of college kids who suddenly >get free access to worldwide networks and mailing lists and as a result go >into "TV-Mode" and turn off their brains. ("I want a synthesiser. Perhaps I >should find out something about them and do some research. No, too much >work. I'll just Ask The Net.") To ask the net, is IMHO a very good way of doing research. The net is unique in the sense that you have access to a lot of people who are specialists in some field. You can always find a person who owns a Korg 01/W, Microwave, Oberheim 8-voice or whatever and who are willing to give his opinion on it. Of course the opinion may be a bit biased, but this is not a big issue when comparing to the local "Hey I want to sell you this new XXX workstation with built-in jacuzzi"-salesperson. Ponder this for a moment. Or are you too good to give advice to fellow musicians? -- () Mikael (Vick) Lundgren | University of Uppsala, Sweden O ____ () () vick@bern.docs.uu. {-|>*CSD - Computer Science Dept. o /.. \/| () () Studying CS @ ---------|>*DOCS - Dept. of Computer Systems (----) | )) () () Remember: Four bananas always add up to a plectrum. \____/\| () se Voyetra, and it does accept external sync. I don't use the SB card, so I don't know if that's the problem, but with the right interface you can use any extenal sync. Go to your "options" window to change the Clock Source from internal to SPP to SMPTE. You must stripe your tape for a sync track on your tape deck. Your manual will explain how. 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Þ wO  · ^  ë × "ò '× .6 4Ú :K @Š wO            &     D    #  N @  xO ‡  ‚ %( 7Ÿ I \“ on ɨ ñù w ºm ­ “Ó –p <  %¼ 6c HŽ \X k‰ xO æ ø ¿ ¡ ¬ ˆ Ÿ ‰ « » Š   À Ã Õ ‘ ¦ ­ ‹ ³            ! "÷T   H H Ž(·’˜FG(¸  H H Ž(  d   '    ê @  =ý/­ÝÝ ­R   @ H  -:LaserWriter Q 1+  ¸Ä wN wN Ä Ä wN ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1993 13:46:21 CST From: barnhill@KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU Subject: Imelda Vs. Castro, 1st Dictator, help!!!! What I really want to know is if Imelda is better than a Wavestation, or if Ferdinand is better than a Waldorf, with or without big dial. This is important, I'm going to spend my (life savings, college tuition, etc.) to go buy a synthesizer that will make me a star. Been away from the group for quite a while finishing a number of projects up (some real fun, some real money for art too, which is always such a pleasure). Good to see that we're still flaming the shit out of each other for things we're not sure we understand anyway. Electro-Harmonix Bad Stone vs. Castro is another thing I'm really curious about. (Obligatory Smiley) ;{0 db ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1993 19:53:53 +0000 From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Re: Is the Korg 01/W better than the Yamaha SY >To ask the net, is IMHO a very good way of doing research. Agreed. I have no problem with that. What I *do* have a problem with is questions which get asked of the entire world by people who have obviously not done any ground research themselves or even put any effort into formulating their questions. Things like "Is a Korg M1 a good board? What's a good price?" Both questions are answerable by a quick look through KEYBOARD issues plus a few 1-800 phone calls. "Has anyone tried overdriving a QuadraVerb to get thrash-metal effects from the digital distortion?" Not something you'd find in KEYBOARD, but it's an intelligent question and a suitable one to ask the net. >Ponder this for a moment. Or are you too good to give advice >to fellow musicians? No, but I'm too stressed-out to tolerate laziness. Nick Rothwell | cassiel@cassiel.demon.co.uk CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance | cassiel@cix.compulink.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1993 19:57:04 +0000 From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Re: Imelda Marcos and the Culture of Dependency >My first response is "so what's new"? I can not think of any art >where the proper tools are easily available in the mass market. I don't think the availability of the tools is the issue so much as their generality. A lot of painters get by with Windsor & Newton and off-the-shelf brushes, because the tools are general and can be used in so many ways. (At the very least, you can mix your own colours. Or, if you're really wild, you can paint with the wrong end of the brush, or your fingers.) Not so in the MIDI music market. >I can imagine many reasons to >appreciate, say, the 01/W as a work of art in itself, alongside a >vast collection of other wonderful sample playback devices, none >of which should be denigrated simply because it is not the tools >that created it. Sure, but my point was slightly different: the 01/W is not a good tool except for a small (variety-wise) set of applications, and it is not a flexible tool. It is, however, a flashy, nice-sounding one. A plastic spade is flashy-looking and pretty, but not much use. And dhe R&D that went into the 01/W did not go into a better tool. >My final response regards the friendly user-interface. I am >suspicious of friendly user-interfaces. They usually mask a >system that buffers you from "real" control and reflect, like >Sears suits, what the mass market is currently demanding. Again, it comes down to generality. Is the tool general enough, and if so, is the user interface good enough to allow access to everything the tool is capable of. >The Macintosh is a good >example of this built-in frustration system. It is easier, for >example, to control an external switch with an Osborne than with >a powerbook. Agreed, but a PowerBook running MAX is a superb tool for live MIDI work (IMHO). Different application. >Unfortunately, unfriendly interfaces, such as the >Roland JV800 that allow real control fail, while standardized >little interfaces such as the equivalent ones on the Emu sample >players will thrive. The Emu little interface will thrive because the object upon which it sits will thrive. That's all. There's a market for fluffy dice because boy racers drive Ford Capris. This isn't because a fluffy dice is an inherently useful object. Nick Rothwell | cassiel@cassiel.demon.co.uk CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance | cassiel@cix.compulink.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1993 22:33:21 PST From: mifriese@CLN.ETC.BC.CA Subject: Re: Imelda Marcos and the Culture of Dependency >I can not think of any art >where the proper tools are easily available in the mass market. IMHO IMHO IMHO... Surely you jest. I can NOT think of any art form where ADEQUATE tools are NOT easily available on the mass market - barring, perhaps, diamond cutting and similarly esoteric activities. I'm still happy with some of the music that I created with supposedly 'unacceptable' or 'inadequate' tools. And if you want real-world examples, try listening to Wendy Carlos, Pink Floyd, Genesis, Yes, ELP, and anybody else who happens to inhabit your pantheon: these people made some very fine music. Equally importantly: this stable of musicians worked, for the most part, with mass-market instruments - instruments which today would be considered woefully inadequate. As flaccid as the aphorism may be, it bares repeating: the inherent shortcomings of your organ aren't nearly as important as what you do with it. ***************************************************** Michael Friesen WorkVox: 604 785 4429 North Peace Secondary School HomeVox: 604 787 9856 Fort St. John, B.C. "Specialization is for insects." - Lazarus Long****** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1993 13:12:26 CST From: crispen Subject: Re: Imelda Marcos and the Culture of Dependency Mark Simon asks: > Let me ask this of all of you out there: when listening to electronic >music, how much of your attention is devoted to "how did they make that >sound"? A whole lot. Since I got a 4-track, I've been asking the same question about vocal recording, effects, etc. >Do the techniques used in making the music override your appreciation >of the finished product? With my own music, my failures in technique (a sound that was *almost* right, a mix that was *almost* right, a note in a 16th note run that was a *little* softer than the others, etc.) prevent me from enjoying listening to a playback that much, even though these failures are inaudible to others (I hope!). I end each stage of a project (the composition, the selection of voices, the selection of tempi, the execution, the mix) by saying, "To hell with it, that's the best I can do, let's stop dicking around with it." That process is not conducive to enjoying the final product! With other people's music, the more I know about the craft involved, the more I enjoy it. That goes not only for technique and equipment, but their solutions to musical problems, too (OK, after that modulation how's he going to get back to the key? Cool!). I enjoy listening to classical piano works that I've played a whole lot more than listening to works I haven't played. And, having pretty good pitch (used to be perfect) I reconstruct the melodic lines and harmonies as I listen (within reason -- I don't know what note the 8th first fiddle is playing in a Penderecki piece, for goodness sakes!) I'm sure there are some people who are as ignorant of music as I am of painting who really enjoy music, but I suspect that I get a bigger buzz out of it than they do, just as I suspect that I'd appreciate a painting more if I had ever done one. Might be wrong, though. +-------------------------------+--------------------------------------+ | Rev. Bob "Bob" Crispen | "IT FOUND ME!" | | crispen@foxy.boeing.com | Campus Crusade for Cthulhu | +-------------------------------+--------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1993 11:42:11 PST From: tcollins@CISCO.COM Subject: Re: Imelda Marcos and the Culture of Dependency > On the other hand, the idea of the adequacy of an instrument to create > whatever sounds strike your fancy keeps striking home to me the more I try > to twiddle with the presets on my Proteus, only to settle for something that > only approximates what I really wanted. I dunno ... I myself may be more than a > little bit inadequate on this front. But I struggle on secure in the knowledge > that true creativity lies not in the sounds, but in my ability to arrange them > in ways that are exciting, witty, stimulating, etc. Eventually I may even > come to incorporate some truly "original" sounds into what I'm doing. > > --Mark Simon > tip@cornellc.cit.cornell.edu > > "My God, what does sound have to do with music anyway?" > --Charles Ives. I agree wholeheartedly with that last statement. I too have only recently started fiddling with electronic instruments. Although I wish I had more control over that actual sounds (I have a Korg 01/W), I find that the most challenging task is (and has always been in my case) is to compose *music*; melody, harmony, rhythm, etc. I wish I could make music as well as some panhandlers that use the most beat up, piece of sh*t instruments around... tracy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1993 16:14:45 -0500 From: "Joseph D. McMahon" Subject: Re: Imelda Marcos and the Culture of Dependency I approach composition in two ways. Sometimes I hear something (in my mind's ear) that I feel I have to duplicate (or come close to) to adequately state the musical theme. One of my pieces needed vibes as the lead voice; there's no vibes preset on my VFX, so I had to program one. Other times, I can sit down with the presets and come up with a use of them that works. I do find that the patches I've created myself tend to make composing easier. Presets-only, for a timbral experimenter, is sort of like writing a piece which would really be better played by the Kronos Quartet, but all you have is the Statler Brothers. Sometimes, it'll work. Sometimes, it won't. The esthetic dimension is stretched to include not only the notes, but how they should sound. Miles Davis's version of "'Round Midnight" would have sounded completely different if he'd played it with an orchestral, wide-open trumpet sound, unmuted. With Miles's particular technique and the use of the harmon mute, you get something completely different. Other examples: if the theme music from "A Clockwork Orange" had been performed using standard patches, would it be as evocative a combination of the past and the future? Would "Timesteps" be performable on an M1, using *only* the presets? These are really unfair questions; after all, the M1 was designed to be a machine for popular music. However, its lack of programmability means that it is very hard to produce a "Timesteps" on such a beast. I do NOT say that as marvelously complex and interesting piece as that could NOT be done; simply that the tool does not lend itself to such a task. A single set of tools does not lend itself to a wide range of work: a Craftsman tool set will fulfill most people's needs, but a watchmaker or stonecutter will want tools not in the toolbox. Note: WANT, not necessarily "be totally unable to do anything at all". Sometimes the task will be doable, sometimes not. That's what the timbral experimenter does: find a sound and a context for that sound that allow the expression of the aural picture he or she has built up internally; or alternatively, he or she dreams up a new task and then builds the tools necessary to perform it. On whatever platform best supports this and their working habits. --- Joe M. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1993 07:45:54 +0000 From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Re: Imelda Marcos and the Culture of Dependency >With other people's music, the more I know about the craft involved, >the more I enjoy it. I really don't find that. When listening to some music, I interpret (musically) and analyse in parallel, I think, as two independent processes. I quite enjoy the analysis in itself, but that doesn't affect the enjoyment of the music. Doing a lot of this last night, in fact, at a cafe/bar performance by a singer/songwriter doing some very sparse, moody solo stuff with a guitar, a REX-50, and a rather nice voice. Will be talking to her this weekend with a view to future projects. She also paints, and had a lot of her pictures (featuring subjects of the songs) hung in the cafe. Yow, thought I: Multimedia! Nick Rothwell | cassiel@cassiel.demon.co.uk CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance | cassiel@cix.compulink.co.uk ------------------------------ End of the EMUSIC-L Digest ******************************