EMUSIC-L Digest Volume 52, Issue 03 This issue's topics: Faves (29 messages) Faves (long - sorry) (3 messages) FAVES,etc.. (2 messages) FAVES,etc... (2 messages) FAVES...last time. FAVES/cont.. (3 messages) Modelling of Compositional Processes (Was OOPS! Music... My own list of faves (4 messages) Old Age Spot that analog... Your EMUSIC-L Digest moderator is Joe McMahon . You may subscribe to EMUSIC-L by sending mail to listserv@american.edu with the line "SUB EMUSIC-L your name" as the text. The EMUSIC-L archive is a service of SunSite (sunsite.unc.edu) at the University of North Carolina. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 May 1993 19:48:38 EDT From: Ilia Subject: Faves Joe M. writes: > > W. Carlos - Timesteps: I would never have even considered electronic music > without this piece and the "Theme Music from 'A Clockwork Orange'". Add to this his/her soundtrack for _The Shining_ - absolutely the most important tool in creating the atmosphere of that film. (Or is Timesteps on that album?) > Zappa - "It Can't Happen Here" from "Help, I'm a Rock": a beautiful > marriage of compositional sophistication and humor. > > Metheny/Mays - "As Falls Wichita, So Falls Wichita Falls": wonderful stuff, > and one of the few 20-minute modern pieces that needs the whole 20 minutes. Joe, I am just starting to get into Metheny's music, and I haven't heard this one yet. Could you elaborate a bit? Thanks, Ilia. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 May 1993 00:04:49 PDT From: Mike Friesen Subject: Faves This is with respect to the suggestion that we publicly state our favorite groups or recordings. I'm afraid, however, that after all the discussions of academic music and twelve-tone rows this is going to sound horribly weenie-esque, but here goes anyway. My faves / influences include: Yes: it was Wakeman's work on "Roundabout" (and the album in general) that completely blew me away and turned me on to synthesis. The "Union" tour was a riot (Worcester, Mass. 1991) Genesis: they manage to push the envelope of pop even while remaining firmly ensconced within it. They also put on a hell of a show (Collins in Tokyo, 1990; Genesis in Philadelphia, 1992). Alan Parsons Project: studio/art rock with big orchestrals. Neat stuff, with darned fine arrangements. The balancing of the orchestra with the electronics must have been a nightmare: all those parts stepping on each other... Abba: (please restrain your guffaws, please) Remove the polyester and you've got some ahead-of-its-time synth work. The arrangements were remarkably good. And when you consider the equipment that they were using, the fact that it sounds passable at all is miraculous. Peter Gabriel: like the others in this list, Gabriel expands, tonally and compositionally, the envelope of pop music. "US" was timbrally neat (lots of gargantuan organ sounds), but there was more subtlety in Larry Fast's work. John Williams: not a lot of electronics (check out the "Always" soundtrack -- there are some subtle non-acoustic happenings there), but it's darned fine music. And electronic or no, that's what it's all about (IMO). Michael Friesen North Peace Secondary School Fort St. John, British Columbia, Canada It is a tale told by an idiot; full of sound and fury... ******************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 May 1993 09:20:12 PDT From: metlay Subject: Re: Faves >>Yes: it was Wakeman's work on "Roundabout" (and the album in general) that >>completely blew me away and turned me on to synthesis. The "Union" tour was >>a riot (Worcester, Mass. 1991) This was one my life's biggest left turns: I fell completely in love with "Fragile" at a very young age, and because of the echoed arpeggio at the interface between "Long Distance Runaround" and "The Fish" I became a bassist. It took me years to realize that it was the echo, not the bass, that was what had captivated me, and I stopped playing bass and went full force into synthesis and sound treatement soon after that. >>Alan Parsons Project: studio/art rock with big orchestrals. Neat stuff, >>with darned fine arrangements. The balancing of the orchestra with the >>electronics must have been a nightmare: all those parts stepping on each >>other... >Full of nice touches. I still want to try the trick which is used at the >beginning of "I, Robot" of getting a sixteenth-note figure going in the >left channel with a copy displaced by one note going in the right channel. There's a piece on my album THE MAN IN THE LOCKED ROOM which has THREE of these patterns, all offset by tiny amounts, swirling through the stereo field. Never fails to get people seasick. |-> > "Tales of >Mystery and Imagination" album repays repeated listening. All of the songs >are tied together by shared motifs, espercially those on side 1. Has anyone else heard the remastered and spruced-up version on CD? It adds a bunch of new stuff to the old tracks-- guitar and synth parts, Orson Welles speaks on a couple of tracks, and some more pronounced Projectron work. (MAN I'd love to learn more about the Projectron-- the liner notes are very intriguing!) Trivia: The assistant engineer on "The Raven" is Tom Trefethen, who put out the greatest album in the history of music some years later with Parsons' help. "Am I Stupid Or Am I Great?" Absolutely dead brill. -- mike metlay * atomic city * box 81175 pgh pa 15217-0675 * metlay@netcom.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Team Metlay's BANDWIDTH is now out on Compact Disc! Email me for details... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 May 1993 09:26:27 PDT From: metlay Subject: Re: Faves >I've always been very fond of Yes, myself, and I think Mike Friesen >shouldn't feel like a weenie for liking them. Ditto. They're a damn fine group of musicians, even today. I hated "Union" but the live show with all seven of those guys (and someone holding up Rabin's diapers) was well worth seeing, since it was obvious that they all still liked working with each other. Bruford and White were just plain fragging DANGEROUS. I wish Tony Levin were there, tho. ABWH were an even BETTER live group, and their album has some sweet stuff on it. >. 3 of the 6 titles in "Drama" were very good. Har. Which three? I have a perverse love for that album, being a HUUUUGE Buggles fan. One of MY faves of early emusic is THE AGE OF PLASTIC. > I know there's a whole genre that's been labelled "Art rock" and >many other groups assembled under that banner. You know their names. >Only Yes ever made it mean anything. Oh, I wouldn't go that far. ELP had its moments. So did Genesis. Once. -- mike metlay * atomic city * box 81175 pgh pa 15217-0675 * metlay@netcom.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Team Metlay's BANDWIDTH is now out on Compact Disc! Email me for details... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 May 1993 10:21:05 EDT From: Mark Simon Subject: Re: Faves I've always been very fond of Yes, myself, and I think Mike Friesen shouldn't feel like a weenie for liking them. It was Tales from Topographic Oceans in particular that opened my eyes to the fact that "By gosh, large scale musical structure [of the type usually only found in classical music] can be applied to rock as well. No, we don't have to accept this dichotomy between popular and serious culture." It's not too far off to say that the moment I heard Tales from Topographic Oceans was the moment my disillusionment with academic music began. It's too bad Yes got such bad press that it forced them to jettison everything that made their music so special in the first place. I regularly scan books on rock music that come across my desk here at the Cornell Library for references to Yes. Invariably these books talk about the group in terms of pretentiousness, long-windedness. And, truth to tell, even at their best, only about half of their material realy works. Sides 3 & 4 of "Tales" do ramble all over the place. The shorter selections on "Close to the Edge" never quite get going. But sides 1 & 2 of "Tales", side 1 of "Relayer" ("The Gates of Delirium" I think it's called) are masterpieces, and I don't think I'm debasing the term too badly to call them such. "Gates of Delirium" closes with one of the most beautifully and imaginatively elaborated plagal cadences I've ever heard in any music (and this is a partisan of classical music speaking). In their next albums "Going for the one" and "Tormato", compromise is already setting in rather badly. At least "Going for the one" has the final selection "Awake", a kind of last hurrah. 3 of the 6 titles in "Drama" were very good. I made the mistake of buying their "Union" album and immediately wanted to toss it out the window as soon as I heard it. Too bad. So, I say when Yes is hot they're exceptional,but when their not they require great patience. I know there's a whole genre that's been labelled "Art rock" and many other groups assembled under that banner. You know their names. Only Yes ever made it mean anything. --Mark Simon tip@cornellc.cit.cornell.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 May 1993 10:40:21 -0400 From: Joe McMahon Subject: Re: Faves >> >> Metheny/Mays - "As Falls Wichita, So Falls Wichita Falls": wonderful stuff, >> and one of the few 20-minute modern pieces that needs the whole 20 minutes. > >Joe, I am just starting to get into Metheny's music, and I haven't heard >this one yet. Could you elaborate a bit? This piece is the entirety of side 2 of the album of the same name. I haven't heard it for a while since my turntable is broken and I haven't found it on CD yet. It starts off with a sixteenth-note bass ostinato with a chordal line on piano that never quite settles into a rhythm. There is a tasteful use of sampling throughout which serves nicely to create a slowly transforming atmosphere. The piece is somewhat episodic, but the transitions are very smooth from section to section. It is an excellent example of how denial of expectations heightens interest. One is never quite sure how long a given form will be followed before it transforms into something different. Voices, sound effects, spoken numbers -- I can never hear somebody say "fifty-five" without thinking of the final section of "As Falls..." Highly recommended. --- Joe M. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 May 1993 10:40:26 -0400 From: Joe McMahon Subject: Re: Faves >Yes: it was Wakeman's work on "Roundabout" (and the album in general) that >completely blew me away and turned me on to synthesis. The "Union" tour was >a riot (Worcester, Mass. 1991) I have to speak up and say that I unabashedly love "Journey to the Center of the Earth" and "Tales of King Arthur". Both of these albums, "King Arthur" in particular, are excellent examples of orchestration and composing skill. Everything on KA is based on a single motif. >Alan Parsons Project: studio/art rock with big orchestrals. Neat stuff, >with darned fine arrangements. The balancing of the orchestra with the >electronics must have been a nightmare: all those parts stepping on each >other... Full of nice touches. I still want to try the trick which is used at the beginning of "I, Robot" of getting a sixteenth-note figure going in the left channel with a copy displaced by one note going in the right channel. Actually, I *have* used something similar. Never mind. :-) The "Tales of Mystery and Imagination" album repays repeated listening. All of the songs are tied together by shared motifs, espercially those on side 1. Thanks for reminding me of a few more faves. --- Joe M. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 May 1993 11:16:37 -0500 From: "David C. Bloom" Subject: Re: Faves > > >> > >> Metheny/Mays - "As Falls Wichita, So Falls Wichita Falls": wonderful stuff, > >> and one of the few 20-minute modern pieces that needs the whole 20 minutes. > > > >Joe, I am just starting to get into Metheny's music, and I haven't heard > >this one yet. Could you elaborate a bit? > > This piece is the entirety of side 2 of the album of the same name. I > haven't heard it for a while since my turntable is broken and I haven't > found it on CD yet. It starts off with a sixteenth-note bass ostinato with > a chordal line on piano that never quite settles into a rhythm. There is a > tasteful use of sampling throughout which serves nicely to create a slowly > transforming atmosphere. The piece is somewhat episodic, but the > transitions are very smooth from section to section. It is an excellent > example of how denial of expectations heightens interest. One is never > quite sure how long a given form will be followed before it transforms into > something different. Voices, sound effects, spoken numbers -- I can never > hear somebody say "fifty-five" without thinking of the final section of "As > Falls..." Highly recommended. > A Metheny-head once told me that the spoken numbers are accidental studio out-takes ["wilburys"] of Pat calling out his synth patches so the engineer could match the EQ for each one. I guess that makes it art. __deedot <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> <> david c. bloom <> <> <> open networks engineering, inc. <> "The first false assumption <> <> 777 e. eisenhower pkwy, ste 650 <> that underlies the scheduling <> <> ann arbor, michigan 48108 <> of systems programming <> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> is that all will go well." <> <> net dcb@one.com <> \ \ <> __Frederick P. Brooks Jr. <> <> vox 313.996.9900 <> 0-0 <> The Mythical Man-Month <> <> fax 313.996.9908 <> . <> <> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 May 1993 12:39:44 EDT From: Ilia Subject: Re: Faves Mark writes: > Sides 3 & 4 of "Tales" do ramble all over the place. The shorter selections > on "Close to the Edge" never quite get going. But sides 1 & 2 of "Tales", > side 1 of "Relayer" ("The Gates of Delirium" I think it's called) are > masterpieces, and I don't think I'm debasing the term to badly to call > them such. Well, I think there are two sides of 'good' Yes - they are great in creating cosmic compositions of grandiose scale, but they can also be very impressive in short pieces where the density of musical ideas compensates for the length. There are a couple of little gems on _Time and a Word_ - a somewhat underrated album, IMO. Hmmm, you didn't like _Close to the Edge_? I thought the guitar work on "Siberian Khatru" was swell, especially on the concert version. Of course, Yes composed quite a bit during their creative years, so, naturally, we have a choice for our preferences. > I know there's a whole genre that's been labelled "Art rock" and > many other groups assembled under that banner. You know their names. > Only Yes ever made it mean anything. > Why so radical? What about Gentle Giant or Van Der Graaf Generator? Ilia. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 May 1993 13:04:45 -0400 From: cs461139 Subject: Re: Faves Ilia writes: > > Mark writes: > > > I know there's a whole genre that's been labelled "Art rock" and > > many other groups assembled under that banner. You know their names. > > Only Yes ever made it mean anything. > > > Why so radical? What about Gentle Giant or Van Der Graaf > Generator? > > Ilia. > I never thought anything by Yes (1970-1979) had anything to do with rock or art rock for that matter, except maybe the cynical intro to Going For The One. Adding polyrythmic drums to symphonic music does not make it into r-n-r. Gentle Giant, on the other hand, IMHO is (was) a real rock band, very expressionist in it's approach to music and/or instruments. So was Genesis. I don't really see any parallel between those bands and Yes. So there's no point in comparing them. In my opinion, of course, goddamit. I still think that 'The Gates of Delirium' is one of the finest pieces of electronic music I ever heard, although I can't understand a word they're mumbling. :-) My other choices for the e-music Hall of Fame albums would be the first Pink Floyd album (Piper at the Gates of Dawn), FZ 'Hot Rats', and Genesis 'Foxtrot'. Zak. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 May 1993 13:06:22 EDT From: Brian Good Subject: Re: Faves > > > heard it for a while since my turntable is broken and I > > haven't found it on CD yet. > > Sure it is available on CD. You should also have a look at albums > like "Offramp", "Watercolours" (older one, guess it's from 1977) > or the "untitled" Pat Metheny Group album. Also "First Circle", > although this is a little more commercial. Its "Forward March" is > nice, where everybody plays an instruments they're not familiar with. > I've seen them live, imagine Lyle Mays playing trumpet. Sounds like > a bunch of kids grabbing any instrument for the first time. Potential listeners should be aware that Metheny has at least two distinctive musical personnas. In his commercial personna, he puts out things like "Letter From Home"--nice enough, I guess, but the writing is pretty bland, to my ears. Raises too many expectations and then meets them exactly, I guess. :-) He also does things like "Song X" or "80/81" that are more hard-edged jazz; there are places where he basically turns into a fretted Ornette Coleman. Also, I think he appears on a Steve Reich album of recent issue, playing a piece written for him. > > I can never hear somebody say "fifty-five" without thinking of > > the final section of "Falls..." Highly recommended. > > Yeah, that's true. That happens to me all the time, these spoken > numbers appear so out of the blue, you can never forget it. ...and didn't this resurface on some commercial a year or two ago? brian good ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 May 1993 13:13:47 EDT From: Simon Weatherill Subject: Re: Faves About Metheny: > Also, I think he appears on a Steve Reich album of recent issue, playing > a piece written for him. Electric Counterpoint is an excellent piece (as is Different Trains - same album). It's 7 takes of electric guitar and 2 takes of electric bass with a live track of guitar on top. Some great rhythms! Speaking of Reich, I just heard another piece of his. Something about wooden instruments. Another excellent selection of rhythms. Simon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 May 1993 13:19:51 -0400 From: Joe McMahon Subject: Re: Faves > >Also, I think he [Metheny} appears on a Steve Reich album of recent issue, >playing a piece written for him. > "Electronic Counterpoint", on the "Different Trains" album. Both very interesting pieces. >...and didn't this resurface on some commercial a year or two ago? Sure did. "Fahrenheit" cologne, I think. The very last "fifty-five" section. --- Joe M. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 May 1993 13:42:54 EDT From: wbf@ALUXPO.ATT.COM Subject: Re: Faves from a Mike Metlay post: >> "Tales of >>Mystery and Imagination" album repays repeated listening. All of the songs >>are tied together by shared motifs, espercially those on side 1. > >Has anyone else heard the remastered and spruced-up version on CD? Yes, I have this. There are few artists where I must own their entire catalog (Beatles, Klaatu, Alan Parsons Project, Steely Dan, Flim and the BBs...). APP and SD I completed in LP and then had to do it again with CD! I got smart and waited for the Beatles' catalog on CD instead of filling in the early gaps in LP. I have a nice CD of George Martin's mix of the Let It Be tapes. And a 5" 33 rpm disk of George Harrison's demo of While My Guitar Gently Weeps. Mike again: >This was one my life's biggest left turns: I fell completely in love with >"Fragile" at a very young age, and because of the echoed arpeggio at the >interface between "Long Distance Runaround" and "The Fish" I became a >bassist. It took me years to realize that it was the echo, not the bass, >that was what had captivated me, and I stopped playing bass and went >full force into synthesis and sound treatement soon after that. It's funny how one person's left turn is another's straight ahead path. Or, in my case, one of several parallel paths. I'm playing bass in a band whose charter is progressive rock and progressive jazz. Songs we're attempting and/or targeting come from Zappa, Genesis, Yes, Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin (by way of an arrangement by the Dixie Dregs!), Billy Cobham, Chic Corea, Alan Parsons, Moody Blues, Jean Luc Ponty, Peter Gabriel, Steve Hackett, ... Bill Fox ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 May 1993 13:45:13 EDT From: The Radio Gnome Subject: Re: Faves Hi, My faves vary across the spectrum of academic (David Borden, Carlos, Buchla, Celona, etc), industrial (Zoviet France, Nigel Ayers), spacey ( TD Klaus Schulze), newage (Kitaro, Suzanne Cianni) and avante garde (Jacques Diennet, TONTO, etc). Theres a huge amount to pick and choose from. I've been lucky enough to have gotten a seven year dose of the eclectic radio program 'Diaspar' on WXPN. They played just about anything that other stations wouldn't touch. They still run their space music program 'Starsend'. I've also gotten great exposure from other cancelled programs like 'Directions in Music' and 'Brave New Waves'. I really can't list my top ten or even my top twenty as my collection is approaching 1000 items now. I first got addicted to the sound of the mellotron back in the late 60s with 'Days of Future Passed'. I *still* like Parsons 'I Robot', its a classic. Andy Wing ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 May 1993 13:49:05 -0400 From: Patrick Robinson Subject: Re: Faves > >> Metheny/Mays - "As Falls Wichita, So Falls Wichita Falls": wonderful > >> stuff, > >> and one of the few 20-minute modern pieces that needs the whole 20 > >> minutes. > > > >Joe, I am just starting to get into Metheny's music, and I haven't heard > >this one yet. Could you elaborate a bit? > > This piece is the entirety of side 2 of the album of the same name. I > haven't heard it for a while since my turntable is broken and I haven't > found it on CD yet. Side 1. :-) I haven't seen it for a while on CD, but it was one of the first CD's I bought, after I bought my first CD player. Way back... > It starts off with a sixteenth-note bass ostinato with > a chordal line on piano that never quite settles into a rhythm. I wouldn't say "never settles into a rhythm"... it's just that there are unexpected diversions, here and there. > There is a > tasteful use of sampling throughout which serves nicely to create a slowly > transforming atmosphere. The piece is somewhat episodic, but the > transitions are very smooth from section to section. It is an excellent > example of how denial of expectations heightens interest. One is never > quite sure how long a given form will be followed before it transforms into > something different. Voices, sound effects, spoken numbers -- I can never > hear somebody say "fifty-five" without thinking of the final section of "As > Falls..." Highly recommended. 100% agreement. I understand "55 42 38 3" are (were) the "seconds" part of the amount of time into the song.... i.e. he was reading the clock counter off the deck. Supposedly, you can subtract 5 from these, and the result will match the number of seconds (mod 60) into the tune on your CD player. I can't play a sitar-like sound without thinking of "As Falls...", either. "three" -Patrick pgr@ramandu.ext.vt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 May 1993 13:52:05 EDT From: Ilia Subject: Re: Faves Zak writes: > > I never thought anything by Yes (1970-1979) had anything to do with rock or > art rock for that matter, except maybe the cynical intro to Going For The One. > Adding polyrythmic drums to symphonic music does not make it into r-n-r. Well, I can sense that labeling is raising its ugly head, so I will abstain from arguing with you. . . > Gentle Giant, on the other hand, IMHO is (was) a real rock band, very > expressionist in it's approach to music and/or instruments. So was Genesis. > I don't really see any parallel between those bands and Yes. So there's no > point in comparing them. In my opinion, of course, goddamit. I fooled you, didn't I? Here we go: there are many similarities in the *form* of music used by Yes and Gentle Giant. For example, they both belong to a family of those rare bands (along with Beach Boys, King Crimson of _Great Deceiver_ period and a few others) that made heavy use of counterpoint, although admittedly GG surpasses Yes in that quality. They both liked to make references to classical musical forms. They traded licks (compare the guitar theme on "Heart of the Sunrise" and power lines in one of the songs on _Three Friends_). Of course, they are very different in their approach of composition, their way of expression, etc. So we can talk. > My other choices for the e-music Hall of Fame albums would be the first > Pink Floyd album (Piper at the Gates of Dawn), FZ 'Hot Rats', and Genesis > 'Foxtrot'. Nah, all of them, with a possible exception of _Hot Rats_, are musical expansions of one person's vision (Barrett-Zappa-Gabriel). Nothing wrong with that, but as *bands* Genesis and Pink Floyd reached their peaks later on. No matter how many people preach to me that _Piper_ is the best PF album, I do find it rather raw both music-wise and Barrett-wise. Ilia. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 May 1993 14:03:19 -0400 From: Patrick Robinson Subject: Re: Faves > About Metheny: > > Also, I think he appears on a Steve Reich album of recent issue, playing > > a piece written for him. > > Electric Counterpoint is an excellent piece (as is Different Trains - > same album). It's 7 takes of electric guitar and 2 takes of electric > bass with a live track of guitar on top. Some great rhythms! You know... I bought this album, because I saw it had the Methney piece (I'd never, to my knowledge, heard any Reich). Maybe I just haven't "progressed" to the point where I "appreciate" this kind of stuff (I still can't get around Song X, try though I may...). I mean, I can certainly appreciate the interesting things Reich does in "Different Trains" ... and Metheny's "Electric Counterpoint", too.... but I just *really* don't *enjoy* listening to these. They just grate on my nerves. "From Chicago, to New York!" However, I sometimes think maybe I just haven't Arrived(tm), yet. Has anyone else heard Metheny/Haden/Higgins _Rejoicing_? There's a tune on that album titled, "The Calling", which, when I first bought it (when it was first released), sounded like "noise" to me (I thought, "Great... I've wasted all this money on this album", thinking I was getting another Metheny Group album), but now, it strikes me as intensely beautiful, and haunting. Chilling, even. I love it... I'm going to have to dig it out and listen to it now, before I'll be able to get anything done. -Patrick pgr@ramandu.ext.vt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 May 1993 14:06:43 -0400 From: Patrick Robinson Subject: Re: Faves > ...Also "First Circle", > although this is a little more commercial. Its "Forward March" is > nice, where everybody plays an instruments they're not familiar with. > I've seen them live, imagine Lyle Mays playing trumpet. Sounds like > a bunch of kids grabbing any instrument for the first time. Just like a Jr. High band concert. :-) And it's really great fun, live. They have a blast with it. Of course, Metheny's classic synclavier-guitar work over the rest of the din is the glue that sticks that little gem all together. -Patrick pgr@ramandu.ext.vt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 May 1993 14:24:38 -0400 From: Joe McMahon Subject: Re: Faves >However, I sometimes think maybe I just haven't Arrived(tm), yet. [good description of abstract piece] "Arrival" can sometimes be a factor of time, place, and attitude. I had heard some stuff by Anthony Braxton (did I get the name right? plays contrabass sax?) for "big band". First time it seemed like garbage. Second time, a few weeks later, I heard the big-band cliches and references that he was so adroitly parodying and paying homage to, and I liked it much better. Still, not something you put on in the background when you have friends over, unless they eat mescaline for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. :-) And there is at least one serial composition I really like - Babbitt's "Composition for Synthesizer", played on the old Bell Labs paper-tape-programmed synth. I can still remember sections of it - unusual for me for a serially-composed piece. The brilliant choices of timbre have a lot to do with that, I think. Not another "easy-listening" piece, either, especially on the LP I have that now sounds as if the mixdown was done in a short-order kitchen (sputterfuzzcrackletick...). --- Joe M. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 May 1993 16:19:38 -0400 From: cs461139 Subject: Re: Faves Ilia was nice enough to write: > Zak writes: > > My other choices for the e-music Hall of Fame albums would be the first > > Pink Floyd album (Piper at the Gates of Dawn), FZ 'Hot Rats', and Genesis > > 'Foxtrot'. > > Nah, all of them, with a possible exception of _Hot Rats_, are > musical expansions of one person's vision (Barrett-Zappa-Gabriel). > Nothing wrong with that, but as *bands* Genesis and Pink Floyd reached > their peaks later on. No matter how many people preach to me that > _Piper_ is the best PF album, I do find it rather raw both > music-wise and Barrett-wise. > > Ilia. Well, perhaps we have different measuring criteria. For me the most important side of recording is capturing the creative energy, not getting the notes down. 'Piper' is the most *creative* PF album, it's 'bursting' with creativity, and I don't think it's too raw for a debut album. I don't look at the results of the recording, I look at the amount of power, creativity and wisdom that went into the recording. That's probably why real 'group' albums never excite me much - everything is based on a compromise between the members of the band. The only real 'group' PF albums I can think of (DSOTM and Ummagumma) are very messy, confused and uneven. I never really enjoyed them much, no matter how ground-breaking they were sound-wise. 'Selling England..' by Genesis is a beautiful album. But I can't tell who came up with what, who plays what, who thinks what, who feels what, who means what. It's very impersonal for me. It's more 'background music', than the 'consience of the generation'. IMHO, as always. Damn. Albums are not really the main result of rock musicians' work. They're very temporary, I'd say. But they show us what a band *can* do - they give us a snapshot of the band's capabilities. We should not treat them as we do classical symphonies or whatever. I don't think any progressive albums from the seventies will outlive this century. But the influence, the aura if you like, the global wisdom, etc. will. Enjoy, Zak. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 May 1993 18:08:31 CET From: Andi Bitterer Subject: Re: Faves > heard it for a while since my turntable is broken and I > haven't found it on CD yet. Sure it is available on CD. You should also have a look at albums like "Offramp", "Watercolours" (older one, guess it's from 1977) or the "untitled" Pat Metheny Group album. Also "First Circle", although this is a little more commercial. Its "Forward March" is nice, where everybody plays an instruments they're not familiar with. I've seen them live, imagine Lyle Mays playing trumpet. Sounds like a bunch of kids grabbing any instrument for the first time. > tasteful use of sampling throughout which serves nicely to create Sampling? Are you sure? I believe they just put some pieces of recorded tape in the mix. (Yor refer to the children playing in the school yard, right?) > I can never hear somebody say "fifty-five" without thinking of > the final section of "Falls..." Highly recommended. Yeah, that's true. That happens to me all the time, these spoken numbers appear so out of the blue, you can never forget it. Andi (55 42 38 3) Bitterer ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 May 1993 20:12:27 CET From: Andi Bitterer Subject: Re: Faves > anyone else heard Metheny/Haden/Higgins _Rejoicing_? There's a tune on > that album titled, "The Calling", which, when I first bought it (when it > was first released), sounded like "noise" to me (I thought, "Great... > I've wasted all this money on this album",thinking I was getting another > Metheny Group album), but now, it strikes me as intensely beautiful, and > haunting. Chilling, even. I love it... I'm going to have to dig it out > and listen to it now, before I'll be able to get anything done. I think this is a very typical Metheny listener's behaviour (like myself). The first time you listen to a new album, you don't "understand" a thing. (Like the title track of Offramp.) My wife always closes the door, she says it sounds like being played by a random generator. True, it is not that straight forward, but now (after listening fifty-five times I love it. (Too bad, I don't have a Diskman here :-) Andi @ vnet.ibm.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 09:45:00 MET From: Andrea TONI Subject: Re: Faves > > I know there's a whole genre that's been labelled "Art rock" and > >many other groups assembled under that banner. You know their names. > >Only Yes ever made it mean anything. > > Oh, I wouldn't go that far. ELP had its moments. So did Genesis. Once. Hey .. wait a moment .. how could you forget .. Gentle Giant, VDGG , and Amon Dull II .. .!!!! Ciao, ------------------------------------------------ENV---ENV---ENV---------------- Andrea TONI (andrea@sihp03.si.estec.esa.nl) | | | Planetary and Space VCO-->VCF-->VCA--> DUCATI 900SS Science Division (SI) | | | ------------------------------------------------LFO---LFO---LFO---------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 12:55:48 EDT From: wbf@ALUXPO.ATT.COM Subject: Re: Faves In response to Chris Gray's faves post about Berio's Visage, Mike Metlay had the following to say, in part: > Is that the one where she spends fifteen minutes sounding like she's having > an orgasm at the hands of several underage boys while being drowned in a > bathtub? Repeating the word "Parole'" over and over and over and over and? For a second, I thought he was describing a Yoko Ono schtick. (Hmmm...) Seriously, I'd like to mention side two of the Yellow Submarine soundtrack album. George Martin really hit the mark for me with that one. I think I was 14 when I got that record. Years later, I finally found George Harrison's Wonder Wall Music. It reminded me of my own sophomoric learning experiments on a modular Moog - that is, I wasn't impressed. Bill Fox ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 13:18:13 EDT From: "Sean F. Jepson" Subject: Re: Faves >Seriously, I'd like to mention side two of the Yellow Submarine >soundtrack album. George Martin really hit the mark for me with that >one. I think I was 14 when I got that record. Years later, I finally >Bill Fox Hell, I was not even born then. :-) Sean ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sean Jepson ---------------------------------------------------------- USDA, Economic Research Service ------------------------------------ SJEPSON@ERS.BITNET --------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 14:22:01 ECT From: Anthony Tersmette Subject: Re: Faves Makes me slightly older than you. I'm late thirty something. Been thinking about the question you raised about getting tired of your music. My reply was maybe a bit too philosophical and not terribly useful practically speaking. When i get tired of a piece I'm working on, and after I've forced mys elf to endure some indeterminate amount of fatigue working on the piece (attemp t at self-discipline), I simply move onto another piece. I'm juggling about 11 pieces now. Each time I touch a piece, even if only briefly, I'm sure to leave it with at least one small improvement. I don't stay too terribly long on one p iece, unless I've happened upon a rare moment of significant inspiration. This helps keep me from being too terribly bored, and keeps all my pieces looking a little fresher. Occasionally, but very rarely, I will outright dump a work. Usu ally I'll try radicalizing it somehow and it will morph into a new and better w ork. Sometimes a piece will change so much over the course of time that it can not even be recognized in the original piece (if i had happened to have saved it). Of course, there are days when I'd like to burn everything. But I'm glad I have n't. And while I have a lot of work ahead to complete my project, I know that o ver time cumulatively and with patience I have gotten quite a lot done! Tony Tersmette ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 14:35:00 EST From: john mcintyre Subject: Re: Faves >From: metlay >This was one my life's biggest left turns: I fell completely in love with >"Fragile" at a very young age, and because of the echoed arpeggio at the >interface between "Long Distance Runaround" and "The Fish" I became a >bassist. It took me years to realize that it was the echo, not the bass, >that was what had captivated me, and I stopped playing bass and went >full force into synthesis and sound treatement soon after that. But why abandon the bass? Just do what I did, smother it with effects (although the other band members do insist on one *clean* channel of bass, usually), have a ball, and get used to the synth player getting all the credit. 8-) Does lead to some interesting moments, such as one rehearsal when the drummer suddenly threw down his sticks and pointed at me, and screamed, "I know you're making that sound, but your hands are doing the same thing whether the sound is there or not!" 8-) John McIntyre Physics - Astronomy Domine Dept Michigan State University ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 15:54:23 PDT From: metlay Subject: Re: Faves >But why abandon the bass? Just do what I did, smother it with effects >(although the other band members do insist on one *clean* channel of bass, >usually), have a ball, and get used to the synth player getting all the >credit. 8-) Does lead to some interesting moments, such as one rehearsal >when the drummer suddenly threw down his sticks and pointed at me, and >screamed, "I know you're making that sound, but your hands are doing the >same thing whether the sound is there or not!" 8-) I still pull it on and do that sort of thing occasionally. But I was never a great bassist, and I find I rarely miss it. -- mike metlay * atomic city * box 81175 pgh pa 15217-0675 * metlay@netcom.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Team Metlay's BANDWIDTH is now out on Compact Disc! Email me for details... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1993 12:08:29 CDT From: Gregory Taylor Subject: Faves (long - sorry) With all the bandwidth spent going on about how much we're all closet progressive fans and what appears to be no small amount of personal abuse at the hands of the occasional toad in a position of academic power, I guess it's no surprise that the faves list looks the way it does. Personally, I don't have a particular problem with the notion that academic music requires specialized listening skills and that it's music targeted at a community of specialists - that's exactly what happens in the e-music mailing list, to a lesser extent; one challenges the existing orthodoxy at one's peril. Of course, the ontological status that the academic computer music community may claim for itself *is* more problematic. But my take on that is that the changes underway in the technology have gone so far in terms of democratizing things that the argument itself is busy being marginalized out of existence; Heck, even the Computer Music Journal spent some editorial time during the last year trying to come to grips with what's happened to the audience for high art computer music, so they're clearly concerned about it. But the bargain is this, in my view: Whereas in the past we were forced to listen to lots of rehashes of serial work we didn't like to listen to anyway produced by places in which there were incredible concentrations of capital, we're now in the position of being buried under scads of homemade M1 intrumentals by persons who worship Larry Fast or Edgar Froese rather than Babbitry, and my impression is that - as often as not - the new crop of populists seem just as willing to trumpet the moral superiority of their work as the revanchists they supplant; the support and nurture of plurality seems to me to all the more absent, either from the faculty members who straightarmed Mr. Simon, or from those folks who have zero compunction at taking the same whacks at those meanies with the same tools. I sat through Dan May/Bill Bradbury/M. Simon's stuff at Cornell in the early 80s (I don't think Mike will remember me) *and* the Ionisation Associates shows at the Nines, and I guess I treasure them both. I'm perfectly happy to listen to anything once, and to cultivate those approaches to listening which would steer me away from becoming the kind of exclusivist bigot I've suffered at the hands of. Since it's entirely possible that I may be one of the few here who not only has the occasional bout of "liking" that awful academic stuff as well as playing stuff like, well, Rothwell and Mr. Harrington on my radio program from time to time, it would appear as though someone ought to attempt to balance out the taste list somewhat. Remember, I don't *mind* 20th century classical music particularly - it's usually the disgusting baggage of Romanticism as an aesthetic credo that I've got problems with [does this also explain my seeing a fair amount of "progressive" music as little more than the excesses of the 19th century grafted onto the excesses of the corporate rock monster of the 70s? I thought so.]. So here's the faves list that more or less defines a core of the electronic stuff on my radio program. I suppose that in some degree, this reflects my audience's tastes (since I do public broadcasting, which relies on listener support). John Foxx - Metamatic. Al Crawford and I are in complete concurrence about the extent to which this thing marries the disengaged pop that Ultravox founder Foxx had in mind to a nice set of analog timbres and tinkertoy analog drumboxes. The newly released Virgin CD includes a half-dozen extra tracks, making it a great bargain. Schaeffer/Henri - "Etude aux Objets Sonores" or "Symphonie Pour un Homme Seul" Even though it's that icky clang/honk/tweek academic stuff, I still return to musique concrete again when I want to get a sense of what it was like to live in a world where "anything" was sonically possible, and where the mere act of constituting the tiniest grain of that new world was acheived only by great effort and care. It isn't in any case beautiful, but [at least for me] engaging. In general, I guess that I think that it's important for me to think about the work I do in relation to the history of the forms and the tools and the people who came before me - not because I'm really hot on joining the club of Northern Yurrupean dead white men who gave us the deathless art on which our culture is based, but because I really think that in the course of reacting against "high culture", I had tossed out the opportunity to look back into the past and to see the face of someone who I recognize looking into the future and waving at someone and wondering if I am the person they imagined. I suppose that I hold Stockhausen's "Gesang der Junglinge" in somewhat the same category [and hope that it does get used if "Count Zero" is ever made into a film as an alternative to tinkertoy sequencer music for the soundtrack of Cyberspace. Fact TwentyTwo - The Biographic Humm. This one's on SF label Emigre, and for me marks one of the more successful transitions of a cassette culture guy to the CD realm. Consistently inventive choices of sampled material that hover nicely between noise and annoyance married to the normal anomie-laden pop song. Jon Hassel - "Fourth World" "Flash of the Spirit" or the live "The Surgeon of the Nightsky" Hassel seems to me to be radical in the best of senses - electronically mangling his raga-influenced half-valve trumpet into a cloud of smeary modal chords, and then hunting all overthe place for the rhythmic grids to hang the work on. But I think that for me, the electronics seem somehow less visible and present than that last sentence would imply. It's music which seems to me to come from a place that I couldn't imagine myself. Kraftwerk - Either the old Vertigo "Ralf und Florian" or "Autobahn" for much the same reasons as the Foxx above. Kerry Leimer and Jeff Greinke - back in the early 1980s, Kerry and Jeff and I used to trade cassettes. I think we all probably found in Eno's work of that period something we wanted to work with, and I think that we kept trading tapes for a number of years and transitions of media in part because we maybe like each other's work a trifle more than our own. In the intervening years, I went Indonesian/industrial/ambient on them and then went silent trying to figure out how to organize what to release next, Kerry quit releasing recordings and concentrated on his graphic design firm, and Jeff has continued to produce wonderful work in the ethnoambient vein. This must be natural selection at work. The Wergo series "Computer Music Currents" is occasionally a source of interesting academic computer music, and there are two of their releases that I actually like: Number 3 has some large scale process-type works by Richard Karpen, Froncois Bayle and Johannes Goebel that I use for environmental music all the time. Likewise, the number 5 volume includes a number of works I've come to like - most of which involve a fusion of process and timbre [that Jonathan Harvey "morph" piece that I think I mentioned the last time I tried to post here is on this disc]. Carl Stone - "Four Pieces" or "Mom's" Stone seems to me to be one of those folks that my academically inclined friends don't at all mind and my more popularly oriented friends find at least intellectually engaging if not downright likeable. Stone either uses "M" or the Jam Factory to make little live Minimalist pieces, and he also pursues a body of work which is composed entirely of manipulated samples of other work - Ituri rain forest chants, Akiko Yano singing Strauss, Nepali ritual music, Mahler, Mussorgsky. His results are almost always surprising [the Great Gates of Kiev resampled as an Irish reel, Yano's vocal hiccups drawn out to great and interesting length as a kind of minimalist chant], and - to my ears - a nice evening's listen. Of these two, the New Albion disc "Mom's" will be easier to find. P-Model - "P-Model" "Big Body" or "Karkador" These things are all on Japan Polydor. Great Synthpop at often breakneck tempos which abounds with squiggly little fizzy analog noises, wierd bits of English thrown about, and more than a little nod to the origins of techno in tinkertoy sequencing. They seem to appeal to the disenfranchised Kraftwerk fan in my radio audience, but I think the singer is trying to be Midge Ure. His solo albums are a real kick, too. David Borden - "The Continuing Story of Counterpoint" Dave's a problem - a Cageian who wound up farting around with Moog in the early days, founding Mother Mallard's Portable Masterpiece Company [an early analog synth live ensemble] and uniting his love of the machines with this old Jones he had for species counterpoint and turning into a Minimalist. Cuneiform has put out his opus mentioned above on 3 discs [9-12, 4-8, and 1-3. I prefer them 4-8/9-12/1-3 in that order]. I think his insistence on remaining largely electronic instead of going bigtime into "real" instrumentation has probably marginalized his work. I like it a lot, and his earlier analog LPs are pretty wonderful bits of Moogery. SPK - "Zamia Lehmanni" I know we're supposed to be more impressed with Graham Revell's more confrontatory industrial banging and screeching on his earlier works like "Leichenschrei" or "Information Overload Unit" or his music constructed of insect samples, but I find this disc his most pleasing for the listener in the long run. It marks the transition of his work from strictly "industrial" to the soundtrack work he now pursues more seriously ["Dead Calm", "Till the End of the World", etc.] It's marriage of Fairlight stuff, Machine noises, Balinese samples, and doleful Armenian-influenced singing is really quite lovely. Oh yeah - the ZL disc is on Mute/Grey Area. Toshinori Kondo - "Kon Ton" After he left the New York uptown noise scene and went back to Japan in the 70s, Kondo started working on this wierd electronic fusion of "On the Corner" era Miles with whizzy synth- based fusion [and now, some nods to Techno]. This album on Epic/Sony Japan puts him alongside producer Bill Laswell and puts out an album that the androidal Miles might even have liked. Some of his other outings with the same IMA ensemble {"Metal Fatigue" and "Brain War"} just don't have that same whirr and crack. I think that this particular work is the sort of thing that Herbie Hancock was aiming at with his "Sound System" - era stuff, only it swings much more furiously. Paul Lansky "Homebrew" This Bridge CD is for folks who tire of the big themes, the grandiose algorithms, and the long hunt to find computer music to just "like." It's a collection of 5 pieces of NeXT-generated computer music whose roots are solidly in the domain of the "real" world and have a sense of humour. Gamelans made from his sons clearing the table, night traffic tuned, cryptomandolins in the shopping mall, bedtime stories made entirely of time phrases, and something like Steve Reich's "Clapping Music" knocked through a bank of tuned filters. Technology with a human face - a smiling face. Gosh, I've not even mentioned the domed one or the YMO reunion disc, have I? Let a hundred flowers bloom, Gregory ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1993 14:35:58 -0400 From: Joe McMahon Subject: Re: Faves (long - sorry) {Greg's excellent recommendations deleted} Let me state that despite my love of progressive stuff from the 70's and Carlos/Fast, Greg has never steered me wrong. (BTW - got "The Shutov Assembly" the other day and LOVE it - nice to listen to and plenty to think about; you're absolutely right about _Gesang_, Greg, which I really wish I could get on CD; and I've forgotten my third point now.) --- Joe M. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 May 1993 15:43:11 PDT From: metlay Subject: Re: Faves (long - sorry) Amidst other commentary, Gregory Taylor states: >my view: Whereas in the past we were forced to listen to lots of rehashes >of serial work we didn't like to listen to anyway produced by places in >which there were incredible concentrations of capital, we're now in the >position of being buried under scads of homemade M1 intrumentals by persons >who worship Larry Fast or Edgar Froese rather than Babbitry, and my >impression is that - as often as not - the new crop of populists seem >just as willing to trumpet the moral superiority of their work as the >revanchists they supplant; the support and nurture of plurality seems >to me to all the more absent, either from the faculty members who >straightarmed Mr. Simon, or from those folks who have zero compunction >at taking the same whacks at those meanies with the same tools. Really? I find this very interesting, as it seems to conflict with my own experiences in the field. I have seen in the past that the more "populist" musicians, if that's a good word for them, tend to have a bit more breadth in their tastes, and are sometimes labelled as equally narrow because of their dislike for academic music. But I deal with a much more strictured gang of musicians than Greg does, since I haven't had a radio show in seven years and haven't been at a university music department in ten. I think that in this, as in other areas, the Net is a strongly selfselecting group, and I'd like to hear more about where and how this reverse prejudice has manifested itself (aside from the obvious kneejerk stuff seen here recently). >Since it's entirely possible that I may be one of the few here who not >only has the occasional bout of "liking" that awful academic stuff as >well as playing stuff like, well, Rothwell and Mr. Harrington on my >radio program from time to time, it would appear as though someone >ought to attempt to balance out the taste list somewhat. Remember, I >don't *mind* 20th century classical music particularly - it's usually >the disgusting baggage of Romanticism as an aesthetic credo that I've >got problems with [does this also explain my seeing a fair amount of >"progressive" music as little more than the excesses of the 19th century >grafted onto the excesses of the corporate rock monster of the 70s? I >thought so.]. I am a romantic at heart. It blurs my thinking. I am not proud of this, but I would be a fool to deny it. It shows in my music. I like what I play anyway, but do not insist on Romanticism in what I listen to from others. I think I would like your radio show a lot. >. I suppose that I hold Stockhausen's "Gesang der Junglinge" >in somewhat the same category [and hope that it does get used if "Count >Zero" is ever made into a film as an alternative to tinkertoy sequencer >music for the soundtrack of Cyberspace. Nah. Not political enough. "Hymnen, " though.... >Kraftwerk - Either the old Vertigo "Ralf und Florian" or "Autobahn" >for much the same reasons as the Foxx above. Some good stuff here. I wish their first (eponymous) album would be redone on CD; it's a crying shame that all that good music is almost impossible to find. >Kerry Leimer and Jeff Greinke I miss Kerry a lot. "Installation View" was on my tape deck nonstop for a long time after I got it. Palace Of Lights was a fine little label, and gave attention to some worthwhile folx; as for Jeff, his latest is just out on Linden, and is up to his usual standards. Highly recommended. >P-Model - "P-Model" "Big Body" or "Karkador" These things are all on >Japan Polydor. Great Synthpop at often breakneck tempos which abounds >with squiggly little fizzy analog noises, wierd bits of English thrown >about, and more than a little nod to the origins of techno in tinkertoy >sequencing. They seem to appeal to the disenfranchised Kraftwerk fan in >my radio audience, but I think the singer is trying to be Midge Ure. His >solo albums are a real kick, too. Intriguing in a revolting sort of way. Where does one find these on CD? >SPK - "Zamia Lehmanni" I know we're supposed to be more impressed with >Graham Revell's more confrontatory industrial banging and screeching >on his earlier works like "Leichenschrei" or "Information Overload Unit" >or his music constructed of insect samples, but I find this disc his >most pleasing for the listener in the long run. It marks the transition >of his work from strictly "industrial" to the soundtrack work he now >pursues more seriously ["Dead Calm", "Till the End of the World", etc.] >It's marriage of Fairlight stuff, Machine noises, Balinese samples, and >doleful Armenian-influenced singing is really quite lovely. Oh yeah - >the ZL disc is on Mute/Grey Area. I'd wondered what happened to them after 1986, when their old fans deserted them in droves. I liked "Machine Age Voodoo" (?) and was labeled a heretic. >Gosh, I've not even mentioned the domed one or the YMO reunion disc, have >I? No. For shame. WHICH "domed one"? I can think of at least three. >Let a hundred flowers bloom, >Gregory Still whizzing in the garden, -- mike metlay * atomic city * box 81175 pgh pa 15217-0675 * metlay@netcom.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Team Metlay's BANDWIDTH is now out on Compact Disc! Email me for details... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1993 02:40:28 -0400 From: Chris De Chiara Subject: FAVES,etc.. Hi, I've read alot of stuff here from people ragging on academia and academic music, 12 tone music, etc..I recently completed a master's degree in music composition and have to agree that the majority of academics are useless, talentless jackasses. HOWEVER, I think that the so called "real world" is equally if not more, infected with useless talentless jackasses masquerading as musicians. I also think that the business world certainly is primarily made up of useless talentless jackasses. So I expect to burned at the stake by many of you for what follows but what the hell ! First I LIKE 12 TONE MUSIC ! I really do ,some of my faves include: everything by Luigi Dallapiccola, especially Il Prigionero . all of Berg's works especially Lulu and Wozzeck. I love Berio and Nono Faves include Berio's Differences, Sequenza III, Chemins II, Sinfonia, Eindrucke, A Ronne, and Points on the curve to find. As for Luigi Nono, whom I feel is one of the most neglected and most significant composers of this century. This man was truly a genius. I'd include Como una ola de fuerza y luz, ... sofferete onde serenade .... , A Carlo Scarpa, A Pierre, and Guai ai Gelidi Mostri. Other composers I really enjoy would have to include John Cage, whom I consider a diety, Messiaen, Stockhausen, Nancarrow, Ives, Partch, and Xenakis. I don't want to continue listing pieces as I could really get carried away, there is so much of this music I really like. Second, There is WONDERFUL ACADEMIC MUSIC, although I don't ghettoize and classify this music this way , but many if not most of you seem to. Who cares if they teach at a University, good music is good music. Theses are in no particular order and most are "computer/electronic music" Paul Lansky : Smalltalk, Just more idle chatter, and As if. Larry Austin : Montage, LaBarabara, Beachcombers, Sinfonia Concertante: A Mozartean Episode, and Life Pulse Prelude. Morton Subotnick- Touch , Neil Rolnick- A Robert Johnson Sampler, Cort Lippe- Music for Harp and Tape, Gerg Katzer- Rondo, Gareth Loy- Blood from a Stone, Barry Truax- Riverrrun, James Tenney- Collage #1, and Phases(for Edagar Varese) Chris Chafe- Quadro, Dexter Morrill - Quartet, Chafe/Morrill- Improvisation Richard Teitelbaum- Golem 1, Jon Appleton -Brush Canyon, Stereopticon,and Homenajae a Milanes Larry Polansky- Psaltery, David Rosenboom- Systems of Judgement, David Evan Jones- Scritto, Trevor Wishart- Vox 5, Charles Dodge- Speech Songs, and Any Resemblence is Purely Coincedental, Sal Martirano- Sampler, James Dashow- Archemides, Mnemonics, Vladimir Ussachevsky- Computer Piece No.1, and Two Sketches for a Computer Piece. Mario Davidovsky- all of the Synchronisms. Looking at this list, I see so many people I haven't included, that I must say this is a somewhat off the cuff list, the more I think about the music I like the more I want to include, Ashly, Winsor, Mumma, Maderna, Donatoni, Curran... As for Lutoslawski, I like his String Quartet, especially on "shuffle play" when its randomly interrupted by Cage, Penderecki, and Mayuzumi. Closing heresies, I felt that most of the asthetics of the arguments in regards to 12 tone music, experimental music, academic music, etc smacked of 19th century romantic attitiudes, sad , especially since we are approaching the 21st. Asking the brillant designers at CCRMA, or IRCAM, or STEIM, etc. to hold back and design things that are readily accessable to the general public is a bit like asking an auto mechanic to rebuild your engine with only a screwdriver, or a heart surgeon to perform a triple bypass with a pocket knife and a spool of thread. Suggesting that composers should pander to "public tastes", whatever that is, seems a bit oppressive and smacks of censorship. If you're so concerned about populism than write tonal music, which by the way is the rage in academia and has been for at least 20 years. Or write music like Prince or Madonna, or Michaeal Jackson, do pop music, there is nothing wrong with that. It seems that the majority of folks on this list are into that anyway, all the faves I've read were pop. Someone mentioned computer music cd's , well I buy them and I like them. I would highly recommend the CDCM series from Centar. Excellent music!!! I'd also recommend the Cultures Electroniques from Le Chant Du Monde. Beginning to Sweat, Chris De Chiara ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1993 08:55:35 EDT From: Mark Simon Subject: Re: FAVES,etc.. Chris de Chiara, like so many other academics, just like the "brilliant designers at CCRMA IRCAM or STEIM" still can't see the difference between writing music and doing scientific research. The difference between what auto mechanics or surgeons do and what composers do is that, they perform a practical service. There's a material benefit to your day to day life when your car or your own ticker are in good working condition. You don't need to be interested in the technology that made them that way. Music, on the other hand, has no practical use. We need not apologize for that. The ability to enjoy beautiful things simply for their beauty and not for their utilitarian value is what makes us civilized. But since the results of music making have no practical value, we *have* to be able to understand and enjoy the process that went into making it. This does not mean "pandering" to the lowest common denominator. This just means expressing yourself clearly. Music is a form of communication, remember? If you can't communicate your ideas in a straightforward manner you're not doing your job. Composers have a duty, as one of our list members puts it, to "eschew obsfucation". All this "research" that our academic composers are doing has the end result of deliberately putting up barriers to comprehension. The academics like it that way. It makes them feel superior. And that's would be OK as long as they could be content to stay in their ivy towers [that's "ivy" as in "ivy league"] and let real musicians do their jobs unmolested. But no, our composition scientists want to impose their "research methods" on all composers. They want to ram this music down the unsuspecting throats of symphony audiences whether they like it or not. In my previous postings I have described my own experiences with my Lennon piece, as well as the Chicago Symphony's experience with Ralph Shapey's Concerto Fantastique. Both of these incidents seems to me to be more than a a little bit oppressive, and in my case represented out and out censorship. A typical academic bully tactic is to say things like "your arguments ... smacked of 19th century romantic attitudes". Hey, wake up! We're living in 1993 and we have these attitudes. How can they be "19th century"? If your notion of 20th century thought doesn't include us, maybe you should revise your notions. Now for the other side of the coin: What do Madonna and Milton Babbitt have in common? An absolute contempt for their audience's intelligence. Madonna says "the audience is shit, and they'll only accept crap, so that's what I'll give them". Babbitt says "the audience is shit and they'll only accept crap, so screw 'em. Who needs 'em? I've got tenure." Both attitudes are sick and have resulted in a very sick climate for making music in our day and age. What's alarming is the way the commercial music scene contin- ually debases the common denominator until the only way left to go is to debase it even further. You know, "No one ever lost money by under- estimating the public intelligence". So in order to keep making money these guys have to underestimate public intelligence even further. 20 years ago I never would have believed this [c]"Rap" and "Grunge" could have made it with anybody. The way the music biz is set up you can either take the Madonna route or the Babbitt route. Each has its own power structure dedicated to squelching all who would go a different way. What's desperately needed is an intelligent music directly stated. Where is a composer to go who wants follow this path? Where?!!! --Mark Simon tip@cornellc.cit.cornell.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1993 11:41:07 EDT From: JASON VANTOMME Subject: Re: FAVES,etc... Chris De Chiara writes: > agree that the majority of academics are useless > ,talentless, jackasses. HOWEVER, I think that the so > called "real world" is equally if not more, infected with > useless talentless jackasses masquerading as > musicians. Even though the wording is a bit harsher and unforgiving than I would have used, I would tend to agree...BUT, just because there are a lot of "jackasses masquerading as musicians", does not take away from the fact that maybe there is a big problem in academic music - we can't use this as a crutch! (i.e. "Well, your bad, so why can't we be?..") I have attended one International Computer Music Conference ('91 Montreal) and have heard the disc from another ('92 San Jose) and let me tell you there was a TON of REALLY bad music. Almost so bad that I have a hard time calling it music at all. HOWEVER, there was also A LOT of VERY GOOD music as well. It seemed to me that the successes were by those computer musicians who were musicians first, be they composer or performer. (This seems to make sense.) Chris De Chiara again: > Suggesting that composers should pander to "public > tastes", whatever that is , seems a bit oppressive and > smacks of censorship. If you're so concerned about > populism than write tonal music, which by the way is the > rage in academia and has been for at least 20 years. Yep. IMHO, this "pander[ing] to 'public tastes'" is one of the problems in contemporary music today. How? It's a problem in that there is an inherent expectation that a contemporary composer should not concern themselves with what would please an audience. THIS is the problem. However, this "problem" is being somewhat diminished since many "academic" composers (...for lack of better terms...) are realizing that they may never get there music played (EVER!) if they are continually of this attitude. This is one of the reasons that composers like Glass, Adams, Machover, etc. are frowned upon in academic circles - they get played to sellout crowds! (Incidentally, I like most of the music by these mentioned composers -- I guess I'm a heretic ;^)) Mark Simon writes: > Chris de Chiara, like so many other academics, just like > the "brilliant designers at CCRMA IRCAM or STEIM" still > can't see the difference between writing music and doing > scientific research. I think the academic computer music community is going back to the direction it was before. In the beginning ;-) you had engineers working with composers, then those engineers wanted to be composers and vv. I think we are heading back the other way again. Maybe not, but it seems that way. You don't see Julius Smith composing do you? Nor Cort Lippe doing physical modelling of instruments! I think the community is starting to "see" (or "hear") "the difference between writing music and doing scientific research." (Talk about an anti-intermedia statement!!) I know Paul Lansky posts to this list once in a while - maybe he could give an opinion on this. Mark Simon again: > And that's would be OK as long as they could be content to > stay in their ivy towers [that's "ivy" as in "ivy league"] > and let real musicians do their jobs unmolested. First of all, who are the "real musicians"? If you have found an answer, that would be news to a lot of people... Incidentally, where does your incredibly hostile attitude towards "academic" music come from? Mark Simon again: > They want to ram this music down the unsuspecting throats > of symphony audiences whether they like it or not. Fine! Look at the program BEFORE you go to the concert and if you don't like what you see ----> DON'T GO!!!!!! I'd have to say that I wouldn't go to a symphony concert and not expect to hear something that didn't make me concentrate on the work being played in order to understand it. Conversely, I wouldn't go to a Madonna concert and expect to have to think about her tunes to enjoy them!!! ...And I would go to both... =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Jason D. Vantomme Faculty of Music, McGill University Montreal, PQ CANADA email: vantomme@music.mcgill.ca =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1993 12:58:45 EDT From: Ilia Subject: Re: FAVES,etc... Jason D. Vantomme writes: > I'd have to say that I wouldn't go to a symphony concert and not > expect to hear something that didn't make me concentrate on the work > being played in order to understand it. Conversely, I wouldn't go to > a Madonna concert and expect to have to think about her tunes to > enjoy them!!! ...And I would go to both... I dunno, I seem to have a problem with this attitude. I think when we develop our musical tastes we grow up as listeners, i.e. we learn to differentiate what we hear. I don't understand how you can trigger your thinking on and off--when I hear Madonna's music, it (or most of it) annoys me tremendously. It probably wouldn't have, if I were able to turn off the region of my brain responsible for analysis; but I can't (not without significant chemical intrusion :-), and so I'm bound to suffer. Another part of this problem is the tendency of artistically inclined people to identify themselves with their favorite artists and/or works of art. Mind you, I am able to enjoy books that convey the ideas that I disagree with, or music written in a style that I generally do not admire. However, I am more inclined to enjoy the works where intellectual process behind the creation has some relevancy to my own mind set. If you can enjoy such polar things as Madonna's toonz and, say, Stravinski's music and still retain your integrity, then. . . well, then I envy you. Ilia. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 May 1993 14:32:39 EDT From: JASON VANTOMME Subject: Re: FAVES...last time. [In defense of myself...] :-) Ilia writes: > I dunno, I seem to have a problem with this attitude. I > think when we develop our musical tastes we grow up as > listeners, i.e. we learn to differentiate what we hear. I > don't understand how you can trigger your thinking on and > off--when I hear Madonna's music, it (or most of it) > annoys me tremendously. It probably wouldn't have, if I > were able to turn off the region of my brain responsible > for analysis; but I can't (not without significant > chemical intrusion :-), and so I'm bound to suffer. So professional musicians could never go to a dance club and expect to enjoy themselves...hmmm, I could find quite a few people to prove that wrong. > Another part of this problem is the tendency of > artistically inclined people to identify themselves > with their favorite artists and/or works of art. This either implies that I am not artistically inclined because I can listen to Madonna or that I am artistically inclined and identify myself with Madonna. Wrong on both counts. ;^) > However, I am more inclined to > enjoy the works where intellectual process behind the > creation has some relevancy to my own mind set. Same here. Just because I listen to Madonna or whoever doesn't mean that I don't also have an inclination towards "works where intellectual process [is] behind the creation." > If you can > enjoy such polar things as Madonna's toonz and, say, > Stravinski's music and still retain your integrity, > then. . . well, then I envy you. First of all, this has nothing to do with integrity. I don't feel that I have to justify to my old counterpoint teacher why I am listening to Madonna - I listen to it because it makes me want to dance!! Second, if you want to take about polarities, then an entire lifetime's worth of discussion could be generated on how people could possibly enjoy both medieval and contemporary music at the same time! Whew! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Jason D. Vantomme Faculty of Music, McGill University Montreal, PQ CANADA email: vantomme@music.mcgill.ca =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1993 05:05:02 -0400 From: Chris De Chiara Subject: FAVES/cont.. Hi Mark, >Chris de Chiara, like so many other academics, Well, I'm not an academic, I'm a professional musician.I've supported myself for the last 17 years as a working musician. Primarily through popular forms of music. My email address is not an academic institution. But yours is. > Music, on the other hand, has no practical use. We need not apologize >for that. The ability to enjoy beautiful things simply for their beauty >and not for their utilitarian value is what makes us civilized. But since >the results of music making have no practical value, we *have* to be able >to understand and enjoy the process that went into making it. Why do we have to understand the process that went into making a piece of music to enjoy it ? I don't need to understand the process of a composition to enjoy it. >This just means expressing yourself clearly. Music is a form of communication, >remember? While I agree music has meaning, I don't view it necessarily as a form of communication. I don't believe that music's meaning is to be found in the emotions of a listener's experience, or the idiomatic relationships between pitches, or its form, or whatever programmatic details a composer verbally claims to attach to a piece. I think the meaning of music is mostly abstract, and subjective, if it communicates any meaning , then I think that meaning is to be found in our personal perceptions of the temporal relationships that result from the succession of sounds we are hearing. > If you can't communicate your ideas in a straightforward manner > you're not doing your job. Who is employing me ? What constitutes "communicating musical ideas in a straightforward manner "? Established forms, tonality? >Composers have a duty, as one of our list members puts it, to "eschew > obsfucation". I'm not sure what that means. But, I feel no sense of duty as a composer to anyone other than myself. I do what interests me. >All this "research" that our academic composers are doing has the end result >of deliberately putting up barriers to comprehension. The academics like it >that way. It makes them feel superior. Sorry, but that's "bullshit", All the "academic composers" I know really want to connect with people. There are some I've met whom are as you describe, but I think they are the minority. The next time you use a Dx7 or an FM synthesizer, or a sampler,etc., try and remember that it is the result of some "academic's research" and that it was deliberately created to put up barriers to your comprehension and make some academic feel superior . >And that's would be OK as long as they could be content to stay in their ivy >towers [that's "ivy" as in"ivy league"] and let real musicians do their jobs >unmolested. But no, our composition scientists want to impose their "research >methods" on all composers. I've been trying to think of an instance of this but I can't seem to come up with one. >They want to ram this music down the unsuspecting throats of symphony >audiences whether they like it or not. In my previouspostings I have described >my own experiences with my Lennon piece, as well as the Chicago Symphony's >experience with Ralph Shapey's Concerto Fantastique. Both of these incidents >seems to me to be more than a little bit oppressive, and in my case >represented out and out censorship. I find your case absolutely horrifying. I felt severely penalized in my most recent academic degree. By what I consider to be the useless department bureaucrats, but their nonsense isn't much different than working in the "real music world", and having to put with its cast of fools. As for Shapey, I really like his music, I don't know what your view of his situation is. But I think the man got burned by gutless wimps. His music reminds me of Varese, which by the way the last time I heard the CSO perform Varese, the audience hated it . The blue haired crowd was really offended. Me, I loved it. > A typical academic bully tactic is to say things like "your arguments... >smacked of 19th century romantic attitudes". Hey, wake up! We're >living in 1993 and we have these attitudes. How can they be "19th >century"? If your notion of 20th century thought doesn't include us, maybe >you should revise your notions. I didn't intend that to be a bully comment. I'm not interested in bullying anyone ! As much as I'd like to comment further on this, I won't. I think I'd end up ranting and raving about the horrors of the commodity culture, capitalism, and other 19th century atrocities. > Now for the other side of the coin: What do Madonna and Milton Babbitt >have in common? An absolute contempt for their audience's intelligence. >Madonna says "the audience is shit, and they'll only accept crap, so that's >what I'll give them". Babbitt says "the audience is shit and they'll only >accept crap, so screw 'em. Who needs 'em? I've got tenure." Both attitudes >are sick and have resulted in a very sick climate for making music in our >day and age. I've heard this before, but I have know direct knowledge regarding these attitudes. I have been told by some that the Babbitt is a severe misinterpretation. As for Madonna, she's like any other business person, sell whatever you can sell, and as much as possible. That's the commodity culture at work. As for making music in this day and age, I find it very exciting, and I'm really glad that I'm alive at this time to work as a musician. >What's alarming is the way the commercial music scene contin-ually debases the >common denominator until the only way left to go is to debase it even further. >You know, "No one ever lost money by under-estimating the public >intelligence". So in order to keep making moneythese guys have to >underestimate public intelligence even further. 20 years ago I never would >have believed this [c]"Rap" and "Grunge" could have made it with anybody. This seems like the same kinds of things people said about Elvis, the Beatles, etc.... As for Rap, well, it seems to fit very nicely into your idea that music must communicate clearly. Their lyrics couldn't be any clearer. While I'm not a fan of rap, I'm not opposed to it. It's a form that seems to have come up in spite of the music business, which has only recently exploited and monopolized it. I think most of the people whom oppose it, are racists. However, I'm not suggesting that you are racist. As for "Grunge", sounds to me like Black Sabbath, Husker Du, Grand Funk, etc.. Its not like it came out of nowhere, it's just its latest face. > The way the music biz is set up you can either take the Madonna >route or the Babbitt route. Each has its own power structure dedicated >to squelching all who would go a different way. Seems that that's what your doing , with your put down of so-called academic music. Seems to me that there is more variety and less conformity there than you realize. I don't think that there is a genre or clearly acceptable method of composing in academia. You have the post serialists, minimalists, new romantics, neo-tonalists, neo....., etc... Compare 4 composers employed by Universities , Paul Lansky - Princeton, Larry Polansky- Dartmouth, George Lewis- UCSD, and Larry Austin -University of N.Texas, they all work with computers, but that's where the similarities end, that is the only thing they have in common, as their individual processes and points of view are all very different, and quite unique. >What's desperately needed is an intelligent music directly stated. >If that's what you think needs to be done than do it !!!!!!! >Where is a composer to go who wants follow this path? Where?!!! How about the University of Mark Simon ? JUST KIDDING < silly grin > -- Chris De Chiara Chris4516@delphi.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1993 10:13:36 EDT From: Mark Simon Subject: Re: FAVES/cont.. Well, I'm afraid I've just about shot my wad as far as the academic business is concerned. Once again, I offer the old Brahms apology "If there's anybody I haven't offended, I apologize". Joe wants to know what I've written that I thought was successful. Good question. I keep asking that myself. I'm one of these negative curmudgeons who hates everything until he can be convinced to like it. Sometimes the line between critical discernment and self-critical paralysis can be very thin. OK, so I'm warped. Just remember I attack my own work with the same vigor as I do against the academics. I'm a prime candidate for "Ruggles syndrome" I'm afraid. Carl Ruggles was so self critical that his entire output fits easily onto a 2 LP set (including alternate versions of the same piece) even though he lived past the age of 90. But jeez, if only I could write something as tremendous as "Sun Treader". I know, I'm supposed to be against atonality, but I can't help loving this piece. You can put Sun Treader high on my list of faves. There are 2 composers I worship: Haydn and Stravinsky. Both of them epitomize what I have come to admire the most in music: Clarity, consiceness, sense of form, sense of humor, interesting personality. Is there anyone out there who *wasn't* inspired to compose after listening to the Rite of Spring? My personal Stravinsky favorite is Symphony of Psalms. I'm very big on music with large-scale structure. The Sibelius symphonies are great for this, especially no. 7. Like everyone else in my age group I grew up listening to the Beatles. I'm attracted to certain aspects of the rock style, but it lacks large-scale structure (here I am being critical again). So I decided that I would like to adopt what I liked of rock (mainly rhythmic) with what I liked of Haydn and Stravinsky (structure). I've been trying to perfect the combination ever since. That Lennon piece, I don't know. It had its moments, but I'd just like to go back and rewrite the thing, maybe tear out half of it etc. Probably better just to try again from scratch. Well I can't stay all day on the list. Have to go. Will continue rambling incoherently next week. --Mark G. Simon tip@cornellc.cit.cornell.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 May 1993 00:24:25 -0400 From: Chris De Chiara Subject: FAVES/cont.. Hi Mark, >>Since my flames singed you in particular I am writing an apology for that directly to you. No apology necessary ! I enjoyed our discussion/debate or whatever you want to call it. That's what I think this forum is for. >> Now please come off this nonsense about calling me racist because I can't stand rap music. Please read that part again, because I thought I made it clear that I was not calling you a racist. >>Otherwise, very sorry for the unpleasantness. Don't apologize, while we disagree, I didn't think you were being disagreeable, or unpleasant. Chris De Chiara Chris4516@delphi.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 May 1993 09:44:28 -0400 From: Joe McMahon Subject: Re: Modelling of Compositional Processes (Was OOPS! Music... >3. PROPOSAL: >How about if we all post a few "favorite" pieces so that the others >can _really_ see where we are comming form. And with that post >be sure to include specific why you think the piece works or gets >you off or whatever. I like the idea -- perhaps it will help to show each other where we're coming from in terms of taste. There are a number of things which I would place on my list of "great musical experiences" - things I can listen to over and over again and still marvel at the quality of the music. W. Carlos - Timesteps: I would never have even considered electronic music without this piece and the "Theme Music from 'A Clockwork Orange'". Zappa - "It Can't Happen Here" from "Help, I'm a Rock": a beautiful marriage of compositional sophistication and humor. Metheny/Mays - "As Falls Wichita, So Falls Wichita Falls": wonderful stuff, and one of the few 20-minute modern pieces that needs the whole 20 minutes. My personal compositional preferences are for short pieces, in which a musical idea is succinctly stated. I am always attempting to improve my craft through study of music theory (to help get the writing tools at an instinctive level) and of other people's music, looking for the good and noting the bad so I can emphasize one and discard the other. --- Joe M. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 May 1993 09:40:08 PDT From: metlay Subject: My own list of faves I got a zillion of 'em. Off the top of my head: Sinfonia to Cantata 29 from SOB by WCarlos. Of course. The first synth piece I ever heard. Warped me for life. Rubycon by Tangerine Dream. First TD I ever heard. Equinoxe by JMJarre. The album that got me into playing Emusic. The Age Of Plastic by Buggles. A classic. Period. Motivation Radio by Steve Hillage. My intro to TONTO. Speech Songs by Charles Dodge. At least the guy has a sense of humor. Fragile by Yes. Fueled a seven-year detour into the bass guitar. The Green Album by Eddie Jobson and Zinc. Almost got me married to a violinist. I'm tempted to list a bunch of anti-faves, records that influenced me by example of how NOT to work, but so many of them are academic I'd be accused of starting another flame war. -- mike metlay * atomic city * box 81175 pgh pa 15217-0675 * metlay@netcom.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Team Metlay's BANDWIDTH is now out on Compact Disc! Email me for details... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 09:29:47 PDT From: metlay Subject: Re: My own list of faves >I'm surprised no one has mentioned Berio's Visage in this context - it was >certainly instrumental (and vocal) in turning _me_ on to electronic music >(and Cathy Berberian). Or is that too academic? (Personally I have difficulty >in describing _any_ of Berio's music as "academic"). Is that the one where she spends fifteen minutes sounding like she's having an orgasm at the hands of several underage boys while being drowned in a bathtub? Repeating the word "Parole'" over and over and over and over and? Or is that a different piece? I have a hard time keeping my Berio straight. -- mike metlay * atomic city * box 81175 pgh pa 15217-0675 * metlay@netcom.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Team Metlay's BANDWIDTH is now out on Compact Disc! Email me for details... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 12:21:55 -0400 From: Chris Gray Subject: Re: My own list of faves I'm surprised no one has mentioned Berio's Visage in this context - it was certainly instrumental (and vocal) in turning _me_ on to electronic music (and Cathy Berberian). Or is that too academic? (Personally I have difficulty in describing _any_ of Berio's music as "academic"). Chris __________________________________________________________________________ Chris Gray cgra@se.alcbel.be Compu$erve: 100065.2102 Ignore my broken mailer - the addresses above are the only truth __________________________________________________________________________ A closed mouth catches no feet ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1993 02:35:57 -0400 From: Chris Gray Subject: Re: My own list of faves |>I'm surprised no one has mentioned Berio's Visage in this context - it was |>certainly instrumental (and vocal) in turning _me_ on to electronic music |>(and Cathy Berberian). Or is that too academic? (Personally I have difficulty |>in describing _any_ of Berio's music as "academic"). |Is that the one where she spends fifteen minutes sounding like she's having |an orgasm at the hands of several underage boys while being drowned in a |bathtub? Repeating the word "Parole'" over and over and over and over and? |Or is that a different piece? I have a hard time keeping my Berio straight. -- | mike metlay * atomic city * box 81175 pgh pa 15217-0675 * metlay@netcom.com (who else...) Yup, that's the one. Mind you, I was only marginally overage myself back then ('68? When _did_ I last hear that piece? This list has already made me drag "In the Wake of Poseidon" down from the attic, now I'm going to have to mount a search for a CD of Visage...) Chris |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Team Metlay's BANDWIDTH is now out on Compact Disc! Email me for details... Can any fellow-europeans advise as to the best way to send Mike $12? IMOs are overpriced, IMHO. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 15:23:01 EDT From: wbf@ALUXPO.ATT.COM Subject: Old Age Sean Jepson: > >Seriously, I'd like to mention side two of the Yellow Submarine > >soundtrack album. George Martin really hit the mark for me with that > >one. I think I was 14 when I got that record. Years later, I finally > >Bill Fox > > Hell, I was not even born then. :-) And I probably have socks, ties, and underwear older than you, too, not just LPs! Hell, some of my guitars are older than you! Ouch!!!! Seems like we just went through this thread on Analog Heaven.... Bill ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 May 1993 18:34:45 -0500 From: Arne Claassen ISE Subject: Spot that analog... Considering the listing of Faves I just read through, this might be a little bit off the beaten path, but hey. If anyone out there is familiar with the album "Welcome to my Dream" by MC900ft. Jesus, i'm looking for some info. He seems to be using some sort of classic analog organ in most tracks and most notably in "Falling Elevators" and "The City Sleeps". Is that a trademark sound of a particular analog, or is it pretty much a generic analog sound that is being used. I've heard it a million times, but don't know if there is a common name for that type of instrument. Thanks, -Arne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 May 1993 01:03:46 +0300 From: Argiris Kranidiotis-UNA Subject: SUM: FM Resynthesis. Hi ! I watch all this discussion about the automated FM resynthesis of samples and I have some questions... Lets start... Jeff wrote: > The graphs which accompany the article show that Mr. Horner is getting some > very good matches of samples and with only one or two operators. Anybody out ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ What ? One or two operators ? What kind of sample you can match with one operator...? Shall I guess that Mr. Horner's samples were only pure sine waves :-) Are we missing something ? Quinn wrote: > How about this--instead of putting an SY77 in the loop, > do the FM synthesis in software, get the right algorithm ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > and parameters, [...] This is a good idea but , has anyone managed to produce an *exact* software model of the SY77 FM synthesis ? And when I say "exact" I mean it , because my experience shows to me that FM synthesis is quite unstable i.e.: Small errors produce *very* differend sounds... I think that Yamaha itself is the only one that can really help producing a software model of the FM synthesis that is used in its synths ( Am I a real optimist ? :-) ). Jeff wrote: > Exactly! Mr. Horner established (I don't have the paper here at work) a > rating system to match the distance between the sample's spectrum (fft) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > and the FM patch's specturm. Very , very interesting... That means that Mr. Horner actually established a kind of "psycho-acoustical" norm between two waves. You know,there are many sounds that have different spectrums and sound identical to the human ear. That was the main obstacle of another guy trying to do the same thing (FM resynthesis). If that norm behaves well , I think that is a great step forward. Jeff wrote: > Anybody out there with a fast computer and FFT capability and an SY77? > My computer (Amiga 1000) is no way fast enough to make this feasible ;-( > ... just annoyingly interesting... I think that speed is not a real problem... Personally,I have no problem to leave my computer ( a 40MHz '030-based Amiga ) open for a whole day (...maybe two) instead of getting a real good sound for my SY77... Of course , if I need to to leave it work for a month...then speed it's a REAL problem :-) BTW: Jeff , did you actually tried to test that algorithm in your computer ? There was a similar discussion to the Yamaha-Synth mailing list a couple of months ago with apparently no results... Let's clear things up a bit : ************************************************************************* * T I M E F O R T H E Q U E S T I O N O F T H E Y E A R * ************************************************************************* ######################################################################### # # # -Has anyone , anywhere managed to make (on a real synth) a single # # # # FM sound similar to a given sample [ No pure sine waves please... ;-) ] # # # # using any kind of algorithm on his computer ? # # # ######################################################################### If yes, It would be nice if we could hear it too... So please , post a couple of sounds. [ Forgiv mai bad inglis 8-) ] Greetings, ........................................................................ . . . // . . Argiris A. Kranidiotis // . . University of Athens // akra@leon.nrcps.ariadne-t.gr // . . Informatics Departement // akra@zeus.di.uoa.ariadne-t.gr // . . ________________________// ______________________________// . . ________________________/ ______________________________/ . ........................................................................ ------------------------------ End of the EMUSIC-L Digest ******************************